that's what we have all these prosecutions happening across the country. >> jenna griswold, always great to see you. thanks for being with, us thanks for the things you do to keep our elections actually safe. she is the secretary of state, for colorado. coming up in our next hour, we're gonna call to order a special edition of the velshi banned book club. ominous discuss with two call scholars, one of america's most important most divisive documents, the constitution of the united states of america. we're gonna dig deeper into the section of that same constitution that legal experts say disqualifies donald trump from holding the office of the president ever again. another hour of velshi begins right now. right now. good morning, it's saturday, august 19th. i'm ali velshi. in the span of just 12 months, the twice impeached president donald trump has been charged with a total of 91 felony count. stemming from -- criminal cases against. tim he remains firmly at the top of the field of the republican presidential hopefuls. leading the pack by such a wide and comfortable margin that he's decided to skip next week's gop debate. he's even managed to widen the gap between himself and his opponents in recent months, despite his increasing legal jeopardy. two sentences in united states constitution could have grave consequences for trump's third presidential bid, and take him out of the race completely before election day rolls around. section three of the 14th amendment is also known as the disqualification clause. it states, quote, no person shall be a senator or representative in congress, or elector of president and vice president, or hold any office, civil or military, under the united states, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of congress, or as an officer of the united states, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the constitution of the united states, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. but congress may by a vote of two thirds of each house, remove such disability. and quote. some constitutional scholars have been arguing for years now, this means that trump's actions are or around january 6th disqualify him from holding public office ever again. that argument is receiving renewed attention, after william -- and michael stokes paulson, to prominent conservative law professors and members of the federalist society, announced recently that they've written a lengthy paper, based on the history and meaning of the so-called disqualification clause, amendment 14 section three, and concluded that donald trump is ineligible to hold office. their conclusion is receiving a boost of support in a new article that was just published this morning in the atlantic titled, the constitution prohibits trump from ever being president again. the article is a joint effort by the retired former federal judge, jay michael luttig, and legal scholar, lawrence tribe. they voiced their support for -- paper, while also adding their own arguments for why trump is constitutionally disqualified from the presidential race. quote. if donald trump or to be reelected, how could any citizen trust that he would uphold the oath of office he would take upon his inauguration? as recently as last december, the former president posted on truth social, his persistent view that the last presidential election was a, quote, massive fraud, and quote. one that allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the constitution. and quote. no person who sought to overthrow our constitution and thereafter declared that it should be terminated and that he be immediately returned to the presidency can, in good faith, take the oath that article two section one demands of any president elect, quote, before he and tours on the institution of his office, and quote. i implore you to read this article in full. it has been published this morning. joining me now is ruth bin got, a professor of history at nyu. she's the author of the newsletter that follows threats to democracy, she's the author of the very important book, strongmen. mussolini to the president. we're thank you for being here this morning. i appreciate. you will recall, unite discussed when donald trump posted that thing about the termination of the constitution, and returning into office. he subsequently made light of it. he did post, in fact, i think he suggested he didn't post. it that's a thing about donald, trump there's always a post. to stand by. these two jurist i have on an hour ago said, this is very plain. the constitution not ambiguous about. this if you have taken an oath to protect the constitution of the united states, and then you participate in an insurrection against it, you can't hold office. your thoughts? >> yeah, it's very, very important. that these scholars and others are coming out with this. i thought it was very interesting in those who could read the full article will see this, that the judge and the former judge and the professor were arguing that such the implication of this section three of the 14th amendment should be independent of criminal conviction. we don't need a conviction to do it. from where i sit, i'm looking at people who tried to dismantle democracy, and use loopholes in constitutions. that's very important. if your judiciary has been cleansed, that's what we call autocratic capture, if it's been cleansed of non loyalists to the leader of the former leader, or people have been threatened, it becomes more difficult to get a conviction. so, this is a democratic protection, in try and in our constitution, that the way they're interpreting it, that conviction is not necessary to use this democratic protection tool. >> however, if one reads the constitution, which again, anchored below to do, my copy of it is 29 pages long, that's not really a big read. if you're a constitutional littlest, if you're an originalist, you're one of these people that think, i'm only here to interview the constitution the way it was written. and these words are incredibly plain. there's not some weird pretzel you can twist yourself into to say that donald trump did these things. he took an oath of office, he held executive office, he swore to uphold the constitution, and then he had an insurrection, participated in his direction. i guess the question becomes, and you just pointed out, do you need legal interpretation, do you need some sort of jurisprudence to make that determination be heard the secretary of state of colorado the secretary of state made it determination. are you the legal age to be president? do you meet all the qualifications? in theory, secretary of states across this country can say, there's a thing in the constitution that says, you can't be the presidential candidate in our state. be the presidentia>> yes, therel comment by the secretary of state in colorado, but the other thing you need to do, if we, what's standing in the way is the charge of having but an insurrection, you need to change public opinion by getting people to believe that it wasn't really an insurrection, it was a patriotic act or it maybe it hardly happened, it was a tourist visit by some, you know, whoever's, and minimize it. and in fact, they've been very, very successful with this information warfare, trying to get people to forget about january six, or just considerate something that was very minor and has been overblown. so, that's another way you create a climate of public opinion, so said insurrection would not be on the horizon, and the, any prosecutions or any disbarment of him as a candidate would be seen as more democratic weaponization of the law. >> one of the things that you have spoken to me about over the last couple of years, which becomes very clear in this particular indictment from georgia, as you've said the republican party has been in criminal cover-up mode. literally every act identified in this indictment ends in the sentence, this was an overt act in furtherance of a conspiracy. the district attorney of fulton county, who has a great deal of experience in r.i.c.o. and racketeering and conspiracy, he has said that is what this was. this wasn't sort of an independent acts of rudy giuliani during a press conference somewhere and saying something. this was an actual effort, where they knowingly, they were aware they had not won the election in these various states to then fraudulently undertake actions that would cost donald trump to retain his office as president. >> yes, and what's striking is the scope and scale of the conspiracy and the multi faceted criminality that is on display there. and that's why, you know, the conclusion was the gop is acting like a criminal organization. and of course, what i've been saying to you, ali, and many times, that the gop has become an authoritarian party. that means it's a party that is dependent on criminal activities. so, when we think about the tools of the authoritarian playbook, but is propaganda or institutionalized lying, it is defrauding the public. you know, that was election denial. that is defrauding the public. and then, violence and threats, these are, you know, criminal activity. , so this comes home in this idea that it's a party. once you become dependent on committing crimes to stay in power or try to stay in power and get back to power, you have crossed the line. you are no longer a democratic party. you are in authoritarian party. >> ruth, thanks as always. professor ruth ben-ghiat, professor of history and why he, with the author of many important books, including strong, went from mussolini to the president. quick programming note, tomorrow night, will be hosting special coverage. during msnbc's many -- lisa menendez, reverend al sharpton, and me for the analysis of the gop's reckoning with republicans facing with seminal moments of a front-runner who is facing multiple federal charges. that's tomorrow night, a pm eastern, right here on msnbc. plus, i read the entire 98-page george indictment against the former president. scan the qr code right here on your screen and listen to the two part episode of prosecuting donald trump, right now. plus, today, we've got a special meeting of the velshi banned book club. we're exploring a controversial and important document that you know really well. the one i'm holding in my hand, the united states constitution. that's not. all i got exciting news. also, another podcast. of bringing all the details, coming, up until, then you can scan this q r code, to, on your screen, to be in early subscriber of the velshi banned book club podcast. which launches next thursday. unches next thursday pano ai chooses t-mobile for business for 5g solutions... ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. 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(chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? at least 114 people are now what, we have a ton of mulch. confirmed dead in hawaii, due to the devastating wildfires. the deadliest in modern american history. officials say to expect the death toll to increase significantly, as search and recovery efforts continue for the estimated 1000 people still missing and unaccounted for. as of this morning, 78% of the burn zone has been searched. this comes as hawaii's governor, josh greene, is vowing to get to the bottom of what ignited the initial fires. amid growing questions of what and who bears responsibility. joining me now, live in maui, is nbc news correspondent, steve patterson. steve, thank you for being with us, first of all, very early for you there. a lot of blame being thrown around, what's the latest on both the recovery efforts and the investigation into why this got as bad as it did? >> ali, we'll start with the investigation. the governor promising accountability last night. that comes two days after the top emergency management official in maui resigned, citing health reasons. there have been mounting criticism ever since that fire started, specifically centered on why those emergency sirens were never sounded. one of the most sophisticated emergency sirens systems in the world. that emergency manager responded, before he resigned, at defending his decision not to sound the sirens, saying that, essentially, they're mostly used for tsunami warnings. he was worried that people would actually go toward the fire, which was burning up toward the mountains. so, now, the attorney general is set to hire a third party or take on a third party to investigate what happened, looking at the preparedness, looking at the response. why weren't key emergency management officials on the ground during the fire. all of that part of the investigation. meanwhile, there has been another lawsuit filed against hawaiian electorate, the main power provided, on the island, with the allegation that the fire was started, based on their equipment. and that there was years of mismanagement, that could've prevented this, mainly, shutting off the power before this huge wind event that we got happened on this island. so, now we'll go to the search and rescue efforts ongoing, grinding, grueling for these families. still, 1000 people missing. i spoke to a firefighter who is battling this fire on the front lines, in lahaina. she can't go back to work, her fire station is burned down. now, the worry is about job security, as it is with so many people on this island. i want you to listen to what she told me about her fears. listen to this. >> i think the reality of having to process what really happened is settling in. finding something more temporary permit for housing for people. realizing that, oh, bills are coming in. mortgage payment might be coming up. work, am i gonna go back to work? my works not even there anymore. i think all of that is coming down pretty hard. well we're still trying to process that there still people unaccounted for. >> the president and the first lady still expected on their trip on monday. this comes as fema has approved additional funding. 5.6 million spread across 2000 houses. ali? >> steve, thanks very much for your boarding. nbc's steve patterson on the island of maui in hawaii. republican white house officials are hopefuls are taking the debate stage this week, except for one candidate. former president and current front runner, donald trump. i'm gonna talk about republican reckoning unfolding now. with my msnbc colleagues, -- and alicia menendez in reverend al sharpton. that's tomorrow night at eight pm eastern, right here, more velshi after this. velshi after this. ♪ they're why we walk. ♪ we walk in the alzheimer's association walk to end alzhiemer's because we're getting closer to beating this disease. join us. ♪ tourists tourists that turn into scientists. tourists taking photos that are analyzed by ai. so researchers can help life underwater flourish. ♪ (fan #1) there ya go! that's what i'm talkin' about! so researchers can help life underwater flourish. 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>> well, there are a few things, the fifth circuit -- is extraordinary it's consequential. there's a lot of conservative movements that want to use the conservative federal judiciary, to produce social change. and transforming standing doctrines is almost anyone can sue is a big part of that agenda. you also mentioned, i think, both that this challenge could set dangerous precedents for challenging other fda approved drugs on very thin or no evidence. and for reviving the comstock act, not just as a ban on mailing abortion medication, but potentially as a de facto national ban on all abortions, something we've seen antiabortion attorneys mention, and i think it's something implicit in judge ho's opinion. >> i want to ask you about this judge whoa and what he said. he said, you tweeted some of this, unborn babies are a source of profound joy for those who view them. expected parents eagerly share ultrasound, photos families and friends cheer at the site of an unborn child. doctors delay in working with their unborn patients, and experience an aesthetic injury when they are aborted. i don't really understand that. that's not really jermaine to the jurisprudence around reproductive rights and a woman. i'm glad judge ho has that sort of love for babies, that's fine. that's not really the question at hand. >> yeah, i mean, to really striking things. one thing, obviously, judge ho uses the language of the antiabortion movement. the central claim of the antiabortion movement is making, and has made, for over half a century, it is not that there is no right to abortion, but rather, that liberal abortion laws that access to abortion is itself on constitutional, because it violates the rights of an unborn person. there's a lot of that language in judge ho's opinion. the it's not really a stunning implication in the language that you just mentioned, which is, essentially, if you feel visually turned off by the thought of an abortion, that that matters more than access to the abortion. or the patient who isn't an abortion seeker, but is having a life-threatening health emergency. a static injury isn't something we've seen in supreme court jurisprudence before. we've usually seen treatise between life and choice, equality and dignity. a static injury it trivializes what's going on, in a post roe america, and away haven't seen before. >> yeah, i cringe getting vaccine injection, that's not relevant to whether not we should have vaccines in the world. mary, you point out that this is the kind of thing we could see, whether it's the standing argument or whatever the cases. and the, and this particular case is going to go to the supreme court, and we're gonna see something happen. what's your sense of how that goes down? because when andrew cashmere came down with this ruling, most people reacted with some degree of shock. even people like you. who read about this, and studied all the time. what happens when it gets to the supreme court? >> well, we know the supreme court issued a stay, which means a majority of the justices are not convinced that these plaintiffs have a viable case. i don't think the fifth circuit, for all of the fifth circuit spent a lot of time trying to rehabilitate standing in this case, i think the plaintive standings arguments are still really bad. this was the fifth circuit trying to resurrect a case that doug. i still imagine the supreme court may be unconvinced that this case is a good vehicle for many of these antiabortion arguments. having said all that, even if this case doesn't ultimately go anywhere in the supreme court, and i don't think we can rely on that, given that this court has sided with the antiabortion movement almost all of the time. even if that does happen, a lot of these -- aren't going anywhere. a lot of what you see in judge ho's opinion, particularly the comstock act, it is coming back in case after case after case, filed by anti abortion movements in the lower courts. it's just a matter of time when we see these claims before the supreme court again. >> part of the reason why people were thinking this judge was spurious, part of the fact that they knew it was amarillo, texas, where they knew how this was going to go, is that the allegations, the arguments about the approval process for mifepristone may or may not have had some relevance when mifepristone was approved, they probably don't. but they're not relevant today. we've had a very long time in the united states where we successfully prescribe mifepristone, and it works. and even longer in europe, where this drug was developed. does that matter? does the fact that the underlying argument about the testing and approval process of mifepristone, perhaps being flawed, how does modern experience and modern testing in modern experience work in that case? >> well, i mean, for the plaintiffs, it doesn't matter. the plaintiffs are arguing from a deep, long-standing antiabortion talking point, the pregnancy isn't a disease. all of the evidence about safety, they discount. and they also discount the fact that they filed the lawsuit almost a quarter century after mifepristone was approved, which also should raise questions about timing this. this case, i think, would also set a pretty disturbing president when it comes to when you could challenge the fda's approval of other drugs, given that the complication rate of mifepristone, you know, is very low. according to some studies, 0.3%. that's the threshold for when we can challenge the after day he approval of drugs. i want people with very little skin in the game have standing to come to court. it's hard to see which drugs can be challenged. of course, we would expect to see challenges disproportionately affecting drugs that have political controversies around them, whether that's drugs used in ibm, birth control, whether it's drugs used in gender affirming care, or the rest. >> mary, always enlightening to talk to, we appreciate your time. thanks for being with us. mary ziegler, professor and historian at you see davis law school. the author of numerous books, including roe, the history of a national obsession. still ahead, today's meeting in the velshi banned book club's nearly underway, we are examining a crucial u.s. document, the united states constitution. the sacred legal document that spurred callous debates, and even calls for termination from one former u.s. president. i have got an all-star lineup of constitutional scholars, joining, me plus some exciting news for all the banned book club members i'm one of those guys, by the way they change putin q r codes and restaurants, i can never actually get them to work. i lost a lot away. all i'm doing today, it is shieling q r codes. here's another one right here, this is a podcast. we have conversations with authors and literary analysts, streaming on your phone. we've got velshi banned book club copp podcast starting thursday, august 24th. you can scan this little q r code right here, on your screen. to subscribe. the velshi banned book club is next. b is next break free with t-mobile! introducing go 5g plus, the plan that always gives new and existing customers the same great device deals, and you're upgrade ready in two years versus three. meet the team... behind the team. the coach. the manager. and the snack dad. all using chase to keep up with their finances. the coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. anddd check this out... the manager deposited a check. magic. and the snack dad? 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it unequivocally all three. let's start with the words. although, at its core, the constitution is a landmark legal document, the writing is simply put, quite beautiful. take the preamble, no stranger to meaningful unnecessary debate, in a modern context, it begins with the three most referenced word in the entire document. quote, we the people. we the people of united states, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this constitution for the united states of america. these lyrical words read as defiant, deliberate and hopeful. words written with an eye to an optimistic future, like a rising sun. the constitution masterfully distill is complex ideas into bullet points. not so dissimilar to the style of some of the poems that we featured on the bill velshi banned book club. if you believe great writing is characterized by a cultural change, and perhaps, these are the most formative words ever written in america. at its core, the current debate over the constitution is over these words. there are two camps, those who believe the document is a living and breathing, those who believe that the constitution should be read precisely as the drafters wrote and intended. our nation hangs in the balance in these two sharply different interpretations of the very same text. perhaps the most pertinent example today is the second amendment. which reads, in its entirety, quote, a well regulated militia, being necessary to stick to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. colloquial known as the right to bear arms, contemporary debate focuses on whether the second amendment protects the right of private individuals to own guns. so much has changed since 1791, not least of, which is the nation's military structure, and capability. for one, several internal longer expected to use their household weapons for military duty. militias are actually illegal in the united states. the national guard has taken their place. but originalist's argue, for the second amendment to stay exactly as it is. everyone else argues for an amendment that reflects modern america, modern weaponry, and the relentless gun violence in our nation is facing. this is the reality with words, literature, documents, and a long time ago. for most, it's a debate about the actual validity of the constitution. but that's not in question. there are some, or at least one person, the former and possible future president of the united states, donald trump. who argues for a different treatment of this sacred document. termination. last year, trump wrote on trump social, in part, quote, a massive fraud of this type of magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations in our articles, even those found in the constitution. and quote. he wrote that. he denied he wrote, it but he wrote it. part of the reason we're so committed to reading and discussing banned books, this isn't banned by the way, but part of the reason we're so committed to this, is because this kind of regime that tolerates book banning is very often the kind of regime that will take the next step toward authoritarianism, that donald trump laid out. termination of the constitution. that would be the end of our system of government. right after the break, i'm joined by two constitutional experts, scholars. akil amar, a presser professor of law and political scientist at yale university. host of the americas constitution podcast. and jeffrey rosen, the president and ceo of the national constitutional center. america's leading platform for constitutional education and debate. debate holy charmin! oh! excuse me! roll it back, everybody!! charmin ultra soft is so cushiony soft, you'll want more! but it's so absorbent, you can use less. enjoy the go with charmin. 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with two people who know a great deal about the constitution, judge michael luttig and laurence tribe. i'm now joined by two more of the best people to whom to have a conversation about the constitution. akil reid amar, is a sterling professor of law and political silence at yale university. he is the host of the podcast, america's constitution and the author of the book, the words that made. us america's constitutional conversation also joining us is jeffrey rosen president and ceo of the national constitutional center americas leading platform for constitutional education, and debate. these two guys are not just, friends but people i turn to for some real guidance on the constitution, you are probably the two guys ever gonna do a literary conversation about the constitution to have here because you both love it so. professor omar, let me start with you. this wasn't part of the plan, when we ask you to be here. at the beginning of the show, i spoke with lawrence tribe and a former federal judge, michael luttig. we discussed the way in which the 14th amendment of the constitution directly affects donald trump and why the constitution may allow for accountability for donald trump. i want to just first read what section three of amendment 14 says. it says no person shall be a senator or representative in congress, or elector of vice president and then vice president, or hold any office, civil or military, under the united states, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of congress or as an officer of the united states or as a member of any state legislature, or is an executive or traditional officer of any state, to support the constitution of the united states, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. but congress may, by a vote of two thirds of each house, remove such disability. here is what lawrence tribe had to say about that. >> the constitution says a lot of things. but it takes people to honor it and to enforce it. now, some people have made the mistake of thinking that the many charges against the current president represent the forum in which all of this will be decided. the 91 pending criminal charges in four separate indictments. in fact, although those criminal prosecutions are terribly important, and it's vital that the president be held accountable and not get away scot-free, the disqualification clause operates all by itself. >> akhil, if i could ask you to put your animosity aside, that -- i wouldn't mind your take on what professor tribe says about the disqualification clause. >> he's a dear friend. we've coauthored things together. larry, that was great. you're absolutely right, it's self executing, meaning, we ought to take it seriously. ali, i love the fact that you as a naturalized american citizen, probably 20 times in just a day, you've held up this document, different versions of it. i don't have my national constitution's version, it's all beat up and worn out. yes. you're right. we all have to read it. we have to take it seriously. lawrence tribe is eminent, he's taken a strong position on one side. one of the two most cited, not emeritus scholars cited by the supreme court alive today. will bode, my former assistant, has taken the same position. one of the two youngest scholars cited by the supreme court. on the other side is the great michael mcconnell, one of the two most cited active scholars. by the supreme court. former distinguished judge, i'm actually on that list too. they disagree. bode clerked for mcconnell. michael paulson worked with mcconnell. constitutional scholars actually disagree about this. in fact, since you mentioned podcasts, i had bowed and paulson, my law school, roommate on americas constitution podcast next week. i'll give them hard arguments on one side, and they'll give their counter-arguments, and will let american voters, american citizens, decide. and that's in the tradition of jeff rosen, who always at the national constitution center brings the best people on both sides and have the make their arguments. >> jeff always says, even when we discuss a decision, jeff, you always say, read the dissent. very few things come out of the supreme court where they are professional interpreters of the constitution that are unanimous. so, i want to go back to what i thought i would start this conversation with. jeff, the second amendment. which is probably one of the most disagreed upon amendments in the constitution. you've joined me on this show to discuss this before. talk to me about the dueling interpretations of something, to some of us want to read, it seems obvious. this was about militias in 1791. very different story in 2023. where we don't actually have militias in the united states, and maybe everybody shouldn't have a gun. tell me about why this one is so stubborn and difficult? >> well, the best place to begin is at the national constitutional center's interactive constitution, where we have leading liberal and conservative scholars disagreeing about the meaning of the amendment. broadly, the two interpretations or are the one that focuses on the first words, which say a well regulated militia being that history for the security security for free state. and say that the purpose is to protect the right of the people to mobilize themselves them in the militia, and to prevent the federal government from taking away peoples liberties. and empower people to defend themselves by arms. that's the collective right interpretation. and then the individual right interpretation, which stresses the second part of that clause, the right to bear arms shall not be infringed. in practice, thanks in part to the scholarship of my dear friend and teacher, akhil reed amar, and it's no one will be in conversation with him, and professor tribe. that's a pretty broad consensus that at the time of reconstruction, the amendment was intended to protect individual rights and bear arms, in particular, african americans to defend themselves against mob violence before and after the civil war. the big debate in the country today, stemming from the supreme court's landmark decision recently in the bruen case, which said essentially, any regulation of the right to bear arms has to have a president in text, history in tradition. that's a new test that strong lower courts into chaos, it's forcing them to search back to the statute of northumberland in 13 92 to ask whether or not domestic violence orders, for example, maybe constitutional, which is a big case the course court is gonna take up next -- term in the -- case. essentially, although there's agreement about the individual rights core of the amendment, there is disagreement about the application of this new history and tradition test, lower court judges are all over the place about how to think about weapons the founders could not have anticipated, assault weapons, ak-47s, and the supreme court is really gonna have to sort this out. if they don't, a lot of gun regulations may be open to question. >> akhil, most, about whether we agree or disagree on various closet in the constitution, are not prepared to throw it out. with the exception of donald trump that time that he said so. in 2020, jeff wrote an article for the atlantic called, what if we wrote the constitution today? so, i want to ask you, because i know you to talk a lot, i want to ask you, akhil, what would a modern constitution look like? how would you even arrive at that process? >> so, i love the fact that you talked about not just the original constitution, the amendments, we're talking about the 14th amendment, you mention the 19th amendment. constitution, even if you believe in reading its words and you don't think judges should evolve it, the people can. it's called amendments. i want to remind everyone, there are also 50 state constitutions. we don't have to just speculate as to what people might do today, because they actually do amend their state constitutions all the time. constitutions are easier to amend. then the federal. since jeff has over his shoulder, actually, his hero, louis brandeis, louis brandeis says let's take a look at state experimentation, state laboratories, and one of the best arguments for gun rights, i don't own a gun, one of the best arguments is, individual right to have a gun for self protection is in most modern state constitutions. in fact, in the bruen case, there is a concurrence by justice kavanaugh, joined by the chief saying, let's look at actually other states. in new york, in that case, was really an outlier, not to be an alternative test to the statute of northumberland, let's look at how americans today, state by state by state, think about gun rights. that's a very brand-new scene idea. states laboratories, it's a very modern ideas. it's the synthesis of constitutionalism and living constitutionalism. >> the only failure of booking the two of you to talk about this is that this isn't a segment that should be an entire show. and we're gonna start working on that. because there's so much to discuss. i'm so grateful to both of you. akhil reed amar history professor of law and political silence at yale university. host of the americas constitution podcast. to which you should subscribe. and author of the words that made us. jeffrey rosen is the president and ceo of the national constitution center, and that does it for me. thank you for watching. catch me back here tomorrow morning, 10 am, to noon eastern. don't forget, velshi is also available as a podcast. in which i wear a vest. follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. stay wherever you are, alex witt reports begins right now. you ar

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