>> we today uphold our solemn responsibility to ensure that everyone stands equal before the law. >> we have one set of laws in this country, and they apply to everyone their evidence can be tested in court and judged by a jury of citizen sdpgs we look at the fact, we look at the law and we bring charges. >> for the fourth time in as many months donald trump, the former president of the united states, is facing a criminal indictment. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, august 15th. let's dive right into the latest indictment for the former president. the charges are from fulton county, georgia, where trump and 18 others were named in a sweeping 41-count indictment targeting alleged attempts to overturn the state's 2020 election results, fulton county district attorney fani willis announced the charges just before midnight. >> the state's role in this process is essential to the functioning of our democracy. georgia like every state has laws that allow those who believe that results of an election are wrong, whether because of intentional wrongdoing or unintentional error to challenge those results in our state courts. the indictment alleges that rather than abide by georgia's legal process for election challenges, the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn georgia's presidential election result. >> the indictment charged under georgia's anti-racketeering law accuses the former president and his allies of running a criminal organization, that quote knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of trump. district attorney willis said she would give all defendants until august 25th to turn themselves in and would push to go to trial within six months. the indictment charges trump with 13 felony counts and they are violation of the georgia racketeer influenced and corrupt organizations act or rico, three counts of solicitation of violation of oath by a public officer, two counts of conspiracy to commit false statements and writings, two counts of conspiracy to commit forgery in the first degree, two counts of false statements and writings, conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer, conspiracy to commit filing false documents and filing false documents. many of trump's allies were also charged with various crimes including trump's former personal attorneys rudy giuliani and john eastman, former chief of staff mark meadows, former justice department official jeffrey clark, kenneth creaseboro, former members of trump's 2020 legal team, jenna ellis, giuliani, eastman, clark and powell are also allegedly co-conspirators listed in special counsel jack smith's indictment of trump in the 2020 election case in d.c. joining the conversation we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay, the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, eugene robinson, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance and political reporter for "the atlanta journal-constitution" greg bluestein. joe, this happened overnight. the indictment is almost 100 pages long, and some republicans were quick to jump in front of cameras and make ridiculous parallels to this. >> well, it's because they're still playing the game of politics, and they somehow missed the memo months ago that this has turned from a political father said, a political charade into a deadly serious legal issue. regardless of where the indictments are, so they can lie all they want, they can try to puff up smoke, they can talk about hunter biden as we've said before. hunter biden will be judged. he'll be judged in a court of law, and he'll be judged by a jury and however that jury rules will be how things are determined. so ted cruz and the rest of them can huff and puff and try to blow the house down but doesn't change a damp in thing about donald trump's future. it rests whether he's in jail for the rest of his life or a free man, it doesn't rest on truth social. it rests in a jury box. and that's going to be in four different jury boxes now. joyce vance, your takeaway from what you saw in georgia last night? >> well, joe, it's a broad and a sweeping indictment as we've all been discussing, something that i'm intrigued by is the appearance at least 89 times in the indictment of the phrase "unindicted co-conspirator," and prosecutors like chuck and me, when you see that in an indictment, you begin to wonder if there's cooperation going on because that suggests that the grand jury at least knows about these folks, may have heard from them and they appear in key junctures. there's a mention of an unindicted co-conspirator on january 6th and january 7 as sidney powell and illegally accesses voting machines in that friendly county that is republican controlled. there's mention of unindicted co-conspirators in white house meetings in late december when obstruction of the electoral count is discussed and it's been difficult for prosecutors who have investigated trump to get insider cooperation in the past. both in cases like this one that are related to the election and in cases related to his other dealings, he maintains fierce loyalty in those around him. if that bubble has burst and there are unindicted co-conspirators who are cooperating willis may flip some of these folks indicted alongside trump and be able to present a firsthand very detailed picture of this conduct to the jury that ultimately hears the case against donald trump. >> chuck rosenberg, i'm curious, the defendants have ten days to, quote, turn themselves in. what might be different in georgia in terms of process? what will you be looking for there and overall, what stands out to you in this nearly 100-page indictment? >> first, i agree with joyce, which is always a safe position, broad and sweeping indictment and the number of unindicted co-conspirators, mika, as joyce referred to is telling. the other thing that's really interesting to me is that the feds took a very different approach to their election interference case. mr. trump was the lone defendant in the federal case in d.c. with six unindicted co-conspirators. here he is 1 of 19 co-defendants with 30 unindicted co-conspirators. i don't mean to suggest one is wrong or one is right. they both may succeed. i suspect they will. a point joe made which i think is really important lots of people will say lots of things and folks like senator cruz, i don't mean to pick on him but he sort of volunteered. what they say has no meaning. there will be four trials unless he pleads guilty and that means there will be 48 people, four sets of juries, 12 people on each jury who will determine whether or not these charges are valid. that's it. it's not going to be me. it's not going to be senator cruz. it's not going to be anyone else. we won't qualify for any of these juries, 48 people in four jurisdictions will decide. prosecutors don't put words in an indictment unless they can prove it. so assuming they can prove it, mr. trump is in a lot of trouble, so are a whole bunch of other people too. that's one of the striking things about this newest indictment, the breadth and as joyce said, the sweeping nature and the number of those charged is fascinating and complicates the case but gives us rich details, something to follow in the months and perhaps years to come. >> donald trump is largely running for president to stay out of jail. the bank shot, if he were to win, the three federal cases, the federal cases against him he can make go away and tell the attorney general to stand down. he could even try if convicted already to self-pardon. we'll see if that holes up in courts but that's the theory, that this, this is a state case. he can't do that. he can't self-pardon. he can't make it go away. that's why those in trump world that i've been talking to for months know this case poses a particular danger, that the big lie, joe, could come and get donald trump here in a way that it maybe can't somewhere else. we can't emphasize this enough, the indictment paints trump as the leader of a vast, quote, criminal organization, which knowingly and willfully joined a consracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of trump, one of the members of the conspiracy a man once known as america's mayor, rudy giuliani, now part of this plot, a criminal organization for a man would once was president and wants to be again. >> well, and from what i've been told and just a little bit of reading and i'm sure others have seen this, but what causes even greater concern is he can't just talk to the governor. his supporters can't pressure the governor of georgia to pardon him, because georgia's one of only two states where the governor does not have the power to pardon. that power comes from a parole and clemency board, georgia state board of pardons and parole. so his situation even more complicated in the state of georgia if a jury of his peers find him guilty, then it's not going to be as simple as just putting pressure on governor kemp politically or having kemp's constituents do that because it's one of two states where a governor does not have the ability to pardon somebody who's been prosecuted. >> yeah, only ramps up the legal peril he faces and, greg, you're obviously the expert here on georgia politics. talk to us about this racketeering charge, the rico charge which seems so powerful and potent here and for donald trump perilous for all the reasons we just outlined, there's no easy way out for him this time around. >> yeah, that's what strikes me. this is not just a handful of indictments. these are indictments that allege a criminal enterprise involving 19 co-defendants, 41 charges, 30 unindicted co-conspirators, dozens of separate acts they -- it ranks from the high-profile cases we've talked about for years including the infamous phone call from donald trump to the secretary of state brad raffensperger and includes lesser known issues, the folks who were accused of illegally breaching elections equipment down in coffee county and the people charged with intimidating ruby freeman, an election staffer. some of the names of the suspects of the indicteds defendants we've been talking about were months, years now rudy giuliani, john eastman, mark meadows, donald trump, of course, but some of them are relatively new to the stage and that's what's so fascinating about this case. >> so false statements and solicitation of high ranking officials, state officials, they talk about georgia, the secretary of state, the speaker of the house. pushing them to violate their oaths of the georgia constitution and the united states constitution by unlawfully changing the outcome of the november 3rd, 2020 presidential election. here's that phone call that everyone has heard a number of times. today it takes very significant meaning. take a listen. >> i only need 11,000 votes. fellas, i need 11,000 votes. give me a break. so, look, all i want to do is this, i just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state. there's nothing wrong with saying that, you know, that you've recalculated. >> jonathan lemire mentioned the harassment and intimidation that took place, that's on page 17. also creation and distribution of false electoral college documents, the false documents were intended to disrupt and delay the joint session of congress on january 6th, 2021 in order to unlawfully change the outcome of the presidential election in favor of donald trump, similar schemes were executed by members of the enterprise in arizona, michigan, nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania and wisconsin. gene robinson, sweeping to say the least. >> absolutely sweeping and, you know, that phone call we just played with brad raffensperger, we've all heard it a million times, it features in the indictment that special counsel jack smith brought, but i think it is absolutely wrong to say that fani willis, the fulton county district attorney is replowing ground that jack smith has already plowed. in fact, this goes much deeper, and it's so much more granular and it details the alleged actions not only of donald trump but all those co-conspirators, and in just again granular detail talks about, for example, the interference with ballots and voting machines in coffee county, the intimidation of ruby freeman and shaye moss, the attempt to ruin their lives basically and it holds accountable not just donald trump but the others who helped in what fani willis has alleged was a corrupt enterprise of racketeering to steal the election and to deny millions of georgians their vote. i think there is great worth in this indictment just for the detail it puts out there and perhaps we don't need a similar indictment in every single state where he did this, but i'm awfully glad we have it in this one because we see exactly how this -- i'm just going to call it this evil scheme worked. >> yeah. >> well, you know, it's very important what you just said, fani willis did far more than just replow the ground that jack smith's already replowed, another big difference in this, mika, is the fact that andy mccarthy in "the new york post" yesterday afternoon before the indictments were coming down, he talked about the strengths and weaknesses of each case like a lot of people said the manhattan case seemed to be very weak but then he said -- then he said the documents case was the strongest case because it's just all there -- >> black and white, yeah. >> like jack goldsmith also said in last week's chilling op-ed in "the new york times," those are actions donald trump committed after he was president of the united states, and they've got him dead to right there. he had no right to steal the documents. he stole the documents. they've got the testimony. so, that's the tightest case, and then it was very interesting when talking about the georgia case, he said fani willis actually has some advantages over jack smith because jack smith, he's got trump's abhorrent conduct but he doesn't have statutes that fit quite as tightly. in georgia, fani willis charged the former president under statutes specifically drafted for this sort of activity, so far from sort of going over again what jack smith did nationally, she actually has more relevant statutes to the improper, possibly illegal conduct of donald trump, because of those georgia statutes, and, therefore, that's why andy mccarthy, a very conservative journalist said other than the docs case, the georgia case is the strongest because it's on a state level for a state who actually anticipated in the future behavior like this and they have specific penalties for that behavior. >> a lot of people were asking why is this taking so long? i mean, what's going on in georgia. when you look at this and read this, what she's describing is a criminal enterprise, she calls it the enterprise and we're talking about and i'll continue page 18 solicitation of high ranking united states department of justice officials, solicitation of the vice president of the united states, and unlawful breach of election equipment in georgia and elsewhere and it goes on to describe the cover-up and to katty kay, jonathan's point, this is georgia, he can't run, he can't hide, he can't pardon himself and he cannot avoid going to jail if convicted of these charges. >> yeah, which is why the georgia case has been the one that always worried people in trump world that i've been in contact with over the last 24 hours. even if you wong the election potentially, he would still have this hanging over him, you know, the sequencing of all of this and would love to get joyce to weigh in will be fascinating. does the january 6th case go first, the federal case? it's simpler, one defendant. if that then were to push the georgia case to when, to after the campaign has all been concluded and election day and then if trump were to win in 2024, then what happens to the georgia case? does it wait until after the presidency or would fani willis be able to bring the georgia case to trial while he was president and if he were convicted then what happens because he can't pardon himself? there are still a lot of questions we still have around the sequencing of this so i don't know. maybe joyce could weigh in on that because that seems to me critical as well, how this all plays out. >> right, so the sequencing will be interesting to watch. trump last a full dance card to state the obvious. i would look for judges and prosecutors to coordinate. willis has a lot of complexity in this. lots of moving parts. people who may challenge being tried together. i think we'll see a relatively quick effort to remove this case to federal court. we saw that earlier in manhattan. trump's lawyers will argue that he at least should be tried in federal court where he has unique federal defenses to assert because of the role he played as president. this one won't go to trial on the six-month schedule that willis said last night she wanted to see. >> chuck rosenberg, talk for a minute about the complexities of a case involving -- put aside for a second involving a former president of the united states, involving 19 defendants who are charged as being part of a racketeering conspiracy. how does a prosecutor think about presenting such a case and what sort of delays might we expect and what sort of complications? >> yeah, good questions, eugene, so 19 co-defendants means 19 sets of defense counsel. it means 19 opening statements and 19 closing arguments. it means that every government witness would be in theory cross-examined 19 times. now, if past is prologue, a lot of these defendants will plead guilty, will cooperate, will testify at trial. but it's a big cumbersome, complex case. by the way, when georgia brought rico charges against a group of atlanta teachers and school superintendents, i think the number who went to trial were about 10 or 12, eugene. that trial i think took about six or seven months and so it's more cumbersome not just because you have more people in the courtroom and more people talking, it just takes longer. and so there's going to be a lot of coordination that's required by the judge, by all of these counsel, you know, by court personnel and it's just bigger and bulkier and more cumbersome. how long does it eventually take? when does it eventually set? i don't know but i don't believe it will be fast or soon. >> so, in an appearance on fox news last night, former republican speaker newt gingrich criticized the grand juries involved in donald trump's indictments and encouraged gop lawmakers in the house to go after the funding for special counsel jack smith's office. >> if you're in a jury pool which was 19-1 for biden over trump, that is not a fair jury. that's not an honest jury. that's not a jury of your peers. that is a rigged game by a really bad person. i really believe that the republicans in the house should cut off jack smith's money. i think that his last day on the payroll should be september 30th. they should do whatever it takes to close down this entire anti-constitutional ruthless breaking of the law. >> so, joyce, on page 20, willis really maps out how this criminal enterprise worked and it goes through it very methodically and chronologically on the fourth day of november, trump does a speech declaring victory then rudy giuliani does this telephone call and leaves an 83-second voice mail message for unindicted co-conspirator 2 making statements concerning fraud, act 3, he has his press conference with the other attorneys, i don't know if that one was in the back alley or not. and then act 4, again, more very specific details on how they were pushing this lie, the big lie. and then act 5, donald trump and mark meadows met with the majority leader of the michigan senate and the michigan speaker of the house and other michigan legislators in the oval office, the meeting was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy and then mark meadows trying to get a meeting and sent text messages to different people to try and get pot. us to, quote, chat with them, another act in furtherance of the conspiracy and it goes on and on and on and it gets worse and worse. it's kind of hard to hear people like newt gingrich and ted cruz trying to fight this when you're looking at an indictment that lays out crimes and whether it's hunter biden or former president donald trump, it's kind of important to let the law play out and see what happens here. we are looking at 100 pages of a complete assault on our democracy. >> so to chuck's point earlier, this case will be decided by a jury in a courtroom that will hear the evidence and be instructed on the law. that's where the decision will be made. not on fox news, not anyplace else. and it's increasingly clear that donald trump's perfect phone call wasn't and as a result of that phone call, georgia prosecutors did what prosecutors and investigators do, they looked into whether or not a crime had been committed and instead of finding something specific that was limited to that one phone call, they found this ongoing pattern of conduct reaching across the country and what it comes down to when you read this indictment carefully which none of us have done yet, we've been through it but as you begin to look at the allegations, it becomes very clear that donald trump used fake claims of fraud to try to perpetrate election fraud on the country. that's the heart of the charges here. someday one hopes that people in the republican party will take a deep breath and the fever dream will break and they will begin to see this for what this is, because continuing to defend this conduct, it's past the point where it's consciousable. she said the statements are just allegations. donald trump remains cloaked in a presumption of innocence as do his co-defendants. and that is true in the court of law sense but in the political arena, we are now well past the point where anyone can maintain that this conduct was democratic, was fair, was legitimate, that's just no longer the case based on what we know. >> so, greg, the conduct was abhorrent. i think most people if you read andy mccarthy yesterday, again, a very conservative former prosecutor, will agree that the conduct is abhorrent, and, yet, he as well as jack goldsmith who similar has never been a trump defender, in fact, he's been openly hostile to what donald trump has done to the presidency and constitution, also is concerned about the political impact down the road, the political scar tissue of all this, so i have a question for you, maybe you can help explain this. their concern and my concern also, it's not that trump got indicted, it's that he got indicted in one of the most democratic counties in the state of georgia and does beg the question, what happens if -- i was just checking this, holmes county, florida, northwest florida went 87% for donald trump, what happens if for some reason a county prosecutor decides to prosecute a democratic president in the future brings the case there where 87% of the population voted for donald trump and then holds that president or ex-president to account for activity and, again, i foe people are saying, oh, but donald trump -- again, i agree. what donald trump did was abhorrent and appears illegal. at the same time my question to you, why did this get brought in one of the most democratic counties in the state? did other county prosecutors have the ability to bring these charges as well but just didn't do it? >> well, the main reason, joe, is because fulton county covers so much capital and so much of what happened happened there. fani willis said at the beginning of the process when she first heard brad raffensperger's phone call she wished he lived in middle georgia, in macon, very far from where we are right now, but he didn't. he lived in north fulton county so she had to follow the fact, follow the law and that led her to begin the process of bringing these charges, but that was the only thing that happened in fulton county. when donald trump called the speaker of the georgia house, when he called the lieutenant governor, when he called the leader of the state senate, the governor of georgia, all of that happens in the capital of georgia. all that happened in the seat of fulton county, atlanta, and so that's the reason why, but i'd also say, you know, when we hear, when we're going to see motions to move this to federal court, one of the reasons why, of course, is because donald trump's lawyers want on a broader jury pool and more favorable jury pool so you'll see that but i know we have a tendency to look at a pardon but republicans here in georgia too, it's not so easy for them to write off what happened, to dismiss it because they lived through it and saw what we saw with the rest of the world saw, they've heard the phone call that you played, they've read the reports in the ajc and seen them on msnbc of all of donald trump's efforts to overturn the election and i think it hit close to home to them. we'll see how the jury pool looks but those are the reasons why this was brought by fani willis in the seat of one of the bluest counties in georgia. >> so, greg bluestein, thank you very much for being on and chuck rosenberg and joyce vance, as always, it's great to have your insight. we appreciate it. a long night it was and still ahead on "morning joe," much more on the new indictment brought against donald trump on racketeering charges in the state of georgia. how the former president's fourth criminal indictment could play out in court and what it means for his political future. we'll have live reporting from fulton county throughout the morning and we'll be joined by a georgia state senator who testified before the special grand 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(avo) ask your doctor about once-weekly mounjaro. i was surprised. i had -- >> i was a member of -- when i pushed back on the lies that they were bringing before us during that hearing instantaneously i became a target online and i say a bomb got dropped on my life because our family ended up havi have police protection for the next month or so. >> so, gene, you can take the next question but when you look at what has happened to some of these people's lives and also many are mentioned here, many republicans, as well as democrats and just innocent citizens who held the line in the process and then if you read in the indictment of the chairwoman of the republican party, ronna mcdaniel is mentioned because trump and john eastman reached out to her and they wanted her to figure out a way to get certain individuals to cast electoral votes for donald trump even though he lost and she continues. i mean, how does she continue to protect donald -- when you're seeing and hearing just like these other people that this doesn't feel right, how about let's not even say this feels like a aycrime, maybe you can't identify that conversation yourself as a crime, not sure how, ronna, but at the same time you know something is wrong. you see s with your eyes what hs doing and you get calls like that and you can't stand up. >> exactly. what strikes me about this indictment is, you know, you see that the two levels of this, you see in washington, in the country, ronna mcdaniel and others, republican senators, republican members of the house aref buying into this big election lie for political reasons, right? it's all political and they're making these grand, sweeping statements that are lies, but here you see the effect on people, you see what it did to people. you see individuals who were involved and what it looked like on the ground and it's very different and so my question for the senator is that because this is so focused and so granular, how is this -- how do you think this will be received in georgia reallyd across political linesi mean, obviously the state is polarized like the american electorate is polarized and, you know, there are people for whom donald trump can never do any wrong, but what do you think the impact will be broadly as the dust settles here? >> well, thank you for the question. you know, i think you in your question hit on part of the answer, which is that our state and our country do remain completely polarized and we just have a split in what information people have. you know, it wouldn't have been so many decades ago that any indictment would have been viewed as disqualifying, not just by elected officials but also by the voters, by the people, and we've devolved into this media echo system on the right where there's no sense of shared reality, which is a huge problem facing our country as we try to solve problems, but, you know, i do think that there are the swing voters in the suburbs andsu the exurbs in atlanta for whom this will be meaningful, though they did live through it they'll understand it was a conspiracy to try to disenfranchise millions of georgia voters by someone who had been -- who had sworn to uphold, protect and defend the constitution, but for many others nothing will shake them out of their belief that donald trump simply did no wrong, that the election actually was fraudulent or stolen and that this is some sort of political witch-hunt. >> yeah, democrat georgia state senator elena parent. we've been talking about these two realities and really there's the politicald reality when yo see republicans going out talking about hunter biden, talking about whatever else and their argument is up is down and, for instance, the argument that the worst things get for hunter biden, the worst they get for donald trump. it's just the opposite. the hunter biden nonsense getting ginned up the more legal trouble donald trump gets in. we're not having a shouting contest over conspiracy theories. we're not even having a political debate. donald trump is now in four courts, a charged criminal defendant, andcr he's going to judged not by what he puts on truth social and how many people he can lie to, he's going to be judged by ato jury of his peers and, you know, four different venues, one of those venues is where he livedse most of his li, one of those venues is where he worked when he was in the white house, one of those venues is where he lives now in south florida, and the fourth venue we got last night, georgia. >> yeah, four very different venues butif all posing real peril, legalal and political, t donald trump. you're right, republicans were out with their predictable attacks lastle night and their defenses ginning up the hunter biden nonsense, the 2024 candidates with exceptions of asa hutchinson and chris christie attacking doj and this prosecutor in georgia for their two-tiered system of justice and vivek ramaswamy offering to serve as his lawyer when a man you're tryingaw to beat for the republican nomination but that's not where donald trump's future and fate lies but we should also note, of course, as we talk about the cases of ruby freeman and shaye moss trying to do their civic duty whose lives were endangered, afraid to open the door of their house, that -- those storm clouds haven't passed and there is real concern that there could be acts of violence around one of these trials or around the upcoming election and how hard it's going to be to get people to do their civic duty, to step into those election worker rolls and be a poll worker again because of the harassment they may receive from followers of donald trump who believe he won the last time in 2020 and believe this time around the entire legal system is out to get him so donald trump's fate very much in the line by juries of his peers, but they're certainly not the only people who are going to, you know, have potentially very difficult months ahead because of his lies. >> for sure and obviously you're following, jonathan le meyer, what he tweetson out or truths t on his truth social. i know he's definitely already attacked fani willis, calling her names. more to come, i guess, but in these four cases also the defamation suit and some other legal problems that he has in each one, judges will make decisions as to whether or not bail should be revoked or whether or not he should be sanctioned in some way or something else if he continues to behave this way like everybody who has been on the show so far in the first 47 minutes t of the show said this isn't about ted cruz or newt gingrich or what they say about hunter biden, this will be dealt with in the courts and the courts will deal with him accordingly in four separate cases, good luck. coming up the former lieutenant governor of georgia had a message for the republican party after testifying yesterday, we'll play for you those comments. meanwhile, donald trump and his campaign went back to their playbook right after the indictment came down. we'll explain more on that straight ahead on "morning joe." 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um, it's called commitment. could you turn down the volume? here, you can try. get way more into what your into when you stream on the xfinity 10g network. 52 past the hour. some other stories we're following. defense secretary lloyd austin was in annapolis, maryland, where he spoke at the ceremony marking the departure of the top ranked officer in the navy. the navy is now the third u.s. military branch without a senate confirmed leader. secretary austin offered his strongest words yet regarding the blockage of military promotions by republican senator tommy tuberville. take a look. >> i want to take a moment to mark a painful milestone. as you know, more than 300 nominations for our outstanding journal and flag officers are now being held up in the united states senate. that includes our top uniform leaders in our next chief of naval operations. because of this blanket hold starting today for the first time in the history of the department of defense, three of our military services are operating without senate confirmed leaders. this is unprecedented. it is unnecessary, and it is unsafe. and this sweeping hold is undermining america's readiness and hindering our ability to retain our best officers and it is up ending the lives of far too many american military families. our troops deserve better. our military families deserve better, and our allies and partners deserve better and our national security deserves better. >> you know, katty, i'm often dismissive of how dysfunctional politics are, we've been through it before, i'll go through it again. but it is hard not to look at a system that allows one senator to stop for the first time in american history to stop the united states marines, the army, and the navy have having a leader. again, for the marines it's 150 years since they haven't had a commandant in charge so this is affecting the readiness of three of our four main branches of government and it's just -- first of all, it's devastating for readiness, also, though, it must be a bad, bad look for the united states of america among its allies. >> yeah, i mean look at lloyd austin is a pretty low-key secretary of defense and for him to come out and say it is not acceptable to have the three branches of the armed services without a chief officer for them is and the way he put it was interesting that this is not safe, it's not safe for the united states, and that it's not fair. it's not fair to the military members, the troops themselves and not fair to their families and, of course, the irony is we're in in alice and wonder land world, meant to be the strong supporters and often campaigns on being strong supporters of the military, indeed, there are people running for president on the republican side who are campaigning on how joe biden has undermined the u.s. military and has proposed cuts to the u.s. military and, yet, we have at the moment one republican senator who is actually having a real impact, material impact on the lives and actions of those who are serving in the u.s. >> well, and gene robinson, look at what happened across nato, stronger than ever. it's extraordinary and what's happening in asia, the stronger presence than ever in asia than ever, look at what tommy tuberville is doing, letting politics get in the way of readiness and this is the same guy that went on a fox news show and according to headlines said that he was spouting putin's talking points. i don't know if you'd say that or if you'd say that he was providing aid and comfort to the enemy but there is no doubt what he was saying was music to vladimir putin's ears saying that ukraine can never win and we teed to stop funding ukraine. at the same time he's damaging u.s. military readiness in a way that even his own republicans in the senate colleagues and members of alabama, voting members of alabama understand as well. this is really destructive. >> it is destructive, and it's amazing to me that those republican colleagues in the senate haven't pulled him aside and said knock it off. stop this now or there will be consequences. mitch mcconnell ought to assign him a new office that's in a basement closet until he relents on this ridiculous stunt. >> well, coming up on "morning joe" at the top of the hour we are following the latest indictment of the former president. it's just incredible the brow-beating of his vice president. still ahead, another all-star legal panel joins us at the top of the hour to break down the racketeering charges brought against donald trump in the state of georgia. "morning joe" will be right back. back y boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire ♪ chevy silverado has what it takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. the indictment alleges that rather than abide by georgia's legal process for election challenges rather than abide by georgia's legal process for election challenges, the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise to overturn georgia's presidential election result. it is -- >> another historic and somber moment for the country. that was fulton county district attorney fani willis late last night announcing the fourth indictment of former president donald trump in as many months. trump and 18 others were named in a sweeping 41-count indictment targeting alleged attempts to overturn the state's 2020 election results, district attorney willis announced the charges just before midnight. >> i make decisions in this office based on the facts and the law. the law is completely nonpartisan. that's how decisions are made in every case. to date this office has indicted since i've been sitting as a district attorney over 12,000 cases, this is the 11th rico indictment and followed the same process. we look at the facts, the law and we bring charges. >> so the indictment charged under georgia's anti-racketeering law accuses of former president and his allies of running a criminal organization that, quote, knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of trump. district attorney willis said she would give all defendants until august 25th to turn themselves in and would push to go to trial within six months and welcome back to "morning joe." it is tuesday, august 15th. katty kay, jonathan lemire and eugene robinson are still with us and joining the conversation we have nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann, former u.s. assistant attorney glenn kirschner joins us and andrew weissman, legal analyst, and, joe, i will say, i'll let you take it to the experts but i'm curious, just your overall takeaway from reading this indictment compared to the three others behind it? >> well, it is certainly far more sweeping than jack smith's january 6th indictment which you sensed he tried to make that as tight and narrowed and focused as possible. that is not the case in georgia. you get a sense that fani willis understands with so many co-defendants, this is going to be a long trial and she wanted to make sure that fulton county gets their arms around all of it. certainly a sweeping indictment. i will say, too, again, following up on what andy mccarthy wrote yesterday in "the new york post," this georgia indictment is a bit different from jack smith's january 6th indictment, because in that indictment he got some existing statutes and did his best to make the fact pattern fit in to those charges. we'll see if a jury agrees with him that he did that in a way that would lead to a conviction of donald trump. here, though, john, you have as andy mccarthy wrote in "the post," you have a georgia state tut that was written specifically anticipating this type of behavior by politicians and so a much tighter fit legally and since georgia is one of the only states in the country where the governor cannot pardon somebody who is convicted also should be far more concerned to people around donald trump than i believe based on all the reporting i've heard it is. they're far more concerned about georgia than just about any other case. >> not a lot of things that you, joe scarborough and i have in common and this is one of them for the last 2 1/2 years we've been thinking that this case could be the most significant case facing trump for some of the reasons you just said. you know, it's amazing to think back, the story of that phone call broke on january the 3rd of 2021, three days before the insurrection, before the capitol riot and, you know, we've been hearing that audio ever since, it's the one thing that's been lacking in all the rest of these cases, having that audio which as always so damning that we asked the question, if this isn't illegal, what is illegal? and all that's happened in those two years is fani willis has built this massive case added an enormous amount of detail. why city don't know all the things she knows but we can see from the scale of the indictment that what was kind of prima facie automatic for two years is now much, much worse and rattled off a bunch of reasons. i won't steal andrew weissman's thunder but i'm sure he will talk about the possibility this is the one case where donald trump will find it very difficult to even be given bail because of the way that the laws are in georgia. it is a staggering thing what happened yesterday. in a presidency or post presidency full of these things there's been little more staggering than the sweeping scale of this indictment. >> andrew weissman, i'd love to get a sense of what you hi is going to play out in the next ten days given that all of these defendants have ten days to turn themselves in. will things be different in georgia in terms of the process technically? i'm also curious about georgia itself. joe mentioned, you know, the governor of georgia can't do pardons. can a president who is convicted of crimes in georgia be sent to jail? are there any other differences? i'm curious for republicans who choose to live in a world of disinformation, i'm wondering if that world ends in the state of georgia with this indictment. >> great question. so, one thing that's unusual here compared to the other three cases which is already a remarkable thing that we're talking about, four criminal cases again the former president for crimes he committed allegedly before, during and after his presidency, is that fani willis actually got arrest warrants for each of these people so she could actually dictate the terms of when everyone needs to surrender by. she didn't issue a summons, a summons says you need to come but there's a whole negotiation about when that will be. here she said you need to turn yourselves in by next friday and if you don't, obviously she has the power to go ahead and enforce the arrest warrant. that obviously won't be necessary. i think the big issue and the reason georgia may be different in a way that helps her and potentially helps jack smith is that if you are anyone who is just indicted other than donald trump, your incentive to cooperate just went way up and the reason is, you really can't bank on a pardon, even if donald trump wins the presidency in many ways that's almost your worst nightmare because you still will have a case. donald trump will have arguments about why the case should be delayed while he is president, but you will be left holding the bag facing trial and huge legal fees and obviously the potential of going to jail if you are convicted and if donald trump doesn't become president, then you are also going to be on trial and facing those same risks, so the ability to not get pardoned, which, you know, might help donald trump if he wins doesn't help any of those other 18 people who now have -- the normal incentives to cooperate when you're facing significant charges. >> yeah, jonathan lemire, talk about georgia, if you could, and mark meadows in this, i could see him having a really hard time with this and trying very hard to get out of any type of jail time, whatever else might come his way. he has been at the center of the storm. >> yeah, meadows, of course, with donald trump on january 6th, meadows listening in on that so-called perfect phone call with georgia's secretary of state. he was with the former president every step of the way as he tried to overturn the 2020 election results read in on eastman's plan, the plot with the vice president and the rest and know he is one of the unnamed co-conspirators in jack smith's january 6th investigation, so, of course, is rudy giuliani and glenn, the stunning fall from grace for once credibly phone as america's mayor now facing criminal charges, rudy giuliani, whether it's giuliani or meadows or jenna ellis or sidney powell, the list goes on and on and on. please weigh in on the other names beyond trump. two-parter, one would be, do you think some of them, indeed, may be ink declined to cooperate? but secondly, was there anybody whose name didn't appear yesterday that struck you that might think, well, that person might already be helping out? >> yeah, jonathan, great questions and there are so many unindicted co-conspirators that are referenced sort of peppered throughout this 98-page indictment. it's kind of hard to figure out who they all are and whether they are, in fact, cooperating witnesses, which, you know, when we see when old prosecutors and criminal litigators see that term unindicted co-conspirator in an indictment, i think our mind automatically leaps to, oh, they must be cooperating. i don't think we can yet say how many cooperators fani willis may have cultivated and may have the benefit of the evidence they can bring to the table and the prosecution of the 19 charged defendants. with respect to the indictment generally, i think it's really interesting to see kind of the tactical choices made by jack smith versus the tactical choices made by fani willis. you know, jack smith's prosecution, the prosecution in washington, d.c., not to be confused with the federal prosecution in florida for the documents crimes, seems to be built for speed and alacrity to the extent anything in the justice department can move with alacrity because it is simply one charged defendant and it seems like jack smith jettisoned some crimes that some of us were expecting to see like the insurrection which was one of the crimes referred by the january 6th house select committee, and he seems determined to get that case to trial quickly whereas fani willis' case seems to be built as a comprehensive vehicle, two different approaches. i think once i saw mark meadows as a charged defendant in the georgia indictment, my mind again immediately leapt to, well, maybe he's not cooperating and, yet, given that fani willis said she wasn't really coordinating or even communicating with jack smith, i don't think that's an indication that mark meadows is absolutely or necessarily not cooperating in jack smith's case, so so many questions, some are answered by this indictment, but a whole lot more questions remain unanswered. >> to former georgia lieutenant governor geoff duncan testified before the grand jury yesterday despite warnings from donald trump not to do so. afterward duncan told reporters the investigation was a pivot point for republicans and the country as a whole. >> my hope is that americans believe us. my hope is that republicans believe us that this election was fair and legal and i certainly think this is a pivot point for us, you know, as a republican that cares about the future of this country this is our moment to hit the reset button, to launch into a gop 2.0, one that focuses on policies that matter not lie, not tweets, but policies that matter, that meet america at the kitchen table and that's really what this is all about. >> gene, that's a republican, a rising star, former rising star in the republican party before trump he probably would have been the next governor before trumpism affected the party. i was interested by greg's response to my question about why this happened in fulton county, one of the most democratic counties and, of course, he did talk about the reason why, that's because that's where most of the activity -- illegal activity took place, but then he said something else, he said there are a lot of republicans in the state of georgia that are just as disturbed by this behavior. usually i'd be skeptical but then i remember the massive victory in the primary that the secretary of state brad raffensperger had, the massive primary victory in the state that the georgia governor had after trump basically called them enemies one and two. they won in massive landslides, which suggests georgia republicans are not alabama republicans, are not oklahoma republicans. they actually -- these are enough republicans who actually see what donald trump did and believe that it is illegal. >> yes, republican officials in georgia from the governor down to raffensperger, geoff duncan, gabe sterling, they stood firm against trump's attempt to overturn the election. they stood firm for the integrity of the election, the electoral process, they've refused to disenfranchise georgia voters and certainly should be commended for that, and i don't know how deep that goes in the georgia republican party, but it certainly is there at the top, and my question for john heilemann is this, you know, i was watching the wait and then the release of the indictment last night, and there was all this security on the streets of atlanta, and nobody showed up. there have been no pro-trump crowds showing up at his indictments or his arraignments. to sort of intimidate the justice department or whatever they would try to do. we just haven't been seeing that, and i wonder, is that -- does this represent a kind of fatigue or am i reading too much into that? obviously the trump fever has not broken nationwide, but is there something to that that we're not seeing, this popular mobilization to defend donald trump? >> well, i mean, gene, i think there's a couple things to say to that. one is, as you say, it's not a nationwide thing. you think about where trump's strength in polling is in this republican nomination fight which by any rational metrics is obviously counter to any republican interest in winning the general election, but there it is, he's stronger -- as strong as anybody who's ever sought the republican nomination has been at this point in a cycle. you know, i was down in the rally in waco and there's still a lot of fever for donald trump and also this thing that if you are a potential backer of the president, the kind of person who might be inclined towards violence or towards unruly protest, you know, you have the example of what we've seen, the prosecution of the january 6th rioters and people who know more about this than i do but in the right wing chat forums a lot of stay away from these events when he gets indicted because, you know, the cops are looking to take us down, blah, blah, blah, i go back to something you said a second ago into the larger question, which is it's obviously true what you said about brian kemp and about brad raffensperger in 2022 but step up, sit back further, 2020, the data in 2020 was incredibly compelling in georgia where the president at the time, donald trump, underperformed republicans across the state. he was -- you had state, you had republican congressmen, state legislators, carl rove has incredible depth on this question when he tries to make the argument for why trump is unelectable. you believe in 2024 it's because of the fact that there are all those cobb county republicans in georgia who are embarrassed by donald trump, who didn't want him in 2020 and it's hard to believe that those suburban republicans who turned away from trump stuck with the republican party, stuck with kemp, stuck with raffensperger later, those suburban republicans now witnessing this spectacle are going to be more inclined to vote for donald trump in 2024 than they were in 2020, in fact, probably almost certainly they'll be less inclined and another reason why donald trump may -- never say never but, man, it's going to be really hard for donald trump to win georgia and without georgia, very hard to become a republican who wins 270 electoral votes. >> well, and, mika, if you look at the history of georgia since 2020, it squares up, again, i know a lot of people don't like anecdotal evidence in politics, i do. i live by it from the first door i knocked on back in january of 1994. >> yeah. >> i've heard from a good number of people i know in the suburbs of atlanta that they just will not vote for donald trump. they will not vote for joe biden and they will not vote for a democrat, but they will not never vote for donald trump, and you look back at the history, not only of brian kemp and brad raffensperger doing so well in the primary, but look what georgia voters did in 2020. they elected one of the most progressive members to the united states senate from georgia. they elected warnock when senate control was on the line. they stayed home because they had contempt for donald trump, who really got in the way of that race in particular and then you look at '22, the same thing happened and not only did they reject donald trump in the 2020 presidential election because they stayed home, they did it with those two senate races, they did it again and stayed home when donald trump tapped herschel walker to be his hand appointed candidate in '22 so we've seen this time and time again, republicans in the state of georgia, again, not going left, just not going toward trump and the impact has been devastating, especially to republicans in the united states senate. >> look, if the first three indictments, if donald trump somehow could delude himself into believing he can bluster his way through the first three indictments and treat them like "new york post" headlines maybe he can delude himself and sit in a wonderland all alone, a wizard surrounded by sycophants. georgia's voters are different and things just got real for the former president on a number of levels. let's bring in nbc news correspondent blayne alexander who joins us live from outside the fulton county courthouse. you've been following this investigation from the start. what can you tell us about the terms of surrender? >> reporter: well, mika, we know that right now nothing is off the table. you heard the d.a. last night basically say that those 19 people have until noon of next friday. ten days to come down here to atlanta and turn themselves in. now, what exactly that looks like, i understand from talking to my sources that it is going to be a conversation that involves a number of people. talking about negotiations between the d.a.'s office, between the attorneys for these individuals, between the judge who's involved in overseeing this case and between the sheriff who's handling all of the security for all of this. all of those people are going to be involved in these conversations but we do know from talking to the sheriff that, again, nothing is off the table. that means potential mug shot, that means potential fingerprints, that means they'll question over where these individuals are going to surrender. will they come downtown to the courthouse right behind me or will they have to go to the county jail, called rice street. will they actually have to go to a jail and surrender. all are thing tass are questions this morning. i will tell you, though, from talking with fani willis, from talking with the sheriff, their posture is they will not treat any high-profile defendant, be it the former president, be it any other famous person any differently than they would treat everyday citizens making it clear and they don't want to make any special allowances for individuals so that is certainly interesting when you think about, hey, might they have to go down to the jail and what might this look like? the other thing, mika, the surrender and the arraignment are most likely and usually on different days, so when we talk about what the surrender will look like, there are also questions of how the arraignment will be handled. i've been told zoom is a possibility and could be done virtually. these people may not have to come back down here and show their faces again. the other thing we're watching what she said yesterday, wanting to try all of these individuals together, again, there's precedent for this. she has tried rico cases before and is in the middle of high-profile one right now and certainly not out of her wheelhouse or comfort zone, mika. >> all right, nbc's blayne alexander, thank you so much for your reporting. we greatly appreciate it. and katty, there has been a lot of talk and chatter from republicans about how donald trump is being indicted and all these places that voted overwhelmingly against him. i do think we should quickly look at the venues that have been chosen here. the first one, the first case where he got indicted was manhattan where donald trump spent the majority of his adult life and where the sexual assault or as the judge said where the rape took place, then you have mar-a-lago where the seizing of the documents took place and the fbi and then you have washington, d.c. where donald trump's most important four years, the most important four years of his life took place and, again, where the actions took place and then, of course, georgia, fulton county, georgia where the so-called perfect phone call took place so for these republicans saying that donald trump should be tried in west virginia or oklahoma, well, maybe if he wants to be tried in those states he should commit crimes in those states, because in this case these venues are actually the most legally appropriate venues based on his own actions. >> yeah, i mean, as fani willis said, it's about the facts, the law and the charges and the facts and the law, and the charges in each of those different cases involves crimes that were allegedly committed in those jurisdictions which is why they had to bring those trials exactly where they brought them. this is not random and as you say he could have committed them somewhere else and might have been charged somewhere else. i've been texting over the course of the morning with somebody who is pretty close to president trump just to get a sense of the president's mood. he is saying he's mad about this but is prepared. in the case of georgia, the preparation appears to me to be from what i'm being told delay as far as possible, win the election and hope the governor of georgia would pardon president trump because obviously it's not a federal crime so he wouldn't be able to pardon himself if he won and, andrew weissman, does that sound to you like a plausible -- the only path plausible at this point for donald trump? i mean, having read what you've read and the facts as we know them and having the tapes and having had the testimony already of ruby and shaye, the election workers, does there seem to be any other possible defense for donald trump and would a pardon from the georgia governor be something, do you think, that's possible or likely for him if he wins the election? >> so i do think he's going to do everything to throw sand in the gears of this case coming to trial any time soon and obviously as has been mentioned if you bring a case with 19 defendants you're aware that you can't go to trial really quickly the way jack smith is trying to do and likely will be able to do in d.c. i think we're going to see motions to remove the case to federal court. we saw donald trump try to do that in manhattan. that didn't succeed. but georgia has different facts so that will be litigated. we could see donald trump trying to invoke the new law that's coming into effect that permits georgia to remove fani willis from the case. we could see claims that the president, former president is immune from this case, i mean, all sorts of arguments to try to slow this down. the issue, though, of a state pardon is a little bit complicated because at least under current law, the georgia governor does not have that power, unlike many, many other states, instead there is a board that makes those decisions and it's required that you serve the sentence in order to be eligible for that board to give you a pardon, now, all of these laws could change. who is on the board could change, but it's not something that a new president trump can count on especially if you have a governor who is maybe one of the witnesses against you in that trial and is certainly no friend of yours politically, so that's something that, yes, it makes sense that he will try to delay the case, but i'm not sure he's going to be able to bank on getting a state pardon. >> andrew weissman and glenn kirschner, thank you very much for being on this morning and still ahead on "morning joe," we'll be joined by former district attorney in georgia, for more insight on how the legal process could play out in that state and what's different. plus, two republican senators who were once political rivals of donald trump continue to defend and deflect amid the former president's mounting legal problems. we'll show you what they had to say. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. how can you sleep on such a firm setting? 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( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. we want to turn to an update on the devastating situation off the coast of the hawaiian island of maui. officials report at least 99 people have died as a result of the fires. local police will begin releasing their names later today. the death toll is expected to rise as cadaver dogs continue to search the area. by some estimates, the economic damage of these wildfires could reach $7 billion, which could trigger a local recession there. meanwhile in washington, fema's director says the federal government has the right number of people on the ground to assist in response efforts. the director said the agency is focused on getting critical needs, assistance funds which provide for food, water, medical supplies and more to the people who need them. eugene, you've been following this for your latest column. tell us more about this. how this played out and some of the chaos when -- in the first day of in that i think people are still trying to get their arms around. >> yeah, they sure are, and what a tragedy, you know, we still don't know what sparked this deadly fire. we do know that it was aided and abetted by extreme weather events that are consistent with what scientists have been telling us about climate change and its effects, the effects or cause, there was no drought in maui in may and by the end of june there was extreme to severe, some places moderate drought across the whole island. there were these freakishly high winds caused by an unusually strong high pressure system to the north and unusually powerful hurricane passing to the south. these are the kinds of things, unusual things that are happening in combination that we didn't used to see and we are starting to see frequently and we need to realize that the unusual and the freakish in terms of the weather is not -- these are not thousand-year events. some of these are 50-year events. some are 10 or 15-year events and happen much more frequently because of what we have done to the planet and we need to start internalizing that and we need to start adjusting our behavior and sort of hardening our systems against what we have already done to the climate and i think that's going to be one of the lessons out of this tragedy. >> could not agree more. coming up we'll speak with someone who knows the georgia legal system as well as anyone, the latest on former president donald trump's fourth indictment next on "morning joe." in your e spend category. hi. ♪♪ you don't have to keep tabs on rotating categories... this is the only rotating i care about. ... or activate anything to earn. your cash back automatically adjusts for you. can i get a cucumber water? earn 5% cash back that automatically adjusts to your top eligible spend category, up to $500 spent each billing cycle with the citi custom cash℠ card. i love it... [voice vibrating] stop right there! this week, get the denny's super slam starting at $7.99. hungry for all your breakfast favorites? when you want america's biggest breakfast starting at $7.99... at denny's, it's diner time. now open really late. these are politicized persecutions through prosecution. we the people, you all get to decide who governs, not the federal police state. if he is convicted of these politicized prosecutions in the interest of moving in country forward, yes, i will pardon him. >> oh, my god. 2024 republican hopeful vivek ramaswamy saying during a town hall last night that he would pardon donald trump if he himself is elected president and if trump is found guilty in one of the cases against him. but in georgia that power wouldn't rest with the sitting president or even the governor of that state. just for a moment here, a little, i don't know, tip for apologists, some fox news hosts, you know, you might want to read this. instead of like holding it up like a prop and throwing it down and screaming hunter, actually read it, read through it, every word. there are 161 acts laid out for you that the president and his cohorts carried out, there are his tweets, there are words that he said that you heard in his speeches, backed up by criminal acts and this is an indictment that is to be taken seriously and if it is backed up by evidence, he could be convicted and the question is, do you really want to be affiliated with this criminal enterprise? do you? good luck with that. here now to explain is someone who knows the georgia legal system very well. former dekalb county district attorney gwen keys-fleming and perhaps you could help some of the folks i was addressing why georgia might be a little different. why a pardon even in georgia doesn't come easily and it takes a lot of time. could we start there? >> sure, so georgia is one of the rare states where the sitting governor does not have the ability to automatically pardon someone that's been convicted of a crime. that ability lies with the board of pardons and parole and while the members are appointed by the governor, they cannot consider a pardon or someone cannot apply for a pardon until after their entire sentence has been served, plus they have to be a law-abiding citizen for an extra five years, so if you have a sentence with a mandatory minimum of five years, that sentence must be completed and then you need to still wait another five years for a total of ten years before that person, that convicted defendant can apply for a pardon. and then obviously it's with up to the discretion of the board members as to whether it be granted so it's a very long process, not one that is automatic and certainly not one that lies in the hand of one person that can be executed quickly. >> just real quick, if former president trump becomes the nominee the trial in georgia can continue, correct? >> that is correct. >> and if he wins the presidency can the trial continue? >> that is correct. i mean, i think we heard from d.a. willis last night, she's looking to have a trial within six months. we'll see if that's practical or available given the number of defendants. obviously the timing is going to be dictated by motions that are going to be filed, by the judge's calendar, how well the judge is able to move the case forward, but it should be able to go forward. >> so i just want to understand georgia law, so even if he's president of the united states, the trial can continue and if he is convicted, can he be punished if he is president of the united states? can he be sent to jail? >> so these are all unprecedented questions. we have never been in this spot before, but i think, again, the d.a.'s focus at this point is to hole people accountable where she has evidence that they have violated the law. and we know that there will be various motions and things to try to challenge the evidence that she has, but we'll have to wait and see what happens in terms of if there is a conviction and the timing of it. >> this feels like a good moment to underscore also how important it was that there were cameras in that courtroom last night and we were able -- the nation was able to watch along as to what happened. that was not the case in any of the federal courtrooms in which donald trump has appeared in recent weeks, so kudos to georgia, let's hope that's an example that others emulate but, gwen, i wanted to ask you more. tell us more about district attorney willis at the center of this for many now in the national audience just sort of getting to know her in recent weeks, certainly saw a no nonsense figure she cut last night. talk to us about what you know of her and her reputation but also how you anticipate she's going to handle which will be the most high-profile case of her or frankly almost any prosecutor's career. >> i've often said that d.a. willis has been called for a time such as this. she has the experience. she has work the directly in that office in the fulton county d.a.'s office for a considerable amount of time and she knows the judges, the judges know her and most importantly she is very familiar with georgia law, georgia rules of evidence and in particular georgia's rico statutes. she is one of a few prosecutors that's been very successful in using the statute to identify enterprises and identifying the types of pattern of racketeering activity that violative of the statute. what we have seen from her and will continue to is a deliberate approach toward what she believes will be justice, holding people accountable that have violated the law and she's going to do it in a way that honors her oath and the trust that's been put in her by the residents of fulton county. so every prosecutor's oath says that we must or they must investigate cases without fear, favor or affection and so she is not going to be fearful of the attacks that have tried to be lobbied against her. she's not going to show favor for a particular party or particular individual. she's not going to show affection for a particular outcome. she's a prosecutor that will take the law and evidence as it's been given to her and she will follow it wherever it leads her. >> miss fleming, there are 19 indicted defendants, and we know that in georgia being convicted of a rico charge carries a minimum five-year sentence. what kind of latitude, now presumably not all of those defendants amount to the same level of severity when it comes to their involvement in the alleged crime, so what kind of latitude would the judge in the case have to distinguish between, you know, the kingpin in this case or somebody who had had a kind of relatively minor role in it? does that come down to the sentencing given that there is this five-year minimum? how does that work? >> so, yes, anybody convicted of rico would have that five-year minimum but additional time can be stacked based on the evidence that the judge had heard at trial in terms of culpability. >> all right. former dekalb county district attorney gwen keyes fleming, thanks for coming on the show and giving us some specifics on how georgia law works. up next, reporting from inside the room where the fulton county district attorney announced the new indictments against donald trump, this is now his fourth, "morning joe" will be right back. back getting screened ♪ ♪ for colon cancer made me queasy. ♪ ♪ but now i've found a way that's right for me. ♪ ♪ feels more easy. ♪ ♪ my doc and i agreed. ♪ ♪ i pick the time. ♪ ♪ today's a good day. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ i did it my way! ♪ let innovation refunds help with your erc tax refund so you can improve your business however you see fit. rosie used part of her refund to build an outdoor patio. clink! dr. marshall used part of his refund to give his practice a facelift. emily used part of her refund to buy... i run a wax museum. let innovation refunds help you get started on your erc tax refund. stop waiting. go to innovationrefunds.com you really got the brows. nice footwork. man, you're lucky, watching live sports never used to be this easy. now you can stream all your games like it's nothing. yes! that's what i'm talking about. 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"the kansas city star" is looking at new reports showing pregnant women in the midwest are dying at high rates. in missouri, between 2017 and 2019, the rate of women who died while pregnant or within one year of pregnancy jumped almost 30%. in kansas, 105 cases of maternal death were reported between 2016 and 2020, with 29 of those cases tied to pregnancy. the study showed that a majority of the deaths were preventable. we will be digging deeper into that story. and finally "the boston globe" reports on the university's revamping their admissions in the wake of the ban on affirmative action. the paper notes harvard university is switching out its essay prompt on applications with a set of five short answer questions that asks students about intellectual experience, extracurricular activities, employment, travel, or family responsibilities. administrators hope this will still allow students to talk about how race has affected their life experiences. and former nfl running back and arkansas football standout michael oher whose life was depicted in "the blind side" claims in a newly filed lawsuit the film was all a lie. nbc news correspondent kaylee hartung has the details. >> never had one before. >> what, a room to yourself? >> a bed. >> reporter: the 2009 film "the blind side" captured hearts on the big screen, telling the story of future nfl star michael oher's adoption by a wealthy memphis family but they claim it was all a lie. the tuy family exploited him for their own benefit and he wants to sever all legal ties. he alleges they falsely misrepresented themselves as the adoptive parents of michael but never legally adopted him. instead, he says, the couple tricked him in 2004, less than three months after he turned 18 into signing a document that made them his conservators, giving them full legal control over any of his contracts. but no familial relationship. it is a lie he says he discovered to his chagrin and embarrassment just six months ago. >> conservatorship is different from adoption. a conservatorship does not create a family relationship. it creates a legal responsibility. >> with that power, the petition alleges, they negotiated the movie deal for "the blind side" in 2006. he says they made millions in royalties while he received no payment whatsoever. they have not responded to comment, but in the book "in a heart beat," they said of the money made from the movie, we divided it five ways. shawn tuy jr. said in an interview the family was not surprised by the lawsuit. >> there were things back in 2021, like, if you guys give me this much, i won't go public with things. >> still ahead, continued coverage of donald trump's fourth indictment. how serious are racketeering charges and how strong is the case against him? our legal experts will break down the 41-count indictment. next on "morning joe." down the 41-count indictment next on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ what do we always say, son? liberty mutual customizes your car insurance... so you only pay for what you need. that's my boy. now you get out there, and you make us proud, huh? ♪ bye, uncle limu. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ rsv is in for a surprise. meet arexvy. 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( ♪♪ ) constant contact. helping the small stand tall. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. and, they felt dramatic and fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq relief. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. well, it's hard to believe. i don't feel any satisfaction. i feel great, you know, just great profound sadness that we have a former president who has been indicted for so many charges that went right to the heart of whether or not our democracy would survive. he set out to defraud the united states of america, and the citizens of our nation. he used tactics of harassment, intimidation. he made threats. he and his allies went after state officials, local officials responsible for conducting elections. the only satisfaction may be that the system is working, that all of the efforts by donald trump, his allies and his enablers to try to silence the truth, to try to undermine democracy have been brought into the light, and justice is being pursued. >> that was former secretary of state hillary clinton on msnbc last night, before the full indictment came out. she was asked about the georgia case and trump's efforts to overturn the election. something she warned years ago that he might try. welcome back to the third hour of "morning joe." it is tuesday, august 15th. catty cat, jonathan lemire still with us. joining the conversation we have the state attorney for palm beach county, florida, dave aaronburg and pulitzer prize winning historian john meacham joins us this morning. let's get straight to donald trump's latest legal case. the former president and 18 others were named in a sweeping 41-count indictment targeting alleged attempts to overturn the state's 2020 election results. here is fulton district attorney fani willis explaining the charges. >> every individual charged in the indictment is charged with one count of violating georgia's racketeer, influenced and corrupt organizations act through participation in a criminal enterprise in fulton county, georgia, and elsewhere to accomplish the illegal goal of allowing donald j. trump to seize the presidential term of office beginning on january 20th, '21. >> the former president and his allies are accused of running a criminal organization that, quote, knowingly and willfully joined a conspiracy to unlawfully change the outcome of the election in favor of trump. district attorney willis said she would give all defendants until august 25th to turn themselves in. and would push to go to trial in six months, within six months. joining us now, "wall street journal" reporter cameron mcmurder, he was in the room as fulton county district attorney fani willis announced the indictment. cameron, this was long awaited. a lot of people said when's georgia going to happen, if it is going to ever happen, but georgia's got time in ways that other jurisdictions do not. >> right. and prosecutor willis has spent a lot of time with a special grand jury she had, so she has lots of evidence she's compiled and as we all saw, it is a very comprehensive, broad conspiracy she sets out that she is going after a whole bunch of people for a whole bunch of things. and she argues forcefully in the indictment that she were acting for one goal and that was to overturn the election in georgia, so that donald trump would be declared the winner when the evidence shows that he did not win. >> yeah. "the wall street journal's" cameron mcmurder, thank you for your insight there. and, joe, to me, this is very different than the last indictment we saw, on similar issues, 18 defendants, 41 charges, 30 unindicted co-conspirators. very different from jack smith's tightly put together indictment. you can see that this is going to take a long time to really get a sense of the, quote, enterprise that fani willis has described with these criminal acts. >> yeah. again, we have said it, a lot of legal experts have said from the very beginning that jack smith's january 6th indictment was tight, was taut, to the point, you could tell it was made for a rocket docket. just the opposite here. this is a massive indictment, sprawling. a lot of co-defendants involved. it is going to take a very long time, you know. i can't imagine this not taking at least a year to two years. but the -- the jeopardy that everyone is in here is great because, again, there is a georgia statute that is lined up fairly square on the activity that took place. also, again, in georgia, as we stated before, governor cannot pardon somebody who is convicted. so if donald trump expects a republican governor to pardon him or if donald trump is elected president of the united states in 2024, there will be no one around to pardon him. so, there is great significance there. john meacham, it's another extraordinary day. somebody facetiously tweeted yesterday or x, i don't know what you call it now, said this is the first time a former president has ever been indicted since last week. they keep coming and americans are, i think, by now, are getting pretty numb to it all. but i'm struck by the republican response which is to defund special prosecutors, you know, try to distract, try to throw in lies, throw in conspiracy theories. but in america, the rule of law still is a rule of law, isn't it? in america, it doesn't matter what politicians say, doesn't matter what podcasters say, what's going to matter is what happens inside the courtroom and inside that jury box. >> exactly. and the test for all of us is are we up to obeying the rule of law, even when it goes away, we may not like. so fundamental question. and i think that arguably this is the most fraught and clear -- nothing particularly unclear about the tes the country is facing right now. a huge chunk of the country, a surprisingly large chunk of the country, surprising to me, will follow the now four times indicted former president to the edge of a cliff and possibly over that cliff. and the question is, do those folks, do enough of those folks believe in the rule of law? do they believe in the evidence of their own eyes? and let's just say of their own ears? because he's on -- he's recorded. i need to find these votes, right? and you have this whole cast of characters who have been indicted now in fulton county, who were attempting and i use this word very, very advisedly, right? i'm not just popping off here. this was a coup d'etat. this was an attempt to seize power that was not legitimately granted by the electoral processes of the constitution of the united states. full stop. that's what it was. and even if -- even if, because of one's partisan feelings you don't want to pursue it, at least move on from that person, from that cast of characters, who attempted to subvert the will of the people. it is a pretty clear question. and i think that to me, one of the things we're going to learn in the next few months is whether the american public in 2023 is up to the task of being a mature democracy. >> yeah. john, georgia is different in so many ways from the other jurisdictions where the indictments came. we talked about no pardons from governors. we also have some extraordinary evidence. mar-a-lago documents also really extraordinary, i think we're going to find. the phone call, the attempts to give the secretary of state to rig the election, but also the transparency and we started to see a little bit of it last night, where you actually had cameras in the courtroom and i know -- i know as an l.a. guy, you know, we all still live in the age of oj when it comes to -- when it comes to cameras in the courtroom, from o.j. to johnny depp and now to donald trump in georgia, there are, when you're seeing things unfold in front of your eyes, there are only so many conspiracy theories that can take deep root among a large segment of the population because they're going to see the trial, they're going to see the jury with their own eyes. >> yeah. i think it is important, joe. my -- i understand all the arguments for keeping cameras out of the court, that prevail at the federal level and i understand all the difficulties. i also understand neal katyal and others, i agree with them about the importance of televising, figuring out some way to televise the january 6th case and the classified documents case, if it is at all possible, but this case is not going to be a difficult thing. this case is going to be televised. and i think it will be good for america to televising all the cases is good for america, it is an exercise in civic education and legal education and to your point, it is maybe the only way for some of the people that john meacham is just referring to, for the people who continue to not just remain loyal to the president, just not willing to vote for the president, but who believe in all of his lies, in all of his conspiracy theories, in all of his victimology that they will be forced to watch this and they will not be able to say that it is like the equivalent of the moon landing was staged on a -- was put on in a movie studio in a sound stage somewhere, which was fake, which is what they will say, many of them, millions of them, about the other cases. this will be live on camera, and it will be very difficult to make the argument. i'm sure a few will still try, but very important in this case and will be quite a powerful thing to behold. >> so, for so many reasons, david aaronburg, this case in georgia is different as we have been discussing. it is not one that donald trump can try to make go away on his own if he were to be elected again by a self-pardon, were that to be constitutional, or just simply making his department of justice end the investigation. this one is happening on the state level. and, of course, it is happening against the backdrop of a presidential election. certainly to joe's point earlier, democrats tell me that they think georgia arrived as a swing state ahead of schedule and that the republicans were to nominate someone other than donald trump, president biden might have a hard time winning it. if trump is on the ballot, he's got a shot. so let's talk about the timing of this case. georgia voters, are they going to be watching this, saturating their airwaves, while this campaign is ongoing next year? we know the d.a. says, hey, i want to get going in six months, does that seem realistic to you, considering just how big and sprawling this case is? >> jonathan, it does not. i have great respect for fani willis and what she did up there in georgia. this is a tour de force. jack smith's indictment was built for speed. fani willis' was far different. his was a tactical strike on maga. hers is carpet bombing them into smithereens, it is shock and awe, 161 overt acts and there are benefits to this ambitious approach, the first time the leaders will be accountable, including the lawyers who cloaked it with this false sense of legal legitimacy. the downside is, there is no way you're going to try all 19 of the defendants at the same time. i know what my counterpart says she wants to do, i think she thinks that several defendants will flip ahead of time. and first one who gets into her office, hat in hand, will get the best deal. but these ricoh trials can take months. the trial with school teachers over testing scandal, that took eight months. and so i don't think this trial is going to happen before the election. but as you guys said, she has the benefit of time because the department of justice will not be able to end her investigation and no one is going to be able to pardon donald trump out of it. >> i katty kay, talk about the fire hose effect. this is a massive document and the all the different players involved, the co-defendants and the unindicted co-conspirators, there is so much opportunity for more information on potential crimes committed by former president donald trump and his co-defendants. i mean, it's staggering. it is hard to read it. and i think what's really interesting is that she weaves trump's words and speeches and acts that he committed publicly to sort of -- it helps even a layman reading it understand oh, my gosh, what has been going on here, and the constant brow beating of vice president pence to try and get the vice president to change the process of certifying the election. what stands out to you in this indictment and what questions do you have? >> i think it is that personalizing of the law that bringing up the vice president mike pence's -- he was brow beaten. also putting the people who really suffered at the center of this indictment, ruby freeman, her daughter, humanizing that element of this. this had real impact on real people. there are ripple effects of people who were affected by this conspiracy in real time and in ways that, you know, damaged their health and their well-being. you look at bringing in brad raffensperger and his family and his daughter-in-law who was a widow who was harassed and her house was broken into. while you got a complicated legal document here, you got the very real personal impact that it had on people and the ripple effects of that. and then the fact it is hard to find poll workers in a state like georgia. i've been to georgia, i've spoken to poll workers down there, they're down on their numbers because of what happened after the 2020 election and all of that weaves into the the back ground of this, let alone the reputation of the department of justice more broadly. cameron, let me bring you back on. we were talking about how this was going to play out. as this plays out and it is a long complicated trial, as it plays out in georgia, how much do you think people will be watching it and how much does the awareness of the impact of these alleged crimes and that it had on people in georgia, on poll workers, on people like ruby and shai and the raffensperger family, how much does that play out in public opinion as this -- to the extent that there is a court of public opinion as well as the legal court, how much does that play out, do you think in that state in particular? >> that's an excellent, excellent question. everyone in georgia has a very strong opinion about this already. and they're fiercely arguing it. i was out last week talking to people and, of course, if you are pro trump, you think this indictment is politically motivated and has no merit. if -- but a lot of other people who voted against donald trump really don't like him and were gleeful this was about to finally happen. this state, it was 12,000 votes out of 5 million cast in 2020. that was the difference. and donald trump tried to erase that difference. but the difference held after multiple audits and recounts. but that's how narrow it is here. so i don't know how this is going to play. everyone is wondering, i can tell you everyone i spoke to, all sides of the political spectrum, is exhausted by all of this in georgia. we had this -- we basically never stopped having the 2020 election here. and so how people are going to vote is uncertain. the republican party is shattered at this point between kemp and other -- and the pro trump faction and how that's going to play out is anybody's guess. >> and, joe, i mean, thank you, cameron, she indicted 19 people. a lot of them obviously in trump's orbit, people he kept close, similar to the documents case, where you have these folks who worked directly with trump now also indicted. 19 people, including mark meadows. you've known mark meadows for years. we know a lot of these people. it is incredible the lengths to which their fealty to trump, it appears to be endless. >> i've known most of these -- i've known most of these people for years. you and i have known donald trump for 25 years, 20 years, whatever, since he was working at nbc on "the apprentice." i've known mark meadows, spent a good bit of time with him, talking to him, counseling him about the freedom caucus, saying, man, make it -- don't make it about donald trump or conspiracy theories, make it about small government, make it about responsible government, make it about, you know, having the local government do what they -- all these -- all these -- i'm sorry, these issues, like, things that involve issues. and same with rudy giuliani, you know. we had rudy giuliani on the show before trump really was rising. he was doing his -- he was doing a hit for us, donald trump was running, giuliani had yet to go full trump, and off the set, giuliani said he's all or nothing guy. i go into the room and i make deals with people and everybody's happy if everybody wins. donald trump's the only person i've ever been into a room with where he's very upset if anybody else wins other than him. it is all or nothing. and giuliani did not mean that as a compliment. but yet here we are, john meacham, all these people who i'll say we've known, i've known a lot of these people who claim to be small government conservatives, champions of the constitution, champions of the law, claimed all of these things and now they have scattered in the wind. but let's dig a little deeper, john. because it is not just the trumpers. it is not just people who sucked up to donald trump for fame or money or power. what's been more disturbing to me since the last indictment has been the mainstream republicans. sort of "the wall street journal" editorial page republicans as well as "the wall street journal" editorial page itself since the january 6th indictments. it seems that so many of these establishment republicans who are anti-trump republicans are now deciding that they want to be anti, anti-trump republicans. they want to strike out against the people who are trying to bring donald trump to justice, which they will tell you, they know he should be brought to justice. and yet i don't know, maybe you can explain it to me, because i don't understand, but this -- this tribalism, okay, yeah, maybe he's an autocrat and maybe i've said he wants to destroy american democracy, and maybe i said that he's a wanna-be fascist and maybe i've said that the very constitution hangs in the balance and what he did on january 6th, so most unforgivable political sin of any -- maybe i've said all of that, but oh, my god, jack smith's indictment, merrick garland is a monster, we really should be afraid of, i'm sorry, i wish there were -- it was a better word to use. but it is -- and i'm not really sure how we move forward if that's what establishment republicans who had been anti-trump, if that's now their new pose because they're getting pangs of tribalism. >> that's the entire question, right there. i call them peter malar best republicans. these are the folks who, as you just said, they want to move on from trump, they tell themselves they were great policies, and they sort of get it, but they can't -- there is something about the partisan brain, the partisan appetites anyway, that won't let them see that in a binary system, it may just be that the only way to keep moving forward with this experiment and trying to create a more perfect union is to vote for the democrats. and i say that not as a reflexive partisan. right? and so i just think, you put your finger on it, right? i talk about are we up to this as a democracy, i don't really mean the 30%, the 34% who approved of joe mccarthy even after joe mccarthy had been censured, i think there is a delta in this of about 14 or 15%. right? 34% of the country didn't get to do anything. it is the fact that trump keeps getting 48, 49%. and that number, that gap are the folks you're talking about. i spoke to someone whose name we would all know, i'll protect, it was a private conversation, not long after january 6th. and i said, somewhat casually, which i shouldn't have been casual about it, i said, you know, when they start trying to sack your capital, things tend not to go well. right? and this person, again, who would be known to everybody, said, well, if that was trying to sack the capital, they weren't very good at it, so i think you're overreacting. really? you think the capitol police, families who mourn the loss of those officers think that? you know, really? is that -- is that the -- is that the line you're going to draw? i was being overly clever, this person was being, you know, contrarian, but that, to me that's the word. why do we have to be contrarian to a fault? why is it that the editorial page you're talking about, a lot of the folks that we know and like, who are on the other side of this particular question, why do they have to take the opposite side simply because that's what their reflexive instincts tell them? is it the point of the country -- is it the entire point of the united states that we're able to think beyond our appetites? and our partisan dispositions? and if we don't do that, we aren't going to make it. and i don't mean to be alarmist at all. i've been accused by a lot of folks of being too much like mr. rogers, you know, we're all going to -- it is all going to work out. i tend to think it will. but it only will if the kind of people you're talking about, the republicans that we know and that we personally like, but is becoming ever harder that anything resembling a political conversation with them if those people don't put the constitution first, then we may not make it. and i'm delighted to say, mike pence probably saved the republic. but i don't want to always have to count on one person to do it. >> with an assist from dan quayle. so, this is the great irony, john. a lot of these people that john meacham and i are talking about whose names we can't say but who everybody knows who they are, it is -- you know, it is pretty simple to -- a lot of these people, i guess i could say some of their names, i just don't want to waste my time -- >> oh, come on, joe. go ahead. go ahead. >> a lot of these -- well, the former governor of new hampshire, sununu, screaming at me one day for having donald trump on television, and screaming at me the next day for being insufficiently loyal to donald trump. there's one name. i can name a thousand of them. but just so people that are watching here that are conservatives like me don't think, oh, joe's become a marxist, here's what's so amazing about that delta. that delta is occupied by the same people who said i was too conservative on balancing the budget. i was too conservative on immigration. i was too conservative on trade. i was too conservative. you fill in the blanks, thomas, ginni thomas thought i was a troublemaker when i worked for dick armey. newt gingrich said ways too conservative, look it up, to ever get elected in 1994. he and other people in this delta were the people who called us the jihadists for insisting that we fight harder to balance the budget. am i boring you, john? >> no i'm making notes of things i would like to reply too. >> continue. continue taking your notes. we understand how this must be for me that the same people who kicked the hell out of me when i was in congress for being too conservative are now the ones who are upset because people aren't blindly lining up behind donald trump. and i guess the point is that -- that delta is occupied by party hacks. it is not occupied by conservatives. it is not occupied by small government republicans. it is not occupied by people who believe like we believed when we came in and balanced the budget four years in a row for the first time in a century, it is occupied by the party hacks who attacked us constantly for trying to push legislation, even more conservative than theirs. how fascinating that now they're defenders of conservatism and the great republic because they're defending a guy who wants to be an autocrat. it is all -- as send in the clowns would say, as judy collins would sing, isn't it rich? isn't it rich? >> yeah. all right. so, first of all, the first pass, the delta might seem as though it is occupied just by people who don't like you. that's one possibility. >> no. party hacks. you know, you know what they would like me, they would like me if i had been a party hack, if they could come to me during the whip votes and say, joe, vote for this and i go i'm going to vote for what i believe in. i'm sorry, go ahead. >> i merely wanted to entertain that possibility for a moment and move on to the next point, i never found myself in agreement with ginni thomas before about anything, but she considers you a troublemaker, seems like on one moment she had a little insight into your character. but i would say the more important thing about your delta, joe, is that it is occupied not just by party hacks. it is occupied by a collection of people who make up the core of the republican party's elected political class, let's call it that. and what they have shown over the last, you know, seven years, is that they are either sort of -- power matter more than anything. this whole thing about conservative, policy, all of that stuff doesn't matter, they just care about power. donald trump had it, they're willing to do anything to be close to it, to keep it, to be parasites on it, all of that. or they are -- they're not whores to power, these are not mutually exclusive categories, and the fearful. the kind of pathetically fearful who look at the republican base and see their loyalty to donald trump and say, i'm afraid of my own shadow, i'm afraid of the base, i'm afraid if i take trump on in the cause of principle that i'll be eaten alive by the base of the republican party, i will lose my job, i'll face the worst possible thing i could imagine and have to go earn a living in the private sector. >> can i add one more? they're grifters too. a lot of these people, it is all about how much money can they raise, how many hits can they get? if newt gingrich says something outrageous like let's defund jack smith and go to newt dot whatever and give me money. there is so much grifting going on. the jim and tammy faye bakker of the republican party. >> the pathetically fearful and it all adds up to what you used to fight me about, not that long ago, joe, i'm afraid your party has become morally bankrupt and you would say, no, it was the party, it will find its way back and i feel like where we are is that much of the republican party has demonstrated, again, the political class of it, the base of it, has a different set of problems, but the political class of it has shown itself to be all the things that you have been saying that john meacham is pointing to, it is a giant test for the country and what used to be the republican party. i don't know what that is anymore. it is the collection that we just talked about, and it is staggering that a party that we all considered problematic in some respects but thought of as a serious political party less than a decade ago is what it is now, which is, you know, a whore house. >> and one example of republicans to grade themselves by blindly following donald trump, let's remember, rudydo giuliani was a attorney in new york city. now he's a defendant on ricoh charges because he followed donald trump. dave aaronburg, the indictment out of georgia has a dozen references to donald trump's tweets. we know, of course, he is still getting in trouble with his social media posts, protective order out of federal court. so two-parter for you. do you think, a, we could see a similar protective order out of georgia? he's been on the assault on truth social against fani willis and the rest. and do you think at this point because of these posts do you think that there is a chance where he could suffer some real consequences for them, either in the state or federal level? >> i think he already did, jonathan. i think the reason why you saw an expedited indictment last night, we expected it to happen today, was because of donald trump's social media messages attacking the former lieutenant governor of georgia. so, that worked against him. and, yeah, protective order i think is imminent because that's common in these kind of cases. i'm waiting to see if there is going to be a partial gag order because donald trump can't comply with one and he if he gets ordered to stay silent, he'll violate that and that may be the quickest way he ends up in an orange jumpsuit. >> thank you, all, very much for being on this morning. what a day. still ahead on "morning joe," as joe just mentioned, former house speaker newt gingrich calls on republicans to cut off the funding for special counsel jack smith's office. we'll show you those new remarks. plus, much more in depth legal analysis in the wake of donald trump's fourth indictment. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back. alk. ♪ they're why we walk. ♪ we walk in the alzheimer's association walk to end alzhiemer's because we're getting closer to beating this disease. join us. stop right there! this week, get the denny's super slam starting at $7.99. hungry for all your breakfast favorites? when you want america's biggest breakfast starting at $7.99... at denny's, it's diner time. now open really late. he snores like an angry rhino. you've never heard an angry rhino. it's diner time. baby i hear one every night... every night. okay. i'll work on that. save 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus, free home delivery when you add a base. shop now only at sleep number. ♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. every business t that's why comcast business de is launching theal. mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. comcast business, powering possibilities. in an appearance on fox news last night, former republican speaker newt gingrich criticized the grand juries involved in donald trump's indictments. and encouraged gop lawmakers in the house to go after the funding for special counsel jack smith's office. >> if you're in a jury pool, which was 19-1 for biden over trump, that is not a fair jury. that's not an honest jury. that's a jury of your peers. that is a rigged game by a really bad person. i really believe that the republicans in the house should cut off jack smith's money. i think that his last day on the payroll should be september 30th. they should do whatever it takes to close down this entire anticonstitutional ruthless breaking of the law. >> so, joyce, on page 20, willis really maps out how this criminal enterprise worked and it goes through it very methodically and chronologically, on the fourth day of november, trump does a speech declare, victory. then rudy giuliani does this telephone call and leaves an 83-second voice mail message for unindicted co-conspirator two, making statements concerning fraud. act three, he has his press conference with the other attorneys. i don't know if that was in the back alley or not. and then act four, again, more very specific details on how they were pushing this lie, the big lie. and then act five, donald trump and mark meadows met with the majority leader of the michigan senate and the michigan speaker of the house and other michigan legislators in the oval office, the meeting was an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy. and mark meadows trying to get a meeting and sent text messages to different people to try and get potus to, quote, chat with them. another act in furtherance of the conspiracy. and it goes on and on and on and it gets worse and worse. it is kind of hard to hear people like newt gingrich and ted cruz trying to fight this when you're looking at an indictment that lays out crimes and whether it is hunter biden or former president donald trump, it is kind of important to let the law play out and see what happens here. we're looking at 100 pages of a complete assault on our democracy. >> this case will be decided by a jury in a courtroom that will hear the evidence and be instructed on the law. that's where the decision will be made. not on fox news, not any place else. and it is increasingly clear that donald trump's perfect phone call wasn't. and as a result of that phone call, georgia prosecutors did what prosecutors and investigators do, they looked into whether or not a crime had been committed and instead of finding something specific that was limited to that one phone call, they found this ongoing pattern of conduct reaching across the country, and what it comes down to, when you read this indictment carefully, which honestly none of us have done yet, we have been through it, but as you begin to look at the allegations, it becomes very clear that donald trump used fake claims of fraud to try to perpetrate election fraud on the country. that's the heart of the charges here. some day one hopes that people in the republican party will take a deep breath and the fever dream will break and they'll begin to see this for what this is. because the continuing to defend this conduct, it is past the point where it is consciousable. fani willis was clear last night, she said the statements in the indictment are just allegations. he remains cloaked in a presumption of innocence as do his co-defendants. that's true in the court of law sense. in the political arena, we're now well past the point where anyone can maintain this conduct was democratic, was fair, was legitimate. that's just no longer the case based on what we know. >> coming up, we'll hear from a georgia state senator who testified in front of the fulton county grand jury last year and faced online attacks for questioning donald trump's claims of election fraud in her state. "morning joe" is coming right back. r state. 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>> a lot of them were racist. a lot of were just hateful. >> that was ruby freeman testifying before the house january 6th committee last year, along with her daughter, shaye moss. they testified they lost all sense of safety after former president trump, rudy giuliani and others falsely accused them of tampering with votes. freeman became the subject of pro trump conspiracy theories after the 2020 election and some of the charges in the latest indictment of donald trump relate to freeman, both freeman and her daughter were officially cleared of any wrongdoing. joining us now is democratic state senator elena parent of georgia. she testified before the fulton county grand jury in june of last year. and, thank you for coming on this morning. you talk about -- >> thank you for having me. >> -- doing your job and dealing with these lies and it was like a bomb got dropped on your life. can you talk about that and the sort of stress that you were put under? >> well, yes. thank you for having me. good morning. i did not have it as bad as ruby freeman or shaye moss and my heart goes out to them. i obviously had put myself in the public eye a bit by running for office and being a state senator here in georgia. but by showing up that day at the georgia capitol when i was surprised, i had no forewarning that rudy giuliani and jenna ellis and the rest of the crew were going to be showing up at this state senate subcommittee hearing that i was a member of, when i pushed back on the lies that -- the myths they were bringing before us that hearing, instantaneously i too became a target online and i say a bomb got dropped on my life because our family ended up having to have some police protection for the next, you know, month or so. >> so, gene, you can take the next question. but when you look at what has happened to some of these people's lives and also many are mentioned here, many republicans as well as democrats, and just innocent citizens who held the line in the process, and then if you read in the indictment of the chairwoman of the republican party, ronna mcdaniel, is mentioned because trump and john eastman reached out to her and they wanted her to figure out a way to get certain individuals to cast electoral votes for donald trump, even though he lost. and she continues. i mean, how does she continue lost. how does she continue to protect -- when you're seeing and hearing, just like these other people, that this doesn't feel right. let's not even say this feels like a crime. maybe you can't identify that conversation yourself as a crime. i'm not sure how, ronna. but at the same time you know something is wrong. you see with your eyes what he's doing and you get calls like that and you can't stand up. >> exactly. what strikes me about this indictment is, you know, you see the two levels of this. you see in washington and elsewhere in the country people like ronna mcdaniel and others, republican senators, republican members of the house are buying in to this big election lie for political reasons. it's all political. and they're making these grand sweeping statements that are lies. but here you see the effect on people, you see what it did to people. you see individuals who were involved and what it looked like on the ground. my question for the senator is that because this is so focused and so granular, how do you think this will be received in georgia, really across political lines? i mean, obviously the state is polarized like the american electorate is polarized, and there are people for whom donald trump can never do any wrong. but what do you think the impact will be broadly as the dust settles here? >> thank you for the question. i think you in your question hit on part of the answer, which is that our state and our country do remain completely polarized, and we just have a split in what information people have. it wouldn't have been so many decades ago that any indictment would have been viewed as disqualifying not just by elected officials but also by the voters, by the people. we've devolved into this media ecosystem especially on the right where there's no sense of shared reality, which is a huge problem facing our country as we try to solve problems. i do think the swing voters in the suburbs and the exurbs here in atlanta for whom this will be meaningful. they did live through it. they understand this was a conspiracy to try to disenfranchise millions of georgia voters by someone who swore to uphold, protect and defend the constitution. but for many others, nothing will shake them out of their belief that donald trump simply did no wrong, that the election actually was fraudulent or stolen and that this is some sort of political witch hunt. coming up, another live report from fulton county, georgia, on the heels of last night's new indictment. we'll be joined by a reporter who was in the room when district attorney fani willis announced the new charges. 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(psst psst) flonase. all good. . coming up, inside senate minority leader mitch mcconnell's attempt to thwart donald trump. one of our next guests says the gop leader is confronting trumpism by trying to keep his party away from are isolationism. from are isolationism new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. ♪♪ cloudy day in l.a. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. on the east coast. katty kay, jonathan lemire and john heilemann are back with us. we start with the fourth indictment of former president trump, this time in georgia, over alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election in that state. among the 19 charged alongside the former president, his personal attorney rudy giuliani, his former chief of staff mark meadows. nbc news correspondent blaine alexander has details. >> reporter: the former president of the united states is charged with being part of a criminal enterprise. >> the indictment brings felony charges against donald john trump. >> reporter: fani willis announced she is charging 19 people with trying to overturn the 2020 presidential election in georgia, an effort she says was led by mr. trump. the former president is facing 13 felony counts, including multiple conspiracy charges. >> the defendants engaged in a criminal racketeering enterprise. >> reporter: willis has charged all of the defendants with violating georgia's rico act, a statute first used to prosecute organized crime. it includes a fake electors scheme, breach of voting machines, and the phone call from trump to brad raffensperger. >> i just want to find, uh, 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. because we won the state. >> reporter: this is the fourth indictment mr. trump is facing, but the case could play out very differently. georgia law will likely allow the trial to be televised, and authorities have said there could be a mug shot of the former president. because these are state charges, the former president, if convicted, could not pardon himself, even if he won reelection in 2024, because that power only extends to federal crimes. this morning, mr. trump's legal team is slamming the indictment, writing in part, this one-sided grand jury presentation relies on witnesses who harbor their own personal and political interests. but the grand jury reached its conclusion after hearing testimony from multiple republican witnesses, including supporters of former president trump like senator lindsey graham. another witness, former georgia lieutenant governor geoff duncan speaking out at the courthouse after his testimony. >> my hope is that america beliefs us and republicans believe us that this election was fair and legal. >> blaine alexander with that report. tamar hallowman is outside the courthouse. the legal team is expected to use a little-known federal statute to move his case out of fulton county. is that possible? >> yes, it is. a little used federal statute that allows current or former federal officials if they're indicted for crimes that allegedly occurred while they were in office to move proceedings out of state into federal court if they can argue that the behavior at issue occurred while they were performing their duties in federal office. we're expecting that within days, potentially weeks the president's legal team will try and do that. >> what's the sequencing of this? do you have any sense of how the georgia case is going to play out in comparison with the january 6th case? we know there hasn't been communication or at least fani willis has said there hasn't been communication between her and jack smith, but what is your understanding of the sequence of this? >> that's one of the biggest questions we're hoping will be answered in the coming days and weeks. at a preference around midnight last night, fulton county d.a. fani willis said she would like the trial to get under way within six months, but it's up to the judge. there are so many cases on the former president's plate, cases in new york, in miami, in d.c., civil cases. of course, there's also the political calendar. scheduling could very much be a challenge moving forward. >> a few moments ago donald trump posted on truth social that he's going to be having a news conference next week monday in bedminster, new jersey, to talk about all of this. isn't he, when he does so, running the risk of running afoul of these protective orders? talk to us about how that could really complicate his matters of legal defense there in fulton county. >> absolutely. that protective order was issued in the january 6th case, but there's so many parallels between what's going on in washington with that justice department case and what we expect will happen here in fulton county. we know authorities are paying very close attention to what jack smith and his team are doing and what the judge overseeing the case there is doing. >> thank you very much for your insight this morning and your reporting. the indictment in georgia charges trump with 13 felony counts. they are violation of the georgia racketeer influence and corrupt organizations act or rico, three counts of solisation of violation of oath by a public officer, two counts of conspiracy to commit false statements and writing, two counts of conspiracy to commit forge ree in the first degree, two counts of false statements and writings, conspiracy to commit impersonating a public officer, conspiracy to commit filing false documents and filing false documents. let's bring in former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade and msnbc justice and legal affairs analyst anthony coley. he was at the department of justice under attorney general merrick garland. thank you both for being with us. barbara, i want to get your first thoughts on the indictment and also what makes georgia different. it feels like fani willis has time to really bear out this case and go through every detail, unlike the other indictments. >> yes. i think that she is in it for the long haul. using this rico statute is not one for a quick trial or quick disposition, 19 defendants. it is a massive case. she details as overt acts all of these pieces of evidence. my guess is many of these same pieces of evidence will be used in the federal trial as well. she has experience using rico. she's used it 11 times since taking office. she understands the value of it. you can bring together all of these different aspects of a scheme in one place so a jury can understand the full scope of it. you'll note that she talks about conduct in coffee county and conduct in other states to allow the jury to understand that this attack was not isolated in georgia but was intended to throw the entire election by including all of these other states. so this case may not go to trial in the next six months as she hopes, but eventually it's going to go. as we just heard, there's no pardon available from a president for conviction in the state of georgia. >> anthony, let me ask you about merrick garland. you obviously know him. you know the doj. you also know about communications coming from the doj. you're the perfect person to ask this question. does merrick garland need to come out, hold a press conference at some point and explain all the things that are going on? of course, we say here all the time that donald trump's cases are donald trump's, and hunter biden's cases are hunter biden's. but right now there is a lot of questions swirling around the hunter biden case, the "washington post" yesterday suggested in an editorial that things weren't the way they should be. you've got the special counsel here, you've got donald trump with now four indictments, two of them federal indictments. wouldn't it be a good idea for merrick garland to come out and explain, for instance, why the january 6th trial is moving forward in an expeditious manner, what exactly happened to hunter biden, sort through it all and explain why he's not running a political department? >> that's exactly right. the attorney general and i have had this conversation multiple times. i think his view is that it is best to speak through our court filings. now, having said that, there is obvious utility in talking to the american people about the process that you are running within the justice department to make sure that you're following the facts and the law and that partisan politics are not a part of decision making here. he absolutely should speak publicly more to the extent that he can about ongoing criminal investigations. i don't suspect that he will. i will say this, joe, i spent two years there. i know for a fact and you mention the hunter biden situation here. what's important for your viewers to know is that the u.s. attorney in this case, david weiss, has been treated like a special counsel for this entire time, quite honestly. the attorney general has deferred to his decisionmaking in this case. but to your point, the attorney general himself can and should speak to that process more than he has previously. >> i think it's fair to say that because of the nature of these charges, we're not as concerned as i'm kind of fixated on in the other cases, particularly the two washington-based cases and the florida-based case, on can we get these things done before the election or can donald trump push them off? there's reasons to not be as worried about that here. what do you think the timeline is for this? i heard joe earlier in the show say given the scale of these indictments, that you're going to be looking at years potentially, that this is not a thing you can get done quickly. she said last night, this idea that she would try 19 defendants together all in one process. that struck me as a little fanciful and a number of our legal analysts said so last night. what's your sense of the mechanics of how long it's going to take, how it's going to unfold in terms of what we can expect to see when this thing finally gets inside a courtroom? >> in a perfect world, i think fani willis would get her wish. that is, many, many of these defendants would plead guilty, maybe even flip and cooperate and you would be down to a small number of defendants, maybe a core group of five or six. in a perfect world, maybe you could go to trial in six months. you exchange discovery, have some routine motions and the case goes to trial. but this is anything but routine. when you have 19 defendants, all of them have the ability to have issues, to file motions. each one has to be responded to and heard by the judge. they will invariably have attorney problems. someone will have a lawyer and decide they have some sort of conflict of interest with their lawyer and want to fire their lawyer and start over. someone will get sick. there are all kinds of things that can delay this. rico cases that i've handled before have taken years, not months, to complete all defendants through trial. but fani willis can prioritize and put donald trump in the first trial group so he's in the first batch of five and then maybe some of the other people can be tried down the road. i'd be very surprised if this could be tried before the november 2024 election. >> obviously we just have been documenting here just how sprawling this case is going to be. there's a sense that the january 6th election interference case being tried federally is designed to go much quicker. my question for you, if you could drop on your experience at doj, what level of coordination might there be in terms of some of the scheduling? this is a defendant, donald trump, who's facing four criminal matters, a number of other civil ones. his calendar is going to get pretty full, pretty fast. he's also running for president. walk us through how this is all going to be worked out. >> federal prosecutors can and should and judges can and should talk amongst themselves about the calendar here. the other important thing i want to go back to what joe asked me earlier, the other thing the justice department can and should do when these federal cases get under way in 2024 is petition the judicial conference of the united states to allow cameras in federal courtrooms. for your viewers who may want know, the judicial conference is the federal policymaking body which determines whether or not video and live recordings can and should be allowed. i suspect my former colleagues at the justice department will not agree with that type of step. they are institutionalists in the kindest, best sense of the word. but there is so much misinformation coming from donald trump and his allies right now. the absolute best thing they can do to ensure the facts remain front and center in this investigation is to petition the judicial conference to allow video in these federal courtrooms. jonathan, you know, when you talk about the calendar and 2024, that's the best thing that the public needs to see as they prepare to cast their votes for the next president. >> it's interesting. you just wonder what kind of constraints could get put on the former president as this proceeds, a fourth indictment, as he's already been known to attack this d.a. and others involved. i don't know how long that can go on. gary abernathy a contributing columnist for the "washington post" has a new piece entitled, on "on trump no one is changing their minds, so what do we do now"? he writes, four years of trump's surliness convinced americans to send him packing. following 2022 midterm results, trump appeared vulnerable within his own ranks. but prosecutors could leave well enough alone. when state and federal indictments came rolling in, wavering republicans had cause to recircle the wagons. the latest poll finds trump holding a virtually insurmountable primary lead. he says while he believes voters should not award trump the presidency again, he worries about the nonstop national turmoil surrounding these legal proceedings. see, joe, i mean, i'd love to hear your take, but i don't think that's the doj or fani willis or jack smith's fault. i mean, it's just like donald trump wanting to move his trials to west virginia or wherever else. he committed the crimes potentially. the law is looking into potential crimes committed by this former president. they got to do what they got to do. >> and the venues where the alleged crimes took place, where the sexual assault and, as the judge said, the rape took place in the e. jean carroll case in manhattan, so you wouldn't try that in west virginia. in d.c., where january 6th happened, where all of his activities happened, the venue is d.c. all of the actors in d.c., not west virginia or oklahoma or, i don't know, montana. you go to mar-a-lago. it happened at mar-a-lago, all the documents, all lying, all the alleged attempts to destroy the security cameras, all of the phone calls, all of the conniving, it happened there. there are a couple of instances that happened in bedminster, where donald trump actually revealed, according to tapes, seems like he revealed top secret plans to invade iran. i'm quite surprised that we haven't had a new jersey filing yet. and then in georgia, this happened in georgia. it's important for us to explain right here that there is a balance. two things can be true at the same time. i have said on this show for some time, knowing that donald trump was going to run again in 2024 if he lost in 2020 so he could make this argument that he was running for office and these were politicized. understanding all of that, i had said several years ago that perhaps the worst of all the terrible legacies that donald trump has left on the political system would be a former president of the united states being indicted. but that has to be balanced against perhaps even the more grievous legal sin of telling americans one man is above the law. so it's a terrible choice. two things can be true at one time. there are three indictments in overwhelmingly democratic areas. there are two brought by elected prosecutors in overwhelmingly democratic areas. there are two brought by a justice department run by the biden administration, who is running against donald trump. donald trump set it up that way. and the trials are moving at a much faster pace to get done, at least the january 6th case to move expeditiously before the election. go ahead. >> well, i was going to say, you know, if you read them -- and i say this especially to trump apologists -- if you read these indictments, you've seen a lot of these acts in here and many you read and you've heard him say anti-democratic things. you've heard him say lies about winning the election. you've read these tweets, okay? and then there's more acts in here and more corroborating information about what he did to try and steal the election. so you don't even in your mind have a question, have your mind open to a possibility that this man might have committed a crime? you really don't after reading this and recognizing everything that you see in it? it just doesn't make any sense. >> right. so finishing my thought and those are great points, mika. i said all of those things and they rest right here and they are disturbing. jack goldsmith is right, they are disturbing. on the other hand, donald trump did not commit his alleged crimes in west virginia. he did not commit them in oklahoma. he did not commit them in areas where there's an overwhelming number of republicans living, because let's face it donald trump is a lifelong democrat who only became a republican when it became convenient to him when he thought that he could win. so he's lived in areas like manhattan. he's very comfortable with the very democrats who he contributed to. he gave money to chuck schumer. in 2014 even he gave money to kamala harris. he gave money to democrats his entire life. so for republicans to now say, oh, it's so unfair that these cases are being brought in democratic areas, part of it is those are areas donald trump chose to live his adult life. john heilemann, on one hand, we have the disturbing fact patterns jack goldsmith brought up in the "new york times." on the other hand, we have the even more disturbing reality that if you don't bring these charges against donald trump, then you are saying we as a country don't believe in the idea that no man is above the law. they're two terrible, terrible choices. at the end of the day, i think he has to be charged. but i go back to what i've been saying for two years. this may be donald trump's most damaging legacy to the american political and legal system. >> this is something we have talked about since we started looking down the barrel at the possibility of criminal charges against the former president. it is unquestionably the case that there will be blow back from this. this will increase the criminalization of politics. this will increase the weaponization of politics. there's no doubt about the partisanship that we see in our country, that republicans will use this as a pretext for trying to do the same thing to a democratic president, whether joe biden or a future democratic president. they will regard it as tit for tat. that is a horrible, horrible outcome for the country. and so the precedent of being able to criminalize the president's behavior is terrible. but it is also the case that not doing it sets another precedent. neither one of these options is a precedent-free option. if we do not prosecute the president for having violated the law, as he quite clearly did in the classified documents case, which i think is the most open and shut of the cases, the prima fascie case. you can be a lawless president and do the things donald trump did in office and you can get away scot-free. you can do those things with impunity. that is not an america that i want to live in in the future. i will face the criminalization of politics and the weaponization of politics. sadly, that's preferable to a president that makes room for lawlessness from the oval office. >> let's be clear. you are faced with that reality because of donald trump and donald trump alone. i wanted to give barbara mcquade the final word here on that issue. obviously there are going to be great political scars and great legal scars. they're horrifying to me, as somebody who loves america. i'm a romantic about our system. i believe we are moving towards a more perfect union. but it is horrifying to me that people are going to look back on this moment and go, oh, he was indicted in the most liberal areas in the united states by people who hated him and indicted by the person who was running against him for president. there will be scar tissue there, there just will be. again, that's balanced against where he committed the crimes and the fact that we don't believe that anybody is above the law. but still, talk about your concerns, the long-term impact on this country. >> well, no doubt there will be the repercussions and blow back you just discussed. but prosecutors have two guiding principles. that piece of it has to be off the table. prosecutors also have to think about what will advance a substantial federal interest. is it in the best interest of the country to charge this case or is it not in the best interest? to me, it comes down to deterrence and accountability. if you leave these cases uncharged, what happens down the road? i think we are still paying the price for the pardon of richard nixon. by kicking that case down the road, we are now having that moment of accountability. unless we hold donald trump accountable, i can only imagine how worse it will become several decades from now. >> former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade and msnbc legal affairs analyst anthony coley. thank you very much for being on this morning. coming up on "morning joe," more potential trouble for the us banking industry amid a new warning about the risk of sweeping credit downgrades for dozens of american banks. we'll speak with andrew ross sorkin about that. plus an update on the hollywood work stoppage. we'll be right back. stoppage. we'll be right back. permission to dig in? granted. breyers carbsmart is so rich, so creamy, it tastes totally off-limits. but with only 4 grams of net carbs in every delicious serving, you've got the green light. better starts with breyers. i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, you've got the green light. i'm feeling this moment. along with clearer skin skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement-and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today. learn how abbvie could help you save. 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(vo) request a cash offer at opendoor dot com. . 32 past the hour. an analyst for fitch is warning that the firm could be forced to downgrade dozens of us banks, including jp morgan chase. the agency last cut its assessment of the banking industry's health in june, but that move did not trigger downgrades on banks. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. andrew, what's happening? >> well, what's happening is fitch, which has been much more aggressive. we talked about fitch downgraded the united states in terms of our own bonds and the like. they're now effectively warning that they could -- i should say they have not done this yet, but they could downgrade the big banks. there was a bit of a warning that came in june. most people didn't really notice it. i think this was sort of an effort by fitch to almost i don't want to say socialize the idea but get ahead of it and get the market to start thinking there's a potential that they may do this, in part because they were criticized for the fact that there was what felt like a surprise downgrade when it came to our bonds. that's a little bit of what's happening here. i would not tell folks to get too nervous yet about the big banks. we're talking about effectively a slight downgrade. i think the bigger issue is the longer term issues around some of the smaller and regional banks, what we're seeing in the real estate market when it comes to the office space, when it comes to folks who bought up lots of properties who are renting them out, whether they're going to be able to pay for those things down the line. if they can't pay for those things, the banks are on the hook. >> it seems like there's been a little bit of movement on the writers strike. >> there is a little bit of movement. this started on friday for the first time in earnest. from a timing perspective, it's worth noting and something else we've talked about on this broadcast many times, for a good number of months, the studios, all of the folks who make these programs, didn't really have an incentive truly to make a deal, meaning, they saved an enormous amount of money over the last several months by not engaging and allowing the strike to take place. they didn't have to prove programming, if you will. it's only now that they're sort of getting forced to do so to actually make a deal, in large part because they need movies next spring and summer. in terms of the actual mechanics of what's at play here, a lot of it has to do with a.i., whether those are going to take jobs from writers, whether it's going to take their credits from those writers. it appears right now on some of those issues that the studios are willing to engage, again, giving writers credit, also giving them potentially a 20% bump on residuals when certain programs air on other streaming platforms. so there does seem to be some movement. there's always been an expectation that the real d-day for getting something done would be labor day. if they do get a deal done by labor day, there are still the actors, which are also on strike, to contend with. there's lots of plates spinning. >> andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much for that. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest on the race for the white house. a new poll finds donald trump maintaining his lead in one battleground state, but a new challenger has taken over the second place spot. we'll tell you who that is. plus, a new report on the gop leader attempting to battle with what the former president has done to his party. former p has done to his party. this is w. ♪ they're why we walk. ♪ we walk in the alzheimer's association walk to end alzhiemer's because we're getting closer to beating this disease. join us. struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? 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>> yeah. it was very disheartening. >> reporter: officials now examining the timeline of events. here's what we know. a brush fire near lahaina was first reported around 6:30 tuesday morning, while some evacuations were ordered, maui officials thought they had it under control, announcing 100% containment around 9:00 a.m., possibly giving residents a false sense of security. just hours later, hurricane-force winds caused the fires to explode. officials say emergency sirens were not activated. >> there will be multiple reviews at every level. >> reporter: as fire approached their car, this woman and her family got stuck in traffic, the intense heat palpable from inside. >> my son was like, oh mom, is this it? what do you tell your kids? >> reporter: with no way out, they had to flee on foot. that's when she saw this car with a little girl trapped inside. >> i grabbed her. she was sitting on a blanket. i wrapped her with the blanket and i told my kids, you guys run, don't turn around and look for me. she just kept telling me, mom, i can't. >> reporter: luckily they survive, her family now safe. >> my heart is in lahaina. lahaina is home, period. >> tom llamas with that report. coming up, there is a new challenger in second place in the 2024 republican presidential race, at least in one early primary state. we'll tell you who that is, next on "morning joe." ♪♪ if you have heart disease and are on a statin, lowering cholesterol can be hard. diets and exercise add to the struggle. today, it's possible to go from struggle to cholesterol success with leqvio. with a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by over 50% and keep it low with two doses a year. common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, urinary tract infection, diarrhea, chest cold, pain in legs or arms, and shortness of breath. ask your doctor about twice-yearly leqvio. lower. longer. leqvio. ♪ my cpa told me i wouldn't qualify for the erc tax refund, so i called innovation refunds. their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligible. 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togo's. he wants to have his cake and eat it too. if the charges happened three years ago, he would have said there's no investigation or rush to judgment. look, running for president is his choice. no one else is making him do it. but it is not an excuse for the justice system not to continue to operate. >> former new jersey governor and 2024 republican presidential candidate chris christie commenting on donald trump's latest indictment. meanwhile, in the latest poll, christie has surpassed ron desantis with 9% supporting the former new jersey governor. support for the florida governor is now in single digits at 8%. in a presidential matchup between joe biden and donald trump, biden leads trump 48 to 41%, while donald trump appears to have a tight grasp on the majority of the republican party. at least one prominent gop leader is attempting to battle what the former president has done to his party. for more on this, let's bring in senior political columnist for politico jonathan martin. his latest piece is inside the gop leader's attempt to thwart trump. you write in part, mitch mcconnell has made it his practice to dodge questions about donald trump, which is why it was so striking last month to sit in mcconnell's capitol office and have him repeatedly steer our conversation toward trump. of all the ways trump has reshaped the republican party, it's clear that mcconnell sees the drift toward isolationism as the most pernicious, particularly at a time when the fate of ukraine and perhaps even nato countries could be determined by the resolve of the republican party. that's interesting, this interview. can you tell us more about it? >> sure. yeah, one of the things i've been struck by this year that's sort of happening in plain view but hasn't been digested is mit mcconnell's attempt to keep the republican party supporting ukraine, supporting nato, and really supporting a kind of traditional reaganite foreign policy which, mika, you know, 20 years ago would not have even been an issue in the republican party. of course it was the party of the hawks, but obviously now that's in question because large part of what trump has done to reshape the party and move it more toward isolationism. and mcconnell is kind of the last of the mohicans on a reaganite form policy, at least along the big figures importantly in the party. so he has privately and publicly tried to steer his party, at least in the senate, toward ukraine, toward confronting russia. and trying to bring along the kind of next generation of senate republicans to keep them on that same reaganite path that obviously with trump leading the party, and with a lot of trump acolytes in the house, it is not going to be easy to keep getting money out of this congress for ukraine. >> jonathan, i think you spent time with mcconnell before he had that incident at the press briefing where he froze for 20 seconds. >> yes. >> what did you make of his health and what did the people you spoke to about him tell you about their concerns about his health? >> well, this is why this column, i think, was poignant is because i started doing this piece, you know, a few months ago after he had the fall in march at a washington hotel. and, you know, every time i would talk to somebody about mcconnell and about sort of this mission to keep the party where it's been on foreign policy, you know off the record or on background they would say something, like, have you seen mcconnell recently? have you talked to mcconnell of late? and that would lend to a separate conversation about his health, about his condition. and so, yeah, i saw him in his office a week before he had that freeze up on camera. and he's noticeably declined. in part because of the after effects of that fall and in part because his hearing has gotten really bad. he can't hear as much. and so this is why this moment is extraordinary. here we are, watching this counteroffensive in ukraine, which is going to be so important to keep the money flowing from nato and the west, and their greatest champion in the republican party is an increasingly frail state in his own life back here in america. i would add one more thing, there is a democratic governor of kentucky who would potentially appoint a mcconnell successor if mcconnell vacates that seat while that governor is still in office. so, that just really adds to this moment. >> and despite even the presence of that democratic governor, among those wishing the best for mitch mcconnell's continued health and service, senior people around president joe biden because they know how important he is to keeping the funding going to ukraine, but, your story makes a really important part -- point here that you and i talked about yesterday, this contradiction, mcconnell dedicated his career to being a bulwark between the trump isolationism and the rest of the republican party. he could have avoided all this if he had cast his vote to convict trump in the second impeachment trial and rallied ten more republicans with him. something he probably could have done. tell us about that moment. >> it is what makes this moment all the more rich is that this is mcconnell's way of confronting trumpism, trying to keep the party away from isolationism. but it wouldn't nearly be the challenge if trump was not still the de facto head of the party and the likely next nominee of the party and the reason he is, in part, is because mitch mcconnell did not try to find, you know, ten senators, ten more senators beyond the seven who voted to convict trump of that second impeachment in february of 2041. if mcconnell himself had voted to convict and found nine more republican senators, no easy task, i'll give you that, this would not be nearly a factor because trump would not be eligible to run for president again by the constitution. and, guys, that's one of history's great counterfactuals, the what if, what if mcconnell tries to round off the extra senators. 17 and 7 who voted to convict. now, he didn't do it. the public claim was, well, you can't go after a president on impeachment who is already out of office. we also know it was because of politics. his coffers didn't want to go there. >> he didn't have the votes and he's great at counting votes and the last thing he could afford to do, a lot of people couldn't understand why he acted so strongly on january 6th, why he spoke out so decisively against president trump, but voted against impeaching him, he didn't have majority and he couldn't run the minority moving forward had he done that. you talk about guys like me who are republicans that, you know, raised in reaganism and in the shadow of reaganism. cold war years, my whole family, cold war years. >> yeah. >> so to speak, in their mind. donald trump's one thing. tommy tuberville is quite another. he is among the senators. we now have -- no republican would have ever done this when i was in congress. i was on the armed services committee. where i'm from, northwest florida, five, six military bases, those people, anytime -- those admirals, generals, colonels, anytime we mixed abortion with readiness or social issues with readiness, man, they would dress us down in a second and say keep it to military readiness. i'm just curious, these republican senators have to be horrified. tuberville going on tv sounds like, you know, a spokesperson for vladimir putin, ukraine can't win. >> if shelby was still in office next to him, that's what shelby is saying now, the senior senator from alabama, joe, it is pure tribalism. the fact is that he's a republican doing it and there is not going to be folks speaking out against him because he's in the same tribe. that's where we are. it is different than when you were in congress, but that's where we are right now. and it is all the more remarkable that mcconnell, i think, is fighting this fight against trump isolationism because obviously it is the opposite of where the party is going. >> politico's jonathan martin, thank you very much. and that does it for us for now. stay tuned to msnbc all day for continuing coverage of the fourth indictment of former president donald trump. ana cabrera and jose diaz-balart pick up the coverage after a quick final break. pick up the coverage after a quick final break. insurance pln that's smart now... i'm 65. and really smart later i'm 70-ish. consider an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. with this type of plan, you'll know upfront about how much your care costs. which makes planning your financial future easier. so call unitedhealthcare today to learn more about the only plans of their kind with the aarp name. and set yourself and your future self up with an aarp medicare supplement plan from unitedhealthcare. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you. so call now or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty. right now, special coverage as fulton county georgia indicts donald trump, the former president and 18 top allies, facing charges of racketeering and conspiracy, accused of knowingly and willingly attempting to overturn the state's 2020 vote.

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