(somber music) - [reporter 1] 20 year old swimming star brock turner - [reporter 2] the 19 year old former high school all-american swimmer - [reporter 3] the star swimmer at stanford university - [reporter 4] contender for the olympics - [reporter 5] raping an unconscious woman - [reporter 6] intoxicated and unconscious woman - [reporter 7] passed out behind a dumpster - [reporter 8] drunk behind a stanford dumpster (somber music) - [chanel miller] your honor, if it is all right, i would like to address the defendant directly. you don't know me, but you've been inside me and that's why we're here today. - the victim made headlines by releasing a heart wrenching letter detailing the rape and its aftermath. - [reporter] it's gotten over 15 million views on buzzfeed alone. - you don't know me, but you've been inside me. - and that's why we're here today. - i was found unconscious with my hair disheveled, long necklace wrapped around my neck. - my bare skin and head had been rubbing against the ground behind a dumpster while an erect freshman was humping my half naked, unconscious body. - i read that according to him, i liked it. - your damage was concrete, stripped of titles, degrees, enrollment. my damage was internal, unseen. - i kept thinking to myself, the court system doesn't deserve her. - even if you win the battle of proving the case in court, you still have to convince a judge that a stiff prison sentence is appropriate. - [reporter 1] turner faced up to 14 years in prison and he got six months. - [reporter 2] a slap on the wrist for a privileged white sexual offender at an elite university. - my first response was, wow, that doesn't sound right. that must be white privilege going on here. - because of good behavior in prison, turner was released this morning after just three months behind bars. - we have got to fight for a world without rape. it's time to take a stand. what has happened here is unacceptable. - there's new pressure tonight aimed at removing that california judge. - [reporter] sir? - [reporter] aaron persky is coming under fire. - [crowd] fire aaron persky, fire aaron persky. - [reporter] activists have targeted judge persky through a recall election. - we need judges who understand sexual assault and domestic violence. judge persky does not. (crowd cheers) - people widely recognize that women who have been victimized by men have not received justice. - people have just had enough. they've had enough of women being marginalized. - [reporter] the numbers are in. 62% of the voters recalling judge persky. - [reporter] persky is the first california judge recalled since 1932 and what was also viewed as one of the first electoral tests of the #metoo movement. - when a fire is started, and i think of this the anger over this case, as a kind of fire, a lot of things are gonna get burned. (somber music) - before i became district attorney, i was a deputy district attorney for 15 years. one of the concepts within justice is holding someone accountable for what they have done. - [reporter] frustrated prosecutors say this isn't justice. - i had hoped for more time. we fought for more time. the victim deserved more time. (somber music) i felt that i had failed chanel. i disagreed with the sentence. and i told judge persky that. a lot of the campus sexual assault cases had been boiling over and may have not gone the way that the public wanted. so a lot of people were surprised that i opposed the recall. - i thought the recall was wrong. i can very strongly support women's rights and work vigorously to uphold the dignity of women, and i can support the independence of judges. the judge in this case had the legal right to make the decision that he made. i think that it was the wrong decision, but the law allowed him to make that decision. what if that judge is deciding whether these abortion regulations are lawful? and the judge is in a place where a lot of people don't like abortion? do you want the judge to say, i'm living in kansas, and so i know what people here think, so i'm gonna do what they want? you want the judge to follow the law. - judge persky was fair in his rulings during trial. and we looked to whether we could appeal the sentence, but we realized quickly that the sentence was legal. the judge had the discretion to sentence that way. the probation department recommended it. if we were to recall every judge we disagree with, we would have no judges. - judging is the best job in the world and the worst job in the world. all of the drama of the human experience is played out in a courtroom. these are photos when i started judging in 1982. and this was a big day, i mean there'd never been a black woman judge in northern california, ever. i consider myself a feminist. and feminism to me means i am aware of and care about issues that impact women. "persky recall celebrated as a win for girls and women." it was no such thing. when i found out who the judge was, aaron persky, i began reading transcripts, the probation report, and that's when i said, wait a minute, put the brakes on here. the community, the public, the media is being misled. and those of us who know this need to speak out. (light piano music) - i'm jeff rosen, the district attorney of santa clara county. my office prosecutes sexual assault. - i've sentenced people convicted of sexual assault. - [da rosen] vote no recall of judge persky. - judge persky's bias is a threat to the rule of law. - the idea of racial bias. - laws against sexual violence mean nothing if the judges who enforce them are biased like judge persky. - there was an effort to say no, this wasn't a one off. this is a pattern with him. - so they cherry picked five cases out of the hundreds and hundreds of cases he heard over 10 years. those cases were all plea bargains. - these are situations where the prosecution and the defense reached an agreement on the sentence. i think those are much different than the kind of case we had with brock turner. - the judge, the role we play, we get presented the plea bargain. and if the plea bargain is not violative of the law, we approve the plea bargains. now, sometimes judges bust a plea, but it rarely happens because it's a deal. the guardian, they do this big story. says "raul ramirez to be sentenced to three years in prison for a case with similarities to the stanford sexual assault case for which brock turner will servsentence raul ramirez.t ramirez was a plea bargain. judge persky was not the judge who accepted the plea bargain and he was not the sentencing judge. but to the recall people, it didn't matter. - judge persky has shown a clear bias in favor of men of privilege, in favor of people who abuse women, rape women, and were asking that the commission on judicial performance, take action to remove judge persky. - the commission on judicial performance. the body that disciplines judges if they misbehave, if they engage in misconduct, did a thorough investigation into judge persky, into his track record, into the five cases alleged by the recall people to show bias, as well as his handling of the brock turner case. - [reporter] the commission on judicial performance cleared him of wrongdoing and found no clear evidence of bias or misconduct with his ruling. - there was no bias. it wasn't even a close case. - i absolutely think that white privilege informed the brock turner case, but in ways that are complicated. the sentencing guidelines recognize that he was a college student, that people saw with potential, with no record. and this stands in contrast to how this system would see a 19 year old black kid from a poor neighborhood who's a defendant. increasing sentencing, broadening the definitions of crimes prosecuting more people, we all have this imagination that it will get at the powerful, privileged criminal offenders. but criminal law doesn't equalize the world. criminal law does the opposite. criminal law exacerbates inequality. hi, my name is aya gruber. i am a professor at the university of colorado law school. and i really want to explore the role that the feminist movement has played in our current state of racialized mass incarceration. this feminist sensibility often has translated into tough on crime laws, and i've heard this a lot from feminists, right? we can be even prison abolitionists everywhere else, but not for sexual violence. that they don't have a general pro tough on crime community value, but they have a general pro tough on sex crime community value. ♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. a ballet studio, an architecture firm... and homemade barbeque sauce. they're called 'small businesses.' but to the people who build them there's nothing 'small' about them. that's why at t-mobile for business... you'll save more than $1,000 versus verizon. and with price lock guarantee, we'll never raise your rate plan. so you can keep your focus on toe-turns and making sure the sauce is extra spicy. at t-mobile, there are no small businesses. ♪♪ liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we tried electric unicycles. i think i've got it! doggy-paddle! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ (vo) when you love the environment, you work to protect it. only pay for what you need. the subaru solterra electric suv. subaru's first all-electric, zero-emissions suv. 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(metal door shuts) - our norm is prison. that's what's been imposed on us as communities of color. i think about my community's values, values of rehabilitation and that incarceration in the prisons and the jails are not the only solutions to it. (light music) as a participatory defense organizer at de-bug, i and a lot of other people support families who are facing the criminal or juvenile or immigration systems. (light music) (people chattering in background) and we walk families through that system to impact the outcomes of their cases, and transform the landscape of power in the courts. how long has he been in there? - 15 years. see, i didn't know how many pictures i should have brought, so i just brought a whole bunch. - so we could show his life before that. - yeah. has he thought about the commutation stuff? - yeah. - i opposed the recall, because i felt that it was a misguided solution. the recall equated accountability with long sentences, an increase in mass incarceration. the way that the families at de-bug talked about the recall, versus the way that maybe the legal community and politicians talked about recall were two different conversations all together. (somber music) - judges in california and beyond are concerned about getting persky'd. - as soon as the recall was announced, an empirical study found that sentences in california immediately increased by 30%. (somber music) - and the effect wasn't on the next brock turner. it was on the young people of color that come in through our doors at de-bug. - embedded within the american criminal legal system is a whole cascade of biases, starting from where the police are deployed, to which cases the prosecutors will take, to who gets convicted or is overcharged to plea, to the amount of sentencing they get. long sentences disproportionately affect people who are nothing like brock turner. - the people who suffer the most are low income and people of color. (melancholy music) - we've seen judges stare families down in the face and say "i'm going to take your loved one away from you." those are the kind of judges who should be questioned. like who use incarceration as the first and only resort. mass incarceration separates families. our homes, our streets, our neighborhoods our schools are drained of parents, of children, of grandparents who should be together with families. instead, they have to form a relationship behind a glass. - there is this basic moral instinct that somebody who does wrong should have consequences for that. - [reporter 1] former stanford swimmer brock turner was sentenced to just six months in jail. - serving just half his jail term. - [reporter 2] three months of a six month sentence. - i've got bad dye jobs that last longer than three months. - that is the type of sentence you get for a sack of weed. for raping someone, it's another pass that they're giving him. - the media uniformly covered this as a case of under punishment, as a slap on the wrist. brock turner was convicted of felony sexual assault. he was sent to jail. he was placed on a registry. - he has to register as a sex offender for the rest of his life. he is restricted in where he can live, work, with whom he can associate. - if you don't know somebody who's been on a registry, if you have no relation to that, then you might imagine that this is nothing. (somber music) - there's no one more vocal in defensive of chanel than i am but the recall's not the right way to protect future victims of sexual assault and prevent another brock turner from happening. - we need to shift our frame in thinking about how to deal, not just even with violence against women, but all kinds of violences, dysfunctions, social problems. - the energy and the kind of anger that really came through in the recall was to quench the public's thirst for punishment. (dramatic music) and for vengeance. do we want a legal system that does that? hell no. if we look historically, it was people of color and low income people who got slammed in the courts. as a feminist, that's not what i think the feminist movement should be about. - it wasn't that brock turner didn't deserve the kind of careful analysis that the judge gave him. it's that everyone does. - [crowd] (chanting) what do we do? stand up, fight back. while black men are under attack. (crowd chanting in background) - [police officer] this assembly is unlawful. you are ordered to disperse. - [prof gruber] today we have a real opening, because of the tireless work of racial justice, grassroots advocates, but other forces can push back on that momentum. - close rikers now. - one of them can be when feminists who are rightly and importantly seeking sexual justice, when they valorize that system of harsh punishment, all the public work that's been done to see that system for what it is can fade. (somber music) seeking harsh sentences within our mass incarceration system is just a poor way to try to bend the moral arc towards justice. 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>> well, i think it is startin with asking the person who had the harm from brock turner what would havebeen justice? mental health support? would it have been, you know some kind of apology and admittance of what he did? you know, and in addition to potentially prison time. but the way that our system is set up, it doesn't take into consideration the, even for th victims, the survivors, what i necessary for healing them >> would it have been more tha six months >> i mean, in some ways that i a question that, you know, i certainly can't answer i don't know what th appropriate time is for this particular offense but i think we need to chang what the conversation is about, again,, what is healing in what is justice >> there are a lot o individuals in the legal syste in california, i was i california at the time when al of this was going down there are a number of people who said, this was a fai sentence like, there was a pre sentence report from the probatio department, this was saddene one who had no prior crimina record and a six month sentenc was within that range. like, here are a couple of legal experts in california at the time talking about this, and talking about his sentence do >> you want the jets just say, i am living in kionte's and so i know what people here think, so i i'm going to d what they want do you want the judge to follo the law? >> he was fairness ruling fo the trial. we look to whether we coul appeal the sentence, but w realized quickly that th sentence was illegal the judge had the discretion t sentence that way. >> what do you make of that? i mean, this was someone who hadn't been a prior offender and there is a lot to say abou what happened here, but some people felt that this wasn't enough then there are some that was saying was exactly right >> yeah. i think there are a valid, wid range of valid ways to fee about the sentence but the outrage that i think i so critical and so critical to talk about is the disparity in sentencing is what a white, privilege college kid got versus what lo income and people of color get so i genuinely believe tha there were well-intentione folks who were driving the recall who are angry about thes disparities in sentencing. but what we need to talk about was that recalling a judge didn't have the effect the wanted it to on attacking whit privilege. it had the counter effect. so i think we really need to step back and ask hard questions when we demand longe prison sentences about who i is going to affect >> and in addition, othe people who commit crimes should get the same kind o consideration. and low income, people of colo who are mostly through the, in the criminal justice system, should receive the same kind o consideration. you know, are these first-time offenders? what effect will it have o their lives? you know, and so, it is not th fact the brought turner got it it is that everyone should get that consideration, which is - >> but judge persky was know to be lenient. the problem, as some researchers found, is that his leniency tended to come out in cases involving sexual assault not in other areas of the law. how do you balance that kind o record against the sort of broader social amelia, when we are really, finally starting t sake sexual assault and victim seriously? >> yeah. percy had a record where h sentenced in line with the probation department so the biases you see in thi system are systemic, they ar not specific to this person. >> is this about the low penalties for sexual assault not necessarily him having and giving low penalties for sexua salt >> i think that's right. and, that also we just continu to conflate punishment wit justice. instead of asking the harder questions that you were focuse on, on what justice looks like for survivors. >> should there be recalls a all? >> i personally don't thin there should i mean, we have seen a recal of trustee butane in san francisco after he was voted in, precisely to reform the justic system they are trying to recal krasner in philly. i believe, in l.a. as well and, i feel like, and this i my personal opinion, tha people get angry when they don't see changes quickly. and they feel, you know, i these cases with these prosecutors, that crime is they are suffering crime i their city is overrun with crime, which needs to be looke at to, at how real tha actually is and then there i lots of money that is put into recall people and say they are not doing the job that the should be doing. and it is much more comple than that, as we know. crime is much more complex and what these prosecutors these judges do, is only one piece of the very, as we said, systemic system. so i don't think recalls are a good idea. >> and we never recall judge who punish too lenient lee we only, sorry, we never recal judges who punished to charsley, only to lenient lee. and this is part of the crisis of mass incarceration. so no, i don't think there should be recalls. i don't think there used well, and i think they contribute to more years in prison and t entrenching ourselves in the - crisis >> has this later foundation where if you don't like what a judge is doing, you can simply put that judge on the ballot and put it to the voters because it seems like this i where it is going. we hear more about this -- all of this incident in th wake of judge persky >> yeah. we know that more voting doesn't necessarily mean mor democracy. it doesn't mean more democrati value. and so no, i don't think recalls are useful political tools to get us to justice >> as time goes on here, w have this wider understandin of what the me too movement ha become where do you see fitting int -- because you are both addressin and trying to excavate a different view of this history but you also seem to try to ge out of the kind of lens fo where we go from here. >> well, i think a lot of time in this country when we have these kinds of conversations it becomes very this or that black or white you know, punishment o leniency and we have to understand, a feminists, as women who want t stop sexual assaults, wh advocate for stopping sexual assault, we have to understand what, how to really do it. and what are the implication are the legal system i think i have cooper's as i right, criminal justice only - only exacerbates these inequalities so we actually can't just be single focused i think that we have seen ho that doesn't work, in so man ways and so as we advocate for meto and for accountability, an justice in sexual assault, w also have to look at the criminal justice system, which historically and still, come down most harshly on people of color and low income people it is an unfair system. if we don't deal with that, an having more laws that just put people in prison longer, tha is just not justice fo anybody. >> that really goes to what we want to take this conversation as we look ahead to what els can be done. professor murray and ian are here, during our - special conversation, rebecc -- are going to stay with us, wha we turn to is what we go forward. to the wider implications on this larger question o criminal justice for - stay with us ♪ ♪ no two dreams are the same. but there is one van equipped to handle them all. for over 120 years, mercedes-benz vans have been built, upfitted and ready to go. because we believe dreams - should never stay that way. i got into debt in college, and no matter how much i paid, it followed me everywhere. so i consolidated it into a low-rate personal loan from sofi. get a personal loan with low low fixed rates, and borrow up to $100k. sofi get your money right. when you have chronic kidney disease. there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. and here. not so much here. if you've been diagnosed with chronic kidney disease farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. farxiga can cause serious side effects including dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections in women and men, and low blood sugar. ketoacidosis is a serious side effect that may lead to death. a rare life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this bacterial infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. and don't take it if you are on dialysis. put yourself in the driver's seat. make an appointment to ask your doctor for farxiga for chronic kidney disease. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪far-xi-ga♪ why give your family just any eggs when they can enjoy the best? 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or were there other alternativ methods of punishment that might have been explored >> yeah. thank you. i want to just be 100% transparent and share that when i heard about rob turne sentencing i was outraged. because i knew that, you know, or at least a believed that ha he been a black man or a man o color and had the survivor bee a white women, the sentencin probably would have looked ver different. at the same time, as a survivo of childhood sexual abuse as well as rape and in college, i know that incarceration isn' going to stop rape and it is not necessarily goin to make me safe so i, for me i was holding the bold end o recognizing that it didn't fee like a fair sentencing, even though i am not in favor o course role responses to sexua -- any form of harm but i also empathized with everybody who was enraged abou his sentencing yeah >> so, judge cordell, aish makes a great point. if this was slightly different and this was a man of colo convicted of raping a whit women, we might have gotten an entirely different sentence. here is a clip from 2015 o then president barack obam talking about the ways in whic the criminal justice systems penalties are more likely to b visited on black and brown men >> the bottom line is that int many places, white boys an black men, latino boys and latino man, experience being treated differently under th law. it is not as fair as it should be mass incarceration makes our country worse off. and we need to do somethin about it any system that allows us to turn a blind eye t hopelessness and despair, that is not a justice system, it is an injustice system. >> george, this is a case no only made clear that there may actually be two very different systems of justice in th united states, but there may also be too different response to it. so this case really pitted o the one hand, traditiona mainstream feminists against black feminism so can you talk a little bit about how you saw this play ou in california? and the ways in which th concerns of black feminist were articulated, and ofte minimized? >> well, first of all, we ar fortunate, all of us, to have criminal legal system that i really based upon wonderfu principles the problem is in th implementation of thes principles we know that women, people o color, even white males were never the intended beneficiary of this wonderful principle. so our challenge has alway been and continues to be t make the system that was founded on exclusion inclusive and certainly, in my view, being more punitive will never get us there so, when it is asserted that the sentence that was given by judge persky would have been different had the defendan been of color, for example, take issue with that because what the judge did is what w want every judge to do and that is to give a carefu consideration to the individua who was before that judge. and that is exactly what judge persky did and that is what we want i think we all want to a syste where a judge give individualized attention t that particular person, to the victim, and to the circumstances of the crime and that is not what the recal ended up doing the recall ended up saying w really have a problem that the judge gave individualize approach and attention to mr turner no instead, they want to just throw the book at him and be more punitive. and mind you, that is not what we want. feminists don't want that, i a a feminist, i am an africa american, and that is th point. we want judges who did what th judge did in the turner case which is - >> can i interrupt for a minute can i interrupt? it's true. i think a lot of feminists wanted a sentence that considered the whole olympic aspects of the case, but you found yourself on opposing sides from stanford la professor michelle linda stopper who really wanted, and spearheaded, this recall effort she is a very well-known feminist law professor and you have articulated a strain of interest in the -- most closely identifies with black feminism did this case surface some fissures within the mainstream feminist legal movement that otherwise might have gon unexplored >> oh, it absolutely did there is no question that ther were feminists who took th position in the view that i di and in opposing the recall, an then there were those who took the position that there should be a recall, because they just wanted more punishment and if they couldn't get mor punishment for mr. turner, the wanted to take it out on the judge. and they did they were more punitive, thi judge lost his job and then there were those of u on the other side who said tha is not a system that we want because in the long term, when you have a recall, tha punishes adjusts for doing something that is lawful although controversial, you en up getting a system that i more punitive and those who ar the recipients of that punishment of that harsher system are generally going t be people of color and peopl of low income. let >> me jonge jump in an bring aisha and to this part o the conversation the -- movie refers to the idea tha we'll, when you have thi recall, other judges who w just showed, are overwhelmingl not representative of the whol community, but a lot of frankly, white guy judges then responde by being more punitive and w have been talking about that aisha, another piece of that, am curious about how you fee about this as an activist, for people in that movement, tha feminist blm et cetera, wh said well, they chose this fight. they said now, and bunch o white guy judges are reactin to it in that way. well, one response is, the don't control that and it doesn't take, if my reporting, recall or a special event for a lot of those peopl in those positions of power to act that way anyway. so i am curious, as we kind of take this seriously, the fil takes it seriously and we take it seriously today, what you say for those activists, as fellow activist who say, the had a point to make and it doesn't surprise them that the people who responded that way. i will make one more analogy as a thought experiment. there are people who thought fought for body camera t people respond by saying well, some of the police leadershi in the police unions, they hav a response to body cameras i double down and be worse but that doesn't mean if tha is their, and frankly, out o bounds an illegitimate respons -- it is tricky but given what the professor -- i am curious your reaction t all of the above then maybe the filmmakers will respond as well. >> i think i'm a littl confused around the question but i, mean, and i want to say that i am a feminist, established that i am survivor, i think that, i gues for me, i feel like when w have this conversation, ofte what gets lost is survivors an our needs. as a filmmaker and writer wh has documented so much of this specifically to black survivors, i think it is really the question of what does justic look like, what does healing i accountability look like so i think it is important, am not in favor of the recal at all i think it is very dangerous but, i think that what we need to do is begin to think abou what is healing an accountability and justice loo like and move beyond just thinking, frankly, myself, as someone wh -- responds to harm, move beyon only thinking about prisons in response to it i think that is part of th problem. that we don't have, we do have there are restored of justic and transformative justice opportunities out there, but most people don't know about that so for me, i am -- we are talking about recalling i also want to reframe the conversation about how the respond to harm. how we center survivors. >> for the filmmakers, the disses part of the problem - wrong response, let's say fo the sake of the argument the did, that alone doesn' necessarily cancel out wha those activists said they woul try to achieve so your thoughts >> i mean, i go back to th reframing. right? i know i share just talked about it but, the activists who wer recalling, who called for th recall, right, they were pushing for a longer sentences that is what the motivatio was. i too, like aisha, i also, whe rebecca first tell me abou this project, my initial thing was, yeah, i remember bein outraged about this ligh sentencing so as women, and many people we were, there is a visceral you know, visceral thing of th sky wasn't punished enough for this horrible deed h committed. but when you understand, hopefully this film will b part of opening, getting peopl to open up the conversation, when you understand what tha actually means in terms of who it comes down on, harshe sentences and the fact tha justice, this idea of justic has not been, is not served by our system you know >> these are big questions which the film explores. because of our time constraints, that is where we leave this. you can see it right on th screen that many experts and perspectives we have which w are thankful for, this was a msnbc presentation of th recall re-framed thanks to everyone, rebecc richmond cohen, you rebut -- judge cordell, aysha simmons and my, as we say, co host professor murray can also find us on the beac at 6 pm eastern if you are looking for more coverage -- keep it locked on msnbc. defeat allergy headaches fast with new flonase headache and allergy relief! two pills relieve allergy headache pain? 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