Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning 20240702

good morning. we begin this hour with a look at one of the most influential and controversial figures in the world today, elon musk. it was just over a year ago the spacex and tesla ceo completed his acquisition of twitter. since then, he's had no shortage of battles, we spoke about it with walter isaacson, his biographer. >> talk about writing at elon musk during a volatile time of his life publicly. talk about the challenges and awards as an author you got out of that. >> first of all, he has been volatile his whole life. as a kid, 2018, he's going just as crazy at times as you see him in the past couple of years. when i started this book, when we first started talking about it, he was the guy bringing us into electric vehicles and the only person who could send people into orbit in the u.s. i thought, good technology story. then a year into my reporting, he is secretly buying up twitter, going to hawaii in a two- to three-night binge and deciding to take it over. it became a hell of a lot more of a roller coaster ride then. the dark strands in him, as well as the competent strands, are tightly woven together. >> yeah. let's talk about that. from your book, there appears to be two different types of elon. >> absolutely. >> for instance, when he made his decision on twitter, it was after he played some video game all night and just decided on a whim he was going to buy twitter. talk about that. you have that guy contrasting with, i don't know, the thomas edison of our time, or maybe the steve jobs, whomever. talk about how those actually are sort of woven together in his character. >> you know, that's a great question. he has so many personally, almost like multiple personalities. it's a bit like his father, whom he doesn't speak to now, but his father is a jekyll and hyde and sometimes goes very dark. it happens to elon, too. he'll go from very giddy, engineer mode, and suddenly, the clouds come. the amazing thing is after he's gone dark and been demon-like and very tough on people, he'll snap out of it. i ask, "what was that about?" he hardly remembers it. dealing with elon musk, i'll say, there are many elon musks in this book. >> listen, we could say the same thing about donald trump. i mean, the donald trump we knew. there are so many donald trumps, too. the thing musk and donald trump share are their fathers. now, donald trump has never said that, but if you spend time around him, you realize, if not terrorized by the memory of his father, his father hangs over him every day. these two guys, trump and musk, are a lot alike, and they both seemingly are haunted by emotionally abusive at the very least fathers. >> absolutely. one of the rules of a biographer of a powerful person, especially a guy, is that sometimes it's all about dad. it's true whether it's, you know, anybody i've written about. my very first book, i remember when you first started the show, was albert einstein. you were kind enough to have me on way back then. you know, einstein had a tough childhood, too, growing up jewish in germany with a father who has gone bankrupt. you know, i had a pretty easygoing childhood in new orleans, which is why i'll never shoot rockets to mars, but people like obama writes in his memoirs, every great man, i think, he says, is either driven to live up to the expectations of his father or live down the sins of his father. boy, with musk, you have a dark father who is still jangling in his head. >> walter, what surprised you the most about time you spent with him and what you learned about him? any preconceived assumptions that were blown to bits or anything you want to share on a personal level that you were sort of struck by? >> yeah, there are a couple things. some good things, for example. i was somewhat surprised by the intensity of his engineering focus. you'll see in the book sort of episode after episode of him figuring out why there's a methane leak, or let's go to stainless steel for the cyber truck. i thought he had delegated all that to people, but, no, that's his best mode, is engineering. you know, what surprised me is the messiness of his interpersonal life, his inability to deal with emotional things. the problems he has with the mothers of his children, whether it's his first wife or grimes or zillis, and this is a problem of buying twitter. it is different than making battery cells or rocket engines. he said, this is an engineering company. i'm thinking, no, it's not. it is a human emotion company that's trying to attract a good advertising environment. that's why i think twitter was not a great idea. >> well, and let's go to something else that you discuss that i think you said elon musk and those around him think, he may be on the spectrum. he may have aspergers. it's just the touch. they'll say things, and they don't mean to be difficult. they don't mean to be rude. they don't mean to be this way or that way, but there's a disconnect emotionally. sometimes they have to read books to learn about certain human interactions. there are so many things he does that doesn't make sense, and it could be because he's on the spectrum. if you're on the spectrum, the worst thing for you to buy is twitter. you're right, it's not about engineering. it's not reasonable. it's not rational. it's everything -- >> not logical. >> -- about touch. >> you're right. he talks about, jokes about, is opening about being aspergers. as you know, and i know, too, if you're on the autism spectrum, there are many variations of it. he shows many of them, but it's not one thing. in his particular case, having empathy and emotional relationships, that's not something that's encoded into him or that he does. he says he tried to learn it, just as you said, joe, by reading books, but it's not -- he's not good at that. it makes him a jerk. there is a technical term that begins with "a" they say sometimes. but it is partly because he lacks that feel for empathy which is a real downside, especially if you're going to buy a social network. >> so, walter, let's talk about -- congrats on the book. >> thank you, john. >> -- his approach to what's happening in ukraine. >> mm-hmm. >> there's been some confusion as to what exactly he ordered with the starlink communication satellites. there are times when he on twitter, x, whatever we're going to call it now, regurgitated what seems like kremlin talking points. how is he thinking about this conflict? >> you know, he has a sort of savior mentality. when the invasion first happens, russia invades ukraine, it's amazing, all the satellites get knocked out except for starlink, his satellite thing. you have to ask, why is his the only one that is working? as a way, he sends 200, then 1,000 starlinks so the ukrainian military can operate and have all the text messages between him and vice minister federov about how they would have been totally blown away at the beginning if they hadn't had starlink. however, there's a scene in the book when i'm at my -- i spent a week with him, and i'm back in new orleans at my old high school watching a football game with jonathan martin. my phone keeps going off. it was the night that the ukrainians were doing a sneak attack on the russian fleet. he told me he wasn't allowing starlink to enable that. i got it slightly wrong. i thought he made the decision that night, but he said, no, previously, they had geofenced off crimea but didn't tell the ukrainians that so they thought it was working there. that night, they're sending him all these text messages, which are in the book, of saying, "you've got to let us use it in this fight against the russian fleet," and he doesn't. he says no. he realizes he has too much power. i said, have you talked to jake sullivan, to general milley? that's when he decides he's going to sell some of these to the u.s. military and let the military, the u.s. government, determine how they're used. >> walter, as you know, there's been some controversy with musk putting certain people back on twitter, now called x. in the civil rights community, many of us raised questions, including the antidefamation league he's now threatening to sue, saying they hurt some of his advertising dollars. is it him being on the spectrum and part of that bipolar, if i can use that term, kind of nature, or more than bipolar, multiple polar, or is this guy a guy that foments division, even hate? how do we make of this guy? he is literally reinstating people who have been offensive to people of color, to women and others, back on x or twitter. >> yes. it's a complex issue in which i don't particularly agree with him on things. i certainly think he's wrong to be attacking the adl, because that's not the problem he has with twitter. the problem he has with advertisers and they don't like being in an environment you just described, that's toxic, that has people in it that way. advertisers backed off. it's not the fault of the adl. but you have to look at this balance that we've talked about so many times on this show, about how much of the aperture do you open to more dissenting speech, and how much do you try to make it safe and prevent misinformation or hateful speech on? he definitely not only opened it to more speech of people who are on the fringe and people who can be toxic at times, he's even sometimes engaged with them. so i think he started off saying, we should open it up to more free speech, but freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom of reach. we shouldn't amplify those who are the haters. i hope, eventually, linda yaccarino, who he got to be ceo of x, and himself, that they'll go back to saying, we've got to not amplify people who are putting up really toxic and hateful things. >> yeah. walter, i know you have to go. i have so many questions. >> call me up. >> we have to have him back. >> i'll call ya up. i wanted you to compare steve jobs to elon musk, but i think in the little time we have left, i'm going to ask you, instead, you've been around him a couple years. incredible access to elon musk. what is the why? i mean, we all know what he does. we know you -- but what is the why? what gets him out of bed? what drives him? what drove him from his beginning? >> you know, when you have demons in your head, sometimes you turn them into drives. he has a bit of a hero complex. he said he read comic books as a kid over and over again, and they were weird, these heros. they were trying to save the world, but they wore their underpants on the outside. at least they were trying to save the world. >> yeah. >> over and over again, he'd tell me, i'm trying to get humanity to mars. i'm trying to get us to sustainable energy. i'm trying to make a.i. safe. i thought that was sort of the things you pontificate on podcasts and pep talks, but i do think that's the main thing that drives him. up next, a revealing discussion about the state of the american dream. 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[ laughter ] >> oh, what an idiot. oh, are we on? the american dream is dead. a huckster from queens can suck in business, declare bankruptcy 87 times, piss through $400 million of his father's money in real dollars today, and still get elected president of the united states, and still be walking around free after stealing nuclear secrets. if that is not the american dream, my friend, i don't know what is. to talk about all that and much more, let's bring in senior writer at "the new york times," pulitzer prize winner,author of "ours was the shining future, the story of the american dream." i will tell you, the opinion page editor emeritus just wrote a book on this, jerry baker. >> yes. >> you and jerry would agree that the american dream is -- i take exception with both of you. >> right. >> but you look at the right, look at the left, and you say, you know, the right got a lot of things right that we in the press didn't understand, and the left got a lot of things right, but they also got a lot of things wrong. you talk about how their miscalculations on policy have led to the destruction, you believe, of the american dream. >> at least the decline of it. i think we have to do things to reinvigorate it. we can, but we're not doing them. >> first of all, what did conservatives get right and progressives get wrong? >> if you look at the 1960s, one of the things that was fascinating to me writing the book is how the mistakes of the left in the early 1960s, you see the beginning of the mistakes the left is making today. which is, it is incredibly dismissive of a lot of views that working class people have, moderate views. back then, it was things like crime. in the early '60s, crime really was rising, yet you look at liberal publications and they were putting crime in quotes. the 1968 campaign -- >> by the way, they're still doing that. go ahead. >> 1968 campaign, mccarthy refuses to say "law and order." you contrast him with bobby kennedy, not junior, who says, "progressives need to talk about crime. it's a serious concern for all kinds of people." bobby was a progressive on economics and was the most popular white politician in black america, and he talked clearly about why it was so important. >> bobby, and it's what i loved about him so much, is he talked about crime, quote, law and order, however you want to put it, but also talked about justice. >> in every speech, did both. >> he did both. he gave the same speeches, whether talking to a white crowd in the suburb or a black crowd in an inner city, gave the same speech. >> so what the democratic party basically left that model behind, and it moved toward a model where it is increasingly the upscale party. the economist, pickity, uses the braman left. it's interested in distribution, but it can be disdainful of the views of working class people on a range of things. the last five years, we've seen the democratic party lose ground with white voters and lose ground with asian and latina working class voters. >> what did the left get right and the right get wrong? >> well, the reagan revolution of the 1980s, the idea we're going to cut taxes and open up trade to the world, and we're going to let companies grow as large as they can grow, that reagan revolution, they said, this is going to make life better for everyone. this is going to bring prosperity for everyone. it hasn't. i mean, in 1980, the united states had a normal life expectancy for a rich country. today, the united states has the lowest life expectancy of any rich country. >> what's running that? >> i'm sorry? >> what is driving that? >> i think inequality plays a role. it's increased so much. a lot of people can't afford homes in the best school districts, can't afford the best health care. life expectancy for people who have college degrees is still doing just fine. >> right. >> that stagnation is driven by people who don't have college degrees. >> i have one more question, then i'll turn you over to everyone else. i don't mean to hog you here, but i'm interested by this. you have life expectancy going down, mental health problems rising, death and despair for certain segment of the population, and we talk about a lot of stuff, and this is just, i guess, because of my background and my beliefs, but i also think the right got it right when they talked about the importance of church, the importance of synagogues, the importance of community, the importance of faith, believing in something bigger than yourself, that brought people together. >> yes. >> i remember time and again, we'd be in sunday school class, and one person would say something crazy, and we'd look going, "no, no, let's go ahead and open up to luke. let's talk." but there was this community that would, if somebody was ready to stray, we'd pull them back in going, "listen, let's talk about that." we don't have that as much anymore. the rev can tell ya that. but that's something that the right has talked about for a long time, faith, faith, faith, faith. >> we have lost community in both the right and left ways. i agree with you about religion. we've also lost labor unions. we lost companies that cared about the cities you were in. you tend toward optimism with the american experiment, and i actually do, too. i think the solution to a lot of our problems involves political organizing and actually having our political system improve the living standards for most americans, rather than being distracted by all this junk we're surrounded by now. >> david, let's talk about this idea of the american dream and earning more than your parents. 1940, 92% of people earned more that be their parents. there was always this expectation that the next generation will do better than the last. that's not necessarily true anymore. how did we get to that place? also, it kind of speaks to the larger malaise among young people in this country, about where their lives are headed. what all goes into that? >> as you said, this economic research shows if you're born in 1940, you had a 92% chance of out-earning your parents. a lot were laid off. they grew up in an economy horribly racist, that had all kinds of problems. i'm not saying the america of the '50s or '60s is something we aspire to. we should leave it behind forever, but life was at least getting better. the black/white pay gap was shrinking. the black/white life expectancy gap was shrinking. then we moved to a model where people stopped caring about community. we had corporate executives who tried to make absolutely as much money as they can. both parties moved to the model where we opened up the u.s. company from trade around the world and thought that'd work out great for us, and it hasn't. it is interesting to see a lot of the other countries didn't open up trade in the same way we did. i just think we've lost sight. capitalism is the best system we have ever developed for lifting living standards, but not every form. >> before we go to rev, on trade, because i've had this same frustration as you. i'm for free trade, believe in free trade, but it has to be fair trade. >> yeah. >> i noticed it started with reagan, but i noticed that bill clinton, barack obama, every democrat that followed, sort of did the tony blair move. basically said, "we're all margaret thatcher now." they adopted reagan's beliefs. clinton adopted a free trade, almost unquestioning free trade, and it's continued through. even on taxes, you know, the democrats had a chance when they ran the house of representatives to pass a tax bill that got rid of carried interest, that got rid -- that raised the capital gains rate, which is just outrageously low. it means secretaries are paying a higher tax rate than people who are living off of moving paper around. >> yeah. >> democrats didn't do it. i'm not saying that the democrats are to blame, but it's become institutionalized now with both parties. >> in the same way, it is important to look at what the reagan revolution folks promised about what do we do for the economy. look what free trade people said about what it'd do. it'd benefit all americans, and it'll make china freer. >> david -- >> 0 for 2. >> -- i'm listening to you talk about robert kennedy sr., who had the courage to say things others weren't saying. how much of this is the leadership on the left and the right, goes by what they think is popular rather than what they think is right? i think what made dr. king different and others who would stand up -- i mean, king in the middle of the black power era said, "no, i believe in non-violence resistance." bobby kennedy would talk about justice but also policing. did we lose a sense of leadership in the country, where they would run and try to catch up with the parade rather than try to guide the parade to go the right way. >> yeah. one of the other fascinating things about dr. king is how much he talked about labor unions. i mean, labor unions built the civil rights movement through a. philip randolph and everything. >> yeah. >> what's tricky, you want people who can both inspire and move the population, and also people who respect the population. that's one of the things that really struck me when i went back and read about bobby kennedy and dug into the records on his campaign. in some ways, he tried to move the country, but he said, "i'm not going to be disdainful of your views. i'm not going to take your views on all these issues and say, if you have these views, you're ignorant." i think too much of our politics today takes a whole bunch of issues and says, "if you don't agree with us totally on this and that, this and that, it means you're ignorant." that's one of the big mistakes the democratic party has made and one of the reasons they struggle with working class voters. >> i'm excited to read this book because you use history to tell the economic story. you talk about dwight d. eisenhower, who i think is the most underrated president. how was he able to do what he was able to do in terms of building up american infrastructure, and that seems to have left the american political scene. no one has done it on such a scale since. >> i agree with you, dwight eisenhower might be the most underrated 20th century president. people think of him as a doddering president in the '50s at the end. he was cutting other forms of spending but realized that highways, research and development, and education, you can increase that spending while cutting other forms of spending. whether you're a small government conservative or big government progressive, one thing i'd urge people to do, don't just focus on the size of government, but is it focused on the future or not? we now have a government that is so much focused on the present and the past than the future. we have a government that is much, much less generous toward children than it is toward people our age and retirees, and that seems shortsighted. >> the new book is "hours was the shining future, the story of the american dream." this is a must-read book. david leonhardt, thank you so much for being here. coming up, how "the new york times" survived scandal, scorn, and the transformation of journalism. a new book tackles that topic. we'll speak to the author who is a reporter for "the times" straight ahead. new emergen-c crystals pop and fizz when you throw them back. and who doesn't love a good throwback? [sfx: video game] emergen-c crystals. my parents escaped vietnam during the vietnam war. they started a small restaurant just before i was born, which is where i pretty much grew up. and i learned what it takes to build a business and raise a family. joe biden and kamala harris are investing in businesses like ours. now we're hiring - and we just opened a new location. it's actually wonderful to see president biden really focusing on small businesses instead of major corporations. it wasn't like that before. i'm joe biden and i approve this message. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up, i've got symptom relief. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and the majority of people experienced long-lasting remission at one year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. the best advice i ever got was to invest with vanguard for my retirement. the second best? stay healthy enough to enjoy it. so i started preparing physically and financially. then you came along and made every mile worth it. hi mom. at vanguard you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. helping you prepare for today's longer retirement. that's the value of ownership. 2002, the george w. bush administration, you used a "new york times" article to defend, in part, its decision to invade iraq to destroy weapons of mass destruction. here's what dick cheney said when the report when first published. >> there is a story in "the new york times" this morning. this is -- and i want to tribute "the times" and not talk about intelligence sources, but it is public that, in fact, he has been seeking to acquire, and we have been able to intercept and prevent him from acquiring through this particular channel, the kinds of tubes that are necessary to build a centrifuge. the centrifuge is required to take low grade uranium and enrich it, which is what you need to build a bomb. >> two years later, "the times" said, quote, we found a number of instances in coverage that was not as rigorous as is should have been, and in some cases, controversial then and seems questionable now. this insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged. our next guest writes, "the times reporting on the iraq war is one of the many controversies the last four decades that helped shape the paper." let's bring in the national politics reporter for "the new york times," adam nagourney. "the times," the news of record survived scandal, scorn, and the transformation of journalism. adam, thank you so much for being with us. fascinating book. a great follow to "the trust." your book started the same way "the trust" started, at an event celebrating the departure of a salzburger from that position. but talk about "the times," not only how it survived some problems in the past, some scandals in the past, but how it's done something so few media outlets, especially newspapers, have done, it has thrived. it is stronger now than ever. how has that happened? >> yes, it is a fascinating story. when i first started writing this, i didn't know how the book would end. this is, you know, 2016. it ended in success. the paper has, through all these sort of problems, through losing two executive editors, through the iraq coverage, through jason blair, it's reinvented himself and is still profitable. it is a new newspaper now, and it's been a fascinating story to write about. >> we've had tumultuous times since 2016. yao can look at trump, at the metoo era, look at what happened during covid. there are so many stories, george floyd. there was disruption inside and outside of the newsroom. again, "the times" has made it through that. they've thrived. in large part, because of their new publisher and his transition document. i mean, he was in charge of figuring out how to transition "the times" from an old newspaper of record to a newspaper online. >> that's right. i'd include his father, arthur salzburger jr. he had a mixed record at first glance. he received the turmoil. the judith miller story you reported to. he had an understanding from the beginning of his tenure where the world was going. i think there were two reasons for that. the first is he began his career working as a wire service reporter for "the associated press," as i recall, so he never had the fealty to morning deadlines, the morning newspaper that people in my business tended to have of this generation. the second thing will sound flippant, but it's not, he was a "star trek" fan. he said, i don't care how people get the news, if it's beamed into their head, as long as they get it. it's a transformational way to think. there were a lot of things he did wrong, but he transformed the paper. his son understood how to push it into the next generation. it's been a remarkable change. >> remarkable change. judith miller put a.g. in charge of the transition. to come up with the document that says, what's future going to look like? we see the future. >> the newspaper is thriving. adam, you, of course, still work at the newspaper. give us a brief sense as to the challenges of reporting out and writing a book about your place of employment. >> yeah, it was challenging. i decided to end the book in 2016, the main narrative. there are a number of reasons for that. first, i had access to all these documents i don't think i would have now. second of all, i was able to interview people who were gone and, therefore, were more candid. third of all, i was not writing with, like, two exceptions, about people i work with, because that would have been difficult otherwise. i was writing history rather than what is going on now. it wasn't as difficult as it might have been. that said, it was a little bit challenging to sit down with the editors i'd worked with or knew going back years or years. they were difficult but interesting interviews. i'd spend hours and hours talking to them. very much aware a book like this could establish their legacy or help with their legacy. the other good part about it was, these guys and one woman were in the job for a reason. they were terrific editors. at the end of these long sessions, they'd often have ideas on how i could perceive or present chapters of the paper's history. it was getting edited in real time. >> i'm sure some of that was helpful. the new book is titled "the times". >> stressful. >> that, too. 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it. so we are often the only safe place where they're willing to talk about it and able to. >> reporter: 12 years ago, one of the children in the horses healing hearts program was tiffany van hill, who lost her mother to opioid addiction. >> i've always had a connection with horses. one day, i was at an aa meeting and someone was wearing horseback riding gear. she told me, if you're a child of an alcoholic or addict, we have this program for kids. we were there the very next day. >> reporter: when tiffany was 18, she graduated from the program and has volunteered in the seven years since, eager to give back to the community that supported her at such a critical time. >> i am a graduate. i just love the kids. i love having people that are like me around me and being able to help them through the challenges that they have in life. i mean, a child of an alcoholic, we go through have many things and not a lot of people understand them. to have someone that has that background and understanding, that it's okay not to be okay, and it's okay not being able to know what your parents are doing or not being able to control them. it's a different level of pressure taken off because they don't have to have the mask or think that everything is okay, because it's not. >> reporter: tiffany learned that being present and listening to these young people can do wonders for their emotional growth and sense of safety. >> it's just being there for them. letting them talk and tell their feelings without telling them how to feel. i feel everyone is trying to assume the best or the worst-case scenario and not let that kid speak for themselves. letting them really talk about what's going on in their life and say it without a filter is so big for them because their entire life is trying to keep things behind closed doors and not tell anyone what is going on. >> reporter: palm beach attorney dave aronberg is on the front of the crisis. he joined us to voice his support of initiatives like this one. >> if they're at risk of getting into substance abuse, this is a way of prevention. we can't arrest our way out of an opioid epidemic. you need high-quality, ethical treatment, and also prevention. this organization combines both. equine therapy is -- it works because horses have an innate ability to tell if something is wrong with you. even if you tried to fool them, they know. when you have young people who come out to this environment, it really affects them, and all in a positive way. if you're going to really do something about the opioid epidemic, it's got to be a holistic approach. you want something like equine therapy. because not every solution works for each person. >> reporter: while horses healing hearts isn't meant to be a cure all for those dealing with physical or mental trauma, the program is a much-needed resource. >> we just need more awareness of the issue. you know, i've found that when you talk to someone about some of these issues that the children go through, you know, when we say that our kids are sometimes behind the seat when their parents are doing drug deals, and the trafficker reaches in and tries to get their parent and they're just cowering behind the seat, trying to stay safe, people don't realize that happens. we need more awareness of how critical it is and how widespread it is, and we need more people to step up. "morning joe" chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell with that report. up next, emmy-award winning actor, writer, and comedian, bob odenkirk, joins us along with his daughter to discuss their recent joint project. >> hello. welcome. what a pleasure it is to have you. i'm going to call you skylar, if that's okay. it's a lovely name. reminds me of a big, beautiful sky. he told me how lucky he was, prior to recent, unfortunate events. clearly his taste in women is his same as his taste in lawyers, only the very best with just the right amount of dirty. that's a joke! that's a joke. >> actor bob odenkirk is perhaps best known for his role as saul goodman in "breaking bad" and "better call saul," but there is perhaps a lesser-known side to bob, that of poet. when bob's kids were growing up, he started writing poems that became part of a family book. now, he and his daughter, erin, are sharing some of them in their new children's poetry book entitled "zilot and other important rhymes." the book's author, emmy award winning writer, actor, comedian, bob odenkirk, joins us along with the illustrator and bob's daughter, erin odenkirk. good to have you both on the show. i really couldn't wait for this. what is a zilot? >> it's a blanket port. you've called it an indoor fort or a blanket fort your whole life. you didn't know there was a word for it. we called it, and my son called it a zilot one day, and we thought -- >> pretty good word. >> that's a nice word. it has some zing to it, you know? >> i like it. >> it became -- we wrote these poems when we'd do our reading time. we would write a poem. i knew that some of them, they're just a mess, most of them. if you write a poem with a 4-year-old, it's not going to come out. >> what was reading time? >> before bed, we'd read four, five books, maybe more, a lot every night and before naptime, as well. >> dr. seuss, silverstein. >> all the greats. >> we'd whip out this book, we'd write poems, nonsense and kind of good. >> some of them. >> so what's it like to work with your daughter? >> oh, it's the greatest. just the greatest. my son also wrote some of the poems, but erin did the drawings. she's been an art student her whole life. she attended pratt institute here in new york. >> wow. >> got better and better. that's our dog, olive, right there. you know, this was during the pandemic. we decided to get to work and rewrite these poems and make them better and for her to make some drawings. it came out so much greater than i could have imagined and hoped for. she's just gotten excellent over the years because she's a very serious person. >> well, erin -- >> i wonder why. >> -- the daughter of an artist and mother of an artist, i have major respect. i'm wondering what this process was like for you and seeing the finished product, and also what it was like to work with your dad and the rest of the family. >> yeah, it was great. i mean, we're all very serious. we take ourselves very seriously and take comedy very seriously. it was both fun and intense. and it was very rewarding. it was rewarding the end of every night to walk into the living room with some art, show my dad, talk about it and what could be changed, and get that respect from an artist and a person who i respected back. >> aw. >> it was just so fun. >> bob, give us a sense as to what we should expect beyond a new word for a blanket fort. tell us more. >> thank you forpoems were writ kid. erin and her brother are two years apart, and they were written with a 4-year-old, 5, 6, 7, 8, around those ages, so the subject matter is often food, cleaning up, chores, and other things the kids were delighted by. like my son loved the 99 cent store. with his little allowance that he got at the age of 7 and 8, he was able to buy things. so there's a poem about the 99 cent store. it's all stuff that kids in that age range are thinking about on a daily basis. but the kids want to write about silly things, and so the poems are about all kinds of fun, silly things. this one is called "gooby," about a little dog that goes crazy at night before bed and runs in circles, which a lot of kids have that same energy right before bed. so the subject matter and the funniness of it, the silliness, it all comes from little kids. >> erin, when you started drawing, sketch drawing or whatever, fooling around on a doodle pad i would imagine, how old were you? then how old were you when you realized what you were doing, that's what you wanted to be? >> interesting question. i must have always drawn. i think my first memories of it are being, like, 5 and of and drawing my cats on a saturday morning in the living room. but i -- it's hard to know that an artist is a real job that a real adult could have when you're young. it wasn't maybe until i was deciding what college i could go to, and i realized that there were art colleges that i was like, oh, maybe that's something i could actually do. this book really helped solidify that because all of a sudden, here are people taking my doodles kind of seriously and having due dates for them, edits for them. it's been a long process to come to consider myself an artist. >> you are for sure right now. the poetry book "zilot" and other important rhymes is out next tuesday, october 10th. bob and erin odenkirk, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you for having us. >> big fan of the show. thank you for what you do, all of you. >> thank you, guys. [coughing] copd hasn't been pretty. it's tough to breathe and tough to keep wondering if this is as good as it gets. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had. because with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open and prevents future flare-ups. and with one dose a day, trelegy improves lung function so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." we hope everyone had a happy thanksgiving. we're on tape this hour. we begin with a conversation about one of the most highly anticipated biographies of the year. senator mitt romney and his journey from republican standard bearer to perhaps the party's highest profile political outcast. >> no question, i don't really have a home in my party. i come from a tradition of, you know, ronald reagan and george herbert walker bush and george w. bush and john mccare. mccain. those are the people who shaped our party. anti-russia, anti-authoritarians, anti-kim jong-un. the character of our leaders shapes the country, and that's the party i've come from. i don't recognize that in the great majority of our party today. that, for me, is very troubling. >> republican senator mitt romney, who was the party's nominee for president in 2012, now says he doesn't have a place in today's gop. joining us now, staff writer at "the atlantic" mckay coppins, author of "romney: a reckoning," which officially goes on sale tomorrow. a lot of people talking about the book already. mckay, let's go through it. i do think his relationship with trump and how it progressed and digressed would be a great place to start. >> yeah, it's interesting. he actually first met donald trump in the '90s when he had this kind of strange trip to mar-a-lago that i write about in the book. at the time, he thought of him as not, you know, an especially serious person. he says he didn't think of him as a businessman. he thought of him as a celebrity and kind of a cartoon character. >> right. >> but over the years, you know, he went from seeing him as sort of this comic relief, side character in his life, not a real political figure, even when he accepted donald trump's endorsement during the 2012 republican primaries, sort of wrote it off as, you know, he was a weird celebrity that some people seemed to like. obviously, over the past ten years, he became more and more menacing and influential. as he took center stage in american politics, romney became more and more kind of concerned about him. obviously now seems him as one of the most destructive forces in the republican party and american life. >> it's quite a transformation. i think a lot of people have gone through it with donald trump. mckay, you write in the book about how romney says, "florida governor ron desantis has, quote, no warmth at all." he called newt gingrich a smug know it all and too pleased with himself. romney called ted cruz, quote, frightening, scary, and a demagogue. and former arkansas governor mike huckabee a, quote, caricature of a for-profit preacher. he described former louisiana governor jindal as a, quote, twit. and rick santorum as severe and strange. on rick perry, he said, quote, republicans must realize that we have to have someone who can complete a sentence. this is what romney had to say about former ohio governor john kasich. quote, lack of thoughtfulness, lack of attentiveness, ego. no wonder he and chris christie spark. why do you think he is speaking so candidly about so many in his -- i mean, some are searing. i would argue a lot of them, you know, kind of spot on, but go ahead. >> well, you know, some of those quotes are from his journals which he gave me early on in the process of writing the book. i later found out, without having read them himself, he hadn't reread them. so he handed over hundreds of pages of his private journals, including some pretty candid comments about members of his party. a lot of the comments are from interviews he gave me over the two years that we spent together. i mean, look, you know, as those quotes have kind of gotten out over the past week, some people have said, well, romney looks petty or he's consumed with his old resentments. i'll let people make that judgment for what's really at ps romney is enormously disappointed with the leaders of his party. he feels like this party that once stood for all these things that he believed in, democracy, the constitution, you know, family values, character, has been fully corrupted by donald trump, and all these people he wasn't respected have rallied around him. so while, you know, it's fair to question whether it was wise for him to make these comments, i think that at the root of them is a profound frustration with what his party has become, and seeing old friends and allies kind of rally around donald trump in a way he finds pretty disspiriting. >> mckay, congrats on the book. senator romney obviously retiring. tell us a little bit about his fears for the future for his republican party. a republican party that, right now, completely rallied around donald trump, who looks almost certain to be the nominee next year. also, mitch mcconnell, who though these days has turned into a trump critic, he has said in the past he'd vote for him again. he is also the one who decided not to rally votes to convict him in an impeachment which would have prevented trump from running again. where does romney see this going the next couple years? >> when he entered the senate in 2019, he had this sort ofretros could steer the party back to its sensible, recent past, right? he believed the republican caucus and senate needed a voice of sanity. that there was still a lot of good people in the party who were scared to speak up. over the next several years, and i was talking to him through a lot of this, he became more and more aware that that wasn't going to happen. he told me at one point that, you know, i thought that there were more of us and just a few of them, speaking of kind of the pro-trump, maga wing of the party. over time, i realized, oh, there's way more of them and only a few of us left. i think he is worried about the future of the party, to the point where i'm not sure, you know, how much he'll even continue to identify as a republican. >> mckay, in the excerpts, i've been struck by senator romney's honesty. he really seems to hold nothing back. candor about his colleagues that he still walks down the hall at the capitol and sees. even candor about why he was willing to attempt to become donald trump's secretary of state. he said, "i wanted to be president, and secretary of state was a pretty good backup." why do you think senator romney was so willing to bear all, even in ways that weren't necessarily flattering to him? >> this is where i think he deserves a lot of credit, right? when i started this process, i told him, "i want to write this book about you because i think your story is fascinating. i think you've seen a lot behind the scenes and you haven't told many of these stories, but i only want to do it if you're ready to be fully candid." to his credit, he was not only fully candid about what his party has become, he was candid about himself. we spoke a lot over our two years together about the various points in his career where he'd rationalize things in his self-interest of being the right thing to do. he said, all us in politics have this constant voice in our head saying, whatever the necessary to win the next election you've got to do because it's the best thing for the country, right? but that voice is what has led the republican party to compromise and talk itself into doing so many of the things it's done during the trump era. he approached this project in a spirit of introspection that i think is incredibly rare for a sitting senator or any politician still in office. i think that comes through in the book. >> do you think that -- >> the book is -- oh, go ahead. >> sorry. do you think january 6th propelled that? >> no question. i first started talking to him a couple months after january 6th, and i could tell that that moment had sort of, you know, caused him to reconsider not only what his party had become and what was happening in the country, but his own career and what brought us to this moment. i think that also informed our conversations. >> all right. the new book is entitled "romney: a reckoning." mckay coppins, thank you very much. congratulations on the book. coming up, our conversation with former secretary of state condoleezza rice on why one of the most important legacies of the george w. bush presidency now hangs in the balance. "morning joe" will be right back. the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico, from alaska to alabama. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved, because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. if you're looking for a medicare supplement insurance plan that's smart now... i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. as congressional leaders work to avoid a federal government shutdown by september 30th, that highly successful humanitarian program also hangs in the balance. president george w. bush's program, or the president's emergency plan for aids relief, it is set to expire. in a moment, we'll talk to former secretary of state condoleezza rice, who played a key role in the program's implementation. first, here the "morning joe" chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell reporting on president bush's goal to help save so many lives around the world. >> when president george w. bush became president, he felt, we have a moral responsibility as a nation with many, many resources to not have people who are going to suffer and die from a treatable and, in many respects, preventable disease, merely because of where they happen to live. >> reporter: before dr. anthony fauci was the face of the u.s. covid pandemic response, he was the architect of the pepfar program. the historic humanitarian initiative that supports nearly 65 million people with hiv treatment and testing. pepfar seeks to end hiv/aids as a public health threat by 2030. >> i put a plan together with a lot of help from the white house. the president said, "you know, this is great, but i want something even more transformative. i want you to think really, really big. let me worry about the money. you put the program together." on january 28th, 2003, the president announced the president's emergency plan to aids relief. >> reporter: the results were significant. aids-related deaths have declined 68% since their 2004 peak, and new hiv infections are down 42%. dr. fauci's long-time colleague served as the director of the africa cdc and is a critical leader of pepfar. >> first of all, it is because of the research and continuous funding of hiv over the years, our understanding of the virus has improved. we've proved from treating people with a cocktail of drugs to about one pill a day. that is remarkable. >> reporter: how are the resources aimed at those subsets of more vulnerable people? >> we have been so successful with the pepfar program, that the young people today, the 19 to 25 years, have not seen the ugly face of hiv. the number of new infections don't decrease significantly, then we have big problems on our hands going forward. the gains we have made, which are fragile, will be lost. >> reporter: pepfar's creation relied on an unlikely coalition of anti-abortion faith leaders and health workers who support abortion rights, as well as political leaders from both sides. this is the first reauthorization that has been challenged. >> president biden has hijacked the president's emergency plan for aids relief. what biden has done, he's now said that abortion promotion and performance is integrated with all of our hiv/aids work overseas. >> reporter: representative chris smith is accusing the program of indirectly funding abortions. this has angered lawmakers, alarmed advocates, and worried partners overseas. >> we must continue the funding and partnership with countries that we are already supporting. the expression of gratitude that we see in these countries, and carrying a baby in my hand, looking at them is everything. >> reporter: in an op-ed for "the washington post," former president george w. bush said to abandon our commitment now would forfeit two decades of unimaginable progress and raise further questions about the worth of america's word. >> my plea to the congress was to ask them to look at the history of pepfar. it came about with the inspiration and the will of a compassionately conservative republican president. if your fundamental core is the right to life and preserving the life of people and of children, unborn children, look at the children who will now, if you don't reauthorize pepfar, will die by the tens and hundreds of thousands. >> dr. dave campbell joins us now. dave, why wouldn't congress reauthorize this, and what will happen if they don't? >> the what will happen part is first. it will not end. the u.s. law will allow this program to continue. but it starts to be hobbled. there are a lot of programs that will be weakened as this happens, and you have to make appropriations to get the money out there for the programs to go on. this is the time when the anti-abortion arm of the congress have decided that they're too close. the pepfar or the biden administration is propping up abortion and kind of bringing together two different issues. pepfar does not support abortion. they do not provide funding for abortion. every single expert that i've spoken to confirms that. everybody that's written about it confirms it. the problem is, they've muddied the water. >> i know chris smith, like him a lot, worked with him. you know, through you, you and i talked about this a lot, i've read a lot about it, pepfar has nothing to do with abortion. >> no. >> or abortion rights. nothing at all. it is confounding. let's bring in secretary of state condoleezza rice, who served in the george w. bush administration. secretary rice, it's very interesting, we had nick kristof on, "new york times" columnist, and it was the 20th anniversary of iraq. what nick kristof said is, i want to talk about pepfar. because the bush administration, this is the most successful government program in my lifetime. 25 million lives saved. can you talk about how extraordinary this program is and how you all achieved that success? >> yes. well, i'm grateful to the american people who have supported this program for 20 years. we have to remember that president bush made an appeal to the american people, and i'll never forget that night, when he said, to whom much is given, much is expected. and so i think what we have to focus on here is the united states of america is at its best when it leads from power, which we have plenty of, but also principle and compassion. the 25 million lives that were saved, and we have to realize, it's not just the 25 million lives that were saved, think of all the orphans that were not created because their parents were saved. think about the mother-to-child transmission that was a part of this, that saved the lives of pregnant women who were giving birth to children. we have to realize what a terrible situation this was 20 years ago. president bush called us together in the oval office. some progress had been made in the ability to make anti-virals extend life. i remember he said, is it worth it to extend life even if you can't cure? i said, "mr. president, my mother died of breast cancer, but she died when i was 30, not when i was 15." extending life matters. i think the american people have reason to be proud of this, and i'm sorry it's gotten caught up in this political struggle. i hope the questions of those who are concerned can be answered. but this program has to be preserved. >> madam secretary, just to take people back to the time when you and president bush worked on it, i know i heard about it in my church. i heard about it in the christian community, the evangelical community. aids in africa went to the top of the list for a lot of evangelicals. they believed they had a duty as christians to help those suffering in africa. talk about how that impacted george w. bush and other members of the administration, that they felt like they had to do this because their faith demanded nothing less. >> absolutely. i'm a minister's daughter. a presbyterian minister's daughter. when there are hurting people in the world, your christian conviction is you have to do what you can to help. in fact, it'd been, in many ways, the faith-based and evangelical community that were the strongest advocates of this with president bush, when we first came into office. he talked about how much his friends in the christian community wanted us to do something about aids. it absolutely united people across delicious faiths. it united people across political lines. we shouldn't underestimate the degree to which this was said, from the bible, to whom much is given, much is expected. president bush actually quoted that in our last meeting in the oval office. america is at its best when it is acting in this compassionate way. but i think we're also at our best when acting on our faith. i felt very much that day that i was acting on my responsibility as national security adviser, but i was acting from a place of deep faith. you may remember in the op-ed that the president wrote, he mentioned and quoted mike gerson, one of the most faithful people that i know. after his death, we thought about the spirit of mike gerson as being at the center of this program. all the lives that have been saved, all the lives that will be saved, all the kids who won't be orphans, this is america at its best and we have to continue. >> what an extraordinary legacy for you and the president, but also for mike gerson. what an extraordinary legacy. we talk about the 25 million lives that have been saved, the 65, 70 million people who have been reached with health and assistance. let me close, madam secretary, we're so grateful for you to be here, because this is a critical issue. can you lay out for members of congress and people in the administration what's at stake here if this reauthorization doesn't pass. >> it's a program that's saved 25 milliones affected countless others. i would just ask that we also remember that, throughout africa and through much of the world, people look at this as america. they look at this as the american people. to not continue, to not make this program able to continue in its fullest way, that doesn't reflect well on the soul of america. i have to tell you, one of my fondest memories was standing in uganda uganda, listening to aids orphans who wouldn't be orphans, singing "god bless america." i hope people will remember that. >> let's hope so. former secretary of state condoleezza rice, thank you so much for being with us. we so greatly appreciate it. >> greatly appreciate it. >> dave, tell me, what was your takeaway from dr. fauci when he was talking about the importance of this program and what happens, if for some reason, congress ties this up and people take another issue that, it's not even entangled with pepfar. >> no. it's that it weakens a program that is saving so many lives, allowing so many babies to be born hiv free. it set up countries that helped during covid in the low and middle-income countries. the systems providing the medicine, one pill a day to villages, they use those systems, the community health systems. during covid, it was critical. it hurt a little bit, the approach with hiv and aids, that hurt everything, but what dr. fauci impressed upon me was that we have two different issues. we have babies born hiv free. for mothers who are hiv positive with simply providing them a little bit of medicine. >> that's extraordinary. >> yeah. then we have the ib flags, the combining of the problem on the anti-abortion side, almost as if they're not looking at both sides of this equation. if you want to save lives, save lives, and there is no connection anyhow. >> yeah. >> it's remarkable that people would try to kill a program that saves 25 million lives in the name of pro life. >> right. exactly. >> ridiculous. >> another way it just doesn't make any sense. "morning joe" chief medical correspondent dr. dave campbell, thank you very much for that report. we appreciate it. >> thank you, dave. up next, we speak to former california governor jerry brown, who is the subject of the new documentary entitled "the disruptor." "morning joe" is back in a moment. hi, i'm michael, i've lost 62 pounds on golo and i have kept it off. most of the weight that i gained was strictly in my belly which is a sign of insulin resistance. but since golo, that weight has completely gone away, as you can tell. thanks to golo and release, i've got my life and my health back. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and that means everything! ♪nothing is everything♪ now's the time. ask your doctor about skyrizi, the #1 dermatologist-prescribed biologic in psoriasis. learn how abbvie could help you save. after yale law school, i was just looking at books, falling asleep, so tedious. i walked down the stairs, and i saw my father. i could hear him. they were talking about who is going to run for governor. matt brown or the speaker. i found that very exciting. it was a vitality, an intensity, maybe like watching an exciting movie, but it wasn't a movie, it was a reality. that was imaginable for me to be a part of. >> the former four-term governor of california, jerry brown, talking about what inspired him to get into politics. his decades long political career is the subject of a pbs american masters documentary titled "jerry brown: the disruptor." jerry is with us now. also with us, the director, marina zenovich. marina, the challenge, the great challenge here is there is so much to tell. think about jerry brown talking about 1966. his dad loses to reagan in '70. he comes back and is the only democrat elected statewide. he's got his first career there, then his second career as mayor of oakland. third career as governor of california. absolutely remarkable political life. talk about how difficult that was to get all of that in one documentary. >> you could have made a milk about any segment of jerry's life that you just spoke about, but we wanted to chronicle the whole thing. because what a life. i mean, he was someone who lived how many lives between everything you listed, governor, mayor, running for president. he was a map ahead of his time, an intellectual thinker, and the impetus for the film was, what if you were lucky enough to have the same job at 72 you had at 36? >> in both cases, governor, you were a disruptor. you were a disruptor in your 30s, a disruptor in your 70s. just reading, looking back at all the things you did, it is -- i mean, not playing by the political rule book really does serve you and others if they do it well. talk about it. >> disruption is the preliminary step. you have to break things up to open them up for something different and better. at the end of trying to fight the status quo and the conventional wisdom, there were a lot of real solid achievements. climate, prison reform, education, and actually in tax fairness. it's a combination. i think disruptor captures part of that. it's a good image. but that paves the way for something even better. >> you know, you talk about climate, tax fairness, revitalization of oakland, but you can also talk about fiscal responsibility. i just want to read this part. you saw the governor's executive jet and began flying commercial. sent back home personal gifts to the governor's office, didn't live in the mansion. rents a $275 a month apartment. didn't have a chauffeur. you walked to work and drove a plymouth satellite. your fiscal restraint resulted in one of the biggest budget surpluses in state history, roughly $5 billion. this wasn't idealogically slanted to one side, it was just what made sense for the city, the state it a the time, right? >> it made sense. also, i was born in 1938 and went right into world war ii. my parents lived a relatively simple life, nice life, middle-class life. we didn't have the entertainment, the luxury we have today. i've been put off by too much, having too much or also displaying the wealth and power and what i'd call indulgence. i spent almost four years in a jesuit semiseminary, before tha vaet vatican, too. sweeping floors, cleaning out toilets. i had a different sensibility, a different compass as i came into government. then, of course, this was the time of the failed vietnam war. you know, millions of people died in vietnam for a crazy war. then we had nixon and watergate. all that led to a skepticism of the status quo. the custodians of what was was not impressed to me, and i wanted to move it aside. that was an important part of my motivation. >> governor brown, your public life has extended practically over 60 years across two american centuries, the 20th and 21st we're in now. i can recall when you were running for president in the new hampshire primary, and you were speaking of future problems then in the '70s. if you look at it today, what do you think? what would you tell the united states of america, the voting public population of america today, what are our two, three biggest problems right now and going forward? >> well, they're equal and big. first, we're living in an unsustainable way. the oil, the gas, the coal, we have to get off that. there's no question, that's the science. that is going to be extremely hard. it'll take bipartisan leadership and investment to help those who can't make the transition because of their low income. second, we have an infair society. tens of millions of people have families that are chaotic and don't have the security to live anywhere near a decent life. that income disparity affects blacks and latinos, but whites and ladies who didn't go to college, working a job, whose jobs have been taken to china or malaysia, some other place. we have the inherent conflict of a society that is unequal in the extreme. then we have the unsustainability that we're just playing with a climate in the way it's going to come back to bite us. the third one, we're on the brink of war. the war in ukraine could escalate to a third world war. we're getting ready to fight china. i mean, it's incredible, the way the pentagon sees their role. and there is no effort to quiet things down. under george bush, reagan, there were moves to quiet down the adversary. now, it's all about conflict. we're seeing a world where it is all against america and we have to fight back. well, we need more common sense, an understanding of what i call planetary realism. we're all on one planet, all 8 billion. we're threatened by virus, threatened by climate change, disruptive climate change, nuclear proliferation, by the risk of nuclear blunder, and now with a.i. and all the rest going on, we don't know how we're going to be taken. it's time to talk sense. now, they're fighting in washington over nonsense. the big issues are being ignored. worse now than when i ran in '76 and '92. >> governor, it's jen psaki. we've been feeling a little dark this morning after the republican debate last night. you've spent so much time in public service, serving twice as governor. are there politicians out there, maybe up and coming people, who give you hope, who you're watching for, who we should be paying more attention to? >> i'm generally not in the hope business. >> i tried. >> you know, i like what i'm doing. i've never been happier here on my ranch where my grandmother grew up. but when i look at the world, well, i'm chairman of the evolving scientists. we put out the doomsday clock. how close are we to extinction? 90 seconds is the metaphor. too close for comfort. yeah, i'm not going to give you any name of the great leader. i don't see it at this point. >> all right. i'm not in the hope business. let's save that quote. make sure you watch the documentary from pbs, "american masters, jerry brown: the disruptor," available to stream right now on pbs.org. we want to thank former california governor jerry brown, and we certainly want to thank director marina zenovich. thank you for bringing this story to us, marina. we greatly appreciate it. >> than x for having us. up next, we're joined by country music stars garth brooks and trisha yearwood to discuss their philanthropic work with habitat for humanity and the 2023 jimmy and rosalynn carter work project. 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>> well, we were invited to come do a day in new orleans after katrina, and it was the carter work project. i had -- i'm a georgia girl, so i had met the carters before, but i didn't really know them. you know, it's like they're royalty. we were struck by how down to earth and how hands-on they were. they were building. we were there to take a picture and hold a hammer, but we stayed the whole time. that's when our love for habitat was born. we were on every jimmy and rosalynn carter work project just about since then, and it's wonderful. so many great things about habitat and working with the carters. this is an amazing organization and why we keep coming back. >> garth, talk about, for people that haven't done it, my gosh, so many people have been involved through the years, talk about how there's such a sense of community around one of these projects and how you also almost instantly see the outcome of your work, helping other people. >> yeah, i think that's what it's all about. it is basically just people loving people right here. all walks of life, it doesn't matter. you come here. if you can swing a hammer, okay, and if you can't, there's other ways to volunteer, as well. this is putting someone else first. that's what the carters do. that's what habitat does for sure. it's neat to get to be a part of it. i'm not sure who is the head of it, other than the boss over here, but other than that, everybody kind of works side by you can hear the symphony of hammers behind us. most importantly it's bringing attention to the affordable housing. in many ways you talked about the number of direct families the carters have helped over the years, but their inspiration has allowed habitat to work with over 46 million people around the world to help them have safe, decent, affordable housing and now we have a fall out crisis. this week is all about bringing attention to affordable housing and helping people believe they can do something about that. >> trisha, you mentioned that you're a georgia girl and you had known the carters. >> reporter: -- or had met the carters several times, but when you meet a former president of the united states, there's a sense of awe from ordinary people and even though you're trisha, you're still an ordinary person. what was your reaction when you met jimmy carter to get to know him and speak with him? >> well, i think you never feel -- i don't think you ever feel like oh, we're buddies now. there was a particular moment in haiti, and the hotel we stayed in, the hotel we stayed in was this brick building, and at night we would sit down -- downstairs and kind of talk over the day and one night president carter wandered in. it was late and he sat down with us, and started telling stories, and it was amazing. it was an amazing evening, and then when we went upstairs, garth and i shut the door and we were, like, little school children. we were, like, that just happened. it was an amazing experience. every time we have had a chance to sit with the president and mrs. carter, we have felt like this is special and we need to enjoy every second because they are the example of service. they're the example of, you know, they served our country, but they continued since the presidency for many, many years to serve the world in the way that, you know, they all want to. they're the example of just how to be. >> garth, reverend al sharpton. i was blessed to have james brown, the godfather of soul as a father figure to me and he would get involved in certain things i would do and it had nothing to do with his celebrity. sometimes he would really be just about what he believed. talk about how the two of you have got so involved in this because it speaks to some of who you are, not your celebrity. it's not just going to another autograph signing or selfie place, but this is a statement about who you -- who the both of you are as people and what your concerns are. >> yeah. i don't think you ever forget that, right? first of all, you're very, very blessed to be a child of god even though i don't deserve it, an american citizen, and i myself, as a proud son of raymond and colleen brooks, anything after that is whatever we do with our life down here, so i feel lucky to get to -- like jonathan says, use the social credit to hopefully bring attention to habitat for humanity, but it's like somebody taking you on a journey. let me show you what love is, right? once they see habitat, you realize that we're all here selfishly for ourselves. this place makes you feel so good. it makes you feel so loved and it doesn't feel like we're so divided here. this campus, this week we're all one unit, and i can tell you this. i can't speak for you guys, but for me, i need that right now not only in this country, but in this world. >> jonathan, elise jordan here. you're from north carolina, so it's so awesome that you have this project in your home state, and i believe you're building 39 new homes total. what kind of fund-raising is necessary for a project of this scale? obviously i don't expect a specific figure, but how if other communities are interested in having habitat come to their communities, what kind of baseline fund-raising needs to be done? >> you know, the sad part is is housing has become so expensive in our country, and, you know, just three years ago a family making $53,000 could afford a typical home. today just three years later, it takes $100,000 to afford that same home, and that leaves out a huge swath of our income. so it does take public sector, private sector, and civil society coming together to make housing work. habitat serves in every state. we serve in 1,100 communities across the united states and seven countries. habitat is probably very close to wherever you are in the united states, but it does take -- the families buy the houses, but we need subsidy and we need the financing or the land. so when corporations and donors come together, that leverages those dollars and allows families to be able to purchase homes they otherwise could not afford, and their mortgage payments recycle back into the community so as they pay for their homes, they're helping the next family have their opportunity to build a well. >> habitat humanitarians, garth brooks and trisha yearwood, thank you so much, and you really captured the essence of jimmy and rosalynn carter. thank you so much for what you are doing. habitat for humanity ceo, jonathan retford, thank you as well. >> god bless you for your work. that does it for us this morning. "msnbc reports" picks. the coverage after a quick final break. " picks. the coverage after a quick final break. with comfort. quality. movement. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and shop our big holiday sale. president biden's thanksgiving message to america, we live in a great nation, and we need to come together. we'll have much

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