hello, i am ros atkins, welcome to this week's media show. we will talk about bbc three because it is back six years after the bbc decided it shouldn't be a linear channel. and we will talk about spotify and joe rogan. and people are saying should spotify be funding content like that. we will get into the issues that raises. let me introduce you to our guests. you commissioned lots of opinion pieces, will you be commissioning something on joe rogan? absolutely. at newsweek we try to represent the full breadth of opinion, relevant to americans and we will have pieces from that this information point of view, we have pieces talking about how this story is about the culture war, the class four, the race for, we are trying to get at that story from all points of view. we will return to spotify and joe rogan in a moment, but let's spend a bit of time closer to home. bbc three is back as a traditional tv channel and its controller, fiona campbell has been explaining why. a channel is an additional signal, it is a really loud noise on which we can place our most successful shows and launch new talent from. it is a place from which we can shout and say, this is the place for you. you can switch it on, relax and see your world and struggles reflected. there is evidence in the industry after research that shows that tv is still used for watching cable and free to air services. it is still a real moment. the bbc has gathered 5 million people to watch green planet and bbc one. tv provides a moment for people to be together and drive conversation where people want to share things together at a specific moment in time, just look at strictly come dancing. are you convinced? good afternoon. much like eating with my ex, which was a key show and relaunch night yesterday, there are some people who are quite happy to see an old flame, others who are less thrilled, i think. it return is an an acknowledgement from the bbc in that taking it off air in 2016 it was a huge mistake. i am not sure bringing it back now will necessarily put that right, for various reasons. other services, such as netflix have caught up and overtake on the bbc in some areas. given the arguments fiona campbell was making, if we accept they are persuasive, why weren't they persuasive six years ago when other people were making the same arguments for not getting rid of it in the first place. what has changed is the bbc has realised it has a crisis in terms of young audiences. this is its big play to try and win them back in some respects. you can talk about the mechanics of that and whether or not it will work or not. fiona campbell herself, the controller of bbc, has talked about it and enhancing the content discovery ecosystem. in other words, that means another screen through which young people can engage with bbc content and hopefully that points them back to iplayer where they are recommended shows they may enjoy. i think one of the big criticisms of this decision is that bbc three is coming back with a lower budget than when it went dark. that to some think it shows that the bbc is not as committed to young audience as it should be. if it was committed to young audiences, it would restore the budget and increase it with inflation. you have the silicon valley corresspondent for the washington post, i wonder what your thoughts are when you listen to jake and i discussing the bbc bringing back a linear tv channel. presumably some people in silicon valley might raise an eyebrow at that? in silicon valley there is an enormous amount of experimentation on content models. we have traditional media which is very much suffering in the wake of streaming services and the proliferation of streaming services, but also the bbc is a huge brand. when you are an enormous brand, a powerful brand you have the freedom to experiment and they get served in the end up following the start—ups. when you are a powerful brand you already have a built—in audience that may follow you to your next development and you should capitalise on that. the bbc is no doubt a powerful brand, but it has got less money and it is supposed to be saving money and closing services. we have heard from the director—general that some services will have to go. how does he squared that declaration with bringing a service like this back? i don't think he does. i think this is awkwardly timed for the bbc. that is not necessarily a problem in its own making. but you are right, the bbc has had its licence fee frozen for the next two years, which will equate to a funding shortfall of around £11; billion over the next six years or $0. and while doing that, it is same channels are going to come under threat and it is doing that at the same time as launching a channel. the timing is definitely awkward. for the bbc�*s say, i think supporters of the bbc have to keep in mind that the success of the organisation rely on it attracting new audiences and therefore new generations of licence fee payers. and that is why this bbc three play is important to the future of the bbc. part of that play for young audiences is a new programme called the catch up, three to four minute round—up of the news. this is some of the first edition. next up, several conservative mps have told the bbc that they are unsure whether or not to back the prime minister. it is after $00 great's initial report came out yesterday. she said during the pandemic there were failures of leadership and judgment and excessive drinking at numberten and the cabinet office. that is where the prime minister's top team works. her formal report will be released at any stage. the lead producer of the catchup is with us. i know that before you even started putting a programme together, you did a lot of research about what younger people want from the news. i wonder what you found? we did, we have a good team in the audiences section - of the bbc have put together several focus groups. - they found real people i from across the uk most importantly, in that 16 i to 24—year—old age group outside of london, outside i of the metropolitan elite that i think we see on our timelines, a certain. type of person. they found some real peoplej and they did a lot of research and found they wanted things explaining to them in - a slightly more, not- a patronising way but a more simplified way unless - assumption they have been following ongoing stories. and more sense of content that is specifically for them. one quote even that stood i outside every time they tuned in to the normal news of the typical news, . they felt they had missed a million episodes since i they last tuned in. and are the particular stories they want you to cover, subject areas they didn't want to hear about, putting it another way? what was the most interesting during the research, _ you would imagine a really easy way to attract audiences - would be lets put in lots of celebrity stories, - lets put in lots of - entertainment stories. a lot of the feedback- was overwhelmingly, we have already heard about that - on social media so if we have heard about that 12 hours ago, the bbc is not telling - us anything new. if there is a reason to do an entertainment story. because it has broken, great. but if it is old, - why would we bother. young people are interested in politics, international- stories and information i on things like the ukraine and if you know about the news and you feel informed, - you can talk to your friends or a colleague and feel smarter. | but if all of that is true and the bbc were to shape its news for this particular age group that you have described, why would you make a tv programme, why wouldn't you make digital content placed exactly where we know people of that age are spending a lot of time? i think it comes into - what you were saying before about the need for a linear channel and the audiencesj of that linear channel is helping to snag. i the researchers found i there is an appetite out there for linear tv and people want to tune in every week. for drag race or normal people, the latest flea bag episode. - if you put a full minute . bulletin just after that just before that, you are more likely to get people who l wouldn't seek out news online. jake, as you are listening to this, are you convinced or do you think news audience has moved away from tv well bbc three wasn't there? i find the arguments of a news bulletin absolutely fascinating. there is some evidence from last night to show that the research is correct, because if you look at drag race, which premiered last night, drag race versus the world, it did really well. it beat e4, a rival channel, also targeted at young audiences and 34% of the viewers were 16 to 34. when drag race was on bbc one, it was and i play originally but bbc one showed it as part of the strategy, it was only 2% of its audience were 16 to 34. you can see that bbc three, a destination for young audiences is immediately attracting younger audiences and you hope they would stumble across a news bulletin. the work goes on, when he finished speaking, you go back to producing this evening's bulletin, i wonder what is going to be in it? some attempt to explain| what levelling up means, without using the words, levelling up~ _ what is the money going to mean for different parts of england - and i think we will be taking a look at what is happeningl at a raith rovers over the last 24—hour is. l we are in the middle of the africa cup of. nations semifinals. we have to think about the audience we have i on any given night. thank you for speaking to us during a busy week. that is the relaunch of bbc three as a linear tv channel, but let's turn now to what is definitely the biggest media squabble of the week. surely this is the first time we have had a story with neil young, joni mitchell and one of the well�*s most popular podcast host, joe rogan. elizabeth, help me out on this for people coming to the story fresh, what has happened in the last few days concerning those different characters? you have one of the most popular podcast is in the united states, i think he has an audience of 11 million, joe rogan. elite conservative and to the right and has some controversial guests who are very much out of mainstream thinking and have said some very offensive things as well and also promoted misinformation about covid. we can talk about what they have said, things like a prominent anti—vaccine that americans have been hypnotised into wearing masks and are duped into taking the vaccine. he himself has questioned whether young people need to take the vaccine and said, he doesn't think you need to take it if you have already had covid, which is not what the medical experts have said. and on and on, there has been tonnes of offensive material. he has put out a statement insisting he is not anti—vaccine. explain why concerns aboutjoe rogan and covid, which are not new, why have they escalated in the last few days? they started escalating a couple of weeks ago when there was a letter from 250 concerned scientists, worried about his comments. but then it really took off when neil young, who has a history of standing up against large institutions in the music industry, he said i am going to pull my music, it will be me orjoe rogan. and thenjoni mitchell followed him, and other people followed. it has ballooned and internally, spotify�*s employee base which has been in crisis over rogan, they are having a town hall right now over the city. when neil young offered the option of spotify of young or rogan, so far, spotify have chosen rogan. he has millions of followers on social media and let me give you an idea of what his podcasts are like. sometimes conversations can be very long, over three hours. this is one with elon musk last year which drifted onto the question of the human race beyond earth. could you colonise the galaxy in a million years, absolutely you would build bases on mars and use malls tojump after these other set up places there and over thousands of years? you know, from one solar system to the next. that is something for us to consider. jake, media correspondent at the times, can you explain why spotify, business initially based around music streaming would move so heavily into podcasting with an exclusive deal with joe rogan? first and foremost, podcasting is booming at the moment. joe rogan is perhaps spotify�*s biggest bet in this area. they have spent a reported £100 million, sorry $100 million tying him down into an exclusive deal. it speaks to the growing streaming and audio and spotify has determined that exclusivity over rogan is more valuable than the music of neil young. it is similar to what we have seen in television. television companies like netflix and disney are spending billions of dollars on original programming, exclusive shows that will bring audiences to their platform and make sure that they subscribe. we are seeing the same phenomenon in audio and that is whyjoe rogan is important to spotify, he is like a beacon. he is a huge figure in this area. and is part of this as well, elizabeth, despite the fact spotify is one of the most popular streaming services in the world, it still struggles to make money off streaming music? exactly, the revenue, spotify went public in 2017 and is trying to transform itself into a publisher. they are a media company, it is the same when the washington post produces a podcast, we have control over the content because it is associated with our brand, it is our podcast. it is a transition from a platform to being a straight up media company and with that comes lots of responsibilities. also, there is revenue there right now, advertising revenue is a small proportion of spotify's revenue, they make much more from subscriptions. when you look at the kind of prices ads in an exclusive podcast can generate, you start to understand also why they are going into it. not just differentiation, because streaming, any artist can stream in ten different places, that is why it is hard to make money. you make these exclusive deals with popular podcast as he will only post the content on your service and then you can command really high ad prices and they are staking their future on that. you get the money in return, but with that comes responsibilities. let's speak about that with marianna spring, bbc news's this information reporter. joe rogan has been accused of a range of things when it comes to covid misinformation, guide us through some of the areas he has got involved in? one of the biggest concerns when it comes to rogan's . podcast has been the fringe guest he has a featuring - on the programmes andl that they, in many ways, become a gateway into morel extreme ways of thinking and more can spiritual mentalities. recently he had a prominent anti—vaccine influence, - who has promoted a number of false claims about - the vaccine and suggesting people should not have it i or that it is causing harm. and people tuning into the podcast, which is i conversational, like you say and they might find more . accessible and interesting j than some of the accurate and slightly more boring. information from scientists and trusted experts. they will listen to it and then they will follow up, _ googled this influencer . and then find themselves brought into more extreme views. i it has been the same when it comes to different topics - from far right influence - all those who have promoted in cell —like beliefs as well, about women and so on. i rogan's approach to this, | i am just asking questions and understand what different pe0ple think _ but it risks pushing people towards these extremes . that they otherwise would have been aware of. _ and i guess that taps into the fact there are two interesting questions, one should these people even beat on his podcast in the first place? the second is, if they are going be there, how does he handle what they say? from newsweek, iwant to ask you about that. but this is a little of a tochejoe rogan put on instagram a few days into the story. one of the things spotify want to do that i agree with is that at the beginning of these controversial podcast, specifically one is about covid, is to put a disclaimer and say that you should speak with your physician and that these people and opinions they express are contrary to the opinions of the consensus of experts. which i think is very important. sure, have that on there, i am very happy with that. also, i think if there is anything that i have done that i could do better, is have more experts with differing opinions right after i have the controversial oi'ies. i would most certainly be open to doing that. is that good enough for you? i have to correct a bit of the disinformation we have heard. joe rogan is not a liberal, he voted for bernie sanders and promotes marijuana. he is to the left of the majority of the american people. a lot of the people he has on our people who were very respected in the medicalfield until they fell foul of the reigning orthodoxy about covid. you know, what you have in the mainstream media is people who are redefining what science is and what the scientific method is. to me, you cannot change when they are changing their minds from week to week. let me give you an example, people who said that cloth masks don't work two years ago, had their accounts removed from social media. now it is the consensus of experts, because that is how science works. you float ideas, question them and then change your mind. and that is what has been under the definition of disinformation, literary science has been legislated out of social media. isn't the point that there is information being shared byjoe rogan�*s podcast which he doesn't label or challenge in any way as not being backed up by the current evidence that is available. that is not helpful, is it? what does that even mean, he is an entertainer, he is giving an alternative point of view in the entire mainstream liberal media is giving the same view that gets disproven every week. that is interesting, you are comfortable with the idea that him as an entertainer is talking with the doctor who is out of sync with current scientific evidence and if they are saying things not backed up by evidence, that is why? a lot of them have been proven to be right over time. nobody is acknowledge that all of these things that we were told were true are no longer true. the science as we know, develops. i would like to say this is about science or politics, it is about class. the liberal mainstream media, like the democratic party is talking to the pyjama sets, white collar types who can work from home. they are not going to him for medical advice, they want to hear how other people think. there are two per separate points, there isjoe rogan speaking very effectively to a section of americans you don't feel is catered to by other sections of the media, then there is the other issue, how does he handle people coming onto his podcast and saying things that are not rooted in available sign to give evidence? how come nobody is asking cnn that? we do ask them those questions. marianna spring, how do you assess when something can be stated as categorically wrong or something stated as being unknown? often what we find his comments can be made that are misleading, for example, or something that is partly true, will be then misused to propagate something false. there have been a number of false claims about fertility, suggesting the vaccine will make you infertile, when there is a total lack of scientific evidence. all kinds of doctors and experts on this topic say they don't understand by what biological mechanism that could happen. we often find there is a lack of evidence to back up some things and then something that is true in isolation will be used to push false claims about the vaccine, for example. we see that in discussions on podcast where people will go back and forth and try to understand someone else's perspective and it spirals. elizabeth, do you think technology companies, which is what they were initially like spotify are geared up to handle these editorial challenges? of course they should become a spotify isn't just _ a technology company, it is a media company. and that is what its employees have been asking since - the minute they signed the deal |with rogan, they said, let have| some editorial control. just like any other. company like the bbc and the washington post. i have got to exert some control on this programme because we are out of time. it has been fascinating talking to you, thank you very much. for me, and all of the media show team, goodbye. hello there. the rain is pushing southward, the snow is returning to the north. with a real risk of some quite significant snow through the remainder of the night and the start of sunday. our weather front slowly meandering south bringing that milder, wetter and windier weather. quite a contrast as we go towards dawn. the prospect of several centimetres of snow piling up over the hills of scotland and even a few centimetres at lower levels, blowing around in those strong to gale force winds. of course with that, temperatures close to freezing as well. blizzards in places, in contrast, the rain is quite heavy, pushing its way further southwards across england and wales with a relatively mild in contrast, in fact, temperatures more akin to what they would be in the daytime at this time of year. so we've got that north, south split during the morning good morning. welcome to breakfast with luxmy gopal and ben thompson. our headlines today: as the queen marks 70 years on the throne, she expresses her wish for camilla to be queen consort when charles becomes king. and i'm here at sandringham, where the queen made that surprise intervention, a significant development as we now know that camilla will be queen when charles becomes king. a date is set for prince andrew to give evidence under oath as he fights the ongoing civil sex assault case against him. new recruits to the prime minister's top team, but will it be enough to steady the ship following a series of resignations?