you're -- because you don't have your brother bill texting you the score like i do right here. telling me exactly when the grand slams come in. i'll do my part. i know how this works. it's all right. >> rachael, i was fascinated by your interview with congresswoman because -- especially because she actually did say the words, in her first response, well, i can't say what was actually said in the meeting. whereupon in the audience you kind of go, all right, do we go to the commercial now? like what's left to talk about? but it was very revealing and very, very helpful. for me, studying every little wrinkle of this. the for me the most single important fact that we know about the meeting is that it was two hours long. that is not a meeting about nothing. that is not a, so, tell me about life in west virginia. that's not what two hours is in those rooms. they got into a very serious discussion. it's hugely important. joe manchin talking to the woman who is leading the largest group of support for this legislation. i mean, that is a very important meeting. >> a lot of people that watched this and him stretch out this opposition without ever saying what he wants or saying contradictory things that he wants or saying the things that -- the same things he wants -- supposedly wants but are not in line with what he says he wants the pricetag to be. a lot of people are cynically assuming he doesn't actually want anything to pass. like, yes, the republican friendly infrastructure bill, the smaller bill, he would sign on to that. sure. there is lots of republicans on it. he wants something to pass that is not just the bipartisan infrastructure bill. now what exactly the bill is going to look like that he wants to pass, i think we still don't know. but to me, that itself was news. i sort of have been assuming he is just dragging this out as long as possible so it is easier to kill. >> and two hours backs that up. if he was going to have a meeting with congressman powell just to pretend that he is kind of act you have in this and just pretend, he wouldn't have pretended for two hours. can you do the pretend meeting in a lot less than two hours. this is the real thing. i think the really fascinating wild card here was at the very end when you asked about a meeting with senator cinema and to my surprise, i didn't know that she actually been in conversation with senator cinema. we don't even know what she is currently thinking. >> what if senator cinema when reported she wanted all the climate stuff taken out of the bill, the office responded and said, no, no, no, that is totally wrong. she began her political career in the green party. she is for the climate stuff. the two senators who are saying no are saying, no because there is too much climate stuff here. the other one saying no, you have to keep the climate stuff here. then who are you negotiating with? maybe cinema and manchin should talk to one another. >> that's the next stage. it's the president speaking to just one side of the argument each time. he's not going to mix it up. he won't put them in a room and mix them up. i can understand that at this stage. but at some point that some point those are the people that have to come to an agreement. so what does seem clear, though, is all of the positive stuff that congresswoman was saying is the important stuff. the believe that there will be a little. there has to be a bill. and then the very important thing, this is when you know that there is a professional shape of compromise taking place, when you hear someone say -- and we can come back and go for more after. after we pass this bill, we can go for more. that is a person who knows they're not going to get everything they want. they're already formulating their speech to the people who wanted those things about how we're going to come back and try to go for those things next year or in another piece of legislation. >> right, the people trying to get cut out of the bill, senator manchin. he is not saying i want these things in the bill. he's trying to cut stuff out of it. he doesn't have that option. he can't come back and say we'll do more nothing later. the thing about the progressives here is it they actually want policy. they want legislation passed. they want the government to act on these things. manchin is saying, no, don't do any of these things. he's not asking four things he waents. he's just trying to make sure that the country doesn't get stuff fixed. so that's, i mean, that's -- you know, i think senator mafrnlin' may believe gets everything that he wants here and everybody else has to come to his way of thinking. because he doesn't have any incentive to move at all. ultimately, you know, that the come to the task. and just a question of how long everybody holds out. >> and we will see. i was fascinated by your coverage of collin powell. we're going to do more of it here. and the impact on barack obama's presidential campaign. valerie jarrett and david pluf are going to join us. >> oh, good. >> to talk about exactly that. it was a hugely important endorsement. i think michael beschloss made that point clearly. >> i would love to hear their take on it. it was a seismic moment within the campaign. >> thank you. >> thank you. collin powell was 4 years old when he watched the united states of america march off to war with a segregated army. winning world war ii made that segregated army that collin powell would eventually grow up to command, the most powerful military force in the history of the world. collin powell was 10 years old when he saw a black man play major league baseball for the first time. that happened in his hometown of new york city when jackie robinson was allowed to join the brooklyn dodgers in 1947. collin powell went to new york city public schools for elementary school, high school, and college. he graduated from city college of new york where he joined the army rotc and began his army career immediately after college in 1958. he did his first tour of duty in vietnam in 1962 and 1963 when most americans did not know that there was a place called vietnam and that there was an american military presence in vietnam. he went back to vietnam in 1968 at the peak of the combat and at the peak of the death count in vietnam. when the american involvement in vietnam in 1968 was being protested somewhere in this country virtually every day of that year. collin powell's return to vietnam came after mart unluther king jr. publicly turned against the war saying, "were taking the black young men who had been crippled by our society and sending them 8,000 miles away to guarantee liberties in southeast asia which they had not found in southwest georgia and east harlem." because collin powell was born 84 years ago, he saw every first before he became a first himself. he saw the first black major league baseball player. he saw the first black supreme court justice. he saw the first black american ambassador to the united nations, the first black senator since reconstruction, the first black president. the first black attorney general. the first black vice president. and in the middle of all those firsts, collin powell became the first black chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, first black national security adviser, the first black secretary of state. in 1995 polls indicated that collin powell could have become the first black president of the united states. a cnn poll showed him 15 points ahead of president clinton. 54-39. and bill clinton won his re-election a year later in 1996 thanks more than anything else to the fact that collin powell decided no the to run. >> i had to look deep into my own soul, standing aside from the expectations and enthusiasms of others. because i believe i have a bond of trust with the american people. and offer myself as a candidate for president requires a commitment and passion to run the race and to succeed in the quest. the kind of passion and the kind of commitment that i felt every day of my 35 years as a soldier. the passion and commitment that despite my every effort i do not yet have for political life. because such a life requires a calling that i do not yet hear. and for me to pretend other wuz is not honest to myself. it would not be honest to the american people, and i would break that bond of trust. and therefore, i can not go forward. i will not a candidate for president or for any other he headquarterive office in 1996. >> having seen all firsts and having been a first himself more than once, did he what he could to help barack obama become the most important first. >> general powell, after you gave a campaign contribution to senator mccain, you have met twice at least with barack obama. are you prepared to make a public declaration of which of these two candidates that you're prepared to support? >> yes. but let me lead in with this. the i know both of these individuals very well. i have known john for 25 years as your setup said. i've gotten to know mr. obama quite well over the past two years. both of them are distinguished americans who patriotic, who are dedicated to the welfare of our country. either one of them i think will be a good president. when i look at all of this and i think back to my army career, we have two individuals either one of them could be a good president. but which is the president that we need now? which is the individual that serves the needs of the nation for the next period of time? and i come to the conclusion that because of his ability to inspire, because of the inclusive nature of his campaign, because he is reaching out all across america, because of who he is and his rhetorical abilities, we have to take that into account, as well as his substance. he has both style and substance. he has met the standard of being a successful president. being an exceptional president. i think he is a trance formational figure. he is a new generation coming in to the world -- on to the world stage on the american stage and for that reason, be voting for senator barack obama. >> collin powell voted for the first black president twice. and he cast his last presidential vote for joe biden and the first black vice president, kamala harris. bob woodward interviewed im for many of his books. he interviewed collin powell in july and knew it would be the last one. he said to bob woodward then, i have multiple myeloma kans enarea parkinson's disease. otherwise, i'm fine. i haven't lost a day of life fighting these two diseases. i'm in good shape. in the end, it was the combination of those two diseases along with covid-19 that ended colin powell's live today. he told bob woodward how he was getting to all of the medical appointments at walter reed and what turned out to be the last year of his life. quote, i drive up in my corvette and get out of the corvette and go into the hospital. colin powell was a long time corvette driver. his corvette was the very first thing that came up in the one private conversation that i had with him in new york city after he had just driven the corvette up from washington, d.c., 225 miles or so. ten years ago at the age of 74. and that final interview bob woodward colin powell shared his thoughts on afghanistan, a few weeks before the final american evacuation from afghanistan. colin powell said i thought we had to get out of there eventually. we can't beat these guys. well, let's get it overwith. afghanistan, you're never going to win. afghans are going to win. that's why i don't have any problem with us getting out of there. we can't go from 100,000 u.s. troops down to a few hundred and think that will prevail. bob woodward's final question to colin powell was, "who was the greatest man, woman, or person you have ever known? not a leader, not necessarily, but the inner person. you know, the moral come pass, the sense of propriety, the sense of the truth matters. who is that in all of your life? who?" it's alma powell, he said. she was with me the whole time. we've been married 58 years and she put up with a lochlt she took care of the kids when i was, you know, running around. and she was always there for me and she would tell me that's not a good idea. she was usually right." colin powell was 84 years old. . after this break, we'll be joined by valerie jarrett and david pluff. e jarrett and david pluff. s about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start, with about 10 minutes of treatment once every 3 months. so, ask your doctor if botox® is right for you, and if a sample is available. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't 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doing everything in his power to make it that way. and keep us that way. . what a difference it will make to have a president who united states us, who restores our strength and our soul. i still believe that in our hearts we have the same america that brought my parents to our shores, an america that inspires freedom around the world. that's the america joe biden will lead as our next president. >> that was colin powell at the democratic convention last year. joining us now valerie jarrett, former senior adviser to president obama president obama and david pluff, senior white house adviser to barack obama. he's an msnbc political analyst. valerie, so striking to see colin powell. last year we know he was battling parkinson's and cancer. he was looking as healthy as he ever did at that convention last year. i want to take you back to the 2008 campaign. and when you and barack obama discovered that colin powell was going to endorse senator barack obama for president, when did you find that out? when did president obama find that out? and what did it mean to him when he found that out? >> i'll tell you, lawrence, first of all, good evening. it's an honor to be here this evening. it's a tough day. but i appreciate the tribute that you and so many others have done to a person i consider to have been a great american. and it was not actually until i heard the words come out of his mouth that i was positive about which way he would lean. we thought he was leaning in the direction of barack obama. colin powell keeps his counsel pretty close. and i remember, you know, literally holding my breath the entour time he was speaking and what a relief it was that it was no the just i'm voting for him, but the reasons why he thought that barack obama was the leader who would be best for our country at that moment in time. it was very he will consequent. he spoke from the heart. and also from the mind and from the experience that he had in public service over so many decades. and it was seismic. we were so excited as david i know will attribute -- will will corroborate during that moment of the campaign. and it really, for someone of his stature and his gravitas, a senior statesman in the republican party to be willing to support the candidate of the other party and give such good reasons why, it was a good moment for the campaign. and for the country, i think. >> so valerie, let me just stay with that for a second. so you learned at the same time we did when he told tom brokaw on meet the press? you learned it when he said it publicly? there was no prior tipoff, no call from secretary powell? >> david is shaking his head. he didn't want to be influenced. he didn't want to be lobbied. he wanted to speak his truth without any editing or scripting by any of us. i think it made it so much more effective and powerful. >> so, david, it's a big moment in the campaign. you know he's going to make the announcement that's going to happen. the you're about two weeks out. you need everything to go perfectly at this point in the campaign. this is someone -- this is a guys that known john mccain for 25 years. he says something that i don't think we will hear again for a very long time before he makes this endorsement. he says both of them are distinguished americans who are patriotic, who are dedicated to the welfare of our country. he is saying that before he makes a public endorsement of one. what was it like for you when you heard those magic words from colin powell and what did it then mean to your campaign calculations? >> well, lawrence, it was a good sunday morning. so, yeah. just to underscore valerie said we didn't know what he was going to do, barack obama talked to him two or three times if i recall. but he went on "meet the press." we like the rest of america were going to learn what his decision was. i think more importantly, why. the timing is critical. and maybe he waited because he knew that. it was after the third debate. 16 dawes out. you're in a presidential campaign. he want to close strongly. and we paid a lot of attention to that in boning of our campaigns. how do we keep momentum going? all the way through the tape. and our research showed, you know, that race broke for us late. people forget, it was early september. i think we were considered the underdog. even in mid to late october, there were voters around the country in battleground states when you ask them is there anybody that might per suede you? many people said colin powell. some voters didn't yet decide to pull the lever for barack obama, they did have concerns. he was a young store. did he have the foreign policy experience? and again, you know, you showed colin powell endorsing joe biden. back then, he was a republican. he was chairman of the joint chief of staff for george w. bush. it was a political earthquake when he endorsed barack obama. and to valerie's point, it wasn't just the endorsement. it's what he said. for me, it was lawrence striking for him to say either of these men would be good presidents. it's remarkable in 13 short years how foreign that sounds. when you talk about barack obama's faith and said if someone ask you if he's a muslim, you should say no, he's a christian. the more important xwe why should it matter? so a 7-year-old boy or girl in this country is a muslim should know it's okay for them to dream of being president. it's the power of why he endorsed barack obama. and for me, there wasn't a better way to enter the last 16 dawes of that presidential campaign than having the words and support of colin powell. >> valerie, did you have a relationship with colin powell? when you're going into service in a white house, he strikes me as someone with so much experience that you might want to turn to for -- and by the way, experience with both wise counsel and unwise counsel and being part of both. >> there isn't a single will time we reached out to him and i did a number of times and ask either for the counsel, his advice, his wisdom, based on his extraordinary track record of public service when he didn't take the call and respond. and he put country over politics. the point we're making is the reason why i think this is helpful is because it was really about where the direction he thought the country should go and what he saw, the seeds of what he saw happening within his own party. and how deeply and profoundly he was troubled by the polarization in the same interview he talked about. the reason why barack obama obama's face should not be an issue in the context of a muslim-american who at the age of 14 when 9/11 happened, so felt this calling. jordan military and pay the ultimate sacrifice for our country. and that person is every much of american as anyone else is. and so why is my party any specifically he said not mccain. he said why are other member groups in my party being and festering this horrendous underbelly of hatred in our country? he was really pressing a comment that he was making about the direction he saw his party going and he turned out to be quite right in terms of the party. i think part of his legacy will be he is that voice of reason that voice of saying if you love our country, you have to be better. focus on how we bring the country together and those that follow in his footstep, that will reinforce that and be part of his legacy. so many young people looked up to him as a leader. it is very hard to be what you can't see. and he was a visible strong passionate dedicated public servant who also happened to be african-american and to see a black man in that role i can -- i think bodes well for the future of our country. just as having a black man as president with all of the qualities of a barack obama also is a way of saying this is a direction our country is going. doesn't mean there won't be fits and starts and sliding backward from time to time, it is men that are better angels and ultimately i think that's what wins out. >> and, david, colin powell and barack obama had something in common as kids growing up and as they were entering their careers. there was no model. there was no role model for a black man doing what they were setting out to do. and barack obama's case, become president of the united states. and colin powell's case, to advance to the highest levels of the military. that didn't happen and certainly, you know, all the way up to chairman and joint chiefs of staff. just his military accomplishments had never happened. and so they both stepped off into pioneer territory. >> there's no question. they both very eloquently through their lives and careers talked about the shoulders they stood on, the people that made it possible in prior generations. but, yeah, he was the first black national security adviser. he was the first black chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. he was the most popular person in america for many, many years including probably when he endorsed barack obama back in 2008. so, yeah, there are now in this country, you know, probably tens of millions of boys and girls now young men and women. and that's what spoke so uniquely about america. you saw the unt views that people aren't world with give about why they were excited about his election. same thing with democracies. these are people that didn't have pedigree. they didn't have the guilded elevator. so the example they think they set is going to live through the decades and generations. >> thank you both very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you, lawrence. >> good to see you, david. >> thank you very much. john heilemann and jonathan alter will join us next. john heilemann and jonathan alter will join us next. fermentation? yes, formulated to help your body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness well done. 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it is easy, powell said, i'm not a politician. for the next hour, barack obama quizzed powell about foreign policy and also about race. did the general think the country was ready for an african-american president? i think it might have been ready when i was thinking about running, powell told obama. it's definitely more ready now. joining us now is john heilemann and host of the hell and high water podcast. he is the co-author of "game change: obama and the clintons." john hulman, the impact of the colin powell endorsement in that presidential campaign felt so important at the time. but it came at the end of a string of fascinating endorsementes in which people like ted kennedy in a similar dynamic to the powell endorsement were turning in effect against people they'd been with for a longer period of time. the been allied with for a long period of time. and in ted kennedy's case, hillary clinton turning against her to endorse barack obama. you saw colin powell turn against his 25-year friend john mccain to endorse barack obama. >> right. and i think lawrence, it's important because they thought in both cases that they were moving towards a brand of politics, you know, in obama, that was more optimistic, more idealistic if not totally pure. something more noble. when ted kennedy turned against the clintons, it because of what he saw him do in that race, in nevada in, south carolina. ted kennedy was disgusted by bill clinton's race baiting in the race. and a large part of what pushed hum into the arms of obama was a rejection of that kind of politics. similarly with colin powell. powell had been watching, had been -- for two years obama and mccain had both been lobbying powell for the endorsement. and powell intended to stay neutral. and then he watched mccain choose palin, start using bill airs as a weapon against oep. suggesting that he was seeing the very good rallies at the end the campaign which were a foreshadowing of everything we saw with trump. and that was really what turned powell in the end away from muk cane as much as towards obama, turned way from mccain. as much as it uplifted obama, it shattered mccain who had a moment, a dark moment at the endst campaign and said, colin powell is against me. what have i become? you saw mccain in the last two weeks of that campaign sort of pull back from the edge of where he taken his campaign and could see kind of powell's like cassandra telling mccain where the republican party was headed. it's an incredibly important moment, i think, and tells a lot about where our politics would end up over the course of the next 12, 13 years. >> there say lot of reporting in bob woodward's series of books about the iraq war, about the bush add war series and it rack war. about colin powell's now famous and then famous moment at the united nations, hour and a half at the united nations presenting the case, the american case on what they claim they had found. what the intelligence sources claim they had found in iraq about weapons of mass destruction. and in the woodward reporting and others you see, that was a rushed presentation and that colin powell was pushing back a lot before on what they were giving him before he went to the united nations. but eventually he did go there and he did make that presentation. let's just listen to the key sentence of that presentation. >> the facts and iraq's behavior show that saddam hussein and his regime are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction. >> and, john, there were no weapons of mass destruction found, of course. they weren't doing that aset for us how colin powell handled that reality. after that was exposed that, no, that presentation at the united nations was not accurate. he then -- eventually over time dealt with it. >> yeah. i mean, you have to acknowledge that he was naive going into the bush administration. i actually spoke to him two weeks before he was sworn in as secretary of state. and i raised richard pearl and the other neocons within the reagan administration and, you know, bush won. and we're expected to have some real influence in the bush administration. and he was very dismissive of them. he said, you know, colin powell was not only enormously charming, enormously capable of putting anybody he was with at ease, but he had enormous self-confidence. at that point he scoffed at the neocons and said i'll be able to handle them. nobody is going to be able, to you know, jam me in this administration. he is telling me privately at the time. and then when happened? he got jammed by the cia. he got jammed by vice president cheney. donald rumsfeld, a black belt in bureaucratic in fighting every time powell would leave the country on diplomatic mission, this he would meet back in washington. then comes this u.n. appearance where this cia and it's really a mind blowing story, they took intelligence from an iraqi defector code name curve ball who they never spoke to they ree lied on german intelligence to inspect this guy and they put all of what curve ball told them into powell's presentation to the u.n. so he felt totally betrayed and within a couple of years went public about where it happened. and it was clearly the low moment of his entire career and something he regretted for the rest of his life. >> and, john heilemann, the -- his final -- what turns out to be the final couple of years, there he was at the democratic convention look being completely help nly and not the slightest hint of what he was struggling with, cancer and parkinson's. >> yeah. i mean what jonathan said is right. he was enormously composed and i think in a lot of ways, you know, that kind of regal baring that he kind, he was not a man that would have shown weakness, right? i think if he was in a state where he couldn't look the way he did, he would not have gone in front of cameras. i he think powell thought it was important to be -- to be taking the stand he took. he even -- because powell never entered electoral -- the electoral fray because he declined back in 1995 to run against bill clinton, he had this stature that ordinary politicians didn't. he used that to political ends. he was not someone -- one would ever say colin powell is part of the never trump movement. colin powell was part of something else. he was part of this movement as a voice for dignity. and that was the ultimate rebuke in some ways to trump and to what the republican party has become. colin powell is a life long republican. he is kind of what republicans were made to be in an earlier generation. yet here he was by the end not just kind of laboring over whether to back john mccain but fully onboard with joe biden and seeing no place for himself in in the republican party as it stands today. in some ways, he is the most powerful never trump voice of all for the fact that he wasn't so clearly associated with that movement just associated with the notions of honor and decency and integrity he stood for in the political sphere even as a non-combatant so to speak. >> john heilemann and jonathan alter, thank you both very much for joining our discussion tonight. really appreciate it. >> thanks, lawrence. >> thank you. >> coming up, defendant trump went under oath today in a civil lawsuit. we'll be joined by ted butros, lawyer who will probably get his own chance to question donald trump under oath. that's next. to question donald trump under oath that's next. on sunday night and every night. nyquil severe. the nighttime, sniffling, sneezing, coughing, aching, stuffy head, best sleep with a cold, medicine. ♪ darling, i, i can't get enough of your love babe♪ ♪girl, i don't know, i don't know,♪ ♪i don't know why i can't get♪ applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. people were afraid i was contagious. i felt gross. it was kind of a shock after i started cosentyx. four years clear. real people with psoriasis look and feel better with cosentyx. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections —some serious— and the lowered ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor about an infection or symptoms, or if you've had a vaccine or plan to. tell your doctor if your crohn's disease symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions may occur. learn more at cosentyx.com. in 2016, i was working at the amazon warehouse when my brother passed away. and a couple of years later, my mother passed away. after taking care of them, i knew that i really wanted to become a nurse. amazon helped me with training and tuition. today, i'm a medical assistant and i'm studying to become a registered nurse. in filipino: you'll always be in my heart. when you really need to sleep you reach for the really good stuff. new zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. it's non habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. new zzzquil ultra. when you really really need to sleep. re-entering data that employees could enter themselves? 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(vo) discover more in the all-new subaru outback wilderness. love. it's what makes subaru, subaru. today's episode of defendant trump, this happened. >> no one is above the law. donald trump sat in a chair, put his right hand up and he took an oath. he took an oath to tell the truth and nothing but the truth and he answered questions for several hours with his counsel present. and that is part of what we call due process in this country. and maybe some of us forgot that that applies to everyone in the course of the past several years, but i think today serves as a demonstration that institutions are in intact and the rule of law is above all else in this country. >> that is benjamin victor, the attorney who was able to be the first one to question donald trump under oath. first one since donald trump became president, anyway. he was forced by subpoena to give an under oath deposition in a lawsuit brought by protesters who say they were attacked by trump tower security guards in 2015. no details have been released about trump's under oath testimony. he will be forced to give under oath testimony in other civil cases including those brought by eugene carol and the case brought by donald trump's niece marry trump. joining us now, one of the lawyers that will get a chance to question donald trump under oath. mary trump's attorney, theodore butros. thank you very much for joining us. i really appreciate it. probably not feeling so great tonight that you get to you now scheduling depositions with donald trump. >> it feels like a dam is breaking, lawrence. i think president trump is no longer president trump, even though he keeps pretending that he is. and he is going to have to testify in these cases. i think it's going to be healthy, as the plaintiff's lawyer was saying there in that clip. >> let's listen to more about what benjamin nicter said. >> the president was exactly as you would expect him to be, and he answered questions the way you would expect mr. trump to answer questions and conducted himself in a manner that you would expect mr. trump to conduct himself. >> so i assume you were hanging on every word he was describing there. how do you interpret that? and how do you interpret it for your own tactics when you to question donald trump? >> well, it's very intriguing and provocative to me, because we all know that while donald trump was in office, he was a purveyor of falsehoods and the big lie that led to the insurrection. so for the lawyer who just deposed him to say he testified as you would expect him to, that leaves us all to draw our inferences. i don't want to characterize it. but it sounds like he was suggesting that president trump was just performing true to form, which would not be good for donald trump. and in our cases, i represent mary trump in the case that donald trump brought against her for being a source for "the new york times" pulitzer prize winning stories about the fraudulent scheme, tax schemes and business schemes of donald trump and his siblings. mary trump has a lawsuit against donald trump for that fraud, and donald trump is going to have to be deposed in those cases. and i don't think it's going to be a good experience for him. >> now he -- again, he's the most litigious person who has ever held the presidency by far, and he filed a new lawsuit today, and this is a lawsuit where he is trying to block the turning over of the documents from his administration that president biden has said do not deserve executive privilege and should be sent to the january 6 committee. in this lawsuit, it seems possible that he could also open himself up to a deposition in that lawsuit. >> it's another just baseless lawsuit that he filed. he does not have standing. president biden possesses executive privilege. he can wave it. and so by injecting himself into more litigation, donald trump is i think going to end up causing more problems for himself. he is used to controlling the justice department and being able to play games, but i don't think that's going to happen. i think the courts are going to lose patience with him. and so i think he is going to have to seek a preliminary injunction to stop the archivist from producing the documents on november 12. and he would have to show a likelihood of success. he is not going to show a likelihood of success. there is no support for his position. out here in california where i am right now, we call that a vexatious litigant. and that's really what's happening here. stall tactics meant to gum up the works and stop the american people from knowing the truth about what happened during donald trump's presidency and before that. and it's really an affront to the first amendment what he is trying to do to mary trump and sue her for her book. and this archivist, he is trying to squelch the federal government from finding out what happened on january 6 and leading up to one of the worst moments in american history. it's really -- it's not going to go anywhere. but it may take a little while, but he is going to lose. >> one of the big dangers for donald trump under oath obviously is perjury. since he lies so nonstop, what are the risks for civil perjury in testimony like this? >> well, there are significant risks. and particularly where you have a high-ranking government official. courts are not going to -- they're sanctions, monetary sanctions. we had a famous case involving allegations of perjury in a civil case. but here where president trump has shown himself willing to say things that we all know are false. i mean, it's not like it's ambiguous. and in perjury cases, it has to be very clear that the person has knowingly testified false. but our trump has made a career of, that including while he was president. it's dangerous. it's treacherous. so it will be interesting to see what happens. >> ted boutros, we have a space reserved for you the day you question donald trump under oath in that deposition. please come back. thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> i'll be there. >> thank you very much. we'll be right back with tonight's last word. word. knows everyone's unique. that's why they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. oh, yeah. that's the spot. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ for people living with h-i-v, keep being you. and ask your doctor about biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in certain adults. it's not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to and stay undetectable. that's when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. research shows people who take h-i-v treatment every day and get to and stay undetectable can no longer transmit h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems. do not take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your doctor about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding, or if you have kidney or liver problems, including hepatitis. if you have hepatitis b, do not stop taking biktarvy without talking to your doctor. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache. if you're living with hiv, keep loving who you are. and ask your doctor if biktarvy is right for you. with downy infusions, let the scent set the mood. feel the difference with downy. keep loving who you are. when you hear, cough cough sneeze sneeze. 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"the 11th hour with brian williams" starts now. and good evening once again. day 272 of the biden administration, and this evening flags at the white house, flags throughout washington and at u.s. facilities across the country and around the world are at half-staff in honor of colin powell who died this morning. general powell was 84 years

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