viewers, most people with an internet connection have now seen. you're looking at it. maybe you've absorbed it. maybe you've discussed it. unlike so many facts and stories and developments in our modern life, this is something we are all seeing together. it's an image we've seen, and americans have seen it, i would argue, based on the information we have, even if many typically use different sources for media and information and have different ideas about what the big story of the day is or what they've heard or what's important. this unprecedented mug shot of the indicted former president, legally presumed innocent, has pierced the filters and polarized experiences of our area. just about everyone, i think, has seen what is now an indelible, permanent part of the history and the reality of this defendant slash former president, donald trump. you are looking at both news, and we can say we think even with intellectual humility tonight, you are looking at history in the making. the mug shot of this rico defendant, who repeatedly tried to overturn and steal the election. that fact is not in doubt. whether that fact became a crime, did it go beyond talking about it, musing about it, thinking about it? did it go into criminal territory of stealing the election? that is what will ultimately be adjudicated. this is a big deal. to the fulton county court system, i can tell you this defendant is now not just so much an ex-president, although he was treated with certain legal measures that reflect that, like having his guards with him as he legally may. but he is, according to georgia, this identification number. po 1135809. that is in the court documents, which are public record for him and any other defendant, along with his $200,000 bond on which he was released. this is significant, and one of those nights where we want to make sure to reflect how it is playing out not only in our country but around the world. a historic spectacle. an instant american artifact, another article says. "the post" reports that the image gives everyone this immediate moment for the public debate. you can view the mug shot. you can view this defendant and his facial expression, which was a clearly practiced choice, as potentially a hero or a showman or a, quote, scoundrel. that debate may rage on. there is no major debate that this mug shot image, like the others of the co-defendants we started to get this week, this matters. it reflects something real, and it is here to stay. "the washington post" says it's a mug shot seen around the world. "the times" reports a mug shot for history. an instantly iconic photo that also is, as "the wall street journal" reports, an immediate hit product. the journal, of course, is the business press, and we would be remiss not to mention that they report trump's mug shot, a presidential first, is also, as a business story, a merch bonanza. the often staid associated press captures this with a succinct headline. one midge, one face, one american moment -- the trump mug shot. the reporting i wanted to share with you from the a.p., which is assiduously nonpartisan, but understands the significance of this, not whether you like or dislike the face on this screen, not whether you think he's guilty or not, which is ultimately up to a jury, but what this means. quote, a mug shot is a visceral representation of the criminal justice system, a symbol of lost freedom. it permanently memorializes one of the worst days of a person's life, a moment not meant for a scrapbook, end quote. i got to tell you something as we go through this together and we try to report on the facts here and our team goes through all of this with you. when you look at something like this and you read what the a.p. says, it almost sounds obvious. duh, mug shot bad. and yet i refer to the polarized environment. you have people who because of their political views or because of the habit of trolling and lying about everything, are actually, with a straight face, trying to say that this somehow either will be either nothing or a positive for the defendant. that's not true. legally he's still presumed innocent and getting booked in a mug shot as we reported earlier this week when we went through other examples, including democrat john edwards, el chapo, gotti, getting booked alone doesn't mean you're guilty. i say that for context because trump is trying to claim the image as his own. you can say, oh, a grifter is going to sell anything. but a choice to put this dark day, as the a.p. called it, on your own fund-raising merchandise is extreme by any measure. and so they're doing that. i'm not necessarily going to show you all that tonight, but i'm mentioning it. but then trump's own comments after the booking also reveal a man who seemed, in some sense, affected or rattled by the experience. >> terrible experience. i came in. i was treated very nicely, but it is what it is. i took a mug shot, which i never heard the words mug shot that wasn't -- didn't teach me that at the wharton school of finance. i went through an experience today that i never thought i'd have to go through. >> let's take him at his word there. we do fact checks. we do context. but as donald trump has so often proven to be, "the washington post" said he's lied more than any other public government figure, and they track that. and yet right there you heard a kind of a blurted truth. watergate prosecutor nick akerman standing by. i'm going to ask him about that and how it relates to other people booked because it was almost like this person who was caught lying so much actually had to cough up his feeling about how it went. it's not fun. you can sell the merch. you can have some other staffer write an email where you claim to be just, you know, bring on the indictments. but then you heard it in his own voice. we can also tell you trump said it's not a, quote, comfortable feeling to get that shot. that was in a new fox news interview. defendant trump went down to georgia yesterday because he had to. in fact, rachel maddow and our team was discussing this just last night during the special coverage, that for all the bluster and the attacks on the prosecutors, what that physically represents, what the mug shot shows is their power on behalf of the government and the people, which this defendant surrendered to. that's happened at the state level yesterday and the federal level before that. that's a good thing because this is a nation of laws. it's not a good thing if you just want to be trolling or negative about someone you have a disagreement with. indeed, it's a free country. you can feel whatever you want. but as a system of justice, we do not want the criminal justice system to be some sort of effort at score settling or humiliation. quite the opposite. but right now, what he has subjected himself to shows who's in charge. it's not the defendants. one by one, the rest of his co-defendants filed into court for that processing. 19 have turned themselves in. 1 remains in jail trying to work out a bond deal. the d.a. never needed to issue any of the warrants as threatened because nobody wanted to go down that game of losing chicken with the prosecutor. now, some of these individuals are basically fighting, some saying they should be tried in a different courtroom in federal court, which is fine. they can argue that, and we'll get that worked out in the courts. some maintain their innocence. some are demanding a speedy trial. each one of these individuals is presumed innocent and entitled and afforded those rights to pursue what they think is their best option, whether that is full defense or a plea or something else. now, some are blaming donald trump with their public words. we have more on that coming up this hour. what you're looking at, if you take it together, the indicted rico criminal conspiracy. these are the top people starting with the booked defendant in the upper left, donald trump, and the booked lawyer, former rico prosecutor giuliani, and the booked coup memo author john eastman, and the booked lawyer kenneth chesebro and many other lawyers below him. these are people that are indicted on a criminal conspiracy of racketeering to overturn an election. so they are both indicted for that, which means the system has already established enough evidence to get to this point, to get these mug shots, to get these bookings. but they are also legally presumed innocent because to get to the next point of conviction is a much higher burden of proof. that burden solely on the government of georgia, solely on the prosecutors, not on these individuals. this is a big deal no matter how you slice it. go around the world, and we've seen already some of the international coverage pouring in. different languages, different places. a big deal for this defendant. a big deal for america. and that's why we begin tonight with what comes next. a big deal for this process, for this defendant, for this moment. and i say this with all sincerity, and i really mean this. that involves our country, our society, you. because you watch the news, you presumably care. doing this in good faith together at a time when so many people operate in bad faith. good faith means a search for justice and accountability. you see why people care about that accountability. it also means respecting this. the person on your screen, whatever you think of him, his politics, or even the face he made, is legally presumed innocent. this is a process of evidence, not hate or emotion. and if he is ultimately acquitted in this or other cases, then we as a society must respect that outcome as well. with that in mind, we have some very special guests. we have nick akerman and jason johnson. nick, your open table here. this is a moment you predicted. you said the evidence supported it. you also said it would happen. a lot of people said the opposite, this would never happen. you were right about that. i said it to you actually in private, but i want to say it here. what do you feel today, and what should the public feel as i emphasize that this isn't about politics or your opinion of mr. trump's otherwise political tenure? >> no. i think what people have to focus on is just what you said, the evidence. the facts that are laid out in that indictment. in fact, i would invite everybody to look at that indictment and read it from cover to cover because when donald trump gets up and says that he's being railroaded, that this is for politics, the fact of the matter is there is real, hard evidence that he lied repeatedly about the election being stolen from him, and he tried to steal the election from joe biden. i mean that's what this case is about. it's about lying and stealing. it's that simple. and i think you really have to read the entire indictment to understand that. and to also read the one in washington that's been filed because that dovetails with it neatly. and then to look at the other indictments too. i mean these are not inconsequential either. the one on classified documents, the facts are there. again, he lied. he stole the documents from the white house, and then he lied to the government to try and keep them and cover it up. and the same with the case in new york. the facts are there. people have to read them. this is a guy who cooked the books at the trump organization, not because he was just trying to do it for the heck of it. he was trying to cover up from the american people payoffs that he made to a porn star so that they wouldn't learn about it prior to the 2016 election. and these two other cases, the one in georgia and the one in d.c. relate to how he tried to defraud the united states out of the second election, being to try and steal the election from joe biden. so you really have two pretty neat bookends here, both from 2016 and 2020. and i really urge the viewers to read these indictments. >> look at the evidence. jason, same question. big picture at the end of this week. >> it's a strange picture, and it's a strange time, ari. i'm not happy, right, because as far as i'm concerned, all of these court cases, all of these indictments don't mean anything if he's still able to run for president next year. unless he is found disqualified from running for president, he is still a danger to our democracy. so if this is a step in the direction of preventing him from running again or forcing him to step down, then it's great. if it's not -- >> let me push you on that as we look at the mug shot. this is a step. the prosecutors were in control of the timeline, not him. whatever efforts they made, whatever delays, we've covered some of the doj delays although they ultimately acted, as did this d.a. so that's not on him, and nothing about this process, i don't think legally -- i mean you're entitled of course to any view you share. that's why we book you. but legally nothing about this process is supposed to interfere with a defendant exercising any right, including political rights, unless and until they're convicted. >> right. here's the problem with that, ari, and i'm not a lawyer, and i don't play one on tv. when you have someone -- it's like if somebody is a flight risk, right, you're like, hey, we have to make sure this person didn't leave the country. if someone is a danger to overthrowing the country, then you do have to take politics into consideration because the crime he's being investigated for, the crime he has been indicted for -- not found guilty but indicted for -- would suggest that if he is not found guilty, he will try to do this thing again. that's why i say, again, this is a great part of the process. but if the end result isn't that donald trump and his cronies and his co-conspirators, if they are not removed from government, if they are not barred from ever holding office again, this is just going to be a blip in history. and in 35 years, we won't even see that mug shot in textbooks because we probably won't have a democracy to learn about it anymore. that's how dangerous and serious this is. i think this is one step in the process. >> nick? >> i think the most important thing right now is making sure that these cases get to trial immediately, both in georgia and both in the district of columbia. we've got a hearing set up for monday before judge chutkan. she's going to set a trial date. i'm hoping that it's going to be january/february. we also have an issue with the trial date in georgia. we have mr. chesebro asking for a speedy trial. normally with a multi-defendant case like that, that gets tagged to everybody. the judge at this point has said that at this time, it only relates to mr. chesebro. so the question is whether the d.a. is going to move to have the entire case put on in october or, in some way, this is going to be put over beyond even despite the invocation of the speedy trial act. but under georgia, it's pretty strict that if they don't go at a certain time after he puts in his notice of speedy trial, it's an automatic acquittal. and the problem here is that the d.a. cannot be forced to try this case twice. >> yeah. just briefly, you're explaining the strategy by some defendants is not necessarily that they really want the fastest trial possible. >> no, of course not. >> but they know there's a sanction there that would be normally what we could call a loophole. they're afforded that under the law, so it's not a bad loophole in the eyes of the way the georgia law is written. >> it's a loophole in the sense that they're trying to make it look like mr. chesebro wants his speedy trial rights when, in fact, i'm sure he's been put up to it by the other defendants. they all talk. they all have -- i'm sure they have a joint defense agreement. and this is not something that was dreamed out of thin air. >> no, but it's important because you're teaching us. you're reminding people how there's more than one reason why you do it. when someone says, oh, here's my motion for speed, their motion might be really for, i hope they fail and we get bailed out. i really appreciate you being our leadoff guest. jason johnson calling it in and sharing some of his concerns as well as what we take from this big week. thanks to both of you guys. governor howard dean is here tonight. we also have the trump arrest highlighting disparities in the jail system. something we want to make sure to focus on. but first, why some defendants are blaming trump. we have that when we're back in just 60 seconds. helping 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the key defendants we've been tracking, the lawyers who had direct contact with trump. it's one thing for an elector who's never met him, who's accused of elector fraud, and another thing for one of these people. remember, we've also seen the video of clark and eastman getting searched. we've seen the pressures people are under. both have now been booked in georgia. sothy went from the searches, the federal pressure, to state indictment and booking, which can change people's sense of pressure. then there's giuliani, who has lamented the entire process. >> they're destroying my right to counsel, my right to be a lawyer. they're destroying his right to counsel. it's not accidental that they've indicted all his lawyers. >> fact check. false. lawyers know the law. if giuliani did not expect to be charged, he knows he could have stayed within the confines of the law. he literally ran a prosecution office that indicted other lawyers. it's not a defense. the d.a. is charging ahead. she wants to speedily move the proceedings along. she said that in public. she's also asked the court to hold arraignments the week of september 5th. that's right after labor day. there are many ways this is picking up steam. indeed, we have more on all of this later in the program. but as promised, howard dean is here on this historic week. what it means to run for a president he never had to do when he was running for president. but he is a candidate that knows his way around everything that's happened, and howard, i'll see you right after this break. wi. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. i suffer with psoriatic arthritis and psoriasis. i was on a journey for a really long time to find some relief. 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around showing the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. happy friday. we are in an unprecedented news week. those co-defendants have all now surrendered in the georgia case. trump made history with the booking and mug shot, and everyone is living through this together right now. so we want to share with you some of these major moments as this played out. some of this you might have seen a little bit on msnbc. some is almost certainly new because no one can watch all coverage of all developments at once. >> we say around here we are living through extraordinary times. >> trump's co-defendants in the georgia election interference case are starting to surrender. >> attorney john eastman booked and released on bond. >> kenneth chesebro, the pro-trump attorney. >> criminally indicted and booked. >> rudy giuliani, a onetime doj official, just had this happen. this is his mug shot. >> they all surrendered yesterday. they've got mug shots. it's quite something. >> the scene outside the georgia jail, so much happening already today. >> mark meadows just got booked. >> history happens in georgia. >> a prime-time surrender. >> here it is. criminal defendant and former president donald j. trump. whatever you think of the photo, this is not something to take lightly. >> the only presidential mug shot will live forever. >> a historic, historic moment in american politics and in american life and for all the worst reasons. >> fair, for all the worst reasons. a lot of us have returned to that idea, trying to make sense of this, understanding the bad things that are tied to it, like an insurrection and efforts to overthrow the democracy, but not necessarily meaning that that process itself is something to rejoice in. and if you cover the news or you've been around courtrooms, that's pretty common. crime usually has a lot of victims and people who are suffering, and so when you go down the road of accountability, it's not exactly a parade. we also this week reported on more exclusive tapes of someone linked to these allegations, some of the conduct, but who has not been indicted, roger stone. new footage from the documentary a storm foretold. we were airing this for the very first time in the u.s. it gave new exclusive and incriminating views of donald trump's longtime adviser roger stone's actions leading up to jan 6th. >> this is not a campaign structured for a dogfight, and that's what we have now. so independent action is required, you know? >> it is very clear i was never on their list. the whole thing was a con job. no, it's infuriating. it's just childish, and it's amateurish. that's why they lost. they don't know what they're doing. >> we had nothing to do with this. >> we did nothing wrong. >> we did nothing wrong. >> change of plan. we've got to get these two his car now. >> everything. >> everything is now going. both trolleys. >> roger stone high tailing it out of town, which itself is interesting if you did nothing wrong, why do you need to flee? and admitting that donald trump lost even as he lied about a so-called effort to, quote, stop the steal. as we end the week, defendant trump has now been booked or arraigned in all of his cases, 91 charges in 4 separate criminal cases with four pending trials. we're now joined by a former presidential candidate, former dnc chair and governor howard dean. welcome back, sir. >> thanks, ari. >> your thoughts on this week. i just showed some of the things we learned. >> well, we're just at the beginning of this. as one of the lawyers that were on when you previously said. and i do think that democracy is very much now in the hands of a series of courts, some of whom have been corrupted by the federalist society selection process. so we're still in hot water. what we need is joe biden to get re-elected and stop this pretty much sleazy mess that the republican party has become. so we have a very, very long way to go, and i think all these indictments and the trials are only part of it. it's all going to come down to november of 2024. >> yeah. as you say, there is that direct link. jason johnson brought that up earlier in the broadcast because people are thinking quite practically. there have been times in other countries where the mainstream of both or multiple parties if that's the system tends to say that while one indictment isn't a whole story, it's definitely a grounds to at least pull back from someone and see how the case resolves. it is less common in healthy democracies to treat indictments as if they have no bearing on selecting a qualified person to be a lawmaker or chief executive. i say that by way of introduction to most of the republicans on the stage at the sort of undercard debate or some of them perhaps running to be vp, which may explain their answers, with regard to the very basic question about the effect of these indictments on donald trump if convicted as a nominee. take a look. >> if former president trump is convicted in a court of law, would you still support him as your party's choice? please raise your hand if you would. [ cheers and applause ] >> what does that tell you? >> that tells me that the republican party has knuckled under to a narcissist who means this country harm and that the republican platform is basically hate and anger. and that is true. the platform of the gop is hate and anger and fear because some of those people knew better. desantis is in way over his head and sort of a mini me version of trump. but people like nikki haley know better. and i give full credit to christie and asa hutchinson, both of whom have been governors, which probably accounts for the idea that they can, in fact, stand up for what's right even though, of course, i disagree with their views on many ideological questions. >> yeah. i did want to show you as well where the public is. i feel sometimes that the references -- it depends how you ask the question, et cetera. but the references to the public sometimes seem to exaggerate or overserve the right-wing lens on this, howard. but when you actually just ask people pretty straightforward questions, like here's the political poll. should we just have this trial before the election so that the answer can be relevant to the election? as you know, 61% includes independents and soft republicans. that's a pretty big number in politics these days when people are doing 50-50. what does that tell you? >> that tells me that the republican party has forgotten who put them there. this is the fascinating thing about this. and the one person on the stage that had some understanding of this was nikki haley. she didn't know what to do. she did get, you know, call vivek on his nonsense, who is probably the least qualified person on the stage to be president of the united states as she pointed out. but the truth is you need some integrity to be the president, and i didn't see a lot on that stage with the exception of christie and hutchinson. so the real problem with the republican party is they have knuckled under. i hate to make this analogy, but it's really very much like what happened in nazi germany. germans parked their brains so that they could, a, save themselves out of fear, and, b, they eventually talked themselves into the idea that this is a good idea. that's got to stop in the republican party, and right now i don't see any indication that it has stopped based on that debate. >> yeah. i think there are as well significant historical differences when you look at the practices. but with regard to the question of mob mentality and authoritarian instincts and all of those that are significant, i don't know if you know this -- >> well, not so different as you think. i mean what about desantis saying he was going to slit all the throats of the bureaucrats? every day it gets a little closer to what went on in the third reich. >> well, what i would say is the rhetoric versus the action. so, yes, there is authoritarian language, which is significant, and i definitely think we have to scrutinize it and, when actionable, the government's got to deal with it. yes, but not yet camps so to speak. i will tell you this, ruth ben guy ought is here by the end of the hour and she's one of our experts on global authoritarianism looking at these questions writ large. these are important times for the justice system as well as us to be precise and factual and all that. any good sign-off other than all of the gloom and doom, howard? you got any big weekend plans? you doing any maple syrup action up there? >> the one sign-off i did have is people are desperate on the republican side. many of those candidates are desperate to figure out how to get a little room away from trump, and be in the same room as trump without embracing him. they know that's going to happen. i thought haley's answer on abortion was absolutely fascinating. she knows, and so did all the other wunz, that abortion is a losing issue for the republican party. >> that was so important, yeah. >> that's going to happen more and more and more. the only thing that these people care about more than trump is their own backsides. they're all politicians of the worst sort. that was the one thing i agreed with vivek on. and they really are. but -- >> well, now i got to keep it moving because i got to save time for the professor. but, howard, you mentioned vivek twice. >> i'm going to stay on for that one and watch it from behind the scenes. >> there we go. you mentioned vivek twice, howard. he's invited to come on with you. we could do a debate or a discussion and then a fallback friday. i'm just putting out to the world. vivek and howard maybe. you both think it over. have a good weekend, howard. still ahead, we're looking at the front pages as well as reception around the world. 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try nervive nerve relief from the world's number one nerve care company. nervive contains ala to relieve nerve aches, and b-complex vitamins to fortify healthy nerves. try nervive. and, try nervive pain relieving roll-on. is back now at lucky! come kick off the season with our shop and score game that'll have you cheering for more! play for a chance at over 25 million in prizes and money saving offers - like this and this, or even this! or try to win $100,000 in guaranteed prize money. shop your favorite brand sporting the monopoly tag for unlimited game tickets and get ready to win at lucky! a mug shot for the ages. defendant donald trump surrendered to georgia authorities was the most high-profile booking that georgia's ever seen, maybe most in american history. but the authorities do insist that no matter how high-profile, everyone's treated the same. >> unless someone tells me differently, we are -- we are following our normal practices. and so it doesn't matter your status. we have mug shots ready for you. >> ready for you. now, when the sheriff said that, no other case had required this defendant's mug shot. so no one knew what would happen. it did prove too as we all know today. but let's be clear. some practices that are uniform in georgia and the federal case are enduring, but this legal process also is drawing much needed scrutiny on other areas that are not uniform or fair. take the cash bond system, which we just casually referred to. we mentioned the numbers. it quite brazenly makes money a condition of freedom, and that discriminates against the majority of americans who can't come up with hundreds of thousands of dollars just because they get accused of something. we talk a lot about racism. that is just unfair to everyone who doesn't have that kind of money, which is most people, or take the treatment of defendants and others held in jails like this notorious fulton county jail, known as rice street. it is what we saw on the footage and in the turn-in process, the surrender process last night. but did you know how much it has been condemned for inhumane conditions, outright criminal allegations? 15 inmates dying at the jail last year, 7 so far this year alone. >> a 19-year-old woman has died after being in the fulton county jail for three months. >> fulton county reaches a settlement with a family of the inmate who died while still in custody. >> private autopsy says thompson's body was covered with sores and bites from bedbugs. >> another inmate has died at the fulton county jail. >> the conditions made even worse because some of the jail sections cannot be used. >> so crowded, many are sleeping in public areas. >> we saw cell doors off hinges, water from leaks and other things we will not put on this broadcast. >> shouldn't this be investigated or something be done? well, the current justice department has already responded, opening a wide-ranging federal civil rights probe into the allegations of inmate abuse, neglect, and those conditions. there's so bad, that this is, as we just shown you, well-known and discussed locally there in atlanta. others have weighed in. legal experts, journalists, artists picking up the pressure. take the atlanta artist killer mike enlato, who called out the jail. ♪♪ ♪ fresh out of rice street ♪ ♪ shout out auntie gg ♪ >> the clear point there is rice street, what it represents and its alleged abuses, are known in these communities, known by people who have to deal with it even if others only kind of selectively have to pay attention to this or when we're in this surreal moment of a former president's booking. he was in and out of the jail in minutes. many pretrial defendants have a very different experience. consider 3,000 inmates are detained there right now. it's over capacity. the poor and black and brown people are overrepresented, and most importantly, about half, 45%, are presumed innocent. but unlike all these people who had the money to walk on bond, they're stuck in there before trial. the jail also was where we saw rapper jeffrey williams, young thug, held. i mentioned this earlier in a comparison to trump, and we covered this before trump was ever indicted there. this is an individual who's legally presumed innocent, who faces the same type of rico charges as trump. he's now moved from rice street to a different jail, but has continued to be stuck there without bond because unlike some of these other more affluent defendants, who are complaining about even their quick bookings, this rico defendant was not allowed out before trial at all. we will stay on these stories, including digging deeper into how it affects everyone. monday is going to be another big day in the trump case. in fact, i'm traveling to washington. we'll be live in washington for that case. i'll tell you more about that later. next, we have our expert on global authoritarian threats and the power of these images. stay with us. guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! 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[ speaking non-english ] >> many leaders of other nations have faced indictment, the mugshot process, the booking, or ultimate conviction for crimes in office. this is just a sampling. others served time and did rebound and hold public office again. this is exactly the debate we find ourselves in, which feels so novel to us, but actually, if we depart from american exceptionalism and pay attention to what's going on around the world and in history, we might learn from it. with that in mind, as we end the week, we're joined by history professor ruth ben-ghiat. welcome back. >> thank you, ari. >> on a programming note, sometimes we do fallbacks and culture at the very end of the week. but we have you in that spot tonight, with still something a little different. what can we learn from other countries' experiences in this aspect of this trial process of a former leader which we have never done? >> so you know, we're not, as you say, we're not the outlier at having a figure like trump. there's a long list of countries where sitting or former heads of state have been prosecuted or convicted. italy, france, brazil. and often when they have a coup attempt, it's dealt with very swiftly, bolsonaro was banned from politics, and most recently, a self-coup like donald trump had, they were quipping that he was president or prime minister in the morning and a prisoner at night. very swift. we have been an outlier because donald trump instigated a violent coup attempt over two years ago, and until now, has paid very little price. there's an enormous consequence to this. he's been able to hold on to his personality cult, he's been able to continue to get, you know, money from his supporters. and it sends a message to our allies that we haven't been serious about holding him to account. so this mugshot is telling not only the american people but our allies that we do consider everyone equal in the law. and we will hold him accountable and subject him to the same treatment as everyone else. that's enormous given the cult of personality of the strong men like trump. >> and the mugshot, which we'll leave up on the screen, is as i emphasized in the newscast, something everyone gets and sees. not everyone following c-span or the news or watches an hour of coverage or reads the paper. everyone sees this. its part of culture and life. you're saying that's an inflection point. do other foreign examples show an inflection point of the booking or the trial itself or the actual outcome of the trial as ever being a kind of a tipping point or do people stay in their corners because that's what often happens? >> it depends. a good parallel has been berlusconi, who like trump was a man of the media. he owned television networks, and when he had his corruption trials, there were hundreds of journalists, and he had prepared the public for years with the same talking points. these are not original, that he was a victim of a witch hunt, literally the same phrase. that he was trying to, you know, he was taking a hit on behalf of the nation. so berlusconi used to call himself jesus christ because he was both the savior and the martyr. now, it's interesting in trump's case, the whole spectacle of the motorcade, which was maximizing, he wanted to tell a certain sory through images. he's very good at that, and he wanted to tell the story of him as a kind of rogue with glamour, to be glamorized through this flashy motorcade. and keep attention on him. that's always very important. and then to sort of present himself as the man who is taking a hit on behalf of the people and trying to bring justice. and this has been his talking point all along. and then, of course, to maximize the outrage at seeing the mugshot, and that's why he re-entered twitter or x with at that moment with the mugshot, so he could raise money from his followers. i thought of the classic phrase of representative zo lofgren when she said the big lie was also the big rip-off. we're seeing that now. >> a great point and it speaks to some of the ways they remix and also plagiarize various routines. professor ben-ghiat, thank you so much. >> always a pleasure. >> appreciate it. i have one more thing to tell everyone about. i will be taking "the beat" live to washington, reporting from a jack smith epicenter, a federal courthouse. i'm going to explain why next. . meet arexvy. 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"the reidout" with joy reid starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> terrible experience. i came in, i was treated very nicely, but it is what it is. i took a mugshot, which i never heard the words mugshot, that wasn't -- they didn't teach me at the wharton school of financing. >> the worst humilination of donald trump's life. the mugshot, having to lie about his weight and having to comply with the law, as laid down by fani willis. also tonight, the usual