of me, like people won't recognize me. >> so, here is that mugshot. this is what giuliani was so incensed about, being photographed at a county jail and paraded in front of the press like a criminal. which is ironic -- part of what made rudy giuliani a national figure in the first place was his practice of parading people in front of the press like they were criminals. when giuliani was the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york in the 1980s, he re-popularized the concept of the perp walk. giuliani did not invent the practice of allowing the press to photograph interest, but, as a criminal law professor from loyola marymount university put it, mr. giuliani took that practice and made an art form out of it. and giuliani did not always make sure he had his facts right before doing so. >> wall street isn't used to the site of its best and brightest in handcuffs, being arrested or charged with insider trading. people like robert freeman, a partner at goldman sachs, timothy tabor a former vice president at kidder peabody, richard freeman, wigton, also of kidder peabody -- >> that last guy, richard wigton -- reportedly crying because of how shaken he was by the arrest. mr. giuliani thought the humiliation of being perp walked would make these guys just come clean. the problem is that just a few months after arresting just two of the people he perp walked, mr. giuliani had to draw withdraw the charges. he didn't have enough evidence to go to trial. not exactly one for contrition, giuliani promised the evidence he did have was just the tip of the iceberg in that even bigger charges were coming in record-breaking time. they never did. now, when giuliani first had these men arrested, he maintained that there was not anything out of the ordinary about his treatment of these men, which makes his statements today about the indignity of a public arrest so, shall we say, ironic. and then there is this. >> people like to say i am different. and the same rudy giuliani that took down the mafia, that made new york city the safest city in america, reduced crime more than any mayor in the history of any city anywhere. and i'm fighting for justice. >> it is true that the new york city crime rate went down in the 1990s. but that was part of a national trend. what mr. giuliani was really known for as mayor was a so-called zero tolerance policy toward crime, which meant racial profiling and the use of stop-and-frisk policing, with a police stop, detain and forcibly search citizens with little need for probable cause. the targets of all that were, typically, black and brown new yorkers, the overwhelming majority of whom were never actually charged with a crime. and now mr. giuliani, who is charged with a whole litany of felonies -- he has been arrested. and not only is he complaining about getting the very same treatment he meted out for decades, he is making a spectacle of it. this was giuliani's perp walk outside of the fulton county jail today after his arrest. the clutch of reporters and cameras was so thick you can hardly see the man. but here is the thing. giuliani left the jail in a car, and then presumably, he chose to stop just to create this circus. and then mr. giuliani led the press to a place called second chance bail bonds. all of this, a show, his show -- now, right now, half of trump's codefendant codefendants have been booked in fulton county jail. trump is set to surrender tomorrow evening. his remaining codefendants have until friday at noon to surrender, and two of them -- trump's former chief of staff, mark meadows, and his former lawyer at the doj, jeffrey clark -- they tried to get a federal court to stop d. a. fani willis from arresting them this week. but tonight, a judge denied those requests and, unless an appeals court weighs in, mark meadows and jeffrey clark are set to be arrested in fulton county. keep your eyes out for the mugshots. joining me now are mimi rocah, former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, now the district attorney for westchester county, and gwen keyes fleming, former district attorney for dekalb county. -- mimi and gwen, it's great to have you here. let me first get you thoughts on this late breaking news here, regarding the judge effectively giving meadows and clark the hand on their filing to delay this arrest. does that seem unusual to? and does that suggest anything about the broader case to have this moved into federal court? >> it doesn't seem unusual, and alex. in fact, it seems so normal that it seems almost like that's what is taking people by surprise. we are so used to seeing delay tactics work in various institutions that should be about accountability. and when we see the process working the way that it should, everyone is presumed innocent and everyone gets their trial, their day in court, their arguments, but it has to proceed. and the judges and the prosecutors and all the various cases are saying, no, no. there is no special treatment here. we are going ahead with this, the way we would for just about any other defendant. if anything, the allowing people to surrender and giving them the time to surrender was an accommodation, a n appropriate one, but beyond, we are proceedings. so, i think it's the normalcy of seeing the process actually working that is actually what is surprising. >> that's the unusual thing. here >> gwen keyes fleming, i've got to ask the judge who basically said, your case has no merit, mr. meadows, we are not going to delay your arrest until the same judge rules on his petition to have this thrown into federal court on monday. that -- do you think that this means that the idea that this case, the state case, goes to federal court, is a nonstarter? i mean, it is the same judge that is making the decision today that is going to be making the decision on monday. >> so, you are right. it is the same judge. and that is a factor of what i understand to be the federal rules related -- about related cases. but these are two different issues. judge jones ruled today, saying that basically, the state case would move forward, including the aspects of arrests of turning oneself in. so, this was a procedural ruling, if you will. the original -- the motions asked that the asked for the case be put on hold such that neither mr. meadows nor mr. clark would be arrested. and so, the judge clearly denied those requests, citing the law that the state case goes forward. what is happening on monday relates to whether the federal court should take jurisdiction of the entire case based on some defendants alleging that the actions that they are being charged with -- or the actions underlying the charges -- were part of their federal roles. and i think what you saw in the d. a.'s response today is a long description of how the acts in the indictment were outside the color of their federal roles. >> so, do you think -- i guess, reading into that, gwen keyes fleming, do you see any inherent sympathy the judge might have for the case the d. a. is making? or is it just, we are starting from scratch on monday, don't infer anything about the judges position vis-à-vis d. a. willis and mr. meadows today? >> well, i know he has gotten in trouble whenever i've inferred something a judge would do based on one order. so, i've learned over 17 years not to do that. i think this judge -- judge jones in particular -- is one who can separate the issues. and we will see him do that. we will hold the hearing that needs to be held on monday, and make a decision to act on both sides and present whatever -- choose to offer. >> and really quickly, gwen, if the judge decides to move this to federal court, that means he moves all of the indictments the federal court. is that right? >> that is my understanding. >> wow. >> now, there may be various motions to sever, or other things. i know one defendant filed a speedy trial demand in fulton county. and so that, obviously, will have an impact on whether all 19 will be tried within those speedy trial guidelines, or whether there will be other severances or breaking the case down into bite sized pieces. so, many of us who track georgia law are debating about this behind the scenes, and we are waiting to see what comes out of the hearing on monday as well as the speedy trial motion. >> i am sure that georgia legal circles are a twitter. mimi rocah, to gwen's point, kenneth chesebro, who is one of the co-defendants in this, and in many ways one of the architects of the fake electors plot, has filed for a speedy trial, which is the opposite position, we think, the former president would like to take, which is push this thing as far away from me as possible -- 2035 is not far enough. what is the meaningful impact of having one defendant say, let me get this done in october and the other saying, 2025? >> well, as gwen alluded to, and i am sure she is more familiar with how, under georgia law in particular this might play out -- but it is going to depend on whether -- first of all, whether that is granted at all. and i understand that georgia is more generous in terms of once a defendant makes a motion for a speedy trial, you get it. but what that means as to whether, then, he is severed off from the other defendants, or whether that means that groups of defendants, or all of them, go together -- i will say that, if he gets to go himself first, and alone, that is an advantage for the other defendants. because they get a preview of their case. >> of the case -- >> now, there aren't a lot of secrets in this case. there are not a lot of unknowns, i should say. but most defendants would like to see witnesses testify before they are testifying against them. so, i am not saying he is doing it for that reason. but it would, in fact, confer a strategic advantage. you have witnesses, than, who have testimony to be cross-examined with later. and nobody says the same thing exactly the same way twice. i mean, the important things, you hope that they do. but witnesses say things differently. and so that is something to think about strategically. it may not be anything that the d. a. can do anything about, but isn't an argument, i don't think, under georgia law for not giving a defendant a speedy trial. but it could prejudice the government. when >> gwen, when we talk about just the volume of codefendants in this -- there are, i believe, 18, and the former president -- the expectation has been that that number is going to get trimmed, whether maybe because kenneth chesebro's trial is one of, or someone flips. and i would love to get your thoughts on potentially moving some of these codefendants into the cooperating witness category. we were talking with andrew weissmann yesterday, and he said, this is the window when, if you are going to flip, you do it. now, i think we have the graphic of all the mugshots that we have an all the people who have been booked in this case. right? the question is, how -- will we know if someone is becoming a co-operator? are there external signs we should look for in terms of their the heavier, their meetings, their itineraries, if you will? >> i think there might be some signs. obviously, if a plea is entered, or a conditional plea is, that is something that would happen have to happen in open court. obviously, we talk a lot about how georgia allows cameras, unless the d. a. or defense team asked that the court be closed for some reason. usually, the plea is entered -- and the sentence -- is held until testimony is given and the witness has demonstrated the cooperation that they promised. so, there might be some outward signs. but the interesting thing is, at least in practice, many d. a. s when i defended files a speedy trial -- to get a reduced sentence to lesser charges or fewer charges. and so, that, at least, was the practice when i was d. a.. we will see how this d. a. handles it going forward. >> one more question. because we spent a long time talking about him at the beginning of the segment. rudy giuliani -- is out there on the steps talking about how this is -- fani willis is going to go down in history as having conducted one of the worst attacks on the american constitution when the case is dismissed, and that she has violated peoples first amendment right to abdicate the government -- to petition the government for grievances, like an election -- stolen -- this he have a case here? rudy giuliani is someone who has notoriously been -- i believe -- and the new york civil liberties union was again involved in 34 civil liberties lawsuits against rudy giuliani. now he's invoking the first amendment. do you see any potential -- to his defense? you >> know, this is not a legal defense. and he has a right to make any defense he wants in court. but it is, as you pointed out, just beyond ironic that this man, who is the head of the office that i was in, and was respected in some ways, is doing this tactic of attacking the prosecutor, and attacking -- again -- the process. not saying on the facts, this case is wrong. in fact, he's not doing that. he can't doing that. but he is going down into the dirt in a public defense, not a courtroom defense. >> yeah, a lot of the stuff we saw today designed seem designed to be just more weight in the court of public opinion as opposed to an actual court. mimi rocah and gwen keyes fleming, thank you both for your time tonight. there is still much, much more to come this evening, including what may have happened to the leader of the russian mercenary group who led the revolt against vladimir putin exactly two months ago and who might be behind it. but first, oath keepers -- stewart rhodes was convicted of seditious conspiracy in november for breaching the capitol. but today we learned that stewart rhodes might have had the support from people who want to protect the white house. that is next. >> so, if you have spent some time with special counsel jack smith's's recent court filing his prosecution of 2020 election interference, then you might have discovered an interesting little tidbit. mr. smith says, in the discovery evidence that is part of his case, that he has about 3. 1 million pages of material from the secret service, including emails. so, it appears that the secret service is of interest to jack smith. we even know that as many as six secret service agents had testified before his grand jury in this investigation. why? we do not yet know. we might also never know the contents of the missing secret service text messages from january 6th. they were all irretrievably deleted. so, there is a lot of intrigue here. and today, we got a very interesting look at secret service communications with the far-right oath keepers militia. just a few months before january 6th -- and we got them courtesy of the watchdog group crew. now, we already knew that secret service agents were talking with the oath keepers about their plans to attend a trump rally in north carolina in september of 2020. we heard this from an oath keeper who testified during founder stewart rhodes's criminal trial. and the secret service confirmed that contact, but also said those interactions were routine. having said that, it looks a little different when you read the communications themselves. after speaking to stewart rhodes, one agent -- one secret agent -- described himself as an unofficial liaison to the oath keepers, inching towards official. that is a secret service agent describing himself as a would-be official liaison to the oath keepers, a paramilitary organization. stewart rhodes would later be convicted of seditious conspiracy and sentenced to 18 years in prison for his effort to keep trump in power. but another agent, after speaking to mr. rhodes, told colleagues that rhodes was not attending trump's rally to push a political agenda. no. the emails further give the impression that secret service agents took the oath keepers at their word when they said they were attending the event to protect trump supporters from leftist groups. joining me now is carol leonnig, investigative reporter at "the washington post", and author of "zero fail: the rise and fall of the secret service". carol leonnig, thank you for being here. when i first -- the story, i said, get carol leonnig. because we have talk in previous months about the strange relationship between the secret service and trump supporters and whether there exists something unusual, an unusual dimension to that. when you read this correspondence from the secret service about this secret keepers, what was your impression? >> alex, i am so glad that you ask it that way. my impression right off the bat was, okay, we all know that law enforcement generally leans a little conservative, a little red and, in some cases, in the secret service, definitely pro-trump. but in this instance they sound almost naive, as if they are not familiar with what the oath keepers stand for. they refer to them as an extremely -- very, i think the exact words were very pro law enforcement official organization, and pro trump -- almost as if they are walking hand in hand like like-minded friends of each other. and also, the naivete comes through with the seaming acceptance of exactly the line you quoted, alex, which is, they are not here, emphasize not here, to express a political opinion or to protest, just to protect supporters of mr. trump. well, that certainly was not their role in washington d. c. on january 6th. and it does not seem to have been their role in previous rallies in washington to, quote unquote, stop the steal. other pro trump efforts to sort of cling to power after he had lost the election -- >> yeah. i was stunned by the idea that a secret service agent would call himself on unofficial -- inching toward official -- liaison with the oath keepers. the secret service has waved away the correspondence between the oath keepers and its own agents and just kind of routine contact. but on the outside, it's hard to imagine that having this same relationship, the same unofficial liaison relationship with, i don't know, antifa -- that the sort of coziness between these organizations, i think, raises some eyebrows. are you surprised that the agency has not done more to sort of either disabuse the public of what was going on here or further investigate what was going on here? >> so, i think it is hard to draw a real clear -- i totally get your gut instinct. i think it's hard to draw a conclusion about how the secret service uses the term liaison. it is -- and i just want to say this in fairness -- it is normal for the secret service, when the president is involved, for them to reach out to different protest groups to try to suss them out, maybe undercover or in plain clothes, and say, hey, just want to check in with you, oath keepers, proud boys, right to life marchers, whatever the group may be -- we want to touch base with you, want to let you know the rules, want you to be aware of what you can and can't do during this rally or this event. that is not unusual. however, i think what this really highlights and cements for a lot of us reporters who wrote extensively about january 6th is that law enforcement did not have any real palpable fears about a conservative -leaning group with white nationalism and white supremacists in its midst, our military in many respects, and basically viewed it as guys that were on the side of cops. and therefore, they were only worried -- and this is not just the secret service, but law enforcement generally -- only seemed to be worried about the idea of, like, a fracas, if antifa showed up and trump supporters showed up, there would be violence and blood in the streets. but that is not what happened. and that naivete and that assumption about what the oath keepers were up to was, really, an intelligence failure writ large for the federal government, not just for the secret service. >> yeah, and we talk about that intelligence failure, let's say, in and around january 6th, my question to you is, i noticed, and i'm sure you did, that jack smith has included 3 million pages -- some of it redundancy, some of it unrelated, but necessary for the purposes of discovery, but nonetheless a lot of material from the secret service in this initial batch of discovery that is being shared with trump's legal team -- do you have any thoughts on what that could be? >> you may remember, alex, that at the very last minute, under intense pressure from congress and the select committee investigating january 6th, the failures, the president's motives, the role of various white house aides, under intense pressure, the secret service dove through all its records, because it had already deleted all of the tax, it says, inadvertently, that we're covering this time period from all personnel phones in the secret service. so, it turned over more than 1 million pages of material. i was told it was more than 1 million documents. and i should be careful about pages versus documents. and that was something that the committee was pouring over in the final days to try to understand what was inside this material. i would imagine some of what jack smith has overlaps with what the committee received. and within that, obviously, there is a lot of traffic going back and forth about what were donald trump's plans for marching on the capitol on that day, of joining the people that he had been warned had weapons, people he was warned had pistols and rifles and tear gas. what were his plans? what were his pressure points on the secret service, to take him to the capitol on that day, to join his faithful followers? when >> i have more questions than there are answers, but you helped me a lot. this evening -- carol leonnig, thank you, as always, for your expertise. i appreciate it. >> of course. >> still ahead this evening, ron desantis says his bright college years showed him the dark side of woke college liberalism. but as the anti-elite creator owe his elite pedigree to those ivy league connections? and the man who led the russian mercenary group in a revolt against russian president putin, two months ago today, may have died. we will talk about what we know about all of that and who might be responsible, coming up next. trying to control my asthma felt anything but normal. ♪ ♪ enough was enough. i talked to an asthma specialist and found out my severe asthma is driven by eosinophils, a type of asthma nucala can help control. now, fewer asthma attacks and less oral steroids that's my nunormal with nucala. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. talk to your asthma specialist to see if once-monthly nucala may be right for you. and learn about savings at nucala.com there's more to your life than asthma. find your nunormal with nucala. >> we are following breaking news out of russia today, where a plane reportedly carrying yevgeny prigozhin, founder of the wagner mercenary group, has crashed. two months to the day after prigozhin staged a short-lived mutiny against the russian military. according to russian officials, prigozhin who is one of the ten passengers on the plane. now, all are said to have died after the plane crashed while on route to st. petersburg from moscow. however, we still do not have official confirmation that prigozhin himself is dead, and you can see here the plane suddenly plummeting to the ground, which has fueled speculations about whether the crash was an accident or not. according to "the washington post", two loud sounds were heard just before the plane crash. now, after his failed coup, putin exiled prigozhin and his followers to nearby belarus, and he has branded demonstrators. today, president biden did not rule out that putin may be behind the crash. >> i don't know for a fact what happened. but i am not surprised. >> do you think -- >> there's not much that happens in russia that putin is not behind. i don't know enough to know the answer. >> joining me now is susan glasser, staff writer for "the new yorker", and author of "kremlin rising: -- vladimir putin's russia and the end of revolutions. susan, thank you for being here. i just wonder as a russian watcher and knower, such as you are, you have a theory about why we don't have official confirmation about why prigozhin he's dead or alive? >> well, look, there is always a lag between the two things. i think the message is pretty loud and clear. certainly, the default setting here has to be that prigozhin he's presumed dead at this moment in time. the wagner group social media channels are also suggesting that that is exactly what happened. you made the point, alex, that is exactly two months since the failed mutiny by prigozhin and a cohort of his men. he did not -- unwisely, it appears -- he did not choose to stick with the exile in belarus that was negotiated to end that aborted mutiny. and i think, in our experience, vladimir putin, as bill burns said, just a few weeks ago, he likes his revenge served cold. it was unsustainable, in many ways, for this really overt active challenge to this supremacy of the state in russia. it was, i think -- many people expected, frankly, something like this. and there is a long, long trajectory over 20 years of people who go into open opposition to vladimir putin, they end up. did they end up poison. they end up in mysterious accidents. so, again, there is a long chain of predecessor events to something like this. >> do you see this as an escalation of putin's sort of position as it concerns adversaries? i mean, he did say that prigozhin was going to go on and live in exile. do you think that russians chalk this up to, oh, well, he violated, effectively, the terms of that exile? therefore, he deserves it? or does this discredit putin in the eyes of russians? >> i think this is the -- putin believes that the language, to speak the language, of power is the -- language of the stronger beating the week. he has said that before, very openly, in his view. it is only the week that get beaten. and so this is not meant to be subtle. it is not subtle. and putin's rule over 20 years has not been subtle. the idea is not to follow some arbitrary set of rules, but to show that you make the rules. and one of the things that was so shocking to russia watchers, alex, was the idea that, for once, yevgeny prigozhin was challenging the state's monopoly on the use of armed power in that abortive mutiny. and i think it was really just a shocking moment. so, this is very important, in many ways, for putin to reassert the supremacy of his rule. and, in my experience, the more over the top and unabashed the aggressive move by putin, that is the kind of choice he has made it again and again, to stay in power. he is the longest serving russian leader since joseph stalin and is still relatively young at age 70 years old. this is a ruthless, cutthroat system. and i think a display of naked power is exactly what one would imagine putin going for in a moment like this. >> it's also worth noting that another top wagner official dmitry utkin was also on that plane and they also have perished. the wagner group has been responsible, for i guess you could call, some of russia's most meaningful successes on the battlefield in ukraine. so, i wonder what you think the implications are for that more broadly, and more specifically, the wagner group's existence? >> i think that really is an important question. at least in the initial aftermath of the abortive mutiny. ukrainians were obviously looking very closely at this. the pentagon was looking very closely at this and there was no overt sign that it caused any kind of problem on the ground for russians in the fighting the ukrainians in the counteroffensive. so, that is something to watch for. it is also interesting, and certainly not a coincidence, that it was also announced that general sergey surovikin was removed as head of the russian air force at the same time. he was also taken, apparently, into custody in the aftermath of the wagner rebellion. i think that you have to think that he was also basically pulled aside for being too close to those who challenged the power in russia. so, it is yet another earthquake, though, that results from putin's catastrophic decision to invade ukraine. i think that is an important way to look at what is happening here. none of this would have come into the open -- these disputes inside the kremlin -- if it were not for this kind of catastrophic war that russia is waging in ukraine right now. enormous casualties, questions about the kremlin's leadership -- all of that is a result of biting off more than they could handle in the ukraine. >> yeah. well, seismic developments on all fronts. tonight susan glasser, as always, thank you, it's great to see you. still to come this evening, how florida governor ron desantis and the war on elitism is now a party wide battle. we are going to have more on that strange hypocrisy coming up next. up next. okay. i'll work on that. save 50% on the sleep number® limited edition smart bed. plus, 60-month financing on all smart beds. shop now only at sleep number®. we planned well for retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? 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(bright music) the history in political science earned a 3.5 gp summer by students struggle when they come to yell, said john stood with the ivy league schools baseball. go when desantis came here his academic career natural spray on reports. when he was elected by his teammates as captain of the bulldogs's final season the outfield heartedly except the honor. being voted by your peers says a lot of what they think gary who said was to person. >> our deed to the baseball capital. is of course florida governor ronald dion desantis ron desantis. by all accounts our d descended thrived while at yale. he was reply really a popular student, he was well liked by his peers. and voted captain of the baseball team so what contrast that that reality with the way that governor ron desantis now discuss his time at yale. >> well i remember the first time i saw a foot on the l candace i showed up and jean shorts and a t-shirt and it did not go well with and over and grandkids. i started taking classes they rejected god and they hated our country and i'm thinking to myself, what have i got myself into? you >> just like the history curriculum in florida schools the history of ron descendants time of his ind lead, has been re-written. ron desantis now cast himself as a warrior fighting the ruling elite. an exhaustive new piece from the new york times details how much ron desantis spent much of his life trying to succeed in the very same elite circus. while he was capping the baseball team at yale, he joined saint elmo, a vaulted secret society at the school. he spent his undergraduate years dreaming about getting accepted at another elite institution, harvard law school. when he was eventually admitted to harvard, he didn't find himself surrounded by cultural marxist as he's recounted. by other conservative elites. people like leonard leo the head of the conservative federalist society, who letter help governor desantis remake florida's courts after law school santos and his friends started their own touring firm to help get people into other colleges. it was the only boss lsat prep course defined exclusively by harvard graduates. but now he tells the story of his formative years through a different lens. he ends to distance themselves from the very institutions that helped him become the national figure he is today. >> boy he is not alone. >> and just a second i'm gonna talk to my colleague, joy reid about the iv lid hypocrisy plaguing monacan republican party and what it means for their attempts to retake power. that is next. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. >> the elite look down on the i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. common affections that was bound this nation together. >> the elites, who dominate our culture -- >> it all goes back to this woke mind virus that has swept through a lot of liberal elites and a lot of elite institutions. >> that would be josh hawley, ted cruz, and ron desantis, three of today's republican party's most prominent voices, railing against the effects of the so-called ruling elite. but there is something else they have in common. all three men are graduates of some of the richest, most connected, elite institutions in the united states of america. yale law, harvard law, and harvard law respectively. that apparent hypocrisy begs the question, to republican voters see through this shtick? i think i know the answer, but when asked the expert anyway. girl joining me now is my friend and colleague, joy reid. joy, it's great to have you here. we talked before the segment about this new york times piece on ron desantis. he thrived at yale. he was desperate to go to harvard law. and now he has created a brand for himself, railing against those very same institutions, positioning himself as a cultural warrior that is here to tear down the intellectual walls that have been built, to ignore the advice of experts on everything, whether it's history or race or science. and my question to you is, do you think that this hypocrisy is borne of legitimate grievance with elites? or do you think it's fully just a political tool? >> i think it's kind of both. yale and harvard. he gad. desantis. the thing that is fandos-ing fascinating about him specifically, when you talk about ignoring scientific experts, his surgeon general, also a harvard man, is he is anti vax, anti science. he is known for that as well. i think part of it is the fact that the republican party, now mainly appeals to non-college white voters. and so they are trying to appeal to people who are very much on like themselves. even the j. d. vance's of the word world, who wrote a whole book slugging the people that ostensibly came from, people in appalachia. they are trying to appeal to working class white christians. so they've got to make themselves seem more like them. see more likable to them. i think that's part of. it george w. bush did it, i want to have a beer with george w. bush, he would never have a beer with you. he bought his texas ranch in 2000. so they have to appeal to them by trying to mimic them. that's part of it. the other part of it is this deep resentments. and desantis in particular displays, it against the fact that in their mind at some point elite universities stopped serving rich white men and their interests and became these sort of pluralistic places where ideas about racial pluralism and economic pluralism and wokeness, inclusiveness, affirmative action, those things in their mind poisoned these institutions. they think they've got to purge education, the whole system, from k-12 all the way through graduate school, of liberalism, because liberalism actually jeopardizes the thing they care most about, which is tax cuts for the superrich. >> and patriarchal power. >> and patriarchal power. they hate the fact that they believe that the universities have done. it they are right in this one cents. one thing the universities have done is make it very difficult for republicans to win in any town that's got a university in it. >> that's the break. that is the thing that divides democrats 100 percent. if education. in the profile in new york times it just came out about desantis, it seems like covid was an inflection point for a lot of these anti-institutional, anti-intellectual, anti-science opinions of ron desantis to become crystallized. initially he can be seen in a mask and then he starts talking about, i think, he closes certain institutions, he's biting by the science of the experts. then he starts having these other column bruce station's and sees the hit to florida's economy and says we have to change this position. for a lot of other americans it proved the dove inflection point to rail against the elites, to the degree that there is pulling from really the summer saying among likely republican primary voters, the question, is we're trying to make decisions, do you think elected officials should prioritize the knowledge of train experts or the common sense of ordinary people? 25% want to listen to experts. 69% want to listen to the ordinary people. that seems like a problem in american politics. >> absolutely. but if you think about his political incentives in the state of florida, which is driven overwhelmingly by tourism, and places like florida where tourism is the lifeline of the economy, shutting down restaurants, shutting down gyms and bars, is an existential crisis economically. if disney's not open, florida and open. >> disney will come for another day. he's fighting mickey mouse. >> the saying is he literally sued cruise lines that wanted to have testing and masking. he literally attempted to force them to let people who were infected with covid get on the ship. because his priority at that point was to boost the economy and to keep the economy from being harmed by covid. and he wanted to run for president. so he was putting the economics first. but this guy was a tea party member so the most important thing is money in economy not, people staying alive. he's also the state with the most elderly people. he claims he was anti-vax. he made sure that welty an elderly floridians got the vaccine. make sure they were vaccinated. an important voting bloc in an important base of the people who funded his private flights because you know he doesn't fly commercial. he flies private, which became a huge controversy. people wondering why won't this ordinary guy who's supposed to be just a baseball player -- >> common sense, or new year's people flying private? >> and he won't get on an ordinary plane with ordinary people. he just wants to live like a trump envy another donald trump. >> i think that's what your frustrating, to be euphemistic, the acceptance that these guys are doing this all for personal political gain and none of it is authentic. has a golden toilet and yet talks about how much he is of the people and here we are, today's modern republican party. joy reid, just stay on the program and come back tomorrow. co-host with me all the time. >> we are getting out. let's do. that >> we were little bit, but we're not gonna talk about. that joy reid, host of the reidout, thank you my friend as always. that is our show for tonight. and now it is time for the last word, with lawrence and now it is time for the "last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence >> could you send joy reid o >> veyes, i can. we're not>> letting her leave, lawrence. >> that is television fun. there's nothing like being on tv with joy reid. >> that is true. a thrill. well, this is the day that this man finally became this man. rudolf giuliani's status of having the most famous mug shot in america will last only