and i have been thinking about it. here we are in the summer and there's a lot of rico bookings this week. i know you got to go and i'm going to see you in roughly an hour, but i wanted to share that with you and give you thoughts for what might be the biggest booking yet. >> i invoked you in the first hour of my show, or second hour, when he told me donald trump switched lawyers in georgia from cardi b.'s lawyer to usher's lawyer, and i said, where is ari melber when you need him? i'm sure there's some journey analysis when you go from the lawyer who helped cardi b. to the lawyer that helped usher. >> you're so right. georgia and atlanta have a rich history, some go through the booking process and get acquitted. others don't. the new lawyer represented gunna who got out of a rico case that's still pending by the same d.a. and rick ross, who has skirted the law -- i think that's fair to say. but neither of those two individuals are in as much trouble as trump and giuliani tonight. there you go. >> most people are not. you don't see that description in too many time blogs. can't wait to see you. see new an hour. >> our thanks to nicolle wallace. welcome to "the beat." we'll start here with the pictures. may look pretty standard, but it is a significant roadway there in front of the fulton county jail, where defendant and former president donald trump is awaiting his rico booking. so that's outside the entrance. we are told he will surveillance render and be processed through the normal rules. now, many are expecting a mugshot. one way to think about it is this is a rico case where there are codefendants, and every other codefendant up to this point has gone through the booking and gotten a mug shot. but this is the news -- not a crystal ball and not a tarot card reading. i can't tell you what's going to happen. the president -- and that's why there are a lot of people girding for the rules -- the first ever mugshot of defendant trump if it were to happen, but we will just be reporting, with nicolle, and special coverage will ensue at 7:00 p.m. as this defendant faces his booking. the bond for defendant trump, $200,000. there was another one of those mugshots as mentioned. this is a new one. this gentleman on the screen you may recognize because he was the number one most powerful person in the white house. he was the white house chief of staff. that is a huge job in any administration. today he was booked. this is his mug shot, mr. mark meadows as a defendant in this rico case. like all other defendants he is lolly presumed innocent, but put through mugshot like anyone else. 19 looking at a trial date which could be sooner than they hoped for. today the d.a. made a request, an opening bid in the negotiation. and by any legal standard i can tell you this is an asserti one. it shows she means business. she wants to start the trial by october for all 19 defendants. that would be in about -- we know legally from precedent that a big sprawling rico case with 19 defendants usually takes longer to prepare. we can do you one better as we bring you recent precedents. there are pending rico cases brought by this very d.a. that have taken longer than that. trump's team has taken a motion opposing the date, which is his right, and we expect that squabbling to continue among trump and others. a last minute shake-up on donald trump's legal team, which is interesting given he tapped a experiencedg lawyer who we had on this show. and today he swapped him out and swapped a new one in hours before the surrender tonight. they haven't published the need for the switch. this is donald trump's fourth indictment, but tonight is clearly different than the other three that you see on your screen. instead of the court sketches or brief photographers we have been seeing in other cases, we are in a much more open and transparent system in georgia. indeed, if it goes by normal course, trump's future georgia court appearances would be televised in contrast to the feds. the other story this hour and going into the evening as rachel maddow and the whole team comes in at 7:00 p.m. eastern is how that booking unfolds tonight, whether we get a mug shot, and whether donald trump as a defendant does or says anything as he goes in and out of that jailhouse in an environment that in one sense is familiar. if you're watching this, you're saying, we've done this before recently. this will be the fourth booking for the fourth indictment. you see officers, live shots. officers pulling up as they keep that area secure. so, in one sense familiar, in one sense quite distinct. rico cases are different. they're heavy. there's a lot of pressure, and never have donald trump's white house aides and lawyers been pull into the any of his federal cases like this. with that in mind, we turn to a very experienced veteran prosecutor. david kelly a prosecutor for the southern district of new york, the distinction in his career that he shared with defendant rudy giuliani, although i can't say there's much else in common with the two of you this year, and i should mention in full disclosure as we always do, when i practiced law, david was my boss. welcome back. how are you? >> nice to be with you. >> let's start with what we're watching here. on the one hand it's just a street in front of a jail. on the other hand it's where donald trump faces what many see as his most sprawling criminal case. what's going to happen tonight. >> first off, i think what you just described as surreal, when you're talking about the former president of the united states, but it's pretty routine. he'll pull in. he'll be escorted into assalley port at the facility and taken to a room where he'll be finger printed. he'll have his photograph taken. and that will pretty much be it. particularly since his bail has already been worked out in advance through lawyers and district attorney's office, so this should be a pretty pro forma exercise that shouldn't uncharacteristically have too much drama attached with it. >> the d.a. you can code your sentiments. when defendants asked whether they could have more time, switch this to a federal court, which is a standard request one can make, she had the standard response, which is you have been given a deadline. meet it or i'll issue an arrest warrant and someone will come get you. meadows clearly under the advice of counsel backed down today. what do you think of the way she is operating? >> i think it's particularly appropriate. she has the juice behind her, federal judge who said, look, until and unless it's decided your way, you'll comply with the state law. and so there really is no place else for them to go. they can make an application. look, there's going to be a lot of pretrial litigation, one of which is throw federal court, a move i think is without merit under the facts that have been alleged, and there's going to be other facts as well, but this is the first one, and it's, you know, maybe a delaying tactic, but it's also been preempted by the judge who says you need to go forward and comply with state laws. state law requires among other things that you be processed, and that's the first step in this whole dance. >> yeah. david, i have another question for you as well as maya wylie who's about to join me. we're looking at a lye shot. sometimes you see footage throughout the day, mugshots. we saw vehicles and police motorcycles on the move. we obviously see the police presence stationed right there. it's a very secure area. all of this is live as we await what i think former prosecutor david kelly said quite concisely was both surreal and now routine in american life -- another criminal booking of this defendant, former president donald trump. maya, i'm curious to get your views on that. what we're going to do is take a 60-second break and i'm going to ask both of you a question. back in one minute. in one minue , and unlimited hotspot data. so, no matter what, i'm running this kitchen. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. meet the team... behind the team. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? he's getting paid back. orange slicesss. because this team all has chase. smart bankers. convenient tools. one bank with the power of both. chase. make more of what's yours. when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough. i said, please don't be too nice. like when you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know, the way you put their hand over -- like, don't hit their head and they've just killed somebody. don't hit their head. i said you can take the hand away, okay? >> then president trump discussing how people are treated during arrests or as suspects. hits very different today as he enters his rico booking. maya wylie joins david kelly. maya, what's on your mind during what we're looking at here? i'm going quote david again, a both now routine fixture of this year's news and still surreal. >> yeah, first of all i would say there will be nothing routine about a mug shot of a former president of the united states of america for engaging in racketeering activity to interrupt the democratic process and steal an election. because that's what we're watching, what is a relatively mundane process, but what it's about is anything but, and that photograph which we very well may see, as we did with a chief of staff, former chief of staff to a president of the united states -- seeing a mugshot like that, that's a staggering, disturbing and powerful moment. >> i appreciate you, you know, giving it to us plain, as we expect from you. we're looking at the live shot outside the jail where the defendant donald trump will be arriving. let's bring back meadows' mugshot, which is new. one of our guests john flannery discussed how you can see the difference. some people more publicity oriented seem to don a look or visage. mr. meadows is a hybrid there. he was a member of congress. he has presented himself in public but unlike some of the other mugshots we've seen, he looks -- i'm just doing my own observation as a journalist -- but he doesn't look to be faking any great humor or strength. he seems to be simply in the moment of what this is. and while legally it doesn't mean you're convicted of anything -- i have been care to feel say that -- it's not a happy day, not a great day. what do you see here? and what does it mean about accountability that someone could be chief of staff and could be booked? >> i think the photograph of mark meadows is a more honest indicator of what this moment is. it's serious. he knows it's serious. he knows this is a photograph -- you're right about, you know, not being the most politic moment. i think someone like a rudy giuliani understood this is a picture that's going to live and i'm going to do my best not to allow it to look like what it is. this is a person who understands the weight and gravity of the moment of that photograph. thank you, well, there you have it. you have an instance where these are two very powerful people, people who allegedly took action that violated some of the most serious crimes in the state of georgia, and also at the federal level in our country. and at a moment of incredible importance for the state of our democracy and the weight is right there on their faces. there's nothing to be happy about. there's nothing to be smug about, because this is the moment that says, you are an average person. >> yeah, you're not above the law, even if you might have operated that way. again, i want to ask you a follow-up to the great point you make and bring david back in. on our best days as a nation, we can live up to the founding documents, however imperfect the record is. on our best days we two towards that. on our worst days, they are hypocritical cudgels used only against self. so you and i discussed this on this program. you are a guest on this program because you have decades of work in civil rights law. when we look at this jail, this jail has -- in atlanta, has certainly processed many other people. i will say, many of them poor, black, and brown who don't get a week to voluntarily come in. we showed then president trump talking about what is often the way arrests are made, which is on the spot, which is of course more humiliating and sometimes it may be physically necessary. other times it seems to be overused against certain communities. i wonder what you think with mr. meadows and mr. giuliani, who seem to be -- i have a report on this coming up in the hour, said by him, i'm not making this up. he seems to be aghast this system deployed on others is being deployed at all on him. >> this is why accountability matters. you can't have a credible system, justice system, in the absence of making very clear it applies to everyone equally. you point out cudgel, ari, and you show that clip of donald trump in nassau county, not far from where we're sitting, joking about police excessive force. i will just say, the difference with the justice community, the civil rights community, the folks i get to work with every day is if there was excessive force used against donald trump today, we would say it was wrong. >> yes. >> but will donald trump acknowledge it's wrong to lie about the outcome of an election? >> very well put at this moment. david kelly, as a former prosecutor and a former police officer, which you were both, your thoughts both about what he heard there from then president trump and how that relates to what is possibly a day of accountability and equality in american life but also is against a backdrop in atlanta and other places that hasn't always had uniform justice under the law. >> i agree with maya on the accountability issue. we've talked about that before. so let me just scoot to the irony of, you know, his speech. earlier today i was thinking myself, as he approached this processing, i was thinking back to that very speech that you played a segment of a moment ago, and just thinking it was really be nice for him to have a taste of what it's like to be in the criminal justice system, and hopefully, you know, understand what it's really all about. and i think that, look, he's facing four criminal indictments. and unless lightning strikes him, the chances of him getting struck by lightning four times is pretty remote. so look, he's getting to be in the criminal justice system as the odds-on fifth here, and hopefully he'll get a taste of what he's been -- frankly joking about all these years and be a little more sensitive to it, understand what it's all tonight, and hopefully we'll see changes over time. in addition to bringing him to justice. >> understood. both veterans of the sdny. maya wiley is a civil prosecutor. david kelly, the criminal prosecutor, same post giuliani held. thanks to both of you being with us on a very newsworthy night for america. we have a lot more ahead, because this is special coverage. if you're trying to keep track, rachel and the entire gang will be here at 7:00 p.m. eastern when we begin that coverage. on this special edition of "the beat" i'll be joined by a white house legal veteran for a view of why so many lawyers are mixed up in this and what that means for their exposure as well as donald trump's. but our special report next, and we have been doing these for you, our team working on this in breakneck fashion. the contrast you see here -- the rico prosecutor turned rico defendant. i have a special report with new reporting on the rise and apparent fall of defendant giuliani next. 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(vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. i think an indictment is a foregone conclusion here. it's just a question of whether he flips on trump or not. >> let's pause right there. we'll deal one and then two. you workeder if him. you expressed your concernle you believe today he will be indicted in georgia. >> i do. >> long time giuliani aide predicting his old boss would be indicted in georgia. that's what ken freedman told us and now it happened. america absorbing the mugshot of america's mayor, booked on rico charges yesterday. the one-time prosecutor and lawyer facing the music for waging a months long coup effort, which brings us to our special report night row. defendant trump is heading to turn himself in to the atlanta jail as we speak. the latest estimates are he'll land around 7:00 p.m. eastern. most indicted aides and lawyers are gone through the same process. it's worse when he's accused of abusing authority. that is the alleged case with some of these lawyers, though this week giuliani is insisting the exact opposite, that somehow the very fact of indicting any lawyer would destroy rights. >> they're destroying my right to counsel, my right to be a lawyer. they're destroying his right to counsel. it's not incidental they've indicted all his lawyers. >> now, many argue the opposite. the problem for giuliani and some of his codefendants is that some very empowered prosecutors in georgia and the doj say the opposite. remember, the separate jack smith case lists coconspirators, unindicted. that doesn't foreclose anything. the doj could later indict or not. the lawyers are indicted because of conduct these prosecutors allege went way beyond legal services, arguments, brainstorming or anything of the like, which is of course protected and not criminal. but let's be clear -- the option of prosecuting lawyers and others is something giuliani knows well. the southern district office he once ran has indicted and convicted lawyers like any other citizen or defendant. and i'm not going to go through a whole list, but recent examples include former trump lawyer michael cohen, convicted by sdny of tax and campaign finance violations. take an infamous lawyer linked to the mafia who mentored a young donald trump. roy cohn faced federal grand jury indictment. being a lawyer as a profession is no defense in and of itself. giuliani knows this well because he spent six years the sdny chief. we put together this factual comparison, a story of his career, life, and law tonight. it's a set of images we couldn't have given you a couple days ago, because it shows the rise and fall. this is the same post, by the way, that others have held. david kelly who was a guest on the show, preet bharara. this sdny office is formidable because it's tasked with a larger assignment than idaho. it handles all federal crime in new york, from mobsters to wall street to terrorism. that's another reason why this week's fall is intense for giuliani. this is a former prosecutor who had a big portfolio, who seemed proud of it and road his whole career on it. he used rico against the mob. today he stands book on rico charges. this is the same leader who really built his entire portfolio by touting -- and i want you to listen closely to what we pulled for you tonight -- by touting high standards, tough law and order, and quote, tackling corruption in government. >> that was exactly the purpose of establishing this group was to take a group of united states attorneys and free them up so they could concentrate on looking at situations where there was evidence or possibility of corruption in government. and it's very necessary to do that. >> in all three branchs of government? >> in all three branchs and at all levels of government. >> listen to that -- corruption in government, all three branches. let me tell you what giuliani is accused of now, and there is a lot of evidence, include his own conduct, speech, writing and statements to government proceedings, while he's legally presumed innocent, he is caused of lies on behalf of the federal executive branch, of overthrowing the incoming biden administration. he is accused of fraud towards the judicial branch, some of which he partially admitted in a civil case. and he's accused of a coup attempt carry out in the legislative branches at the state and federal level. state of georgia's legislatei branch and the federal branch in congress. it is some kind of unholy trifecta which really is contrasted with what you heard there. defendant giuliani has every right to maintain innocence, fight the case, criticize the prosecutors in the system. he certainly has the free speech rights to do that, and legally he can have his lawyers make those arguments in court. i want to note the brazen double standards he seems to expect. mr. giuliani acting like the process itself and him being a part of it as a defendant right now, is an indignity, is a scandal. he is saying he is above the law and booking process we're subjected to that he subjected people to so many times. that echoes the umbrage of another coup member, peter navarro, who seemed not to be acting but really expressing himself about how he was treated by the united states criminal justice system. >> prosecutors are defending an american citizen, that this is an assault on our constitution. >> they put me in handcuffs, bring me here, put me in in a cell. they are violating the constitution. >> being treated, through all evidence we have, with not only professionalism, but with great patience and care. documented other stories, other cases where people accused of less have been treated far more harshly as maya wiley also referred to tonight. now, for larger historical accuracy, nothing about what they're saying is brand new or unique to them. this is not the first time people accused of problems or crimes who are accustomed to deploying law and order for others find it suddenly hits and feels different for themselves. indeed, we've covered individuals like this who get religion or whatever you want to call it -- get woke, get alerted to problems in american criminal justice only when it meets them or their family, and they suddenly become supposed civil libertarians or suddenly talk up criminal justice reform. new reporting in our special report, giuliani making waves by using his internet show to describe this process he's long compelled on others. now perhaps sees it differently or, perhaps for the first time, through the eyes of a defendant himself. i will say that within the remarks you're about to see, he did himself acknowledge that very duality. >> today i was brought into a jail like mr. criminals. they required me to put up $50,000 jail like i'm going to run away. president trump has to put up $200,000. just think of how that's just done just to public relations. >> just a couple points on that. you can hear even as he's trying to absorb or process this, apparent, indulgent, privileged bs shock that they would do this to him or donald trump. soefr speech art law and order, equal justice under the law is, unfortunately for mr. giuliani, somewhat shredded by his admission, which i would argue is a bad one for him -- that he didn't think this system was for him. it was for somebody else. they and them. giuliani criticizing the process as well. second point, while claiming it, in his view, was pr. now, that's not legally accurate. we've shown how these bookings work for everyone. it may be projection, because it was giuliani eyeing higher office in manhattan who according to counsel went parter than others to turn his perp walks into spectacles. let's review the reports relevant for this defendant tonight his days as a prosecutor, giuliani hyped the perp walk. reuters reporting on how he, quote, knew the public relations value of making defendants appear in handcuffs before the media on the way to arraignment. something he was not subjected to yesterday. in the 1980s "the new york times" note he is built a tough-guy reputation by marching accused wall street guys before the press specifically, so yes, it is often projection. now you have giuliani facing -- he liked or disliked it or to take any emotional response to it. the legal point is he was afforded far more deference than many of those others. the perp walk was a handcuffed spectacle. there he's just leaving. now again, i emphasize he is presumed innocent, but it is a stunning fall from grace for a former prosecutor to indicted coup plotter who's already seen new york suspend his law license, who went from person of the year in the wake of 9/11, america's mayor, a nickname he proudly invokes to this day after the 9/11 attacks, to now indicted over corruption and alleged coups launched against the very branches of government you heard him talk about protecting in his time as a prosecutor. he has become really the legal face of the attempted coup, a far cry from the law and order conservative he claimed to be. >> i think that the republican party should be a broader party and some of the direction of the party right now. i'd like to see the republican party be a more independent, freer party, party that reaches out in a broader way. >> the republican party doesn't have to reach out. that's partly about electoral strategy, but we are a long way from reaching out when we are reaching in to overthrow what the voters actually chose in a democracy. giuliani talked up law and order. now we use the skills, the prestige, the reputation he may have gathered for however long in the opposite direction. now, we may not know exactly why he got there that way, what motivated him. the legal point tonight is it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter how hypocritical he's been, doesn't matter whether this is about legally him versus them, right versus left, white versus black, although all those issues may ultimately prove relevant. the bar to convict him is much lower. and that is maybe what scarce him, because he has tried rico cases before. now, again, legally presumed innocent, but the bar is pretty straightforward. did he knowingly and corruptly take these actions? that is to say, was he deliberately trying to defraud the government, deliberately trying to have state officials violate their oath? did he know what he was doing? and boy, is there a lot of record that he knew exactly what he was doing. that's our special report. we have a white house insider on this big story next. 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>> so, i was in the white house counsel's office first year, so i wasn't one of those folks at the end of the tenure. that's pat cipollone and his team, and they were pushing very hard against all these things. i do believe those folks were doing the work of the people of the united states in pushing against those things. >> the white house counsel's office. >> yeah, the white house counsel's office. you know these folks, people around donald trump. what do you say to the defendants? >> they have been alleged to have committed serious crimes here, right? the fact that they're being brought in, no shock they have to go through the same processing and everyone else goes through. they're going to go through an arraignment. they're going to file motions. they're going to try to take some of the cases. they're going to try to break them off. we've seen some of that already. but i do think that it's not a proud day for that administration to have this happen today in georgia just like the other indictments, right? >> mm-hmm. >> and granted it's alleged activity. innocent until proven guilty. but the chief of staff to the president of the united states was indicted. the president of the united states indicted. and a bunch of his lawyer were as well that swore an oath to the bar. >> donald trump in a new interview that was released last night says that the fact that there's so many different cases and indictments shows how much all these assorted different people and prosecutors are simply out to get him. does that wash? >> i think the jack smith indictments, first the documents case, i think legal experts, lawyers including myself, believe that that case was brought, has merit, and is going to be very tough to defend. the second case in terms of the january 6th issues that jack smith brought, is going to be a very tough case to defend. and he's before a very tough sentencing judge if he's going to end up being convicted. i think jack smith did it a little differently than fani willis did, in that streamlined it to name a lot of those folks as coconspirators. didn't name them as unindicted coconspirator, which says a lot. potentially could still be indicted. and this case was brought -- the atlanta case was very much brought in a far reaching, wide ranging 19 people. that case is not streamlined. that case is going to go -- >> take longer, harder to do. >> they set a trial date. that trail date is likely to happen two years from now if they're lucky. >> i got a simple question for you. we walked through mr. giuliani's career. if it were a move, neither of us would fully buy it. we'd be the lawyers eating the popcorn going, that's a bit too much of a perfect circle. but a lot of this is on the record. should he have known better in. >> sure. he went up and those cases particularly in pennsylvania, my home state, he brought cases in pennsylvania and was tossed out by conservative judges, right? that happened in pennsylvania. there was not a stolen election in any of these states. there was no evidence put forward that could advance those cases. yet, they go back and try to do the electors scheme and the allegations are that that was done in a fraudulent manner. and to try to overturn the outcome of a valid election. and that's going to have some consequences, and the consequences of these folks who are indicted. who knows if it's going to turn into a conviction or not, but certainly actionable in something the d.a. and grand jury agreed was actionable. >> jim, veteran of the trump white house lawyer, appreciate you making time for us. hope you come back. >> thank you. >> thank you, jim. we are now moments away from the scene you have, donald trump's arrival at the fulton county jail in atlanta. these are estimates. we know he took off and we expect him to get there. happening amidst a new legal shake-up, because trump changed his lead attorney in the georgia defense case. this is drew findlay. he was just there negotiating over the bond but he's now out. days ago leaving this very courthouse area where all the action has been going down. we interviewed him right here on "the beat." here's what he told me earlier this year. was it, a, illegal, and b, wrong, for him to try to steal the georgia results after the state had been dually certified? >> our client did not break any law. >> how is that not soliciting or conspireing fraud? >> we are absolutely confident having looked at the evidence that our client has not violated any of those. >> do you acknowledge that donald trump lost the georgia election? >> me? i am -- >> that's an easy one. do you acknowledge that, drew? >> no. no. >> he did not acknowledge that, a theme we've seen in some lawyers. as a fact check, trump famously did lose the race, that's why charges hold some merit. in the interview he also explained, based on his own expertise, because he has background in rico defenses, his criticism of what would be a possibly rico case by the d.a. >> we're going against that same district attorney's office that's doing these crazy rico indictments and caging these young men of color for years waiting to go to trial. we have no confidence in the way they've handled those cases, and in like fashion, we have no confidence in their ability to handle -- and we think they have misread the law. >> as you heard me start to say, you get to make that point. the rico conspiracy statute is at the center of this very case, and that brings us all full circle, because defendant trump as we mentioned has replaced that lawyer who was working as early as this week, findling with steve sato, known critic of georgia's rico laws, and like mr. findling he has experience with what findling mentioned. he represented the new lawyer, gunna, a rico defendant who's now out along an other artists like rick ross, t.i., and usher. atlanta is known for plenty of things, cultural contributions. has also had its share of crime, rico, and gang problems. the criminal bar has this experience, the prosecutors have this experience, and it's all now coming together tonight with trump replacing gucci mane's lawyer with gunna's lawyer. can't make it up. we don't even have to. as we continue tracking this, trump's set to surveillance render tonight in the hours ahead. rachel coming up within ten meet the future. a chef. a designer. and, ooh, an engineer. all learning to save and spend their money with chase. the chef's cooking up firsts with her new debit card. hungry? 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(vo) for a limited time get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. edition of "the beat" with ari melber, as we approach minutes away from what is the expected arrival and surrender of rico defendant donald trump in georgia. our special coverage continues in moments with rachel maddow helming the special booking coverage of defendant trump that will begin moments away, and it will continue as long as it takes tonight, as we basically go through his arrival and booking. i can tell you, more than half of these defendants in this rico case have now turned themselves in thus far, but some cracks are forming. the prosecutors are looking to exploit. jenna ellis, for example, the trump attorney, is now publicly questioning why her funds are -- there aren't funds for her legal fees. former georgia gop chair david schaefer is now charged for posing as a trump elector and the reason he says is donald trump. in fact, this is in a filing. he and other electors acted at the direction of the incumbent president. trump and his legal team have floated the defense that he was simply relying on the counsel of his own lawyers all along. now, i have told you we tried to book a special show on a special news night and that brings us to a very special guest. leslie caldwell was the head of the entire justice department's criminal division, which means she has extensive experience in federal cases, including those that involve conspiracies or multiple codefendants, which is of course the situation in georgia, while the doj case with jack smiths has several undenited people listed as coconspirators. leslie, thanks for being here. leslie, can you hear me? i said thanks for being here. >> oh, i'm so sorry. i'm good now. >> you're good. hey, it's one of those, this is a breaking news night. i can hear you. again, thank you for being here. the first question i just wanted to ask you is, you have overseen a lot of cases including complex ones. we have covered many aspects of this tonight including what we expect out of the booking process, the mugshots of previous individuals. something we haven't gotten to in as much depth is the nature of this sprawling case. i did have a white house lawyer on earlier who mentioned it. walk us through what's different in this case from basically i think all the other ones that defendant trump faces in its breadth and its number of codefendants. >> so i think the big difference is the number of codefendants, as you just said. and also the fact that a lot of these codefendants, although they are alleged to be engaged in a common conspiracy, they don't all know each other. they don't all interact with each other. my guess is the former president doesn't know maybe half or more of these codefendants. so it's going to be interesting to see the pressures that the various individuals feel and how that makes them act in going forward in this case. >> how does it affect the overall timeline as we see a new filing with fairly early proposed start or perhaps opening bid from the d.a. of october? >> so i think given the number of defendants and the likelihood of there being at least some pretrial motions if not from all of the defendants, certainly from several of them. i think that sounds a bit unrealistic, but with the caveat i don't practice in fulton county, but if this were a federal case, that would be an unrealistic date. >> and so if you know that and i referred to that earlier, that the precedent would suggest it takes more time. we know the d.a. and her team knows that, explain to us what she might be doing strategically. >> i think it is in her interest to put the pressure on all the defendants. it's in her interest to have this case tried before the election and really before the campaign gets in full swing. i think she's probably trying to keep pressure, probably hoping that one or more of the defendants will decide to cooperate with her, with her case, with her prosecution. and the more pressure that's on folks, the more likely that is to happen. >> we showed in our introduction some of the very recent statements by individuals, which may not go as far as the cooperating agreement or they may still be trying to avail themselves of defenses but seemed to go farther than many have gone in the public record say months ago or during the january 6th committee hearings. what is your interpretation of those statements, people saying either i didn't do anything wrong or to the extent that i did, it was because donald trump asked me to? >> so, i think -- i'm not sure what we can draw from those statements. certainly, donald trump asked me to, it would be incriminating if the person who made that statement was willing to fully cooperate, but the thing about being a cooperating witness that i think is often a challenge for people is two things. one, you have to tell the truth, and the second thing, particularly after already being indicted, will have to plead guilty to one or two offenses to give the benefit of cooperation. >> leslie, i mentioned your extensive experience. i saved this question for last because i don't know if you will answer it. but approach this rico booking tonight, i'm curious, given the now four cases against donald trump, do you have a view of which is the strongest? >> you know, i think that all i know about the georgia case is what i have read in the indictment. likewise, all i know about the jack smith case is what i read in the indictment as well as the january 6th committee and other sources. i think they both read as very strong cases. in just reading the indictment and the allegations. you know, to some extent, indictments should read as strong cases. so i don't know how much we can really draw from that, but certainly there's a lot of detail in both indictments that i think these are not cases where a person did one thing and are being prosecuted. these are cases where people are part of a long pattern of activity which makes more challenge to defend against. >> striking. leslie caldwell on the big night, thank you so much. it continues right now. i'm signing off for "the beat," but rachel maddow, joy reid, nicolle, and everybody is here. we