Transcripts For MSNBC Deadline White House 20240708 : compar

explaining the situation in blunt terms. >> we don't believe they have overcome the logistics problems, the command and control issues, unit cohesion and organization. all the problems are stilt bedevilling the russian military. they're resupplying, refitting to reinforce the forces in the donbas and we can see it happening now. >> an internal conversation is reportedly underway within the biden administration whether or not to send a high level government official to ukraine to show support. politico reports it is likely to be a cabinet member to make the trip rather than the president or vice president but president biden was asked about it this afternoon. >> will you send senior officials to ukraine? >> we are making that decision now. >> joining us is ali arouzi once again live from lviv, ukraine. ali, 24 hours ago exactly former adviser to president zelenskyy said the ship was burning. i saw the images several hours later. he was way ahead of the reporting here stateside. tell me what you understand about the vessel. >> reporter: well look. western official had told nbc news that the russian line that this was a fire was incredible and the ukrainian line that they hit it with a neptune anti-ship missile seemed to make sense and it is a big blow, significant blow to the russians. this is the flagship in the black sea, the control and command was off that ship and now it is having to be towed away. the ukrainians say it may have capsized but the reports seem to say it is towed away and looks bad for the russians. bad for the credibility. it is a big boost for morale for the ukrainians because that very important ship is no longer operational in the black sea. it can't launch attacks and command other boats in the area. it is making the operation more botched. they're not making headway. we heard today in eastern ukraine in the donbas region because of torrential rain the russians can't get the ground armed forces into some sort of momentum to encircle the area. in mariupol, they keep saying we'll take mariupol but for 50 days they have pounded the living daylights out of that city and the ukrainians hole on to it. we heard today that some ukrainian marines were able to get in to mariupol and join that very far right brigade to try to hold off the russians bombing them the whole time. i spoke to a mayor where the railway station hit by the russians and 57 people killed and he said life is really difficult. you hear bombs every day. let's take a listen to what he had to say. >> nobody can say where it is more dangerous. i'm now in the office. nobody can guarantee the rocket won't fly here. we hear it. in the morning and the evening. the bomb. the aircrafts fighters flying. >> reporter: what was very interesting, he said before the war there's an east ukraine, a west ukraine. russian speaking, ukrainians. he said this country is so united together thanks to the invasion. he said he wished it didn't take that invasion but they are more united than ever before. >> reporter: there's a lag but -- go ahead. go ahead. >> reporter: no, no, no. please. >> i was going to say there's so much talk hereby about new and additional and more advanced weapons incoming to ukraine. i wonder if even before they arrive and shipped to the front lines if there's a psychic boost to knowing they're on their way. >> reporter: it's a definite boost. they're not getting the exact things they want and the fighter planes which they say would turn the tide in the battle but the more crimes we have seen the russians commit here the more arms they get from the west and a big boost for them. they keep pushing the russians in areas like mariupol hit so bad. they're not letting them take them with support from the west and that definitely gives them a big morale boost. i spoke to a ukrainian. i said do people like boris johnson. he said yes because he's giving us weapons. just because i know there's a lag i wanted to end this on a really sweet story we heard today. it is so much doom and gloom and you are a dog lover like myself. the foreign minister adopted a dog from mariupol that had been abandoned there. he said i want to give another dog a good dog life. dogs are suffering. animals are suffering in this war, too. he urged all ukrainians to take care of animals and goes to the human spirit of everybody here from the foreign minister down to the teenagers. you saw all these people running away from their homes and so many carrying a dog and a cat. it is very touching to see that even though the homes are destroyed they look after animals and very human. >> yeah. to your point i remember some colleague of richard engle's reporting i think from irpin. people carrying huge dogs over that river where the bridge was blown up and in all the newspaper stories there's a line how many dogs are in the cars from the eastern part of the country to lviv. it is an important reminder that 51 days ago this was a country whose citizens were just figuring out who will walk the dog and take the kids to school. is normal a distant memory for ukrainians, ali? >> reporter: it is unfortunately. you know? because you talk to so many of them. they say i want to go home. i want my kid to play with the toys and take the dog for a walk. but they're not living there. in the hotel people displaced, the hotel changed the rules. they can bring the pets here. that is nice but not normal and weird to live in a hotel room with a dog than go out into the backyard and play with the kids and the toys. they kind of get used to it but it is never going to be normal for them. >> ali, in ukraine, the eyes and aefrs on the ground, thank you. joining the coverage, retired four-star general barry mccaffrey and congressman moulton is here. i want to come back to the russian flagship and show you both something that our colleague admiral starvides said. watch. >> your first year in annapolis the thing they teach you is never let the flagship blow up. the russian army has shown us over last six weeks incompetent and badly led and like the navy said, hold my beer. let me show you what we can do. >> brutal but fair, general mccaffrey? >> yeah. i think so. by the way, i'm following this all night and convinced the ukrainians did hit it with a very clever attack with neptune missiles, with a diversion deception operation. looks like it hadn't gone down yet unfortunately. but it did go back to the russian fleet 80 miles offshore and not just a massive attack on civilians and cruise missiles. it was also the air defense regionally for the russians fighting in the south so god bless them. this is a magnificent effort by the ukrainians. hugely supported by the u.s. u.s., european command, air force four star is the supreme allied commander for nato and also the ucomm commander and much of the effort according to ukraine is 15 nations including a ukrainian general and staff hustling stuff across that border through multimodal transportation. the jury's out on how this battle will turn out but the ukrainians are superb. >> congressman, how much does the professionalism and 50 days of success weigh in to dlik deliberations and policy making what to give the ukrainians in terms of weapons? >> well, it has a massive effect. many people complain that the biden administration didn't deliver more weapons sooner but part of the calculus was that if kyiv falls quickly and then we want western weapons turned over to the russians when they rush right to the capital. of course that hasn't happened in the least. they have fought so bravely and successfully. they used to say the russian army was the best in the world. they're the second best army in the world but they're the second best army in ukraine. they're beaten by when many consider on the ukrainian side to be a rather rag tag group. so what's happening is that the u.s. is making it very calculated move to send more effective weapons, stronger weapons, weapons that can do more damage to the russians once they see that the ukrainians can use them effectively. that's what's going on now. i want to also just say to add on to what general mccaffrey said. great to see you, of course. he is right about the attack. blowing up a russian warship, in particular a flagship, is a massive morale hit to the russian navy. indeed to the russian armed services. this is an effective deterrent of further action and why the ships pull back because it's a big deal to have a warship hit like this. i remember on the march to baghdad the first time that i saw an m-1 abrams u.s. tank blown up because going through marine training we were taught that the tanks were pretty much invincible and to see an american tank completely blown up by iraqi forces hit me hard and the marines hard and made us say this is not going to be easy. that's what the russian navy is going through right now. this will be tough and helps the ukrainian cause. >> i have breaking news along the lines of what we are discussing that will i think warm both of your hearts. russia's defense ministry confirmed that its missile cruise ship has sunk. this is just trance lated by our network and confirmed to be from russian state-owned media. the ministry of defense of the russian federation reports that when the cruiser was towed to the port of destination due to damage to the hull received during the fire caused by the dead nation of ammunition the ship lost stability, the ship sank in a stormy sea. your reaction? >> it is good news. look. we got a huge challenge facing us. we meaning nato and the u.s. in particular. for the next phase of this battle. the question's in doubt how this war comes out. ukrainians have called up 200,000 territorial forces. and the west has now rushing to equip them with armor, small arms, anti-tank missiles. they have to put together a massive force to counter the russian. the ratio of equipment is about equal now. russia running in conscripts. ill trained also. we have to stand by them. i think we are and knocking this ship over into the sea was a great blow of triumph for the ukrainians. >> i was handed this note of russians watched the ship sink. just pick up on what the general's talking about and, you know, again, there is in addition to what i think is a little more opaque to us here. the masterful conduct of the ukrainian military. bill taylor said is the best trained in europe because in part they have been at war in the donbas for years now. is now proving to be quite strategic. a psychological blow to the russians. pick up on those points. >> absolutely right. the general's point that the paper the armies are pretty evenly matched. russia and ukraine have about the same number of forces now in this fight. that means that morale is all the more important here. it can really be the decisive factor. the general knows this very well himself from having led troops but when you're leading troops, especially in an unpopular war, i led troops in iraq. there are a lot of my marines that disagreed with president bush's decision and it is hard to get behind a mission when they didn't agree with what was going on. one of the hardest jobs i had as a 26-year-old lieutenant commanding a platoon of marines to explain to them why they had to risk their lives for a conflict they didn't believe in. a lot of them had questions. you have to imagine that these young russian troops have a lot of questions about what's going on here. at least my marines knew what they were doing. many of these russian troopsdy lutded to think they were going on a training mission and then in a brutal war against people, ukrainian people, in many cases they know, they share relatives and friends with. morale is going to be a big factor here and russian troops will have the morale further hit by seeing a russian warship, a flagship no less, sunk in the black sea. it is a very powerful moment in the conflict. >> i think the earliest assessment held for 50 days that the incompetence that the russian military both in the battle plan and the conduct is the story. it only seems to reinforce itself. we covered mariupol for as many days as the war and you have made the point that the ukrainians still control mariupol. it seems like even where the russian military is the most brutal, its most heinous, committed the genocide president biden talked about, it still isn't winning. >> yeah. it is astonishing. the defense of mariupol is magnificent. will go down in the annuls of military history. look. when we look at ukrainians, they do have several advantages. the generals are better. they made good decisions. defensive warfare and build up urban areas. they used eight-man nighttime patrols with anti-tank missiles. we worked with them on that for ten years. they have sergeants. so if the lieutenant is killed they don't come apart. the russians are a top down do what you are ordered to do. ukrainians used hybrid warfare. they got out there. they're good with special operations forces. every village has a grandmother with an app on the phone calling in location of russian tanks. it is a nation at arms, repelling the russian cruel invaders. we still don't know how this will come out and we haven't given the ukrainians the technological edge they require. that will come in the coming 30 days. >> congressman, i want to read something that the "the new york times" is reporting about two u.s. lawmakers visiting kyiv. >> in a show of support for ukraine, senator daneesa enrepresentative startz travelled to kyiv becoming the first american officials to turn up since the start of the war. nothing can substitute for actually being here. that was senator daines. what are the thoughts about the pros and cons of seeing it firsthand and being there and -- uk prime minister johnson has been there. what are your thoughts about u.s. officials traveling there? >> i think there are two fundamental reasons why it's important to have eyes on the ground here. we send hundreds of millions of dollars of u.s. taxpayer to aid the ukrainians. we better understand how that money is being spent. we better have oversight of it. after all, your community of journalists believe you can't cover the war without being in ukraine. i think it's safe to say we can't supervise without eyes on the ground there. it does matt every. it matters to the ukrainian troops on the front lines, to the grandmother in an apartment building calling in a russian tank location with the app. it matters to see the support of the world and matters to see the support on the grounds and why the administration is looking carefully at sending a higher level official and importantly senator daines was there and also my colleague in the house victoria startz who is a ukrainian native herself and you can't say anyone in the congress who better understands ukraine than she and so i certainly understand the motivation for going there. >> congressman, will you try to take a trip and travel to the region? >> look. i went to kabul and probably what you are referring to with representative meyer on a fact finding trip that was so botched and going so poorly. we didn't have eyes on the ground at all. no officials going there and had to make an important decision whether to extend the deadline and after repeated requests to go there and being denied peter and i went ourselves to see for ourselves what was going on and ultimately help make that decision. in some ways being two people who had lived in afghanistan out with the afghan people, there were probably no people, no two people more qualified in the congress to make that trip and made it very, very carefully with a lot of careful consideration and didn't talk about it until we got back. that's the level of care and concern that needs to be taken for any official whether a u.s. official or a european official visiting a war zone like kyiv so i can't speak to the preparations the colleagues of mine in the house and the senate made for the trip but i know from experience this is a time to take this very seriously. but is there a reason to have eyes on the ground, is there a reason for people like johnson and others to go there? yes. i think there are reasons. >> general barry mccaffrey, congressman, we appreciate you. thank you. when we come back, the january 6 committee landing another key witness. first resisting efforts to come in and talk. former aide miller met with the committee today. we'll look at what he could be providing them the jury reached a verdict in the case of a capitol rioter that stole government property. because he says he was under presidential orders to do so we'll try to unpack who elon musk is and what he wants with twitter. all those stories and more after a quick break. stay with us. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more 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flights, cars and hotels. they're lying to you! who's they? kayak? arr! open your eyes! compare hundreds of travel sites at once. kayak. search one and done. there's news today out of the january 6 committee, clear momentum forward in the final phase of its investigation inching closer to the twice impeached ex-president. president biden has again declined to exert executive privilege over claims from trump that he should. president biden has directed the national archives to send a new batch of trump white house documents to the january 6 commit tee. two weeks from today. to add to the hundreds of pages of documents it's already turned over. potentially not blow to the ex-president. nbc news learned former top aide stephen miller appeared virtually before the committee this morning after first resisting the committee's november subpoena and sued in response to demands for the phone records. joining us is betty woodruff swan and neal katyal is here. betsy, what do we know about the two developments? more documents and executive privilege denied. and some facetime with miller. >> we know that in recent months the committee just gotten inundated with documents that the white house counsel's office green lit to be sent over. just the volume is extraordinary and it is something that's unusual even by congressional investigation standards. they have to go through them with a solve basically. it is a ton of material and it is going to give them a lot, lot, lot of work to do. what we know about miller, of course, is that the chairman of the select committee has signaled a biggest thing to ask him about is the alternate electors scheme and the viewers are familiar with. the idea of sending sort of parallel electors to vote for trump instead of biden for the states that biden lawfully, definitely won. according to chairman thompson miller was part of the effort to organize this basically nationwide multistate project of getting people to say that they were -- their states had gone for trump. that's a top priority not only for the january 6 select committee but learned is something justice department prosecutors are looking into with subpoenas going out from a grand jury also asking about this same issue. it's really only gained prominence in recent months and something that's a top priority for investigators. >> you broke the story yesterday of ex-white house counsel spending time with the 1/6 committee yesterday. i was thinking about this last night, that the last or the most recent piece of evidence that invoked them was a text message from hannity to meadows that said the white house counsels will walk if the president doesn't cut it out. any sense of them being in the room may witness up witnesses like sean hannity if not in communication was cognizant of what they would do? >> i would have thought that they asked cipollone about the hannity text and curious why he had insight into the counsel potentially threatening to quit. we know in the days before the january 6 attack cipollone was part of a meeting that had in addition multiple very senior doj officials who met with the president who said that they would all quit if the president replaced the attorney general with jeffrey clarke who was another senior doj official on board with the president's project. that meeting itself has gotten a lot of attention and would have been more without an attack on the capitol but it is key as far as this wild last few weeks of the trump administration when you had almost a threatened toeltal walkout of top lawyers. pat cipollone used the term murder/suicide pact to describe a project mulling in that meeting. there's a ton he know that is the select commit tee will be really interested in. the fact that he is talking without a question signals to other people who might have been involved in the same conversations that he was in perhaps to behoove them to have the sides of the story be part of the record. >> neal, i don't often feel the need to invoke normalcy because nothing about the trump years was normal but as a level set it is not normal for a white house counsel to sort of open up the books and throw open the doors but i'm also a student of history and cipollone is not the first one to do so. don mcgahn was the primary narrator of the second volume, the crimes committed by donald trump. that were documented and detailed in that report. i think six of them is don mcgahn as a key witness. this is the second white house counsel who's gone out of a spirit of confession, a spirit of inside knowledge, out of a spirit of knowing that crimes were committed. talk about another white house counsel opening up door to what donald trump's west wing actually looked like. >> i'd push back a little bit on the idea that cipollone is actually opening the door. we know that he testified that trump authorized the engage wmt the committee. that's all we know. if the past is any prologue the white house counsels just say much to avoid contempt unlike maybe steve bannon but i don't think that we have seen anything akin to full cooperation and i also true about stephen miller's testimony today. maybe he told the truth. the committee singled him out for a role in this slate of electors theory. mill every thinks he is a lawyer yet knows nothing about the law. he knows squat about it. always attracted to the most bogus interpretation of the law particularly to enhance donald trump's powers. he's exactly the guy that james madison in federalist 51 warned against. a man not an angel. he is the guy who tried to keep the phone records secretz from the committee for a long time and the rational is that he was on a family plan and the search encompassed the parent's privacy. how is it that a grown man that advocated for separated the families at the border can't separate himself from his family's phone plan? >> very odd. >> given the underwhelming bag of tricks that they have done and the cipollones i imagine there's a family plan next. this is to avoid telling the truth. >> they have to go through it so much with a shovel? >> yeah. i'm glad to see it. i'm glad to see the biden administration has rejected any notion of executive privilege and the supreme court's already said didn't exist. we don't know about the documents but over 100,000 and still getting more. in pretty soon i suspect they will have a document for every word that donald trump didn't read in the daily briefings. we don't know what they say and until we see what your predicate of the first question to me was a forth right acknowledgement of what happened and people telling the truth i don't know that the documents alone will be enough particularly since some appear to be missing or spirited off to mar-a-lago. >> are the meadows' text that is we have seen and i imagine some we haven't, is that the closest in terms of public facing they have come? >> yeah. that's all that we have seen is a couple leaked things like that. so it could be you're absolutely right and text messages that we call documents that really do tell the story about january 6. but it does seem at least like a lot of call logs and records are missing and so i really think some actual testimony's important. this is why i think the justice department's grand jury investigation that betsy and others reported on is so significant because live testimony under a threat of perjury is a different animal than getting documents. >> yeah ji'll ask you both to stick around. donald trump made us do it. that's the ark. in front of a jury whether those that charge the capitol did so because the twice impeached ex-president told them to. how the jury reacted to that is next. the lows of bipolar depression can leave you down and in the dark. but what if you could begin to see the signs of hope all around you? what if you could let in the lyte? discover caplyta. caplyta is a once-daily pill, proven to deliver significant relief from bipolar depression. unlike some medicines 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extras, including wi-fi, cultural enrichment from ship to shore and engaging excursions. viking - voted number one river cruise line by condé nast readers. learn more at viking.com. some more breaking news. this from a few moments ago. guilty verdict in the case of capitol rioter dustin thompson, the third to face a jury and found guilty. the jury did not buy the attorney's attempts to convince him that thompson was following presidential orders that people like thompson believed the lies and that trump authorized the attack. a trump supporter of ohio he said he wore a bullet-proof vest. also didn't deny the charges to face including on strurks and theft of government property, a plag pole and a bottle of bower son stolen from the capitol. prosecutors for doj pushed back on the arguments reminding the jury that they don't have to choose between trump and thompson's guilty. we're back with betsy and neal. this feels significant in that part of the defense was that basically this is the defense attorney saying, actually -- i'll read it. he was fed a diet of bs. it's basically like saying a zombie army fed a diet of bs and can't be held accountable. a jury saying, i don't think so. >> yeah. it's quite significant. dustin thompson convicted on all six counts by a jury. it has a sentence of up to 20 years in prison. even more significant is reggie walton, the respected judge who was presiding over the case after sentencing said the following. quote, i think our democracy is in trouble because unfortunately we have shar latins like the former president who don't care about democracy and only care about power. >> wow. >> judge walton's remarks mirror what the defense attorney basically said from what you said, also, and also the entire opening statement was that trump was spewing lies to encourage the assault and maintain the grip on the power and in the last segment you said we forget how abnormal this was to have a guy refuse to concede and acknowledge after 60 court defeats and then encouraged people to come to the capitol on january 6. i think that's what this trial got at. >> the trials are obviously about crimes committed. doj clearly going for the crimes committed in plain sight. the 1/6 committee as you have described and talked about starting at the top of the enterprise with donald trump's attempts to overturn the defeat. in the context of two probes starting to touch and in some ways spark if you will, this is something congressman raskin said in "the washington post" yesterday. we have not been shy about criminal evidence encountered and the report will have profuse setting forth crimes not yet alleged. what he doesn't say to me is most interesting. there are more crimes. they have more. there's more than we know and what they put in the filings in the eastman cases where the judge said something similar to the judge today. but they keep making clear the evidence is for the prosecutors. we are not prosecutors. what do you make of the ongoing tension between the congressional investigation and doj? >> it is not unusual for a congressional probe to sort of uncomfortably shadow dance a little bit with the justice department. they investigate because it is problematic and bad and sometimes crimes committed that doj -- congressional investigators look into. other times over the course of the investigation or alleged to have been committed as in the case of steve bannon and seasoned congressional investigators and doj officials are used to navigating. to the extent it may create friction that would larmgly be because the justice department doesn't like being told who they're supposed to investigate and prosecute. they bristle whether the president or the congress and telling them how to do the jobs why they don't like the appearance that a case is the result of political pressure and some members of the committee said they might hold the criminal referrals because if it is comprised of information already publicly available the fact that congress asked doj to investigate or prosecute a particular action some members said they worry that it could make doj prosecutors a little bit more concerned about bringing the charges. doj makes the decisions independently. the fact they charged steve bannon so fast is evidence that they take allegations from congress seriously but there's a longer list of folks they have yet to charge and move slowly than congress and many folks want them to move. so i would expect this to continue and to percolate as a subplot but i don't think it's something that's going to have any sort of impediment on the work that both congress and the doj themselves are doing. >> betsy's absolutely right in the analysis of the optics but not the point. if there is criminality and i'm not saying there is criminality. liz cheney said there is. federal judge that looked at the evidence in the eastman case said there's criminality. i guess my question for you -- congressman lofgren on the show sort of blowing back against the reporting that they had enough evidence and then she would come right out and confirm they met the bar if they went through the process. and decided to do so. what i don't understand is the congressional probe is made up of seven former u.s. attorneys and they're the same people with the same skills doing the same thing. one doesn't charging decisions. what do you make of this tension and this sort of i think misperception. they have different ends but not different means. >> 100%. i think that a referral by the justice department over donald trump is warranted. they filed a brief that it is more likely than not that donald trump committed various federal felonies and then a judge in california, very respected federal judge, looked at the allegations and said, yes, i think that's right. more likely than not that donald trump committed the crimes. so with the committee and the people are saying is that would politicize it for us to refer this to the justice department. which i just fundamentally disagree with. for one thing, it is their job to gather this evidence and congressional referrals have a long history and done it with steve bannon and mark meadows. little weird to think you won't do it with the former president if they have the evidence which they say they do. it is not as if the committee is just a bunch of democrats. liz cheney is as far from a democrat as they come and i know the former president tried to undermine the credibility but she disagrees with someone like me on virtually on one issue. we have seen this movie before of a prosecutor who doesn't finish the job in mueller and worried the same thing will happen here and if they don't make a referral then trump will claim exoneration and the stuff he did the last time around. >> we have all been to that movie and know how it ends. betsy, neal, thank you both so much. when we come back, many know this. covid is on the rise but how concerned are we? white house 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[splash] [disappointed] broooo... good thing you saved on the trip! priceline. every trip is a big deal. so covid cases are ticking up again in places like new york and rhode island. infections up 14% from two weeks ago nationwide with more than 20 states and the district of columbia reporting increases thanks to the subvariant of omicron ba.2. though not as high as it was in january, the white house continues to tell us that as a country we've arrived at a promising stage of the pandemic thanks to the wide availability of vaccines and testing and new therapeutics. joining us, white house coronavirus response coordinator, someone who is familiar to all of us, dr. ashish jha. there's no one better to get us through this phase of the pandemic than you. congratulations. and what i wanted to ask you today is where are we, and what indicators do you look at from there? what should we look at at home? >> first of all, thanks for having me back. i'm excited to be here. we are, first of all, in a much, much better place than we have been in this pandemic. we have more than 200 million americans vaccinated, almost 100 million americans boosted. and we have widespread availability of treatments that we've got to keep getting more available for americans. that's the good news. infections are low, hospitalizations the lowest level of the pandemic. we have ba.2, the variant is dominant. we see cases going up. the big question is, is this going to lead to a lot more hospitalizations and deaths? i'm hopeful that it will not. we're going to have to see and going to monitor this closely and we'll have to be driven by data on what happens next. >> what do you look for? what is -- i think that what has set in for a lot of us is that this could be with us for a very long time. >> well, the virus is going to be with us for a very long time, probably forever. the question is, you know, is the virus going to cause massive spikes, is it going to cause our hospitals to get overwhelmed. all the things that we have seen over the last two years. we now have the ability to manage our way through it without those things. so what am i looking for? obviously infection, hospitalizations and deaths, we're looking at wastewater data, we're looking how we're doing on evacuati vaccinations tracking closely how good are we at getting therapies out to people. the president's done an extraordinary job of getting treatments available. now we have to encourage doctors and americans to go out and use these treatments. that will also drive down hospitalizations and deaths. >> something i've shared with you on and off tv has been the anxiety of parenting during covid. sort of choosing between lesser evils, keeping kids out of school was a terrible option. and worrying about what you didn't know about the pandemic before there were vaccines, there still isn't a vaccine for kids under 5. is that coming? >> yeah, so this is -- we've seen the data out of moderna that they are now in the middle of submitting that data to the fda. i'm hoping we're going to see data from pfizer on their three-dose series sometime in the next few weeks, as well. obviously you have lots of friends who have kids under 5 who are anxious to get their kids vaccinated. i'm anxious for them to get their kids vaccinated. we'll know more i think in the upcoming weeks once that data becomes a bit more available. >> so my viewers are vaccinated, they trust science, they're boosted if they've been told to boost. but there's an ongoing concern for themselves and their loved ones about long covid. what do we know, and what are we throwing at that? >> yeah, it's a great question. just last week the administration launched a major new effort to study it, understand it, look at its impact on workers and on disability. there's a lot of work to be done on long covid, and i think we are just getting started. we have a lot more to do. that's point number one. i think point two is we've always got to take it seriously. most of the evidence suggests if you're vaccinated and boosted and you have a breakthrough infection, you're much less likely to get long covid. if you get it, it's much less likely to be severe. so long covid, most severe forms tends to be in people unvaccinated who don't have immunologic training and can end up getting into trouble. one of the many, many reasons we want to get adults and kids vaccinated. >> that's reassuring. it's so nice to see you. i know this is sort of surging back in there, but we'd love to sort of get on your -- get your dance card as often as we can. it's nice to hear from you again. thank you so much. white house coronavirus response coordinator dr. ashish jha. thank you. >> thank you. when we come back, there's basically global consensus when it comes to the brutality of the russian military from everyone except -- use know where i'm going here -- the dangers of donald j. trump's inability or refusal to call out vladimir putin. fusal to call out 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lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta, from intra-cellular therapies. i just have a pretty close friends who is in occupied territory, and she has been terrified for every single day from this invasion, and she can't leave. and she's spent some time in a basement with her husband, and they sleep in turns because there are armed people robbing houses, et cetera. so i know that it can get really, really bad. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. that is the new normal in ukraine. that's reality for them. 50 days into there war. it's what horror and tragedy at the hands of vladimir putin looks like. people forced to live in cold, dark basements, to avoid dying in air strikes. once bustling, vibrant cities have been decimated. women and children raped. innocent civilians murdered. mass graves filling up. all of it happening on the orders of one man -- vladimir putin. these atrocities have been met with resounding condemnation from western leaders. >> saw what happened in bucha. this war -- he is a war criminal. we have to get all the details so this can be an -- have a war crimes trial. this guy is brutal. and what's happening in bucha is outrageous. and everyone's seen it. >> it is clear that putin is systematically targeting civilians. >> i think that the reality is that vladimir putin has already crossed the red line into barbarism. >> even on american soil where consensus is really, really hard to reach on anything these days, there's widespread agreement, widespread disdain for russian leader vladimir putin. a recent pew research poll found that just 6% of all americans have any confidence in putin to do the right thing regarding world affairs, which is why the clip we're about to play for you is so curious, so suspect. when asked by his friend and ally in the media, sean hannity last night on fox news, if vladimir putin is evil, yes or no question -- former president donald trump was either unwilling or unable or didn't understand the question, couldn't criticize the man committing what has played out before our eyes, what's been described by the current american president as genocide. keep in mind, this is the second do-over sean hannity has given donald trump in six weeks. the second time trump has refused to denounce vladimir putin. and again, we show you trump's response because trump's still on the scene. wants to be president again. it's really important to understand right now those who do not call out evil playing out before our very eyes for what it is. and to try to understand why. pay attention when you watch this to the complete disconnect between i guess what we'll call words garbles coming out of the ex-president's mouth and the images his close, close media ally at fox news aired on his broadcast while the ex-president was babbling. >> i asked you the last time you were on whether you think that this is evil in our time. do you believe this is evil in our time? >> i think in 100 years people are going to look back, and they're going to say how did we stand back and nato stand back which in many ways i've called a paper tiger -- don't forget, i rebuilt nato. they treated us very badly on trade. we changed a lot of that around, but they were very tough on trade. i asked angela merkel how many chevrolets are you selling this month in munich or berlin, and she looked at me -- well, probably none. i said, you're exactly right, none. yet we had the mercedes-benz of the volkswagens, all of them, we had all of the german companies, and the same thing with farmers. our farmers owe virtually nothing to europement when i look at what's happening, it never would have happened under the trump administration. i knew putin very well, almost as well as i know you, sean, and i will tell you we talked about it. we talked about it a lot. he did want ukraine, but i said, you're not going into ukraine. he would never, ever have gone into ukraine. >> fact check, and i know it's an insult to facts to call it that -- indulge me for a second. of course trump did not rebuild nato. in fact, in 2018 he threatened to pull out of nato if they didn't pay up, like it was one of his golf courses. and regarding the claim that this would have happened -- wouldn't have happened during the trump administration, trump thinks it's a fact, it ain't. one of our next guests says it is a discord and division that trump sowed and all the things we may not know about that allowed putin to feel as though he could launch this invasion in the first place. it's where we start the hour. lieutenant colonel alexander vinman is here, former director for the national security council and pete truck, counter intelligence agent. it's dicey to start with anything the ex-president says, but you cannot ignore that, as i saw, the most important person in the republican party, wants to run again, will not call vladimir putin a war criminal. those were images of dead civilians that sean hannity put up on the screen. and donald trump said this, "i rebuilt nato," started babble being trade and chevrolets and angela merkel and farmers, and then said, "i knew putin. i knew what he wanted to do." colonel vinman, your thoughts? >> honestly, it was word vomit is what that clip showed. it's -- it's shocking that he didn't have the intellect, the intelligence to -- the self-preservation to criticize somebody that the vast majority of the american public despises and identifies as a barbarian, as a war criminal. so i mean, he's always been his own worst enemy, and he continues to do so now. i think he's incapable of leading. he was incapable of leading while in government, and i think he's devolved. i guess my question is, does he have the faculties as bad as he was in the first trump administration, he seems to have spiralled down -- i don't know if that's -- if age or whatever it is, that it's getting to him now, that he's really incapable of piecing together coherent thoughts. and there's something to be said about the lack of courage, the cowardice to call things what it is. he -- he's a coward. he can't simply call putin out for his violent, vile attacks on ukraine, on the innocent ukrainian people. i don't see how he could possibly be a viable contender for 2024. i don't believe he is. he might still be popular in the republican party, but when it comes to the general election, he's nonviable, and he's -- he's -- he's done. >> so pete struck, author of "compromise," let me show you and let me just posit another theory. let's play this first. here's donald trump on vladimir putin over the years. >> he's running his country, and at least he's a leader unlike what we have in this country. >> but again, he kills journalists that don't agree with him. >> well, i think our country does plenty of killing also, joe. some others, they said they think it's russia. i have president putin, he just said it's not russia. i will say this, i don't see any reason why it would be. i went in yesterday, and there was a television screen, and i said, this is genius. putin declares a big portion of the ukraine, of ukraine. putin declares it as independent, oh, that's wonderful. so putin is now saying it's independent, a large section of ukraine. i said, how smart is that? >> i'd argue that another theory to put on the table, pete struck, is that it's consistent with public pronouncements that guarantee that whatever vladimir putin did in '16 and '20 he'll do tenfold in 2024. no? >> i absolutely think so. i mean, look, there's been flow president in recent memory who has done more part to the nato alliance and our relationship with our western european allies than donald trump. and you're right, you know, there are all of the quotes, he has steadfastly never been able to criticize vladimir putin in any way, shape, or form. he had not been in office a month when bill o'reilly was trying to give him an opportunity to say, look, vladimir putin's a killerment he said, there are lots of killers, we're not so innocent ourselves. you watch conservative television personality after conservative television personality try and lead him to say the simple statement of "putin is a killer, putin is evil," that 95% of the american population agree with except for this man. and i have tremendous respect for alex and wish i could agree with him that donald trump isn't a viable candidate, but i don't know that i agree. i think he still wields extraordinary influence over the republican party. i don't know that even in the face of all these horrific atrocities that when people's memories fade in two years from now and he's out there stumping that there isn't going to be a significant chance that he will have the nomination and be a viable candidate. i hope i'm wrong, but i have reason to believe i'm not. >> colonel vinman, i want to come at it from the other side. it's not just the refusal to criticize vladimir putin and the history of praising him, it's what he did to weaken ukraine. you had a front row seat for that. this is your quote to some great reporting in "the new york times" magazine, you said this, "ukraine became radioactive for the duration of the trump administration. there wasn't serious engagement. putin had been wanting to reclaim ukraine for eight years. he was trying to gauge when was the right time. starting months after january 6 putin began building up forces on the border, he saw the discord here, he saw the huge opportunity presented by donald trump and his republican lackeys. i'm not pulling any punches here. i'm not using diplomatic niceties. these folks sent the signal putin was waiting for." explain. >> i think the whole ukraine -- trump/cain scandal was a sea change -- ukraine scandal was a sea change. the ironclad support to ukraine, the russians didn't know what that meant. they -- there was a lot of speculation, how far the u.s. was willing to go. i think president trump and the ukraine scandal and basically putting his political needs, political urgencies ahead of national security indicated that this was a vulnerability, a vulnerability that the u.s. was not going to follow through on. and also indicated that, frankly, with the republican party following donald trump that there was -- half of the elites, half the political elites, half the legislature was not going to be on the side of opposing costs on vladimir putin. you have all that from, you know, basically summer of 2019 weighing in on vladimir putin, and seeing the opportunity after january 6th, the u.s. seeming very weak, very distracted. the damage done between donald trump and his attacks on nato and the fissures between our alliance, that all kind of amounted to the conditions, that environment for vladimir putin to say this is the time to do it. and that's why i think the timing is very telling, that weeks after january 6th you see the military build-up starting to occur. and that's -- it takes that long for a major military offensive like this to happen. you need to put all the thousands of pieces of equipment, all the logistics in place, and the temperature checking. and a lot of that temperature checking was occurring to even hours before when donald trump and mike pompeo and tucker carlson were bandwagoning for vladimir putin saying that, you know, who's the bad guy here, is it ukraine or vladimir putin who has done these dastardly deeds, demolishing chechnya, wrecking cities in syria, you know, poisoning opposition -- that's who they were choosing to support because they thought that there was -- they would curry favor with donald trump. but putin is sophisticated actor. he took the temperature and said this is the time to go. he gave the order. now we see the consequences. that's why i think these republican actors, donald trump, have blood on their hands. >> pete struck, the other circuit that closes after january 6 and is sort of hermetically sealed is the ashley babbitt lionization by vladimir putin, picked up and echoed by tucker carlson and amplified by drum. it becomes a closed loop -- donald trump. it becomes a closed loop. if you want a trial run, ukraine propaganda, lies, you want to make sure your propaganda loop closes and that your disinformation is amplified in america so that you can then play it back in your home country to prop up the lies you're telling your own population. talk about the importance of closing that loop for vladimir putin around the events of january 6 with his american allies. >> well, i think what you see vladimir putin doing is twofold. one, he's able to through disinformation efforts, through intelligence efforts, cede and encourage the nonsense that's taken hold and taken root in the more extremist chat rooms and social media. the sad thing to see is a lot of the january 6 folks that have been charged are explaining how -- why they did what they did, how they became radicalized. many of the story lines are things that we saw russian disinformation amplifying. so on the one hand there was an impact in the united states political process in the insurrectionists on january 6. then the second aspect of that is as people protest, as people say, you know, the vote was stolen, that biden's illegitimate, that there isn't strong support in the u.s. for nato, that then gets picked up within russia, that gets picked up by russian state television and russian state media. so not only is it something that's getting placed into the u.s. dialogue by a number of things including russian disinformation sources, it's then being harvested back and looped into the kremlin where, you know, putin, by all accounts, is a very, very limited number of advisers and information in place that he's receiving, one of which appears to be russian state media, including those statements that he and his intelligence services have helped cede. it is this constant loop that i think absolutely creates a false impression that then allows him to say, well, if i do invade ukraine, there isn't going to be a strong united states response, there isn't going to be a strong unified nato response. and all that disinformation comes around to really adversely impact him and his calculus deciding to invade ukraine. >> your former colleague fiona hill said this, in the article that i read your quote from, she's described this, fiona hill's assessment of the former president has new resonance in the current moment. quote, in the course of his presidency, indeed, trump would come more to resemble putin in political practice and predilection than he resembled any of his recent american presidential predecessors. seeing him behind the scenes, does that ring true in terms of how he sought to shape the american presidency? >> you know, it's interesting, i think that there is -- he did draw closer to putin. i think putin comes across as an opportunist looking for opportunities to exploit. and clearly in this context, i think it goes back to your earlier question that whether putin was material in the 2016 elections, donald trump seems to think that putin was material in the elections, and he's looking -- he's stretching out his hand asking for help. i'm going to be on your side, vladimir putin. i want you to help me in 2024. and i think that he thinks that he can get some help. he's an opportunist looking for aid from a like-minded individual, and that's one of the reasons it seems that he's not willing to be critical. i think that has to in a lot of ways explain why the -- the self-preservation instinct depressed, why the efforts to make the right decision, high thinks those will be less important in the long run than having the aid of vladimir putin potentially going into 2024. >> colonel, donald trump says that putin didn't do this while i was there. people on this show have said that that's because whatever he was getting was better than whatever he's getting out of the war in ukraine. why do you think vladimir putin didn't launch the invasion of ukraine while trump was president? >> i think he was hoping for a second administration, a second trump administration in which donald trump and john bolton's been pretty on point on this one, donald trump would withdraw from nato, and then there -- vladimir putin wouldn't have to contend with this notion of a nato response or a concerted response. donald trump would fracture any efforts to cohere around imposing costs on putin. that's what he was hoping for. in reality that didn't happen, so relatively quickly and with the opportunities presented by donald trump not -- continuing to rabble rouse, continuing to basically bring the republican party to oppose democracy and to sow discord he went for plan b. plan b was pretty straightforward. ukraine continues to slip through my fingers, vladimir putin thinks, he kind of sets the fact that ukraine would be a more difficult problem -- he didn't accurately assess how difficult it was already. he failed to miss those signals. but he decided to act. plan b would be to go after ukraine before it's too late. plan a was certainly waiting for donald trump to do his damage and then just waltz in there and have it handed to him on a silver platter. >> amazing, amazing state of affairs. thank you both so much for starting us off this hour. when we come back, a glimpse inside one of the hardest hit cities in ukraine where russia has stepped up rocket attacks in the last 24 hours. a live report from kharkiv is next. plus, abortion is effectively outlawed in another state after republican lawmakers override a democratic governor's veto. we'll discuss the new law's chilling impact, the wave of new abortion bans and the renewed calls for federal legislation to protect reproductive freedoms. and it's the question a lot of people are asking today -- what does billionaire elon musk want with twitter? we'll try to get answers later in the hour. wayfair has everything i need to make my home totally me. sometimes, i'm a homebody. can never have too many 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city's mayor says there has not been a single day without strikes since the start of the war on february 24th. and the mayor said yesterday the intensity of that bombing has increased in recent days. the area's governor reports that tragically 503 civilians including two dozen children have been killed since the war began. joining us now, npr international correspondent aider perralta live in kharkiv, ukraine. it's a pleasure to get to talk to you. we have not heard much from there. so please, you know, take us beyond today and tell us what that city has been through. >> i mean, look, it's a heartbreaking situation here. if you were to look outside right now, the city is completely dark. it is a ghost city in a lot of ways. before the war this was a vibrant place with lots of technology, lots of universities. and now what you hear even in downtown kharkiv where we are is just constant shelling. i left my recorder out yesterday when we were in a basement, and i let it record for three hours. and it recorded 50 blasts during that time. and so you know, we have driven into some of the worst areas, worst hit areas here, and homes are completely destroyed, businesses are destroyed, families are living underground. i mean, some of them have been living underground for 50 days, since this war started. and you know, the metros are crowded still. you know, some people complained that they were getting sick in those metros. and a lot of people -- i was at the train station a couple of days ago, and it's gotten too scary for a lot of people. the few people who are her -- most of the city has left. people were still leaving at the train station. a few people i spoke to said the blasts just got too loud. things just got too scary to continue to try to stay. >> tell us about sort of basic services. is there water? is there power? is there food? >> there is water, there is power. and there's -- there is food. i mean, i spoke to one volunteer who said that the problem is that they can't get into those areas. and so you have this network of volunteers -- when i say volunteers, they're riding around in their own personal vehicles, driving through these completely shelled out areas to get food to people, and i should note that many of the people who have stayed is because they can't leave. so it is the most vulnerable in seat, older people, people with disabilities. so they desperately need this help, but they need this help taken to them. and sometimes it's just impossible. sometimes the shelling is so bad in the northern part of the city that volunteers can't get there. so the things they need are here. it's getting to them from what i've heard from volunteers. that's the part that is difficult. i mean, you know, some -- for example, there's no hot water because it's provided by the city here in some places. and you know, in some places there's no heating, like in this hotel right now there's neating. but people -- no heating. but people have essentials. one woman i was talking to said our problem is not food, our problem is this war. >> yeah. is there -- do you see fighting -- are civilians being targeted? i mean, it seems like the west woke up to the -- what is described as a russian playbook of targeting and tormenting civilians. is that happening there, or is this a clash among the two militaries or both? >> i mean, i think i can tell you what i've seen which is in the places north of the city, everything has been shelled. schools, homes, businesses, even here in the center of town. we've seen schools shelled. we've seen factories shelled. you know, there are some military targets have been shelled, but a lot of it are civilian objects. you know, it's hard to tell intent, but i can tell you that, you know, when you're driving through those northern suburbs, this is a really densely populated city in the north, so you have just blocks and blocks of residential buildings. and many of them just have these huge craters in the middle of them. i was talking today to the governor of kharkiv, and he told me that once they get access to those parts of the city, we might find out that things were worse here than they were in kyiv because they've been under shelling for so much longer than kyiv. and in a lot of ways some of these parts of the city are truly inaccessible, so we'll learn the true toll of this once the fighting stops. >> you are our eyes and ears, so thank you so much for your reporting. please stay safe, and we'll continue to check in on you. thank you for spending some time with us today. >> thank you. switching gears for us, new abortion bans in three more states this week are renewing calls for federal legislation to protect women's reproductive freedoms. congressman madeleine dean will be our guest. guest ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. 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serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto for heart failure. entrust your heart to entresto. as the united states supreme court appears poised to overturn roe versus wade as soon as next month, republican state legislators are rushing to pass abortion bans. and these bans are becoming more and more extreme. today, florida governor ron desantis signed a 15-week abortion ban into law. it contains a chilling requirement that all abortions must be reported to the state along with the reason why they were performed, all of them. in kentucky, the ladies and gentlemen -- legislature suspending abortion access in that state, passing a series of restrictions so demanding that the clinics in that state were unable to comply and were forced to suspend services. it is the first state since roe was decided to have no legal abortion access, none. this week oklahoma's governor signed a near total ban on abortion into law. the only exception is to, quote, save the life of a pregnant woman in a medical emergency, end quote. and in a sign of the growing extremism, the current version of the republican party, none of these bans have exceptions for rape or incest. not one. joining us now, congresswoman madeleine dean of pennsylvania. so congresswoman, it's no secret i used to work in republican politics. not having exceptions for rape and incest was radioactive in republican primary politics not that long ago. what has happened? >> i don't know, but these are grotesque add-ons to what happened with the texas law that we saw months ago. banning abortion after six weeks and, of course, in anticipation of what the supreme court might do as they complicitly allow the texas ban to go forward as they decide whether or not to overturn roe v. wade. what i think is so grotesque is these decisions -- obviously by republican-controlled majorities and republican governors -- i might note how predominantly male the folks are who are passing these laus because i'm a former pennsylvania state legislature who suffered these bills being introduced, they have nothing to do with health care. they have nothing to do with the laws or the constitutional right to abortion, to abortion services because abortion services are health care services. these are cynical, grotesque, lacking in compassion and understanding of what abortion services is, political moves by governors and legislators. and sadly, republican majorities in my own state have tried these same things, and i know following this supreme court decision will try it again if they remain in the majority. >> abortion politics can be polarizing around the extremes. but roe v. wade has never been polarizing. 65% of americans support it, 85% i think of all women support it, a pluralality of republican men and women support it. what has happened that has scrambled those politics? >> i don't know, and when you figure out that answer, please let me know. but i fear -- i hope the supreme court does not overturn or handicap and cripple roe v. wade. but if it does, this election cycle will be about abortion -- constitutional abortion services. let's be clear -- the outlawing of abortion, whether you're texas, oklahoma, kentucky, florida, any of the states that are trying to do this, pennsylvania will try again, is not about ending abortion. this will not end abortions. this will end safe, legal abortions for some women. let's remember the inequities for this. this won't end it for all women, it will end it predominantly for women of color and women in poorer economic circumstances. with the oklahoma bill which is a near-total ban, take a look at that one. texas had its six-week ban. and we know that women migrated to oklahoma to seek abortion services. >> right. >> and 45% apparently of women coming were coming from texas. now with a near-total ban, ten years -- the possibility of ten years in prison for a provider, $100,000 in fines, where do those women go, from texas, from oklahoma, who don't have means? we know this disproportionately affects women of color and poorer women. it's a very cynical set of moves, and i believe it is really entirely political. it has nothing to do with maternal health. >> and women are suffering, and women will suffer. democrats control the house and the senate and the white house. does it -- are there conversations behind the scenes? are these bills changing the priorities for you in congress to try to do something legislatively? i know the house has passed legislation. but to try to push it in the senate? >> exactly, yeah. yeah, exactly. we did pass a bill to codify roe v. wade in light of the threat through the supreme court and now the state courts. i'm certain -- we're on holiday in our districts for passover, easter, ramadan, but i am certain, and i'm talking to my friends, legislators, these series of bills that have come up are creating a greater urgency around this issue. something i want to turn on its head because i'm so tired of it is the governor in oklahoma, when he signed the bill, he said "i want this to be the most pro-life state in the nation." this is not a pro-life bill. in fact, it will risk and cause the death of women. this is not pro-life, this is about pro-choice, republican politicians who want their choice to be known. and those who are pro-live are families like my own who want to make sure that we have the right, my daughters-in-law, my granddaughters, have the right to full medical care in the privacy of our own doctor's office and our own home. these are not pro-life bills. don't make any mistake about it. >> congresswoman madeleine dean, thank you so much for spending time with us. we'll stay on it. >> good to see you. when we come back, the planned takeover of twitter by billionaire elon musk is raising fears that the platform could soon turn into the wild west, free for all, without guardrails against disinformation and 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board of directors with elon musk seemingly jazzed about that move and the chance to make, quote, significant improvements to the social media company in his view. so then fast forward one week, and the billionaire makes a stunning u-turn. he abandons his seat on the board with no explanation. now elon musk has made a big move to just try to buy twitter outright for $54.20 a share, $43 billion in cash. musk is promising to exploit the company's, quote, extraordinary potential by taking it private and has issued an ultimatum threatening his position as the shareholder if the board doesn't accept his bid. joining us to explain why it matters and what it means to all of us is cara swisher, "new york times" contributing writer, host of "the pivot and sway" podcast. also, donnie deutsche host of "the on brand" podcast, to help make sense of all this. so cara swisher, correct anything i got wrong there. but how did we get to today? >> no, he -- he made a bid. he made a bid. that's pretty much, he's interested in the company. he's always been a big fan. he's a heavy user and uses it pretty well. he uses it all the time to market himself, to say things, to do memes, to troll, he's kind of the edge lord of twitter in a lot of ways. so he was interested in buying it. it's actually an opportunity because twitter stock is undervalued for a long time. largely because its business has met, its growth has been met it doesn't mean it couldn't be bigger. it's lagged behind all the internet stocks since it went public in 2013. and so i guess he saw an opportunity to do something. he bought the stake, he was on the -- he wasn't on the board, he was offered a seat on the board and decided probably he'd be better off shooting in than out i guess, i don't -- tweeting in than tweeting out. he wasn't allowed to because of all the rules, and he wasn't this charge the way he is at his other companies. >> so then he tries to -- tries to buy it, and then -- what happened? what happened today? >> well, the stock market doesn't believe it. wall street -- the shares are about $45 a share. it didn't move very much even though he's offering $54.02, a joke that he makes around purchase and things like that of 420 -- they didn't -- wall street doesn't think it's going to happen. what elon offered -- of course twitter's board which should be looking at poison pill things and other buyers, perhaps, is probably going to reject it. one of its other big investors, prince bin talal said no way, we're not taking this offer from elon musk. so that's a big voice. >> so it's not devoid of politics. i mean, donnie, a lot of people on the right have projected on to elon musk their fantasies for what twitter could be with a figure from the right who they view elon musk as. it's not clear to me what he actually is at all, in charge of it. what is your take on what's going on? >> first of all, we have to look at the theater of it. this is like an old bond villain. you know, in the days of the richest guy in the world was going to buy up the most important media platform in the world. it has dramatic underpinnings. what elon musk has also said, he's got twitter in a tough position where he says it you don't i'll sell the stock. he's a free speech absolutist. we can what happened with trump and -- we know what happened with trump and know the responsibility of twitter. he basically said he wants all side heard. everybody wants all sides heard. but you get into this first amendment discussion where you go back to you can't yell fire in a movie theater, so what are the ground rules, can somebody get on twitter and say i think's time to start killing muslims on the street? so who plays judge and jury, and the issue is whether it's elon musk or anyone else, it's bigger than elon musk and is going to be wrestled with for years to come. >> kara swisher, what is your sense of what happens next? >> i don't know. with elon, you never know. last week when he was off the board and it was going to happen, i'm like, i don't know, he could buy it, he could walk away. i think if he systems the stock -- the stock has been wasn't up for a long time. there could be another buyer present. i don't think they're going to sell it to him at this price. and i don't think it's over politics or anything else. i think he's just playing games with them. and also the sec, who he's been in beefs with all the time. at some point he's going to lose those beefs. but maybe not. you know, he's done pretty well. they haven't fined him that much. they gave him a slap on the wrist so he knows where to push their buttons. what's interesting about this is elon right after twitter pulled his friend jack dorsey pulled trump off twitter after january 6th, i think january 8th, and posted, elon said this shouldn't happen. now twitter was going to face this issue no matter what. if donald trump becomes the candidate and wins, they were going to be under pressure to put him back on the platform no matter what, even though it's -- you don't need elon to do this. we'll see. some of the suggestions he made were good. some of them were kooky. like removing the "w" from the name, which you could see where he's going with that. he's also pranking at the same time as quite serious. >> donnie, if you you care abou democracy and the threat posed by abusing the first amendment to push disinformation about a stolen election, for example, or the safety of the covid vaccine, what should you be rooting for in terms of an outcome when it comes to elon musk and twitter? >> i'm certainly rooting against elon musk. it's interesting. cara knows it well. and walter isaacson today on my podcast who is writing his biography, so i never met the man. there is something frightening about a guy who likes to kid and do these things in control of this situation. i just -- there's -- there needs to be some -- it's interesting. in his tweet about taking over, he used the word i and my 11 times and that just says something about the man. and i think we're heading into a scary situation here and i do think -- but this is, once again, an unsolvable -- this is an unsolvable problem. on the one hand, we want free speech. on the other hand, you can can't let this disinformation. who is the panel, who are the gods? i get concerned with elon musk being the god. i tell you that much. >> the truth is the truth. and i still don't understand why facebook and twitter struggle with the truth. why is this so hard for them? >> first of all, whose truth? elon -- >> who won the election? i mean, like it's either joe biden or donald trump. >> yes, fair. here is the issue. twitter is not very big. the issue is facebook. twitter is tiny comparatively. i think the media and political people are obsessed with twitter as is elon musk, business leaders. in general, facebook is where the real action is going because it's so much bigger and so much more important among everyone and you can see the impact, you know, january 6th, facebook was where a lot that have action was happening. so, you know, i think what elon likes this. he likes this going oh, my god, the bond villain is going to take over. he is a hero to a lot of people. he likes the attention. i will give him credit, look, tesla and spacex are real significant companies and he has moved the needle on critical issues around transportation, autonomy and electric cars and in space he has changed the game with these rockets that land and these reusable rockets. he is not a complete, like, you know, the mad prankster if you are being nice and, you know, sort of the evil genius if you are not. he is somewhere in the middle. no matter who owns twitter, like don said, no one is going to like the decision. one thing -- let me say he was talking about in his ted interviewed to, alluding to shadow banning. there has been no proof of that. but the right likes to hold that up. and he is not a trend to it the right necessarily. i don't even know what his politics are really. it changes so much. >> it feels like the whole thing could be a troll. we'll keep watching. cara, donny, thank you. quick break for us. we'll be right back. please stay with us. we'll be right back. please stay with us. it's an entire trading experience. with innovation that lets you customize interfaces, charts and orders to your style of trading. personalized education to expand your perspective. and a dedicated trade desk of expert-level support. that will push you to be even better. and just might change how you trade—forever. because once you experience thinkorswim® by td ameritrade ♪♪♪ there's no going back. ♪♪ three times the electorlytes and half the sugar. ♪♪ pedialyte powder packs. feel better fast. -dad, what's with your toenail? -oh, that...? i'm not sure... -it's a nail fungus infection. -...that's gross! -it's nothing, really... -it's contagious. you can even spread it to other people. -mom, come here! -don't worry about it. it'll go away on its 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(laughs) flexible cancellation. kayak. search one and done. there is a game of cat and house at the russian embassy in washington, d.c., last night. pro ukraine activists led by our friend from the "lawfare" blog projected a giant image of the ukrainian flag on to the russian embassy across the street with the russians countering with a bright white spotlight of their own. witnesses explained the protests this way, quote, it was the most invasive object strus i have obnoxious things i could do to russian diplomats doesn't do violence to their prerogatives. hmm. quick break for us. we'll be right back. hmm. quick break for us we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ we believe there's an innovator in all of us. ♪ ♪ that's why we build technology that makes it possible for every business... and every person... to come to the table and do more incredible things. wayfair has everything i need and every person... to make my home totally me. sometimes, i'm a homebody. can never have too many pillows! sometimes, i'm all business. a serious chair for a serious business woman! i'm always a mom- that is why you are smart and chose the durable fabric. perfect. i'm not a chef- and, don't mind if i do. but thanks to wayfair, i do love my kitchen. yes! ♪ wayfair you got just what i need. ♪ thank you so much for letting us into your homes touring these extraordinary times. the beat with ari melber starts right now. a rare day i am right on time. >> we will take it either way. nice to see you, nichole. >> have a good show. >> absolutely. thanks to nicole and welcome to the beat beat. i'm ary medical better. one of donald trump's most controversial and loyal aides. he began the trump era pushing the immigration crackdown later reigned in by the courts. ended it openly, talking up a plot to steal the election with fraudulent electors. and that may be familiar given recent news cycles. i want to start here tonight to show you this all began and was actually seeping out in little

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