released audio of an interview of donald trump by jonathan carl. it shows the ex-president knew full well the power he had over the mob that stormed the capitol. just take a listen. >> but if you look a the real size of that crowd, i was never reported correctly. there were the biggest crowd i've ever spoken in front of by far, really, by far, that went down to the washington -- that went back to the washington mo. >> you told them you were going to g up to the capitol. were you just -- >> i was going to a the secret service said you can't. and by the time i would have and wanted to go back, i was thinking about going back during doing it myself.top the problem secret service didn't like that idea too much. so i've done that. and you know what, i would have been very well received. don't forget, the peopl that went to washington that day in my opinion, they went because they thought the election was rigged. that's why they went. >> trump's desire to go to the capitol was flushed out in incredible detail by the january 6th select committee. white house aide cassidy hutchinson testified trump was irate when the secret service said he couldn't go to the capitol. >> the president said something to the effect of i'm the effing press, take me up to the capitol now. to which he responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up toward the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel, mr. engle grabbed his arm, said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel, we're going back to the west wing, we're not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge toward bobby engel and the story was recounted to me, he motioned toward his clavicles. >> if donald trump felt comfortable joining a mob that he reportedly knew was armed to the teeth, it was because he knew they were there because of him. here is january 6th rioter steven aris. >> i was hanging on every word he was saying, everything he was putting out i was following it. i mean, if i was doing it, hundreds of thousands or millions of other people are doing it, maybe even still doing it. >> so, if the former president would have been, quote, well received by the rioters, as he himself put it, it follows that he could have called off the mob. instead, whatappened was what the january 6th select committee called 187 minutes of dereliction. 187 minutes after hispeech at the ellipse at white house, he posted a video on twitter calling for the mob to go home. during which trump did nothing to stop the violence. the comments a reminder of how the brutal violence at the capitol is an integral part of the story of january 6th. part of the criminal case against donald trump. the overseeing the federal election interference case weighing in on this very issue today, judge tanya chutkan rejecting trump's bid to get references to the riot removed from the jack smith indictment. and breaking in just the last hour, speaker mike johnson announcing that the security footage of the january 6th attack will be made available to the public, that includes footage given to then fox news host tucker carlson by speaker kevin mccarthy earlier this year. and that's where we start this hour with tim haffey and with me at the table, lisa rubin, and molly, a special correspondent for "vanity fair." you poured through this footage. you took steps to make sure that the footage didn't disclose sensitive security information, your reaction to speaker johnson's move today? >> yeah, it is dangerous. the capitol police gave it to us, with strict conditions that we needed to clear with them before we publicly showed any of that footage. it is relevant because it demonstrates some events in and around the capitol. there are security cameras posted all over the complex. the specific location of those cameras is closely held law enforcement sensitive information and if they're all disclosed, then can that be re-created as to where they are, that will make it easier for future rioters who are intent on disrupting another joint session of congress or official proceeding to circumvent those cameras. so it is really risky to just throw the doors open and make them together without any protection. >> there is the logistical piece and the fact that just this week you had a republican congressman pedaling conspiracy theorys about what actually happened on january 6th, trying to argue that the fbi was involved in january 6th. you take this footage and you put it in the hands of bad actors, who knows where it goes. >> i think it is a bit weird that mike johnson is doing this. he's recently become the speaker of the house. he was the consensus candidate when they panicked after three weeks of republicans not having a speaker. and also he recently endorsed donald trump. so, you have to wonder is he doing this as, like, a campaign stunt or is he doing this in his job as speaker of the house? >> right. this is not actually about governing. good question about motivation. i love that you brought legal documents for us to answer the question that you knew i would have about how this becomes these claims from donald trump become legally debunked. >> i think the claims become legally debunked because of the 187 minutes. let's start there. on this tape with john carl, donald trump is saying he could have stopped it and yet the evidence is as clear as day that he didn't do anything to stop that through his communications with anyone on the hill or otherwise from the white house. when he says i wanted to go there, yes, we all know he wanted to go there. and to cassidy hutchinson's testimony, are we really supposed to believe a person who would reach up and throttle his own secret service agent would then go there in peace a couple of hours later to try to dissuade his supporters from tearing up the capitol? i don't think so. >> break down judge chutkan's ruling for us. >> i think judge chutkan's ruling is incredibly important but not necessarily for the reasshat people think. you might say, well, why does it matter what is in the indictment itself, particularly if the jurors are not going to walk away. i'm holding the indictment if they're not going to walk away with this document in their hands during deliberations. it matters because that is still fair game for the prosecutors to prove and as we know as a politico article recently, that's the centerpiece of jack smith's case. they want to put january 6th at the center of donald trump's efforts to obstruct the official proceeding and there is a whole section of the indictment that is about his exploitation of the violence and the chaos. it is not just his inaction. it is about how he laid the ground work for that chaos and exploited it, tweeting about mike pence at 2:24 as the indictment says, a minute before he has to be evacuated. the cause and effect is clear in the indictment and now prosecutors can make that a central part of their presentation. >> judge chutkan says trump's filing makes, quote, numerous inflammatory and unsupported accusations of its own. why do you think she felt the need to write that? >> i think she's trying to show that trump is using his filings for political theater as much as he is using it to mount a legal defense if not more so. i think that's offensive to her. we're seeing that in the new york case as well. where there is a sort of pee-wee herman i know you are but what am i thing going on. she's calling him on it. you're filing just as you're saying these allegations need to be stricken because they're inflammatory, your filing is more inflammatory than anything they said about you, you are trying to ratchet this up, you are endangering people through your rhetoric which you call your defense. >> which we have seen time and time again. jack smith said trump's bid to strike references to the violence from the indictment was a meritless effort to evade the indictment's clear allegations that the defendant is responsible for the events at the capitol on january 6th. talk to us, touch on that. i want to tease it out more. why the violence on the 6th matters in terms of donald trump's criminal exposure. >> because they're the ultimate manifestation of his attempt to disrupt the joint session. he's charged specifically with intent to disrupt an official proceeding. the violence is what interrupts the official proceeding. it is the logical last step of his intentional multipart plan to prevent the transfer of power. that is the theory that the special counsel has charged. and this notion you should somehow separate the violence of the capitol because he isn't technically charged with assaulting a police officer, like a lot of them have been charged, is crazy because, again, you can only understand what happened at the capitol as the logical last step of a desperate plan. judge chutkan logically saw through that, there is no way to try this case, this conspiracy case without reference to the violence. and his intent all along is made manifest by his inaction over the course of those 187 minutes. this notion he told john carl i could have gone down there and stopped it, completely inconsistent with the consistent body of evidence we heard from people inside the white house who said he didn't do anything. he could have picked up his phone and tweeted to stop and he did not. to the contrary. he resisted those efforts from his daughter, from his chief of staff, from his white house counsel. he sat there and watched tv in the dining room as people brawled, as somebody was killed, and for him now to say, i could have gone down there and stopped it, it just belies the consistent body of evidence that we developed that jack smith will present in court. >> what do you make of his saying he thinks he would have been well received by the rioters? >> for trump, there is so much ego and you even saw, he's talking about a riot and he's, like, it is a huge crowd, it was -- >> still arguing over crowd size. >> and so i do think ultimately he can't help himself. he tends to confess things as a sort of point of pride, we saw him politicize, you know, these court hearings. he sometimes does the wrong thing even not the politically smart thing. i think we'll see more of this braggadocioness. >> i want to play for you something the january 6th committee uncovered, the police radio transmission from the rally at the ellipse. >> white male, 6 feet tall, brown cowboy boots, blue jeans and blue jean jacket and underneath the blue jean jacket is -- ar-15. he will be with a group of individuals, about five to eight other individuals, two of the individuals in that group wearing green fatigues -- p wearing green fatigues - >> tim, if you are prosecutors, how do you marry the sound that we just heard ascribing who was in that crowd, describing how heavily armed they are with this claim from donald trump that he wanted to go down, that he would be well received by these very people? >> well, the first step is to connect that intelligence to the former president himself. and there is evidence that he was told that morning of the presence of weapons in the crowd, that he acknowledged there are a lot of people that wanted to come through the magnetometers but could not because they had prohibited items so they need to connect his knowledge of weapons of violence and of the danger that his words would incite violence. that is then really significant because it informs his subsequent conduct. if you say you got to go fight like hell, you don't have a country anymore, mindful people are paying attention to that want ar-15 or side arm, that takes on an entirely different cast than if he's speaking rhetorically. if it is addressed to a crowd of angry people that falsely believe the election has been stolen, and who are intent on marching to the capitol to prevent that outcome, so jack smith absolutely will rely on that intelligence, on the evidence that it was conveyed to and obvious to president trump. it informs his words, and his very strong evidence of his intent. >> lisa rubin, lest you thought you were getting a thanksgiving holiday, monday trump's appeal of the gag order, oral arguments, what do you think we can expect? >> i'm looking for the judges on the panel to really try and understand what the danger is and one of the things that trump has argued is nobody has been hurt, there is no evidence that anybody on the receiving end has actually been intimidated from participating in the process. i'm really interested in hearing how the special counsel's office is going to contest that and in particular to what extent they're going to reveal the level of security, for example, regarding their own apparatus. we know that folks at the department of justice who are career officials who have been detailed to jack smith's office, they have security. we know jack smith has his own considerable security. i'm considered in hearing them explain why donald trump's words, even if there hasn't been any manifest danger can no longer be tolerated by any federal court in this country, let alone judge chutkan in her own courtroom. >> do you think the gag order out of new york ends up playing here? the fact he's had 24 hours he's not under the gag order and he's running his mouth as one would expect. >> i think it plays in the same way that the interim stay of the gag order in d.c. led immediately to him saying things like jack smith should be institutionalized. so i don't think they needed another full cast of characters to compare it to. but it certainly adds to the body of evidence that when donald trump is free to run his mouth, there are people whose lives remain at risk even as he's being prosecuted for the things he's done in the past. >> tim, i got to ask you where you think this is all headed, specifically if there is the possibility that this is headed to the supreme court. >> yeah, potentially. it is what it is really doing is it is making march 4th more and more and more certain. the best way for judge chutkan to alleviate the harm presented by these incendiary extra judicial statements is to -- to the extent the president wants to continue to talk broadly about the criminal broken justice system or criticize people directly involved in that system, it is just digging in the trial date. and i think judge chutkan knows that. we are speeding toward resolution of this federal case starting on march 4th. i think every day that passes, it digs in more and more certainly and it will be resolved 60, 45, 60 days later. a verdict in that case, in the spring. and trump's comments are only making that more and more likely. >> i take the argument that lisa acknowledged he's going to look for during the oral arguments this question of whether or not they can connect the dots very explicitly. yet it is striking to me that we're sitting here having this conversation the same week that there is a conviction for the paul pelosi attacker. you might not be able to show directly one to one, but the rhetoric, the incendiary language, the fever swamps, there is no question that it is resulting in both masses as we saw on january 6th and in these lone wolfs who are deciding to act on their own. >> yeah. it is really scary time to live in this country. and actually i'm watching the video thinking about how glad i am that there weren't more casualties. there were plans and these people were armed and it was really -- i mean, we have gotten really lucky in a way. i hope that, you know, i'm constantly -- trump has an opportunity to take down the temperature. and at every point he refuses to. >> you'll notice that at the top of this script, i said trump's legal cases because as we all know, plural, multiple, let's switch gears a bit. breaking news in the fulton county election interference case, d.a. fani willis requested a trial start date of august 5th, 2024, lisa, what do you think? >> fani willis did this interview with "the washington post" the other day where she was talking with amy gardener and talked about the fact she expects this trial to last many months. everyone who has observed her comments about it also understands that jury selection in and of itself is expected to take many months. this is fani willis saying i'm prepared to try this case in august, and i don't care that there is an election in november. i'm prepared to try this case during the election, over the election, select a jury during that period that doj might consider off limits because i'm not subject to the same strictures that might be guardrails in the federal system, i am going to try this case come hell or high water. whether judge mcafee allows her to is another story. but she is ready to go. and this is also creating a window of opportunity for the 15 remaining defendants to engage in plea negotiations. >> you laid out the timeline as august 5th relates to the 2024 election. there is also as it relates to the rnc. it is two weeks after the rnc. so there is the possibility he is the official nominee of the republican party, he has stood on the stage, the balloons have come down, the crowds have gone wild, august 5th, his trial starts. >> i think there are a lot of republican donors who are really freaked out by the fact that is not just a possibility, that is the likely scenario, right? i mean, this guy is cruising toward the nomination, no one is even close. and i think there is talk about everybody getting behind nikki haley, but i think that window is quickly closing. and, you know, it is a republican party that just never had control of its base. >> tim, your thoughts on this date. >> yeah, i'll leave the politics to molly and the other experts. but, look, a rico case against what started as 19 and is now down to 14 defendants is complicated. there is a lot of discovery that has to be poured over. this date is not a surprise when you look at the number of defendants in the charges. i think as lisa said, this does provide additional time for more guilty pleas. i would expect that over time by the time it gets to august 5th, it could be winnowed down to the hard core control group of the conspiracy, including the former president and the case will only have gotten stronger. i don't think she cares candidly about whether or not it is or isn't an election season. the department of justice has a policy, prosecutors cannot take enforcement action reasonably close, pretty vague term, reasonably close to an election, there is a desire not do anything that might impact the election. that doesn't apply in georgia, that doesn't apply to state cases, so she's going to try her case on the schedule that she thinks is appropriate without regard to politics. >> and we will be watching very closely. tim, thank you so much for getting us started. the table is sticking with me. when we come back, even more legal headlines in the multiple cases facing the ex-president. just in the last few minutes the judge in the $250 million civil fraud case throwing out trump's far fetched motion for a mistrial. plus his gag order in that case on hold, could any of the things he says over the next ten days affect future gag orders? this and other cases, more on that just ahead. and later in the program, a chilling preview about what a second term for the disgraced ex-president looks like. the fate of the world is in the hands of voters in 2024. voters. ♪ we're building a better postal service. with easy, more affordable ways to ship. so you can deliver even more holiday joy. the united states postal service. delivering for america. i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. cosentyx works for me. cosentyx helps real people get real relief from the symptoms of psoriatic arthritis or psoriasis. serious allergic reactions, severe skin reactions that look like eczema, and an increased risk of infections, 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powering possibilities. in perhaps the most predictable turn of events of all time, donald trump resumed attacking the court staff in connection with his $250 million civil fraud trial. most immediately after a gag order on trump and his lawyers was temporarily lifted. just hours after the ruling, trump posted on truth social attacking the principle law clerk working for the federal judge in this case. trump disparaged the clerk previously online, she is now being targeted by right wing attacks across the maga ecosystem. the gag order was imposed by the judge after trump accused the clerk of being partisan in a post. trump further violated the order twice, resulting in $15,000 in court fines. but for now, the order is on hold until november 27th when a full panel of appeals court judges will consider the matter. also this afternoon, judge engoron refusing to even allow even a briefing on said motion. joining our conversation, harry litman is here. lisa and molly are both back with us. the judge also denied the trump team motion for a mistrial today addressed some of the claims in his order. talk us through, what stuck out to you, harry. >> well, look, these are both about the same law clerk. and i do think the idea that somehow there is a mistrial here is fanciful and gave it short shrift. they have imposed a stay, very similar as you pointed out last session to what is happening in d.c. both of these stays, it is important to note, are not the variety that courts impose when they think they're going to reverse. they're just administrative and this is what is called an interim stay in new york. and i got to wonder, i mean, look at what he did in d.c., to smith, his family, et cetera, what you just said he did in new york. will these courts dissolve their administrative stays because of the danger as they exist. what happened here is they impose a stay, just to let everybody make the decision as they do sometimes at the supreme court. and that is fine, that's the status quo. from here to november 27th, there can be a lot of damage. not just by trump, but as you say, lone wolves like david depape. i have to imagine each judge here is concerned about the whole impact around the country of his completely improper and incendiary behavior. >> just to dig in deeper, you pointed out to me this gag order appeal is not your run of the mill gag order appeal. it has a special feature. >> it does have a special feature and it is pursuant to particular new york statute. when we were leading up to the fulton county indictment, we all learned about special purpose grand juries together. that's the bug of georgia law. in new york, this weird quirk of new york law, something called an article 78 proceeding, it is a way of suing somebody who is a government official for something that they have done that is allegedly unconstitutional or unlawful. so this isn't actually an appeal. it is a suit against judge engoron himself. he's literally now donald trump's official adversary. but the judge gets his own lawyer in this proceeding. and the fact that he and trump are now sort of on the same level face to face as parties in a lawsuit, that just lend itself to the narrative that trump wants to feed, which is this guy is my enemy, he's my adversary, he's after me, when he didn't ask for this suit. donald trump used it to circumvent the normal appellate process and fast track a lawsuit to the appellate decision on november 27th. >> i want to ask you about elise stefanik. she's trying to take credit for this, we could have presumed she would take credit for any action. doesn't actually have anything to do with her efforts. >> it doesn't have anything to do with her efforts. elise stefanik has a complaint with new york's commission on judicial ethics. to the extent that the same people were involved in drafting this, maybe they should take a victory lap. but, this is an effort that went at the same problem three ways. they moved for a mistrial, complained to the commission, and filed this new lawsuit against judge engoron. that would have moved too slowly for donald trump's liking and most critically would have come after the expected december or so verdict in the civil fraud trial he knows will likely be the end of the trump empire in new york. >> back to the argument you made about the question you posed about why speaker johnson would release the footage from 1/6 and it connects to elise stefanik. it is all about serving donald trump and his political agenda. >> well, trump made the republican party and we see this with donations in arm of the trump campaign. what he's done is blur the lines between trump and his campaign and the actual government that he ran during his administration. i would say what i think is interesting about trump is that he is a person who uses the courts as a way to campaign. and so he is trying this court with his base. he's trying to get them to see stuff, to get them excited, because he's seeing it has helped him get the nomination. it helped him. i do think you're going to see more of that and these threats and this getting his base all excited, this is all about trying to get the nomination because, remember, this guy is not running for president just to be president. he's running for president to stay out of jail. just to put a fine point on what you said. acording to "the new york times," about an hour after the new york gag orders were paused, an hour, jazzjason miller poste social amedia attacking the clerk, calling her a democrat operative. there is the possibility of where this goes, there is also the chilling effect this has on future witnesses, on attorneys. it is an undermining of the entire institution and that is by design. >> 100%. look, judge chutkan when she reimposed the order said this would have clearly violated what he said about mark meadows. i think i have never in my life heard more inflammatory and out of line comments than what he made about jack smith's wife and daughter. and so it is a systemic problem, but that every court is handling in its institutional way. so they're asking was the clerk really threatened or not, but they have to keep -- have to have in mind this broader national issue and the real possibility that somebody is going to get hurt and what happens then. but they not only have this effect, they have the purpose of intimidating witnesses, undermining the process, everything that one needs a gag order to impose. one of them is coming and soon, but we'll see if it actually shuts him up. >> to that point, lisa, i think we all understand the problem, the solution here is what remains elusive. "the new york times" writing a far right activist who mr. trump considered hiring to work on his third presidentialampaign and praised hasargeted the judge and his family in numerous social media posts. commentators on fox news and elsewhere havettacked him for shirtless photos that appeared in an alumni newsletter. if not the gag order, then what. >> i don't know. >> i think that's an honest answer. >> i don't know. i go to court every morning and i see these people operating in what doesn't seem like that big of a stage or that big of a theater. they are normal everyday people who are anonymous before this case entered their lives and now their home addresses, their half naked bodies, all sorts of things are being exposed to the general public. i wonder about the well-being and it is not because i know them or care about them as individual people, i care about their well-being the same i way i would about any participant in that courtroom. i'm generally scared something is going to happen to a participant in this process, whether in d.c., or georgia or new york. this has to stop. and i really hope that the courts understand the correct balance between trump's first amendment rights and the administration of justice because lives depend on it. >> thank you for laying the stakes so bare. thank you for spending time with us. since one block with harry is never enough, a new episode of molly's mod cast is out today with harry as her guest, a mashup of talking feds and fast politics. look for it. coming up for us, comments by speaker mike johnson about our, quote, dark and depraved culture revealing the extreme demand, not just two heart beats away from the presidency. demand, not just two heart beats away from the presidency my daughter and i finally had that conversation. oh, no, not about that. about what comes next in life. for her. i may not be in perfect health, but i want to stay in my home, where my family visits often and where my memories are. i can do it with help from a prep cook, wardrobe assistant and stylist, someone to help me live right at home. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪ ♪ with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. -ahh, -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein 30 grams protein, one gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and nutrients for immune health. 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when he talks about church attendance, what church do they go to that tells them to put medicate and medicare at risk for people that are poor, the kind of people jesus healed. it is a distortion and a perversion. i've been a preacher since i was a little boy, i know the bible. the bible ought not be running the country. this is a democracy, not a theocracy. if you quote the bible, quote it right. >> stay on that point about democracy versus theocracy. speaker johnson was on cnbc this week, he spoke about the founders and the separation of church and state. take a listen. >> so they want faith to be part of that. the separation of church and state is a misnomer, people misunderstand it, it comes from a phrase in a letter that jefferson wrote, not in the constitution. what he was explaining is they did not want the government to encroach upon the church, not that they didn't want principles of faith to have influence on our public life. exactly the opposite. >> rev, is that your interpretation? >> if he's going to say it was just in a letter about church and state, what about the saying freedom of religion? what was that? was that in a letter too? do they read the bill of rights? do they read the constitution? this country was never built to be a theocracy and it shouldn't because if somebody -- i'm a religious baptist. if somebody of a different religion takes power, they can outlaw my religion. or deal with people don't that don't believe in religion at all. your religion is not based on who you dominate. your religion is based on what you believe so you can communicate and deal with anyone else and this country became a beacon in terms of his promise. hadn't fully lived up to it, based on the fact that people could be free of religion and other factors that they were not free around the world and the founding fathers absolutely -- they weren't flawless. we're not talking about founding fathers that we couldn't question if they did say that. but they didn't say what johnson said. >> this was their consensus candidate. also, they were like we have gone through a lot of options here, i guess this is the best we have got. >> it was weeks and they needed someone that nobody was mad at. and they picked the guy who was in leadership who no one knew and it turns out that guy is kind of a nut, right? he's antilgbtq, he's antichoice, he's antiscience, he's antiintellect. he's pro religion. and i have to say that was one of the scariest things that that particular speaker could say was that church and state -- it doesn't mean what you think it means. i mean, that's pretty terrifying. i would say the one saving grace of all of this is that voters don't like this. american women don't want to die from mike johnson's religious beliefs. they're not interested in that. you saw it again and again. you saw it in kentucky with this off year election, voters don't like this. they don't like their votes being taken away and they don't like having a big brother figure telling them what they can and can't do. it was a bad night for moms for liberty, quote, unquote, liberty in this election. they lost a lot of school boards. these are not -- this overstep is not something voters want. >> it is something i heard when i was doing reporting in the last election, you talked to voters, i don't know they seem so extreme. the extremism stood out to them above any single policy issue. and i would layer on to that how anihilistic this all seems. we can say the stakes are high, america is on the line, democracy is on the line. there is a glowing and positive vision of what america can and could be. that's not what he's serving up. he's serving up doom and gloom and i don't think that motivates anyone. >> it doesn't motivate anyone and it turns people off. if you have a speaker now, and i hope people get this, that is third in line in terms of the presidential order, that is waiting to proclaim the wrath of god on all of americans that don't believe like him, that is scary, that he would be two steps away from being the one walking with the -- with all the armed services and all at his beck and call and he's waiting on the wrath of god to come down to anyone that doesn't believe as he believes, doesn't lives as he believes. this is frightening. that should make people come out and vote these people out of power. these people are in many ways not only a distortion of religion, they're dangerous to this democracy, beyond democracy against them. it is dangerous what they are trying to preach. it is the kind of things that people have had to fight all over the world. >> no one is going anywhere. we're going continue this conversation. up next, where mike johnson stands on the house gop's george santos problem, a live report from capitol hill. that's next. report from capitolil hl. that's next. 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(sniffs) ooh, it smells like a cat nip toy from chewy. that's not a phone. get up to 40% off gifts that bring the most joy at chewy. this is better than toilet paper. get great deals on gifts that deliver excitement at chewy. a mystery! jessie loves playing detective. but the real mystery was her irritated skin. so, we switched to tide pods free & gentle. it cleans better, and doesn't leave behind irritating residues. and it's gentle on her skin. tide free & gentle is epa safer choice certified. it's got to be tide. speaker mike johnson's view on church and state and the dark and depraved americanjohnson's on church and state is going to have a decision to make very soon. that's whether or not he'll join the movement to expel george santos following the damning ethics committee report. joining us from capitol hill, alley have i tallest, rev andalie is here. how are things looking now? >> reporter: they're looking different. the last time we saul an expulsion vote come up, but the last time they did this, they said they were waiting, those who said they were opening for voting to expel george santos, they said they were waiting to see what the committee put forward. ultimately what it put forward is something that's almost stranger than fiction about the ways that santos allegedly misused campaign funds for everything from set foron and onlyfans. certainly it sent continued shockwaves through congress. it now brings us to the point, who typically try to keep an much difference from showing their hand on this, because they want to be able to retain some amount of independence when they actually go in as their role on the ethics committee, we've seen the chairman even say, separate from my role there, i will be the one to put forward the expulsion resolution. he did so today. it will be about a week after thanksgiving until we see this resolution be voted on. we have already seen dozens of republicans come forward and say this report is reason numb, but they need two thirds to vote them out. >> there is one name in particular i'm interested in, that's speaker johnson. >> he did put out a statement that the allegations were struggling, but just like the speakers before him, we've watched leadership sort of try to stay out of the fray. the out that johnson doesn't have that mccarthy had for the entire tern your of his short time, he punted this back to the ethics committee. johnson no longer has that as an option. we saw the message speak opaquely about the allegations that have surfaced, while also saying that people should use this time over the thanksgiving holiday and recess to thing about their options. yes, that could be viewed as him speaking to the republicans in the house, but maybe one particular congressman, and that's george santos himself, who has the option to resign, but as people with law degrees have pointed out, it could be more helpful for santos to remain here, even though he won't use for reelection and use the ability to resign if he were to enter into some kind of plea deal with prosecutors. the legal is at an intersection with the political here. >> what are you watching for? >> this is a problem, right? you have this republican congress barely controlled by republicans. you have a small majority. the speaker wants to keep the vote. he's worried about not passing stuff. they've had a lot of stuff passing stuff. they've been pulling billing from the floor, but there are these vulnerable -- who you in biden's seats, who are desperate to sort of make it look like they're bipartisan or nonpartisan. in the end, i think, you know, santos is probably going to try to stay? office to use it for a plea deal. >> rev? >> i think santos was probably try to use it for a plea deal. he has very little things to leverage, but i also think, when you think of, as we were talking about the last segment, this bible-thumping johnson and how they are you openly critical. this is a guy who said the criminal acts and immoral acts, but that's all right, but the average american can't live by santos, because the wrath of god is coming down on them. if you look at santos and the interview that johnson did that you played in the last segment, you understand why hypocrisy is a kind work to apply. i feel like we all need a palate cleanse. so thank you for joining us. when we come back. what experts say we need to do about it. 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"the economist" labels the four times indicted, twice impeached, ex-president as the greatest threat not just to the country, but to the world. "the economist" notes this is the 30th predictive guide, in and in all that time, no sing the person has eclipsed their analysis than donald ump. they write -- this is a perilous moment. democracy is in trouble at home. he claims to have won the election in 2020 was aince cal bet he do manipulate and intimidate his compatriots. it has worked. american also faces growing hostilities abroad. those three countries loosely coordinate their efforts in a vision of a new international order in which might is right, and autocrats are secure. a scary preview of the world made less safe due to donald trump, could be much less constrained if he wins. "the economist" has a bleak but critical msage. a second trump term would be a watershed. his plans would encounters less resistance, because america will have voted him in, kwing the worst. the election will be decided by tens of thousands of voters in a handful of states. in 2024, the fate of the world will depend on their ballots. wow. that's where we start this hour with matt daoud, retired let colonel amy graf and host of the independence americans podcast paul rye cough. ian, did "the economist" getting it right? >> absolutely. they have show -- since its modern advent, democracy had a first wave in the early 19th century. in another wave after world war ii. that wave receded as well. we saw the third wave where it reached the farthest reaches yet. we're living in a recession of that third wave. the question is how deep would it go. if that free united states gives, it's unclear where the bottom would be. >> talk about putting that at the feet of donald trump. >> there's a playbook that autocrats use around the world, and in donald trump's first term, he did every single one of the autocrat's plays, politicizing law enforcement, spreading disinformation, seizing power from the executive at the expense of the other branches. the thing that stopped him going further were the checks and balances, especially a lot of the executive branch, the appointees who took their oath more importantly than his directives. he's planning to staff the government with around army of loyalists who will simy do what the aspire dictator tells them to do. they wrote -- having won back power, he would shushly be affirmed that only losers allow themselves to be bound by the norms. he will wage war on any institution that stands in his way, including the courts and the department of justice. i don't have to tell you, matt, there are reports that we have covered, his plans to weaponize doj, to go after his so-called enemies if he returns to office. talk about the danger of an unrestrained trump, and as a threat to the global order, the role that the republican party will have played if they stand idly by. >> we know the dangers that have restrained trump, but think about an unrestrained trump. it's a bit like king kong. now king kong would be unchained in the course of this. i would take this further. we talk about trump and what he represents and the problems he has caused, how he's undermined democracy. donald trump could not have succeeded and cannot succeed without the enabling of a large segment of the party he represents. that's the fundamental problem here. i mean, obviously donald trump represents a proximate problem for democracy in the united states and the world, but more fundamentally, there is a large segment of the republican party that actually, though they don't say it like donald trump, agrees with donald trump, and that's what i think i am most concerned about. donald trump you can remove him, done. the problem is there's a whole segment of the tribe that donald trump belongs to that completely enables this, and that's my worry. >> among the things he does is sell his supporter on this idea that he's not the one who is being targeted, that they are the ones being targeted. he takes this sense of victimhood and casts it upon his followers. how do you undo that? how do you speak to people who have been sold that specific lie? >> well, first, i think everybody on this panel, i think comes from a place where they have fought this battle for years and understood this. we have replaced integrity in office with an ends justifies the means in office. that completely occupies the republican party, but it's pronounced in many ways in our society of the ends justify the means. that's, i think, the fundamental thing we have to do to. we as people who speak on campaigns, i would say people who run for office, including joe biden and others, have to make this argument. i think the mistake democrats often make, they want to make an argument about something else. they want to pick another issue and talk about it, but the most fundamental issue as "the economist" says is the fundamental issue in america, which represents our economic freedom, our personal freedom, which represents what will we leave to our children and grandchildren. the face of all of that depends on a healthy democracy, and i think, as campaign people, we have to fundamentally decide that, and basically make the election as a fundamental test of where is american democracy going to go from here? it's incumbent upon all of us to make that argument. >> amy? >> well, what i think is that democrats need to make sure that voters know that the republican party and donald trump, they are the leaders that care about our national security. they don't care about veterans. they are not the leaders that care about the global world order that we inherited from the greatest generation. i think that message has to come from people who are respected. maybe not necessarily democratic politicians. a lot of voters don't always believe democratic politicians. it needs to come from people who have been in national security, who have worked in republican administrations. that is a message, you know, that is real, that's out there, that's why, you know, my organization like operation saving democracy, is out there trying to talk about this, because the greatest threat to the globe today, as "the economist" so eloquently stated, is the prospect of a second trump presidency. knowing that america would abandon europe, mr. putin would have an incentive to fight on in ukraine and to pick off former soviet states like moldova. without pressure from the u.s., calculating that mr. trump does not stand by its allies, by asserting that america has no global responsibility to deal with climate change, mr. trump would crush efforts sw it. caht between a deal making president and warmongering official, there could be cat trophic consequences. talk to me about that. >> america is much less safe now. this has always been shaped in the process of a political story, what happens if he wins. this is a national security story right now. he is a threat right now. he's threatening people in america, validating our enemies and the leader of what i call the american insurgency. they want to install him as the leader. he's posts social media, disrupting our civilization, he is an immediate national security threat that the national security apparatus is thinking about. what happens if he's out and doing this for the next 11 months? that is the more immediate threat. we have to move that bar closer back. at the end of the day, he as millions of people angry, with guns, who will do what he says. >> also, if he does win and you think about what that means for the geopolitical order, amy referenced the greatest generation. they were part of the allied powers, against the axis power that were for authoritarianism and dictatorship. there's a rising of the axis right now, including russia, china, turkey, hungary who are trading ideas and working together. whether there's a cold ware or, god forbid, a hot wear, the notion that america would be on the side of the axis side is a terrifying thought. >> let me ask you, though, as someone who focuses a lot on elections, every u.s. election moving forward becomes this plea to voters, democracy is on the line. one, what does that do to the reach of our elections? two, can you ever advance as a society if democracy itself always remains? peril? >> you can't. you can't have a sustainable democracy where one of the two parties has been captured by an extremist authoritarian movement that is consistently potentially representing the end of a democracy. we have a significant anti-maga authority in this country. the probably is some of our electoral system design choices make it that a plurality -- the electoral college, and if you go back and look at the early 20th sensory, a lot of faye in institutions, you see a fracturing of parties around the world, in the united states and europe, a lot like we're seeing today, where we're seeing a fractioning, and when fractures happen like that, a plurality faction can sneak through, and those that don't represent the majority view, with grab power. they could create a situation in which an unpopular authoritarian leader could sneak through. >> i thought "the economist" did a good job. the fact we're not talking about the country as a whole. we are talking about tens of thousands of voters in a handful of states that will make this decision at the end of the day. >> with this last election, joe biden got in by 24,000 votes spread across three states, in an election most of is thought was a fait accompli, but this year's election, he starts off with more significant disadvantages, an incumbent running at a time when people question the economy. there were a few thousand votes that could have determined governor in 2022 and who was secretary of state in 2022, and all those elections were motivated. they had candidates arose, they presented the argument, and they continued to stave off this, and be one of the people on the levels of the institutions to make sure that democracy is preserved. my fear is that the american public, unless presented with this argument in its urgency will default to, well, the price of my eggs is up, the prices of hamburgers is up, unless the american public looks at elections, they get responses by what they're told the eledge is about. donald trump, to say this election is not fundamentally about what they think it is, he's going to make an argument where americans sour on. i agree with amy, we need to present it as a national security question, as all of these questions, under the banner of democracy. i would say one thing we should keep in mind. i don't think it's a bad thing that we -- that we're no longer the america from 1948. i believe going forward our policy should be more humble and more humility in this, especially after what we've been through. we should advance in the world in a more humble fashion. renewal of democracy in america i think would belie a view of leadership in the world. i want to ask you, amy mcgrath, about the idea of a new world order, and ceding any type of that type of moral authority, but the fact it would be no longer in question. >> yeah, i think -- the thing is, when, if you are going to take donald trump and have him as -- in a second trump presidency, he has said he'll end nato. he will pull us out of the greatest alliance the world has ever seen. this is stark. i believe, look, i think america is exceptional, that we are needed to uphold the global world order. i think it's really important, you know, nations follow nations that are powerful. america has been powerful, but we've created a world that has the ability to have democracy around there. not all nations are democratic, that's true, but without an american, without an america that stands for human rights, that stands for democracy, i think the world is a much more dangerous place. donald trump would also take our alliances and our partnerships and throw them out the window. what does that really mean? that means south korea, japan, they're going to get nuclear weapons, all these countries in europe are going to need nuclear weapons, and that's not a world that i want my kids to be raised in. i think we have to present this to the american people and remind them of the dangers here. >> i want to say, though, when amy brings of nato, i think part of what donald trump did was to soften the ground for that not seeming like such a dangerous and extreme position, right? the fact he came with this american first world view, he sold it to a lot of voters, you up to know would you say the price of your eggs is so high? because we're spending all this monies in other countries that we don't need to. he did a great jock of conflating the role we play abroad, regardless of whether or not the dots actually connect. so, that seems to me to be part of the rhetorical challenge that democrats will be up against going into 2024. you might want to say the stakes are democracy, but one there's all right an electoral that has bought into his lie, but secondly, there's a section that says the economy is not what we want here at home. >> this all has to be simplified. the few hundred thousand independent, unaffiliated voters, and has to be simplified to, yeah, biden might be although, you might not love him, but at least he's not crazy and dangerous and at least blow up the world. that's the argument you have to make to those on the fence. 60% of young people are checking out the democratic party and the republican party. they want none of the above. the question is how do you convincingly move people to vote for biden over trump. that's the democrats talk about nato and geopolitics, it's all too complicated. you have to simplify it. this guy is crazy and dangerous, and willably up the country, or you have the old guy that will lieutenant no doing crazy. when we return, israeli forces continue to search the al shifa hospital in gaza. we'll have a live report from tel aviv. also, the white house joining the many voices condemning elon musk for the comments on x. that's later in the hour. the efforts still ongoing to bar donald trump's name for appears on the ballot. there is new development in one key state, as we await a ruling in another. do not go anywhere. a ruling in another do not go anywhere ♪ i wanna hold you forever ♪ hey little bear bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ i'm gonna love you forever ♪ ♪ ♪ c'mon, bear. ♪ ♪ ♪ you don't...you don't have to worry... ♪ ♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪ c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. ♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. israel's my is now warning me areas of the enclave will be targeted next, orton civilians to immediately evaluation in four more neighborhoods,ccding to leaflets obtained by nbc news, the actions have forced israel's military to act, quote, in your area of residence. nearby explosions send dozens of palestinians, including children, to the hospital. more than 1.6 million palestinians havbeen displaced. the united nations now warnings that food and water are nearly nonexistent. raf, you were inside gaza talking to palestinians trying to flee. do you know how many civilians remain in these areas? >> reporter: the last estimate, alicia, from the united states was there about 300,000 still in the northern half of gaza, down from a pre-war population of more than a million. what the israeli military described to us inside the gaza was a cascading effect, that there is a certain residual population that's been reluctant to leave so far, because they have elderly relatives, not able to make this perilous journey on foot south through the so-called humanitarian zones. people have been responsibling to specific warnings that the fight is coming to their neighborhood, and they say, when they go street to street with bullhorns, saying, listen we'll be engaging hamas in this neighborhood in the coming hours, that often is what people sort of last straw, if you will. that's what gets people to finally, finally leave. it was striking, it was painful as we stood with israeli troops on a sand berm near one of the busiest streets in gaza city, but now the route for what they're calling a humanitarian corridor. we watched families walking, little children with their napsacks, elderly people in while chairs, and they're all going south to this uncertain future. for israel, these corridors are proof that they're trying to get civilians out of harm's way, their war is not against the people of gaza, but hamas, but for many palestinians, this feels like forced displacement and reopening the biggest national trauma of the palestinian people, which is being forced from your home, being told one day you'll be able to return when the war is over and when the war ends, finding out you can never go back. we asked the military if people can go home. they said, it would depend on a number of factors, including what hamas today. they released video of what we're told is underneath the hospital. israel and u.s. believe it exists. what is the latest? >> the israeli military released a video of what it says is a hamas tunnel on the grounds of the al shifa. we cannot verify that opening is in fact a hamas tunnel. we can be confident, based on our geolocation, whatever it is, it is on the grounds of al shifa. the israeli military is saying that, in the coming days it will have more evidence that it says will point to the existence of this alleged command center underneath al shifa. what humanitarians organizations are saying, even if hamas is operating out of the hospital, the military advantage that israel gains by disrupting their operations has to be balanced against the humanitarian suffering of not just the patients at al shifa, including the premature babies out of their incubators, because there's no electricity there, but also the internally displaced people who had been sheltering at that hospital, hoping it would be a safe place. israel is saying there would be more evidence in the days to come. we'll see what emerges. >> as you said, raf, some people don't want to leave. some people simply cannot. stay safe. when we return, biden administration condemning elon musk of his response to the anti-semitic posting on x. more on that after the break. o. more on that after the break al . ♪♪ we're not an airline, but our network connects global businesses across nearly 160 markets. ♪♪ we're not a startup, but our innovation labs use new technologies to help keep your information secure. ♪♪ we're not architects, but we help build stronger communities. ♪♪ we're not just any bank. we are citi. ♪♪ at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage, plus prescription drug coverage. and coverage for dental, vision, and hearing, all wrapped up into one convenient plan. plus, there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! humana has large networks of doctors, hospitals and specialists across 49 states. so, call or go online today and get your free decision guide. humana - a more human way to healthcare. i've seen 9.2 trillion living rooms. i love home decor. and wayfair. the wayfair homes just have that razzle dazzle. they redid the guest room. all at prices you can't believe. wow! but you should. and blitzen fast shipping. north pole in two days. so this year go to wayfair... for goodness' sake. ho ho ho. the gifts... you have one job, nick. ♪ wayfair, you've got just what i need ♪ students... students of any age, from anywhere. using our technology to power different ways of learning. so when minds grow, opportunities follow. ♪ despite warning after warning that hate speech, excludes anti-semitism was on the rise on twitter or x, elon mask has not only done nothing to address it, but continuing to stoke it personally. he applied directly to a post accusing jewish communities. the account added that jewish people are now, quote, coming to the disturbing realization the horde -- don't exactly like them too much. hi response -- you have said the actual truth. in response to musk's comments, as well as reporting that its advertisements were reporting next to content that tows adof hitler, ibm has paused its advertising on the platform. the white house said -- we all have an obligation to speak out against anyone who attacks the dignity of their fellow americans and compromises the safety of our communities. joining our conversation jake ward, and former assistant director for counter-intelligence at the fbi, frank pig loses "forbes" figluz what will it take? >> it's not yet clear, alicia, and here we are, right? this self-inflicted wound on x's prospects in the advertising market just goes on and on. ibm pilling out. european commission pulling out, more companies not far behind, as we understand it. this is, of course, on the heels of a long history of musk either openly tweeting anti-semitic tropes, or certainly flirting with them, as early at 2018, writing things like, who do you think controls the immediate? and then no, no, i was just talking about powerful people. then tweeting a picture of hilt her, but saying it was a joke. welcoming kanye west back on to the platform, and he continues to pick filings with the antidefamation league, which he blames for having brought town the value of twitter. this is, of course, on a day when now more more and more advertisers are lining up, as well as the white house. very notable, the white house calling him out specifically, elon musk is the head of the company that provides the greatest -- and star defend link, the greatest constellation of satellites in the world. so this is very notable. >> frank, this article was published nearly a year ago. postsoared more than 61% in the two weeks after mr. musk acquired twitter. these changes are alarming, researchers said, adding they had never seen such a sharp increase in hate speech in such a short period on a mainstream social media platform. talk to us about what it is that law enforcement is seeing? >> the data is incredible with regard to the growth of hate on social media. it seems that algorithms simply perpetuate this. they look for engagement, that on which means conflict, language. so we're in a trap here with regard to social media leading us into this hate-filled period, and law enforcement really handcuffed, no pun intended, as to whether they can even approach the platforms. you'll recall this was a big topic of conversation with elon musk and twitter-gate and whether the fbi should or should not even work hand in hand to help suppress hate, help suppress foreign accounts buys ads, establishing fake accounts. we're in a mess, but i've been saying something for a while, social media is neither social more media. it's a public utility, and it needs to be regulated by legislators as such. i tell people the federal government regulates through the faa our airline systems. you can look up the safety and on-time record before you book your ticket. we give ratings to movies, private organizations rate moves for content. it's time to affix some kind of a, b, c for safe language, hate. it could be done with a private organization or associated with the government, but when we're being spoon-fed of hate, we need to do something about. this is where conspiracy theories immediate capitalism. when ibm pulls a million worst of advertising, according to action i don't this afternoon, apple has also pulled out of their advertising. tesla, at the end of this trading day, we don't know quite why, but at the end of the trading day, tesla is way down and has lost its gains for the week. there are repercussions in wall street and the capitalist system that could have more of an impact than law enforcement would have. i want to go back to the conversation, ian, with donald trump and the upcoming election. people want honesty, they want decency. there's some core values that actually fly in the face of the extremism we're seeing right now. >> yes. and like the earlier discussion, this is about national security. elon musk is a national security threat. he's a threat to the global security. he is cultivating, promoting, weaponizing this destructive behavior and hate that is ripping the country apart, and ripping the world apart form i think we want to put him as almost a parallel agent of mayhem alongside trump, who third would be putin. someone like putin, hamas, and say give me more elon musk or trump, this is great for their objectives. remember, musk has a cozy relationship with the department of defense, and we are reliant on starlink. there's other ways the government can pull the plug on elon musk, on his companies and the other interactions he has. i think it's time to ramp that up. jake, i don't want to play it, but i want a recent show of tucker carlson. he claims they've been funding by genocide. if the biggest donors at harvard have decided we're going to shut it down, where were you in the last ten years? you were allowing this, ping for it. you were calling my children for their skin color. you paid for that. why shouldn't i be mad at you? i don't understand. is this kind of hate reflective of musk's personal views, or is platforming it simply for him about profit? >> reporter: it is not at all clear the degree to which he has he personal views. what we know is elon musk part of running x, rebranding it and then, you know, making himself the number one audience getter on that platform seems to be all about not just wanting to run that platform in the quiet way its founders did, but want been to be extremely visible on that platform. he seems to want to be what the kids call a meme lord. he wants to be out there moving the site geist with what he tweets. he is indefatiguable. he cannot seemed to shut up, to be perfectly honest for you. it's uncharacteristic for someone like that to do that. so, at a time when we've seen the value of that company by some estimates erased by half, to see him continuing to want that sort of attention and continuing to get it does suggest something about his appetite for being visible in a world tech leaders trying to quiet on their own platforms. >> speaking of deinfatiguable, jacob, we're going to let you get out of the rain. we're going to a very short break. to a very short break. always feeling like you "gotta go"? 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(vo) black friday starts now. turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. right now we are waiting on a ruling in a case that could have enormous consequences for the 2024 election and for, well, democracy. a judge in colorado is weighing whether or not donald trump is disqualified for running for president, as a group filed a lawsuit seeking to bar trump from the ballot. closing arguments in the trial wrapped wednesday. the judge is expected to rule by the end of this week. attorney for the colorado plaintiff argued before the judge that the evidence that trump ingauged in insurrection should disqualify him for running. >> we are here because, for the first time in our nation's history, a president of the united states has engaged in insurrection against the constitution. now he wants to be president again. the constitution does not allow that. section 3 of the4th amendment is one of the few self-defense mechanismings that that document has. it stands for the unremarkable proposition that aerson who takes an oath to support the constitution and then turns around and attacks it cannot be allowed to take the oath a second time. the unremarkable proposition. joining us is barbara mcconveyed. paul is also back. barb, over the past two weeks judges in michigan, dismissed case. it seems this judge might be more poised to rule on this. why would the different judges have different readings. >> it's an untested area of the constitution. there were some cases that were handled right after the civil war when this was enacted, to keep confederates out of office, but since then there's nothing about whether someone may seek the presidency after engaging in insurrection. in fact, it's not clear if even this provision applies forr for the president. the cases in michigan did not get to far as trial form in colorado, the judge actually entertained a trial. so it got past that point. there was a trial, so the ability to find facts. there was testimony about the conduct here. so, i think we are likely to get a decision on the merits, as opposed to a dismissal on legal grounds from this court. as you say, it could come from any moment. >> let me may what was said earlier this month about the potential of this case making it to the supreme court. do you see any one of these cases as being the one that gets to the supreme court? >> well, professor and i have followed and monitored the various state court -- state and federal court proceedings that are under what in several of the states. then there will be any number of others in the weeks and months ahead. it's technical law that determines which would be the better or the best of the cases, but i'm satisfied that colorado is one of those states whose case, when it eventually makes it to the supreme court of the united states, would be what we lawyers call a perfect case for the supreme court to grant cert on, and to decide the question. >> barb, a perfect case. do you agree with that? >> well, it's a good case, in that they have a developed report. unlike minnesota and michigan which were decided sort of preliminarily, they now have had testimony, testimony from people who are there on january 6th. they had testimony from people who were part of planning the rallies, and testimony from experts about the president's power. so i do think this case is the better developed record. one other interesting fact about the colorado case, it's brought by the republican party in colorado. it is their claim they will be injured if donald trump is on the ballot and then ultimately declared ineligible. so, i think all of those reasons makes this case one of the most interesting vehicle and the most ripe for appeal to the supreme court. >> barb, yesterday attorneys for the group in michigan that filed the lawsuit, asked the state supreme court to hear an appeal of the lower court's ruling. the judge rejected the group areas arguments, saying it was the proper rule. what do you make of that order from the judge, and what happens next after the appeal? >> yeah. so the judge in michigan said this was a political question that could be decided only by congress. that's really an open question legally. the language of the 14th amendment doesn't really specify how it should be executed. there's an argument it's self-executing. there's an argument that another provision of the 14th amendment says congress has to act and sort of enact enabling legislation to describe what the process is. so that's what the judge ruled currently. that can be appealed, of course. i imagine some, if not all of these cases, will eventually be resolved by the supreme court. there's an urgency to it. secretaries of state offices are printing the ballot soon so time is of the essence in decision whether trump is eligible. >> i wonder how calm and collected you are, time is of the essence. >> i'm rooting for it. i'm not a legal expert. as a veteran, a father, as american, block him, gag him, arrest him. what takes him out of this political equation and out of our national security environment is good for america. so, i'm rooting for it. i don't know where it's going to pan out, but i think there's a powerful role for republicans and independents to play in this entire conversation, and moving people and ultimately if it goes to an election, to have a determining order. barbara and paul, thank you so much for joining us. we have a quick break to sneak in, and then we'll be right back. a quick break to sneak in, and then we'll be right back ♪♪ if you're on medicare, remember, the annual enrollment period is here. the time to choose your coverage begins october 15th and ends december 7th. so call unitedhealthcare and see how you can get more of what matters, with our broad range of plans including an aarp medicare advantage plan from unitedhealthcare. it can combine your hospital and doctor coverage with part d prescription drug coverage, and more, all in one simple plan. these plans are made to support your whole health with $0 annual physical exams, $0 lab tests and $0 preventive care like mammograms and colonoscopies. and you'll get more for your medicare dollar with $0 copays on most covered dental services a $0 eye exam and an allowance for eyewear plus $0 copays on hundreds of prescriptions, at the pharmacy or by mail. now's the time to look at unitedhealthcare's variety of plans. so give us a call to learn more about coverage options in your area. with our right plan promise, you have our commitment to helping you find the right plan for your needs. and to help make life with medicare simpler, you'll get the all-in-one member ucard. only from unitedhealthcare, the ucard is your unitedhealthcare member id and much more. show your ucard when you visit your primary care provider, dentist or eye doctor, or fill a prescription at the pharmacy. and use it to access medicare advantage's largest national network of providers. you can count on unitedhealthcare to help you get the care you need, when you need it. enrollment ends december 7th. now's the time to learn more about america's most chosen medicare advantage plans and how they can open doors to a simpler healthcare experience with the all-in-one ucard. call unitedhealthcare today about the only medicare advantage plans with the aarp name and get more of what matters to you. (music ends) finally tonight, our thoughts are with the carter family. today we learned the ross alynn carter has entered hose pit care at home, alongside her husband, jimmy carter. in may she was diagnosed with dementia. the grandson reports that they're spending time with each other and their family, and they're grateful for the outpouring of love and support they have received. another break for us. we'll be right back. ived another brk eafor us we'll be right back. hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. is this for me? (sniffs) if you like squeaky toys from chewy it is. did i get anything this year? get daily deals on the chewy app this holiday season. i'm still going to eat your socks. no you're not. shop the chewy app for gifts that deliver excitement. thank you for spending part of your friday with us. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, have a good weekend. there's a new battle shaking up between donald trump and jack smith, who says he's going to make big arguments on monday they think could help advance their case. elon musk under fire, now for deliberately, literally pushing an anti-semitic tropes. we have michael steele here, ending the week in style. but steele is here to help us walk through how the republican party is continuing to lose these

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