revolutionize it happen, civil war doesn't break out, the streets don't run with blood. life goes on. politics goes on in the criminal justice systems goes on. it's just the first time we've ever experienced this. >> that's true, the dog doesn't bark, there has never been a more heightened domestic terror threat in our country. and all of it is focused around political grievances, either originating from or amplified by donald trump. >> and can we just, for a moment, ruminate on the irony of donald trump? what he always wanted to be was respected in manhattan, as you said, ari. what he wanted to be with the celebrity. the people he wanted to be around were rappers. he wanted to hang around samuel jackson and golf with him. he hung around uncle loop. he wanted to be around hillary and bill clinton. he wanted them to come to his wedding. he wanted famous people. what he ended up with was a cult of the kind of people he has never respected. donald trump has never cared about the kind of working class blue collar white guy that adores him. he liked the fact that they would buy his stupid trump stakes. he liked being able to gift them into buying his video game and his book and pretending he could help them be rich. he liked the fact that they admired, that he had a trophy wife, and another one, and then another one. he liked the idea that those people were willing to buy his stuff. but the kind of pathos of donald trump is that he never actually achieved what he really wanted to be, which was a person that msnbc viewers would respect and admire. he wants to hang around hollywood. he wants hollywood to revere him. he wants to be respected and loved by the very people's voters loathe. he wants the woke people to love him. and all he's got now is a kind of twisted cult of personality that i think -- being president was his jam, but this ain't it. >> as we watch this motorcade head back to the airport, melissa redmon is with us, a former prosecutor in fulton county, georgia, now professor at the university of georgia school of law. thank you for being with us. in fulton county tonight. can you describe the practicalities of what the former president just went through? we were able to report in realtime that he had entered the jail, he had been arrested, he was there for in custody, and that he had been released. we were able to report that he has had his mugshot taken. we presume he has also had his fingerprints taken. can you describe the physical setting he would've been in and what that experience would have been like for him? >> the area where individuals were turning themselves in in the jail's support from the cells where people are held. so it's a lobby type area where he's brought in. he would be brought to a counter, his fingerprints would be taken, mugshot taken. someone behind the computer will input the bond to verify it's been posted. then updates and he's released. pretty standard process. it doesn't take very long at all. he is separate from what you would think of is the main part of the jail where those who are waiting for their turn in court would be held. so he's not in that area. >> you are there at the justice center in fulton county right now. it appears to us, looking at the camera shot that we have from outside, that it's a very controlled, very orderly environment, very secure environment, which is important for his safety and everyone else is. from where you have been today, what you have seen over the evening, is it a safe, orderly, well secured environment? how do they handle the media presents, protesters, et cetera? >> it is. the officials here are very used to high profile cases, high profile individuals. they bring in resources from other jurisdictions of necessary to make sure that the scene is secured. there are separate resources we can used to bring individuals in and out of the courthouse separate from the public interests. if someone wishes to go in and out the public entrance, they're welcome to do that. they don't have to. there is a way to get high-profile individuals in and out of the courthouse safely while not disrupting as much the business as usual, as if they were going in the -- >> f someone has prosecuted cases in fulton county, i'm not give you the same question i gave to dekalb county attorney robert james a few moments ago. i want to get your take on something that happened today in court filings, which i think was a surprise after one of the trump codefendants invoked his right to speedy trial, kenneth cheeseborough, fani willis said oh, you want to speedy trial? i'm ready to go. i could put all 19 of you in a courtroom and start your trial 60 days from today. on october 23rd, we can do all of you. that would be a very crowded courtroom and a very quick timeframe. but i just wanted your reaction to that in terms of how we should view that. what do you think the practical impact of that is today? >> i don't think anyone who is practicing in fulton county would be surprised. if you asked for a speedy trial you need to be ready to have that speedy trial. i think what we can take away is that the two and a half years that d.a. willis spent building this case, it wasn't built to present to the grand jury. she was building it to take the case to trial. she indicated that her press conference after the indictment, when she said she wanted to try this case within six months. i don't think logistically the case will be tried or they would've been tried in six months absent of speedy, but i think that was what she was indicating that she is ready. i was not surprised at all to see her respond, if you want to speedy trial, october it. is >> miss redmond, one more question about the practicalities. it's really helpful to have your practical experience, having prosecuted cases in this jurisdiction. we have all noted the fairly strict language that accompanied former president trump's bond agreement, restricting him from effectively menacing anybody involved in the case, other witnesses, codefendants, potential unindicted coconspirators. he just treated in his speech from messing with the case by intimidating or tampering with anyone. how is that practically enforced? we know that he's really flirted with that line of thought and his cost to the lot around all his criminal cases. how will that be adjudicated? and what do you expect there? >> the state will have to decide whether they want to file a motion to revoke his bond based on his violation of the conditions. we will be a hearing held in the judge will determine if by preponderance of evidence he's violated any of those conditions of bond. then the judge has to decide what to do about it. he can strengthen the conditions, banned them from social media altogether, or can try, but the attorneys would object to that. he can impose additional conditions. he can revoke his bond and having held in custody until his next court date, but practically speaking, with the overcrowding in fulton county jail, the idea that we really want to reserve someone in custody, this is not a violent offense. it would likely be a warning, i wouldn't say a slap on the wrist, it would likely be a warning, strengthening of bond conditions moving forward. >> melissa redmon, former georgia fulton county georgia prosecutor, really helpful impractical. thank you for sharing your insight with us from outside fulton county courthouse. really pre she ate it. lawrence o'donnell has joined us here in new york. lawrence, we are watching this motorcade just to recap for folks who may be joining us. the former president trump drove from bedminster to new york newark, he flew to newark to atlanta, he had a motorcade from the atlanta airport to the fulton county jail. we believe he was fingerprinted and we know he and his mugshot taken. he was released from custody, got back in the main motorcade, and the motorcade is approaching the atlanta airport to take you back to new jersey. >> the most important verdict to render right now tonight is the exhaustion of the trump voter in terms of protesting for donald trump. it's over. we had reason to have some concern when he announced his first arrest was coming in manhattan, and cement people there, begged people to come. and remember, within an hour's drive of manhattan, there are literally millions of trump voters, in new jersey, in new york, in long island, in connecticut, in manhattan alone there are tens of thousands of trump voters. they didn't show up. two dozen of them showed up. they were very peaceful -- >> will parking is hired. [laughter] >> i work walked around those people, totally harmless group. so it has gone all the way through this process, that is a very important thing to stop worrying about. this is not part of what is going to happen here. then the other thought, as you have all been discussing, is this question, as i've been staring at today, how he got to this. he got to this because of the agony of being donald trump. there's a thing that donald trump can't process, that every other adult has processed, that every other 12 year old at some point is processed, and that is coming in second. it happens. i've come in the last [laughter] it happens. and everybody process it. we have all known better students than us. we weave all know better riders announce. we've all known better athletes than us. when we live with it and we admire them if we are sane, but if you're donald trump it's the thing that must never be admitted. because he couldn't admit it he took himself into criminal conduct because he came in second. >> he said, after he won in 2016, then it was also rigged. he said when he won the republican primary, those were rigged. he said before he lost the 2020 election, that it would not matter what the election result was, because it had been rigged and stolen from him. yes, not wanting to come in second, but not wanting to be subject competition, not wanting to be subject to a competition viewed as a -- competition. wanting to be seen as somebody who unimpeachable-y winds regardless of what happens in the actual contest. that is what is so dangerous about it for democracy. it's not just that you can't handle losing its that you don't think you should be subject to the will of the people. >> his pathology is that he fears humiliation more than any other possible condition in life. therefore he creates more, he ends up creating more of it. there's nothing more humiliating than be forced to sit for a mugshot. that's where he got himself in his fear of humiliation that he thought losing an election with humiliating enough, and so he fought that because he just couldn't stand it and this is where he is. >> here's a question i've been trying to figure out as we watch this. we are watching this now because he negotiated for this to happen in december. >> primetime, listen 24 hours after the debate. >> here's why we're all here. >> so donald trump, i think, -- >> i'm here for falling fani willis. >> he is a theory about the value of attention, which is that the world of the newer tab lied in the 19 80s which is the people were -- not everyone grew up with newer tabloids. >> if they don't [laughter] >> eat things all attention is good attention. as long as you spell the name right, that's the way that the 2016 it's true it's clearly the case that all the attention paid to him wise competitive just knowing what you're saying here in terms of people hustling in those lights that are there, was that the sort of the usually see in an airport tarmac. we did think this is a possibility tonight. we don't know for sure if it was gonna happen, but it looks like trump may decide to make public remarks before he gets on his big private plane and flight back to new jersey. if he does that, we're not gonna take those remarks life, but we will cover them for their news worthiness as we said in the past there is a cost to us as a news organization of knowingly broadcasting untrue things. and given his previous remarks, we are almost sure he will speak on, we will not carry those remarks live. you can be mad about it. we can take. it will let you know what he says after he has made those remarks. but that's what we think is happening here, basically on the tarmac. >> can i add what to chris and lawrence were saying. yes, it was the attention, but it was a tension based on a lie. let's remember that marc barnett created on trump. don trump was a failed businessman who failed at doing atlantic city casinos, which is a really hard thing to do. >> failing at casinos his heart. >> yes, you inherit 300 and $17 million of the you go in the hole by $900 million, when you have to take you to see brothers in harriton's to make yourself hole, you're not a great businessman. because he's a person that renovated the skating rink. you know, i am manu do survivor, but for business. eddie castro in. that if you talk to people who are actually in the first season of the apprentice they'll say your trump tower is not super impressive. they didn't use the real conference room. they needed to build a proper one. donald trump is somebody, all of its artificial. carries here pop analogy, because it's like everything was a hipaa performance. they're saying that they're we x, but there are creator. the persona of him with the private jets. all of that belonged to nbc. he got a paycheck from the same place you get -- >> it's the truman. show >> it was all false. when he won in 2016, it wasn't good enough because he lost the popular vote. then, when he won, it wasn't good enough, because obama got more votes. he needed not just to win but to be better than obama, better than hillary clinton. he is a sociopath. he was raised in a sociopathic environment, and he is exhibiting what he was taught. >> in terms of what we were looking at, as i mentioned, there's a chance that former president trump was going to be speaking, making remarks before he got back on the plane. he is restricted by his bail conditions, in terms of what he can say. i'm just looking at here in terms of that language. in the terms of his agreement he is not allowed to communicate with witnesses or codefendants about the case except through his lawyers. his lawyers had to affirm on his behalf that he will, quote, make no direct or indirect threat of any nature against any codefendant, and there is a lot of them now, against any witness, against any unindicted coconspirator, against any victim -- were not exactly sure what victim eads in this case, or against the community, or any property in the community. he's not allowed to make direct or indirect threats of any nature against the community. this is something that he is bound by. a former fulton county prosecutor how that is adjudicated, for six years now, seven years now, we have been talking about trump being transgressive, violating norms that you wouldn't want people to violate in a healthy democracy, breaking the rules. the issue has always been, and so what? who's going to enforce these noel roll norms, these rules, these laws? we are now in a process, which is a landmark as a democracy for us, that he is not in control of how this adjudicated, that this is going to be decided by a court, with consequences for him, if, in fact, he violates those written terms of his bail. >> and two judges, i think, and he has a similar warning from judge chutkan in washington, d.c.. i'm not a lawyer but i think it eight years that we've been covering trump, but i think this idea of a different enforcer of the violation of the norm is super interesting. it remains to be seen, because arguably what he said in tucker carlson does violate a threat. there's a lot of passion and a lot of anger and hatred. now what's going to happen? to this reptilian sense of survival that he always uses to slink through, this may be the thing that catches up with him, as a criminal defendant. >> it's interesting, what do we see kenneth chesebro, a trump codefendant and fani willis said oh, you want to go by our november, how about october? trump's lawyers then immediately filed a request to sever trump's case from chesebro's case. under the principle of watch what they do know with the. say what does that tell us? what is that act tell us? trump wants his case to be delayed as long as possible. we saw that as well when he was arguing for his federal case to be argue two and a half years from now. he thought that would be a good trial date, so we can see by his actions, even if not his words, that what he wants most is for this to go as low as possible, because that gives him more options in terms of how to try to close off any potential consequences for himself. it's important for his adversaries, his legal adversaries, to no, or opposing counsel, to know, for the prosecutors who brought these charges, to know. what doesn't he want? he does want to go fast. if you want to discipline him in these cases, threaten to go fast. and we saw that already from judge chutkan in the federal case in d.c., where she said these are the terms under which you are being released. you must abide by these terms, and if you do not abide by these terms, this case will go faster. and anytime that you are going to violate, if we have any reason to believe you are violating these, it will move your trial date faster today. and remember, that's, mark remembered all the dates, our jacks mitt wants january. second murders letitia james her case was to go on october 2nd a court date for children 50 against trump ink. there's a potentially october 23rd he's got all the prosecutors want to go fast fast. because they all understand, it's the people, the people versus donald trump in this case. the people have the right to know whether the person they might elect president is a felon. >> i also think, just one note about what we just saw, it is weird that he's unloaded all. this >> always. so strange. there's no. and what a weird thing, the lawyer and his chief of staff are busy. >> where is walt nauta? >> those conditions, on what donald trump can say, are actually very narrowly tailored by the judges in the case. for example, the georgia condition, on giuliani, that we got yesterday, says that he's not allowed to communicate with codefendants about the facts in the case. those are the crucial worlds. about the facts in the case. as soon as that was made public, donald trump announces that he's having a fund-raiser for rudolph giuliani, where they will both appear and speak. there is nothing the judge has said that prevents them from speaking to each other. there is nothing the judge has said that prevents them from each saying to each other, i think you're not guilty. and then everyone says, i think you're not guilty. what they're prevented from doing, is saying, that really, the time you testified to the georgia legislature as soon as they do that now into the facts of the case. they're not allowed to say that. but there's a tremendous amount of communication that these conditions actually allow these codefendants to have with each other. as long as they're not talking about, quote, the facts of the case. >> one of the, and this is small, forgive me, one of the details that we knew would be a very human part of this booking process, is that the former president have to report his height and weight. that little water particle questions, like who they actually measure him? they put him on a scale? it's not like going to the veterinarian, they do not actually make you stand on the scale. but he's listed as a white male, his hair color is listed as a blond or strawberry. >> is that a nice way to say orange? >> blunder strawberry. his eye colors listed as blue. his height is listed as six foot three. and his weight is listed as one -- >> 75. >> to 15. >> six foot three, 2:15, the exact dimensions of lavar jackson the quarterback for the baltimore ravens. i love the control room as mark jackson. >> the resemblance is uncanny. if that we are trying to say. odd. >> i think look at our 20 minutes ago, i said the whole thing is a sham. the whole thing. up to the weight. i believed 24 hours ago, when we were together, i said, i bet he's not at the debate, because he's fasting. even if he fasted, there's no way, and mark meadows had to also self report is on, wait he clocked in at 2:40. trump is lighter than. meadows >> like an olympic -- >> not gonna front. >> absolutely. >> you do something that feels like a segment. it's ridiculous. >> do we know who entered the hair color? was that donald trump? was that illegal description of the hair color? >> i've never seen, in a government document, like buying a fishing license or something, you have to drop down menus. things to choose between. i bet strawberry is an option. hold that, i want us to bring into the conversation no, from fulton county jail in atlanta, greg bluestein. politics reporter through the atlanta journal-constitution. a national treasure at this point. mr. bluestein, i just have to ask, you president trump in his motorcade, have departed. where you have been today. and where you are right now. he has gotten back on the plane, at the atlanta airport, due to leave the. just have to ask you about what the scene has been like. they're what you think this moment means for atlanta? for fulton county? >> well, the scene was fraught, all day, rachel, a circus like atmosphere. hundreds of trump supporters. there's a handful of trump opponents here too. really, what it means for georgia, this was the site of some of donald trump's biggest setbacks. remember, 2020, of course, georgia's vote was based on nails in the coffin for trump's reelection campaign. in 2021, senators jon ossoff and raphael warnock beat that trump endorsed senate candidates in 2022. almost all of trump's endorsed candidates lost in statewide elections. so, now, you've got georgia, there is the home of not just his political defeats, also his biggest legal peril. to my, opinion of all these four cases. >> greg, in terms of what's happening in fulton county, and what is due to happen, obviously, trump today was at the fulton county jail. he may or may not be in person at his arraignment, which we believe will happen right after labor day, at least that's what fani willis has asked for the arraignment to happen. i just wonder, locally, in terms of the atmosphere, and the ongoing nature of this, as a spectacle in georgia. this is gonna cost a lot of money. it's gonna result in a lot of traffic tie ups. it's going to result in a lot of disruption at the justice center, where you are now. i wonder, if you can see what the horizon might look like, on that score for your community. >> yeah, there's significant pushback, especially among considering georgia, they're surprised. donald trump still dominates every poll of georgia republican voters. but, and it's a big but, there's a significant number of swing voters, of independent voters, who revolted against donald trump back in 2016, and that grew in 2020. those are the voters that will decide next year's election. there's gonna be push, we've already seen efforts from trump's allies to undermine fani willis's investigation. to file complaints against her, the state commission that really starts taking action in october. other efforts in congress. and here in the georgia capital. but fani willis and her team of prosecutors are confident, they're using their resources wisely. and they're still able, in her words, walk and chew gum at the same time. and prosecute other cases, we'll also handling the donald trump case. >> greg bluestein with the atlanta journal-constitution, greg, thank you. we're watching right now, this live shot as president trump's airplane taxes to get on the runway, and leave atlanta and bring him back to new jersey. you saw, a moment ago, we had the live shot that indicated he was gonna make some remarks to reporters. he did make some report remarks to reporters. it's what you think it might have been. he said, it's a sad day for america, but it's taken place here is a travesty of justice. i did nothing wrong. this is election interference. this is one instance, he said, but you have three other instances, its election interference. you should be able to challenge an election, i thought the election was a rigged election. i should have every right to do that. we did nothing wrong at all. we have every right, every single right, to challenge an election that we think is dishonest. we think it's very dishonest. >> quick remarks from the former president, not threatening any witnesses, in this case. >> those comments fit within the conditions of his bill. >> can i say something about the other republicans? the thing about the way most people, most humans who struggle with their weight, this isn't about how much -- >> really. everybody, right? every one of us. i mean, everyone. this is about the why. he has, and i try to find the last time he attacked chris christie over his way, whether you love chris christie or hate his guts, the most humanizing thing he's ever done is right in one of his books about his struggle with weight. and his decision to go ahead and do gastric bypass. and about his ongoing struggle with weight. so, it's not just that it's a lie. it's not just that it's a lie, borne out of all the things you guys talked about, mental illness. it's that it's an attack he's using right now on a primary opponent in the republican contest. >> a lot of people have noted, one of the important things about this georgia case, of all the for trump indictments, is that no federal pardon can save trump from a case that's brought under state law. that's true. no president trump no, any other republican president can wave a magic pardon wand and make this conviction, in this case, go away. that's true. also, he can't be rescued by a republican governor in georgia. are the republican governor brian can't, or any other republican governor that might succeed him. a lot of states, a governor can pardon someone, accused of, or convicted, of state crimes. in georgia, because a previous governor abuse, the governor longer has that power. so, that is one of the notable things about this prosecution, as compared to the other three that he's facing. a pardon is not going to save donald trump in georgia. however, knowing that, once this case was well underway, and pretty clearly, moving toward indictment, georgia republicans gave themselves a new power to make this case go away for donald trump, if they decide to. not a pardon power, something, in some ways, better. a power to remove the prosecutor from her job. this is a new law, signed an, maybe republican governor brian kemp. they moved up the start date of the law, so it actually goes into effect on october 1st this year. i have to say, with all due respect, all the press about this was totally credulous. oh, they say this isn't about fani willis. it must not be. it isn't at all about trump, they say it isn't. it's definitely just coincidence that georgia republicans are giving themselves this particular power right now for the first time in states history. well, now, it's coming to pass. trump is now indicted. trump is facing trial. in fulton county, georgia. and now, right on cue, georgia republicans have this new power they just gave themselves, and sure enough, a republican state senator in georgia has just announced that as soon as this new remove the prosecutor law goes into effect, in five weeks, on october 1st, he is going to start proceedings in the georgia legislature to use this new, law to use this new power, to remove fani willis from her job. does returning fani willis said today, she wants the trial of trump and his codefendants to start in eight weeks. to start on october 23rd. well, if republicans in the georgia legislature go through with what they say they are planning, that will mean, we'll be looking at a republican effort to remove fani willis from her job as prosecutor right as this thing could be going to trial. now, i should note, this new power to remove prosecutors is already being challenged in court in georgia. earlier this month, a bipartisan group of dea from different georgia counties filed a lawsuit, saying this is a power grab, it threatens the independence of the judiciary. the de-age who brought that lawsuit were also prescient about how it would be worked. how it would be used, cobb county district attorney's curtly's serving the, a sherrie boston, one of the prosecutors who brought the lawsuit. she is overtly warning, that pro trump republicans would use this law to try to take out fani willis, and and the trump prosecution. in fact, georgia republicans are already promising that that's what they were going to try to do, as of october 1st. as we watch the trump plane sit on the tarmac and get ready to take off the head back to new jersey, i want to bring another conversation, clark cutting him. who is a professor of law georgia state university, college of law professor cunningham, thanks very much for joining us tonight on this historic night, both in georgia and the united states. >> glad to be with you this evening. >> let me ask you about what i just described, my understanding, about sb 92. this new law that was signed by brian kemp in may. a, georgia republican senator is threatening, saying, that he plans as soon as that goes into effect in october, that he will use that new process to start proceedings, to get funny willis removed as prosecutor. did i describe that accurately? do you think they'll actually try to do it? >> oh, i think there definitely will be a complaint filed. perhaps more than one against district attorney willis. on october 1st or second. which is the date when the new prosecuting attorney qualifications commission start accepting complaints. we had an all-day conference here in georgia state law school last week. at the beginning i said, i think there's a hunter percent chance that's gonna happen. . the probability of that. >> if you were to be removed from her job by that process, and again, this is a process for which there is no president. it's a new power they've given themselves. so, it's never been used before. we can't say, this is a process that takes a, year this is a process that usually looks like this. this would be the first time it's ever been used, particularly, if they try right away on the day in which the laws is effective to start using it. from the way georgia law works, can you just tell us, if they're able to do, it if georgia republicans are able to remove volleyballs from her, job using this to power, who would replace her? >> the governor, governor kemp, would fill a vacancy. so, this seems to be, perhaps the, only way the trump allies could get rid of district attorney willis. there aren't enough votes to impeach or in the general assembly. and so on. however, i should say, what's being proposed would be a pretty serious misuse of this law. and i would hope that the new members of the commission would not themselves allow the commission to be used for political purposes. >> the ostensible purpose of the commission is to remove district attorneys who are not up to the job, or who are misusing the powers of their office. the kinds of examples that were used in the debate around the creation of this law, disperse journeys who were ineffective and prosecuting serious crimes and violent crimes. i had been wondering, as some of the rhetoric that trump and his allies are using to criticize fani willis, constantly talking about, really, mischaracterizing atlanta's violent crime rate. mischaracterizing things like the murder rate. in fulton county. might be laying the groundwork to try to characterize an attack on fani willis as being more within the bounds of the means by which they created this wall. >> well, the law specifies, particular reasons that undeterred returnee could be removed. what you've described, willful misconduct in office, would be one basis for removal. there is a very general phrase, conduct prejudicial to the administration of justice. which brings the office into disrepute. perhaps that's the one that they might be thinking of. let me say, i would expect, if the commission operated as one should expect it to do, that it would not interfere with the pending criminal case. if president trump believes he's the victim of -- prosecution, or selective prosecution, he can bring that up in court himself. i suspect, if this commission were operating properly, they would not consider that kind of a charge until there been an opportunity for it to be a process through a court case. >> clark cunningham, professor of law georgia state university college of law. thank you very much for attention, and your clarity. i really appreciate it, sir. as i mentioned, this is an important, weird wrinkle in this georgia prosecution. there are not very many people who've been following this in terms of what it could eventually do. georgia republicans are saying what they want to use it for already. >> i don't think i quite understand the process. they're gonna file a complaint. and then there's a commission, and the commission makes the decision? >> it's a brand-new law, never been used before. what it looks like on paper, i could walk you through it. how it's gonna work in progress, i don't know. >> who makes the decision? >> the commission makes the decision. for example, who appoints the commission? well, no democrats will be involved in appointing any members of the commission. in fact, the democrats, the minority party legislature, they asked her during the debate, with the minority party be allowed to make at least one appointment to this commission? the republican said no. they had no power in the legislature. that will be purely appointed by republicans. they can act on any timetable they want. as i, said there's no precedent for how to use this properly. which means there will be using, it's a new tool, they created for the purpose of removing prosecutors they've never used it before, they're going to, apparently, try to use it for the first time to take it funny will. >> the political atmosphere around, this actually takes us to florida. we've now seen ron desantis twice use a power that is inherit of the governor's power there. to remove prosecutors, two democratic prosecutors, he used the soros lines, he claimed was because they weren't prosecuting crime enough. but it is really just a show of force. against one prosecutor who had signed a memo that a lot of the a's around the country signed, saying i'm not gonna prosecute people for abortion. he got sacked. and then he's just a second prosecutor in the atlanta area, seemingly, for purely political reasons, just as a show of force to boost his own ambitions. the question now for camp, what would be the blow back? he must have larger ambitions. >> not good. >> he is somebody who survived. he survived a direct confrontation with donald trump. his state is leaning in the direction against the republican party. the former lieutenant governor as been all over tv, talking about the imminent death of the republican party in georgia. long term. because of the demographic changes. and because they can't win the college towns. and because fulton county is essentially where republican votes go to die. so, camp now has to think about this. on the one hand, if he is the administration in office when fani willis, who's prosecuting donald trump get sacked, in one sense, that's good for him. in the maga political universe. but that's not the universe that he's currently operating in. if you ever wants to compete with the glenn youngkin in 2028, and that sort of perhaps more normally filled primary, this would be the death of his political career. so, it's not clear to me what camp would want here. he's not been on the side of the big lie. >> whether that is gonna pull the trigger. >> his party, is, by the way, very arizona like. the camp and the georgia republican party are two very different entities. they are convention was a madhouse. they are as and far right, loony toonie, as the arizona republican party. so, he's operating in a party doesn't even fit into anymore. >> while they know is, donald trump publicly hates brian kemp. and it is reasonable to assume that brian kemp hates donald trump. so, how much does he want to help him get out of trouble in court? >> the other thing is, that state republican party, as you just mentioning, nicole, no one has succeeded more in the head to head direct electoral competition with trump challengers than the georgia slate. that worked him up and down. they, or at least at the state level, probably the least cowed by him. the commission, it nicely eludes the politics of. that it's not like they have to go, evansville have to go vote and then kemp's gonna have to sign something. the commission made him do it. you have a nice cut out for political accountability. >> that's exactly right. look at the voter suppression law. yes, they stood up against donald trump. and the big lie. they all will still go on the tv and defend the voter suppression laws. so, to your point, once the train is on the track, and it's on his way, i don't think you can trust kemp's hatred of donald trump. >> what matters, if you gain the thing all the way through, who do you end up with as a district attorney? and what we do, know who all the the assistant district attorneys are. they are all the people who are prosecuting donald trump. you only replace one person in an office with about 400 lawyers. you replace one. >> what you put on a new day, and the dea decides to make the case go away. >> that is harder than it is to say. it would be fascinating to see how that dea would walk into the courtroom, without any of the assistant d is supporting that the. make the pleadings, himself, or herself, -- >> it'll be like a sudden it live sketch. would there be mass resignations? >> this is fulton county, the politics in fulton county, and the politics in georgia, very different from the politics of the republican party in georgia. you one could imagine, mass resignations. how would then that replacement be able to operate in an environment where all of the people, as you said, that work in the office, work for prosecuting donald trump. i remember, this was a crime against the voters of georgia. so, what will they would essentially be saying, it violates these rules of office to defend the voters of georgia. it's not an easy place to be. it definitely would hurt camp. it regardless of the fact that he has a fingerprints on it. it would hurt the georgia republican party, which has now lost not one, but two, united states senate elections. trust and believe in a reelection campaign, -- you would then have democratic senators for the foreseeable future. because this is a state that has a history, it passed that runoff law. try to thwart black voters. you know black voters? did they voted more. they are like 95% registered. if kept does not believe there will be retribution against whatever his, apparently, he wants to run for senate. whenever his future ambitions, or kiss them goodbye if it happens. >> i would warn folks, don't count them out of trying. they've tried to gerrymander fulton county elections in a bunch of republicans. i think that you're very smart, and you're leading all of us to pay closer attention to the fact that, once this is underway, there are strong odds about how it will end. there's no guarantee. >> that puts an even brighter spotlight on the pace. on the speed. there's a lot of moving parts, here for example, there's four different criminal trials that only to unfold. plus the big quarter billion dollar civil case. plus the other civil cases. plus the political calendar. plus what his allies might try to do with this sort of system. that's just been set up in georgia. it's all the timeframes in the pace matters. >> pace, sorry, it's everything. paces everything. it's like, it's so strange. i remember when the first new york trial happened, the first new york indictment, the same week of the gwyneth paltrow verdict. >> you remember that? >> that was like the skiing indictment. >> that's being incident also took place in 2016. which was the year that donald trump allegedly committed his crime that he's now being prosecuted in new york. seven years ago, a guy, they bump into each other at a ski -- there's a civil trial over what happened. i remember looking at this and thinking, well, it all seems like it's taking a long time. and the donald trump context. but there's a civil trial on a ski hole that took seven years. and when you realize, you know, process itself is one of the ways that people with power wield the judicial system. you get as much process as you can afford. and justice delayed, justice tonight, which is a cliché. people that can't afford any process, sit in rikers, or they sit in that jail in fulton county, which is a really bad place in overcrowded. and there is huge, huge problems with that place. and they sit there and they sit there and they said there. they don't bail out. when you have a lot of, power you have a lot of money, you can delay, delay, delay, delay, delay. the question of, is justice done here, is a question of pace? >> the thing about pace is, you have to include the appeals process. so, there is no version of pace in which any one of these cases will be complete before years. when you get a guilty verdict, if you do, against donald trump, that's the day he stands on the courthouse steps and says, i'm going to appeal. that word appeal is going to involve 18 months, two years, maybe more. who knows. so, there is an illusion that there is something achievable with a guilty verdict in these trials. and it is just the beginning of the appeal. >> joyce vance is standing, by our friend joyce, who's been focusing on this issue of pace. in particular, with what fani willis filed with the court today, which what does intent, she inferred should be able to bring this case against all 19 defendants, 60 days from now, before the end of october. joyce, let me just ask you, to join this conversation we're having about the pace and what's practical. also give us your reflection on what fani willis today said about going to trial. so tim. >> it's fascinating, rachel. we've all had conversations for, weeks if not months, about this delay. fani willis said months before she brought this indictment, that it was imminent. and then there was a lot of delay, a very slow pace. now, we learn what was happening during those months. she was dotting her and crossing parties. she is ready to go to trial. we saw that today, when her response to the first defendant to ask for a speedy trial was to say, okay. let's go. that's something that doesn't happen all the time with prosecutors. typically, there is a luxury of time. you indict a, case there is a discovery process. prosecutors will continue to work, and prepare the case for trial. but she saw this coming, she clearly realize that this was a possibility with 19 defendants. and she use that intervening time to get herself completely ready to walk into a courtroom, just a couple of months from now. call the case, and be said to go to trial. the interesting thing about this, obviously, other defendants will try to sever. they won't want to go to trial as quickly. as kenneth chesebro, apparently does. his case will go forward, if not, in early october, than not too long thereafter. this will be the first opportunity for people in this country to see some of the evidence against donald trump and others, because this is georgia. where there are cameras in the courtroom. so, to the point of lawrence's comments about concerns about delay, and the risk that an appeal cannot be completed before the next election, which it cannot be, that is something that is an appellate lawyer, i've thought about a lot. the risk that donald trump's president could simply direct the justice department to refuse to defend the appeal. and the case would be over. even if that happens, here in georgia, some of the evidence will be shown to the public on television. people will see the witnesses. they will see their demeanor. depending on the outcome of that case, where there is a conviction, whether there is enough ferments on appeal, there's still that indelible, physical record of the testimony. >> joyce, in terms of the judges next actions in the fulton county case. you're describe a the decisions about severability, for example, whether the 19 defendants will be tried altogether, whether they split. if they'll be split. that's all decided by the judge. on what grounds does a judge decide whether or not defendants should be split into separate trials? is it totally up to the judge, as to who goes first? >> yeah, so, it's interesting. in georgia, that actually is a decision that prosecutors typically have a lot of input into. what's the sequence of cases. when there's a severance. here, we've got one defendant who wants his case tried early. he likely's first peg up. there's a rule in georgia that says, once a speedy trial act demand is made, if the case isn't tried within those two sessions of court, then that defendant is entitled to have his case dismissed. so, we can be certain that this case will go to trial on time. as for the grounds for severability, although there's one legal focus, it's generally viewed as a defendant needing to come in and show that there are some prejudice involved. some violation of his rights. if he's forced to go to trial with other defendants. the way that happens the most often, rachel, there is what prosecutors, what lawyers call a -- burden problem. it means you have a defendant who is going to go on and his evidence will prejudice people. >> joyce, thank you. very clarifying, as always. and valuable to have you here tonight. i want to slow us down just for a moment. if you've been doing the dishes and walking around doing, stuff this is an important moment. this is about to pay attention. it's also not something you want to rush into without thinking about it. over the past few, days we have seen a mugshots released as the 19 defendants in the fulton county case have started turning themselves in for booking. white house chief of staff, mark meadows, rudy giuliani, john eastman, one after the other. the fulton county sheriff had promised that former president trump would be treated like anybody else, he would get a fulton county mugshot like everyone else. well, just now, in the last few moments, the sheriff has released that mugshot for former president trump. so, i'm saying we should slow down here just for a second. this is serious stuff. for the nation, for who we are as a country. we have never before had a mugshot of a united states president, current or former. that we do. here it is. criminal defendant and former presid the presumed innocent until proven guilty. in accordance with the rule of law. for his sake and for hours. whatever you think of the, photo this is not something to take lightly. our constitutional public depends on the very basic concept of rule by law, not ruled by man. constitutional standard under which our president is still just a citizen. and all citizens have equal standing before one system of, law which applies equally to everyone. the rule of law, and health of our democracy, depends, not just on the conduct of this criminal case, but on our ability as citizens to take this with the heft that it needs. to look at this and see it as american citizens, who prize country above politics. and who, ourselves, prize the law, rather than the fame of anyone man. we have never been here before. we are forced to consider, an american president, as a suspected and indicted felon. but here we are. remarkable itself, we have three previous arrests and indictments of trump, and none of them produced a mugshot. fulton county decided to do it. that, itself, is a remarkable thing. >> it took us 234 years to get here. there is reason to believe it will take another 234 before we see another. mugshot of a former president of the united states. this is something that only lay donald trump was able to achieve with his presidency, to bring the presidency to this low point. >> he looks enraged. what i see there, there's a path was to that look. there's an angle to that look. donald trump has thrived on the anger of a certain demographic of americans, who've decided the country is leaning away from them. and what they think is important. not prioritizing them and the things they value and care about. he's embodying the. he's the avatar for the rage that he has traded off of, to become president in the first place. that is not the, you know, funny reality show star that americans elected in 2016. that's a sinister apparition that i'm seeing in front of me. >> he spent days rehearsing that post. that's the picture that he wanted. >> i think what's always remarkable, these moments, having once been in the republican party, i always look around, why did you do that. >> somebody here. >> what is, to us, all these things that is everything you've described. and both of you. on the right, for trump's base, this is what hope and change was to the obama base. this will become an iconic image of their leader. so, there are these moments that can illustrate the dramatic and violent breaking into of a country that he ushered in. i think this picture will be one of them. >> what joy is describing, what you described, as sinister. that was the word you used, the anger that she seeing there. you think that will be the touchstone of this for the right. in a way that makes them -- >> this picture mean something given to trump's base. again, i'm far enough away from it to not know exactly what it is. this picture will take on a totally different, potentially, a rational -- >> they're gonna sell t-shirts. first of, all the early posting pictures themselves, but the insignia photoshop as solidarity. this will be, you know, he's a political prisoner. he's our great hero. >> martyr. >> brought low by the terrible deep state. it is instantly iconic. why are we all, the mugshot has loomed so large over the fulton county proceedings. >> it's the only one. >> it's loomed so large. anticipation of the mugshot. when we're gonna see the mugshot? mugshot, when we have the mugshot? i think part of how to do with the equal justice under the law. as we do with the fact that the way that mugshots tend to work in news coverage, it's, like a lot of black and brown people who are like, locked up. and then thrown on the cover of the new york post of the evening news, one of a lot of the mugshot that we get. that we consume. and produce. in american media. there's something like, it feels like some sort of fitting, actual, you know, effectuating of equal justice under the law. that the highest, most powerful person, once in the country, has to do this as well. >> i can tell, you for me, when i moved back to new york, one of the most shots that sit with, me i still remember that he made five teenagers, my age, take a mugshot. that he wanted them, not just take a mugshot, he wanted them dead. >> stay with that. >> this is the central five, case the exonerated five. they were my age. as a teenager, living in new york, i've said it before, it's because i i did watch the apprentice. i despised donald trump. he, to me, signified the rich white guy in manhattan that absolutely hated and despised me. but hated and despised my cousins. my friends. everyone we knew. that called us wilding, just because we're in the park. that said we can't be free to walk around in the street, that's when patrick -- got killed by an off-duty police officer, he's no choir boy. he was literally an altar boy. giuliani said that. so, people like giuliani, and people like trump, persecuted black and brown people in new york. it's what they did for fun. it's what they did for pleasure. they enjoyed it. they enjoyed lording over people who had nothing. you had no million dollar lawyers. who couldn't change lawyers at the top of a hat. and get a different hip-hop lawyer in the next day when they're tired of one. who couldn't go to make their case on fox, or a newsmax, you had nothing, and who donald trump loaded his everything over. and still, people who look like them, put him in wraps longs. it was indignity, to me, that something i loved, a culture i loved, lionized that. to me, this is justice. the fact that manhattan didn't give him a shot, i thought was offensive. i thought that the feds, we know it looks like. the president of united states. okay, offensive. ever nelson to take them. this case, and i think fani willis is a hero, she's a national hero, because she, more than any other prosecutor in this country, and i respect jack smith, and i respect all the prosecutors that are doing this. she is the only one who said, these wealthy, powerful, privileged men and women are just american citizens. and when they break the law, they will take that picture. >> i have absolutely right. it's a fair criticism of everybody else. even when the sense of timing has felt unsatisfying, in terms of delay, perceived, allay reported the lay, by the washington post. fani willis opened the case the day that carolina reporter biden today, the washington post another importing on the tape in the. call she's the only person that has been the antidote to trump saying, don't believe your eyes. don't believe your ears. believe me. she saw it with our own eyes. she saw with her own ears. she starred investigating. >> a man. >> i think we can expect to see this photograph in a trump email money solicitation. before midnight. >> before the end -- of >> i mean, the overall feeling about, this right, it's a little bit of a rorschach test. as you described, in terms of how it feels, in terms of your personal experience. as a political figure, how it's going to feel, depending on your place in the ideological number line. absolutely. whether not your trump supporter, will determine a lot of how you feel. about this image. at the core, the question of how we react to this image comes down to, in terms of the health of the country, regardless of his individual fame, the question is whether you look at that and you, think that is a man who went wrong. this is the consequence of it. look at him being subjected to the criminal process. or, whether you look at that and, think this is the criminal process gone wrong. this is the criminal justice system being used for the kind of person a politician, a national political leader, who should never be subjected to. it must be a misuse of the criminal justice system against him. for every republican who says that they don't like trump's behavior, and they don't necessarily support him, and maybe they would even support of a visa nominee, but this criminal justice system has been weaponized against him. they are trying to make the national response to this moment, the letter. which is about making sure that we don't have criminal justice that applies to all citizens. and that is playing with fire, again, it's absolutely unrelated to trump's individual fame. but it's about whether or not you see the application of criminal justice system to his alleged behavior. as something that is important about him, or what you see it is something that is important about the system. in terms of who's gone wrong. in terms of what's been twisted, what's unusual. how have we got to this moment? that narrative is very, very contested, even by people in the so-called normal republican party right now. the >> you saw on the, stage the are some fireworks around funding for ukraine. around, i don't, know -- >> abortion restrictions. >> there were no fireworks. a rather not there was support trump. asa hutchinson, who was the last person to make the debate, the least amount of support, and was booed, they agreed perhaps more than anyone that they will support donald trump if he's the nominee. >> and that there's some sort of problem in the criminal justice system that needs to be addressed. >> correct. >> tim scott, not a fire breathing mega candidate, to have tim scott got up there and say, they won, i'm gonna fire merrick garland. i mean if i or kris wright. first of, all everybody gets their own attorney. also, that's weird. firing the fbi director, who's trump's appointee, okay, also little weird. the reason he asked pe

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