he will join me later in the show to talk about power, energy and more. then, the velshi banned boat club is back in session. author -- joins me to talk about her best-selling young adult novel deer martin, and why it's being targeted by book banners and sensors across the country. they'll see begins right now. >> good morning to you, today is sunday april the 24th. i'm ali velshi. as new evidence comes to, light it is becoming increasingly clear that the failed former president did not act alone in his attempt to overthrow democracy. and cling to power, after losing to the 2020 election. brand new evidence filed in federal court this weekend by the house select january six committee suggests a slew of republican members of congress helped the ex president to devise a strategy to overturn the election results, back in december of 2020. deposition excerpts filed by the committee suggest that some of the twice impeached ex presidents most loyal stooges in congress were frequently present in meetings, where strategies about how to prevent joe biden from taking office were discussed. some of these names might sound familiar. according to key testimony from cassidy hutchison, an ex aide to the chief of staff, mark meadows. gop lawmakers who attended meetings in person or on the phone included the pennsylvania congressman scott perry, the texas congressman louis glimmered, the ohio congressman jim jordan and the florida congressman matt gates, along with numerous members of the house freedom caucus. reflecting on these revelations, politico notes that members traded theories about ways to push then vice president mike pence to single-handedly stop biden's election. they parried with the white house counsel's office on the boundaries of the law, regarding per presidential electors. they met directly with pence's staff to encourage him to take direct action on january 6th, when congress convened to count electoral votes, and quote. this new evidence actually ties into with the maryland congressman and committee member jamie raskin told me on friday. you'll remember, when the ex presidents maga mob attacked the capitol, chance of hang mike pence could be heard as rioters ransacked of the buildings and pence had to be evacuated to a safer location. well, congressman raskin says that he believes donald trump was sending a very clear message to mike pence. >> donald trump was being begged and besieged by members of his own family, by members of his own administration, by members of congress from both parties to call it off. and he refused to do that for more than three hours. he was absolutely a wall because he, i believe, and as part as uncertain, we've got to figure it, out but i believe he was trying to turn up the temperature on mike pence by continuing to unleash and then incite this mob against him. even when donald trump understood that vice president pence was in danger, even when there were mobs chanting hang mike pence, he continued to send out messages inflaming the mob against mike pence. >> as the panel finalizes its investigation, it appears to be homing in on a few key questions. when it took for the ex president to call off the violent mob and how long it took for him to do it. the committee have been gathering testimony from key members of his inner circle, as it gears up for public hearings to begin in june. congressman raskin says the committee's revelations about the january 6th attack will, quote, really blow the roof off the house. joining me now is daniel goldman, he's an msnbc legal analyst, the former house impeachment inquiry majority counsel. and former director of investigations for the house intelligence committee. dan, good to see you, thank you for being with us. i want you to help me interpret this a little bit. things seem to be -- the committees having a tough, time they can't get all the people they want. there is lots of phone calls and radio leaks, things like that. but raskin says, when these public hearings happen in june, it's going to change public opinion. because it's going to be so clear what was going on. tell me your interpretation of that. >> well, i think friday's filing in the mark meadows case starts to reveal a little bit about what jamie raskin is talking about. first, as you pointed out, what's occurred from the time of the election upsurge in uae sixth was a massive effort by a number of elected officials who swore an oath to the constitution to try to figure out a way to prevent joe biden from taking over as president after winning a lawful and clean election. you may recall, ali, that a number of months ago we learned that in a meeting that donald trump had with top justice department officials he told them to just say that it was corrupt, and i and our congressman will take care of it. clearly, that was an indication that republican congressman were very involved in it. now we've seen a lot more evidence, from the testimony you mess mentioned and from text messages with mark meadows. but what really strikes me about this filing on friday is less about the number of people who are coordinating it, and that now the picture that starting to become clear about what donald trump was doing and not doing on that day. for the first time, we have clarity that the january six committee, who has interviewed top officials in just about every agency related to protecting our country, say that not one time did donald trump try to stop what's was a clear invasion of the united states capitol. this is the president of the united states, the commander-in-chief, and he did not at any point during that entire afternoon try to get reinforcements, find the national guard, call anyone to stop what was a clear insurrection. to try to invade the capital and stop the counting of votes. that says everything you need to know. i'm a lawyer, ali, i dig into the evidence. but this is common sense. the guy did absolutely nothing to stop this mob. and what does that tell you? i think, as congressman raskin pointed out, it tells you that this is exactly what he wanted. and so, if it's that sort of thing that congressman raskin is talking about i think it will really bring into stark relief exactly what happened and did not happen on that day. and the presidents central role in trying to overturn the election. >> let me ask you this, because i know you tweeted about this the other day. we had a president of the united states who was caught on tape saying that he would grab women by the word i'm not going to say on tv. no one cares. so, to the extent that you're a lawyer and liz cheney has made the case that the inaction of the president on january six may have broken a law, that might be all that matters. right? because people don't seem to care much, that he did this. jamie raskin cares, you care, i care, our viewers care. but, fundamentally, can you do anything about a president who either incited a mob in an insurrection or didn't do anything to stop it? is there a statute that can result in consequences for donald trump or those around him? >> yes. and i think one thing we have to recognize is that the authority of the january six committee is somewhat limited, right? it's not a criminal investigatory body. but the department of justice is. there are several statutes, where the evidence of donald trump's inaction demonstrates his knowledge, intent in consciousness of guilt to commit a crime. that, as a former prosecutor, that would be central evidence to show exactly what his state of mind was on that day. and then you add up all the evidence of his efforts in prior weeks and months to overturn the election, and i think you have a pretty good case for a conspiracy to defraud the united states by impairing a lawful election. that is a common conspiracy charge, under title 18, united states code three 71, there is a statute. what is going to require is a lot of really hard, intense work by the department of justice to aggressively investigate this. to talk to those republican congressman, to talk to mark meadows. all of whom may not want to talk, because they may have criminal culpability as well. so, yes, i do think that, with the fox news far-right eco sphere, there are people who are only getting their information from those outlets and they are not going to hear about the criminal conduct of donald trump and others. but it is incumbent upon all of us to continue to discuss it, and it is incumbent on the department of justice to be the backstop to hold our elected officials and others accountable for trying to overturn an election. our democracy depends on it. >> daniel, you are a gem. not only a lawyer but you have a great deal of experience on how this process is actually going to work. we appreciate your time always. daniel s goldman is an msnbc legal analyst in the former house impeachment counsel. the january 6th attack on the capitol in the deeper plot overturn the 2020 election results reveal just how close our democracy actually came to crumbling. democracy is an idea that has to be fought for and protected, because once it's gone it's incredibly difficult to restore. which is why we see ukrainians fighting so hard to maintain their democracy and their sovereignty. today marks two months, 60 days, since russia invaded ukraine and set off a war that is cost thousands of lives and sent millions more fleeing for safety. ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy says eight people were killed, including a three month old baby girl and 18 wounded, in a missile attack sunday on the port city of odessa on the black sea. it happened while we were on air yesterday morning. ukrainian officials say the death toll could still rise. on friday, what appeared to be another mass grave was discovered in a village near mariupol. about 12 miles away. according to an adviser to the besieged southern city's mayor, satellite images from the u.s. defense contract, which you're looking at right now, show what the firm described as in a statement as several parallel trenches measuring roughly 131 feet long that are or will likely become new grave sites. new mass grave sites. today, zelenskyy says he's going to meet with the u.s. secretary of state anthony blinken and the defense secretary lloyd austin, to discuss what kinds of weapons ukrainians to continue battling against russia's aggression. however, the white house, the national security council in the state department have declined to comment on this potential meeting. this comes as ukrainian resistance forces slow the kremlin's attempts to fully capture the city that you're looking at, the key port city of mariupol. russia resumed its assault on the latest ukrainian defenders. they are hold up in a giant steel plant. as of stall, it's called. they say putin's army was not able to breakthrough. joining me now is an applebaum, a journalist for the atlantic. offer author of red famine and twilight of democracy, the seductive lure of authoritarianism. and other, bucks all of which you should read. and has been a stalwart help to us understanding this war, but then something changed, and. you are there, you went to lviv, you spoke with this enigma of a man, volodymyr zelenskyy. who the war was who the world was unclear about, whether he would be up to this task. and he has been leading ukraine to this war and leading the west and understanding the implications of the war. >> yes, i went to kyiv about ten days ago with my editor jeff goldberg and we had a meeting with zelenskyy and with some of his staff. i think violence key seeds right now himself as having to task. one is the obvious one of helping the world to arm ukraine, not because the world wants to prosecute a war but because we want people to die, but because that is the only way to make sure that ukraine continues to exist as a nation. he knows and we all now know, you just showed those great sights on television. we now know what russian occupation means for ukrainians, it means the arrest, sometimes the murder of local mayors and officials. it means mass terror conducted among the population and it means the destruction of any sense of statehood or any sense of identity for the people who live there. it's really an existential, war it's not just about territory, it's not just about a few pieces of land. it's about whether the country can exist and whether people can continue to live in some kind of not just democracy but some kind of, with any kind of freedom, with any kind of sovereignty. with any kind of identity. his second task, and this is what he's been surprisingly good at, is explaining to outsiders what ukraine is. it's a country that was, didn't have a state, it's been a nation and has had a sense of identity for many centuries, but it didn't have a statehood until 1991. it's been a colony of other countries, of the soviet union, of the russian empire. and more and more, particularly over the last several decades, its national identity has become bound up with the ideas of democracy and the idea of european integration. the idea of personal freedom. zelenskyy, who is a former comedian, which is why many people underestimated, him is actually somebody who is very attuned to audiences, to what people think, to political views. and he has been very good at conveying that sense of ukrainian tennis, it's not an ethnic identity, it's our kind of civic, patriotic identity. you can be ukrainian if you understand that that's with the state, is that it's a democracy, that it's a free society. and that it aspires to be integrated with the rest of the world and with europe in particular. and this is day 60 of the war. american intelligence had suggested that this would be a fast war. it did not turn out to be a fast war. and now intelligence, british intelligence, u.s. intelligence, and others expect it is going to go on for sometime. they tell me that if it goes on for sometime the advantage goes to russia, because their ability to conscript soldier's has more research than ukraine does. tell me how that plays out. volodymyr zelenskyy has been an incredible motivating force for his people and neighboring countries to the west. but what happens if we talk about the six months from now or a year from now, or longer? >> i don't think anybody in ukraine is yet to thinking about a year from now. but they have been very clear that it is the next few weeks that are truly crucial. they believe that if they can push the russians back, not just hold the line, but push them out of occupied territories in the coming weeks, then they will have a good chance of convincing the russians to think twice about whether innovation is a good idea. they feel that the knee to make the russians pay an incredibly high price has never been stronger. >> thank, you as always, for your analysis. thank you for making that trip to enhance your expertise on this and share it with us. and applebaum is a staff writer for the atlantic report, a historian. i encourage you to read her work. it is uniquely timely and important. but it is steeped in a great deal of history that she has studied. coming, up we are going to go to ukraine for a live report. former stoning president to miss elvis reacts to his country's parliament officially calling russia's actions a genocide. voters in france are heading to the polls today for every one of the 2017 election. tremendous stakes are next. when it comes to tech, everyone wants the next best thing. now with xfi complete from xfinity, you can get updated wifi technology with the new tech upgrade program. plus, protection from cyber threats at home and now on the go. so staying up to date is easier than ever. you look great by the way. right? unbeatable internet. made to do anything so you can do anything. only xfinity will upgrade your tech after 3 years for a more reliable connection. get that and more with xfi complete. upgrade today. at xfinity, we live and work in the same neighborhood as you. we're always working to keep you connected to what you love. and now, we're working to bring you the next generation of wifi. it's ultra-fast. faster than a gig. supersonic wifi. only from xfinity. it can power hundreds of devices with three times the bandwidth. so your growing wifi needs will be met. supersonic wifi only from us... xfinity. but the end of today, france will either have reelected the pro european union centers president emmanuel macron, or it will have elected a new leader. the radical right wing anti immigrant racist murray le pen. what you are experiencing is déjà vu. these same candidates faced off in 2017, macron handily walking away with the victory with the country behind him. well le pen held firm to her failed political conservative identity. but this time around, things look a little bit different. polls show a much tighter race between the two candidates. macron's approval ratings have dipped as the war in ukraine has dragged on, and gas prices have gone up. polls show that some voters see the once fresh faced newcomer as being out of touch. and a quote, president for the risk. le pen, who has defined a foreign presence in france for two generations, is notoriously anti immigrant and nationalistic. she has been the face of the national front political party, which used to be viewed as extreme, belligerent, and unpalatable. well outside the french mainstream. but just like america, france is experiencing a shift in politics and identity. and now, in le pen's third bid for power, she is trying to soften her image a little bit. focusing on issues like the economy in the white rising cost of living, which has paid off since the war in ukraine has led to an increase in the price of fuel and other goods. but this popular's shift in economic policies does not mean that le pen has let go of her extreme ideas. she is still the same anti immigrant nationalists that she has always been. but there is a burgeoning political right in france, who does not seem to mind. and it seems like a relevant time to remind you that marie le pen has long admired vladimir putin. they are running for president in 2017, she said that her own policies were represented by president trump and putin. despite the ongoing war in ukraine, the pen, if elected, would like to reduce payments and legal deference to the european union. and two and francis senior relationship with nato. last time that happened in france was 1966. and it took until 2009 for france to regain its senior leadership in nato. looking at this from afar, it might seem like the idea of a le pen presidency is simply unheard of. and a far cry from reality based on recent french history. however, as americans who lived through the 2016 election, we know that unheard of can very quickly, in a day, become reality. coming up next, russia has rejected requests for a truce in ukraine for this holy day. it is orthodox easter today. we are 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[ sighs heavily ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive helps protect what you've built with affordable coverage. >> today if easter sunday in the eastern orthodox christian tradition. however, it won't offer any reprieve from the brutal war in ukraine as russia rejected the ukrainian offer of a holiday truce. amid the ongoing fighting, the u.s. defense secretary lloyd austin in the u.s. secretary of state antony blinken are set to be the highest ranking american officials to visit the country since the start of the war. that's according to the ukrainian president, volodymyr zelenskyy. american officials have not confirmed a visit, but if it does happen, or if it is happening now, it would be the highest level visit by an american delegation since the start of the war. joining me now is nbc's raf sanchez, live from lviv, ukraine. raf, what do we know about this expected visit and how it came about which we should expect and if it's even happening? >> well, ali, we expect to see pictures that some, point maybe the next few minutes, maybe the next few hours, of secretary of state blinken and secretary of state defense austin in the first face to face meeting with american officials that president zelenskyy has had since russia invaded his country. but, as you alluded, to this trip has been organized in utmost secrecy. the pentagon, the state department giving very few details. we are not clear when and where this is happening. it is possible that the secretary's to senior members of biden's cabin, we'll visit bucha or borodyanka, the sites of those alleged massacres. committed by russian forces. presidential he says he wants to talk about what he always wants to talk about, weapons, weapons, weapons. he wants to know what the u.s. is going to deliver and when. crucially, when it will be delivered. ali, this has been a visit the long time in the making. for the last two weeks we have seen near daily trips to kyiv by european leaders, but this will be the first trip by senior american officials. now, president zelenskyy has said that he would like president biden to come to kyiv at some point. but that is considered too risky at this stage, and that risk is underscored by that deadly missile strike in odessa yesterday. it killed eight people, including a young mother named valerie and her three month old baby daughter, named kira. ali, if you do the grim math here, carol was born on january 4th, the war in her country broke out on february 24th and she died on april 24th. so, more than half of her short life was spent in vladimir putin's war, before her life was brought to an end by one of vladimir putin's missiles. ali? >> just another picture of the horrors of the war. raf, thanks as always for joining us. will of course be back with you shortly, and if there are any developments there with respect to the two secretaries, the secretary of state the secretary of defense, we're going to come right back to rafts and chives. joining me now is bill browder, the head of -- the global magnets he just his campaign which seeks to get sanctions imposed on violation abusers and corrupt governments around the world. he's the author of a brand-new one important book, the freezing order, a true story of money laundering, murder and surviving vladimir putin's wrath. which details his life as a target of russian officials since the mid 2000s. bill, good to see you. i think it's really important to mention that there are things in your book, your first book, read notice, that flew under the radar for some people. and then they read, it and it was the first time people understood what had happened in post soviet russia. how people got enriched, how these oligarchs became the oligarchs that they are. they're such remarkable, granular detail about the fact that people got stop and they did know what to do with, it because they didn't have enough money. so, people would buy that stop and people got rich. but in the process, vladimir putin got rich to and he developed a hold over these oligarchs and his power emerged into economic control, in addition to absolute political power. vladimir putin is to russia like virtually no other leader is to their country, except maybe kim jong-un. >> well, in a certain way i would argue that there is nothing that even comes close to replicating vladimir putin. he's not just an all or dark, he's an organized crime figure. , basically you have a mafia boss who has stolen, and who's had the opportunity for 20 years as a head of state, to steal everything he could get his hands on from the russian government. along with the people who surround him. if you look at the amount of money that's been stolen by putin, and the thousand people around, him i estimate it to be about a trillion dollars. that number, a trillion dollars, 1000 billion dollars. that number is what's driving putin to do everything that he is doing today. that money should've been spent on public services, health care and so on. instead it was spent on yachts and villas and private jets. as a, result people have become angry over the last 22 years. and anything, any small thing, could have set them off. and i believe the reason why putin invaded ukraine is not because of nato, not because of a grand mission of the soviet union, but because he needed to stay in power. and the best way for a dictator to stay in power is to distract its people, his people, and start a war. and i think that's what this is all about. that also, then, informed us about how we have to deal with this guy. it's not like we can just give him non-nato involvement of ukraine and that's going to solve the problem, he needs to be at war. >> let me ask you something. the book read notice, it's a turn many people don't know. it's when our country is looking to arrest someone and they ask interpol to get involved, so that if you cross into any country interpol sees your passport and says you are arrested, you have a red notice. a few years ago there was an error, you are in spain i believe, and someone actually did arrest you. two weeks ago, on april 10th, i interviewed vladimir caro moshe, he had gone back to moscow, an opposition leader. i told him at the end of that interview that i feared for his safety. the very next day he was arrested. in your book, you write, on page one 76, about a 2015 incident in which you say that the day before the sergei minutes key human right ceremony vladimir putin came to our office. he hobbled off with a, kane his shoulders stooped, he was 30 pounds lighter than when i last seen in. but while he was physically reduced i could tell from the clinton as i he was more determined than ever to carry on with his mission to get justice for boris sergei and many other victims of the putin regime. you then go on to say vladimir camera, the good russian, had come under the care of a doctor, another good russian, and that made all the difference. he's facing 15 years in jail for saying on, air on our show, that the war in ukraine is a war and it is an invasion and that is a blatant violation of new russian law. what happens now? >> well, so, vladimir carol moos is who we should all hope for, that all russians thing can do. he was ready to stand up for vladimir putin. i was wetland mayor in london just before he went to moscow, we went to dinner together. just to fill everyone in, they tried to poison him twice and kill him twice in moscow before. i said, vladimir, don't go, i'll kill you. he said to, me how can i be a political leader, asking the russian people to stand up to vladimir putin, and be afraid to go to my own country? i can't morally, it's impossibly morally for me to not go back. and, so he goes back and, as you said, he was on your show calling the war a war and calling putin a killer. and then he's arrested. they have a law now that says anyone who describes their war as a war faces 15 years in jail, and they want to make him the poster child of this law. so, he has now become the, one of the two, most high-profile political prisoners in russia. alexei navalny and himself. we should do everything in the west to make them pay for themselves. they're trying to tell russians that if you speak out you will be arrested. but we're trying to show is that they speak out they will face consequences. one of the consequences that they should face and will, face vladimir kara-murza was with me lobbying for something called the magnitsky act, which freezes the assets of these people. every single person who had been involved in his arrest, the judge is the prosecutors, etc, should be immediately placed on the magnitsky list in canada, the united states in the eu. just as an indication to the put regime that, if they do this type of, think there is a price to be paid for every single person involved. >> i was deeply worried, and i said that to him in moscow. that this would happen. i'm worried, largely because of that whole story that you just said. about the magnitsky act. the magnitsky act is named after sergei magnitsky, your lawyer, who how do you uncover this information that made you an enemy in russia. vladimir putin spoke about you in helsinki, when he was with donald trump. he wanted you traded, he want the americans to give you up to the russians. vladimir putin and his people had sergei magnitsky killed in russian custody. >> they've had sergei magnitsky killed, they have boris names, of the forest for former leader of the opposition, killed. his former protegee tried to kill, they didn't succeed. another, man nikolai baroque, of was thrown off a five story building. and many other people have been killed for calling for justice for sergei magnitsky, for exposing corruption, and now they're killing people for just calling this war a war. this is no different than the stalin purges. vladimir putin isn't evil dictator, and he will do everything he can to shut everybody up because he's so afraid that if the truth comes out the russian people will rise up. >> i'm curious, just because we're doing the banned book club today. are your books banned in russia? >> yeah, absolutely banned in russia. my first book was banned. we are translating freezing order into russian, we're giving it away for free on the internet. i should say, one other banned book place. germany, nobody in germany is ready to publish my book either. my book was the number one new york times bestseller this week and we can't find a single german publisher who wants to touch it. they are also involved in compromised by russia and germany, that we can't find a german publisher. >> wow. >> it's that amazing? >> that as a whole another piece of texture to the velshi banned book club, you're now an honorary guest of it. bill, thanks. i can't tell my viewers enough, read bill browder's books. you will understand what is going on russia today, why it is where it is today, and what this man on my screen is gone through. bill browder is the author of freezing order, a brand-new book. it's a true story of money laundering, murder and surviving vladimir putin's wrath. he's also the author of red, notice a true story of high finance murder and one man's fight for justice. buy them both. hey, they're both banned books. bill, stay safe, i know they're after you to. bill bratton. >> this is my first weekend back hosting velshi in new york city after being in hungary, poland and ukraine. someone who you're no doubt familiar with now, terrell jermaine, star who help tirelessly helping people escape ukraine to safety joins me live on set. me live on set you try crazy things... ...because you're crazy... ...and you like it. you get bigger... ...badder... ...faster. ♪ you can never have too much of a good thing... and power is a very good thing. ♪ bipolar depression. it made me feel trapped in a fog. this is art inspired by real stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression 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don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren, or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. ♪ ♪ when you order the all new deluxe three cheese and bacon omelette, you get a smile on your plate. only from ihop. join the rewards program and earn double pancoins with any omelette purchase. as many of you know i just got back from five weeks of reporting on the war in ukraine in eastern europe. while i was there i relied heavily a the expertise of people in journalists who were on the ground. one of those journalists were quickly grew to respect and admire was terrell jermaine star. his ability to get close to the people and capture the challenges of a rushed escape were instrumental to our reporting this first draft of history. here is a look back at some of the perspectives he was able to share with us. >> joining me now is terrell jermaine starr. who has become a new best friend itv. >> it is a very surreal situation. we are on the road to lviv right. now a trip that would normally take six hours. or if it was a charade, which is about 12 hours, is taking several days now. we have arena here who we are taking. she is undergoing cancer treatment, and so the hospital where she was getting treatment asked her to leave because they needed to make room for people who have been wounded during the war. >> coming again on the show, arena is safe and sound. and doing this. one of the things that i am learning about the refugee crisis is the people with disabilities, for example. it is very difficult for people who are mobile, people who were wheelchair bound, to get forward or hospital they, are whoever their homes are, to the water. ukraine even before the war was not handicap excess-able. i -- think [inaudible] i came here as a journalist, did not expect whatsoever to -- >> i see myself more as over walter cronkite. as far as somebody who i emulate. who was as i was i want to follow. because ultimately, if i am telling stories, people are asking, can i help, i do it. >> all of these, we have talked about through the screen. but look at this. today, he is right here. terrell jermaine star. you and i have a lot to talk about. we are going to take a quick break so we can do. it don't go anywhere. terrell jermaine starr. right after this. right after this i'm mark and i live in vero beach, florida. my wife and i have three children. ruthann and i like to hike. we eat healthy. we exercise. i noticed i wasn't as sharp as i used to be. my wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said "yeah, i'll try it out." i noticed that i felt sharper, i felt like i was able to respond to things quicker. and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. i may be close to retirement, but i'm as busy as ever. and thanks to voya, i'm confident about my future. voya provides guidance for the right 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[crowd cheers] voya. be confident to and through retirement. joining me now is today after weeks of us reporting from eastern europe is terrell jermaine starr. he is the founder and host of the black diplomats podcast. he's a nonresident senior fellow at the atlantic councils eurasia center, specializing u.s. russia relations. i was warned i we were in the same place in lviv. but it was curfew. so we cannot actually made. it's horrible, there are so many matters i want to discuss with you. but how are you? you saw every part of this war. you were a reporter, you are a rescue worker. did it trouble you that you are blurring the lines? increasingly a troubles at all us all last. there are people, they need help, you have to help. >> i was. reporting but it was also human. being which is most important. independent journalist. i had the man within the freedom to do about. and i think that i achieved both in my own little way and so right now i think the best thing that happened with my work which i will continue to do when i return to ukraine in july, is it a relay to bring a human element to the story. and also, this is such a complex issue. and the manner in which i storyteller and draw parallels helps to understand. i think that is the goal of the work for most people. >> how big is the group of black journalists who specialize and things like this? >> oh boy. you know what, very few. and i'm pretty sure that there are some out there. sometimes we don't know who each other -- all we all know each other. but probably a handful. because it is a very difficult feeling. you have to be the type of person, regardless of what your races. and so. there is not been a lot of approved meant of people of color. if the helped style stories. >> is it important? keep it will come to you and, say i did not think that is a thing -- that >> every single day. i have people in ukraine that woke up to, me which was kind of strange. it is kind of like being a celebrity, almost. saying, terrell, keep doing what you are doing. and with the strangest i don't feel like a cater to anyone else. like temple my town rhetoric or anything. so a wide range of people who were like-minded, like my experience, including a large number of ukraine to called me a social media. >> what ukrainians. >> what ukrainians, absolutely. people aren't even black. >> when i was my first night in europe. i was a train station people were getting. off their worst present number of black people getting off. south asian people. they study in kharkiv. ukraine has a lot of universities. it is a low cost of living place. a lot of people go from african insolation to get their education there. there is a larger black and brown population there than one might assume. you did a lot of reporting about the fact that, in some cases, they were not being treated like everybody else. >> absolutely. what is unfortunate about any war in tragedy like this, is that whatever issues that existed before, whether the property, racism, during the war the first 7 to 10 days, you definitely saw a lot of racism at the border, a lot of passport privilege. a lot of these dynamics taking place after the 7 to 10 days tampering down. here is another important thing. racism doesn't just and at the border. i have a lot of people who i know personally who say there is a difference between racism in the country that they go to win in western europe. because in their view, they are not welcomed as warmly as the white ukrainians. and sometimes they get racism from fellow ukrainian refugees themselves. all the time they do not want to speak out because they are afraid of being attacked on social media etc. there are a lot of stories that we don't know about, unfortunately, in this particular instance. >> some of the things are under the radar. i was in hungary, where it is not under the radar. they're the government there is a really racist. >> [laughs] >> let's talk about the coverage of these ukrainians. i think it has been exemplary. i think the western response to these refugees has been really really strong. that is not the case for all refugees. there are a lot of work, rhymes genocides, people being oppressed around the world, and we are not all opening hurdles all that what the rest the world. >> well, listen. i think when you see all of this white faces, and i think that you have to really deal with the biases that we carry. i know that with me, being somebody who is literally help these families get across the border, i care about this country. >> what ukrainians. >> i hope anyone. but i think it is personally clear that when you look at the batters in which people around the world have been treated, there is a major disparity. and the only reason you could look at it, it does come down to race. here's another key thing to. it it is easy to point out russia, the obvious about guy. but, then sometimes a lot of these refugee crisis are taking place around the country that is because of westerners, western countries, united states like others. who creates a narrative pointing a finger at america. a lot of people don't want to do that because it causes flux. >> one thing that is important is you are not suggesting that anybody should change how well we treat the ukrainians. we are just saying, can we bring everybody to the same level? >> exactly. that is what i am saying. listen. i am helping every single person. i don't care about the ethnicity of the person in ukraine. so i want to keep doing it. when i go back in july, i will keep doing. it would also like to see is more of the support that goes out to people who are in syria and other countries. in which western powers have created the problems. >> after everything you are doing, we will of course be talking to lots and lots and lots. terrell jermaine star, who i believe is learning to speak ukrainian. >> taking in the tens of, course going back in, july. yes >> dirrell is a nonresident senior law at the atlantic eurasia center. he's the founder and host of the black diplomats podcast. we will be right back. will be right back. riders! let your queries be known. yeah, hi. instead of letting passengers wrap their arms around us, could we put little handles on our jackets? -denied. -can you imagine? i want a new nickname. can you guys start calling me snake? no, bryan. -denied. -how about we all get quotes to see if we can save with america's number one motorcycle insurer? approved. cool! hey, if bryan's not gonna be snake, can i be snake? -all: no. leave it for the governor ron desantis is to destroy the country culture war with the happiest place on earth. he punished disney for speaking out against his so-called don't say gay bill. which bans lessons about generated sexual orientation from some great school classrooms. desantis signed the bill stripping disney of its status as an independent special district. critics say this could impose steep tax implications on florida residents where the theme park is located. this is actually just one of several matters that desantis has seen in recent weeks, that will hurt florida constituents and threaten their rights. he recently signed a 15-week abortion ban into law. he stated a new congressional. map which he dropped himself, giving republicans a major advantage, and lately diluting the voting powers of black voters. beside another bill, the stop woke act. here woke stands for wrongs to our kids and employees. which i find quite creative. it restricts the ways that race is discussing classroom and adult workplace diversity training programs. here's the thing. despite all of his goofy politics, ron desantis is a potential 2024 front-runner for the republican nomination for president. he is actually got a pathway to the presidency. and it is the latest example of a path in which the republican party is heading. i want to talk about this summer with frank lets, he is a political analyst, communications consultant, and the pollster. he is a guy who has paid travis thumb on the pulse of these types of political calculations. frank, it is good to see. you thank you for joining. us it is wildly early where you are. in california. so, we are unusually grateful. i just want to ask you about ron desantis's politics, and what he is doing right now. from your perspective, as a guy who follows these trends, does this make sense for ron desantis is doing? >> for the governor, it does make sense. but he is trying to use cultural issues, which are important, with the upcoming terms. only six or seven months away. with the nomination for 2024, that will begin as soon as these november elections are finished. and desantis is using cultural issues as a way to gather public attention. we are doing a show right, now a segment on him. and it is having an impact. its numbers are going higher and higher within republican primary voters. in fact, if donald trump does not run, governor desantis is the front runner. the number one candidate for the nomination. and, as a pollster, but first and foremost as an american who doesn't like to see these kinds of cultural divisions, literally rocking this country, on both sides, it is very upsetting to me that this issue, disney versus desantis, it should not be that way. there should be a way for individuals within corporations to have a voice. to be able to speak up and be heard. the public does not want companies engaging in politics. but they welcome individuals as voters, as a citizens, to be engaged. and for desantis, he has the right to point out the differences between him and the democrats. but there is a good way to do it, that leads to a positive outcome, and there is a bad way to do it that leads to more division. and i just wish that there was some, way with the left in the, right where they could agree that these are legitimate issues, which deserve to be discussed. but do not try to on the other side. >> let's talk about ron desantis and his political aspirations. there are lot of people who want to be president. ron desantis is the governor. governors have a real ability, sometimes, to be able to push forward and say that unlike some others they can actually get things done, they have legislation that they can sign. is ron desantis, does he have a path to the presidency? >> absolutely. florida is a key state. it is been turning republican over the last decades. florida has every aspect. urban, suburban. -- and rural. it has republican pockets, democratic pockets. immigrants. it is one of those representative states. frankly if i was advising the democratic national committee i would tell them there is no other state to start the electoral process in 2024 than florida. that said, it's has set a tone for the rest of the country and the divisiveness that is coming out is an indication of what is happening all across america. >> i want to switch gears frank. i have been talking about ukraine a lot. you had a focus group, this is what you do. you specialize in. it you a ten or 11 students from ten different countries. let me just play a little bit about what you heard about the situation in ukraine. >> what's certain countries are doing, without suffering any consequences, is teaching a lesson to other countries that they could do horrible things without suffering any consequences at all. >> there are people who are losing their family, friends, loved. once just a priority, those priorities that are placed in the same level, but are so different. >> everyone has a right to leave. you have a right to leave. nobody has the right to take it, the for their personal reason. we all have to do what we can. >> frank, i'm coming up to the top of the hour. i love these focus groups to do. give me your 32nd takeaway from that great conversation. >> those, students from all across the, globe have had it with violence. they've had it with this senseless destruction in ukraine. they are committed to finding some kind of peaceful resolution, and this is a different kind of war. the world population has its eyes on what's vladimir putin is doing, and they are scared but they are angry and they expect the west to stand up and do something. because they want to end the suffering, and they see their own people getting killed, their own young people. and they're begging the world to listen up and act. >> frank, thank you as always for your time. we appreciate it. getting up early to this conversation with me. greg luntz is a communications analyst in a poster. don't go away, coming up next a new update from ukraine where they say russia is continuously