he's still backing out of the white house correspondent dinner. what exactly does a transitional phase of the pandemic mean? i'm charles grow, in front mehdi hasan, there's a ticking time bomb on the economy. nearly two trillion dollars of student loans owned by 50 million borrowers. americans now all more in student loans than car loans and credit card loans. it is significantly on the poor and non-white. this is not just a problem for non--- young americans. older americans have the fastest student loan debt of any age group. when the pandemic started, the education department put federal student loan payments on hold. joe biden extended that twice. but the grace period is less almost up and people warn that more americans are gonna fall behind. biden promised broad student loan forgiveness. but since winning the election, he has failed to fully commit. >> the legislation passed but the democratic house calls for a immediate 10,000 dollar forgiveness of student loans, holding people up, they're in real trouble. >> we need student loan forgiveness beyond the potential $10,000 your administration has proposed. we need at least a 50,000 dollar minimum. what will you do to make that happen? >> i will not make that happen. i'm prepared to write off the 10,000 dollar debt, but not 15. >> let me ask you because -- >> i don't think i have the authority to do that. >> you heard biden they're doubling down and doubting whether he could legally forgive more than $10,000 of student loan debt unilaterally without asking congress back in april 2021. the department of education examined the issue and released all the inclusions in a seven-page memo. the only problem? that memo's findings have not been publicly release. the only available copy is completely redacted. and even with the democratic majority, the senate has failed to take up student loan debt deal that can withstand a republican filibuster. but finally, this week, there is a small side of progress on executive action. on monday biden met with the members of the congressional congress, and told them he's not only going to extend the forbearance on student loan debt, he's also considering canceling that by using his authority as president. sooner, rather than later. here is what he said on thursday morning. >> i am considering dealing with some debt reductions, i am not considering $50,000 debt reduction, but i'm in the process of taking a hard look at whether or not there are, or there will, be additional debt forgiveness and will have an answer on that in the next couple weeks. >> republicans are already crying foul, saying it is a ploy by democrats to pander for votes in november. some senators have talked about introducing a bill to keep biden from forgiving that debt. joe biden made a promise to americans, and many americans are asking if our government can bail out wall street when they make that bed, why can't it help working americans facing economic security just because they saw a better life? with me now asteroid taylor, cofounder of the debt collective, which calls itself the country's first union for debtors. asked should, this is interesting. you heard the president say he could cancel $10,000 but not 50,000 without congressional asking. what is the difference? why is 10,000 the cap? >> $10,000 is absolutely not the cap. $50,000 is not the cap. there is nothing holding back the president from canceling all federal student loans. which are the vast majority of student loans in this country. this authority comes from the higher education act from 1965, and it's important to note that president biden, during his career at senator, actually voted multiple times to we authorize the higher education act. in other words, he was part of those congressional bodies that granted the power he now possesses to cancel student debt. and it's also important to note that his administration has actually been using this same authority to cancel the interest as part of these student loan payment pauses. it is strange to suddenly say, hold, on i don't know if i have the legal authority to do something i'm doing. it's really a matter of political will. the president has been boxed in on this issue and that's because of years and years of grassroots mobilization and pressure. but he have salute lee has the pressure to pick up the pen and cancel not 10, 000, not 50, 000, but all student loans at the federal level. >> let's dig into why he's not doing that. you see he's been boxed, and explain why the president would not move forward on this. this is something his base really wants. why would they redact the entire memo from the department of education which would give the rational whether they had the authority, we can see that. what is the reason here? i have to say the memo was only released because the debt collective avoided the memo. and i can only presume that it's redacted because it says what is obvious, and what is, factual which is that the president does indeed have the authority to do this. i believe his ridicule reluctance has to do with having a very outdated conception of who the dodgers are. he was part of a generation who got to go to college for free, or close to, it and didn't have to take on debt just for the chance of having a decent life. so he routinely invokes very outdated stereotypes, saying that student debtors are all ivy league graduates. that might be the case for the people in washington that he works with, but that's not representative of student debtors in the large majority. 40% of borrowers don't have a college degree, which means they have the burden of debt without a diploma. student debtors come from all walks of life. as you just stated in your opening. they are younger, they're older, they're black, they're white, their parents, their grandparents, their senior citizens. what's student doctors are not, is wealthy. because wealthy people do not have to take on that to go to college. they can pay for it, or more typically, their parents do. >> that is a fascinating anecdote that comes out of the biden meeting, according to those who were present, biden told lawmakers that he understood the burdens of student loans on a porch level since he recently finished paying off his late son outstanding student debt. people are shocked that beau biden, who worked as a federal prosecutor, a state attorney and prosecutor in iraq still had outstanding student loan debt years after his death. how common is this? >> i think that's might be because he has a private private student loan and the thing is people carry student debt to their graves. this is the thing with seniors, people are forced to go back to school because it is a precarious job market so because they are trying to reinvent themselves. or they're trying to stay out -- people carry these debts for decades and decades and this disproportionately affects black and brown communities, who have the most burden of student debt. because this is because of a lack of intergenerational wealth, wage discrimination, it makes it harder to pay off debts. it doesn't mean that people end up paying far more than the principal a lot of times. that calls into question why we even call this forgiveness. right? many, millions of people have paid what they initially borrowed but they are stuck in a debt trap trump. it sold as a left lane and it's an anchor that is dragging $45 million down, hurting communities. ultimately, i believe it's hurting all of us. i don't have student debt, but i believe this burden has to be lifted because it would be good for all of, us it would boost the economy, it would narrow the racial wealth gap, and the more we cancel, the more we reap those benefits. there is not a good argument out there from limiting to 10,000 or $50,000. the economic, social, political, and moral arguments are doing more. we're going all the, way and that's with the president should do. let's stay on this point that you are just making about who is disproportionately burdened by this. that republicans have a lot, or democrats say broad loan forgiveness to lawyer lawyers and ivy league rapids, who can afford to make their payments at the federal reserve say that 6% of white boards are behind on their borders, 20% of black boards and 23% of hispanic pores are behind. our system shift spores of color. why is that? >> once again, it is because of structural inequities. the lack of intergenerational wealth that makes it harder for people to pay for tuition upfront. or for parents to provide. it wage discrimination on the job market, if you're making less per dial compared to a white employee it is hard to pay off that loan. so the interest compounds and the debt grows. these are advantages that we need to address. and that is a part of the moral case for student debt. the argument is that student debt benefits the rich. but we need to again keep in mind that wealthy people do not have to take out loans to go to school. and we also need to talk about the main arguments, the people in your facility are often working for thing, tanks student loans facility. they weren't making the same case when corporations got that belief at the top of the covid pandemic. they were not sounding the alarm about the ppp loans that went to lenders. there is real hypocrisy here. so, if student cans -- it student cancellation benefited the rich, it would've happened already. so that's with the president should say when they have more cynical attacks. the more around here. >> thank you for joining, us this really important conversation. still to come, one of the habits of police reform. after the break i will talk to activists and author about why democrats have been in the movement. don't go away! go away! were delayed when the new kid totaled his truck. timber... fortunately, they were covered by progressive, so it was a happy ending... for almost everyone. it's time to get outdoorsy. so it was a happy ending... it's hot! and wayfair has got just what you need. we need a rug. that's the one. yeah. yeah we're getting outdoorsy. save on outdoorsy furniture, decor, and more. you're so outdoorsy honey. what are you... spend less on everything outdoorsy at wayfair. ♪ wayfair you've got just what i need ♪ we hit the bike trails every weekend shinges doesn't care. i grow all my own vegetables shingles doesn't care. we've still got the best moves you've ever seen good for you, but shingles doesn't care. because 1 in 3 people will get shingles, you need protection. but, no matter how healthy you feel, your immune system declines as you age increasing your risk for getting shingles. so, what can protect you? 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[ cheers ] are we actually going? yes!! and once in a lifetime moments. two tickets to nascar! yes! find rewards like these and so many more in the xfinity app. we should all agree, the answer is not to defund the police. it is to fund the police! [applause] [applause] >> and then with resources and training! resources and training they need to protect their communities! >> that was president biden during last month's state of the union address pledging to fund the police! never mind the fact that police departments are so oversaw, that millions across the country are now sending the extra warrior to ukraine. so it is clear now that this moment was no outlier. far from it. the defund the police movement appears to be over, at least for now. including four democrats! the president and his party have responded to the crime wave, and the collapse of federal police reform legislation by retreating like an army in a losing battle! to name just a few, and there are many, examples. in 2016, mayor decided to redirect 100 and $60 million to the black community, instead, two years later she is seeking to add tens of millions more to the police budget, and she has diverted more than $38 million of the covid money, to law enforcement. and in law and -- los angeles where it shifted -- democratic candidates for mayor, including congresswoman karen bass, argued over food and more resources to the lapd! and in new york, where mayor eric adams has been clearing out homeless camps, the former police captain is calling for 182 million dollar boost to the nypd budget, to what is already the highest funded police department in the world. to give you the process, in 2021, the nypd budget was nearly two times the entire military budget for the entirety of ukraine! >> we will do what is necessary to make all of our communities safe. you have my word as a former police officer, a fellow new yorker, and, as your mayor. it is essential that we empower our police officers and focus on the damning impacts of crime and disorder. >> democratic strategist james carville, and former president barack obama, have expressed their misgivings with the term, defund the police. the term is problematic because it is so thoroughly tackled, ineffectively explained, and the president behind it makes all the sense in the world! it's about -- things like mental health, and homelessness for example. and giving that money to agencies better trained, and equipped to respond. but instead of trying to face, what is essentially a messaging problem, democrats are effectively giving up on police reform. and high tailing it for the higher political ground of locking arms with the police departments, and pushing tough on crime policies. it is not exactly a profile in courage, but it is hard to be courageous when you are not allowing yourself to not be putrefied for betting on your own principles. joining me now, is activists, arthur, and host, of his save the people podcast. he is also the cofounder of campaign zero, a nonprofit that looks at reducing police violence. derailed, thank you for being here. always a pleasure to talk to you. what do you think explains the retreat from the defund the police policies, by so many democrats right now? >> one of the things that's really interesting across the country is there was a lot of momentum in the summer of 2020, going into summer 2021. and we should talk about the winds. there is good work that happen at the banning across the country, starting in louisville. they're doing good work in reducing use of force. 19 states a year ago introduced legislation about use of force. you've never seen that much confluence of lies about policing in one year. literally never happened before. i think that what we do look in the cycle, is that the narrative about crime increasing, has really spooked even our friends. forget the people that we are never gonna win, there are people who were our friends, and our friends that believe in what we believe. and this narrative about crime without any context, without people being in the pandemic or talking about seeing it -- homicide rates increase all in one time ever before, in over 66 cities. that context, the lack of context has really hurt us. and the rise of crime, it's probably the single biggest thing that we push back against him trying to raise legislation today. >> so do you believe that these friends are talking about that they really had a change of heart? but they really now not believe that reallocation of resources is the right thing to do? or are they simply afraid that the people will not believe them and not reward them from seeking this kind of alternative, this kind of change? >> so, interesting, i don't even think that they're afraid of the people. i think they're afraid of the police. the police -- i think we don't do not acknowledge enough how unorganized -- they will do things on washington state, washington passed a very good bill around police, and they restricted the police from engaging in car traces without probable cause. that makes total sense, the police should not be able to chase you in a car without a reason. that is easy, basic, moral decision. but the police will let people drive against traffic, and wouldn't stop, them and they were telling people that the law said that they couldn't stop them anymore. and it was blatantly untrue. they were literally endangering peoples lives to lie. you cannot find legislators in the state of washington who said they could lie. they were lying, they just couldn't side. and when police said law doesn't let me stop this bad person, law doesn't let me get them to stop committing crimes, that gets a lot of people -- you don't find a lot of legislators willing to say that the police are lying. we saw the same in new york city. the police talks about the mayor talks about rising crimes, you look at the data, murders had a historic low when you look at more than just the two week or the 30 day. but, you, know people are really slow to say that police fly even when they say they do. >> so the people who are most affected by both police violence and police overreach, are very often the same people. and those people are the base of the democratic party. what are those people telling you in the industry, when you're talking to them, what do they want most? finish >> you, know we encourage in our communities, email your council person, email your city communities. normally when it's in the news, or it's talked about, that is when you get a big outpouring of support. and that is when legislators feel the most confident. but when all cycles, that's when the police are most intense. they are certainly intimidating legislators every day and we tell people in communities all the time if you get ten people to write your city council person, your representative it matters a ton. 15 people 20 people, might as well be a crisis. people rarely write them. people really call. and i'd say don't to stop, letters that doesn't work as well, but straight-up emailing or calling is huge. that's how we've gotten a lot of bills passed. >> but then majority of people then say that they want to reallocate those resources, they are also spooked by rising crime and they want more policing in the neighborhoods. >> i think it's how you tell people. so you know, people across the board believe in provincial. every time we pull people there like yes we want to put the money somewhere else. people don't want the police to hurt them. so if you pull any type of restricting use of force, or oversight and accountability, or any type of demilitarization, if you pull any of the discreet things, uniquely across the board every time. there's few things we don't win on, and we rarely -- you ban chokeholds, then people will, you, know we won't be able to stop crime. and community members don't get, that but you'd be surprised at how effective that can be sometimes. >> let me toss your hypothetical. if you had a chance to re-brand defund the police and not use that phrase, what would you call it? how do you explain it? >> so here's the thing about the phrase. part of our work is to remember that we gotta get into the room. for some people the phrase works. for others it's just not the best entrance for them, but they agree with us about the ideas. and i'm never fighting people about the phrase. i've talked people about moving the money. we should just move the money to be around after school programs or something else, and people usually agree with that. people never intervene when this crime is happening, the police know their response. we explain to people, we want to stop the crime from happening at the beginning, and people generally get it. you know? the other thing we don't talk about is clearance rates. how many of the crimes or percentage of the police you, probably don't know that in the city of baltimore, the goal for burglary, the goals for solving burglaries in the police department, the goal, is 10%. the goal! that's the goal from the baltimore police department. in a year, they're only gonna solve telling 10% of the burglaries. when people know that, they're like, what are we spending money? on exactly. they're telling you they're not solving crime. 10% is the goal! homicides are only 45 to 50%. but 10%, if that's with the goal, is that's wild. >> wow. deray, for now on, i'm gonna say move the money. it's a great, phase thank you so much great to talk to you. two years from the summer of the protests, the moment of morale and police reform has faded, but the question of establishing american history is alive and well. up, next we take a look at how harvard's reckoning with its own dark history of slavery. that's after the break. that's after the break kind of work that i do, you are surrounded by people who are all younger than you. i had to get help somewhere along the line to stay competitive. i discovered prevagen. i started taking it and after a period of time, my memory improved. it was a game-changer for me. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. 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(fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when clients do better. that might be why most of our clients come from other money managers. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. we're talking about how the university's landmark report this, week it reveals how in the 17th and 18th centuries, the schools donors, faculty, and slashed, enslaved more than 70 men and children, who reported to the administration, address the -- to discuss some of these recommendations, and the significance of this report, i am joined by two award winning veteran journalist deborah douglas and emma payne. they're cooperators in the chief of the new online -- the emancipator. it is a collaboration between the boston globe, and boston university center for anti racist research. debra, let's start with harvard. how significant do you think this sub report and recommendations are? >> they are everything. they speak directly to this moment that we are in. it speaks directly to why the emancipator exists. too often, context is missing from daily news. and issues that impact us all. and so this report connects, our lived reality today to the past. harvard is not just an exclusive place where a select group of people go to learn and engage. we are directly corrected to that history, and this report is really emblematic of the responsibility that other institutions, including our government, have to address. people who are directly connected to black enslavement. >> and the report lists doesn't enslaved men, women, and children at harvard. some children were noted just as a little boy. we know that a young enslaved girl named sicily was only 13 when she died. what was the most important or surprising part of this for you? that the school had this extensive history with slavery? or that it was putting aside 100 million dollars to address that legacy? >> well, i think it is not a surprise that so many of the institutions, schools around the country, were founded and built upon slave labor. or they'd benefited from it. so that was a surprise. but what really is important is some of the acknowledgements here. harvard acknowledges that they promoted race science, and eugenics. conducted a piece of research. photographing enslaved people, this role that they took and propelling these theories and research, that was used to backup racial segregation, discrimination, white supremacy. it's important to get that context, because that trickles into some of what we understand today about what is being taught in medical schools. how it is when we go to the doctor. it has a through line! >> talk to us a little bit about that, amber, were you surprised that it's slapped at slavery? there is another discussion to be have. i think we should be sick grateful for what we do have. there is another discussion that should be had about the slavery that existed while it was in, a lot of people benefited from jim crow and the institutions, and all of that was also -- and flow to a lot of very powerful institutions. i zoom harvard is among, them i do not know that. but you think that it should've been extended beyond inslee meant proper? >> we are talking about two centuries of unpaid labor that created this foundation for the wealth gap across the country. i think, when i am curious to see is the amount of money is significant. it is going to go toward research and education. that is important. i think we're not talking about is the word reparations. the r-word. and how do you make something cool? how do you make something just? after that wealth has been stolen from black americans. what do you do to move forward and repair that? that is an open question that other universities are grappling with. we have seen other schools, there are contortions of other schools that are getting together to grapple with how to address slavery and whether to, put together reparations and funds. we see mad at the princeton theological seminary, we've seen it at georgetown trying to discuss how to work that. >> so, let's talk about something that is close to your heart. tell us about the emancipator and what you hope to accomplish with this publication. >> i am so excited to talk about the emancipator! we are reimagining 19th century abolitionists newspapers. just as the emancipator and sabotage a 1920, and other ones like the liberator, or the north star. they are calling for an end to enslavement. we are calling to an end of racism. that is a big ask, but we feel that through an evidence based, community focused commentary that we can better understand how our systems are built, and better approached solutions for the contracting systems that do not work. and rebuilding them from the ground up. we think that people want to be better, and smarter, and faster, as a result of the events of 2020. some of what happened with the impacts of the coronavirus with this surprise sam, not me. and what happened with george floyd and other similar cases during that year, really convicted people in that moment to do something. so we are here to help. >> so, amber, debra has described a moon shot ambition that you have to eliminate racism. just on the logistical side, how do you breakthrough? there've been a lot of efforts in this space, which is trying to deliver news through a black gays, a black prison. debra mentioned though north star, that did not go as successfully as people thought. you can believe in our management, whatever. but it seems to be an environment of where you get something up off the ground when it's new, even with the best intentions. how do you plan to break through that? >> i think that you are raising something very real. that often there are intentions there, the people are there, they're ready to do the work. and we know that the audience is there. that has been something that three of us, have tried to prove sometimes. two news executives, and to corporations, and to advertisers. there is a market for stories, and racial equality stories. when emancipating are yourself as a digital marketing machine, we are creating social first content to meet people where they are on social. and we're also in the community doing advance. but we are hoping that we can breakthrough by bringing together new conversations, and highlighting voices that are marginalized, usually. and are not usually getting that platform. we really believe that now is the time. this is urgent and that yes, we have seen companies that have strong sprung up and fell down. we all three have been part of those. at some point. and we just know that we have to persist. debra douglas, and amber payne, the chief emancipators for a new generation! thank you so much for your time. really appreciate it. this still to come, we keep hearing that we are on the verge of a post pandemic, or a pandemic transition phase. what is that even mean? 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doctor kavita patel is here. she was white house health policy director under president obama. she is now an nbc news in msnbc medical contributor. doctor patel, what is your reaction to what dr. catherine was saying about president biden, whether or not he should attend this dinner this weekend? >> yes charles. i am in complete agreement. but i also feel pretty strongly that there are ways to actually make it safe for the president to attend, and the protocols are currently in place by the white house correspondents association and even the white house itself are not sufficient. but they can, be that is the point i want to make. we can do three simple things to try to make it be a safer environment. we should, especially for the president all the other members. >> what were those things the? this is a dinner. you have to take off your mask. masking can be part of the protocol. so what's, how could you make it safe enough that it will allay the fears of people like dr. catherine? >> something similar to what they do for the president during the state of the union. look, you have high stakes. congress, supreme court. remember the cabinet. you have testing as close as possible to the [inaudible] spy testing, i mean a human you can actually look at what tester gunning and want your results are in even do the test, holding it for 15 20 minutes while waiting for the results. number two, having people not just come for the vaccine, but up to date on their vaccines, including boosters if they are eligible. we have that makes a difference with omicron. and then, you can have a spray pool and people who are limited. you don't have to have the regular correspondents crowd around the president. and delivered his movements. now, president biden might not like that. but it is important to remember what is at stake here. the leader of our country, the vice president who is already infected, can't make votes in the senate. think of the downstream implications of not just of infection, but not having these people able to do a -- >> misdirection still owe laying a challenge to the florida rolling against the mask mandates. what message would it send for biden to be dining in a large mask-less group of people? at the very same time they are saying that there may be challenging people to get on airplanes organ on trains without masks? >> absolutely. that is my other point. especially for being into the hotel, haven't been there for the last two years, there are hundreds of servers attended, hotel staff, you have no choice but to be there and be in that environment with people without masks. it is not just that comment you made, appropriately, about the analogy to the public health and translate. but it is also about the responsibility to people who have no choice to be there. you can go to the white house correspondents dinner or not, if you are invited. you are working there in the hotel or any of those parties around it, you have no choice. and that is exactly like the transit situation. where you might not have a choice, and therefore your public health comes first. and that obligation is. first i completely agree. >> if i am reading your answer correctly, you are saying, make this a potluck dinner. bring your own sandwich. >> or outdoor. outdoor potluck. >> so the cdc said this week the majority of americans, and three quarters of children, have been affected so far as a society we seem to now be resigned to the virus. and maybe, you could tell us this, are we approaching heard immunity? if so many people have already been affected? >> if we knew confidently, charles, with a future state of the virus was and it will remain pretty similar to what we have now, i would venture to say yes, we are pretty close. the problem, in one word, is omicron. that threw us for a loop. if you like we are always on for a loop, but omicron really throws for a loop and gave us a bacteria that are vaccines were effective against, but not as much as before. so think about the next variant. maybe is going to be like omicron, and our immunity will hold. charles, that is a lot of hopes and dreams. and i would like to have the measures in place so that we can use them if we have some of these future variants. heart immunity implies that we can just kind of sit and rest on our laurels because of these past infections. that is not the case. those past infections are not always translate to immunity that lasts long. and we know that even with omicron, people who were previously infected could still get omicron. so that is why i get concerned about using the term we heard immunity, or that we are out of the pandemic. is that you have these friendly soundbites. >> doctor kavita patel, a back to the little bit when you said next variant. i don't even want to think about it. but thank you so much for your time. >> i know. >> that does it for the mehdi hassan show this week. you can join us anytime on facebook, twitter, instagram or tiktok. mehdi hassan will be live sunday at 8 pm on msnbc, where he will kick off another week of interviews with key news makers. and don't forget, if you miss msnbc hub on peacock, that is where you can stream thought-provoking perspective from some of your favorite msnbc hosts, and watch all of your favorite shows, including this one. you can find the msnbc hub, browse and stream the mehdi hassan show. anytime. for now, for me, goodbye. here's candice... who works from home, and then works from home. but she can handle pickup, even when her bladder makes a little drop-off. because candice has poise, poise under pressure and poise in her pants. it takes poise. here's to real flavors... real meals. real good. all of knorr's high quality pasta and rice sides are now made with no artificial flavors or preservatives. knorr. taste for good. you're a one-man stitchwork master. but your staffing plan needs to go up a size. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire (all): all hail, caesar! pssst julius! you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. oh hi caesar. we were just talking about you. yeah, you should probably get out of here. ♪ ringcentral ♪ covid-19 moves fast, and now you can too by asking your healthcare provider if an oral treatment is right for you. oral treatments can be taken at home and must be taken within 5 days from when symptoms first appear. if you have symptoms of covid-19, even if they're mild don't wait, get tested quickly. if you test positive and are at high risk for severe disease, act fast ask if an oral treatment is right for you. covid-19 moves fast and now you can too. it■s hard eating healthy. unless you happen to be a dog. this is the katy thing show, live from washington d.c.. we have lots of news to cover, and lots of questions to answer. so let's get started. breaking news out of ukraine this morning. house speaker nancy pelosi visits kyiv along with several u.s. lawmakers. and meets with president volodymyr zelenskyy. what's they said about the trip just moments ago. plus, remember when republicans accused others of playing the victim card? well, now they are doing exactly that when it comes to -- but will voters let them play the blame game? also, pumping extremism and conspiracies into millions of american h