good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. there are major developments in two of donald trump's for indictments. the first is out of the federal classified documents case in florida. we just learned that trump employee number 4, that's how he's identified, appears to be cooperating with special counsel jack smith. here's why that matters. in the superseding indictment, the one that came later, one of the most striking revelations was an exchange between to mar-a-lago employees describing how, quote, the boss, donald trump, wanted security surveillance footage deleted and an i. t. mar-a-lago worker also known as trump employee 4 refused. in a new court filing tonight, jack smith's team says that that guy, to various, as retracted his previous false statements surrounding the footage. he has fired his previous attorney, stanley woodward, who represents several other people in trump world. jack smith's team writes, immediately after receiving new council, he retracted his prior false testimony and provided information that implicated not, de oliveira, and trump in efforts to delete security camera footage. a trial may anticipate calling him as a witness. it is happening is the ex presidents fellow racketeers in the fulton county georgia indictment are starting to surrender. remember, there are 19 codefendants in all, including folks like rudy giuliani and mark meadows, as well as some lesser known people. after setting bond to hundred thousand dollars, trump has appeared to negotiate a surrender where he will surrender thursday night where he will be booked, fingerprinted, photographed for a mugshot. the entire lot of codefendants have a deadline of friday at 12 pm eastern to surrender. that three days. for surrender actually happened. it came this morning. codefendant scott hall, the man you see there, turned himself in. hall, an obscure character, a georgia bail bondsman, charged in connection with gaining illicit access to voting machines and data in a county called coffee county in georgia in 2021. that data that purloined real voting data was turned over to the conspiracy according to the indictment. mr. hall was the first person to surrender. the second was one of the architects of the conspiracy to overthrow american democracy. you probably know this one by name, well by now. john eastman, one of the ex presidents attorneys. here he spoke at the ellipse on the morning of january 6th. >> all we are demanding of vice president pence is that this afternoon at 1:00 he let the legislatures of the state look into this so we get to the bottom of it and the american people know whether we have control of the direction of our government or not. we no longer live in a south governing republic if we can't get the answer to this question. this is bigger than president trump. it is the very essence of our republican form of government, and it has to be done. and anybody that is not willing to stand up to do it does not deserve to be in the office. it is that simple [applause] >> it's worth noting that he is lying there, among other things, when he says get to the bottom of it. there's nothing to get to the bottom of. the bottom had been found. we got to the bottom. the bottom was located well before that speech. that's a pretext for a coup. he plotted that infamous coup in a memo that said exactly what he laid out right there. have mike pence, the solitary soul arbiter of american elections, apparently, just reject the electors from the states that elected joe biden president on january 6th, and instead count the fake trump electors or send it back to this legislatures. john eastman was not always of fringe conspiracy theorist, a crank, an indicted felon. he was a republican conservative lawyer. he clerked for esteemed judges, including appeals court judge michael luttig, was considered for a supreme court seat by george w. bush, and then after that for supreme court justice clarence thomas. eastman exchanged emails with thomas's wife during the postelection period. he's also believed to be coconspirator number two in jack smith's federal indictment of the ex president. he has now been officially criminally indicted and booked. now he has legal fees and a trial to prepare for. he claims he was not doing anything wrong, that this indictment in georgia is the criminalization of first amendment redress of agreements and political activity. but we know thanks to the january 6th committee, that even john eastman knew what he was doing was unlawful. >> john eastman admitted in advance of the 2020 election that mike pence could not lawfully refused to count official electoral votes. but he nevertheless devised a marriage with company proposal that deployed of bogus election fraud claims and the fake electoral ballots to say that mike pence, presiding of the joint session, could reject legitimate electoral votes for president elect biden. >> eastman himself admitted his plan was illegal. the scheme was viewed with contempt and skepticism by a whole bunch of lawyers working in mike pence's office, the white house office. one of those people in the white house counsel's office, eric herschmann, who worked in the trump white house in the final days. after all the bloodshed and the violence on the mayhem on january 6th, john eastman called eric herschmann the next day to say can we still pull off the coup? herschmann recounted that call to the january six committee last year. >> and he started to ask me about something dealing with georgia, preserving something, potentially for appeal. and i said to him, are you out of your effing mind? i said i only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth from now on, orderly transition. i don't want to hear any other effing words coming out of your mouth no matter what other than orderly transition. repeat those words to me. eventually he said orderly transition. i said good, john. now i'm gonna give you the best free legal advice you're ever gonna get in your life. get a great effing criminal defense lawyer. you're going to need it. and i hung up on him. >> that proved to be pretty prophetic. he does need one now. but here's the thing. herschmann is not the only person who worry that eastman had committed crimes. another person worried about john eastman possibly committing crimes was john eastman. now we know that because john eastman petitioned for a pardon in the waiting days of the trump administration. not even after a week after the insurrection, he spoke to rudy giuliani and said, quote, i've decided that i should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works. i've decided i should be on the pardon list. you know, come to think of it, maybe that was criminal. that's something you only do if you think you have some criminal exposure, which clearly john eastman thought he had. what is amazing about all that is that this morning as he surrendered in fulton county, he remained or pretended to remain defiant. >> do they do a mugshot? >> no comment. >> do you still think the election was stolen? >> absolutely. >> absolutely? still? >> no question. no question about it. >> okay, maybe you're trying a mentally unfit to stand trial defense, which i think a lot of people are aiming for, possibly. okay, there are 17 more codefendants that need to surrender. i suspect a lot of them will make similar arguments. not the question i'm not legally competent to stand trial, but this is all first amendment protected speech, your criminalizing politics, this isn't a criminal conspiracy. and here's the thing. they have every right to make those arguments. in some ways this set of charges's novel. there's some some stuff to test their. they can make those arguments. but eventually they're gonna have to make them in a court of law in front of a jury of their peers. former prosecutor in the state attorney's office in florida's miami dade office. they both join me now. katie, first, let me start with you, and you just outside the courthouse on the surrender watch we have going and we only have two so far. there's a lot more to come. there's a development today i want to say that mark meadows says the court if you like, i need more time. he asked fani willis can i have more time. she said i'm not granting any extensions. she wrote an email to his attorney. your client is no different than any other client in this jurisdiction. two weeks was a tremendous courtesy. at 12:30 on friday actual file warrants on the system. my team is available to me to discuss reasonable consent bonds wednesday and thursday. what do you make of all? this >> what does it tell you the donald trump has entered into a, quote, reasonable consent bond order already? she's right. chris, they've been on notice. that indictment was unsealed late medina last week. to mark meadows's credit, i put that in quotes, he did move expeditiously to file a notice of removal. our viewers are aware that on this coming monday, august 28th at 10 am, a federal judge in the northern district of georgia will conduct an evidentiary hearing to determine whether or not mark meadows's claim of removal, because he was a federal official at the time of the conduct alleged in the indictment, that he is entitled to the removal of his case from state court into federal court. mark meadows also is making a move to dismiss all charges, saving running the gamut from due process, as well as the supremacy clause. mark meadows removal thing, chris, it's a test balloon, if you may, because if mark meadows can get the case removed a federal court on the grounds that he's a federal official and if he can sustain a dismissal, which i can tell you right now chris, is not gonna happen on a monday, then perhaps, as we have seen, people like david schaffer and jeffrey clark, they've also filed notices of removal, they're also codefendants with donald trump here in fulton county. they have also filed notices and we're going to see, and evidently, john eastman, sydney powell, a whole lot of people try that theory out. of course david schaffer was not a federal official. he's actually test ballooning his own bizarre theory. he says as a contingent elector, presidential elector, i am afforded the protections that we give it to me under the constitution. so there's a lot that that play. the last thing i'll tell you, chris, very quickly, is that an evidentiary hearing is dangerous for any defendant. you're not allowed to introduce hearsay at an evidentiary hearing, and as such the defendant, like mark meadows, will maybe have to take the stand to testify, because the burden of proof is going to be on him as the party trying to remove two federal court. that will be very interesting to see what happens on monday. >> okay, so we have a hearing on monday. meadows trying to get out of appearing for court. but willis says he has to. as dual 19. trump has struck his agreement. scott, i want to talk to you about this development in the documents case. i just think this is a pretty striking detail here. jack smith's office saying look, we've got this employee, he refused to do the thing that the boss wanted, according to the prosecutors office, which was delete footage. he had a trump world lawyer. he left that lawyer and the next day he came clean and said, and told us the truth. what does that say to you? >> that says i hear birds singing. can you hear them as well? they're going to be other birds singing who are either indicted or unindicted coconspirators in the federal case as well as the state case. tavares, i think that his name, is a really important witness, and again, trump has lost control of this individual because he clearly didn't like the advice and counsel of the trump appointed lawyer and so as a result he's got a public defender, a very good public defender. and that to help him because he's probably gonna get a deal but at the same time it's a challenge for the government because now he has switched his testimony in the cross-examination when it goes to trial is going to be cross-examined on why he switched but the government knows why he switched and he's gonna tell that story once he gets on the stand because he as attorney-client privilege but he controls the privilege. he can wave those privileges and discuss every communication with his lawyer. his prior lawyer. >> that's an important point. it's also the first, to me the first common formation, katie. there are two things in play. one is the notion of trump world's lawyers, trump getting lawyers for people as a kind of quid pro quo. keep them inside the family. keep them from cooperating. you saw this with cassidy hutchison, mark meadows deputy who were left a trump lawyer, told everything she knew. now we see the same with taveras. there's a question about the rest of those people in that georgia case and the unindicted coconspirators. jen ellis, one of the people who will have to report and be booked in fulton county. she's angry she's not getting her legal bills paid, and that seems like a dangerous thing for trump in the rest of them. >> jenna alice is a great example for you to hold up, because she is a very deep in the weeds in terms of what happened in fulton county. i also noticed as well, when john eastman was leaving the rice street jail for fulton county, he was asked, who is paying your legal fees? ? he claims that he is paying for his own legal fees, but we had a chance to talk to his lawyer, who accompanied him, his local council. he said i have only been retained for the surrender, and i haven't inquired as to who is paying my fees. look, cassidy hutchinson i think is the most excellent example of how when people see the light and they have those come to jesus moments when they realize trump legal fees are not gonna be paid, this is a long haul. i want to give an example. there is a legal case being tried but they're trying to pick a jury right now. it's from the 2022 indictments for gangs and murders et cetera. it's like -- it's multiple codefendants. they are on month nine. can you imagine with the legal fees are going to be for this case? it's going to be a lot. i have sympathy for them, frankly. you lie down with dogs you get up with police. this is the problem you have when you're trying to negotiate in this way. >> i guess, scott, my question here, to katie's point about the duration, how much is this gonna cost? i guess you can't say, but it's going to be a lot of money,? >> it's a high-profile matter. there are several codefendants. it will be super it's expensive. you have a very good lawyer who does white-collar from a big firm, doesn't have to be a big firm but it could be millions of dollars. but here's the thing. how loyal are these codefendants and coconspirators going to be to donald trump if he's not paying their legal fees? and their liberty is at stake? every night they're going to bed thinking how strong the government's case is and whether they're going to be convicted. and if they get convicted and they haven't played out, they're going to jail. that's a great motivator to cooperate. a great motivator to get your own council, and a great motivator to say your prayers and hope you get a deal once you've been indicted, or even if you're an unindicted coconspirator. >> katie phang and a. scott bolden, thank you very much. that was great. >> still to come the very exciting announcement, i can't wait to tell you about it. it involves a road show and you, the home viewer. first, on the eve of the first primary debate, republicans are so confident they could be joe biden that they're on track to nominate the twice impeached quadruple indicted loser of an ex president who can't even be bothered to show up. why they should underestimate biden at their own peril. that's next. next. wow, you get to watch all your favorite stuff. it's to die for. and it's all right here. streaming was never this easy, you know. this is the way. you really went all out didn't you? um, it's called commitment. could you turn down the volume? here, you can try. get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. here's why you should switch fro to duckduckgo on all your device duckduckgo comes with a built in engine like google, but it's pri and doesn't spy on your searches and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooki and creepy ads that follow you a from google and other companies. and there's no catch. it's free. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around >> one of the key things to showing the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. understand as we head to the first debate tomorrow is that the republican presidential politics is not actually entirely about donald trump. it is as much about president joe biden and the way that the hermetically sealed conservative universe understands and depicts joe biden. in their minds, the president is both a venal and preposterous figure. he's the corrupt head of the so-called biden crime family who has been unbeknownst to anyone taking illegal bribes for years, just not caught. of course there's no ad evidence of that. according to conservatives, the president is also a laughing stock, a feeble old man propped up by aides, who everyone thinks is uncompleted competent. >> i think they're all alarmed at the presidents condition. he's obviously seen nail. he's faltering. he's not gonna get better before election day and beyond. >> when the energy levels on the stage been between the former president the current president be shocking? >> they might be, mike. >> the former president has like a year and a half younger, that one? the 78 year old? this perception of joe biden, feeble and venal and ridiculous all at the same time, is so ingrained, so taken for granted in conservative media, there's just no room for any other understanding of the man or his political appeal for the tens of millions of people who voted for him. we have such a great new example of that in a video posted by the republican national committees opposition research team. they're supposed to find the gotcha quotes. oh, look at this. this is a moment for president biden's trip to the devastated island of maui. and the rnc believes this clip makes biden look bad. >> how you doing, pal? >> you guys catch the boots out here? that's some hot ground, man. >> now i think most people watch that and think, that's a nice moment. president obviously likes dogs. he's concerned about the dogs welfare. it's hot in the fire area. i think most americans like dogs, as well. but republicans posted this like, get a load of this loser. they had zero idea, truly, zero intuitive subjective sense of how anyone could like the guy, how anyone could vote for him. and you can see their complete and utter confidence in this recent polling for nbc news in the des moines register. 65% of like the iowa caucus goers say a cut the candidate who comes closer to their views on issues, versus 29% who say they are concerned with picking the candidate who has the best chance of beating biden. because they're not worried about it. they are not worried they're going to lose to joe biden. they think anyone can beat joe biden. now you could say that this is not just conservatives. you can say the same was true of liberals who could not understand how anyone would vote for donald trump in 2016. but trump managed to win the election, infamously, despite losing the popular vote by several million votes. countless journalists from maine seem to progressive, center, center-left, establishment, anti establishment, all did the same reporting. asked how they missed donald trump's appeal. they talk to trump voters over and over again. the trump line supporter of the diner so they still like trump. how much the media wrestled with this, how much they obsessed over it. but it did at least represent a correction to the overconfidence a lot of people on the left and center left hand before the correction. the election. that reckoning is never happened on the right. you would think that reckoning would have come when their beloved god king, donald trump, lost to the guy they think is a ridiculous senile joke, joe biden, in 2020. that election was not close. donald trump lost by five points almost. four and a half? 7 million votes and four and a half points. he lost by a wider margin that a whole bunch of other loser republicans, from herschel walker to david perdue to kelly loeffler and martha mcsally. you never hear about those people anymore. you know why? because they were losers. they last. so no one cares what they think about politics. donald trump got his butt kicked way harder than they did. this is why donald trump's big lie is so important. along with the cult of personality surrounding him, it's key to understanding this phenomenon, the politics of this moment. the vehemence with which come service still insist the 2020 election was rigged, it protects them from this reckoning. there's no way the american people actually chose joe biden as their president. he never left his basement. it's kind of psychological defense mechanism. they don't want to accept that the man they are so devoted to is a loser. and deeper down i think it's also an expression of a believe the people voted for joe biden aren't the real americans. they don't really count. the mogul folks are the ones that should be running the fan the country, even if they're outnumbered. big lie, that cult of personality keeps the roofs golding. and that joe biden is a loser when it's the other way around. that way conservatives don't have to deal with the reality that republican politics are minority politics. when the nation on mask comes out to vote, they're on the losing side again and again. the only way to pierce the party is to convince some portion of the republican electorate of the basic fact that the man is a loser. a bigger loser than many of his fellow republicans in 2020. an even bigger loser than mitt romney was in 2012. if there is a first step to breaking trump's grip on the party, it's hammering this simple truth. we'll see if anyone has a sense to do it tomorrow night. we'll talk about that next. >> in the first republican debate donald trump will not be taking the stage, but it's hard to imagine a productive debate that doesn't deal with him and what he's done. it's worth remembering eight years ago how the then-candidate behaved the first time he took to the republican debate podium. august 26, 2015, ten presidential hopefuls still in the race, donald trump refused to pledge his support to any of them. >> is there anyone onstage, and can i see hands, who is unwilling tonight to pledge your support to the eventual nominee of the republican party and pledge to not run an independent campaign against that person? again, i'm looking for you to raise your hand now, [applause] if you want to make that pledge tonight. [applause] >> mr. trump. >> if i do win and i'm leading by quite a bit, that's what i want to do. i can totally make that pledge if i'm the nominee. i will pledge i will not run as an independent. and i am discussing it with everybody. but i'm talking about a lot of leverage. we want to win, and we will win. >> perhaps we should have known what was coming. we are now trying to upholstered him aquatic strategist, and communications director of the 2008 obama campaign, and a senior adviser for the 2012 obama campaign. molly, i want to start with a question of electability. particularly in 2020, when you pull democratic voters it was -- a huge thing of who can beat trump? that's what we want. even when you gave them that choice, the closer my policies can beat trump, it was beat trump. the iowa polling in the national polling polling is the inverse of that. republican primary voters say they don't care. what do you make of that? how does that change the way the dynamics of this race work? >> i think in this case, in this primary, donald trump allows republican primary voters to have their cake and eat it too. they think they can beat joe by biden and they think they agree with him on the issues. it's not the divisive segmenting out of republican primary voters that it may have been in a democratic primary electorate in 2020, where those who were less concerned about electability may not have been initially supportive of joe biden. in this case they really don't have to make that choice. they think donald trump has it all for them. >> yeah, and this, robert, is what's so important about the big lie, the alternative reality. i didn't lose to him. i didn't lose by 7 million votes. i didn't get my butt kicked as a first term incumbent like george h. w. bush did by a guy who, quote, never left his basement because people hate to be so much. that's the reality, though. and if you don't let people hold on to that, why not nominate me again? >> yeah, and look, chris, to some degree those who are trying to take this away from donald trump had presumed that by now the republican electorate would be in this position, presumably after 22 watching candidate after candidate that trump supported losing, they figured the dirty work would be done for them. i'm sure ron desantis, i'll beat trump, i'll be the winning donald trump, i just win big in florida. now to open the pages of the des moines register or look at it online and see that that doesn't matter presents them with an entirely different strategic problem. you know, brian kemp attackers in georgia by going at it frontal-y. the election was fair, and little trump lost in georgia. it's really hard to start the path here for saying this guy is a loser, i can be the winner. if you are allergic to saying that guy lost. >> yes, that's right. and i think there's also, just to follow up with you a second because you were on the 2012 campaign, i think we've learned, it's a polarized nation. anyone against the major party nominations starts with 43% of the vote, probably. doesn't matter who. any of the four of us. anyone walking down the street. i really think that's the case, 43 or 44%. you can't underestimate your opponent. you can't underestimate the possibility of winning. and i think that democrats learned that lesson after 2016, the hard way. i know you guys thought mitt romney was a formidable foe in 2012, and he was. i wonder how much this troop of joe biden is ridiculous, pathetic old fool hurts them politically, sort of mail forms their perception of the actual reality of american politics right now. >> yeah. i definitely think it does. but your head and your heart tell you, some of the things that trump did put a national ceiling on his ability to grow. we saw that in 2020. we saw you start with 43, 44% and you're racing for this middle ground of 10% of the people, his actions kept his ability to grow that. in many ways, and i have talked to democrats about this, you've seen trump whittle away at that overtime. the challenge is, as you point out in 2016, never say never. you never know what's gonna happen. if you're a nominee for the republican party party or democrat party you have a coin flip's chance of being the president, and democrats have to take that extraordinarily seriously. i do worry that we don't take it seriously enough, that we think this guy could never be elected after what we have seen now. >> oh no. >> as we he's polling we're seeing something different. >> he definitely could. i want to be clear to viewers, he definitely could. i don't think he's a strong candidate, but i think he could. we have to keep those two things in your head. there is the psychological aspect to this, molly. there's a sort of right-wing margot podcast talking about anti trump republicans and why it doesn't play with the base. someone wrote in, and they opposed to this, and i want to read it and get your feedback, molly. because it gets to an interesting psychology here. it is keep in mind that supporting trump came with costs never associated with supporting bush, mckay, or romney. trump supporters lost friendships. brothers and sister stop talking to each other. there are parents whose children disown them. grandparents who whose grandchildren will speak to them. every republican has these stories, or knows republicans about the stories. attacking trump was effectively telling people who made real sacrifices they were stupid for doing so because trump was just a poser. how much do you think that psychology is part of what keeps this going in the republican primary electorate? >> i think it's an enormous part of it. i think that when your ostracized for your views, you can become radicalized. i think that's what happened to a lot of the trump supporters, who weren't just affair whether he's the nominee of support am i don't really like him, those are the voters who are potentially up for grabs in the general electorate. i'm talking about for the base republican voters who joined initially with him in 2016, stood by him, and were willing to make sacrifices. those voters are not going to walk away from him now, or if they do it's going to take something extraordinary that we haven't seen yet, and i think we have seen some extraordinary things, so i wouldn't hold my breath. >> molly murphy, and robert gibbs, thank you both, that was great. coming up, a huge announcement that has literally been years in the making. don't want to miss it. don't go anywhere. that's next. i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? 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even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options - which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait —find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. people in southern california i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. community of cedar glen are mourning a beloved neighbor and clothing store owner. who displayed a rainbow pride flag in -- carlton. she was a mother of nine in her blended family, on friday, she was shot and killed at her store, after a dispute over the pride flag she hung outside her store, called magpie. according to the sheriff, of san bernardino county. >> investigators determined prior to the shooting, that he tore down a pride or rainbow flag that was hanging in front of the magpie store. and yelled many homophobic slurs towards carleton. carleton, who worked at magpie, confronted the man, and during the confirmation, he shot and killed carleton. >> nbc's maggie vesper spoke to a friend a neighboring store owner about that moment. >> basically, he screamed, lauri's been shot. close your door. he might still be out there. and i said, oh my gosh, is she okay? and he said, no, i think she's been killed. hearing the words is something very shocking. >> it is shocking. this is the latest on what has been a string of violent attacks on lgbtq folks, people expressing support for them. just over three weeks ago, a 28 year old gay dancer in new york city was just out with his friends, when he was stabbed to death at a service station. a group of men confronted the group at the station, reportedly, hurling homophobic slurs. and telling them to stop dancing. the suspect in the killing is 17 years old. recent report telling over 350 incidents of harassment, vandalism, and assault against lgbtq folks from june 2022 to through april to 2023. el goldberg is a staff writer for the los angeles times, who spent time in the community of cedar, glenemma port on the shooting. noah, thanks for joining us. first, tell me a little bit about laura in and the shop and how she was known in that community. >> laura ann carleton was a shop owner and advocate. she was known for being equally entrepreneur and advocate for the lgbtq community. she owned the shop in cedar glen, which is right by lake arrowhead. she had a shop at the same name in studio city, called magpie. according to everyone who knew her in the area, she was just a lovely person who really cared. she hung this pride flag up outside her shop, even though people sometimes gave her trouble about it, i know there was a story of a neighboring shop owner told me about, some kind of pick up truck who ask her to take it down, and said we don't have an american flag up? which she actually did. but she just said, you have to shop at my store. you can keep going. but i'm gonna keep it up. at my store. >> tell us about what we know about the incident itself, and how it transpired. >> yeah, so, i spoke to someone today who saw cctv footage of the shooting. basically, you can see the suspect travis -- seemingly yelling and laura ann carleton never even left her store. she was shot after the guy tried to pull down the pride flag. she was shot once and then the guy shot through the store window, and then ran off. he was tracked down by the san bernardino county sheriff, and after a confrontation during which he shouted deputies, they shot him to death. >> it seems, again, when this first happened, it seemed like, you know, when you get early details a report like this, you want to make sure that it is what it appears to be. it appeared to be motivated by hatred, and motivated by hatred at queer folks in the flag. it seems, subsequently, the report we have about the public profile of the shooter would seem to confirm that that was the motivation. >> i would say it certainly confirms it. right after they announced who he was, i went and found his profile on gab, a social media website as well as his profile on x, or twitter. he had posted all kinds of homophobic, anti police, antiabortion stuff on his profiles. he had even called for potentially killing police. and then i looked a little further into him today, through court records, i found that his father was actually a florida highway patrol state trooper. that was a little odd. his parents were divorced, he moved out to california, a bunch of years ago. and he claimed on social media, he and his mother were homeless. and that his father wasn't providing for them. yeah, everything you see, and everything we found out right after this occurred, seems to be borne out by what he was posting himself on social media. >> i'm wondering how this is reverberating in that town. such a shocking and horrifying act of violence, and so clearly motivated by hate. >> yeah, i mean, i went out there yesterday, people were showing up all day, outside the store, dropping off flowers, dropping off more pride flags. i would track people down as they walked away, people were crying and hugging each other. very close knit community right in that strip mall, or all these shop owners have their places. everyone's just, you know, completely torn apart by this. >> you know, that flag, you know, who is a sort of radical act to display that flake for a long time. particularly, in my youth, walking around when i pass christopher street in the village in other places. overtime, felt less radical. more normalized. more central, as this sort of figure embraced in america. there's been a very concerted effort over the last several years to try to render an anathema again. i wonder if you talk to any queer folks there, how people are feeling about what it means for them in their safety? >> yeah, in cedar glen, it wasn't always the easiest thing to display a flag like that. i spoke to a store owner who is just a couple stories down named bob stewart, he's a gay man. when laura ann carleton put up the pride flag, he actually warned her. he said, you know, i appreciate what you're doing as a game in, but as a business owner, it might not be the wisest decision to have that up. it turned out to be, you know, much worse rather than just a bad business decision. >> noah goldberg, writer at the los angeles times, great reporting there in the aftermath of this offer atrocity. thank you so so much for making time for us. >> thanks for having, me. chris >> that is all in on this tuesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening,. alex i'm awash in legal findings, we're going to get to all of them in this hour. i hope that you, like, i are going to take a break after your hour of television. >> i'm i'm going to but i'll seu tomorrow. >> you sure will. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. we have some breaking news this evening. while much of the focus today has been on fulton county where donald trump will surrender in less than 48 hours, there are some big developments coming out of the federal indictment down in florida in the classified documents case involving the former president. we are learningthality one of the key witnesses in that case flipped after ditching his trump affiliated lawyer. now, the witness is known formally in court documents as employee number 4. nbc news has identified this person as yucil taveras, the i.t. director

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