Transcripts For MSNBC Morning Joe 20240707 : comparemela.com

message to could-be candidates, particularly women, as she gears up for a tough midterm election season. today, president biden is ready to announce his plan to lower consumer prices. we'll take a look at what he's expected to say and how the markets are responding. there's also a remarkable story in this morning's "washington post" that details the lengths former president trump's chief of staff mark meadows took to keep trump in power after joe biden won the electoral college. we'll dig into that new reporting. we're also following the latest from ukraine and the new assessment from the pentagon on why the russian military is still not making much progress. >> they're a third grade army. >> there's that. plus, french president emmanuel macron dashes ukraine's hopes of an expedited path into the eu, while also proposing a, quote, new european community that ukraine could join. >> you know, he should -- if he's uncomfortable with zelenskyy coming to eu meetings, i guarantee you, every other member of the eu would be fine with macron staying in paris and sending an alternative, an alternate. i don't know what he thinks he is proving here, but whatever it is, he needs to stop right now. >> we'll dig into it. also, former defense secretary under donald trump, mark esper will be our guest today. it is now his turn to share how he steered trump from some of his wildest ideas, from wanting to launch missiles into mexico to a plan to meet with the taliban at camp david. we'll also speak live with former attorney general eric holder later this hour. he once thought indicting a former president was a bad idea, but given what has come out about january 6th, holder now believes prosecutors may have no choice. and this portrait of marilyn monroe, painted by andy warhol, is now the most expensive work of american art ever sold. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 10th. with us, we have the host of "way too early" and white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. and u.s. natural editor at the "financial times," ed luce. good to have you both on board this morning. >> great to have you all here. ed, i want to talk to you about a very british scandal at some other point. >> oh. >> mika and i -- >> that's a show. >> -- got through both seasons. hugh grant, and, of course, claire foy, of course, extraordinary actors. so many great actors in those series. but, instead, we'll stick with the mundane and talk about, well, i think something that sort of paralleled an old "peanuts" halloween special. when you had linus always waiting for the great pumpkin to arise from the pumpkin patch on this special day. you had to wait all year, and it was always a letdown. of course, the international observer wasn't thinking about linus yesterday when we heard of victory day. everybody had been talking about victory day. what's vladimir putin going to do? oh, my god, is he going to launch a missile? is he going to expand the war? is he going to actually declare -- and nothing happened, ed. he looked a bit morose, certainly more than a little bloated. it seemed to be a really somber affair yesterday. sort of had to be for many russians watching, those whose smart tvs weren't getting hacked, it had to be a concerning day because there was nothing looking victorious about this may the 9th. >> i think there has been so much buildup, you know, of so many people giving so much to hype an event to such a degree in advance, for there to be such little outcome. i mean, this wasn't -- it wasn't exactly an admission of defeat by putin, but if you watched his body language, if you consider the fact that the flight pass was canceled, allegedly because of bad weather, the traditional jets flying over red square was canceled even though the weather was perfect, then there was that extra question raised. is putin paranoid about his security on this traditional celebration day? you know, i think that the expectation that he was going to do two things, which is, declare, officially, a war on ukraine. remember, this is still a special military operation, a. then, b, launch a national mobilization. in other words, a conscription of russians to replenish the many who are willing lost, wounded, and withdrawn from ukraine. both of those didn't happen. what did happen was zelenskyy, as, you know, has become his habit, had this brilliant duelling video, his own address from kyiv yesterday. tough guy in t-shirt, walking down the street, complete contrast to putin's soviet style peering over at the troops parading on red square. then you have here in washington, d.c., the signing by president biden of the ukraine democracy defense lend-lease act. so yesterday was a pretty good day to take the temperature of a war that continues to go, i think, catastrophically for russia. >> catastrophically. ed, you'll remember the legendary european footballer, johan croy, whose famous saying was, if you can't win, for god's sake, don't lose. i think the question right now is, with quite many grievous consequences attached, is how does vladimir putin avoid losing, or at least looking like he is losing to his own people? >> well, this is really difficult because the ukrainians are now saying that their original war aim was to prevent the russians from expanding from their pre-february 24th geographic holdings in the east of the country, in the donbas. they're now talking, with growing confidence, of actually expelling russia from those provinces, or as much of those provinces as they can, and recapturing their full access to the black sea. so -- and talk of giving crimea, of recognizing russia's sovereignty over crimea is now being dropped. so the more ambitious the ukrainians get, the more desperate for russia it looks. i have to say, a week or two ago, we were, i think, taking putin's nuclear threats more seriously. right now, i would touch wood if it were within reach, right now, it doesn't seem like that kind of desperate doubling down is in the pipeline. there's been no movement of actual warheads, no fixing of them to missiles. no signs on the ground that that kind of desperate gamble is being considered. so i don't know the answer to your question, joe. i don't know what not defeat looks like. >> well, ed, by the way, you've got wood over your right and left shoulder, so feel free to tap that. >> oh. >> while throwing salt over my left shoulder. jonathan lemire, we'll get to you in a second. but if you can't win, for god's sake don't lose, our boston red sox did not lose last night because they did not play. brilliant strategy by the boston baseball team. mika? >> maybe vladimir should try that. to what ed was saying, they had this major parade. you saw the pictures. yet, the russian troops continue to struggle in ukraine, particularly the air force. according to a senior defense official, russian war planes have failed to establish air superiority over ukraine, which continues to fly its own fighter jets. a pentagon assessment reveals the russians haven't made any significant progress on the ground. partly due to low morale among troops. the report found that middle-ranking officers at various levels are, quote, refusing to obey orders from their commanders. the report also reveals russian forces continue to struggle in the eastern donbas region, facing stiff resistance from ukrainians. and the victory day parade for vladimir putin was reportedly interrupted yesterday by hackers, who tried to convey an anti-war message to the russian people. they got it to them. according to the "washington post," text reading "the blood of thousands of ukrainians and hundreds of murdered children is on your hands." it appeared on russian smart tv during putin's celebratory day. another message reportedly read, quote, tv and the authorities are lying. no to war. the russian equivalence of youtube and google also say that they were affected. so the messaging was happening inside russia. >> yeah. >> right during this parade. >> have a good day. jonathan lemire, things going bad in the air. things going badly on the ground. things going badly on smart tvs. things going badly for youtube. i mean, it really is, in every area of this war, obviously, and economically, vladimir putin having a miserable time of it. the question is, what's the white house strategy moving forward? how do they channel this into, eventually, a peace settlement that will help the united states and the rest of europe get in and rebuild ukraine? >> yeah, even the smart tvs turning against putin's war effort. you hate to see it. >> you hate to see that. >> the white house, certainly, as we reported, didn't believe putin could escalate the war on victory day. there was no way to do so. officials i spoke to yesterday took note of his rather subdued appearance there in red square. i think there are a couple things at play here. as the white house tries to keep their foot on the gas to help ukraine, to make sure russia can't revive any part of their assault here. as ed mentioned, the president signed that lend-lease act yesterday. also, importantly, yesterday the president announced his support for decoupling this massive ukraine aid package from the covid relief funds. we can set aside the wisdom of delaying covid relief funds at a time when cases are surging again and the white house says there could be 100 million new cases by fall. but to the least, this is to expedite this process. house democrats even adding to the amount of money they want to send to ukraine to continue to help them with military equipment, humanitarian aid, and begin that rebuilding process. but there's something else here that white house is starting to slowly talk about behind closed doors for a few days. now, we had the president say out loud yesterday, what happens next? president biden at a fundraiser outside of d.c. last night talked about the state of the war. i'll quote this now. he said that putin is a very calculating man, and the problem the president now worries about is that the russian leader, quote, doesn't have a way out right now. and i'm trying to figure out what we do about that. this is that idea that is the perplexing problem of what is the off-ramp here? what is the way they can get putin to call off this assault without, of course, givingvicto. we know the ukrainians aren't inclined to give an inch of territory. this is the question, how to get putin to stop. what sort of off-ramp, way out can you give him? >> yeah, it's been this question for weeks now when it became clear russia wasn't going to have an easy time with ukraine. i think, you know, the common school of thought was, when the invasion began, the russians would do a lot better than they are. now, there is no answer to how they get out of this, given how poorly they are fairing against the ukrainians, and given how strong the ukrainian resolve is, the passion to keep their land, their country, their growing democracy. then there's the ban on russian oil. the european union made progress in talks with hungary to support the proposed ban on russian oil. that's according to a european commission president who paid a surprise visit to budapest yesterday for in-person talks with prime minister viktor orban. the visit comes a week after the eu proposed the oil ban against russia for its invasion of ukraine. hungary and slovakia refuse to support the package due to their heavy reliance on russian oil. the eu needs all member nations to agree on the measure, but some diplomats say it'd include exceptions for the two countries. von der leyen noted more work is needed to strengthen regional cooperation on oil infrastructure. >> ed luce, help me understand why we consider orban an ally. a man who has declared war against western democracy, liberal democracy. proudly said to his people he thought it was possible to build an illiberal state, an autocratic state within the eu. >> yeah, this dates back a while. when angela merkel was germany's leader, she had an opportunity to expel viktor orban's party from the broader coalition of european center right parties, of which her christian democrats were a part, and she didn't. i think one of the reasons that she appeased and soft pedaled orban was very similar to why germany, at least until recently, until this war, has been doing the same with russia. which is, there is big business in hungary. a lot of german companies have operations in hungary. it is part of its interior factory of eastern europe. it is economically, therefore, very important to germany. he used that to increasingly thumb his nose at and undermine the principles on which the european union is based. he's broken the spirit of it with his illiberal democracy. very, very fundamentally and without consequences. if there were ever going to be consequences, if the europeans were ever going to show they were more than just a talking club, that would be now. of course, the same applies to nato. which i think is absurd at this point, that hungary is a member of nato. but there is no mechanism, or at least none that's ever been used, to get a country out of nato. perhaps now would be a good time to be developing that mechanism. orban is an anti-nato country within nato. >> yup, that is for sure. >> anti-nato, anti-eu, and, of course, he gets the trump right in america that worship him by simply saying nasty -- well, waving around a cross, pretending that he is this man who is going to save christianity in europe while he attacks george soros, attacks the judiciary, attack immigrants, creates boogie men who don't even exist in hungary, and they call for it. he is anti-nato. he is against western values. he is against western liberalism. he is against the press. this guy shouldn't be in nato and shouldn't be in the eu. >> yeah. i think as these relationships strengthen and these organizations strengthen, they have to look really, really clearly at who the members are. make sure they're all on the same page. >> by the way, i want to make sure, i want to make sure i stack this up correctly here. like, sorros is his boogyman. >> mm-hmm. >> anne applebaum talks about this. the muss lim muslims are, you k going in and destroying hungarian culture. well, as anne applebaum points out in "twilight of democracy," it's a problem that doesn't even exist there. so he creates these falsehoods. he claims to be this great protector of christianity, and you actually have rubes on the trump right that are flocking to hungary, supporting this guy. people that used to write for conservative journals who are now working over there, making money over there off of orban. they're doing it because this guy, this guy is the great defender of christian europe? what a joke. >> that's a problem. >> he is illiberal. he is attacking the courts. he is attacking the press there. he is attacking just the most basic ideas of western democracy. and he has been exposed, just like his hero putin has been exposed, just like -- let's face it -- if you look at donald trump's quotes about putin through the years and even in this war, just like donald trump has been exposed by the war. the biden administration will temporarily lift trump-era tariffs on ukrainian steel. in a written statement yesterday, the commerce secretary said ukraine must be able to export its steel to keep the economy afloat. the trump administration imposed a 25% tariff on steel and a 10% tariff on aluminum on several countries in 2018. president biden is expected to deliver remarks on inflation today and lay out his plan to lower costs nationwide. according to a white house official, biden will also focus on republican plans, including one from senator rick scott, which democrats say will hike taxes on 75 million americans. let's bring in cnbc's dominic chu. first of all, how are the futures looking this morning? >> mika, right now they're in the green. wall street is waking up kind of to a reprieve, if you want to call it that this morning. the question is how long it'll last after traders and investors just yesterday witnessed the other big drop in the market. it is the third straight day of declines yesterday. it is basically shaving 7% off the value of the s&p during a three-day span. the tech-heavier nasdaq lost a tenth of its value, again, in just three days. now, for certain key parts of the market, it was the lowest level in over a year. there are, of course, lots of reasons for that sharp change in sentiment over the last several days, weeks, and, arguably, months now. markets have, in the past, shaken off things like geo political tensions, fierce economic slowdowns and other risks. the difference now, of course, is the fed. the campaign really america's central bank has to wage against inflationary threats, the biggest in a generation. the levers of the federal reserve and chairman powell can control are the great policies in america. the amount of cash there is in the financial system. of course, in the past, the fed kept interest rates low and lots of cash in the system. this time, it has to raise interest rates to remove cash from the economy in order to keep that cash from chasing fewer goods and services. that, of course, leads to inflation. the result is a market that has to grapple with higher rates and what it means for a possible economic slowdown, but also what stocks should be valued at in a world where you can get increasingly higher risk-free returns from u.s. government bonds. that valuation concern, guys, hit tech and tech-related stocks the hardest. the biggest companies in america, the tech ones, guys, lost over $1 trillion in value in just three days' time. to put that kind of -- put some numbers around it, apple lost around $220 billion. tesla is down about $200 billion. microsoft shed $190 billion. amazon has lost $173 billion. in just three days. but it is not just tech, of course. it's been broad based. banks, industrials, even energy stocks took a big hit yesterday, everyone as oil prices stay high and gasoline prices hit record levels again. joe and mika, the idea here is the markets are finally having to grapple with this notion that inflation could be persistent and the central bank has to fight it. that's the bigger evil at this point, guys. >> yeah. i remember back in '75, speaking of inflation, a bit younger gerald ford, his campaign people would send around buttons that would say, "whip inflation now, win." what so many presidents found out, jimmy carter after him, it is hard for a president to do anything about inflation, other than appoint a chairman that joked it off with, like, 20% interest rates. the question is, biden is going out today and will talk about doing things to bring down prices. it is just really hard for this president, or any president, to do that, until the fed gets on top of inflation and batters it down, isn't it? >> it's not just that. you're right, this is isn't something a president can tackle on their own. this isn't about one policymaker. this is figuring out a national structure by which you can tackle the rising prices. there has been a debate in wall street for years now, maybe going all the way back to the great financial crisis. this notion of easy monetary policy, making sure that the economy stays afloat and stays upward moving by keeping massive amounts of cash in the system. now, it has worked for about, you know, 12 or so years at this point, but many argue that the fed has been caught behind the curve this time around because of things maybe that were outside of their control, right? prices were on the rise. there was no doubt about it going into this year. then when you have a massive geopolitical situation like russian gasoline and oil supplies coming off the market and everything else, that almost, again, if you'll forgive the pun, throws gasoline on the inflation fire. even with a lack of it out there. this is going to be a situation where the central bank has to address whether or not this type of policy is going to put us into a recession, possibly, and whether or not a small recession could be worth it if it dampens consumer inflationary levels. >> well, it's been easy money. we've had easy money for 20 years. >> for a long time. >> i left congress in 2001. we actually had a budget surplus in that time. since then, massive deficits. we've had, like you said, fed has given us easy monetary policy. you know, it's so fascinating. jonathan lemire, i remember after 2008, everybody was kick kicking alan greenspan. oh, easy money. we had two years of that. how could greenspan do that to us? we continued to do it. while writing the article, well, we have to get out of this by having more easy, free money. higher deficits. higher debt. we have spent the last 20 years with the most reckless, not just monetary policy, but fiscal policy. nobody spent more money, nobody had higher deficits, nobody had higher debt than donald trump and the republicans. or george w. bush and the republicans. they both broke records when they were in power. >> yeah, extraordinary amount of spending from the trump administration. of course, republicans at the time silent about it. then once the democrat comes into the white house, as we see time and again, they start growing deeply concerned. this white house has made efforts to bring down the deficit some, but, obviously, there's a lot at play here. the pandemic, of course, the driving force, and now the war in ukraine, as well. >> yeah. >> sending prices skyrocketing. as far as from the president today, we're going to hear largely a contrast. part of a recent theme from the west wing, trying to suggest, go on the offensive and say, look, the republican policies are only going to make things worse. they're going to focus on senator rick scott, in particular, and his plans, which they say would raise taxes on many middle class americans, and suggest that this contrast here is to the white house's benefit. hopefully supply a playbook for democrats going into this fall. they, of course, know with inflation this high, they face some significant economic head winds ahead of the midterms. >> well, yeah. of course, the white house is saying rick scott is going to do that. in their defense, rick scott said he is going to do that. he doesn't think the working class are doing their fair share paying taxes. he thinks they need to pay more taxes. ed luce, finally, we talk so much about our economy and inflation and what it is doing here. compare inflation in the united states to britain and across europe. is this something that's plaguing all western countries right now? >> yeah, it's a situation across the western world and, indeed, across the world. the russian war is part of this, but you have to bring food and energy prices long predating february 24th. that's chucked fuel on the fire, but it is not the cause of it. the chinese covid situation and their lockdowns and their snarl ing chinese products is a bigger factor. that's not going away any time soon. i should stress, joe, in answer to your question, inflation is a little bit worse in the united states than in the european union. britain is about as bad as america. it is a little bit worse here because the fed really did keep interest rates at zero for too long. they are behind the path here. it is going to probably take higher interest rates than they otherwise would have had to catch up, which is not going to be good for biden's midterm election prospects. >> money for nothing. >> ed luce, thank you for being on this morning. cnbc's dom chu, thank you, as well. still ahead on "morning joe," former secretary of defense mark esper joins us, as we're learning more about the bizarre diplomatic ideas he said former president trump floated at the white house. and later this hour, we have attorney general eric holder. we'll talk with him about his new position on indicting former president trump. what happened on january 6th? plus, we'll get more updates from on the ground in ukraine from former ukrainian president petro poroshenko. also ahead, abortion rights supporters take their frustrations to the neighborhood of another supreme court justice. while activists are focused on the high court, eugene robinson said mitch mcconnell is the biggest threat to abortion rights in america. gene joins us with his latest column for the "washington post." you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. power e*trade gives you an award-winning mobile app with powerful, easy-to-use tools, and interactive charts to give you an edge. 24/7 support when you need it the most. plus, zero-dollar commissions for online u.s. listed stocks. 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[ applause ] and all the great -- here i am, nancy pelosi, saying this country needs a strong republican party. we do. not a cult. >> well, i need a job that starts at 10:00 a.m., but that's just never going to happen. >> ha, yeah, no. >> america isn't getting a sane republican party back, not for a very, very long time. >> why not? >> look what's happened. dr. oz? i mean, you look at dr. oz in pennsylvania. >> oh, my god. >> here's a guy who just changes positions every 15 minutes. >> crack nut. >> what does donald trump want? he is completely changing positions on just about every issue. you look at jd vance. he goes from hating donald trump to saying, "oh, well, good christians should never support donald trump" to saying "this guy is america's hitler" to giving him this big, old tight embrace, growing the old beard, changing himself up, trying to be a good old boy like he goes to silicon valley. he's like tony bennett, i left my heart in san francisco. you're the best and brightest. everything revolves around you guys. >> it is sad. >> then he decides he wants to go back to ohio, which he left because he didn't want to live in ohio. he wants to go back so he can get power in ohio. the guy that he said you couldn't support if you were a good christian, the guy he said was america's hitler, was the guy he just embraced really tightly so he could win the republican nomination in ohio. america's heartland. i know a lot of you that watch this show think america's heartland is on the upper west side, somewhere between 72nd and 93rd. no, it is in ohio. i mean, that's where jd vance and this new republican party is really expanding day in and day out. but you see it in pennsylvania. you have a perfectly sane, perfectly normal candidate running in the republican primary in pennsylvania. what chance does he have against dr. oz? i mean, this is, seriously, like "back to the future" material. it's just crazy stuff. but there is no sane republican party. i don't think there is going to be a sane republican party until trumpism is crushed, destroyed, and swept away and all these candidates lose. maybe that happens this year. i don't think so. >> joining us now, we have pulitzer prize-winning columnist and associate editor of the "post," eugene robinson. you have a piece, "mitch mcconnell is the biggest threat to abortion rights in america." you right, in part, this. the history of the united states has been a saga of difficult, halting progress in expanding the rights protected by the constitution to citizens other than white men who own property, those to whom we, the people, originally applied. roe is so important because it protects women's rights over their own bodies. if republicans were to take control of congress and the white house, they would, indeed, have a push to ban abortion coast to coast. remember what mcconnell did when he had power. don't give it to him again. and don't believe mcconnell and the justices when they ask you to trust them and not your lying eyes. so, gene, this is not just about abortion, which i think we all know this, but we can't say it enough. this goes to contraception and many other rights. >> yes. >> but a full ban on abortion is what you're putting on mitch mcconnell ultimately. >> well, look, why are we where we are today? we are contemplating this absurd and frightening draft opinion by justice alito because of what mitch mcconnell did. because he, you know -- the seat that should have gone on the supreme court that should have gone to merrick garland instead went to neil gorsuch. because mitch mcconnell wouldn't give merrick garland a hearing. if it had gone to garland, we would have contemplating an opinion by chief justice roberts that upheld the mississippi 15-week ban but that kept roe in place. upheld roe as the law of the land. the basic right to reproductive choice. if mcconnell, again, had not gone against his too-soon-before-the-election rule he applied to merrick garland and, instead, rushed through the confirmation of amy coney barrett just eight days before the presidential election that donald trump lost, we would be contemplating a draft opinion that probably did not uphold the mississippi law. then again, upheld roe v. wade. that's not where we are. it's because of the way mitch mcconnell ran the senate. i mean, mitch mcconnell has been the single individual most responsible for the threat, i'd say the dire, apparently fatal threat that roe v. wade is under right now. and the threat that american women face from this looming decision. >> yeah. you know, jonathan lemire, there have been real concerns that this does go beyond abortion. often, whenever you're talking about issues, social issues, people can be hysterical on all sides, but anybody that's gone to law school, anybody that's studying constitutional law does understand that alito's distinction was a distinction without a difference when he said, "whoa, whoa, hey, listen, we're only talking about abortion. we're not talking about contraceptive rights. we're not talking about loving and the right for interracial marriage. we're not talking about marriage equality. no, no, none of those have anything to do with abortion." so this is a precedent without precedent. which, of course, makes absolutely no sense. the same logic, that same right to privacy, the same construct that used the 14th amendment to give roe, to give griswold, to give loving these rights, they all come from the same constitutional framework. so the fact that alito goes, "oh, don't worry about this. trust me. we're only talking about abortion because this has to do with abortion," no. if you pull on that thread on roe, you're pulling on the thread of griswold, of loving, of marriage equality, of all of these rights to privacy that the court has found over the past 50, 60, 70 years that was contained in the constitution. >> yeah. i don't know why any american or any voter or any democrat should believe them. why do they think this would stop here? stop here with this particular decision. why wouldn't they think it'd be an infringement on other rights, a restriction, removal of other rights. why believe it'd just stop an abortion? gene, this is an animating issue, democrats believe. this could be the thing that maybe changes the conversation heading into this november. democrats facing an uphill climb. what's your early read of the land if roe v. wade does, indeed, go away? is this something that could get democrats out there and change what we have been led to believe the outcome will be this fall? >> well, it certainly could, jonathan. i mean, look, it's very difficult to make predictions about american politics these days, which way things will go. i have always been skeptical of predictions that democrats are inevitably in for the huge losses in the fall. because, you know, if a week is an eternity in politics, that's what we used to say 20 years ago. now, you know, a week is how many eternities? things change so rapidly. but i think this is a bombshell. it really is. the republican party will be the dog that, indeed, caught the school bus. we'll have to figure out how to defend this, for example. what are they going to say? are they going to say, you know, don't worry, we're going to somehow protect choice? they can't say that. are they going to say, just buck up and bear it? are they going to support this ruling? and if they are smart, they're going to attack. so, yes, this could be a major factor in the midterms. >> for sure. we're going to talk about that and more. coming up, though, eric holder says the supreme court was broken long before the leak of that draft opinion on roe v. wade. the former u.s. attorney general joins us next to explain. we'll be right back. nicorette knows, quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like: try hypnosis... or... quit cold turkey. kidding me?! instead, start small. with nicorette. which can lead to something big. start stopping with nicorette >> the day you get your clearchoice dental implants makes every day... a "let's dig in" day... >> mm. >> ...a "chow down" day... a "take a big bite" day... a "perfectly delicious" day... >> mm. 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[ in unison ] that's powerful. couldn't have said it better myself. and with three times the bandwidth, the gaming never has to end. slaying is our business. and business is good. unbeatable internet from xfinity. made to do anything so you can do anything. investigations into the big lie and the insurrection. a deep dive from the "washington post" lays out the lengths meadows took after biden won the electoral college to keep trump in power. in doing so, meadows repeatedly violated legal guidance against trying to influence the justice department, according to a majority staff report of the senate judiciary committee. according to congressional reports and interviews with former white house officials, meadows granted those pedaling theories about a stolen election direct access to the oval office and personally connected some with the president. he pressed the justice department to investigate spurious and de-bunked claims, including a bizarre theory that an italian -- >> mark, you're so tiresome. mark! mark, what is wrong with you? >> you know, he ought to go work at -- >> he knows better. what is wrong with you, mark meadows. good god. >> any who. >> you don't believe a dude from italy had jewish space lasers and, like, eight children or whatever. seriously? is this guy, like, inside the white house surfing chinese religious cult websites? i mean, it is insanity, mika. >> yes, it is. >> pure insanity. >> yes, it is. the allegation a top justice official called pure insanity. >> it's more than insanity. >> according to emails released by federal investigators. at the same time, meadows is being investigated for voter fraud. >> what, you can't do that now either if you're a republican? >> north carolina officials say they're checking why he allegedly registered to vote using an address at a mobile home he never lived in. both a spokeswoman for trump and mark meadows' attorney did not response to the "washington post" request for comment. the "post" also couldn't reach meadows directly. he didn't feel like talking. >> he was in that trailer on top of a mountain. >> no, it's just that when you start talking to him, he just starts crying. >> going over the top of it because he loves donald trump so much. >> gets emotional. >> all right. >> former attorney general under president obama eric holder joins us now. >> i'm bet he is sorry. >> along with "new york times" best-selling author, "our unfinished march." a victory, a crisis, a plan. sam is with us, as well, for the conversation. great to have you both. attorney general eric holder, i'd like to first ask you about your evolving views on a president or a former president being indicted. >> well, as i've described institutionalist. it is hard to imagine one administration looking back at the other administration and holding the head responsible. it is inconsistent with the way we conducted the transfer of power. that's something that happens in other countries. yet, as the evidence has come out about what the former president did, those around him did, including mark meadows, there is the need for some degree of accountability. i think, importantly, you know, when you talk about the criminal law, you're always trying to think about deterrence, as well. not only what happened in the past but how you want to prevent things like this from happening in the future. and to let the administration simply off the hook, given all they've done, all i think we're going to hear that they did, i think it's something that is very dangerous for our nation. so that's kind of what's pushed me towards the notion of doing something that, in the past, if you asked me, i'd say would be unthinkable. that is to potentially indict a former president. >> by the way, for those that don't remember, your administration that you're a part of with president obama was actually asked to bring charges against george w. bush for war crimes. the obama administration, you, the position was very clear, and we said so at the time, it was the right position to take. you don't want incoming presidents going after former presidents. it sets a horrible precedent. i said, if you do this, when barack obama leaves, who knows? >> right. >> maybe people come after him because of drone strikes or something else. so you were right there. but i must say, in this case, where you actually have something like january 6th, you have a riot at the united states capitol where a president of the united states is sitting, watching television, will not call it off when he has the power to call it off. >> in an attempt to overthrow the election. >> yeah, overthrow and turn back the election. i must ask, mr. attorney general, i know this puts you in a terrible position, but don't you think that merrick garland is having far too conservative, far too cautious when looking at a lot of these cases? >> i think merrick and the justice department are taking a lot of criticism, and we don't have a basis to know what they're doing behind the scenes. he gave a significant speech earlier in the year where he said they'd hold everybody accountable at any level. that is a very significant phrase, at any level. so i think we have to wait and see what it is they ultimately do. do they announce indictments, and how far up do those indictments go? or do they decide not to bring indictments? at that point, i think you can make a determination and level criticism, or say they did the right things. the reality is going to be they're going to get slammed either way. you bring an indictment, and people will say you're operating from a political atmosphere. if you don't bring indictments, they'll say, well, you're letting them off the hook. in some ways, all they have to do is the right thing. look at the evidence. apply the law. make a determination as to what is appropriate. >> yeah. sam, talk about the book that you and the attorney general have written, that charted the course of voting rights. very bloody history, where we are now and where we need to go as a country. >> yeah. so, you know, the history of america, very rarely have there ever been moments when people truly had the right to vote. it is basically between 1965 and the shelby county decision. we won't name the other party in the decision at the time, that decimated the voting rights act. ever since, we've seen republicans across the country try to suppress the vote. we've also seen them take advantage of institutions that are inherently undemocratic. i mean, you look at the roe v. wade draft decision from this week. there's a lot of different factors that went into it. but if you think about how that happens, it happens because america, in so many ways, is not a democracy. five of the nine supreme court justices were appointed by presidents who ascended to the office after losing the popular vote. advise and consent, which is the senate's responsibility. i mean, you look at the senate, there's 50 democrats, 50 republicans. democrats won 40 million more votes for the same number of seats. then you look at the legislatures, the state legislatures that actually pass these bills restricting women's rights. they're extremely gerrymandered. if you had state legislators that reflected the will of the people, bills like that would never become law in the first place. and so when you look at the crises in our country across all kinds of issues, from reproductive rights to gun violence to the climate, you can address each of them on their own, but they're only going to really fix this, you'll bring about the change we need if you make america a democracy finally. that's what this book is about. it is about how to study our history to give us clear instruction for how to move forward and make america a true democracy again. >> you know, we have a lot of proposals in there that are pretty far reaching. there are a lot of them. i think people's initial reaction is, well, we're never going to be able to pull all of this off. we're never going to be able to do this. i think one of the things we've done is to look back at our history and identify people who, looking at america as flawed as it was back in the past, and found ways to make us better. i think it is up to this generation to commit itself again, as others have done, to come up with ways in which we perfect our union. there are structural issues we need to deal with, but it is not as if this is the first time this nation has faced these kinds of problems. >> eric, this is gene robinson. congratulations on the book. so is that the solution, though? is that the plan, that we go back to the future? you remember, you know what the campaign, the crusade to achieve voting rights in the '50s and '60s entailed. it involved people power. it involved, you know, people in the streets. selma to montgomery. it was a time of great turmoil, great mobilization of huge numbers of people. it was a long, hard, bitter and bloody struggle. is that what we're in store for now? >> i don't know about bloody, but it's certainly going to -- we certainly need to involve the american people in this fight. we tend to underestimate the power that we have as so-called ordinary citizens. yet, as we look back, and as we demonstrate in the book, it is ordinary citizens who have been the ones who have been the start of the change that made this nation greater. sam talked about some of the people we discovered through a lot of the history, the history searching that he did. but it is the people, some of whom are well-known to us, many whose names have been forgotten. yeah, it'll take the people to get us back to the place where we need to be. we can't rely on politicians to do this. it is going to take citizen action. >> it's precisely because that history is so bloody and so difficult, and people, despite the obstacles, fought for the right to vote, that we have a duty to do the same for future generations of americans. >> the new book is "our unfinished march." the violent past and imperilled future of the vote. a history, a crisis, a plan. former u.s. attorney general eric holder and "new york times" best-selling author sam cobbleman, thank you both for being on with us this morning. it is exactly the top of the hour now. the white house says president biden has a plan to tackle inflation. later today, he is expected to stack his ideas up against republicans. plus, the latest from ukraine. russian missiles hit the black seaport city of odesa. at one point, forcing the european council president who was visiting into a bomb shelter. the former president of ukraine, poroshenko, will join us later this morning. former defense secretary under donald trump, mark esper will be our guest in a few minutes. he shares his experience inside the trump administration that convinced him trump should be nowhere near a position of public service. >> it'll be interesting. >> ever. >> it'll be an interesting discussion. jonathan lemire, it is interesting. i remember during the trump administration saying that everybody was going to line up. they were going to write their books about how i won the war, how i stopped donald trump from doing even worse things. certainly, former secretary of defense has come under criticism in this book. but i must say, i'm of two minds. yes, maybe you should have spoken out a little bit earlier, but as you know, these are great -- these are things we can file away and look at. it really gives us a much better perspective about what happened, especially in the final year. so many things of what mark esper wrote here, it is going to be studied for many years to come by historians, along with the other books that were written, as they try to figure out what safeguards to put in place when you have somebody who is as out of control as donald trump in a position of power where he doesn't want to give up the presidency. >> yeah. no shortage of books from trump administration officials. former defense secretary esper today. we had william barr. kellyanne conway, jared kushner, they have books coming out. i do think, though, yes, instructive and valuable for the future. i think also a case can be made that there are moments -- every time a trump official has come out with a book or later revealed in an interview about something that happened, there is the pushback. why did you say this now? why did you stay? if you were opposed to what was happening in the administration, why did you stay? those on the political side don't have an idea. someone like an esper or others, this was always the version we heard from former defense secretary mattis, former national security adviser mcmaster, they felt an obligation to stay to the country. it was their duty to put up some guardrails. they were the ones willing to take the criticism. hey, how could you work for this guy? they felt like, well, if we weren't here, things, as bad as they are now, things would be much worse. it is a different story for those trying to achieve their political games. certainly in the national security sphere, that's the argument they've made. interesting to see what the defense secretary has to say in a few minutes. >> it is a good argument. you interviewed deborah birx, mika, and she got secured while she was still in the white house. but, you know, i looked at her even at that time and said, she's in an extraordinarily difficult position. because, yes, she's working for a guy who is denying science. but who follows her? sure enough, when she left, we started dealing with scott atlas, who is just absolutely heinous. gave donald trump everything he wanted to hear. was a clown. you could say the same about dan coats. after dan coats left, the clowns that followed him were absolutely frightening. the fact that they were involved in our intelligence community, the head of our intelligence community, is frightening. yeah, it's not as simple as a lot of people on twitter like to say it is. >> no, it is definitely not. and i agree with you on that. it's just when you hear these stories -- and, you know, forget the -- i think you're right. they make money on a book, they make money on a book. it is good to have the record for history. i agree with you on that, joe. but i will say, when you hear story after story of what appears to be people who worked directly under trump feeling like he was making decisions that were crazy, let's put it that way. >> right. >> or saying things that were crazy, there's got to have been a better way. that's what we -- >> what do you mean? >> there has to be a better way to deal with a circle around a president where everybody in the circle is concerned the president is not well or is making crazy decisions. >> right. >> or has other ambitions rather than duty toward country. let's put it that way. let's put it kindly. i just want to know, was that ever discussed? did people ever come together and say, this guy is a whack job and wants to bomb mexico. what do we do? >> they did from the start, actually. they did from the start. it's one of the things that secretary esper talked about in the book. he got together with general milley, and they did their best. >> they had their four noes. >> to set up their guardrails. for the most part, it works. just like general mattis and general kelly. at the very beginning, had a sort of mutually assured destruction pact, where they were going to lock arms and stay together in there and try to push back on the worst of all ideas. >> yeah. >> yeah, i know general kelly had ideas that were offensive to some people. mark esper may have done things. again, we're talking, though, about difference between a situation that's not good but stable and a situation that -- where things absolutely fall through the floor. >> yeah. >> no easy decisions made in there for the people that went into the trump administration. >> all right. we'll be looking forward to having that conversation this morning. a lot of really great questions to discuss with former defense secretary esper. let's start in ukraine. the southern port city of odesa once again came under intense russian attack yesterday. a barrage of rockets hit a shopping mall and a warehouse, killing one person and injuring five others. local officials say at least seven missiles were fired from the russian-controlled crimea region. nbc news has not been able to independently verify that claim. the attack also forced the european council president, who was visiting the city at the time, to take shelter. this is the second deadly strike on the crucial port city in as many days. at least ten missiles hit odesa on sunday, destroying several residential buildings as well as an airport runway. in mariupol, while all civilians have been evacuated from the steel plant, many more remain in the war-torn city. the head of the donetsk region yesterday said there are people in the besieged seaside port. adding, quote, all of them are, in fact, hostages of russia. he also called mariupol the most painful point of the region. the last of the women and children who were stranded alongside ukrainian fighters inside the factory were evacuated over the weekend and taken to safety. it's unclear how many more civilians remain in the city which has witnessed some of the worst devastation of the entire war. but amid those continued attacks, russia's troops continue to struggle in ukraine, particularly the air force. according to a senior defense official, russian war planes have failed to establish air superiority over ukraine, which continues to fly its own fighter jets. a pentagon assessment also reveals the russians have not made any significant progress on the ground. partly due to low morale among troops. the report found that middle-ranking officers at various levels are, quote, refusing to obey orders from their commanders. if you can imagine that. the report also reveals russian forces continue to struggle in the eastern donbas region, facing stiff resistance from the ukrainians. joining us now, pentagon correspondent for the "new york times," helene cooper, and author and presidential historian doris kearns goodwin joins us this morning. good to have you both. >> great to have you both here. let's talk about victory day yesterday. usually quite a celebration for the russians. helene, yesterday, there really wasn't much to celebrate for vladimir putin. you could see it across his face, the ceremony seemed -- i mean, he seemed morose, and the ceremonies were subdued at best. what's the pentagon's assessment of where vladimir putin is the day after victory day? >> hi, joe. hi, mika. thanks for having me. well, it certainly wasn't much of a victory day. you know, in the weeks leading up to may 9th, everybody here in the u.s. was worried that he was planning something huge. they knew this was an important day for him, an important landmark for him. to be able to say he's done something in this more than two-month war effort now. the reality is it's been a dismal war effort for him. all he's done is kill a whole lot of civilians and flatten buildings. his military has made very little progress for all of the money he spent on this and all of the fire power that they've unleashed. one of the things people noticed yesterday, in particular, is the lack of war planes in this whole victory day parade. there weren't a lot of them. usually, in these parades, with russia, they're unveiling all of their air force. the russian air force has been abysmal so far in this war. they've been playing this sort of cut and run maneuver, where they have been risk averse. they stick to russian territory. they dart into ukraine, drop a bomb, then dart back over the border. that's because, as you mentioned, as mika mentioned earlier, they still haven't established any kind of air superiority over ukraine. so they know if they stay for any length of time in the air space over ukraine, they're going to, you know -- they run a risk of getting shot down by stingers or by any of the other anti-aircraft weaponry that the ukrainians have deployed to great effect over the russian air force. so you saw in that victory day parade -- what you did not see there were any examples of russian air power. that's because they slunk back to the border and haven't performed that well. >> before we jump to doris, helene, the reports of russian soldiers at all levels, or many levels, some are turning around and not taking orders, what does that signify? >> it signifies an army in disa ray. it signifies a lack of trust and a breakdown in the chain of command. the chain of command is very important, but in any kind of military maneuver, the reason it is important, the reason why it works in the united states military versus the russian military, is because we also in the u.s. empower our non-commission officers. we tell them, go take that hill over there. this is how you should do it. if what we're telling you doesn't work, do it this way. use your own better judgment. they then go off and do it. russia doesn't do that. what russia says is, follow this, take the hill this way, and keep doing it this way, even if it doesn't work. that's why pentagon officials believe you're seeing a lot of refusal to follow orders. >> doris kearns goodwin, i'd love to ask you about volodymyr zelenskyy in contrast to vladimir putin on victory day. but also any parallels to history. he was out in front, putting out videos of himself, producing his own, quite frankly, movie about the story of ukraine. he appears to be fighting effectively on many fronts. would you agree with that? >> oh, without a question. i mean, he's understood the importance of the technology of the time, and he's made a story for ukraine. it's not simply the past that he is fighting for, which is putin's problem. all he seems to be doing is wanting a greater russia from catherine the great or peter the great. what does that provide for the russian people today, for the future? whereas, every time you hear zelenskyy talk, what does he say? i mean, it's so extraordinarily like churchill. he takes his people into the war, armed by the power of his words. he talks ability what the future will be like. yes, we're going through difficult times right now, but we will win. we will rebuild these cities. we will sing again. there is a certain pitch perfect ps. he talked ammo, not a way out of the country, when people were offering him a way out. what churchill was able to do, what zelenskyy can do is give morale to the people. when churchill was wandering around after the bombing, just as zelenskyy makes himself available in the city, so you see him every day, and there was a store that had been shattered by a bomb the night before. no windows. he puts on the story, we're open as usual. that's how morale is reformed. it's the magic of leadership. we saw it with churchill, with fdr in the depression, and now with zelenskyy. i have a daughter-in-law still in ukraine. her grandfather is there. she's only been here six years, married to my son. we follow this day by day. she was so proud of her country, even living here. proud of her parents and zelenskyy. it is an extraordinary thing to watch. it's the magic of leadership. >> it really is. >> it is the magic of leadership. there's a great kennedy quote, of course, about churchill, that he mobilized the english language and sent into battle. you see with zelenskyy someone who is infusing his country with the same confidence. i think one of the most remarkable numbers i saw coming out during the battle of britain, reading about the battle of britain, seeing that even at the low point, only 3% of the british citizens believed it was possible that they could lose the war. because churchill gave them such confidence. doris, as a historian, i want you to juxtapose that with what we saw in russia yesterday. a country that always celebrates may the 9th as one of its most sacred days. 25 million soviet citizens died pushing out a nazi invader. now, it's the ukrainians who are pushing out a russian invader. how strange, that on may the 9th, we see the juxtaposition. it is now the russians. it is now putin who has become, who has become zelenskyy's hitler. >> i mean, it really is heartbreaking, when you think there was a story for russia. the extraordinary courage, the numbers of millions who died during world war ii. russia eventually was able to help enormously in the cause of defeating the nazis. now, to turn that story around and claim there are nazis in ukraine, it's a story that can't work. it is so far from the truth. it's beginning to get into russian people. we're hearing about hacking now. i mean, i know when people we know have families in russia who are ukrainian, and those people seem not to believe what's going on. but after a while, the truth is going to come out. that's what we have to hope, that, somehow, you cannot tell a story that is there. the soldiers will be coming back. the generals are being killed. the real story is coming out. in the end, they cannot win with that false story. >> helene, the much-anticipated russian assault in the donbas is off to a sluggish start. slowed down by ukrainians' famed muddy season. also poor leadership and equipment. of the many things that vladimir putin didn't do yesterday, one of them was to call up for more troops. give us the latest sense there from the pentagon, just in terms of the issue of russian manpower. we've talked about morale. we've talked about poor leadership. their generals get picked off on a daily basis. at a certain point, are they going to have enough men to forge forward with this battle, even a limited one in the donbas? >> jonathan, that's such a good question. it's such a big issue. right now, the pentagon believes that russia is using basically all it ready combat power in ukraine. the russian military is huge, but you have to differentiate between, you know, combat-ready troops and the people who are back at home doing logistics or doing other sorts of jobs. they have put it out on the line now in ukraine, and so putin -- if this war drags on for much longer and if he continues to enrich troops at the rate he has been, the belief in the biden administration is that he is eventually going to have to go back to his people for popular mobilization, to call up more conscripts. now, he's already said that -- announced he's calling up for conscripts a few weeks ago. he didn't do the full on popular mobilization that he could do. he didn't announce that yesterday. that's a very politically risky move for him because that's basically saying to the russian people, you know that war that i told you was a special military operation? well, you know, actually, this is a full out war. you know, we're not getting the job done. we're going to need, you know, your sons and -- need your sons to go in and help. that's a big political risk for him. right now, the belief is that he still has quite a lot of popular support. going to national mobilization, it's a risk. as doris said, this is going back to the mothers of russia, whose sons are being lost on the line, and saying, "we need more of them." >> pentagon correspondent for the "new york times," helene cooper, thank you very much. now to abortion rights. senate majority leader chuck schumer is moving forward with a vote on a bill that would make the right to an abortion federal law. but tomorrow's vote is expected to fail. democrats do not have the 60 votes needed to defeat a republican filibuster. senator schumer called out his colleagues yesterday on the senate floor. >> this week, the senate will be confronted with a simple but urgent question. do women in this country have a basic right to make their own choices when it comes to seeking an abortion? yes or no. every american is going to see where every senator stands on protecting one of the most important rights a woman has regarding her own body. i want to be clear, this week's vote is not an abstract exercise. this is as real and as high stakes as it gets. and senate republicans will no longer be able to hide from the horror they've unleashed upon women in america. >> so, joe, i have a question for you about that. is it as high stakes as it gets? two republicans who have supported abortion rights say they will vote against the bill tomorrow. susan collins of maine says the bill doesn't provide an exemption for health care providers who do not want to perform abortions because of religious objections. and senator lisa murkowski of alaska told reporters yesterday she's a no. saying, quote, nothing is going to change. the vote is going to be the same. democrats might not even have all 50 votes in their block. senator joe manchin of west virginia was the only democrat to vote against the previous bill back in february. yesterday, he told reporters he is going to wait until the caucus to decide. i'm not sure what the big drama is here. >> well -- >> because republicans who are going to vote the way they're going to vote are doing it because they're constituents will be happy about that. >> they consider it to be one of the great achievements in many of their legislative careers. this is clear. so, no, this is not a gotcha moment where the democrats are going to get the republicans and force them to go on the record. you'll have republicans running to put their name on the record here. i mentioned yesterday, i wish, wish -- it's just a wish and probably never would be possible, to see if there is a possibility, at the very least, to get lisa murkowski and susan collins on a bipartisan bill. so if the republicans predictably voted down that bill, they'd be voting down a bipartisan bill. but that, of course, is not going to happen. doris, i guess the question is, for you, let's talk about where we are in history. again, not to be melodramatic here, but somebody that can read the basic language of a case, it's very simple to understand that this goes far beyond overturning a 50-year precedent. it is, as i said earlier, pulling on a thread that tied cases like roe and griswold, contraceptive rights, and lubbing, right for interracial marriage, and the right for marriage equality, all of these cases where the court found a right to privacy where it had not existed before. used the 14th amendment as the foundation. well, all of those cases are now fair game. whether alito says this is a precedent without a precedent or not. with that in mind, where are we now at this time? >> all of those cases, you're right, tied together means that we are moving backward in time. you know, we have the famous quote from martin luther king. the arc of moral justice is long, but the arc of moral universe is long but bends toward justice. it feels really long and doesn't feel like it is bending toward justice. i think king would be the first to admit, it doesn't happen naturally. we've had to fight all throw our history to get the arc moving toward justice. it was the anti-slaianti-slavert that got emancipation. the women's suffrage movement got the right to women's vote. the gay rights movement got the equality of marriage opportunity. the point is we have to fight again. what are the movements for voting? the fundamental thing is to vote. vote at your state legislatures. vote in the local areas. worrying about the right to vote for these last months, now it's come up. this is the tipping point. women's rights are at issue right now. when this whole series of rights are at issue. the only answer is fighting through the right to vote. it is the fundamental vote, without which all the other have no meaning. i think that's where we're at right now. it shouldn't be a moment of despair. i guess the part of me that thinks history can give us hope and history can give us perspective tells us that, instead of despair, it means, yes, now is the time to galvanize to vote. the vote is out there. the majority feel the way many people do about all those issues you mentioned. there's a majority that want those issues to be out there. issues of justice. now is the time to get up and out of our seats and do what we need to. not to be spectators. the government is us. we can fight at every level, and that's what we need to do now. no despair, just hope. >> pulitzer prize-winning author and presidential historian doris kearns goodwin. thank you very, very much. still ahead on "morning joe," former secretary of defense mark esper joins us next. his new book is bringing to light some of the outrageous ideas suggested by former president donald trump. also ahead, a party of hope versus a party of fear. that's the new assessment from the former president of the dnc. howard dean. we'll play for you his new comments and why he believes if it comes down to hope against fear, democrats have an advantage going forward. and we'll have more out of ukraine. former ukrainian president petro poroshenko is our guest next hour. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. this dad and daughter were driving when they got a crack in their windshield. 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>> great questions, and let me answer each. first of all, i wouldn't be the first secretary of defense to write a book. every one of my predecessors has. the reason i wrote it, which is probably the same reason they did, is i thought it was important to history and for the american people to understand the ins and outs of what happened during this tumultuous time in our nation's history. the trump administration had its successes, right? abraham accords, lower taxes, operation warp speed. it had its failures, letdowns. i wanted to tell people that story. now, i know this question has come up. you know, why didn't i speak out at the time? why didn't i resign? i address this in the first few pages of the book. it was the existential question, i think, for me and many others who serve, why did you go in? why did you stay? why didn't you resign? in my view, it came down to this. at the end of the day, i was serving my country. i wasn't serving the president or the party or a philosophy. i was serving the country. i thought i was better off in the job than walking away. believe you me, it would have saved me at a lot of grief and heart ache if i resigned on the spot. i didn't know who would come in after me. would they act on these outlandish ideas the president and others were proposing? that's why i stayed. >> i asked the audience, would you rather have birx or atlas? coates or grenell. these are questions that answer themselves. i want to talk about the darker days in the trump administration, june 1st, 2020. it's where you and general milley went over with donald trump, over to the church when he held up the bible in that most peculiar, awkward way. you apologized for it. what i'd love you to tell the audience, what i'm fascinated by is your discussions with general milley after that. because general milley, of course, was one of the greatest things in the trump administration. what general milley said to everybody in active services. hey, i screwed up, guys. i did something i shouldn't. put out a strong statement first, then he had the incredible video address, saying he never should have walked over there. i thought it was a great moment. i'd love to know, though, how did you get from where you were in the pictures to the point where you were apologizing, and general milley was apologizing. did you immediately get together and go, my god, what just happened? >> the day began, you know, pretty tough with the meeting in the oval office that morning. it was one thing after another. we go from the oval office where the president is on a tirade for 20 minutes, suggesting shooting protesters. we go straight from there with a meeting with the governors. after the phone call with the governors, we rush back to the pentagon. i'm scrambling around that afternoon to get national guard into the city to forestall the deployment of active duty military. then we're on the streets later that day, lafayette park, the mistake i for sure made, and i think general milley thinks he did, as well. it is not until later that night. oddly enough, as i describe in the book, we take a long walk along the reflecting pool toward the lincoln memorial. we have a chance to talk and assess what is going on. i think it is when he and i get a sense of what happened and the mistakes we made, the errors in what was happening. that's when i go back and, within a couple hours later, give instructions for me to put out a memo the next day explaining to the department of defense our role, as an apolitical institution, supporting american's rights to protest peacefully, to protest our government and our obligation under the constitution to serve the country. that kicks off a series of things that happens. june 3rd, i stand before the podium at the pentagon and say that i will not support the insurrection act. >> are you concerned, mr. secretary, our armed forces have become too political, even if they're not expressing it openly? maybe because the era of social media, it's a lot easier for them to go on instagram or facebook or tiktok and say something about the commander in chief. whether the commander in chief be a republican or democrat. >> dod is a strong institution. there is a professional ethos that is engrained to all members of the service. look, i began my time in the military at the age of 18 at west point. for me, it was duty, honor, country. those values are engrained in our service members. look, we'll have the moments where people, you know, get close to the line, but i think it will endure. it will endure as an apolitical institution. we need to preserve that. it is unique in the world. i'm confident they'll do the right thing. it is quite resilient. you know, when we talk about should i resign or not resign, this is one of the things i talked about, when i'd reach out to predecessors from both parties and ask, should i stay or should i go? they advised me to please stay. because one of the things was protecting the institution, as well. these institutions are absolutely critical to the health of our democracy. >> right. >> let me ask you about the democracy. at what point did your fear -- did you have the greatest fear that those institutiinstitution our republic, madisonian democracy was in peril? >> obviously, the greatest was january 6th, 2021, when the capitol was under siege due to the insurrection. but i was out of office by two months then. but i think going back during my tenure, and, look, president trump and i had our differences from the early days and it expanded from there, but clearly, june 1st, when the president suggested using active duty troops to be deployed in the streets of the united states and the capitol and shoot protesters. it was shocking. it's really where it caused me to rethink how i engaged, and it is where general milley and i came up with the four nos. that was our strategy the succeeding six months. how do we protect the institution? how do we make sure there are no strategic retreats, unnecessary wars? those things were very important. i say that, and people will say, you're not loyal to the president. my view, i was loyal to my oath of office. my role was to advise the president and help shape better outcomes. i thought we did that in the administration. >> so back to the existential question, if i could. you thought you were better in the job, that you could help keep the country safe, using your words. you were worried he could act on some of these outlandish ideas. it was a control mechanism. you and your counterparts had these four nos that provided some guardrails that you could go by. i am just curious, was there a plan if he became uncontrollable, if he broke through all four nos, if he wanted to do something absolutely crazy and you couldn't stop him? what was the plan, and who did you talk to about it with? >> well, we never reached that point, thank goodness, at least during my tenure. i saw a lot of -- >> we're talking about someone who wanted to, like, bomb mexico or shoot protesters. i mean, you must have thought in your mind, what if i can't control this situation. >> right. >> so what was the plan? >> yeah, so i talk about that in the book, particularly my concerns about the use of the military the day after the election. what i might have done or would have done if that had got to that point. i have this very private meeting with the head of the national guard and general milley. i describe my concerns later in the book. i say how i needed to be the circuit breaker in case something like that happened. my plan would have been, first of all, to go to the president and confront him and ask, what is this order? where is it coming from? explain it to me. try to back him down if i could. if i couldn't, look, i would have to go to leaders on capitol hill. it would be a next step. or go public with it. the last thing would be to resign on the spot. so i describe this in the book, about how i thought through this process and what i'd have to do if the circuit breakers were tripped and i was a unable to forestall something really bad from happening. >> would you describe the job that you and your counterparts had as sort of containing him? >> well, i don't want to overstate this. look, i think we accomplished a lot of great things at the pentagon. i had a wonderful group of civilians and service members to work with. we advanced stuff like the national defense strategy and a pivot toward china. modernizing the military. we did a lot of good things. for the most part, my job was unaffected by the white house. i was able to do my duty. but there were moments like this when either the president -- and in some ways, more often, those around him would propose these, you know, outlandish ideas. that's really what we had to keep an eye on. i talk about this, particularly in the fall when people were proposing ideas with regard to venezuela, iran, or other places. i had to be conscious of what was being proposed. what it meant and what my duty was to the country. >> so one of your colleagues in the trump cabinet, former attorney general william barr, wrote a book that was also critical of the former president. when asked if trump were to run again in 2024, he said he'd vote for him again. if donald trump runs again in 2024, would you vote for him again? >> no. >> why not? >> i'll tell you why. any elected official needs to put country over self. they need to have a certain level of integrity and principle. they need to be able to reach across the aisle and bring people together and unite the country. look, donald trump doesn't meet those marks for me. we need a new generation of republican leaders who will advance those core items for any republican. stronger military, lower taxes, deregulation, conservative judges, you name it. we need people who can do it while growing the republican base and uniting the country. the biggest threat we face today, i'm afraid, is extreme partisanship on both sides of the aisle, not allowing us to address major issues, whether it is china or the budget, you name it. we have to solve this problem, and we need a leader that can do that. >> okay. well, despite your criticisms, donald trump very well may run again in 2024. we know a signature issue of his is immigration. republican have been -- while you were in your position, the president suggested or steven miller suggested sending 250,000 troops, a quarter of a million troops which would be the largest mobiization of u.s. troops within the borders since the civil war to the border of mexico to secure it. tell us what happened there, and how did he get talked out of it? >> first thing is first. i believe in border security. you don't have a sovereign country if you can't control who is coming in and out of your country. what is happening today is horrible in terms of what is happening on the border. we need a border barrier. i supported the wall. but that said, look, 250,000 troops to the border is absurd, right. to do what? for what reason? think about the impact it would have had on the military readiness and our relationship with mexico. i was fine sending some number of troops to the border. i think i deployed up to 5,000. joe biden has done the same. the key though is to solve the border problem is you have to give the department of homeland security the money, the authority, the officers it needs to get the job done. we need new immigration laws. this is one of the things i just spoke about in terms of uniting the country, bringing republicans and democrats together. you have to solve the problem by addressing immigration law in the first place. they're not doing that. >> mr. secretary, gene robinson with the "washington post" is with us and has a question for you now. >> secretary, congratulations. in these crazy moments, the president suggested bombing mexico, something equally insane. did you ever go to vice president pence? what sort of role did he play, if any, in moderating or mediating or stopping any of this craziness? >> well, look, when ideas like this would come up from either the president or his advisers around him, my approach was how i've approached other bosses and colleagues. understand what they were trying to do and provide alternatives that made more sense and accomplished the mission better. i was successful most times in terms of pushing back and kind of winning the argument, if you will. that's why i felt, frankly, it was better for me to stay. i was able to be successful. keep in mind, if i hadn't pushed back on this idea of 250,000 troops, i wouldn't have been there to push back on mexico. if i wasn't there to push back on mexico, would i have been there to push back on shooting protesters on june 1st? we can go through the series of things that, not only was i able to stop but was able to do. ban confederate flags from the military bases. advance the national defense strategy. i found vice president pence to be a listening board. he was helpful and supportive to me. i don't know what his relationship was with the president. he kept his cards close to his chest. i talk a little bit about that in the book. >> mr. secretary, i want to talk policy right now on an issue that is sort of a pet peeve of mine. that was our withdrawal from syria, the 2,500, 3,000, 3,500 men and women, special ops people, heros who were doing extraordinary jobs. believed in their mission. david ignatius talked about this a great deal. not only defending -- helping our kurdish allies but also beating isis, pushing back iran, pushing back the russians, pushing back the turks, pushing back assad. i've never seen so many people with such a small footprint do so much. yet, they were removed from syria because the president wanted them removed from syria. can you give us some background on why we would have left that place when our men and women in uniform were doing such extraordinary, good work? actually, stopping putin and the syrians and others from engaging in their worst instincts. >> well, we're going back a few years now, so my facts may be a little shaky. but my recollection is when i came into office in june 2019, as acting, we had about 1,000 troops in syria. mostly in the south and in the middle of the country. this is when the president proposed, again, to withdraw troops. because turkey was on the border, pushing against trying to go after insurgents they described as the pkk and others. president trump wanted to withdraw the troops under threat of the turkish invasion. i think what we did, for force protection measures and at the recommendation of the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, we withdrew 25, 50 special forces folks who were in the path of the turkish army. at the end of the day, though, i think we still -- that was how far we backed up. the turks occupied this control zone, if you will. i talk a little bit about this in the book. but we were able to keep 800 troops in the region to do operations you spoke about, joe. kind of keep an eye on the iranians, push back on the syrians and protect the western border of iraq, if you will. we didn't go down to zero during my tenure. i think we leveled off around 800, 700, something like that. >> then let's talk about putin and the failures of the russian military. nobody saw it coming. nobody, nobody envisioned such a dismal performance by the russian armed forces. looking back on your time there, tell me, what do you think we all got so wrong about the strength, the relative strength of the russian army? >> look, the pentagon was always focused on the russian army. we identified china and russia as the greatest threats we faced. we prepared, modernized, and prepared to deal with them. i was in lviv in 2018 as secretary of the army, checking in on training. by the way, i give president trump credit for releasing lethal aid to the ukrainians. but it's been a story of surprises. the russian military seems far less capable than what we expected, and the ukrainian army and people far more resilient and tough and capable than we we need to continue to prepare and deal with the russians and chinese. as you recall, there was a two-page memo why mark esper should be fired. one i was focused on russia and dealing with the russian threat. we have to deal with russia unfortunately the next few years but china remains our greatest strategic adversary out there and we can't lose focus on that. >> no doubt about that. did you ever give any insights on the president's relationship with vladimir putin, well, you don't exactly have to say this, but he did have a soft spot in his heart for vladimir putin. did you ever figure out why? >> no, i don't. we were focused owe pentagon, doing what we needed to do to bolster our allies. i spent a lot of time talking to allies to defend their country, defend their alliance and sovereign space. >> it had to be concerning to you and general milley and our allies this was a guy who didn't seem instinctively to support nato like, god, the way we had throughout my entire life at least and stand up against autocrats. obviously it caused you concern, if not professionally than personally, right? >> i spoke up about my support from nato even before i was confirmed. when i went to brussels in june of 2018. sieved in nato in the early '90s. i believe it's the greatest alliance in history and we should bolster it. but the allies need to live up to their equipment and they shouldn't be supporting nord stream 2. many supporters supported trump's policies but they went too far. in this case going too far was threatening to withdraw from the alliance. i was worried it would give putin an angle to get in there. we have to continue to grow and bolster alliances both in europe and in asia. >> former secretary of defense mark esper, thank you so much for being with us and thank you for your service. >> the new book is "a sacred oath: memoirs of a second during extraordinary times." coming up, we'll speak with a former russian broadcaster about the role russian propaganda continues to play in its war with ukraine. and how a hunt for a escaped inmate came to a deadly end. and russian voters today face a choice of bipartisanship or trumpism in a messy primary election. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. - i'm norm. - i'm szasz. 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[ laughter ] the cdc announced over the weekend that it's investigating a recent coronavirus outbreak on a carnival cruise ship. that might be the shortest investigation ever conducted. it's a cruise ship, you say? i think we figured out you're problem. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, may 10th, 8:00 on the east coast. covid cases are up 50% in the last two weeks. ahead we will tell you what officials are saying in some of the hardest-hit states. also this morning, fears of inflation continue to spook the markets. stocks took another beating yesterday but futures are looking up this morning, ahead of remarks from the president on the issue of inflation. cnbc's andrew russ sorkin will join us in our third hour of "morning joe." and president emmanuel macron calls for a, quote, new european political committee. >> you know, no thank you, mr. president. you did this before the invasion and it didn't work. we're good with nato. we're good with the eu. if you're not, then you can seek other alternatives but don't try to slow roll ukraine becoming a member to the eu. >> that's exactly what he's doing. he's saying it could take years to get ukraine into the eu, and that's why he would set up something else. we'll discuss. >> it's really unbelievable. >> also, we'll discuss the latest developments on the battlefield with former ukrainian president petro poroshenko when he joins us in a moment. but, first, nbc's erin mclachlan reports from ukraine on the claims from officials there russia is using new sophisticated weapons in its assault on the key port city odesa. >> reporter: this morning as russian's victory day signaled his intent to push on brutal assaults on ukraine, they rained down on odesa at a shopping mall. russia's new evasive hypersonic missiles were used to carry out some of the attacks. this as the united states drug deeper into the conflict. on monday president biden signeding the lend lease act into law, aimed at streamlining military support for ukraine, and passing support for another $40 billion for the country. a handful of americans have returned to the capital kyiv. >> what message does your return send to the kremlin? >> i hope it sends the message that the united states is here, we're behind ukraine and we're working hard as we've been for the past 2 1/2 months to give ukraine everything it needs to fight the war against russia. >> reporter: this has the war rages on across the east and the south, taking a heavy toll on ukrainian forces and civilians. this injured man tells us he was pulling people from homes. >> what did you see in. >> i saw shelling of houses. they don't look at houses, military or civilian. now the ukrainians are hitting back any way they can. this time from the sky. >> this holds three bombs. >> reporter: three? >> yes. >> reporter: they are dropping large reconnaissance, helping the military take on a large convoy throughout the capital. without this drone, could you have won the battle for kyiv? >> it's hard to tell, he said, but these drones have saved a lot of lives. >> all right, french president emmanuel macron is throwing cold water on ukraine's hopes of quickly joining the european union. in the address to the european parliament yesterday the newly re-elected macron pushed back against the possibility ukraine could join the group in the near future, instead saying the membership process could likely take decades. despite calling for a, quote, stronger and more sovereign europe, macron argued that expediting ukraine's membership would lower the standards of the bloc. to join the eu, a country's candidacy needs to be approved by all 27 member states. instead, macron proposed a, quote, new european political community yesterday to include countries with aspirations of joining the eu. but his comments come in direct contrast with those made by the president of the eu's executive branch, who just last month told ukraine's president that the country's application could be approved within weeks. >> ukraine belongs to the european family. we've heard your request loud and clear, and today we're here to give you a first positive answer. we know a lot about each other because we've been working together so intensely over the last years. so it will not be not unusual in a matter of years to form this opinion but in a matter of weeks. >> that is a complete conflict. yesterday the eu leader said she spoke with president volodymyr zelenskyy to discuss, quote, eu's support and ukraine's european pathway. for his part, volodymyr zelenskyy is giving no indication his push to join the eu is slowing down. he said yesterday he expected to receive a positive response next month regarding his country's application. >> it really is quite remarkable. >> what's going on? >> it is quite remarkable. look at that man, that country -- >> uh-huh. >> -- zelenskyy and the ukrainians, they're fighting for their freedom, they're fighting for the west, they're fighting for nato, they're fighting for western democracy. they have been putting everything on the line, and you actually had yesterday the president of france saying allowing zelenskyy's ukraine into the eu would lower the standards of the eu. how deeply offensive. by the way, an eu that has hungary as a member. >> and in nato as well. >> here's a guy for some unknown reason, as anne applebaum asked yesterday, why the hell is hungary still in nato? and why in the hell is macron running around talking about how we could take years for the ukrainians to become a member of the eu? is he really still playing that stupid game he played before the war where he thought that he would be the great negotiator with vladimir putin? because that didn't work very well. it didn't work well then. it's not working well now. the president of the eu sent a very clear message to the ukrainians, jonathan lemire, and that is they will expedite membership into the eu, a boost from volodymyr zelenskyy, a boost for the ukrainian people, who are fighting for their lives, fighting for freedom, fighting for their democracy, fighting for western democracy. what gives and god help me if our white house follows macron's position. any comment from the white house on this? >> first of all, i will note in the video of zelenskyy walking alone down the street in kyiv, far more powerful than what we saw putin surrounded by thousands of soldiers in moscow. putin seemed far more lonely than zelenskyy. previously they have been supportive of ukraine's ability to enter the eu. we heard from the eu president just yesterday reiterating this should be an accelerate the timetable to allow entry into their union. there are two notes here on what macron said. first of all, he also suggested -- and he has, as you mentioned, fashioned himself as the putin whisperer here, go-between between the west and moscow. he said the u.s., including the u.s. and european countries and nato, shouldn't overly punish russia for this because we have to work with russia in the world going forward after the war. in terms of his puzzling claim with the eu though, some observers think he was being perhaps too clever by half and this was a subtle request to london, the united kingdom no longer a member of the eu and creating some other group can be created that could include the uk, ukraine, a few other countries to tie them to europe without being part of the eu since, of course, united kingdom voted out of the eu a few years ago. that may have been what he was trying to do but it ruffled other feathers in kyiv and other people, and it's clear zelenskyy himself and his people want to be part of the eu. >> it certainly should have ruffled fathers. feathers. and a few things, there is no need for a new coalition in europe. europe, apparently, is doing right well with the eu, doing quite well with nato right now. nato about to expand. most likely will have finland and sweden as new members. if you look at where nato is expanding to, it has extraordinary reach now. vladimir putin has done the west and champions of western democracies, done them a wonderful favor and we should actually send him flowers perhaps victory day next year for helping us expand nato in a way it would have never been expanded before this war began. this whole idea we have to somehow create a new european -- a new western community is just absolute insanity. by the way, britain doesn't want to be coupled with europe. they had that vote. they have gone their own way. by the way, guess what? judging by the past couple of months, europe's doing just fine. >> i just think you can make the existing organizations stronger, maybe minus hungary and add in ukraine. it's pretty simple. >> that's a pretty massive trade up. >> vladimir putin's victory parade was reportedly interrupted yesterday by hackers who tried to convey an anti-war message to the russian people. according to "the washington post," text reading the blood of thousands of ukrainians and hundreds of murdered children is on your hands "appeared on putin's smart tv during the day. and other reports that tv and the authorities are lying. no to war, the russian equivalence of youtube and google said they were affected. meanwhile back in february, barely a week after moscow's invasion of ukraine, russian authorities shut down several independent news outlets in the country, following the crackdown. our next guest announced he's leaving russia after the government blocked his media organization. in a telegram message he said it was illegal adding, quote, the personal safety of some of us is now under threat. and tikhon dzyadko joins us now, russian television presenter and media and now serves as chief editor of tv reign, a private station. my question is, where are you able to get your information now? are you able to reach russian people? >> first of all, thank you for having me here. we were forced to shut down the operation of the tv station because it was too dangerous for us and several dozens of our journalists decided to flee the country and now we are reporting from georgia and have our own youtube channels telling people about news about ukraine and we are now discussing the options to newly launch tv rain in europe somewhere. the important thing is our shows on individual youtube channels are being watched, something like 60% of our viewers, are in russia, which means there are still a lot of people eager to get information, and that's the most important thing for us. >> you were able to reach russians, you feel, through these at least youtube at this point but there's a following, you think, inside russia? >> well, yes, that's correct. a lot of russians are watching our tv station but, you know, the situation is interesting because it's the since the beginning of the war, all independent media was blocked in russia and facebook, twitter and instagram. only youtube and telegram are not blocked and they are not blocked yet. i think they will be blocked. but still a lot of russians are using vpn services and some other tools to get through these restrictions, to get through these restrictions made by the russian government to follow the real information. >> so, let me ask you though the appetite for that real information, it's obviously something on a different level. we thought the united states, and some people who willingly go to conspiracy websites be channels that they know will be fed disinformation to reinforce their existing prejudices every day. i think we americans naively believe every russian citizen is a victim of this dis information and if only they had a free open exchange of ideas that they would understand the war in ukraine was a terrible crime against humanity. but it hasn't really played out that way. explain to us what portion of the russian citizenry actually sit and watch state-run tv because it reinforces their views of a greater russia, their views of a powerful russia. their views of their place in history. >> well, no, that's one of the main questions i don't have an answer. the problem is no one knows what do russians actually think. when we look at the polls, we see that 83% of russians supported the war. but, of course, these polls could not be trusted because it's impossible to conduct polls in a authoritarian state or worse. just imagine making a statement in nazi germany in world war ii, for example. so it's not that these are fake. a big group of russian people of russia's society, people who are following state tv's propaganda and who truly believe the united states wants to destroy russia and wants to -- to make a nazi state from ukraine that there is a lot of nazis in ukraine and that ukraine wanted to attack russia and all of these stupid things. but in the same time there was a huge part of the russian population of the russian people who are against the war but they are -- they are just afraid to speak out because it's too dangerous. there is a law adopted by the parliament one month and a half ago which said that if you spread so-called significant information about russian military in ukraine you could face up to 50 years in jail. fake news here even calling the war war and a special military operation. that's why, for example, almost all of the independent journalists left russia because it's impossible to call the white is white, black is white and war a war in russia now. it's just illegal. of course, a lot of people, they are victims of the propaganda but i think some of these people, they want to believe in what this propaganda tells them. >> obviously the ability to access the truth to independent media fuels a lot of protest, that's around the globe, not just in russia. but we saw in the early days of the war some protesters take to the streets. but give us an update as to what we've seen since. that has largely dried up, yes, because of these potential protests? we get the occasional tweet from navalny, who's in prison. but give us an update, if you will, about where the protest movement stands in russia. are people able to speak out at all? >> well, people are not protesting now. the only -- i mean, there's no big protest in russia because the protest at the beginning of the war, they were -- they were attacked by the police and a lot of people were detained and a lot of people were fined for protesting. and now it became more dangerous because if you, for example, go out in the street and you say no to war or the war just has to be stopped, you can face criminal charges because you can be accused of spreading fake news information about russian military. so there is no big process in russia now because, as i said, people are afraid. people are depressed. the psychological moral situation in russia now, i'm no there but i speak to my friends there a lot. people are really depressed because they are living in a country which is having a terrible, terrible war and you could have, as i say, it's not safe to protest against this war. for example, famous russian politician which is well known in the united states, he's now in jail and he faces up to ten years for so-called fake news information about -- about russian military in ukraine. so people are not protesting but i know and we know that a lot, a lot, a lot of people, huge part of russian society is against the war. >> tikhon dzyadko, thank you very much for coming on the show. >> thank you very much. >> tikhon was chief editor of a russian television cham and his content was blocked at the start of the war but he's still working to get the message out. time to look at the morning papers. today reports republicans in the state are amping up their focus on nonpartisan school board contests. new state laws that restrict the teaching of sexual identity and racial history have turned school board meetings into battle grounds in many counties. s do dozens of kovtive contenders are entering the school board races who dissent from governor ron desantis' education policy. let's go to michigan, where "the times" is reporting allegations of unauthorized access and equipment of voting into the state has been expanded to multiple communities. the decision indicates election deniers may have carried out a potentially expansive campaign to breach voting technology in the state in the wake of the 2020 election. in new jersey, "the courier post" reports affordable housing is severely lacking for residents that need it the most. for every 100 families earning extremely low income, the state has only 31 affordable housing available. that's 36 homes per 100 families and one of the worst rates in the northeast region. "the post" points out no state in the country has enough affordable housing and the u.s. would need need additional 7 million homes to meet demand. >> this is such a crisis. it really is. it's across the board. and in new york covid cases are up nearly 10%, even as an upstate omicron surge is now subsiding. the cdc recommends masking in counties labeled high risk. new york currently has 62 high-risk counties. local officials are split on whether to bring back the mask mandate. >> yeah, you don't want to do that. still ahead on "morning joe," it's not just new york seeing a surge in cases. a rising in almost every state as we enter prom and graduation season. but officials say there might be something of a silver lining with the latest wave. we'll explain. plus, the manhunt for a corrections officer and escaped inmate takes a deadly turn. we'll tell you how officers finally caught up with them. and we're keeping an eye on wall street this morning after a massive sell-off to start the trading week. cnbc's andrew russ sorkin takes us inside of what's going on ahead of the opening bell. and how much would you pay for this painting? probably not what it just went for at auction. we'll tell you the record-breaking price tag straight ahead. before we hit the break, two other stories out of ukraine. the journalists of ukraine have been awarded a 2022 pulitzer prize special citation. in a statement, the pulitzer board recognizing ukrainian journalists for, quote, courage and determination of reporting during vladimir putin's propaganda and war in russia. despite bombardment, abductions, occupation and deaths in their ranks, they are doing honor to ukraine and journalists around the world. >> since the war began, ukrainian president zelenskyy routinely ended his nightly address honoring his soldiers. last night it was a fighter with four legs, a bomb-sniffing dog whose name in ukrainian will be ammo. >> this is going to be a netflix special. stay safe. >> he helps seek out mines in the kharkiv area and acts as a mascot. the dog has found more than 200 explosive devices since the war began and is part of a -- critical part of ukraine's wartime messaging, including helping to teach children safety rules in areas with mine threats. we'll be right back. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. okay season 6! aw... this'll take forev—or not. do i just focus on when things don't work, and not appreciate when they do? 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[ snoring ] and, even though it's now over... you can keep watching the hottest shows all year long... ...on netflix... ...prime video... ...starz... ...and hbo max! just say “watchathon” into your voice remote to add a channel or streaming service. welcome back. it's been a tough mix for covid right now. even though people are spending more time outside, they're also gathering in groups a whole lot more. as nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez reports, cases are on the rise once again. >> reporter: with an apparent fifth covid wave starting to grip much of the country, an all-out push for older americans to get their second booster shot. >> we may have to do this for a long time. >> reporter: all but two states and washington, d.c. are now seeing a rise in infections. cases nationwide up 50% in just the last two weeks alone. hospitalizations also up. covid-related deaths are down 12%. a silver lining -- >> if you measure where we were a year ago so many people were hospitalized, on ventilators and in icus and we're not seeing that trend now. >> reporter: governor kathy hochul tested positive when she took an at-home covid test. >> you see those restrictions or has that train already left the station? >> we're in far better places because the restrictions were put in initially because we didn't even have vaccinations. we have so much available to us. >> reporter: among the uncertainty for parents, graduation season. in new york city health officials just lifted the vaccine requirement for public school proms. even as new covid cases among children jumped 69% from two weeks ago. in hawaii, health officials have identified two new clusters. in philadelphia, they're urging seniors to test often. >> we're not asking people to cancel weddings or proms, but it means we want to take care of each other. >> that was nbc's gabe gutierrez reporting. coming up -- you can buy any number of things for a few hundred million dollars. or you can buy one single piece of art by andy warhol. we'll talk about an eye-popping auction yesterday in new york city. 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counselors are for our students today. vote for democrat tony thurmond. he's making our public schools work for all of us. welcome back. what does $195 million buy you? >> three tanks of gas. >> no. an anonymous buyer just smashed the record for highest price ever paid for an american work of art at an auction. nbc's anne thompson reports. >> we require the use of a special pedal. >> reporter: marilyn monroe's image hung over the auction, creating a frenzy of interest from the curious and very wealthy bidders alike. >> and, so, ladies and gentlemen, we come to the american dream warhol sublime. the picture of marilyn monroe. >> reporter: all covering the 40 by 40 inch silkscreen of the picture of marilyn monroe. this morning the painting holds the distinction of bringing the highest price for any american piece of art or any 20th century art at auction. >> it's selling for -- >> reporter: -- a whopping $195 million, just short of the $200 million some thought it could bring. >> close to $200 million. let it sink in. it's quite something. >> reporter: aside from the subject and artist, the work has a lure of its own. it is one of the shot marilyns, so-called because a visitor so warhol's factory in new york city filed a revolver into a stack of four marilyn paintings, including this one, which was not damaged. titled pop age marilyn. previously exhibited in new york, zurich, london and paris. >> there's no other painting that represents this diversity of emotion and just like really capturing what the audience, what people, what we are fascinated by because it's marilyn. >> reporter: 60 years after her death, monroe is having yet another cultural moment. on the met gala carpet last week, kim kardashian wore monroe's dress from 1962 when she sang "happy birthday" to president kennedy. and netflix is running a new documentary, "the mystery of marilyn monroe: the unheard tapes" looking at her life and death. the fascination pushing the price of american art to new heights this morning. >> that was nbc's anne thompson reporting. coming up -- how a messy primary in west virginia is putting trumpism on the ballot. nbc's vaughn hilliard is there and joins us straight ahead when "morning joe" returns. my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪♪ it was time for a nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once monthly add-on treatment for severe eosinophilic asthma that can mean less oral steroids. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala. better hearing leads to a better life. back pain, and fatigue. and that better life... ...starts at miracle-ear. it all begins with the most innovative 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hopeful. we're the party of hope. they're the party of fear and angry and frankly they're the party of pessimism. >> former democratic national committee chairman howard dean with that comparison of democrats and republicans. hope versus fear is playing out within the republican party as well. where today another test of trumpism plays out, this time in west virginia. >> alex moony. alex is in a big race. that is one of the races that they keep saying is moony going to win because mooney is being backed by trump and he has an opponent but i think he's going to do real well. >> you're running against somebody that you should easily. and they better beat her bad other wise they're saying trump has lost it. >> ahead of today's gop house primary in the mountain state. that is where we find nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard outside of a polling center in the home town of mooney's opponent. and yousy it is pitting bipartisanship against trumpism. explain. >> reporter: you know, mika, i was talking to a long time gop party hand here and he said if we looked at this race the old school way, on political paper here, mckinley would run away with this. his family has been a house hold name here for decades. he served in the state legislature in 1980 and his grandpa ran a coal mine and a man called mckinleyville. he voted for the infrastructure deal. and west virginia on paper comes in 50th in the rankings in pretty much every piece of infrastructure category. but yet he's running against alex moony who is backed by the former president. who now isality ex moony? he served in the maryland state house for a decade and moved to west virginia to won for congress and he won and an incumbent congressman but also under investigation by the office of congressional ethics for misuse of campaign dollars here and this is a race where ultimately alex moony is calling on mckinley for also his vote for the bipartisan independent january 6 commission. just four days ago alex moony referred to the insurrection as a protest of a few hundred people. the dynamics that are at play here is something else and that is why this result will be so telling. it is this first incumbent david mckinley who the former president is essentially trying to purge from the party because of his perceived opposition to him. >> vaughn, good morning, it is jonathan lemire. i want to drill down further on moony and mckinley. the incumbent congressman, where did he vote on the president's two impeachment trials and did he vote to certify joe biden's election in 2021? >> reporter: you know, i think if, jonathan, to take this full picture because i think the answer to this is a testament to who david mckinley is. he'll tell you he voted 92% of the time over the four years of trump's administration. he's not a squishy moderate and been a conservative over the decades serving the people of west virginia. but when it came to january 6, he voted to certify the 2020 election results and did he not impeach the former president, but he voted for that bipartisan, independent january 6 commission which didn't pass but he believed there should be a thorough review here. and that is where, if you want to call that bipartisanship, certifying the election results and voting for the january 6 independent commission, go for it here. but david mckinley and the frustration among republicans is that david mckinley was a republican in the state before the republicans here. he was the former gop chair of the west virginia republican party when this place was dominated by democrats. i also want to note, he has the endorsement of not only governor justice but is running tv ads with joe manchin here. i think there is a frustration and to close i want to back to the conversation with a gop party hand who said the old school way of looking at this, mckinley would rub away with it but this is a extent to which voters are following the conspiracies on the internet because you talk to anybody involved in the party, they'll tell you they're voting for david mckinley because he's west virginia through and through. but ultimately they are outnumbered by the number of people who are not involved at the party level but coming to vote because what they have read on the internet. >> vaughn hillyard reporting for us from west virginia. we thank you very much for that report. and next tuesday the focus will shift to pennsylvania where former president trump's endorsement could also play a major role. nbc news correspondent dasha burns has more. >> reporter: in the final countdown to the critical pennsylvania primary, the former president stumped in a rainy muddy fairgrounds. >> we're going to said dr. oz to fight for you in the u.s. senate. >> reporter: but dr. mehmet oz may test the limit of the magic. >> oz, who went to medical school in pennsylvania, decades ago but has lived and been registered to vote in new jersey until last year has faced criticism of his conservative bonafides. the main thing i hear is i know who doctor oz is and he's not from here and i know what he stands for. so what do you say to those voters. >> i want republican and primary voters to be skeptical, kick the tires and ask me hard questions and check out my campaign. >> but loyal trump fans. like melanie patterson and celeste palmera, don't get trump support for oz. >> i have not had one person tell me something favorable. >> we have not had it and we find amazing. >> you haven't met anybody -- >> no. >> they spent three weeks across deep red westmoreland county. >> she's running against oz. >> what do you think of his endorsement of oz? >> i'm kind of surprised. >> unlike j.d. vance in ohio, the latest polls show oz up 2 points after trump's endorsement. still virtually tied with david mccormick, a former hedge fund executive from western pa. and former aides are throwing support behind mccormick. nearly 40% of republican voterers haven't made up their mind. >> his endorsement didn't necessarily seal the deal for you. >> no, i just need to learn more. >> pennsylvania now the biggest trump test yet. >> nbc's dasha burns with that report. we'll be following all of that. it is just about the top of hour now as we begin the fourth hour of "morning joe." and coming up, it is 9:00 on the east coast and 6:00 a.m. out west. time to get up and get ready for work. we've got a lot to get to this hour. president biden is set today to announce his plan to tackle inflation and to lower consumer prices. we'll hear what his plans are when the chair of his council of economic advisers joins us. also ahead, the growing mental health crisis facing american teens and their families. and how the american medical system has failed to keep up. we'll hear from the reporter behind an incredible year-long investigation. and the latest from ukraine as russian forces hammer that besieged steel plant in mariupol and continue to attack the vital port of odesa. russia fired seven missiles into that seaside city this morning killing at least one person and wounded five others. according to ukrainian officials, the missiles hit a shopping center and a warehouse blowing out walls and windows sand reducing most of the structures to a smoking ruin. despite the strikes, the pentagon said there is no imminent threat to odessa from russian ground forces or ships off the coast. intense fighting rages at the steel plant in mariupol. where day after day ukrainian forces manage to hold off the russian assault. the city's mayor said russia continues to hit the plant with heavy weaponry. but that attempts to storm the plants have been unsuccessful so far. and he also said there is about 100 civilians inside despite the fact that russian and ukraine officials have previously said all of them had been evacuated. so that news has changed in the first three hours of our show. yet while russia now has nearly 100,000 troops fighting in the eastern donbas region of ukraine, they have not been able to make any significant progress. that is according to the pentagon. where officials say russia has been hampered by bad weather and logistics issues, which has hurt them throughout the war. "the new york times" points o

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