cornerstone of american democracy, and, yet, republican governors and state legislatures across the country have spent the last year curbing it, from limiting how you can register to vote and where and when you can vote, to instituting changes that could result in your vote either not being counted or the will of the people being overruled. compounding the precarious state of our democracy is that fewer americans trust the electoral system, and a sizeable majority believes the nation's democracy is in danger of collapse. with voting rights on the line, president biden laid out in stark words the choice facing the senate in a fiery speech in atlanta. >> what we choose, democracy over autocracy, light over shadows, justice over injustice. i know where i stand. i will not yield, i will not flinch, i will defend the right to vote our democracy against all enemies, foreign and, yes, domestic. [ applause ] do you want to be on the side of dr. king or george wallace? do you want to be on the side of john lewis or bull conor? do you want to be the side of abraham lincoln or jefferson davis? >> within days, we got an answer. democratic senators kyrsten sinema and joe manchin, members of the president's own party reiterated their unwillingness to allow for a simple majority vote on the freedom to vote act or the john lewis voting rights advancement act. never mind that they were just fine to allow a filibuster exception last month to raise the debt ceiling. it's not enough to have photos with john lewis, only to turn your back on his life's work. it's not enough to slap your name on voting rights legislation only to be the reason the bills will never get a vote. on tuesday, senate majority leader chuck schumer will bring the two floors together for a vote. he then promises to hold a vote to push through the rule change to allow for a simple majority vote. that effort will fail, too. so, where does that leave us? quite honestly, i don't know. but, history is neither linear nor on a perpetual trajectory of advancement. the revered civil rights movement that dr. king led and where we are right now are proof of that. 1776 might be the birth year of the united states, but 1965, the year the voting rights act was passed, is when the promise of its founding documents apply to all of its citizens. that means true american democracy is just 57 years old. and it's under renewed assault. how we meet this moment, not as democrats or republicans but as americans, will determine whether our fragile democracy mends itself or breaks. joining me now is co-chair of the congressional voting rights caucus congresswoman terri sewell whose alabama district holds montgomery, birmingham, and selma. thank you very much for coming to "the sunday show." >> thank you so much, jonathan. >> so, i made the point just a moment ago that history isn't linear and that advancement is never usually always on a positive trajectory. as the person, the member of congress who represents the three major cities of the civil rights movement that dr. king led, where do you see things going? >> well, first, jonathan, i think that now more than ever we need to heed the words of john lewis. john said that the struggle for voting rights is not a struggle for a day, a week, a month, but it's a struggle for a lifetime. and as you rightfully said, progress is five steps forward, three steps back. it is not linear and it does require demand. and, so, what we must do is not be deterred. if john lewis and amelia boynton still had the temerity to get up two days later and to go and march again, we too must not be deterred by two senators or even by the 16 republican senators that voted for the reauthorization of the voting rights act of 2006 and now will not vote for it. you know, i think that it's really a high sign of hypocrisy, but we who are in this movement must be consistent and we must be persistent. >> what do you say to members of the democratic party faithful, members of the base who are tired of always pushing, pushing, pushing and never seeing anything happen? >> well, first, i guess i disagree with the premise. yes, we have to push and push, but we do see things happen. we saw in georgia the election of two senators, one black and one jewish. we saw georgia give us the presidency, give biden the presidency. so our vote does matter. and i just want us to remind ourselves that we can be frustrated, we can be tired, but we cannot give up. and i think that that is the history of the three cities that i am so honored to represent, the history of birmingham, montgomery, and selma. it's of ordinary americans who dare to make this country live up to its ideals of equality and justice for all. we as americans -- go ahead. >> no, finish your thought. >> we as americans cannot allow -- you know, our democracy is fragile, as you have said. but the only change in democracy that occurs occurs when american people demand it. so we must continue to demand it. >> you know, congresswoman sewell, in the intro we played what, to my mind, was the pivotal moment in the president's speech where he laid down the marker, you're either with john lewis or you're with bull conor. it was stark language. and a lot of people were not happy with that. i would love to -- democrats and republicans -- thought he went too far. in your mind, did the president go too far in laying out that stark language? >> i don't think he did. i was honored with be with the president and the vice president in atlanta, and i wanted the president to be emphatic. and he was bold, he was clear. he was clear, he said do you want to be on the right side of history? do you want to be on the side of john lewis or do you want to be on the side of bull conor? i thought it was a stark comparison, but it was one that was necessary in order to jolt the imagination about where we are in this time in history. >> congresswoman terri sewell of alabama representing the three cities that are the crucible of the civil rights movement, thank you very, very much for coming to "the sunday show." >> well, thank you so far. and as we are about to celebrate martin luther king's birthday, i hope that people will not just reflect but that they will act. tomorrow should be a day of action. >> a day of action. thank you very much. joining me now, the reverend al sharpton, host of "politics nation." and author of "righteous troublemakers -- untold stories of the social justice movement in america." rev, thank you as always for coming to "the sunday show." >> thank you for having me, jonathan. >> all right. so you also were at the speech in atlanta. you were among the black leaders who had been pleading with the president to make voting rights a central focus of his administration early, early on. what do you make of where this whole conversation is right now which, to my mind, is both those voting rights bills are not -- they're not going to pass, they're not going to break the filibuster, and the filibuster rule's not going to be changed. >> well, i think that we must have the vote. we need to have a roll call for the american people to see who is going to be on the side of protecting the democratic process and protecting people's right to vote without impediments and who are going to be on the other side. it's why i think the president was right when he said are you on dr. king's side or george wallace's side or bull conor's side or john lewis' side? nope, he did not say that they were jefferson davis or they were george wallace or they were bull conor. he said, you're on their side. and there is no question that that is the side to disenfranchise voters, particularly black voters if we do not have a roll call where it goes down in history who was on what side, they will always be able to do the things that you so accurately portrayed today, but their names on bills but they won't do the rules change and make sure the bills go to the floor. take pictures and put them out on social media and people think they were on the side, they weren't. make them vote. if the vote is unsuccessful, then we need to go to the president and ask what will the department of justice do to challenge these new laws, can the president do an executive order? where are the options? but we first need to have the vote. we need to make people stand up and forever state which side they are on. then we can go to plan b. tomorrow is the push to action on call the vote. >> you know, to your point, rev, about people need to have their votes recorded, have a listen to our colleague craig melvin and his interview with vice president harris on this point. >> well, when we have the discussion about who's responsible, i will not absolve the 50 republicans in the united states senate from responsibility for upholding one of the most basic and important tenets of our democracy, which is free and fair elections and access to the ballot for all eligible voters. >> what about senator manchin? what about senator sinema? >> i don't think anyone should be absolved from the responsibility of preserving and protecting our democracy. >> and you know, rev, we can spend all our time focusing on senator sinema and manchin, who are democrats. but we also need to have this conversation about the 50 republicans who won't even allow for the bills to come to the floor for a debate, for the nation to hear a debate about whether these bills are right, should things be altered, are there ways of compromise? and to another point that the president made in atlanta, you were there, he reminded people that the civil rights act was unanimously reauthorized in 2006, and 16 of the republican senators who voted in favor of it still sit in the senate today, and yet they won't even give the votes to allow for those two bills to be -- just to be debated, they don't have to vote for it, just debate it. >> that is a critical part, jonathan. what is so alarming to me is that in 2006 when they reauthorized the voting rights act, there was a president that had the ceremony in the rose garden. he invited me and others to be there to witness the resigning. i was in the front row in the rose garden when that president sign it. that president's name was josh that was george bush. so explain to me what happened between 2006 and now that you could not get a republican -- not a one no matter one, as we say in church, to vote for what they voted for in 2006 and had a republican president sign. this has come to donald trump being able to bring out and sow political capital in racial discrimination in voting and saying the only way we're going to win is by cutting back on people having access to the ballot and by us also engaging in nullification, because part of what is going on now is they are now saying that we will select and decide on who are going to be on the election commissions in counties around the county, and they've already started in georgia. this is the steam to make sure that people that cannot win an election can get their way. and that's the difference between 2006 and now. >> right. we are going from voter suppression and adding on voter subversion. reverend al sharpton, thank you very, very much, as always, for coming to "the sunday show." >> thank you. and overnight deer dallas-fort worth texas, police say the man responsible for taking the people in the synagogue as hostages is dead. they stormed the building after a more than ten-hour standoff with police. authorities say the suspect was demanding the release of a woman serving a federal prison sentence for attempted murder in a terrorism-related case. coming up, the latest on the january 6th investigation after the justice department announced seditious conspiracy charges earlier this week. attorney maya wiley breaks it down for us as we continue this special edition of "the sunday show: our fragile democracy," next. 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>> it's powerful evidence. and really the evidence starts back in november after the election when rhodes goes on alex jones' "info wars" and essentially says the same thing. what we're seeing in this indictment is actual words or texts from rhodes himself both identifying the need for a, quote, unquote, civil war, telling people to get their mind and spirit and bodies ready, that the time is now. he specifically talks about mustering weapons outside of the capitol, outside of washington, d.c. in order to bring them to the capitol. and he's very explicit in these texts about planning for the possibility of violence, including the fact that we have videotape of oathkeepers moving in military gear. and, remember, many of them are current or former members of the military or law enforcement, and in military formation, it's also in the indictment but we've got the video so we can see it with our own eyes, they are moving in military-style formation into the capitol, and statements in all of the organizing leading up to it about preventing the electoral vote count. that is seditious conspiracy, and the acts to take that conspiracy to fruition are a matter of public record. >> were you surprised by this charge? because there were a lot of people who had been saying for a long time or wondering why haven't there been charges of sedition, why hasn't the department of justice moved in that direction? and there are a lot of people who were wondering if maybe the attorney general was too afraid to go down that route. your reaction to the charges actually being handed out? >> well, i am certainly glad that we've seen the department of justice who are very neutral and fact-finding before making a decision about what to charge anyone with. that is what the department of justice is supposed to do, not make a pre-determined decision about whether a law has been violated but to go about the business of gathering evidence and making sure they can bring a case before they file one. i think what we've seen in this case is the department doing what the department of justice always does in cases even ones that are not political in nature like this one, which is to start with as many people who are towards the bottom, the easy to get, the easy to grab, and therefore the folks who can start help piecing together the story but who weren't necessary in leadership, and you -- who weren't necessarily in leadership. you work your way up to the top that way. here's the culmination of a lot of careful and nonpolitical legally and factually driven work by the department of justice. >> let me get you on two january 6th committee-related things. the subpoenas of social media tech companies by the committee. the significance of that, maya? >> well, look, it's very significant. you can see it in the oath keeper indictment. you can also see it in the charlottesville civil trial. it is that the right has been organized -- particularly extremists, organized on social media, encrypted chat rooms, messaging. and so to get those texts, those dms, the communications that establish how was this planned, who was involved, what were they saying, helps the committee piece together, you know, essentially the investigation they've been charged with, which is their constitutional duty to see what lawmaking they should make that helps prevent us -- protect us from violence in the future. >> and the house minority leader kevin mccarthy was invited to voluntarily cooperate with the committee, and he said i'm not going to cooperate. so, do you think that the house minority leader should be subpoenaed by the committee? is the -- should the committee put aside whatever political considerations there might be in not doing it, to do it? >> well, look, let me say it to you this way. i certainly think they have the power. i think kevin mccarthy's public statement, the statements we know about that are a matter of public record, demonstrate that he is a fact witness, he's not being asked because he's a member of congress, he's being asked because he had a direct conversation with the president on january 6th while the violence was happening that helps establish the president's state of mind, what he may or may not have known and certainly what he was saying that might help us understand why he waited over two hours to say anything about the violence the president was watching, the former president, i should say, was watching on television at the time. that is factually relevant. but i'll also say this. we already have the facts. we may not have it in mccarthy's own words about what he thought and how he interpreted it, but the public record made a lot of public statements pretty clear. >> oh, his public statements are very, very clear. maya wiley, thank you, as always, for coming to "the sunday show." coming up, why one professor and author is issuing a warning to the united states about another civil war, yet another sign of our fragile democracy. my interview with barbara f. walter is next. is next stages it's more treatable. i'm cologuard. i'm noninvasive... and i detect altered dna in your stool to find 92% of colon cancers... even in early stages. early stages. yep. it's for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. we're in. subway® has so much new it didn't fit in our last ad. like the new artisan italian and hearty multigrain bread. it's the eat fresh refresh™ at subway®. it's so much new there's no time for serena! wait, what?! sorry, we don't even have time to say they were created by world class bakers! oh, guess we did! seriously?! my bad. if you're washing with the bargain brand, even when your clothes look clean, seriously?! there's extra dirt you can't see. watch this. that was in these clothes... ugh. but the clothes washed in tide- so much cleaner. if it's got to be clean it's got to be tide hygienic clean. 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[upbeat acoustic music throughout] we must decide what kind of nation are we going to be. are we going to be a nation that accepts political violence as a norm? that is the question we face as a nation, according to a new poll more than half the country thinks our democracy is in danger of collapsing and that another january 6-style attack is likely. a new book warns we are closer to a civil war than any of us would like to believe. joining me now professor and author of "how civil wars start and how to stop them." wow. it is great to meet you. i first read your book in my colleague's column. compelling and a very good read. i want to put one of the excerpts that stuck out to me and have you talk about it. and i think it's the one where -- well, let's talk about -- let's go to "democracy in decline" where you write, no one wants to believe that their beloved democracy is in decline or headed toward war. the decay is often so incremental that people often fail to notice or understand it, even as they are experiencing it. and you write throughout the book that the united states is not a democracy anymore, it's an anocracy. what is that? >> that is just a fancy term for partial democracy. it's a government that's neither fully democratic nor fully autocratic. it's something in between. and the term comes from a data set that the u.s. government uses. in 2017 i was asked by the government to join a task force that they run called the political instability task force. and the job of the task force is to hey help the government predict where political instability is likely to break out. the task force put together a model that included lots of different variables, things that we thought would matter in the outbreak of civil war, poverty, inequality, how ethically diverse a country was. and it turns out that only two factors came out highly predictive. the first was this anocracy variable. it was whether countries were in democratic decline or were rapidly changing in some way. and, of course, that's what's happened here in the united states. the u.s.' democracy was downgraded in 2016 when international observers deemed our election free but not entirely fair. it was downgraded again in 2019 when the white house, the executive branch, refused to comply with requests from the legislature, the branch that checks the executive branch, refused to comply with subpoenas and hand over paper. and then by the end of the trump presidency, the u.s. was downgraded to an anocracy for the first time since 1800. >> right. and you say that the united states is no longer the world's oldest continuous democracy. that honor goes to switzerland, followed by new zealand and canada. we are running out of time, and you and i are going to be talking on "washington post live" later on. but i want to read something else that you wrote. people don't realize how vulnerable western democracies are to violent conflict. they have grown accustomed to their longevity, their resilience and their stability in the face of crisis. the internet has revealed just how fragile a government by and for the people can be. and this jumped out at me, especially now that the january 6th select committee has subpoenaed the social media tech companies. in the minute that we have left, talk about the role the internet and social media has played in weakening democracies. >> we are in a global decline of democracy. so it's not just the u.s.'s democracy that's declining, it's in every region of the world. and this is really shocking because basically for almost the entire 20th century, every year more and more democracies emerged around the world. that peaked in 2010. since 2010 the number of democracies around the world has been declining. and it doesn't show any sign of reversing itself. and, of course, when you think about, you know, what happened during this time, they were declining, as the internet penetrated into different regions and into different countries, you began to see all of these signs of societal division increasing, hate crimes increasing, strongmen being elected who are slowly taking away the guardrails of democracy in their country. and the surprising thing is that people didn't realize this was happening. if you talk to people in hungary today, they are happier with their democracy today than they were ten years ago, and they were in precipitous decline. and, in fact, they're no longer a democracy today. but the people still think it is. >> right. professor, like i said, you and i are going to talk more about this on "washington post live" later this month. thank you so much for coming to "the sunday show." coming up, my thoughts on why the world should be alarmed over the current state of our country and the future of american democracy. stay with us. stay with us ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ i earn 3% cash back at drugstores th chase freedom unlimited. so i got cards for birthdays, holidays, graduations, i'm covered for everything. which reminds me, thank you for driving me to the drugstore. earn big time with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? 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(excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. in his "new york times" column this week headline "let's not invent a civil war," ross criticizes writers like barbara f. walter and others concerned about persistent dangers to american democracy. at the end of the piece, he writes, it's worth asking whether the people who see potential insurrection lurking everywhere are seeing a danger rising entirely on its own or in their alarm are helping to invent it. if there's one i and millions of others have grown tired of is being told our rooted in reality fear for our fragile democracy is alarmist. we were told we were being alarmist when we warned folks to take a certain queens-born builders red-hot racist rhetoric seriously, that he was a threat to american values and basic decency. and he proved our fears warranted time and time again. after trump was impeached the first time, senator collins said he learned his lesson. >> the president has been impeached. that's a pretty big lesson. i believe that he will be much more cautious in the future. >> nope. trump undermined confidence in our elections with the big lie before a vote was even cast. he lost the election fair and square. and then he said this. >> we're going to walk down pennsylvania avenue, and we're going to the capitol. we're going give our republicans -- we're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. so, let's walk down pennsylvania avenue. >> this happened. s happened since last january, at least 19 states have instituted 34 voter restrictive laws. at least 163 republican adherents to the big lie are now running for statewide offices that would put them in position to subvert future elections. meanwhile, in the united states senate, forget about manchin and sinema for a moment. not one republican will allow the freedom to vote act or the john lewis voting rights advancement act to even be debated. the january 6th insurrection was an affront to democracy. to think another insurrection couldn't happen again or that something worse could never happen, given everything we have seen and continued to learn is an exercise in willful ignorance. 11 coup plotters have been indicted on seditious conspiracy charges. and members of congress are refusing to cooperate with the january 6th select committee, probing what happened and how to prevent it from happening again. trump is making noises of running again. but even if he doesn't, his putrid brand of politics has so nested the republican party that the ruthless lawlessness of trumpism reigns over the gop. this is why i and millions are alarmed about the state of our democracy. if you're not alarmed, you might be part of the problem. coming up, i sat down with former virginia governor ralph northam to discuss the future of his state as governor glenn youngkin takes office. my interview with governor northam is next. keep it right here. keep it right here andrea: you see things as a parent-- what your expectations are for your kid growing up, the milestones going to school, graduating and getting married, having kids. and cancer was never one of those milestones in my head. st. jude has given us hope, love, a home away from home. and it feels like home. you're more than just a patient or just another family here at st. jude. newly minted virginia governor glenn youngkin started his first day in office saturday by issuing 11 executive actions, including scrapping school mask mandates, rescinding state employee vaccine mandates, and ending the teaching of critical race theory, which isn't even being taught in virginia public schools. meanwhile, out going governor ralph northam spent his last day in office issuing pardons and sending the state's electric chair to a museum. i sat down with governor northam earlier this week to discuss the future of the commonwealth. governor northam, welcome to "the sunday show." >> jonathan, thanks so much for having me. >> well, thanks, again, for being here. so you leave office on january 15th. you're leaving office with, last i saw, the unemployment rate is below the national average, and the budget had a surplus. so why do you think virginia voters opted to go with someone who's your complete political opposite to run the state? >> you know, jonathan, i think what we've proven over the last four years is that we can have a very progressive commonwealth, a state that embraces diversity, a state that takes care of its workers, a state that's welcoming and inclusive, and, at the same time, have a robust economy. as you said, our surplus is $2.6 billion for the last three years, virginia has been named the number one state in the country in which to do business in. and i really don't think we talked about what we've done as democrats enough over the last four years. the election was nationalized, it was a lot of emphasis on the previous president. and i think we should've done a better job talking about our accomplishments. >> i hear what you're saying on that, governor. but, to your point of saying that under your governorship you embraced diversity, and yet a lot of the coverage of that campaign was about local school board meetings and centered around, quote, unquote, critical race theory and whether it was being taught in virginia schools. and that's what governor-elect youngkin ran on and possibly won on. so what does that say about the commonwealth? >> well, a couple things. one, a critical race theory is nothing more than a dog whistle. we don't teach critical race theory. it's not a part of our curriculum in k-12 schools. what it also says, and perhaps more importantly, is that anger and fear are very strong emotions, and i think their campaign was a lot based on that, was out there provoking fear and anger in people, and they responded to it. and the rest is history. but that's not a good direction for virginia to go in. it's not a good direction for this country to go in. and i think we have to start with the facts. and we may be able to disagree, but let's at least deal with facts and then go from there. but critical race theory is a dog whistle, and it's not being taught in our schools. >> so, governor, as i listened to you in that answer, and i listened to your language, dog whistle, diversity is our strength. the language you're using is language that i think a lot of people wouldn't expect you to be using given what you uf mistically call the year book incident. and that is an incident where there is a photo on your 1984 medical school year book page of someone in blackface and someone in a klu klux klan uniform. and, as you know, i am one of the many people who called on you, demanded that you resign, and you didn't. and i recently wrote a piece saying why i forgive you. can you talk about what you learned from that experience that happened sort of halfway through your term? >> well, that was a very, very difficult time for virginia, and there was a lot of hurt because of that. and for that i regret putting virginia through that. ialso, jonathan, saw it as an opportunity for me to listen to people. i committed myself and our cabinet secretaries to really deal with the inequities and to listen and to learn and as i've said, the more i know, the more i can do. and we've really been able to turn a lot of what we learned into action. now, again, a lot of different areas. at the end of the day, it was a hurtful time. i am glad virginians stuck with me. i can tell you i am a better person. i certainly understand racial issues much better than i did prior to that episode and i really think virginia, more importantly, is a better commonwealth, a commonwealth that is more open, more inclusive and really welcoming to people. and as i like to remind people, our society is becoming more diverse every day and that's a good thing. and it will continue to go in that direction. so virginia needs to embrace that diversity if we're going to be able to move forward. so we need to be able to treat people right. that's the right thing to do, and it's also good for business. and i think it's a reason we have seen we can treat people right. we can be a progressive commonwealth and at the same time we can have a robust economy. >> governor, i'm going to throw some words back at you, and this is a mantra that you have been saying over the last three years. actually, as you told us on the editorial board at the washington post, this is what you used to teach medical students and residents, the eyes can't see what the brain doesn't know. how did you go about learning about race, race in america, our nation's fraught racial history, how did you go about learning that and then using that language to actually make positive change in the commonwealth? >> yes. the first thing i would say, i listened. i traveled around the commonwealth. i am just so appreciative that people were willing to sit and have what were some very difficult discussions. and so i really learned a lot, and from -- whether it be from access to education, access to business opportunities, access to health care, i learned a will the lot. i read a lot, jonathan. one of the documentaries i read, the 13th, that put things in perspective for me. if anybody is interested and wants to learn more about systemic racism and especially black oppression, i would encourage them to watch that because a lot of people that look like me, jonathan, they think that the oppression ended when slavery ended, but it didn't. we then had mass resistance, mass incarceration, jim crow, the police brutality in minneapolis. black oppression exists today. it is alive and well here as we speak in 2022, just in a different form. and it is very important, i believe, for people like me that are comfortable to talk about that. the burden has always been on people of color to talk about that history and i think we are all in this together and i think people that look like me need to do a better job of that. >> amen to that, governor northam. you didn't brag on yourself so i'm going to brag on you, talking to you. you ended the death penalty in virginia. you raised the threshold from $500 to $1,000 for felony larceny, you abolished the suspension of driver's license over unpaid court fees and fines and you legalized recreational marijuana use. all of those things you did in your one term as governor and all of those things while beneficial to all of the citizens in the commonwealth of virginia, they all have a disproportionate impact on virginians. for that, governor ralph northam, i say thank you and thank you for coming to "the sunday show. >> thank you so much. in the next hour of our special edition of our "sunday show" we take a look at grassroots voting rights activism and we remember dr. martin luther king ahead in the holiday. what would he say about the state of our country and democracy now? 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[a vulture squawks.] there he is. only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty♪ how not to be a hero: because that's the last thing they need you to be. you don't have to save the day. you just have to navigate the world so that a foster child isn't doing it solo. you just have to stand up for a kid who isn't fluent in bureaucracy, or maybe not in their own emotions. so show up, however you can, for the foster kids who need it most— at helpfosterchildren.com >> this edition of the sunday show, our fragile democracy, and the filibuster is there. listen to what dr. king himself has. >> i think we have that. >> the majority of the people there. in fact, they represent us. >> the protests. they had a few choice words for sinister -- >> we stand in the way and have a goal to pass these laws. a sufficient argument. >> the laws has been there. joining me, three people at the forefront. the black woman's roundtable, about her daughter listening to twha she says. >> you know, our door, in 2013, the corner stone of my grandfather's legacy. voting rights. >> less voting rights and i can't imagine. >> incredible history lesson. >> not have your mind in the sand. >> you should know. this is another story and another example. that highlights that. >> we have the voting rights today. >> absolutely. mrs. barrett? >> well, this is my second time here. the birth right, if you're born in the united states of america, no one should have the right to take it, and the fact that we are 40, 50 years later fighting the same battles that i was in treatment is incomprehensible to me, but it's also very clear. it's not an issue of a fragile democracy, it is an issue of the will and whoever is at charge. when people fuss and fight and talk about voting, what they really are talking about is freedom. because the inability to vote for and put people in office who can sustain the society and adjust an equal way, you lose that ability you lose the freedoms. then the senate and congress doesn't want to touch it because the fighting and voting in the states. we know where that ended. that ended with us counting bottles in the jar and citing the constitution. i submit that we're fighting the fundamental fight of freedom. >> you know what, that is a great thing to point out. we are talking about -- i think that is the reason why, at the start of this show last hour i sort of reminded people that we haven't been a democracy, melanie, all that long. we might think 1776 is when american democracy started but if you're looking at the documents and how what's promised in the documents is being applied, we became a true democracy in 1965. 57 years ago, and yet we just heard from mrs. king reminding us, her own daughter, dr. king's granddaughters, has less voting rights or to use mrs. berry's words, less freedom than her grandfather did. >> yes. and i just ditto what my mentor just said and my sister and, jonathan, first of all, i want to thank you for keeping the drum beat going so the people can understand what's going on. dr. king fought for this, and i'm paraphrasing. he talked about the vote. it was a key tool to eradicating injustice in this country. i think about my great nephew, you may or may not have seen him walking with me and always with me, jeremiah, who's 10 years old. so when i listen to what you played from andre a king, i think it just brings home what are we going to -- what are we doing for the future of this country? what are we doing for our children, my nieces and my nephews and all of them as their great aunty? am i doing all i can and shining a light on what's going on in this country. and democracy is safe. we are in this existential threat. are we going to have a civil war? in some ways we are in a civil war in this country right now and where this thing is going ends up standing and we don't get voting rights in the past, we won't recognize this democracy a year from now. >> melanie, real quickly since i have you right now, you, correct me if i'm wrong, were in a meeting last week with senator sinema with some other -- with some other black leaders. is there anything you can tell us about that meeting? how did that meeting go? >> thank you, jonathan. i was in a couple of virtual meetings with senator sinema was part of that as well as manchin but last week, yes. we had a conversation with senator sinema. i did not leave that meeting feeling very hopeful. i will not say i had a crystal ball to say we would see her saying what she said in that speech, which was very disrespectful to the president of the united states who's the leader of the party but to the american people because it was very disingenuous. we have to continue to shine the light on yes. yes, cinema and manchin, but also what's happening with those republicans who are sitting on the sidelines. we will not sit idly by. we will win. >> so then, ensai, so what's next? what do we do now after what is expected to happen on tuesday happens, meaning freedom to vote act and the john lewis voting rights advancement act don't hit the 60 vote threshold, that the vote to change the senate rules to allow for those two bills to be voted on and pass with a simple majority, that fails as well. what happens then on the ground? >> i think for activists and organizers, we'll continue doing what it is that we have been doing. i want to be very clear that in the middle of the pandemic in 2020 our organization alone knocked on 2 million doors while the biden and harris campaign knocked on zero. that is not an indictment, that is an accurate assessment on the various roles we play in our fight towards our march towards our advancement towards freedom. it's time to call the question. we're in the middle of a bloodless coup attempt and we need to be honest. we will continue to push for our leaders to continue to try to make progress on this effort. ain't no build back better. no immigration reform. there's none of the priorities that we care deeply about on the biden/harris agenda that will ever see the light of day if we are not able to secure the right to vote. i'm serious about that. i know that. the republicans know that. it's time for our leaders to acknowledge that. >> i'm going to give you the final 30 seconds here. you've been to this rodeo before as you said. what do you think should happen next? >> well, i think we just need to face the facts that we are in a 2022 or century civil war. i mean, we're in t. my heart breaks because i've seen segregation, i've seen repression, i've seen dogs and cattle cross and if we don't get the vote and get it passed correctly, we're harkening back to those things. it is a dire warning that once the rights of the vote go back to the states because let's look at it as states rights, then they're in control of our ultimate freedom. i think we should approach this. i know we have to do the political legislative kind of approach, but we also have to get back into the streets. we have to take it back where it is and alert people. people want to join them with the reproductive rallies. i say, reproductive rallies are taking place now because of the way you voted and the options that you had and you chose those options and now here we are, this is a result of it. this is just the beginning of the end of a lot of things that we've taken for granted for four years because everything we have right now is all gone. >> we're going to have to leave it there. thank you all very much for coming to "the sunday show." tomorrow the nation will remember the life's work of martin luther king jr., and i have the privilege of sitting down with someone who knew him very well. my interview with dr. king's former speech writer, adviser and friend is next. h writer, ad and friend is next ♪are you ready♪ i'm always up for what's next, even with higher stroke risk due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin i'll go after that. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk better than warfarin and has less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis has both. don't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis can cause serious and in rare cases fatal bleeding. don't take eliquis if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. while taking, you may bruise more easily or take longer for bleeding to stop. get help right away for unexpected bleeding, or unusual bruising. it may increase your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor about eliquis. people everywhere living with type 2 diabetes are waking up the number one cardiologist-prescribed to what's possible... with rybelsus®. the majority of people taking rybelsus® lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than 7. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking rybelsus® with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. wake up to the possibility of lower a1c with rybelsus®. you may pay as little as $10 for up to a 3-month prescription. ask your healthcare provider about rybelsus® today. what does a foster kid need from you? to be brave. to show up. for staying connected. the questions they weren't able to ask. show up for the first day of school, the last day at their current address. for the mornings when everything's wrong. for the manicure that makes everything right, for right now. show up, however you can, for the foster kids who need it most— at helpfosterchildren.com on saturday dr. martin luther king jr. would have turned 93 years old and his family is still marching for voting rights legislation nearly six decades after the bipartisan passage of the civil rights act of 1964 and the voting rights act of 1965. recently i had the opportunity to sit down with dr. clarence jones who just turned 91. he was the former speech writer, adviser, lawyer and friend to dr. king. take a listen to some of our conversation. >> you wrote a book with the title "what would martin say?" what would martin luther king say about what's going on in the united states today when it comes to race relations, voting rights, what's happened to the republican party? >> he would not understand why the country scoreboard, everybody upset about references to slavery. the other thing he would say, he would say black lives matter. black lives have always mattered. always mattered. the challenge has been for us to get the majority of society to recognize and to respect that. he also coming down on controversial issues, what are these people talking about, they don't want the police? you cannot run your society on lawlessness. cannot do it. okay? we just got to understand not all police people are bad people. i think it's fair to say. i saw what happened in birmingham and selma, and nobody, nobody is going to convince me that america is incapable. i don't believe that white people are incapable of rising above an historical upbringing of racism. i don't believe that. >> what do you say to republicans who if they hear what you just said and would say, how dare you? how dare you say that white americans are imbued with racism? how dare you say that sort of thing because that's the conversation that's happening now? >> they're living there it. what do you mean how dare i -- i live in a world of facts, you know? not alternative facts, facts. i mean, i didn't put a clause in the constitution called the 3/5 clause. i didn't make that up in the supreme court. i didn't make up pressie v. verg son. these things actually happened. the fact that -- the fact that there was a period of time in which the country was dominated by the mentality of people who owned slaves, that is not -- that is not -- that is not -- that is not my opinion. >> the nation has been through a lot of trials, and by trials i mean literal trials, the derek chauvin trial for the murder of george floyd, the kyle rittenhouse trial and then you have the three murderers of ahmaud arbery in georgia. to your mind, what do those events say about where we are as a country? are we -- are we pulling apart? >> yes. on the issue of race, we are pulling apart. and there's several contributing factors to that. i think that some of the civil rights leaders got themselves in the cross hair, the wrong direction under question of the police. you can say that black lives matter and you can call out where it should be called out racist police conduct, but i get the impression that a large part of the white community believes that black people are against the police. they don't want police. i get that now, okay? and as a matter of fact, regrettably my anger is civil rights leaders seem to be caught in a quandary. they seem to have lost their balance. why do i say that? because how can you be a major civil rights leader in this country and permit the killing fields that takes place in african-american communities? and they're not white people coming in and killing black people, they're black people. this is not to excuse the obvious racist killing of black people by other white people, but what's going on in washington, what's going on in chicago and washington, d.c., and atlanta is a travesty. >> so, dr. jones, now what you just said is something that i hear as pushback from republicans who say why are you talking about -- you're spending a whole lot of time talking about law enforcement killing african-americans. why aren't you talking about chicago? >> but we have to be not so self-conscious that. doesn't excuse the republican based, legislative based racist acts to not protect black people. we going to leave it to the kevin mccarthys and so forth? are we going to leave our children's fate to other people? i don't want to hear that. any black person says they love their black community and sits on their hands and sees what's going on in the blacks community are blacks killing other blacks. okay? now i don't care if somebody says i saw clarence jones on television, okay. i think this brother has lost his mind. i'm just speaking truth to power. i'm not excusing it. i'm not excusing the racist actions of other people in our black community, but you can't be a male, you can't be a father, you can't be a parent and see your children in black communities being shot down in a killing field. i am absolutely convinced that what i just said to you earlier, that's exactly what he would say. listen to me, i am absolutely convinced that he would say to the fathers and mothers and the black leaders of the black community, we have to stop the black killing fields, okay? we know we have racist police, but they're not the fathers or uncles of our children. huh? the police are not going to take care of our children. huh? we have to take care of our children. that's what he would say. coming up, my all-star panel is here and ready to sound off to the week's biggest stories next. week's biggest stories next make the morning chaos, organized chaos. and make sure everything's in it's place. so nothing is out of place. however you make it, make your home a place like no other. nothing like a weekend in the woods. it's a good choice all around, like screening for colon cancer... when caught in early stages it's more treatable. i'm cologuard. i'm noninvasive... and i detect altered dna in your stool to find 92% of colon cancers... even in early stages. early stages. yep. it's for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. we're in. >> vo: my car is my after-work decompression zone. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. ♪ music ♪ >> vo: so when my windshield broke... i found the experts at safelite autoglass. they have exclusive technology and service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ (vo) america's most reliable network is going ultra! with verizon 5g ultra wideband now in many more cities so more businesses can do more. mike's bike shop! downloading up to 10 times faster. whoa! is that already... 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it's just sort of a typical example of why republicans have failed since 1964 to appeal to more than about 10% of the african-american vote. >> you know, congresswoman edwards, i have to say that i am old enough to remember republicans who could talk about dr. king with some facility, with some knowledge who understood what he was talking about. they might disagree with the policy solutions, but they understood and knew the nuances of what he was talking about. what on earth was glenn youngkin talking about? >> well, glenn youngkin was elected on a fraud, the fraud of the teaching of critical race theory in virginia schools. he's proving now that he will govern as a fraud, and that quote that he used, if he really looks at dr. king's words, those were aspirational. dr. king at that moment was acknowleding that that is not where we are, that he hoped for a future in which we would be judged by the content of our character not the color of our skin. so how convenient that governor youngkin actually strips that meaning from the quote to justify what he is doing regarding virginia public schools. >> nicolas, i'm not going to make you talk about governor youngkin, especially since you are the congressional reporter. so i want to have you just give us the lay of the land about something that senator lindsey graham said on fox news on wednesday. just have a listen. >> election's about the future. if you want to be a republican leader in the house or the senate, you have to have a working relationship with president donald trump. he's the most consequential republican since ronald regan. it's his nomination if he wants it and i think he will get re-elected in 2024. here's the question. can senator mcconnell effectively work with the leader of the party donald trump? i'm not going to work with anybody that can't have a working relationship with president trump. >> so, nicolas, what am i -- what are we to make of that last part that senator graham said? can senator mcconnell work with the leader of the party? i'm not going to work with anybody that can't have a working relationship with donald trump? what is senator graham doing here? how -- how did that go over? >> well, it's worth remembering that senator graham is kind of been sounding this tone for some time. he is one of the closest allies of the former president and that he has talked about just the sheer influence that trump has over the republican party right now. and it's something that republicans really ignore at their peril right now. look, just in this past week congressman john kako, one of the ten who voted to impeach the former president said he would be retiring from office after this term. we're seeing the continued refashioning of the party even after trump is out of office. this is an issue that mcconnell, the republican leaders, are contending with. trump called him old crow. mcconnell made a joke about bourbon but this will be a thorn in mcconnell's side like it or not. >> one more question on this, nicolas. if senator graham is saying that, should senator mcconnell, leader mcconnell, actually be worried that, let's say, republicans do take the majority in the senate? or even if they don't, that if mcconnell isn't sufficiently loyal or subservient to donald trump, that his hold on the leadership position could really be in jeopardy. >> that certainly could be a problem, but we should look at some of the primaries going on right now for republican senators. you know, a lot of these folks, even as they've tried to court trump's endorsement, really tried to back trump candidates in these races haven't necessarily ruled out supporting mcconnell. congressman bill brooks has not necessarily ruled out supporting mcconnell even as he's supposed to be one of the trumpier candidates in that race. we have a split between people who want trump's influence but aren't willing to buck the leader of senate republicans and all of the fundraising prowess that he has. >> all right. you know what, y'all, don't go anywhere. my panelists are sticking around and will react to the other sunday shows right after the break. t to the other sunday shows right after the break. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. my mental health was much better. my mind was in a good place. but my body was telling a different story. i felt all people saw were my uncontrolled movements. some mental health meds can cause tardive dyskinesia, or td, and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. ingrezza is a prescription medicine to treat adults with td movements in the face and body. it's the only treatment for td that's one pill, once-daily, with or without food. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most mental health meds. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to any of its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including sleepiness. don't drive, operate heavy machinery, or do other dangerous activities until you know how ingrezza affects you. other serious side effects include potential heart rhythm problems and abnormal movements. it's nice people focus more on me. ask your doctor about ingrezza, #1 prescribed for td. learn how you could pay as little as zero dollars at ingrezza.com. tide pods ultra oxi one ups the cleaning power of liquid. as little as zero dollars can it one up whatever they're doing? for sure. seriously? one up the power of liquid, one up the toughest stains. any further questions? uh uh! one up the power of liquid with tide pods ultra oxi. he's been impeached twice and out of office for more than a year, but just like a broken record, donald trump is at it again complaining that the election was stolen from him and it wasn't. and more importantly, explaining what he wants the party to do about it. here's his message to republican voters at a pennsylvania senate debate this week. >> western pennsylvania, as you know, we did very well there. we did very well in the state. we won the state. it's something that i contested. i'll continue to contest it. we were up by a massive amount at 10:00 in the evening and then all of a sudden things closed and it reopened and, viola, look what happened. so we have to be a lot sharper the next time when it comes to counting the vote. famous saying, sometimes the vote counter is more important than the candidate and we can't let that ever, ever happen again. have to get tougher and smarter. >> my panel is back with me. stewart, that last bit in that harangue, whatever that was from donald trump, is the most chilling thing that folks are talking about now. the idea that republican governors and state legislatures in some places are setting up the asperatus so that the vote counters get to decide who wins the election. >> yeah, you know, there's some debate whether or not stalin really actually said it's not who votes that matters, it's who counts, but there can't be any question that donald trump has said that. i don't know, we just have to listen to these people. i mean, i think there is an autocratic movement in america. i don't know how you deny that. and to a certain degree, they're advantaged by these sort of buffoonish characters that are out there in front. marjorie taylor greenes, but the root of this is some very serious people. propagandas, financiers and legal experts trying to build a framework to justify ending democracy as we know it in america. all the pieces of an autocratic movement in america are in place and i think the next two elections are going to be the most consequential since 1860. >> donna, i want to switch gears and have you listen to sound from senator bill cassidy explaining why he won't vote to reauthorize the voting rights act. >> when the senate reauthorized that law just a decade ago, it passed 98-0. why don't republicans, including yourself, support restoring those -- the voting rights act now? >> so the supreme court decided, the supreme court decided that the conditions in 1965 are different than they are now. imagine that. we've had an african-american elected president of the united states, an african-american elected to the vice presidency, an african-american elected to the senate in south carolina. now if anyone can't see circumstances have changed, they're just not believing their lying eyes. >> so, congresswoman edwards, just react. >> i don't know. my lying eyes tell me just because you have one president and one vice president and a senator, a couple of senators doesn't mean that democracy is working. and, you know, this continues to go down the line of republicans remaking history and remaking the history of the voting rights act. as you said, it passed 98-0 i guess the last time it was reauthorized. the president -- president biden articulated last week in atlanta that, in fact, 16 senators who are in the senate today actually voted for that reauthorization. you know, this -- it is so unfortunate because some of the things that are happening around the states in these state legislatures actually go directly at the heart of the voting rights act and the reality is the supreme court is a court. it's not the legislature. it's the legislature, congress's job, to pass laws and the supreme court said in its holding in holder case that in fact all that congress has to do is come back and update the voting rights act, which is why the john lewis voting rights enhancement act -- advancement act is designed to do that, to correct errors that the court identified so that all of us would have the unfettered right to our vote. >> nicolas, let me have you listen to house majority whip jim clyburn, what he had to say related to senator sinema but on the filibuster. i'll talk to you about it on the other side. >> no. she is not right about that. we just got around the filibuster to raise the debt limit. why? because we don't want to put the full faith and credit of the united states at risk. no one is asking her to eliminate the filibuster. the filibuster is there for all of these that make politicians, but when it comes to the constitution of the united states of america, no one person sitting down in a spa ought to be able to pick up a telephone and say you are going to put a hold on my ability to vote. >> i just love that. no person sitting downtown in a spa. i just love that. but, nicolas, i'm not asking you to comment on that. i am asking you to comment on where are things in terms of the conversations about reforming the filibuster, at least when it comes to voting rights? there's been talk about the talking filibuster, there's been talk about changing vote counts so that it's you have to vote to -- some 45 vote threshold that they've been talking about. where are things on those points? >> well, jonathan, it looks like democrats are still kind of at square one with trying to reform the filibuster. remember last week, as the president came to the hill to talk to senate democrats about potential rules changes and voting rights, remember senator sinema went to the senate floor to reiterate her position that she wasn't going to make major changes. now senator manchin released a statement as well, also reiterating where he was there. so democrats really want to try to fix this here and to try to change this to allow them to get voting rights and other major pieces of legislation through but, you know, this is something that is a simple majority threshold to make a rules change. you only have 50 senate democrats and so when two them put their foot down and say no, you know, it doesn't seem like they're going to be budged. even after manchin and sinema met at the white house. democrats have said it's really behind here but it's unclear what the pathway forward is. >> i have to believe at this point that manchin and sinema went to the white house just so they could replenish their supply of presidential m&ms. my panel is back with us after this break. stay with us. stay with us i'm gonna earn 3% on dining including takeout with chase freedom unlimited. that's a lot of cash back. are you gonna stop me? uh-oh... i'm almost there... too late! boom! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. the panel is back with me. we have to talk about the january 6th select committee. listen to what congressman jim jordan had to say on fox. >> anyone with common sense would be reluctant to go talk to this committee. they've already proven they thel alter evidence and lie to the american people about it so you have to question you know, just what they're up to when they prove they will do that and then second, i think everyone in the country sees this is a political operation, this is designed to get after president trump because they don't want him to run again because president trump i think is going to run again and i think he's going to win and that's what this is designed to do. >> stuart, it sounds like jim jordan is using donald as a human shield there. but he's scared, isn't he? he should be scared. >> i hope he's scared. you know, i think just take a moment here, that's probably the next speaker of the house, if republicans win the house. kevin mccarthy is not going to be reelected. this thing is not going to get anything but more extreme. we liked to say the republican party was the law and order party. maybe that wasn't as true as we thought it was. the idea that you wouldn't investigate an attack on american democracy, the only people that would be for that are the people who are worried they're going to get caught. this is like asking tony soprano would you like an investigation into your gang. he'll probably say no. this is a giant criminal conspiracy that we learn more about every day. >> stuart, do you think -- he's already said he's not cooperating. do you think the select committee should subpoena him? >> oh, good lord, yes, they ought to subpoena all of these people and they ought to put them in jail if they don't respond to the subpoenas, absolutely. what is more important than getting to the heart of a conspiracy to end the american experiment? we're so close to this, we don't imagine how history is going to look at this. this is the world's oldest functioning democracy and there is a party that attempted to stop that because they lost an election. and the essential, unalterable element that must be in a democracy is someone has to be willing to lose. and republicans have decided they're not willing to lose. >> donna, i was going to come to you but i'll leapfrog you and go over to nicholas because of something that stuart said. this notion, which has been said on my show many times and is still freaks me out every time i hear it, the idea of a speaker jim jordan. you cover congress, nicholas. how likely is that? does he have the support within the conference to actually take the leadership from kevin mccarthy? >> right now, all signs point to leader mccarthy not only trying to be the republican leader in the next conference but potentially -- i mean, look at some of the actionsing he has taken in the past year to try to keep the conference happy. he went from, right after january 6th, saying the president had some responsibility, to pivoting almost a complete 180 there. he's trying to balance all different parts of the caucus, from yes, be more outspoken, like marjorie taylor greene, and to keep moderate ones happy as well, protecting them from attacks from the more conservative ones. it's a delicate balancing act mccarthy is trying to play and so far it looks like it's paid off for him. he's raised tons of money for republicans, they're confident heading into next year. although jim jordan has some higher aspirations, kevin mccarthy does appear to have support. so, no. >> that's interesting, because he tried to run for leader once before, speaker once before, and tripped himself up. he just strikes me as a needy people pleaser who will do all these things, sell his soul and still not get the gavel. donna edwards, as the only former member of congress on this panel, i would love to get your final thoughts in the minute that we've got left, on anything that we were just talking about. >> i do want to follow up on the jim jordan piece on january 6th because i do think the committee should subpoena him. jim jordan already admitted on television that he spoke with donald trump in, around, on, unclear, on january 6th. and the committee has to get to the bottom of that. and they need to subpoena any members or another person who can contribute to the narrative about what happened on january 6th. and i'm looking forward, and i know the american people are, to the hearings that are going to come forward in the coming weeks, because i think it will shed light, important light on all of the goings-on around january 6th. >> and he should go to jail if he defies a subpoena? >> any of us would go to jail if we defied a subpoena, wouldn't we? >> oh, donna, they would never put me in jail. thank you all very much for coming back to "the sunday show." i want to say goodbye to a very important member of our team, line producer -- i'm messing up everybody's names today. she keeps things running and cheers us up with pictures of her adorable daughter. natalie, we'll miss you and wish you all the best in your new position. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. over two hundred and twenty five million dollars to charity. you can get a car from any company, but none will makeifference like subaru. 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