Transcripts For MSNBC The Sunday Show With Jonathan Capehart

committee is closing in on donald trump's inner circle. and getting to the key question, did he break the law? and with the focus shifting to voting rights, the family of dr. martin luther king turns up the heat ahead of the king holiday. martin luther king iii joins me with details. i'm jonathan capehart. this is "the sunday show." this sunday, we're following breaking news that president biden's build back better agenda is dead in the water. after west virginia senator joe manchin said this just moments ago on fox news. >> we have the debt that we're carrying at $29 trillion, you have also the geopolitical unrest we have, we have the covid variant, and that is wreaking havoc again. people are concerned. i've been with my family. i know everyone is concerned. when you have these things coming at you the way they are right now, i always said this, brett, if i can can't go home and explain it to the people of west virginia, i can't vote for it. and i can not vote to continue with this piece of legislation. i just can't. >> it is a major blow for democrats, nbc reports that senator manchin notified the white house and democratic leadership of his decision this morning, before announcing it on fox news. we're going to -- trust me, there was strong and serious reaction and swift reaction from democrats across the spectrum. let's start with congresswoman ilhan omar of minnesota. >> we all knew that senator manchin could be trusted. you know, the excuses that he just made i think are complete [ bleep ]. it is really disheartening to hear him say that he has been trying to get there for the people of west virginia because that's a complete lie. the people of west virginia would greatly benefit. >> i hope that we will bring a strong bill to the floor of the senate as as soon as we can and let mr. manchin explain to the people of west virginia why he doesn't have the guts to stand up to powerful special interests. >> so you want a vote on it no matter what, even if -- >> absolutely. absolutely. the american people have got to understand what is at stake. we have been dealing with mr. manchin for month after month after month. but if he doesn't have the courage to do the right thing for the working families of west virginia and america, let him vote no in front of the whole world. >> and that was independent senator from vermont bernie sanders there, reacting to the news from senator joe manchin. let's go to politico congressional reporter nicholas wu for the latest on this. nicholas, thank you for coming to "the sunday show." how much of a -- how big a deal, explain to viewers how big a deal this news is from manchin. >> it is a huge blow, jonathan, to the democrats' agenda. for months and months they have been going back and forth over the scale, and the scope, and even the timing of this legislation. and for manchin to come out now and say he doesn't want to move forward with it, this is all part of the breakdown in trust that we're seeing between progressives and moderates. we have this handshake deal, a little while ago between progressives and moderates in the democratic party to let the infrastructure bill go and move forward and with that, and agree to this outline on the build back better plan. progressives see it, this is a breakdown of that agreement, in total lapse of what they had agreed to there. so this is something that will clearly have a large ramifications within the party. >> and, nicholas, i have to ask you this. in listening to what senator manchin said there on fox news, he didn't say anything that was new or different than he's been saying for months now. during the messy negotiations over build back better. so why is this -- why is this catching people seemingly off guard? >> well, the interesting thing here is for manchin to explicitly say he doesn't want to move forward with legislation, he's been talking about inflation, he's been talking about covid and the geopolitical -- for months now. that's for sure. this is him explicitly drawing a line in the sand and this was progressive fears all along, they lose leverage and manchin or another moderate in the senate could simply veto everything they worked on up until this point. >> nicholas, listening to you and catching up on this news, i'm just wondering from your reporting there on capitol hill, senator manchin has been negotiating with fellow democrats, with the white house for months. given what he said today, then, given his position hasn't really moved, was he negotiating in good faith? was he serious? there at the table? >> it definitely seems like senator manchin has been a serious negotiator all along. it is worth remembering that some time ago said he wouldn't support anything above $1.5 trillion and then democrats brought him up on that number. it was only recently that you have these issues over paying for things like the child tax credit and other issues that manchin raised more recently with the timing of certain programs in the plan. and it is kind of a tricky negotiation, right? like, senator manchin is one of the few remaining democrats coming from a red state. he's trying to represent his constituents there. at the same time, we have democrats trying to enact a massive agenda with the slimmest of majorities. >> right. nicholas, i'm speaking with nicholas wu, congressional reporter with politico, he's on the phone with me now. nicholas, even though senator manchin said he's a no on build back better, has he been specific about what he's against in the bill? >> most recently his concern has been about the price tag of it. senator manchin raised concerns about the time the child tax credit is paid for in the bill, as it goes right now, build back better would expand the enhanced child tax credit for one year. manchin says that's kind of a gimmick and, you know, it would have to be paid for permanently in order to really factor into -- build back better no longer would fit into the roughly $1.7 trillion top line they agreed to. so here's where the rubber hits the road as they try to -- as they were trying to figure out how to move forward with this plan. >> and nicholas, one more question for you. and to go back to the issue of trust, and the lack of trust there seems to be within the democratic caucus. do you think that this rift is reparable or is it irreparable? >> build back better has bounced back from the brink before. and previously there had been ways for democrats to bridge the divide here. we saw moderates and progressives come together in the house to move build back better forward. we saw -- we saw the chair of the congressional progressive caucus pramila jayapal go and do shuttle diplomacy with manchin all along the way. the tricky thing is whether this say fatal blow to the president's agenda, or if something could change manchin's mind later, that remains to be seen. >> nicholas wu, congressional reporter for politico, thank you very, very much for coming to "the sunday show." before we go to the next reporter, congresswoman ayanna pressley democrat of massachusetts weighed in on the manchin news. let's have a listen. >> my lack and deficit of trust was about senator manchin. he's continued to move the goal post. he's never negotiated in good faith. we cannot allow one lone senator from west virginia to obstruct the president's agenda, to obstruct the people's agenda. jake, all i want for christmas is a senator that has compassion for the american people and not contempt. >> all right. that was congresswoman ayanna pressley, democrat of massachusetts. joining us now is nbc capitol hill reporter julie sirkin. thank you for jumping in front of a camera for me on "the sunday show." as i was talking with nicholas wu about, even though we have known where senator manchin has been on this for months now, the news that he is a no on build back better is a political earthquake, isn't it? >> yeah, certainly is, jonathan. you're absolutely right. he didn't say anything differently this morning in theory that he's been saying all along for the past several months. he's been where he was, he started out that fox news interview saying that this is a megabill that he's felt this way since the summer when he called for the bill to be at $1.5 trillion or lower. but, look, this is sort of the final blow in this week of reporting that my colleagues and i have been doing up here on capitol hill, where we heard first on wednesday that breaking news that build back better was not going to happen this year at all. they're going to focus on voting rights first. then we heard from a couple of sources that build back better may actually not get done until march or april and now we know why. i just heard a couple of minutes before i went on your show that manchin actually communicated his plan, communicated what he was about to say on fox news to the white house, to democratic leadership, and that sort of fills in all the blanks and all the questions we had this week, right? but i have to tell you something, he has been negotiating seriously on these provisions. we have spent months staked out of manchin's office, he's gone back and forth, been in multiple meetings and this last week multiple times with the president too, on specific provisions of this bill, like methane, like the climate portion of the bill, like other parts of this bill that it would be hard to imagine why somebody who was going to vote against it would spend all that time negotiating. but he says on fox news today that democrats haven't been negotiating this bill to make it more targeted and instead they have been trying to play around with the years and the numbers and the lengths of the programs which he had a huge issue with. he called it a gimmick a few times. now you have progressives, bernie sanders you played him earlier, coming out and saying, manchin has never negotiated in good faith, he is, you know, changing his mind, we shouldn't trust him, you heard from a couple of progressives also saying that they should have kept these two bills together from the start. and now we know why. and it is because senator joe manchin put a no on this today, he's not going to vote for it, it is hard to imagine how they can resurrect it. >> julie tsirkin, stay with us. i want to rerack this conversation. and show people once again what senator joe manchin said on fox news this morning that put pretty much a nail in the coffin of the president's agenda on build back better. let's have a watch. >> you have the debt that we're carrying at $29 trillion. you have also the geopolitical unrest that we have. you have the covid variant. and that is wreaking havoc again. people are concerned. i've been with my family. i know everyone is concerned. so when you have these things coming at you the way they are right now, i've always said this, brett, if i can't go home and explain it to the people of west virginia, i can't vote for it. and i cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation. i just can't. >> and once again, that was senator joe manchin of west virginia. democrat of west virginia, saying he is a no on build back better. the reaction from his democratic colleagues has been swift and strong. have a listen to senator bernie sanders, what he had to say in reaction. >> i hope that we will bring a strong bill to the floor of the senate, as soon as we can. and let mr. manchin explain to the people of west virginia why he doesn't have the guts to stand up to powerful special interests. >> you want a vote on it no matter what, even if -- >> absolutely. absolutely. the american people have got to understand what is at stake. we have been dealing with mr. manchin for month after month after month. but if he doesn't have the courage to do the right thing for the working families of west virginia and america, let him vote no in front of the whole world. >> and so let me bring back into the conversation nbc's julie tsirkin. you were mentioning senator sanders there before we played all of that sound from senator manchin and senator sanders and there you have senator sanders saying, you know what, senator manchin should have to vote on these -- on build back better, go on the record with the american people, but the people of west virginia on his opposition. how likely is that to happen? >> well, look, senator manchin has been calling for a vote for the last month at least. he said, i don't set the floor schedule, i don't determine the votes, but if they want to have a vote, let's vote for this bill. he will vote no as he indicated today. you heard from senator bernie sanders, he wants a vote on this. dick durbin has been saying let's put this on the floor. the only person who hasn't been committing to a floor vote is chuck schumer, the majority leader of the senate. he stopped saying that they're going to pass it by the christmas deadline in the second half of this week when it became clear that this was all sort of falling apart here. but another point i want to bring up too here is how republicans are seizing on this already. i've seen tweets from senator chuck grassley, a statement from senator ben sass saying manchin put the nail in the coffin and manchin released another statement shortly after his appearance on fox news saying that his democratic colleagues in washington are determined to dramatically reshape our society in a way that leaves our country even more vulnerable to the threats we face. i cannot take this risk. he's been saying that he's concerned with all the issues biden has to face abroad and here on home, both with covid, with russia, with china, with inflation, these are all things that manchin has been ramping up in the last couple of weeks. and culminating with that bombshell appearance on fox news this morning. >> and, you know, julie, i have in my hand the same statement from senator manchin that you've been reading from and i want to read another piece of this, which gets to something you mentioned earlier about senator manchin and his concerns about his democratic colleagues playing fiscal shell games here. he says the american people deserve transparency on the true cost of the build back better act. the nonpartisan congressional budget office determined the cost is upwards of $4.5 trillion, more than double what the bill's ardent supporters have claimed. they continue to camouflage the real costs of the intent behind this bill. what he's getting at there is, and it gets to what you were saying a moment ago, there are a lot of provisions within the bill and a lot of measures that are not fully funded. this bill is not a one-year bill. it spans over ten years. but there are some provisions that expire after a year, other provisions that expire after five years. and so what senator manchin is saying is, you know, one, if you put in a provision that expires after one year, part of the thinking in congress is well, congress wouldn't dare let a popular program go. and so instead of something say costing $100 million, it is really a billion dollars if you spread it out over ten years. and that is what senator manchin is getting at, that the true cost of this bill if you fully fund the provisions within the build back better act, that it is what he's saying, quote, upwards of $4.5 trillion. you're there on capitol hill. you follow this day in and day out. do i have that right in terms of the senator's thinking? >> exactly. you have that exactly right. that is something that senator lindsey graham, the ranking member on the budget committee, which senator bernie sanders chairs, you can imagine their conversations on that committee, but that's actually the cbo report that graham asked for, that he commissioned. now, when manchin was asked about this, he was, like, listen, the cbo, the congressional budget office, it is not partisan, it is not republican, it is not democrat. this is something that we should trust. but after graham held a press conference last friday or thursday about this cbo report that he commissioned, speaker pelosi, jen psaki, the white house press secretary, they came out and slammed the report as a fake report, it doesn't really reflect the truth of the bill and graham commissioned that report as if all of the programs in the bill were permanent. and so that is exactly what senator manchin has been saying. that's exactly what his fear has been. and you can say he definitely bought that report, he certainly didn't think it was fake. and so he's been saying that every single day. listen, if we're going to do programs in this bill, we need to make sure their targeted because we need to make sure the true cost is reflected in the end. and that is actually something he said this morning on fox news. and something interesting that bernie sanders hit back, he called him out for being the reason why the child tax credit is going to expire, for being the reason why all of these programs that you just said are popular, either won't make it in, the american people won't get it, or they'll expire and run out at the end of the year for existing programs like the ctc. all of this right now is really coming to a head as both of these sides are really up in arms about everything that senator manchin is saying. it is clear that he is just not moving forward on this. >> mm-hmm. the child tax credit is due to expire at the end of this calendar year. and correct me if i'm wrong, the reconciliation -- the reconciliation rule, which is applying to build back better, which would allow democrats to pass it on a simple majority vote, that doesn't expire at the end of the year, but it does expire at the end of the fiscal year, which is at the end of september, do i have that right? >> yeah. you have that right. one point about the child tax credit, when speaker pelosi was asked this week whether democrats should pass it as a stand alone, with some republican votes obviously that was a bipartisan provision, even under the trump tax cuts in 2017, she said, no, we're not doing it. maintaining the reality she thought that build back better would get done in the end. but obviously now americans are going to spend the holidays without that. >> julie, real quick. is the senate -- is the senate still in session or are they out for the rest of the year? >> they're out. they went home yesterday at 4:00 in the morning when they were finished voting on a bunch of judges and nominees, a historic win for democrats and president biden. but not the legislative win they were hoping for. >> right. julie tsirkin, thank you very, very much for your excellent reporting there. coming up, much more of "the sunday show." stay with us. p, much more of "te sunday show. stay with us welcome to allstate. where you can pay a little less and enjoy the ride a little more. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ now, get new lower auto rates with allstate. because better protection costs a whole lot less. you're in good hands with allstate. click or call for a lower auto rate today. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. you're in good hands with allstate. ray loves vacations. but his diabetes never seemed to take one. everything felt like a 'no'. everything. but then ray went from no to know. with freestyle libre 2, now he knows his glucose levels when he needs to. and... when he wants to. so ray... can be ray. take the mystery out of your glucose levels, and lower your a1c. now you know. try it for free. visit freestylelibre.us age before beauty? 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joining me now, neal katyal, former acting solicitor general of the united states and current professor of law at georgetown university and katie benner, justice department reporter for "the new york times" and msnbc contributor. thank you, both, very, very much for coming to "the sunday show." neal, since you're the former acting solicitor general of the united states, let me reread congresswoman cheney's question. because to my mind, that is a key question, did donald trump through action or inaction corruptly seek to obstruct or impede congress' official proceeding to count electoral votes? >> exactly. so that's the question and what the january 6th committee has been doing this week is really, i think, changing the narrative and the momentum of the investigation. i think for the last several months, the investigation has been on its heels and everyone is, like, let's move on, let's get over it. but two things really change this week. the substance of the revelations of the committee, and who unleashed them. so substance-wise, we learned everything from the fact that even the white house chief of staff mark meadows was involved in this. thick as thieves. we learned about a power plant presentation, a 38-page document on how the coup, mark meadows was held in contempt the first time a former member of congress has been held in contempt since 1832. we have texts from fox news on january 6th, saying that -- saying to the president and others stop this madness. and it is pretty hard to argue that the horror of january 6th was some sort of liberal delusion when you're on record texting pleas to make it stop. and then the who. who was this presented by? liz cheney. no one had that on her bingo card two years ago. this is not someone who is a rino or anything like this. this is someone who ran tv ads against me when i was at the justice department calling me part of the al qaeda 7 and nonsense like that. she's gone from that person to this person, standing up for democracy for the rule of law and exposing what the trump white house and their minions did. >> katie, you have a story in "the times" today, new reporting about how the committee is -- may add new expertise as investigation into the insurrection expands. and you write the house committee is weighing whether to hire staff members who can analyze social media posts and examining the role foreign adversaries played in sewing divisions among american voters over the outcome of the presidential election. according to two people briefed on the committee's decision-making. talk about the significance of that. >> sure. i think what the -- on first part, whether or not to hire folks who can look at social media posts, it speaks to the fact that so much at what happened in the months before january 6th and weeks before was happening in plain sight and so much of it was difficult for the american people, for politicians, for reporters to understand and absorb. it felt like every day there was a new set of statements being made online, a new set of rallies, a new set here in washington, d.c., a protest and clashes between pro and anti-trump supporters that we started to lose the totality of what was happening. to look at everything that was being said publicly to create a full narrative of the days and weeks leading up to january 6 th i think is important for the committee if they want the fullest picture. and what was the impact, more foreign nations, foreign adversaries able to use the divisions sewed by the false claims used on the trump election. we know that so much of what is going on today, so much of the division is creating a real security risk. and it is now not being sewn by russia or iran, but by americans. and who have been led to believe the election was corrupted. >> mm-hmm. you know, speaking of the text messages, neal, on saturday, congressman mo brooks put out a statement after a text message linking him to stop the steal organizer ali alexander was revealed. here is the statement. the witch-hunt committee secretive process causes rampant and often false speculation, a case in point is a single text from a sender who claims to be ali alexander to congressman mo brooks, the text is from that number there on the screen, a number congressman brooks' cell phone did not recognize. neal, one, is -- is that excuse going to fly and, two, am i wrong in parsing the words so much that i zeroed in on the fact that it says it is congressman brooks' cell phone did not recognize the number. >> right. these people are too clever by half. and, you know, i wouldn't trust their explanations farther than i can throw them. i don't think these people can tell the truth to a merit. the tell on all of us is are they willing to go to the january 6th committee, under oath, before the american people, and say this stuff. they're not. which is why they're all claiming privileges, the 5th amendment or bogus executive privilege claim, and donald trump is facilitating this, he's trying to use the courts as a shield, hoping that they will intervene so that congress and the american people don't learn the truth about what happened on january 6th. trump ran to the d.c. circuit, our nation's second highest court, saying stop this, executive privilege, executive privilege, that court swatted that down like a fly. took them nine days to write this really long 68 page rebuke of that. that is now going to go before the supreme court this week, supreme court is going to decide whether to hear the case, i suspect they won't. because, you know, truth seeking is a core function of the american political system and what trump and his minions is trying to do is block that with every legal tool they can come up with. >> neal, you just said the quote of the morning, probably for the rest of this show, couldn't tell the truth to a mirror. katie, serious question for you here, and that is this, the committee has had a -- has come under a lot of fire from people thinking that they have been -- that they have been moving too slowly, though that is not the case the last couple of weeks. in the new year, how likely is it that we will be seeing televised hearings of the committee and its proceedings for the american people to be brought inside of the committee's work? >> you know, i can't say with certainty that's what the committee will do, but we do know there are debates and conversations happening inside the committee about the pros and cons of doing just that. i think there is appetite to seeing some come out of the committee, we have seen mitch mcconnell if the committee finds something important for the american people to know, they should share it. i think the way that they share it is what is being considered right now. and to your point, about people like mo brooks, the committee already has information, reporters have information showing that there was a core of republican congress people in the freedom caucus who are working hand and glove with mark meadows, the white house, organizers of these rallies, to further the stop the steal movement. and i think because there is so much in the public record, it is going to be hard for them to deny even if they parse -- even if they say they might not know about a certain text message, it is going to be difficult for them to make the argument that they did not know what was going on and were not participants. >> and let's just be clear here, on this mo brooks denial. and i had to pull it up on my phone to remind myself that it was congressman mo brooks indeed who spoke at the rally and said today is the day american patriots start taking down names and kicking blank. it is sunday. i won't say the word. but i wanted to put that out there. anyway, it is congressman mo brooks. neal katyal, katie benner, thank you for sticking us with through this breaking news on this sunday morning. the city of washington, d.c. looks to make right wing extremist pays, literally, for the damage done on january 66th. r the damage done on january 66th. 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>> well, i look forward to meeting opposing council in court. i think your prior guest neal katyal as you said had the best line of the day. which is liars lie, and they can't even lie in front of a mirror. look, our case is detailed. it is specific. it is document focused, text focused and video focused. what it established is that the proud boys, the oath keepers and 30 plus individuals conspired, planned, organized, and participated on an attempt to take away our freedom. they injured the district of columbia and the metropolitan police department officers and as a result of their actions, the district of columbia suffered injuries and i have to tell you, jonathan, police officers died after the event in the case of d.c. three by suicide. >> i'm going to put up on the screen for viewers a portion of your lawsuit, where you write in the wake of this assault, the capitol was left in shambles with the district left to deal with the aftermath of the violent disruption to what should have been the peaceful transition of presidential power. the district seeks compensatory, statutory and punitive relief and by filing this action intends to make clear that it will not countenance the use of violence against the district including its police officers. >> well, that's exactly right. 850 metropolitan police department officers went to the capitol, but reesed the capitol police, of course, who were overwhelmed, questions are being properly asked, thank god, for the january 6th committee, thank god for liz cheney's honesty, and thank god for the thoroughness. what we are going to do is hit these defendants where it counts, and the evidence is that when you hit defendants like these hate groups where it counts, they scatter, they run, they're no longer able to organize hateful and violent acts like that, which occurred on january th. >> i'm going to -- i should have told this control room, element five, your lawsuit reminded me very much of the laws -- the successful lawsuit that was just argued down in charlottesville, where now they're ordered to pay the folks who are part of the unite the right rally, spencer kessner and others. does the ruling give you hope that you'll be successful in your case? >> jonathan, that case was extraordinary. i want to give credit to the integrity first for america and those exceptional lawyers who worked hard to bring justice in charlottesville. of course, that gives us a lot of momentum. let me tell you, for example, what some of the defendants in the charlottesville case had to say about that lawsuit. one defendant said, and tweeted this, oh, my goodness, this lawsuit bankrupted me. and it has destroyed my neo-nazi traditionalist worker party. another defendant called the lawsuit financially crippling, totally detrimental. another defendant said we have got to go underground. that's what the district of columbia's lawsuit. let me emphasize this, the only time a city or state has ever sued hate groups like this is the district of columbia. standing up for justice and the rule of law, and our freedom and democracy. >> attorney general racine, in the one minute that we have left, how worried are you that we could see a repeat of the insurrection on the anniversary of the insurrection. i'm asking that question because on my right here, to the studio this morning, we go by the capitol and i notice tall fencing on the capitol building itself this morning. is that in preparation or, you know, to guard against a copycat insurrection? >> let me say a couple things about that. first, back to the lawsuit, when you sue, you seek for justice and you sue to deter future conduct. that's what we're trying to do. to make sure it never happens again. as to the security of the capitol, jonathan, i live here, i always walk to the capitol. i noticed what you noticed. i don't know anything about that other than what i do monitor is the chatter online, and, yes, there is a lot of chatter around doing other acts that would be violent including at the capitol. >> one more, we're out of time, i got to ask you this, i saw the high fencing on the west front of the capitol. is that where you saw it or did you see it on the east front? >> same place. west side of the capitol. that's where i was. i walked really early both yesterday and today. i don't know how much time we have, jonathan. it is always been my joy to say please give your aunt gloria my best for a happy holiday season. >> i will do that, attorney general karl racine. thank you very much for coming to "the sunday show." >> thank you. all right. coming up, martin luther king iii is here to talk about what he will be marching for this king day. stay with us. marching for this king day stay with us ♪ limu emu... & doug ♪ ♪ superpowers from a spider bite? 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(gasps) ♪ did it work? only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ spider-man no way home in theaters december 17th do i need to pretreat my laundry? nope! with tide pods, you don't need to worry. rty. ♪ the pre-treaters are built in. tide pods dissolve even when the water is freezing. nice! if it's got to be clean, it's got to be tide. firefighter maggie gronewald knows how to handle dry weather... ...and dry, cracked skin. new gold bond advanced healing ointment. restore healthy skin, with no sticky feeling. gold bond. champion your skin. i may have moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. or psoriatic arthritis. with no sticky feeling. but we are so much more. we're team players and artists. designers and do-it-yourselfers. parents and friends. if joint pain is getting in the way of who you are, it's time to talk to your doctor about enbrel. enbrel helps relieve joint pain, and helps stop permanent joint damage. plus enbrel helps skin get clearer in psoriatic arthritis. ask your doctor about enbrel, so you can get back to your true self. play ball! enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders and allergic reactions have occurred. tell your doctor if you've been someplace where fungal infections are common. or if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if you have persistent fever, bruising, bleeding or paleness. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. visit enbrel.com to see how your joint damage could progress. enbrel. eligible patients may pay as little as $5 per month. there's a different way to treat hiv. it's once-monthly injectable cabenuva. cabenuva is the only once-a-month, complete hiv treatment for adults who are undetectable. cabenuva helps keep me undetectable. it's two injections, given by a healthcare provider once a month. hiv pills aren't on my mind. i love being able to pick up and go. don't receive cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients or taking certain medicines, which may interact with cabenuva. serious side effects include allergic reactions post-injection reactions, liver problems,...and depression. if you have a rash and other allergic reaction symptoms, stop cabenuva and get medical help right away. tell your doctor if you have liver problems or mental health concerns, and if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. some of the most common side effects include injection site reactions, fever, and tiredness. if you switch to cabenuva, attend all treatment appointments. with once-a-month cabenuva, i'm good to go. ask your doctor about once-monthly cabenuva. as we approach the national holiday to honor civil and voting rights icon dr. martin luther king jr., his family is saying no celebration without legislation. joining me now is civil rights activist and co-founder and chairman of the drum major institute, martin luther king iii. mr. king, very nice to see you again. thank you for coming to "the sunday show." >> thank you. >> so when i first heard about this, and, you know, some were thumb nailing it and the initial reaction was, whoa, the king family is saying don't celebrate the king holiday because voting rights hasn't happened. clear that up. what are you telling people to do on the mlk holiday next month? >> we're -- we're saying to people, we're asking people to join us in terms of how we observe the holiday. the reality is there is no -- we should not be celebrating part of the legacy of martin luther king jr., which was, of course, garnering the legal right to vote. when we -- when i -- i always for years talked about we observed the holiday because there are so many issues we have to fight. this year we are asking people, we're going to be on bridges, the president and congress passed the infrastructure bill, which is great. but we also need voting rights. we need to expand and protect voting rights. and so we're going to be in bridges and in arizona on january 15th, and then on january 17th we're going to be in washington, d.c. on a bridge with over 100 partners saying we need100 partners saying we need voting rights legislation and we need it now. >> how disappointed are you that given everything that's been happening around the country with the laws that are being enacted that at the state level, that at the federal level nothing has happened? >> well, the fact of the matter, as you just stated, just to really say it specifically, over 33 billions in 19 states have been passed to make it harder to vote and the federal government thus far in terms of the senate specifically has not done anything and so that certainly can be greatly disappointing, but it is the federal government that must weigh in and we need the white house to use its fill -- we saw what the full weight of the presidency working with congress can do. we need the full weight of the president working with congress and with the senate in this case to get voting rights done. >> mr. king, i have to get your -- since i have you here, get your reaction to florida governor ron desantis and what he said in as he proposes a stop woke act against critical race theory. he said, you think about what mlk stood for. he didn't want people judged on the color of their skin but the content of their character. you listen to some of these people nowadays, they don't talk about that. >> so, first of all -- >> your reaction? >> -- when we talk about history and when we look at history, we should be in a mode of advancement not lacking backward. you have to understand your history so you don't repeat mistakes of the past. that's why we're focusing on voting rights expansion. this is not a democrat or republican issue, it's an issue for everyone. to protect, preserve and make sure everyone can focus unencumberedly. >> mr. king, on that point, have you had any conversations, any conversations this year with senator joe manchin of west virginia? >> we've spoken to senator manchin on a couple of occasions and, you know, i think he continues to say he supports these bills. he's continuing to talk about it. how it actually manifests is not clear at this particular moment. >> and have you had any conversations at all with senator kyrsten sinema of arizona? >> we've certainly requested meetings with senator sinema. have not had meetings at this particular point. she says she supports the bill but i don't know how you support it without creating a pathway. the fact of the matter is the pathway hasn't been created, which means something has to happen with the filibuster. i am one who believes the filibuster is a relic and just like the relics of statues that we saw over the last year go down to confederate generals. the filibuster is being used to keep voting rights from being protected. so that relic has got to go. >> martin luther king iii, thank you very, very much for coming to "the sunday show. >> thank you for the opportunity. coming up in the next hour, many guests join us with reaction to the breaking news that senator joe manchin is a no on the president's build back better act. network quality. that means the best experience with calls, texts, and data usage of any major carrier, according to customers. tide pods ultra oxi one ups the cleaning power of liquid. can it one up whatever they're doing? 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[ sighs ] well, someone's got to break the news to mittens. [ squeaks softly ] she's a diva. [ mittens squeaking ] you have the debt that we're carrying at $29 trillion. you have also the geopolitical unrest we have. you have the covid variant and that is really -- wreaking havoc again. people have been concerned. i've been with my family. i know everyone is concerned. so when you have these things coming at you the way they are now, i've always said this, brett, if i can't go home and explain it to the people of west virginia, i can't vote for it and i cannot vote to continue with this piece of legislation, i just can't. welcome back to "the sunday show." i'm jonathan cape heart. we continue to follow the news that senator manchin has killed president biden's signature legislation by announcing he won't vote for build back better. he told them about his decision this morning. perhaps reading the tea leaves democrats have switched their focus to voting rights but manchin is an obstacle there too. he and fellow senator kyrsten sinema are refusing to change the filibuster which is necessary if democrats have any hope of passing meaningful voting rights legislation. joining me now, california senator alex pedilla. welcome back to "the sunday show." lots to talk to you about. before we get to the voting rights conversation, your reaction to senator joe manchin and his reaction that he just can't vote for build back better. >> well, honestly, not a huge shock but i will caveat that with it's not other yet. i think as i've said since the signing of the bipartisan infrastructure deal, look at the roller coaster that took us on. there was a bipartisan deal, then it fell apart, then there was a deal again and it fell apart. we got to the finish line and the president signed it and i predicted that would be the same case with build back better. he have' been in the caucus conversations with senator manchin and all of my colleagues and there is so much in the bill that's so important and so urgent. i mean, joe himself has talked about the child tax credit and why we should extend it for ten years, not three or four. i don't think this is over. certainly not easy. never was going to be easy. this is just another bump in the road. >> given what you said, it's a little nicer than what some of your democratic colleagues on the hill have said. congresswoman omar, congresswoman ayanna pressley. senator bernie sanders all slamming senator manchin as someone who can't be trusted. you said you had been in meetings with senator manchin. do you believe that all of this time senator manchin had been negotiating in good faith? >> am i frustrated? absolutely. so don't get me wrong on that. i wish we could have done both bills, the bipartisan infrastructure bill and build back better months and months ago. they were rolled out by the president. the agenda stays the same. do i think that there's a pathway to the finish line. the most important piece health care expansion elements, there's so much that's needed we need to focus on getting it done. >> senator, now let's talk about voting rights because you were among a group of senators who had a virtual meeting with president biden, with the president talking about this and the only way any voting rights bill is going to get through is if something is done with the filibuster and senator manchin and senator sinema as well, they're in the middle of that too. can you tell us about that conversation with the president and what is going to be that pathway to getting voting rights passed? >> that pathway is still what's being discussed and negotiated in real time. look, jonathan, when i joined the senate just less than a year ago, you were one of my first interviews. i remind myself and others around that and took the job because i didn't think it was going to be easy but because it is important. nothing is more fundamental than protecting our right to vote. sadly this filibuster stands in the way. as much as i am for eliminating the filibuster, clearly senator manchin and others are not. what we're discussing is a reform to the filibuster rules. not a complete elimination but something that makes the filibuster much more difficult to use. let's let the minority party, whoever is in the majority, minority, discuss it, debate it. you have to do it in person. none of this anonymous filibustering. you get to a vote and let the business go forward. just a couple weeks ago we massaged the rules to raise the debt ceiling. what could be more important than protecting our democracy. so when we get back in january i think that's going to be the first order of business. >> senator, that is the key thing that you just said, elimination of the filibuster versus reform of the filibuster. in the 30 seconds that we have left, in that conversation, in the meeting you had with the president, did you get any sense from senator manchin whether he was leaning towards doing something that would reform filibuster to allow this to go through? >> i do get the sense yes. both he and i were former secretaries of states so we noe lekss better. build back better, details matter. >> california senator alex padilla, as always, thank you very, very much for coming to "the sunday show." >> thanks, jonathan. take care. joining me now, the reverend al sharpton, host of "politics nation," author of "rise up." rev, there's so much news happening this morning. first, i would love to get your reaction to the news that senator manchin is not going to vote for build back better. >> well, i don't think anyone that has followed this is surprised. >> right. >> but i do think that anyone that was hoping that they would turn him around or that the president could persuade him being this they've been friends for so long, i think hope has gone because he's made it official. i think those of us in the civil rights leadership that have been talking to him and others about giving priority to the civil -- to the voting rights legislation because we're seeing states move now in an accelerated way so democracy itself is at stake, now we're saying to manchin, you have no excuse not to make this a priority and we have to deal with how we will either change the filibuster if you insist on keeping it or getting rid of it, but i think that everyone expected that he was not going to in many ways move forward with build back better. i think he just made it official today that those that had this hope that he turn around the last minute, those hopes were dashed when he made it official this morning. >> rev, you are one of the smartest strategists and political tacticians i know. am i -- let me get -- do you think that the fact that senator manchin has come out publicly that he is against build back better, does that give you a glimmer of hope that senator manchin could be movable on reforming the filibuster to allow for a vote on voting rights? >> yes, it does. i think that from a political calculus, that manchin would probably not want to look as though he was the total obstructionist to the whole biden agenda, and with joe biden now coming out after many of us pushing in the public and making a very strong statement on friday that civil rights and voting rights bill must be done, voting rights is a priority and then two days later manchin comes out and pulls the rug from under build back better, from a political point of view i think manchin is positioning now to make some adjustments on how the filibuster is done, even if he won't agree with us to have voting rights come through and he become one that says i didn't totally torpedo the president and i didn't torpedo filibuster and i deal with bbb later. that's political. i think that also when they are looking at the seriousness of what we are looking at with voting rights, where you literally have states, jonathan, like georgia that in using state legislatures to displace local county board of election officers, so they're really setting up nullification, i think even manchin has to say to himself, that's too much for me to stomach. you are undermining the whole principals of democracy if you are going to set up where you can decide who counts the votes. if they had had the authority to choose the county of board of elections officials in 2000, those counties would never have certified biden as a winner. so you're talking about us now having a fake democracy, and i don't think joe biden or kyrsten sinema want to be the ones that are the revolving door for them to walk through that. >> joe biden, you mean joe manchin? >> joe manchin, i'm sorry. >> joe manchin. >> joe manchin or kyrsten sinema. >> you mentioned president biden. let's -- i was going to play this clip, but it's from his speech on friday. it's a little too long. i'm going to ask you this question though in the time that we have left. earlier this week you said something truthful but incredible on "morning joe." you said, quote, we are acting as though this white house has options. now this was on voting rights. we are actsing as though this white house has options. they can either make this a priority or their voting base will not make turnout a priority for them next year. talk more about that because in the end, that's what really is -- in addition to democracy being at stake, suppressing your own vote, mr. president, is at stake. >> if you don't want to do it because it's the right thing to do for democracy or the right thing to do for blacks and people of color, for your own survival would you do it? you cannot win the mid-term election, you cannot save the majority in the senate with the razor thin edge and the raidsor thin majority in the house unless there is turnout among your base and black americans are that base. if black americans are ending this year without a voting rights bill and without a george floyd police reform bill, there is no motive for them to turn out. they did not turn out last year because they were just fans of joe biden. they turned out because they, one, wanted to get rid of donald trump and, two, they wanted to deal with the george floyd policing act and the voting rights act in terms of the undermining of our right to vote. if they end up with neither, i don't care how many of us go out there and try to get them to come out, you have to turn people on to get them to come out and they are turning people off. >> reverend al sharpton living up to the reverend in your title. thank you very, very much for coming back to "the sunday show." reverend al's national action network is a part of that effort i was talking to martin luther king iii about. also, rev, later today, politics nation. first at 5 p.m. the 11th annual revvie awards show. the best and worst of 2021. i've been a part of that in the past. at a special time of 8 p.m. eastern a live "politics nation" all here on msnbc. 5 and 8 p.m. coming up, my exclusive interview with congresswoman cory bush about voting rights and whether there is a chance of building up the voting rights bill. you absolutely do not want to miss this. always discreet. question your protection. try always discreet. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪♪ fresh flavors... classic dishes... ♪♪ and a new seat at the table. ♪♪ bye mom. my helpers abound, i'll need you today. our sleigh is now ready, let's get on our way. a mountain of toys to fulfill many wishes. must be carried across all roads and all bridges. and when everyone is smiling and having their fun i can turn my sleigh north because my job here is done. it's not magic that makes more holiday deliveries to homes in the us than anyone else, it's the hardworking people of the united states postal service. hey, angie! you forgot your phone! hey lou! angie forget her phone again? yep. lou! mom said she could save up to $400 on her wireless bill by switching to xfinity internet and mobile. with nationwide 5g at no extra cost. and lou! on the most reliable network, lou! smart kid, bill. oh oh so true. and now, the moon christmas special. gotta go! take the savings challenge at xfinitymobile.com/mysavings or visit an xfinity store to learn how our switch squad makes switching fast and easy this holiday season. congresswoman cory bush joining me. your reaction to the news announced by senator manchin? >> first of all, it is not a huge surprise. we have been, and let me be clear, there have been six of us saying this all along. we have been saying this for weeks, that this would happen. and we took the hits. we were told we were anti-our caucus, anti this and that when actually what we were and what we still are is pro the people because the people have to be first. the people have to win and oh, when i this about this no, this was a no all along. and so what we had was a bit of leverage, which was having the coupling of the two bills, the infrastructure package as well as the build back better act. having those coupled together was the only leverage we had and what did the caucus do? we tossed it. you know, for me, it's really -- it's sad. it's sad for us to say let's look good instead of being good. let's look strong instead of being strong. let's look like we have a win instead of actually having a win. you know what makes us look good, being good. if we're actually good, that means st. louis has what st. louis needs. that means st. louis is strong. that's how i quantify and qualify that. by st. louis having an actual win, by those people, so we're talking about the home care workers, the doulas, child care workers and providers, formerly incarcerated people, we're talking about people who work in our substance use treatment programs, all of those people, we're talking about them having the resources they need. what about our parents who lost loved ones or family members who have lost loved ones to gun violence making sure they have what they need. this is the problem and this is what we say so let me say. st. louis, i didn't forget about you. i fight for you the same way in congress that you have to fight trying to survive in this society. >> congresswoman bush, i hear everything that you're saying. i don't deny everything you're saying. what do you say to foekts. why isn't that -- why shouldn't that be considered a win, not just for the democratic caucus or for the country, but for st. louis? >> because our work was full full biden agenda. that was the people's agenda. this was not us coming against the infrastructure deal at all. we weren't coming against that even though people who look like me, there weren't black and brown people sitting at that table to put together this deal, but beyond that, making sure that this was about all the people that we could affect the most people in this country, because right now we have the house, the senate and the white house. we need to get the most done for the people that we can. what we said is let's have a vote. we have one bill that is for the infrastructure, making sure our people are being taken care of, making sure our roads, our bridges, our unions, all of that stuff, great. there are a whole other group of people we are leaving out. we'll make sure that those care workers get what they need. we'll make sure that 130,000 children that were eligible for child tax credit to make sure in missouri alone, in my district alone were going to get that. 500,000 missouri children in the summer free lunches. 130,000 missouri children to get lunches. capping insulin at $35. that was great. why are we doing great work for the people and we toss them a little bit but we leave all of these other people hanging? my work was to come here and make sure that we do the absolute most, the absolute most for all of the people in missouri's first district, starting with those who have the least, and i won't turn my back on that because other people say there's a better way if it's more convenient. >> we have 30 seconds left. senator padilla from california was on. he like you disappointed but he also said this isn't over. that this isn't dead yet. how much hope do you have that at least in the first three months of 2022 that build back better can be negotiated and passed and become law? >> when i leave this interview i'm going to the interrebs and i'm going to be looking for the phone number for the christmas ghost of the past, present and future and see if i can scrooge -- not scrooge, senator manchin. >> i know who you're talking about. >> congresswoman cory bush of missouri. thank you very, very much for coming to "the sunday show." coming up, we have an all-star panel ready to sound off to everything. keep it right here. tide, will ? 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>> well, i'm very upset about this. i think we all are. i appreciate jake's reporting and he's spot on. this is a democratic republic. we have 100 united states senators. why should one man in the u.s. senate have this kind of power to break the backs of families. i have an assistant with four children, someone who does work for me. she relies on that tax credit. her family uses that tax credit for children, four of them, and to say this isn't impacting real people's lives is ridiculous because of course it is. and joe manchin has too much power. we need filibuster reform or we need to deal with that issue because if this is what's happening on build back better, jonathan, i can guarantee you he's going to do the same thing on voting rights which means the two big hallmark items are going down the drain because one man from west virginia, a poor state that would be very positively impacted by build back better, is going to stop this from happening. it's a shame and it's not how democracy works and that's why i'm shaking my head. >> eric, your thoughts. >> joe manchin got 250,000 votes. joe biden got 80 million. something doesn't add up here. i understand that's how the u.s. senate works. i think manchin signaled in august he could have made this announcement in august and saved us all a lot of time. he really seemed to like the media attention. i don't know if that's why he dragged it out. i understand there were actual negotiations but this isn't surprising and then to go on fox news and to deliver the knife in the back to biden is really kind of -- you know, kind of a low move by him. it's not a good day for biden. not a good day for the white house. i'm not going to whitewash that. he had three initiatives. he got two of three. he did it with a 50% vote. nobody else has accomplished that. there were wins this year. this was a very high profile loss and joe manchin, like i said, really seemed to enjoy the media attention and he could have saved us all i think a lot of time and energy if he had come forward six months ago and said this is a no. >> jake, we've got a couple of minutes before we have to take a little break. i asked senator -- i asked reverend sharpton when i talked to him at the beginning of this hour about whether he thought politically and strategically that senator manchin by coming out against build back better that it made it possible for him and easier for him to entertain and maybe even go along with not eliminating the filibuster but at least reforming the filibuster to allow for voting rights to get a vote and hopefully prayerfully pass. am i going way too -- way out ahead there in even thinking of this in this way? >> yes, i do. i think you're going out on a limb here. manchin has been clear. i mean, if you listen -- we have to kind of try to separate the signal from the noise. what manchin has said, fine, make it a talking filibuster and to hold the floor while expressing their opposition, but if you take it the next step, i've talked to manchin about this, i've heard sinema talk about it with other folks, they say, well, in order to get out of the talking filibuster you still need 60 votes. so that's a change but not a huge change unfortunately for filibuster reform advocates. i want to focus on what eric said which is absolutely correct. yes, it seems you could make the case that it's undemocratic to have one senator control the entire agenda, but that is the united states senate in a 50-50 senate. it's unfortunate for joe biden, but you have to -- i find myself saying this a lot in this congress. you have to govern with the congress you have, not the congress you wish you had. the congress joe biden -- eric is completely right on this, if you look at arp, a 50-50 senate passing those pieces of legislation is astounding. >> right. >> i was skeptical about both of those pieces of legislation until it became clear they were going to pass. this bill is very difficult to pass in a 50-50 senate. we always knew that would be the case and it turns out to be the case. this is the -- this is what they have. this is the congress they have and they have to go back to the drawing board. now there are ways they can split this up, maybe, but i'm very skeptical. >> we're going to keep talking about this. i've got you guys here for the rest of the hour. we're going to keep talking. before we go to break. sad news to report this morning. former georgia senator johnny isaacson has died. he was 76 years old. he served when 2005 until he stepped down in 2019 due to his worsening health which opened the seat to kelly loeffler who then lost to raphael warnock last year. isaacson was popular on both sides of the aisle. as is written, isaacson's motto was a simple one, there are two types of people in this world, friends and future friends. we'll be right back. 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[daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. you're a no? >> well, brett, here's the thing. i tried. i really did. the president was trying as hard as he could. he has an awful lot of irons in the fire. a lot. more on his plate than he needs for this to continue when i'm having the difficulties i'm having and basically the challenges we have from different parts of our party basically pushing in different ways. >> senator joe manchin this morning announced on fox news that he is a no on build back better confirming progressive democrats' warnings about what would happen to the social spending package if decoupled from the bipartisan bill. my panel is back with me. we've been playing all this sound of senator manchin putting a nail in the coffin of the biden agenda advice a have i the build back better act which has been leading to questions out there on the streets among the people about who's in charge? and the person who sort of channelled that energy was charlamagne the god in an interview with vice president harris. have a listen and we're going to talk about it on the other side. >> who's the real president of the country, joe manchin or joe biden. >> come on, charlamagne. it's joe biden. >> i can't tell sometimes. >> no, no, no, no, no. it's joe biden and don't start talking like a republican about asking whether or not he's president. >> do you think joe manchin is a problem? >> and it's joe biden and i'm vice president and my name is kamala harris. i hear the frustration but let's not deny the impact that we've had and agree also that there is a whole lot more work to be done and it is not easy to do but we will not give up. >> okay. sofia, i loved -- i watched the entire interview and i loved that portion of the interview because, one, that was a tough question from charlamagne but, two, i loved it because kamala harris, vice president harris, that was the -- that was her and i -- i contend that if more people saw that side of her, not afraid of a fight, not afraid to get in there and talk about the issues, that she'd be on firm footing. but, sophia, to the question of, well who's the president, joe biden or joe manchin, what do you think of that question? >> well, obviously joe biden is the president of the united states, but i love that my sorority sister, nothing like an aka sister who gets fired in her belly and she was fired up rightly so. although charlamagne's question was a fair one he could have asked it fairly. that ticked her off a bit. we have to be careful of that rhetoric. there's a good portion of our country who believes that election was stolen. no evidence of it, it's false, but that narrative continues. and i think that we have a very difficult next couple of years ahead for this president and this administration with joe manchin, kyrsten sinema. let me just say this, jonathan. the democrats are where the republicans were back in 2010. what do i mean by that? go back to the tea party and the country club republicans starting to have that war. this is what you see with the progressives and the more centrist blue dog democrats who can't agree on anything either and ultimately they're going to have the same fight that the republicans are having right now, which is a pretty bad one. the party split and i see that happening for the democrats if they don't get the situation under control. >> eric, do you see it that way? >> well, you know, to the question of who's president? you know, joe manchin's best day of his life was when democrats won two runoffs in georgia. he was the happiest man in washington because he knew, he knew the power he had. in terms of who's president, who's guiding the covid relief, who's touring kentucky after the tornadoes, there's no question who's running this country. >> right. >> kamala harris did great and i've written about how i think she's gotten unfair bad press. so i am glad she's out there giving interviews. she's her own best advocate. she's great. and i'm glad she's doing more of it. but, you know, again, manchin has too much power. sinema has too much power. you go back to what joe biden has been able to accomplish, you look at the economy, job gains, the gdp, consumer spending, there's lots of good news. joe manchin is not the entire presidency. he's not the administration. and if he's truly serious build back better is not going anywhere, he's not going to have the spotlight. >> i was going to play some adam kinsinger sound. let me change my mind. element 1. senator manchin didn't talk about build back better. he was asked about his thoughts on the filibuster. let's have a look at that and we'll talk about it. >> are you open to changing either the rules or the structure of the filibuster to do that? >> first of all, voting, voting is the bedrock of democracy. we should all be concerned about that, brett. 232 years there's been rule changes. there's never been a change with the filibuster, the rights of the minority. i made no commitments or promises on that. >> jake, help me out here because, i mean, i know i asked you about this before, but now that we've got sound and we've heard him, i don't know where he is. is he -- is he -- is he saying that maybe he's open to reform? not elimination but reform? >> no. i mean, he might be open to some limited reform, but he's a supporter of the filibuster. joe manchin is for the filibuster. he's made that abundantly clear over the last 10 or 12 months. he does not believe, as he said there, that the rights of the minority should be impinged. he told me the other day, i talk to him almost every day, i agree with eric on -- in some respect here and i do think he'll have the spotlight because everything that goes through the senate needs to go through him in some respect. so when all democrats are on the same page and joe manchin is on a different page, that's just a function of coverage of capitol hill, that he's the -- he has that veto power. now could they -- he's having conversations with rules experts, but he has told me that he will not support a rules change that the republicans don't agree with because he believes some day democrats will be in the minority. of course, that's true whether it's 22, 24, 26, we have no idea. but he doesn't want to pass a rules change that doesn't have support of republicans. that's limiting to say the least. i spoke to raphael warnock about this because he says republicans aren't willing to pass voting rights and mitch mcconnell held a news conference and i asked him directly, will any of your members engage on instructions to change the filibuster and he said no. ipso facto, if you take that then that's that. i just want to add one more point here. >> real fast. >> i've long believed the power of the presidency is vastly overrated, especially in a close congress. so of course biden's the president, but you're not a full president, meaning you don't have all the power that the office affords unless you have a caucus or conference on capitol hill that supports you. i think that's what we're seeing now. >> yeah. i mean, the idea of getting republicans to agree to rule changes with a democratic majority is just bananas. much more with my panel right after this break. ter this break with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. ready for subway's eat fresh refresh™? 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[daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. voiceover: riders. wanderers on the road of life. the journey is why they ride. when the road is all you need, there is no destination. uh, i-i'm actually just going to get an iced coffee. well, she may have a destination this one time, but usually -- no, i-i usually have a destination. yeah, but most of the time, her destination is freedom. nope, just the coffee shop. announcer: no matter why you ride, progressive has you covered with protection starting at $79 a year. voiceover: 'cause she's a biker... please don't follow me in. welcome back to the sunday show. my panel is back for the sound-off lightning round. sophia, give us your final thoughts. >> well, i mean, i think that the democratic party has a lot of work to do. joe manchin has made clear for a while where he standards. i think negotiating like jake said is probably their only option and they better get this civil war in their party under control or they're going to end up like my former party, the republican party, which is a mess. >> eric? >> well, you know, one of the reasons the 50/50 senate is such a big deal is not long ago if you lost one or two votes, you would pick up a couple. but this republican party is so radically committed to obstructing anything joe biden wants to do, every republican in that congress, house and senate, voted against covid relief. massively popular, important piece of legislation. i think this gets lots in the shuffle. biden not only has a 50/50 senate, he has a party that wants him to fail, and frankly right now is committed to extended the pandemic. gop and fox news are. it's even harder for biden that just having a 50/50 senate at this point. >> right. right. i agree with you on that. jake sherman. >> biggest miscalculation of the year is probably from house democrats who voted for the infrastructure bill before they had hard and firm guarantees on the build back better act. one more point, i mean, something that is not getting a lot of attention is the middle of the party, the more conservative democrats, are losing out on their opportunity to change the state and local tax deductions, something moderates like josh gottheimer and others have been firm on. that was in the build back better plan, too. not only a loss for the progressive wing, but for the moderate and more conservative wing of the party. >> given the reaction that we have at least shown on our air from congresswomen pressley and omar and bush, and also senator sanders, jake, going into 2022, is sort of the atmosphere of menace given january 6th insurrection, but is the atmosphere of mistrust going to pervade everything? real fast, next year? >> yeah, a lot of mistrust, and they trusted the white house, which they believe now is a mistake because biden said the white house said they would be able to bring manchin along. they weren't, at 5 1/2 months into this negotiation, they haven't been able to get manchin onboard. >> that actually, jake, is a very good point. not only were progressives asked to trust joe manchin and trust kyrsten sinema, but it was also the president, the president who said, you know, hang in there. we're going to get this done. i am going to use my time on this show, ending the show, because we kept -- i kept teasing we were going to talk about covid, and because of all this news we didn't get a chance. i want to play dr. anthony fauci on "meet the press" this morning talking about a question a lot of people have. that is, is it okay to travel this holiday season? listen. >> well, i think people just need to be prudent. clearly, when you travel, there is always a risk of increased infection. that just goes with respiratory illnesses. but if people need to travel and want to travel for the obvious family reasons during this holiday season, if you're vaccinated, and you're boosted, and you take care when you go into congregant settings like airport, to make sure you continually wear your mask, you should be okay. >> real fast, how many of you -- oh, sophia, you're shaking your head. uh-uh. >> you know that i had a breakthrough infection in august and was pretty sick. can got the antibodies, but i did everything right and still got sick. i'm boosted. i'll supposed to be in paris for my birthday in early january. i'm not going. it's not smart. we'll do it another time. just going to stay home. >> eric, how concerned are you about all this? real fast. >> i'm concerned, but i'm grateful we don't have a president who is going to say it's all going to disappear, who isn't lying every day, covid briefings, the way trump did, who is not surrounding himself with anti-vaxxers and covid deniers. so i honestly think if trump were still president at this moment, this country would be on the precipice in terms of covid. look, nobody wants this. nobody was hoping for this u-turn, but i am grateful we have the leadership we have right now. >> we're going to have to leave it there, jake, sorry, have to leave you out this time. jake sherman, eric boehlert, sophia nelson, thank you for coming back, and one more note before we go, and this makes me sad. we want to say good-bye to one of our great booking producers, carly rubell, who has helped make the sunday show a success. carly, thank you so, so much for everything. and we wish you all the success in your next venture. we'll be right back. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mike's denture. but super poligrip gives him a tight seal. to help block out food particles. so he can enjoy the game. super poligrip. meet chef clem, owner of doughn't be sour, a sourdough doughnut company. she was flying back from a conference, when she got a text: she needed a bigger fridge asap if she was going to fulfill her orders. so she used her american express business platinum card® to earn more points on the big-ticket purchase. she got the new fridge, fulfilled the orders, and with her extra points, she got new equipment that allowed her to expand her business by rolling out a new product. get the card built for business. by american express. ♪ ♪ ♪ hey google. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ nyquil severe gives you powerful relief for your worst cold and flu symptoms, on sunday night and every night. nyquil severe. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head, best sleep with a cold, medicine. ♪ limu emu... & doug ♪ ♪ superpowers from a spider bite? 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(gasps) ♪ did it work? only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ spider-man no way home in theaters december 17th thank you at home for watching the sunday show. i'll be back next sunday at 10:00 a.m. eastern with a very special edition of the sunday show. but stay tuned because my friend alex witt has the latest, and i'm actually -- am i coming to her 30 seconds early? >> we have time then to chat. i have to say, when that joe manchin bomb dropped today, he's been hinting and hinting, and all of a sudden, it was like wham, you handled it, the conversation. we'll pick up on that. it's pretty extraordinary. the effect, the reverberations of this. anyway, have a great holiday week. and i will look forward to seeing you next sunday when we hand off again. have a good one, my friend. >> thanks. alex. >> and a very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. it is high noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to alex witt reports. of course, we're beginning with that breaking news. a key part of president biden's agenda is in grave danger as senator joe manchin just this morning publicly confirmed he will not support the nearly $2 trillion build back better act. >> i have always said this, brett. if i can't go home and explain it to the people of west virginia, i can't vote for it. and i cannot vote to continue with thisce

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