seems irrational, but before you remove it, you need to understand why it might have been put there and that applies in other government departments. don't immediately rush to change things before understanding why they were there. as you say, while i was chancellor of the duchy of lancaster i became increasingly aware of the need for change and then as minister for the cabinet office i sought quickly to familiarise myself with those aspects of the operation of cabinet office that i had not been directly responsible for beforehand and became even more seized of the need for change in how it went. you became even more seized of the need for change in how it went.— for change in how it went. you are not suggesting — for change in how it went. you are not suggesting that _ for change in how it went. you are not suggesting that this _ not suggesting that this functionality if revealed in the heart of a government department is something that should not be addressed?— something that should not be addressed? ., ., , , , ., addressed? no, it absolutely should be addressed. _ addressed? no, it absolutely should be addressed, but _ addressed? no, it absolutely should be addressed, but my _ addressed? no, it absolutely should be addressed, but my point - addressed? no, it absolutely should be addressed, but my point is - addressed? no, it absolutely should be addressed, but my point is one i be addressed, but my point is one born of experience, which is you need to understand why things are the way they are, things which are at first or even second glance within government or within any institution which may seem a barrier to progress, or may seem illogical, must have seemed at one point logical to someone, so you need to understand why things are the way they are before then saying, right, this needs to change, the justification has fallen away, the logic behind this decision no longer applies. logic behind this decision no longer a- lies. ~ .,, logic behind this decision no longer aulies. ~ ., ., , applies. was it also apparent due from february — applies. was it also apparent due from february 2020 _ applies. was it also apparent due from february 2020 that - applies. was it also apparent due from february 2020 that there i applies. was it also apparent due i from february 2020 that there were very serious systemic issues in the heart of number ten? the inquiry has heard a great deal of evidence about the toxicity, the atmosphere in number ten, the behaviour of people in number ten. you will be familiar with the references in the cabinet secretary's whatsapps to it being like taming wild animals. nothing in his past experience prepared him for the madness. he had never seen a bunch of people less well equipped to run a country. that could not have been hidden from you as ministerfor the cabinet have been hidden from you as minister for the cabinet office, could it? i minister for the cabinet office, could it? ~ ~ f , could it? i think mr k is's evidence... _ could it? i think mr k is's evidence... he _ could it? i think mr k is's evidence... he has- could it? i think mr k is's evidence... he has not . could it? i think mr k is's - evidence... he has not given evidence _ evidence... he has not given evidence yet. _ evidence... he has not given evidence yet. that _ evidence... he has not givenj evidence yet. that whatsapp evidence... he has not given - evidence yet. that whatsapp refers to circumstances _ evidence yet. that whatsapp refers to circumstances later _ evidence yet. that whatsapp refers to circumstances later in _ evidence yet. that whatsapp refers to circumstances later in our - to circumstances later in our response to covid, but i entirely understand your point. i think it is the case that almost every number ten operation has had by its nature strong personalities, and sometimes those personalities clash, sometimes under tension. those personalities clash, sometimes undertension. humans those personalities clash, sometimes under tension. humans express themselves in ways which, with the benefit of hindsight, they regret. it is certainly the case that under borisjohnson there were strong personalities in number ten, but those strong personalities had been responsible for helping to secure notjust responsible for helping to secure not just an election responsible for helping to secure notjust an election victory, but an end to the logjam in parliament over brexit, and many of those strong personalities needed to be assertive in order to deal with some of the other challenges they face. but you acce t, other challenges they face. but you accet, do other challenges they face. but you accept. do you _ other challenges they face. but you accept, do you not, _ other challenges they face. but you accept, do you not, that _ other challenges they face. but you accept, do you not, that this - other challenges they face. but you accept, do you not, that this was i other challenges they face. but you | accept, do you not, that this was an issue going beyond personality clash, the behaviour, the style, the personalities of the people in number ten had a direct impact on its functionality, its ability to perform, in the face of this unprecedented crisis? you accept that? ., ., ., ., ., that? you are never going to get a erfect that? you are never going to get a perfect team _ that? you are never going to get a perfect team of— that? you are never going to get a perfect team of personalities i that? you are never going to get a perfect team of personalities all i that? you are never going to get a j perfect team of personalities all of whom are beautifully aligned and amongst whom there is perfect harmony. you will always have, it is in the nature of politics, strong views, sometimes partially expressed, and the key thing, i think, is overall does the system accommodate a diversity of opinion? and then was a resolution is reached does it implement that policy quickly and effectively? i think that the nature of politics, the nature of decision—making in any organisation under pressure, means that people do sometimes need to be, you know, a little bit direct. the evidence. _ you know, a little bit direct. the evidence. mr — you know, a little bit direct. the evidence, mr gove, suggests the point is not that perfection should have been expected on the part of number ten, have been expected on the part of numberten, but have been expected on the part of number ten, but that it was dysfunctional, that it was chaotic and in terms of its ability to produce a policy, as you described it, to implement government decision—making, it was, to use the words of mr cummings himself, dysfunctional. i words of mr cummings himself, dysfunctional.— words of mr cummings himself, d sfunctional. ~ ~ f dysfunctional. i think mr cummings' written evidence _ dysfunctional. i think mr cummings' written evidence goes _ dysfunctional. i think mr cummings' written evidence goes into - dysfunctional. i think mr cummings' written evidence goes into great i written evidence goes into great length about many of the frustrations he felt, even before he came to government, about the way in which it works. i share not all some of the ways he saw government operated, but i think it is in the nature of anyone who is a reformer that they will feel the need to test the effectiveness of delivery and then what to seek to improve it, sometimes by being exacting and tough. but what one would hope always with an understanding of humanity as well. i think the question of effective government was and is best discerned from a detailed look at its response to different crises. again, i would not want to pre—empt the conclusions at all, but i think i would argue that the government of borisjohnson, when it came to preparation for brexit, executed that well, when it came to the vaccine roller, executed that well, but there were other areas which i know the inquiry will look at where it would be quite wrong to award ourselves. i varillll look at where it would be quite wrong to award ourselves. i will on that. in terms _ wrong to award ourselves. i will on that. in terms of— wrong to award ourselves. i will on that. in terms of the _ wrong to award ourselves. i will on that. in terms of the government | that. in terms of the government puts my overall response in the early months to the crisis, deliberately not addressing faxes, the government response was not efficient, there was a chaotic element inside number ten, inside the cabinet office, and the government, whether you put it in terms of, using your words, in terms of output or delivery, were significantly off the mark, was it not? i significantly off the mark, was it not? ~ . , significantly off the mark, was it not? ~' . , . . , . not? i think it was the case that there were _ not? i think it was the case that there were specific _ not? i think it was the case that there were specific failings, i not? i think it was the case thatj there were specific failings, and not? i think it was the case that i there were specific failings, and we can go on to list them, but i would add two things. the first is that governments across the developed world were dealing with a novel virus and governments across the western world scrambled to appreciate quite how devastating the impact of this virus could be on their health care systems, on their economies, and on vulnerable people within their societies. so of course mistakes and errors were made by the uk government, and some of them were unique and specific to the uk government. but i also think that we need to remember that governments everywhere made errors. this is not to excuse me from my responsibility and the mistakes i made, it is simply to say that when dealing with a crisis of this kind one needs to appreciate that for democratic politicians everywhere there were sudden and accumulating pressures which some dealt with better than others, but also the very nature of the virus and the nature of the response required became more and more apparent over time as more and more apparent over time as more and more evidence came to light. as we have seen from the evidence presented to the inquiry, originally there were scepticism about asymptomatic transmission. as we have seen from the evidence presented to the inquiry, there was a strong body of scientific evidence suggesting that to lock earlier than we did would have tested the patience and endurance of the british public in a way that was not sustainable. flan british public in a way that was not sustainable-— sustainable. can i interrupt you there to say — sustainable. can i interrupt you there to say of _ sustainable. can i interrupt you there to say of course - sustainable. can i interrupt you there to say of course we i sustainable. can i interrupt you there to say of course we will l sustainable. can i interrupt you i there to say of course we will look at some of the decision—making, the important and the information available, but before you go on from this topic, mr gove, you will accept that however eloquently advanced that however eloquently advanced that those observations in relation to the performance of the government can only be proffered by way of mitigation, they are not an answer to the basic charge, i don't mean that in the legal sense, that there were failings in the heart of the government machine, its departments, its centre, its operations at number ten that directly impacted upon its ability to respond to the crisis. yes, but i think it is important that we are specific and we look at specific incidents. so it is understandable that people express themselves in what's ups or in the heat of the moment or even in recollection. they will express themselves with frustration, sometimes anger, about what they see and what went on. that is human. what is also human is making mistakes. the key thing is where we individuals... case—by—case operating in a way that was cavalier, irrational, orfoolish? my contention would be that if we look in detail at each of the processes of decision—making we could understand that many of the weaknesses were as a result of systemic factors, other witnesses were a result of people's preferences, instincts and judgments leading them in a particular direction which with the benefit of hindsight was wrong.— direction which with the benefit of hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e. hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e, ou hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e. you must — hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e. you must have _ hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e, you must have been _ hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e, you must have been in _ hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e, you must have been in a _ hindsight was wrong. indeed. the dhs e, you must have been in a position i e, you must have been in a position to form a view in a general sense about its ability to respond to the crisis four evidence has been given in this module from mr cummings, from lord sedwill, also by sir patrick vallance, but with particular reference to his diaries, to the effect that between february and may 2020 democracy was overwhelmed by the crisis. i don't want to engage with you on the merits of the lead department model, we must focus on the practical ability of that department to be able to respond to the crisis. would you agree with that proposition, that it was indeed overwhelmed by the scale of the crisis? i that it was indeed overwhelmed by the scale of the crisis?— the scale of the crisis? i think i would put _ the scale of the crisis? i think i would put it — the scale of the crisis? i think i would put it in _ the scale of the crisis? i think i would put it in a _ the scale of the crisis? i think i would put it in a slightly i the scale of the crisis? i think i i would put it in a slightly different way. ifeel i would put it in a slightly different way. i feel i am having to go back to the lead department model, not as a shield behind which the dhse should be protected from criticism, butjust broadly should be protected from criticism, but just broadly to should be protected from criticism, butjust broadly to contextualise. the first thing that i would say is that i have a very high opinion of the ten and current permanent secretary at the department, with whom i worked at the department for education. so chris wormald. the other thing i would say, and i know not everyone testifies to this, but i also have high opinion of matt hancock as minister. however, i believe that too much was asked of dhse at that point and it goes to the heart of one of the challenges i mentioned earlier. we should have collectively recognised it was in crisis at an earlier point and taken on to other parts of government responsibility for delivery that was being asked of dhse at that time. i think with the benefit of hindsight those within dhse thought we can do it. we can meet this hour. i think that while that degree of commitment and leaning in is admirable in spirit, the truth is that at an earlier stage we have —— we should have broadened responsibility. we did in due course with the setting up did in due course with the setting up of the dual information groups and the covid—i9 task force, but i believe it should have happened earlier. ., , believe it should have happened earlier. ., . earlier. you said there may be have been an element _ earlier. you said there may be have been an element in _ earlier. you said there may be have been an element in the _ earlier. you said there may be have been an element in the dhse i earlier. you said there may be have been an element in the dhse that l earlier. you said there may be have i been an element in the dhse that we can do it. in sir patrick vallance was back diaries there are references to mr hancock appearing to want to keep too much to himself. thatin to want to keep too much to himself. that in the face of the operational mess, as he describes it, into which the dhse descend, there was a failure or mr hancock was matt parr and on the part of the permanent secretary to tell the rest of government how it was. they kept too much to themselves. would you agree with that proposition? yes. much to themselves. would you agree with that proposition?— with that proposition? yes, but i think, as i _ with that proposition? yes, but i think, as i have _ with that proposition? yes, but i think, as i have just _ with that proposition? yes, but i think, as i have just described, l with that proposition? yes, but i | think, as i havejust described, it was a desire to rise to the occasion and a wish to not evade responsibility actually on their part. but they should have been arguably a greater degree of challenge at an earlier stage. and it was the case that i, and i am sure others as well, used cobras and other opportunities, e—mails, messages and so on, to try to ensure that the right questions were being asked and that the dhse, if it was not able to deliver in a particular area, sought the help of the government departments, or had the oversight and scrutiny that other government departments could bring. regardless of their intentions, and they may have been honourable, you would agree that a failure to move fast enough, a failure to keep the rest of government informed as to the crisis faced by the dhse was a significant failing in itself? that is not how the system is meant to work. i is not how the system is meant to work. ., . ~' is not how the system is meant to work. ., . ~ ., , , . ~ work. i would take it one step back which is i think— work. i would take it one step back which is i think it _ work. i would take it one step back which is i think it is _ work. i would take it one step back which is i think it is the _ work. i would take it one step back which is i think it is the case i work. i would take it one step back which is i think it is the case that l which is i think it is the case that there was a noble intention on the part of the dhse, but it was not the sole repository of information about what was going on with the virus. one of the things we were all doing was both listening to the thoughtful advice from the government was much chief scientific adviser and the chief scientific adviser and the chief medical officer, but also seeing what was happening on our televisions, reading material that was open source and widely shared. so we could form a judgment about whether or not the whole government response and the dhse response was appropriate. so again we could make appropriate. so again we could make a judgment about the need for ventilators, seeing what was happening both in the far east and in italy. it should not have needed one single government department to prompt a question from others within government about the approach that we were taking. indeed, as my evidence points out, i benefited from reading outside government briefings in order to be able to bring to bear the sorts of questions which i believed were necessary to be asked. let which i believed were necessary to be asked. , ., ., ~' which i believed were necessary to be asked. , ., ., ~ . which i believed were necessary to be asked. , . be asked. let us look then at some ofthe be asked. let us look then at some of the document _ be asked. let us look then at some of the document to _ be asked. let us look then at some of the document to which _ be asked. let us look then at some of the document to which you i be asked. let us look then at some of the document to which you are l of the document to which you are privy in the meetings were attended in the early days of february 2020. just by way of introduction to this topic, and to explore your understanding as to what in general terms what the general state of the united kingdom was in, professor sir chris whitty has stated that he was under no illusions that the united kingdom was well set up to meet the challenges of a major pandemic because he knew that investment in health had been sub optimal. he knew that japan flew plans such as they were would not necessarily stand up to the challenges of coronavirus and he was aware there was no sophisticated or scaled up and isolate system compared to other countries. in general terms, isolate system compared to other countries. in generalterms, mr gove, in early february, were you aware of those concerns? was that a viewpoint that you shared? were you under any illusions as to the general ability of the united kingdom to respond to this crisis? i think it was only later in february that i began to feel a sense of concern about how well prepared as a country we were. prior to that i didn't have the responsibilities, but the general sense was that we were relatively well prepared as a country. those were the assurances that we were being given across government. and i broadly took those on trust. there were some ways in which the government, as a result of exercises and steps we have taken beforehand, was in a position to deal with aspects of the crisis. other areas where we were clearly weaker, but no i didn't have the prescience to see in early february that we were not well prepared. it was only later in february and early in march that my concerns about our response mattered. oi in march that my concerns about our response mattered.— response mattered. of course there was no real— response mattered. of course there was no real change _ response mattered. of course there was no real change in _ response mattered. of course there was no real change in relation i response mattered. of course there was no real change in relation to i was no real change in relation to those deficiencies, the health care system was what it was, japan flew plans had been prepared in 2011 and had not been altered. there was no sophisticated scaled up test and trace system. to that extent why were you not made aware of those salient features, those pre—existing aspects of the government prosper ability to respond? i aspects of the government prosper ability to respond?— ability to respond? i think because aaain i ability to respond? i think because again i trusted, _ ability to respond? i think because again i trusted, and _ ability to respond? i think because again i trusted, and i— ability to respond? i think because again i trusted, and i think- ability to respond? i think because again i trusted, and i think others | again i trusted, and i think others within government would have trusted, the department of health and those within it in that area. even after i took on mca responsibilities, which we discussed was in the middle of february, i could not have scrutinised every single contingency plan across government and tested it with the rigour that might have been deserved. of course we were in the middle of an evolving crisis and, as i mentioned earlier, and as is well known, while the plan for pandemic flu that had been developed had many strengths and virtues, it was in the nature of the virus that we faced that it presented a different set of challenges from those of pandemic flu. , , ., ., ., flu. indeed, but you would therefore acce -t that flu. indeed, but you would therefore accept that it — flu. indeed, but you would therefore accept that it turned _ flu. indeed, but you would therefore accept that it turned out _ flu. indeed, but you would therefore accept that it turned out your - flu. indeed, but you would therefore accept that it turned out your trust l accept that it turned out your trust in the system of government, your trust in, as you have described, in the understanding that structurally the understanding that structurally the united kingdom was well placed to meet the challenges of this new virus were misplaced. it turned out we were not. we were not as well prepared as we should have been. i think that is true. again, it is in the nature of the fact that the virus was novel and indeed i think, the biggest remit of the inquiry, there is a significant body of judgment that believes that the virus itself was man—made and that present challenges as well. it virus itself was man-made and that present challenges as well. it forms no art of present challenges as well. it forms no part of the _ present challenges as well. it forms no part of the terms _ present challenges as well. it forms no part of the terms of— present challenges as well. it forms no part of the terms of reference i present challenges as well. it forms no part of the terms of reference of| no part of the terms of reference of the inquiry. we are going to step away from the covid inquiry and michael gove is giving his evidence. we want to take you to another story. the former boss of the retail chain wilco is is being questioned by mps about the company's collapse backin by mps about the company's collapse back in august of this year. lisa wilkinson, the former chair of the business, the granddaughter of the founder, she is in front of the parliamentary select committee. let's hear some of that.- parliamentary select committee. let's hear some of that. terms on that loan were _ let's hear some of that. terms on that loan were hacked _ let's hear some of that. terms on that loan were hacked massively l let's hear some of that. terms on i that loan were hacked massively and that loan were hacked massively and that was eroding cash, as you can see in the figures for 2022. we lost the confidence, sadly, of key allies and we lost the confidence of lloyds bank which had been our bank for 90 years and they pulled away from us in 2022. we lost the confidence of the credit assurers who pulled away from us in autumn of 2022. we got some amazing support from some others, retail suppliers, some amazing support from some others, retailsuppliers, but we didn't get support from enough of them to sustain us through that. we couldn't manage to obtain further inward investment we needed either by way of debt or equity to continue to trade and implement our strategy. our customers, and you can see some figures over time, gradually reduced shopping with wilco. lots of people have their theories as to why. some of my are that we failed to grow and scale our online business. the cost of living crisis clearly reduced our sales. we had challenges around product availability which caused many internal difficulties to do with things like lorry driver shortage, distribution centre infrastructure changes, lack of credit assurance and low supply of confidence. we have moved to a position where we had an unclear customer proposition, and i have heard some of the statements people made, but our proposition was unclear against the discounters. we fail to satisfactorily address our category and product offer and move to something different and better. we had huge pressure on margin rates, spiralling costs, and i think it has been alluded to that it was over rented on the high street and we had weak processes and infrastructure. those are the ones infrastructure. those are the ones in my mind. infrastructure. those are the ones in my mind-— in my mind. that is a long list of failures and _ in my mind. that is a long list of failures and the _ in my mind. that is a long list of failures and the failure - in my mind. that is a long list of failures and the failure of- in my mind. that is a long list of failures and the failure of that i failures and the failure of that strategy has cost the taxpayer over £40 million worth of financial support for those made redundant. there is a pension fund deficit of over £50 million and creditors at best who will only receive 40p in the pound on the debts to them. do you want to take this moment to apologise to those workers who are facing christmas without work? i am thankful to so _ facing christmas without work? i am thankful to so many _ facing christmas without work? i —.n thankful to so many people for so many things they have done to help wilco, not least amongst those the fantastic team members who have always worked with us. the amazing suppliers and advisers who have supported us and of course top of that list has got to be the fantastic customers who shopped with us for over 90 years in our stores. i am devastated that we have let each and every one of those people down with the insolvency that wilko has done. i don't know how to put into words how sad i am that we have let down all our customers, all our team members, oursuppliers, our advisers, genuinely i don't know what you want me to say.- advisers, genuinely i don't know what you want me to say. sorry is the one word _ what you want me to say. sorry is the one word i _ what you want me to say. sorry is the one word i was _ what you want me to say. sorry is the one word i was looking i what you want me to say. sorry is the one word i was looking for. i what you want me to say. sorry is i the one word i was looking for. you can have the _ the one word i was looking for. gm, can have the word sorry, i am sorry, if you wish me to say the word sorry. i thought devastated covered it. i apologise, sorry. i thought devastated covered it. iapologise, i sorry. i thought devastated covered it. i apologise, i was not trying to be clever. i am sorry that we are not there supporting all those people any more.— not there supporting all those people any more. there was a long list of problems _ people any more. there was a long list of problems you _ people any more. there was a long list of problems you identified i people any more. there was a long j list of problems you identified from the prime minister's budget through to the partners that you had, for example your financial partners, what were the mistakes that you made? ~ ., what were the mistakes that you made? ~ . ., ., what were the mistakes that you made? . . ., ., ' . made? what would i do differently if i had the time _ made? what would i do differently if i had the time again? _ made? what would i do differently if i had the time again? it _ made? what would i do differently if i had the time again? it is _ made? what would i do differently if i had the time again? it is a - i had the time again? it is a question i ask myself all the time. i would do differently that year that was 2022. we started out that you're not as strong as we should have done. we had positive cash, we had decent trading sales, we had no debt position at all at the beginning of 2022. and in each four week period of 2022 by trading down on our numbers we were eroding cash. the first thing i would like to do differently if i could was be more proactive on that declining sales dropping into cash in 2022. the next two things are a popularity vote. i wish i had brought mark in earlier, he would have made a difference if we had brought him in earlier, and i wish i had taken the advice of pricewaterhousecoopers earlier. those are the three things i wish i had done. ., ~ those are the three things i wish i had done. . ~ i. those are the three things i wish i had done. ., ~' ,, . . had done. thank you, chair. indeed, with the problems _ had done. thank you, chair. indeed, with the problems in _ had done. thank you, chair. indeed, with the problems in 2022, - had done. thank you, chair. indeed, with the problems in 2022, nc- had done. thank you, chair. indeed, with the problems in 2022, nc had| with the problems in 2022, pwc had already— with the problems in 2022, pwc had already identified issues. something that came _ already identified issues. something that came out this morning's session. _ that came out this morning's session. i_ that came out this morning's session, i would like to clear it up if i could — session, i would like to clear it up if i could if— session, i would like to clear it up if i could. if the business was not sustainable at that point what was the conversation going on in that period _ the conversation going on in that period during the sale of the major asset_ period during the sale of the major asset to _ period during the sale of the major asset to try— period during the sale of the major asset to try and improve the situation? could that conversation have gone — situation? could that conversation have gone a bit better with sale of the major— have gone a bit better with sale of the major asset? iam nota i am not a financially qualified person and to get that question answered as i suspect you would like it answered, i would need a member of my finance team or the chair of my audit committee. that doesn't mean i will not answer it, i am. can i check you — mean i will not answer it, i am. can i check you are _ mean i will not answer it, i am. can i check you are a _ mean i will not answer it, i am. can i check you are a family director of the company? | i check you are a family director of the company?— i check you are a family director of the company?- with - i check you are a family director of the company? i am. with the duties that no the company? i am. with the duties that go with — the company? i am. with the duties that go with that? _ the company? i am. with the duties that go with that? of— the company? i am. with the duties that go with that? of course - the company? i am. with the duties that go with that? of course which l that go with that? of course which is wh i that go with that? of course which is why i will _ that go with that? of course which is why i will answer _ that go with that? of course which is why i will answer the _ that go with that? of course which is why i will answer the question l is why i will answer the question but i cannot answer from that financially qualified perspective. two things had to be true for us to sign off our accounts for that year end. one, we had to have sufficient cash and liquidity to ensure that we could continue to trade as a going concern, and the second was we had to have reasonable and achievable financial trading numbers that we were predicting we would deliver through 2023. we were put under enormous pressure by our then auditors to prove both of those things, that we would have adequate cash and that our numbers were reasonable and achievable. the adequate cash, as you have seen because it was on record, was coming from either secured lending against our distribution centre in worksop as it transpired at the sale and lease back of worksop. and secondly through an abl asset based lending which we secured

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