concerned that evidence sought by his former fixer, michael cohen, and half a billion dollar lawsuit, could incriminate the former president. michael cohen goes on the record, live, a little later. and must see tv. congresswoman jasmine crockett joins us live to make the case for televising the trump trials. all of this and more is coming up. >> and a good saturday morning to you all, i'm katie phang. we begin this hour with new developments in one of the several cases against the twice impeached, now thrice and dated, one term disgraced ex president. overnight, the department of justice, seeking to have a federal judge impose a protective order on criminal defendant, donald trump. in special counsel jack smith's 2020 election case. the doj is concerned, rightfully, in my opinion, that trump will share sensitive and confidential information. and it's likes to trump's own inflammatory social media posts in which trump appears to vow revenge. it's important to note that on thursday during trump's third and probably not last arraignment, the judge told him that bribing influencing, or retaliating against witnesses is a crime, and would violate his bond. to add insult to injury, last night, during his first campaign appearance since the arraignment, trump went after jack smith again. calling him quote, the ranged and a lost soul. joining me now, joyce vance, msnbc legal analyst, former u.s. attorney in alabama and professor of law, excuse, me at the university of alabama school of law. and barbara mcquade, msnbc legal analyst, former u.s. attorney in michigan, and law professor at the university of michigan law school. both are co-hosts of the hashtag sisters in law podcast. good morning. ladies, it's so nice to have you here. joyce, i want to start with you. obviously, what's top of my mind right now is this motion for protective order. as we all know as former prosecutors, protective orders are not rare in cases at all, frankly. especially in cases like this. but joyce, when it comes to the actual immediate response that we got from the doj, you bet truth social post, the doj did it very clear in the motion that they have a concern about a quote, harmful, chilling effect on witnesses or an adverse effect on other administration of justice in this case. what's the likelihood of success for jack smith on this motion for protective order? >> so, the protective order, as you point out, katie, is routine. and it's very likely due to be granted. jack smith makes a compelling point in the motion that this is just for starters. that, it can be altered at the request of either party, at anytime. but once this motion is in place, discovery can move forward. everyone is interested, maybe except for donald trump, in the expeditious administration of justice. so, i think we'll see the judge granted this relatively quickly. maybe with minor alterations. but nothing in here is objectionable. you know, the marquee moments in this motion, faux, is the inclusion of trump's truth social posting, where he makes what can only be seen as a threats. this is someone who's ego is so small he undoubtedly felt challenged by the federal judge who admonished him in court, that he couldn't commit any additional crimes if you wanted to stay out on a pretrial bond. so, this is his efforts to our response. and now, jack smith is showing him people call him on these responses. that's donald trump, citizen sharp, a defendant, can no longer violate the law as he wishes to. he can no longer threaten people on social media. i think this is a long overdue moment. >> you know, barb, in fairness, there was a statement issued by a trump spokesperson that said that truth social post everyone 's on the screen was the quote, definition of political speech and was in response to write notes, et cetera. you know, barb, i just want to talk to you about this. one of the arguments or defenses that's been kind of, i say test ballooned by trump's legal idea, is this idea that chuck smith is going after him for free speech. is this in, anyway, if this protective order is granted, is this, in any way, curbing donald trump's ability to exercise his right to free speech? >> that is such an excellent point, katie, but jack smith is not asking for here is any sort of gag order on donald trump. what they're instead asking for is that he not be permitted to share any of this discovery material, or talk to or about the witnesses. you can imagine jack smith says is he wants to provide early discovery to donald trump. sometimes, in a violent crime case, when you're very concerned about a witness safety, but law does not require prosecutors to turn over witnessed eight months until after the witness has testified in trial. most judges want you to turn it over early. in this, case to move things along, jack smith said i want to turn over all these women statements right away. you can imagine donald trump, when he has a witness statement by hypothetically, a mark meadows or somebody else who was in his life, it's not testifying truthfully against donald trump. we can imagine donald trump, on social media saying, just found that mark meadows or whoever it is fill in the blank has betrayed me. he is putting out the bat signal to all of his supporters everywhere, the kinds of people who answered a call on january six, to now target mark meadows, or whoever that witness may be. so, this protective order is designed very narrowly to protect the people who will be witnesses in this case, and to allow the integrity of the process to go forward. >> joyce, another one of the alleged offenses we can reasonably anticipate from donald trump is this idea of reliance upon legal counsel. we also heard the trump defense team indicate he was listening to quotes, and esteemed constitutional styler and john eastman, putting aside i don't think a steamed constitutional scholar brits were john eastman, but you know, that's one of the possible defenses here. we're all lawyers. how feasible do you think this defense could be advanced? i want to make sure it's clear our readers understands, reliance on advice of counsel's and affirmative defense. so, what would it take, joyce, for donald trump to try to prove about affirmative defense during a trial? >> right. so, the last part of your question, katie, is a very savvy question. donald trump would not be able to put any of his lawyers on the witness stand that trial, because they've been identified as coconspirators. they would have fifth amendment privileges against self incrimination. so essentially, you only way he could make out this affirmative defense would be by taking the witness stand himself. which is, of course, fraud. even if he were to do that, though, this defense is a nonstarter. and let me make an important point here. not every argument that donald trump will make in the course of this trial will be a bad one. there are meaningful arguments that can be put forward. the defensive advice of counsel, reliance on, it is a legally recognize defense. but it does not fit the facts here. because donald trump was out making these claims and putting these plans in motion before rudy giuliani really brought this secondary team of lawyers and. he was already out ahead of this. you can't rely on the advice of counsel if your counsel or your coconspirators. in a criminal prosecution, that is perhaps one of the reasons we see this inclusion. and ultimately, the defense here simply doesn't work for trump, although in other cases, it is a legitimate one. >> barb, i've got less than a minute, sadly. i do want to quickly talk about that upcoming august 28th date. judge tanya tonkin, excuse, me saying you've got to come to the table with dates for proposed trials. i wrote a piece that i got a little bit raised on, but i just want? people to understand the realities of trial scheduling. what are the realities of this case. i'm talking about this january 6th case going to trial before november of 2024? >> i think it's absolutely reasonable to give this case trial before the member 2024, but i think a lot of people are expecting a child with 70 days. it says the trials are right to trial in 70 days, but is the defendant himself who wants more time. the public also was the right to us to be the trial, because as time goes on, memories fade. witnesses you come on available, so, there is an interest in a speedy trial here. i imagine there will be some kind of compromise and it's the judges stop to make sure that those interests, the defendants, who process rights in the public right to a speedy trial, are satisfied and absolutely can be done by having a trial maybe next summer, next spring, next fall. certainly, before november of 2024. >> joyce vance and barbara mcquade, i always love it when you guys take the time to join me. thanks for getting us started this morning. and coming up later, running from the law. our friends of the show, alien muscle, inspect to explain why he says trump will either be the 47th president of the united states or spend the rest of his life in prison. you don't want to miss that. but first, destruction 2024. donald trump could spend more time in courtrooms than on the campaign trail. so, is this a real chance for any of trump's challengers to pull ahead of the pack? our saturday morning power political panel goes in-depth, straight ahead. we've got so much more of the katie phang show. keep it right here on msnbc. n msnbc. 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>> this is a ron desantis who is understanding the strategy that he had adopted wasn't working, and was never going to work, katie. you cannot beat someone by following them. you cannot beat someone by constantly admiring them and praising them even once so many people know that person is lying. so, desantis is finally realizing, i'm going to have to distinguish myself a little bit from donald trump. i'm not just going to be able to follow him to win the nomination. desantis has used the trump playbook in the past. that's how he became governor of florida. the problem this time is trump's standing in his way. so he's going to have to use another playbook, and i think he's starting to realize that. >> you know, fernand, let's go into your space. that new york time releasing a poll this week both been pulled before the arraignment that happens. donald trump commanding and opposing lead, but by friday, eight new reuters ipsos poll conducted after that third indictment showed that he increase that lead by three points. but pence, pence moved up five points, and desantis tumbled over ten. fernandes, the gop officially become the party of no law and no order? >> well katy, that's been the case for at least five years, from my looks at it. look. the fact of the matter is this is not donald trump's nomination. the best thing that has happened, ironically, has been these indictments. in his cult of personality base, he's able to play the victim. he's doing that strategically, deliberately, and that's why you see him increases numbers. that 34 point lead basically renders ron desantis, also ran desantis, his candidacy, i believe, is now over. and you are looking at who else might emerge. it might be tim scott. it might be nikki haley, it might be vivek. but we're gonna look at somebody else, for all intents and purposes, donald trump has the locker head locked on to this. he's going to take it away from them. >> you know carlos even pence, though, was able to fund-raise. pretty effectively, off of this latest indictment. but last night, he had a town hall. he got booed. he got booed and called a traitor. i know the question that a post you regarding ron desantis. is there still some merit and value to the idea of courting market trump voters? should mike pence actually take a place out of that desantis's new playbook and say no, i'm definitely going to distance myself from donald trump? >> look, katie, i don't know if that strategy is going to work. it's the only one that can work. donald trump is a chronic and compulsive liar. the only way you can hope to beat him, and it will be tough, because a lot of these voters are so committed to him, but the only way you can hope to beat him is with the truth. it's by telling people, this is what actually happens. in 2020. this is what happened on january six. we don't want to go back to that. republicans, we want to win! in 2024. this is not donald trump, the candidate, who is most likely to help us. when that is the only strategy. that's the only way. but these candidates are driven by their fear of trump and the maga base, that they refused to say this. the longer they refused to say it, the longer they're going to be lagging in the polls. if they don't, you know, take this opportunity, you can see someone like youngkin or someone else come into this race and really captured the imaginations of some of these voters that might say well, i like trump, but maybe we should go with someone else. >> but fernand, to carlos's point, there's an online pool that we just talked about from reuters ipsos on the days after the indictment, it shows nearly half of republican voters say they would not vote for donald trump if he is convicted of a felony. i mean, half is pretty decent. you see on the screen. 35% said they would still vote for him. but i, mean if we're actually getting to the point where almost half of republican voters wouldn't vote for a felony convicted donald trump, is this a turning in the tide of those types of voters? >> i don't think so, because i, mean we've had this national -- almost seven years. what's it's going to be to knock donald trump off of his base? i keep saying it over and over again. this is a personality cult party, and the leader of that personality cult is donald trump. as long as donald trump desires that nomination right now, his very freedom, personal freedom, depends on that nomination. and he intends to keep going for. it's not going to be taken away. i admire what carlos curbelo, the congressman, is suggesting. i think that logic in that reason would work in a same party. which is not today's republican party, unfortunately. donald trump has this nomination on lockdown. and no one's going to take it away. >> carlos, i've got less than a minute. i mean, my question for you is this. the democrats are gonna file and on this right now. some free advice? i know you are a republican, but for advice to the democrats, what should we be doing to capitalize on all of this criminal drama going for donald trump right now? >> the best thing democrats can do is take a step back and let donald trump dominate the headlines. so, this theory has been tested three times already. donald trump and his base has been rejected by the party in three consecutive general elections. 2018, when republicans were swept out of the house, in response to donald trump and his policies and his style. 2020, when trump was voted out, and 2022, when republicans were supposed to dominate those midterm elections, and really failed to do so, only winning the house by a few votes. so, we already know what a majority of the country thinks about donald trump and his movement. so, if i was a democrat, i'd be happy to see donald trump dominating the headlines and the republican base still supporting him. >> i'm out of time, fernando. very quickly. cafecito challenge. is it going to be donald trump as the gop? nominee? >> absolutely. i mean, look. he could be found guilty. -- yeah. >> okay, carlos? >> i'm going to take the other dog here and say no, to give fernand a chance to win back the cafecito he had to give me last time. >> ladies and gentlemen, former representative carlos curbelo, fernand amadi, thanks for being here. i appreciate it. and still to come on the katie phang show, cohen versus trump. former trump counsel, michael cohen, joins me next to talk trump's 500 million dollar lawsuit against him, and the meaning behind trump's menacing social media posts. we'll break it all down, coming up next. up next. pano ai chooses t-mobile for business for 5g solutions... ...because t-mobile helps pano ai innovate, so they can stop the spread of wildfires. now's the time to see what america's largest 5g network can do for your business. you know that feeling of having to rewash dishes that didn't get clean? 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(vo) subaru is the national park foundation's largest corporate donor, helping expand access for all. >> while all eyes are on the latest trump indictment out of washington, d.c., did you know there's also another legal battle involving the former president taking place right here in the florida court? the 500 million dollar lawsuit trump filed against his former fixer michael, cohen, alleging the spreading of falsehoods and violations of attorney client privilege has hit evidentiary impasse. after cohen requested the production of documents, trump's legal team hits back, citing a quote, self incrimination concern. bloomberg reports quote, trump argued in a court filing wednesday in miami that documents sought by cohen, particularly trump organization financial records, should be covered by a confidentiality order. amid the former presidents separates criminal proceedings. national security attorney bradley moss summed it up best, tweeting quote, yeah. this is what happens when you don't think through your loss before you file it. joining me now is the host of the main culprit and political beatdown podcast, the author of revenge and disloyal, and the principal owner of crisis x. most importantly for this conversation, the former legal counsel to donald trump, michael cohen. michael, friends, it's good to see you on the show. let's go straight into it. what is your reaction to trump's team expressing concern in that lawsuit? let me be clear for our viewers, trump sued you for half a billion dollars. and when you asked for production of documents, which you're allowed to do under the rules or procedure, their answer is, we really can't turn over because it could potentially incriminate trump in his criminal cases. >> yeah. you probably like what bradley moss, and you probably should've thought before you file, the cause you can't have it both ways. not only did he not want to turn over the documents pursuing to the fifth amendment, that writing he, itself criminally shun, but he wanted to have the deposition 90 days after the election. so, he brings this lawsuit in 17 months later, he is willing to sit down, or at least, to discuss sitting down for a deposition. the court has already stated no, we have a september six deposition date. it's going to be a very interesting date, to say the least. >> michael, last night, trump said on truth social, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. he's also shared video clips with similar language, where he said if you f around with us, if you do something bad to us, we are going to do things to cue that i've never done before. earlier this year in march, he put on social media, potential death and destruction if a false charge, and it would be catastrophic for our country. i mean, michael, should the judges and all of trump spending cases put a gag order and or revoke trump's bonds, because his words posed a very real threat of harm to witnesses, prosecutors, judges, and others, including you? >> well, that's the big problem. right now, everybody is worried about themselves. so you see for example, the district attorney, alvin bragg. you see some of the judges. you see some of the prosecutors, they're all saying hey, look. this type of language it's absolutely unacceptable. there is no ifs, ands, or buts about. it is unacceptable, the people that they are not protecting or the people they are not including, at least in the conversation, are the witnesses. now, look, i have to be very clear about it. at least here in new york, 70 plus percent of the people are massive, even now, team cohen fans. but that doesn't mean that you don't have people who are still on team trump. this is a very dangerous scenario that it's a dangerous game that they're playing. it is not just donald trump that is doing this. we saw ron desantis the other day, talk about flipping throats. this rhetoric that they are putting out there, this dog whistle to action on their behalf. it is not only, you know, what are we going to do? are we going to say oh my gosh? i can't believe this happened? you know, poor so-and-so. it's going to be an after the fact? or what process is being done within which to stop this rhetoric, this dog whistle, of trump and desantis and other matches and other gop members coming to donald's aid? whether they think they're doing it or not? >> and to your point, michael, we did see them come to trump's aide on january six. we saw the violence that ensued because trump called them to arms. but in related, we have a clip we want to play quickly from february of 2019. that is more than four years ago, michael. when you testified before the house oversight committee. let's take a quick listen. >> given my experience working for mr. trump, i fear that if he loses the election in 2020, that there will never be a peaceful transition of power. >> michael, like nostradamus, your predicting how your former boss would react if he lost. what can we expect in 2024 if, and i'm going to emphasize if, if donald trump gets the gop non-antics able to run from prison, maybe, what is going to happen? can you predict? >> yeah. let me say that i believe that whether it's the alvin bragg to be a case, whether it's one of the t were both of jack smith's cases, the soon to be fani willis indictment, and then again, the insurrection, january 6th matter. i believe that donald trump will be held accountable for all, all of the allegations that are being raced against him right now, especially the three he is currently in court on. i believe the cases are not difficult to prove. some a little more difficult than others, but they are not difficult to prove. there is what, over 70 plus counts so far? obviously, once fani willis files, hers there is going to be -- up to the three figures. he will be held accountable and i believe he will also be found guilty. now, the question is, will be 15% of the gop who claim that they will not vote for donald trump if, in fact, he is convicted, will they pull away? and if, in fact, they do, it would make no difference. the numbers don't work for him. they don't work even right now. but they will work, obviously, even less if, in fact, the convictions come down and when he loses, to joe biden again in 2024, the real danger, again, goes back to our previous conversation. which is, how will donald trump and other members of the gop react? will they continue with the dog whistle? will they continue to obstruct justice? will they continue to threaten witnesses, judges, prosecutors, and others? you know, it's not going to be easy to put it on a case if you don't have witnesses. and witnesses really need to be protected. myself included, from the dog whistle that donald and desantis and others are blowing right now. >> michael cohen, as always, i appreciate your transparency on this. thanks for joining us today. >> good to see you, katie. >> and coming up after the break, the trial of the century? perhaps, trials. dozens of congressional democrats are making the case for trump's federal trials to be televised. coming up next, i'm going to talk to one of them. congresswoman jasmine crockett, on why the american public must see these proceedings for themselves. keep it right here. you are watching msnbc. ng msnbc that's me before dawn powerwash. soaking, scrubbing...that's life. was life. now, powerwash gives me the power of an overnight soak in minutes. i'm sorry, minutes? 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when the dnc said, it nothing happened to them, either. so stop using government to go after people politically disagree with you. >> mccarthy finds the spine. meanwhile, republicans would prefer you focus on the bidens. particularly hunters business associate, devin archer, and his closed-door testimony before the house oversight committee earlier this week. although, as the transcript released this thursday, show it certainly was not as damning as many republican lawmakers claimed it would be. joining me now, democratic texas congresswoman, jasmine crockett. congresswoman crockett, what do you have to say to your colleagues across the aisle who are clamoring to defend the indefensible charges against defendant trump? first of all, could morning. year commentary about the speaker finding his fine is hilarious to me. he is definitely spineless. the idea that the biggest scandal that i remember, when obama was an office, was his hand soup. they were all up in arms about pantsuit. now there is nothing to see with three separate indictments in multiple states, on multiple levels, it is absolutely ridiculous. no one is being prosecuted for their thoughts. he is being prosecuted for his actions, along with his coconspirators in the various indictments that he has. we have seen jack lay out, in multiple pages of indictments, what has been described on y'all zephyr as a shouting indictment in this last indictment. he has clearly laid out the actions of, not only trump, but his coconspirators. honestly, anyone who is paying attention on january 6th, we saw what his actions lead to. no, it is not his thoughts, it is his actions. it is absolutely ridiculous that he has these actions playing out by my colleagues on the other side of the aisle, you know? they are getting dangerously close, in my opinion, to criminal culpability in and of themselves, as well. if i were them, i would stop taking so many actions and continue to express your thoughts. they are the ones that are weaponizing government. they are taking our committees and they are running these sham trials on behalf of trump. we have said over, and over, and over that in a minute they are going to have to turn in as he see filings because of all of their contributions that they're giving to the trump campaign. >> i will pivot briefly because i'm glad you brought up the oversight committee and the waste of time that is happening in d.c. to the detriment of the american public. house republicans were hoping for bombshell when they had devin archer testify before the house oversight committee. that bombshell actually blew up in their face. archer said there were roughly 20 phone calls in which hunter biden put his father joe biden in the speakerphone in the presence of business associates. i want to emphasize this. archer said that the brief conversations focused on pleasantries like but whether or fishing, not official business. congresswoman, more time and resources wasted by republicans on the oversight committee chasing the lies and nothing burgers. >> absolutely. that is all that they have. this is the republican majority that has no ability to govern. it is really sad. i am wondering, did you campaign on these things? the answer is, no. you didn't campaign on these things. now that your front runner is finally facing some sort of consequences this is the problem. for people who do not understand what privilege looks like, let me tell, you are seeing privilege on full display. this man, who had no business ever serving as president as the first place, we know the words that came out of his mouth. people still supported him. in fact, y'all had a poll recently that said that there were at least close to 30% of the republican party that would still vote for him even if he was sitting in prison. that is what privilege looks like. honestly, i'm going to be real, as a black woman in this country i could not do half the things that trump had done they say, you know what? we are still gonna vote for him? this has still turned into a call. this is not a party. i want to go back to some sense of normalcy with a two party system and governing looks like neither party is necessarily either excited. instantly knee in the middle somewhere and we get things done. right now this party is not doing good for anyone. i would urge anybody -- i know the maga republicans are not watching you this morning, katie. they have different stations are they tend to fancy. >> maybe they are. >> i would encourage people that if you really believe in a democracy, start voting for people that are serious about taking care of the citizens in this country. stop voting for someone who only cares about himself and his criminal friends. when you look at what crime family looks like, it looks like trump and his associates. he has had close to ten of his associates be convicted more are coming. >> a man. the congresswoman jasmine crockett. i don't have anything left to say we will be right there. i appreciate you for joining me this morning. i will leave right there. >> absolutely. >> coming up next, high stakes. trump has at least 99 problems with the gop ain't won. it is our nation's worst case scenario. having a convicted felon at the 47th president of the united states. ali yang mystal has a few thoughts on the other side of this break. you do not want to miss a keeper right here on the katie phang show on msnbc. n msnbc. blocks heartburn for a full 24 hours. for one and done heartburn relief, prilosec otc. one pill a day, 24 hours, zero heartburn. 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maybe. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. no matter how many trials are carried out against the twice impeached, thrice indicted, liable for sexual abuse former disgraced president of paramount fact remains, the gop just can't get enough of him. trump is the current front runner in the 2024 republican print -- his lead growing every day even with three indictments and another growing in the pipeline. this time it is different. this time he is running from the law. if that makes you feel uneasy about what is at stake for the entire country, you are not alone. our next guest explains. trump's left for two options for the road ahead. when the 2024 election or go to jail. joining me now elie mystal justice correspondent at the nation host a podcast contempt of court and allow me to retort, a black eyes guys to the constitution. elie, my, friend walk us through your breakdown of trump's fate. how do you expect all of this to play out? how does it go down in history? >> this is, really, the first time in american history where a person has had to when the office of the presidency in order to stay out of jail. that puts trump on poor with other coup leaders, other insurrections leaders the world over. it is the first time in this happened here, right? one of the things we know that we can ascertain based on history, based on how other countries do it, most of the other countries do not let their attempted coup leaders get another shot at running for president. our country is. we are going to try to do this in such a way that still gives trump an opportunity to run for president and when the power he so desperately needs to stay out of jail, right? that is because even if he is convicted. if you believe that this case is built for speed. somehow, he will be magically brought to trial before the election and convicted and sentenced and sees the inside of jail cell before the election. even if you believe all of that, there is no bar on trump running for president from prison. there is no constitutional problem with him running for president from prison. he can do that because he wasn't charged with insurrection, right? there are a lot of reasons he wasn't. i'm not second guessing jack smith. i understand what we are here. without insurrection charge, without the sedition charge, there is no way to trigger section three of the 14th amendment. it's the only thing that could have barred him from seeking higher office. he was not impeached. he was not charged with sedition. he gets to run again. that is weird on the world stage. >> elie, we talk about the phrase sunlight being the best disinfectant. congresswoman jasmine crockett, i had her on before you, she as well as many other house democrats asking, if not demanding, trump's trials be televised. could chief justice john roberts actually be tele-allowed trump's trials to be televised? >> compelled, no. he could wake up tomorrow and decide i want this to be televised and i can make this happen. yes. it is completely within judge john roberts control to make it happen. no one can -- make him do it because he's a supreme court justice appointed for life. a lot hamza say it's a bad idea. here we are. hopefully judge robert says the right thing. we will do -- i want to pick up on the other thing the congresswoman was saying and what you are talking about with kevin mccarthy. unfortunately, you guys don't do it. i have spent my weekend reading the wall street journal. jonathan hurly and a bunch of bad faith, bad lawyers who are making terrible arguments out there about trump's legal defenses, right? you have heard, i'm sure, katie, this argument that he is prosecuted for free speech. that isn't 80 argument. to put it very clearly, look, it's live, right, katie? i can sit here on live television that i am a nigerian prince. that is not a crime. everybody, i can say. i'm a nigerian prince. i just got off the plane. once i say i am a nigerian prince. please give me your credit card information so that i may release my own funds. now we have gone from a line that, is not criminal, to fraud. which is criminal. that is the difference. that is what trump has done. he has taken his lines and turn them into fraud by trying to obstruct the elections process. trying to change the vote and trying to deprive people of their civil rights. that is not free speech. that is fraud. people like the wall street journal they know better. they are just engaging in their first amendment rights to lie. >> five out of the six coconspirators in this latest trump indictment are lawyers. i'm not gonna say the shakespeare quoting, right? the first thing that we do is blank but lawyers. you and i are lawyers. it bothers me, immensely, deeply, the five out of the six coconspirators are lawyers and that indictment. how far off the path of decency and ethics have these lawyers veered when they are assisting and conspiring to commit crimes in violation of federal statutes to aid somebody, like donald trump? >> that is the fed for you. what these people have done is tried to use the law to overthrow democracy. the said sock has been doing that subtly for a generation. these guys were the intellectual weekend of doing. it brazen and foolish about it. but the fundamental premise here that you can use legal tricks and lies and misinformation to overturn democracy and control how the country operates, that is not new. that comes from bush versus gore this is the same idea behind bush versus gore but just a little more illegal. it worked out for them, they thought it would work out again. they just went too far. they crossed too many lines here. now they are in trouble. i am not embarrassed for them as lawyers because this is what these people do. it is what people have been doing for a generation. >> elie ying mystal, i have always looked at you as being legal ron t. i will zell you my information. my nine year prince. when we are done today. elie ying mystal, get back to your kids. tell them that was because donald trump has been indicted, we still have work to be done. thank you for joining us this morning. >> always. cheers. >> my thanks to all of you for joining me this morning. i will be back here tomorrow when the cofounder of the lincoln project, rick wilson, joins me to discuss the rough wake up call for never trumpers. so-called normal republicans are floundering in the primary polls. remember, you can keep up with us but following at the katie phang show on twitter, instagram, and tiktok. stay tuned in the saturday show with my friend, jonathan kaye part, is coming up next. want a smarter way to mop? 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