precedent. we have to do everything we can. >> senator, always good to talk to you. thank you for joining us. she is on the science and transportation and is the co-sponsor of this new legislation before the senate. a vote will be held on wednesday. do not go anywhere. straight ahead, pressley an i discuss that this is having control over women. another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ good morning. it is saturday the may the 7th. it is 9 am in the east. it has been five days since we got the post row reality that the supreme court is poised to usher in with the sam alito draft opinion erasing abortion rights in america. we still do not fully understand the far-reaching consequences that this decision could have. the implications of rolling back women's rights in this particular way. using this decision and the reasoning laid out by justice alito will have a ripple effect that is beginning to come into full view. this is as legal experts digest the opinion and anti-and portion this emboldened by this victory. they have draconian ways to stand up the bodily autonomy of our population. conservative states enacted 108 laws restricting abortions in some form or another last year according to the good mark institute. it is a research institute that studies reproductive health right. more than 30 have been enacted. the number of women seeking abortions in the united states has been on the decline. from 2010 to 2019, the number of legal abortions performed in the country each year has dropped by more than 100,000. that downward trend is not because republicans have made it nearly impossible to access abortion care in large parts of the country, what is a contributing factor is a birth control. as recently as a late 2000s, more than half of all pregnancies in the united states was unplanned or on unintended pregnancies. like the number of abortions reported to the cdc, the number of unintended pregnancies have been on the decline. this is plausibly explained by more and better contraception. over the past decade, it has been easier to obtain contraceptives in the united states. the affordable care act requires them to cover all contraceptive methods including iuds, diaphragms, and birth control pills. there's also the plan b emergency contraceptive pill which is available as over the counter that you can easily get at the pharmacy. now that the supreme court is ready to get rid of the right to obtain an abortion, women might be stripped of the rescues contraception's. as granted by roe, it is an implicit right. unlike an explicit right, like freedom of speech, it is not specifically written out anywhere in the constitution. the word abortion does not appear in the constitution. this is a book that was written exclusively by men 130 years before women were even allowed to vote. roe v. wade, the 1973 decision, determined that a woman's choice to determine the right to terminate a pregnancy is based on privacy. it is the duke hall due process clause of the 14th amendment. this interpretation was determined through a number of supreme court cases that came before roe, including a case that was decided eight years earlier in 1965 called griswold v connecticut. in that case, the supreme court came to the conclusion that married couples had the right to marital privacy. therefore, the state could not prevent them from using contraception like birth control pills. the pill is fairly new at the time. it had only been approved by the fda and 1960. 50 years later, the right to privacy would be invoked again in another landmark supreme court case -- versus hodges. via the due process clause of the 14th amendment, the same sex couples have a fundamental right to marriage, just like everyone else. years later, there are justices who still don't think that the court made the right decision regarding same sex marriage. in 2020, justices clarence thomas and alito wrote in a gestation that the court was wrong to endorse, a novel constitutional right, meaning same sex marriage over the religious liberty interest explicitly protected in the first amendment. by doing so, undemocratically, it has created a problem that only the court can fix. until then, obergefell will continue to have a ruinous consequences for religious liberty. and quote. -- legal experts have been concerned that if justice overturned roe it could drag down with it other implicit, meaning not a written into the constitution writes, that have been granted from the court through the interpretation of the due process clause of the 14th amendment. this is part of the reason why the appointees to the court were asked whether or not roe is precedent. >> have your views on whether roe's president or could be overturned, and have your views changed since you are in the bush white house? >> senator, i said that it is settled as a president of the supreme court and titled respect under principles. one of the important things to keep in mind of roe v. wade, it has been reaffirmed many times over the past 45 years. t imesstatements like that have nw been casted to doubt because it appears brett kavanaugh and for other conservative justices appear ready to overturn roe. now, language and the draft leaked opinion is making concerns about the implicit rights to abortion, contraceptive use, and same sex marriage more real. quote, the constitution makes no reference to abortion and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision, including the one on which the defenders of roe now rely. the due process clause on the 14th amendment, and quote. i'm joined now by 14, the president and ceo of the women's law center and the national women's law center action fund. fatima, good to see you. thank you for being with us. as you can see, i am sporting my constitution here. i would like to read the due process clause of the 14th amendment so people know what we are talking about. it says, no state shall make or enforce any law that should abridge the privileges or immunities of the citizens of the united states, nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law or deny anyone within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the law. tell me how this fits into the discussion. but is the due process part? what is the decision resting on? >> over the many decades, what the supreme court has said is that the due process clause, which is a part of the 14th amendment, has left a spear of your life to yourself. the state cannot regulated. it cannot infringe upon it. this small spirit of life over the decades, not just since roe, but decades before, has been a thing that we are not used to. the ability to determine who you want to be in a relationship with. your ability to have the state not interfere with the fact that you want to be in a sexual relationship. your ability to take a contraception. interracial marriage and same sex marriage. all of these are some of the things that are a part of our personal liberties and freedoms. when the draft opinion starts shaking the tree around a row, it is really clear that these are all part of cases that are connected to each other. they are not going to stop at banning abortion. it will go far beyond into allowing the government to infringe on our lives and our futures. >> a lot of people who like me, who are not lawyers, were taken aback by the reference that justice alito made to the rights that abortion are not in norm enumerated in the constitution. they are implicit and not explicitly written in. the constitution, and all of the amendments, were written a long time ago. there are a lot of things that we enjoy by virtue of what you described in that sphere of our lives, that are not written into the constitution. how do you interpret his comments that about if it is not fresh written it is not an existed protection? >> we should be deeply worried. he not only spent a lot of time talking about the specific words that are written out or not, he also spends a lot of time talking about the common law writings of matthew hale from the 17th century. it was not clear in the 17th century, he does not understand how it could have been part of the foundation of our constitution. anyone who was not considered a fully human in the 17th century, should be deeply worried about that rigid interpretation. we should be deeply worried in particular, as women, when at that time, there was not a full control of your life at all. when he is saying that the foundation here has to be the one that has guided the court over the last 100 years, he is totally missing the fact that we had a 19th amendment which granted women opportunities in this country. in addition to the 14th amendment, we have the 13th and 15th amendment. his narrow view will send us back hundreds of years. >> fatima, good to see you again. thank you for understanding these. it is important we all do. she is the president of the international women's law -- th here is coming in from massachusetts. she is the chair of abortions right and task force. she is a cosponsor of the women's health protection act. congresswoman, good to see you. the women's health protection act has passed in congress. it will pass again. the problem here, as i discussed with senator baldwin, is what happens to it in the senate. what is your sense of the legislative path forward to protect abortion rights if roe v. wade is overturned? >> this is not a drill. we have been sounding the alarm for years. none of it was hyperbole. we are probably a accused of being hysterical women. our federal rights to abortion care is under attack. mistakes could not be higher. the senate must act. we have to codify roe v. wade. we should abolish the filibuster. it is clear that the supreme court continues to obstruct the will of the people. the majority of americans support of roe v. wade. they do not want it overturned. the far-right extremism of the supreme court are struggling to voting rights, housing rights, and now when it comes to reproductive freedom justice and bodily autonomy. if you are not outraged, you are not paying attention. the fact that 50% of those who called the country home can have our right to take it away from us, our bodily autonomy, and be forced to birth with all of the other many layered legislative systematic, oppression, and denials. we do not have universal childcare, parental paid leave, a black woman experiencing morbidity, and it is now our most vulnerable, most marginalized, disabled, low income, women of color, african american, indigenous, lgbtq i, siblings, who will be the most vulnerable to this. we have to legislate. i'm looking at you, susan collins, murkowski, we need to legislate, organize, mobilize, because lives depend on it and they do. people will not stop seeking abortion care, which is health care, if this ruling becomes law. they simply will not do it legally. they will not do it safely. >> unlike some of the colleagues, collins and murkowski are open to movement on this. how do you approach that? i was talking to senator baldwin about this. there are things in the bill that they are proposing that is different than with your co-sponsor on. they do not go as far as what you would like to see or what democrats want to see. is there space for negotiation? is there an ability for these two women to unite with democrats and, again, it will not pass until we deal with the filibuster. will they have unity moving forward? >> let me say this. we do not want to give a shortage trip to the power. more often than not, the congress and the senate are not leading but are responding. i want to say to every person who calls this country home, every abortion rights advocate, every constituent, please keep the pressure up. we want to ensure that this senate legislators. lives are at risk because they are. it is time to put every single senator on record. my message to senator collins and ruszkowski is what's side of history will you be on? you claim to be pro-choice so prove it. get every senator on the record. we have to -- we need to legislate like life depend on it. they literally do. >> representative, it is good to see you. thank you for your passionate analysis of how this is going to unfold. it's always good to see you. she is coming in from massachusetts. i know you heard the statistic before that one in four women in the united states are going to have an abortion before the age of 45. we have more on the potential path forward for access to this comment and crucial medical procedure. there's something else going on in washington. the january six committee is continuing the investigation. one of donald trump's right-hand man did not appear for the appearance yesterday. we are on the ground in lviv, ukraine. ukrainian officials are bracing for battle ahead of russia's holiday victory day which is slated on monday. day which is slated on monday do your eyes bother you? because after all these emails my eyes feel like a combo of stressed, dry and sandpaper. luckily, there's biotrue hydration boost eye drops for instant moisture. biotrue uses naturally inspired ingredients. and no preservatives. try biotrue and no preservatives. i don't just play someone brainy on tv - i'm an actual neuroscientist. and i love the science behind neuriva plus. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? yes, please! neuriva. think bigger. i know there's conflicting information about dupuytren's contracture. i thought i couldn't get treatment yet? well, people may think that their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. if you can't lay your hand flat on the table, talk to a hand specialist. but what if i don't want surgery? well, then you should find a hand specialist certified to offer nonsurgical treatments. what's the next step? this morning we are getting a visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. look at a new picture that reportedly shows the aftermath of a ukrainian attack on a russian held island 20 miles off the coast. it is a satellite photo from friday analyzed by the associated press that shows the thick black smoke rising off of snake island, after a series of a joan strikes. we have not independently verified this image. striking this island is tactically key. it could hamper russia's ability to control the black sea. meanwhile, ukrainian officials are bracing for a bloody fight ahead of the holiday victory day this monday. it is the 77th anniversary of the day that marks the soviet victory over nazi germany in world war ii. it is widely celebrated across the world. it is victory in europe day. for this reason, ukrainians feel that russian forces will ramp up attacks to give putin a perceived win. ukrainian fighters at the azovstal steel plant say that russian troops have breached the facility. they launched a battle inside the factory. this is a claim the kremlin denies. there are still over 100 civilians believed to be more than two dozen children sheltered inside of the factory. the humanitarian effort to evacuate them is expected to begin in one hour. joining us from lviv, ukraine, is jay gray. good afternoon to where you are. it is russia's victory day on monday. people have been talking about that for weeks. ukrainians are very worried that vladimir putin needs something to show for this 70 plus day war. >> yes, and there is no question that his antennas defied to the east. we have seen troops frantically giving him something to celebrate as far as victory is concerned in ukraine. there has been a real step up to the fighting in the donbas region. it is a frequently around the clock. they are also hearing news that ukrainian troops have pushed back russian artillery and getting them out of a firing range. both sides are really intensifying what they are doing on the ground. as you talked about, some of the most intense of fighting is coming out of the mariupol region. there are plans to try to open another humanitarian corridor today. in less than an hour, they try to remove civilians that are heading down inside the region. 50 escaped yesterday before things broke down and the fighting resumed. there is a lot of concern from you and about the rescue team and how long they will be able to actively try and rescue civilians today with the fighting continuing. the victory day celebrations, it appears, that russian troops in the couple of days have been clearing away roadways in the areas of mariupol that they occupy right now. they are refurbishing some of the statues. it looks like they may try to hold some type of celebration there. >> let me ask you what you have behind you in lviv. it is a saturday afternoon. it is active. there is musk's -- music. the city has escaped a lot of stuff. there are missile attacks that have landed in lviv. the bombings in the east and aggression in the east are pushing more people to western ukraine. how are you seeing this play out where you are? >> no question, ali. the streets have repopulated after an air raid warning. people cleared out and came back. if you have been on the ground you understand how these people feel especially with regards to all of the refugees being pushed from the east into this area. with a move to try to facilitate some of these families, many of them women and children, the city has now established modular housing. this is according to the chief architect as they get more involved with the city. it makes it feel like home. >> it is an interesting point. when everyone moved from kyiv to lviv, property became unavailable. they saw an increase in property value. there is no housing for them. jake, thank you for your great reporting. he is reporting live from lviv, ukraine. coming up, where in the world is rudy giuliani? he was not at his scheduled appearance for the january six committee yesterday. schedule appearance for the january six committee yesterday. when you need help it's great to be in sync with customer service. a team of reps who can anticipate the next step genesys technology is changing the way customer service teams anticipate what customers need. because happy customers are music to our ears. genesys, we're behind every customer smile. with godaddy you can start a stunning online store for free. easily connect it to social platforms and marketplaces. and manage all your sales from one place. because if you've got it, we've got you. start for free at godaddy.com/startfree it's still the eat fresh refresh, and subway's refreshing their app. so you can customize your favorite footlong, set a pickup time, and jump the line! oh, here she goes! ugh, i thought she was actually gonna jump. just use this code and order on the subway app! four days after the 2020 presidential election, a logistically impaired rudy giuliani popped up in the parking lot of the four seasons landscaping business in philadelphia, just one of his manic attempts to spread lies about the 2020 election. fast forward to two and a half weeks ago, giuliani popped out of a giant jack-in-the-box singing bad to the bone well just as a multi colored bird on the masked singer. yesterday, however, he failed to pop up for his scheduled appearance before the january six committee. at the last minute, the team demanded that he be allowed to the interview after he previously agreed to appear in a transcript interview and the request was denied. yesterday, sentences and guilty pleas for those who participated in the insurrection. one individual who dressed as a caveman while storming the capital was sentenced to eight months in jail. another individual, performing to wear a gladiator costume to portray captain maroney was sentenced to 45 days in prison. everything i just said in those sentences is for real. a video filmed by the captain maroney cause player shows insurrectionists trashing the senate parliamentarian's office. another individual pleaded guilty to assaulting a police officer at the january 6th. he wrapped his arm around the officers neck and pulled him into the crowd of rioters outside the tunnel yelling, i got one. yet another insurrectionist pled guilty and admitted to screaming outside the capital. we definitely have enough people to overthrow this b-word. they do not stand a chance. on january six, the person i was talking about did not censor himself like i just did. these all came days after another one admitted that he and -- this is -- this is a national political correspondent for politico. she is an msnbc contributor. betsy, good morning to you. seemingly small developments. the random insurrectionists pleaded guilty and stuff going on with the january six commission. we are a month over away from hearing public testimony. what do you make of everything that has happened over the next -- last couple of days? >> it is a lot. a whole bunch of things have happened. i think the giuliani development is particularly notable. he obviously knows a lot of information that the committee does not have access to. he was a key member of trump's efforts to lobby state level officials to try to reverse the outcome. anyone in the trump legal team or in the broader orbit of the team, potentially has invalid testimony for the panel. a pressing question is, can the panel in giuliani reach accommodation in the next week or two or do investigators say, too bad, you dragged it out for too long we will hold you in contempt. if they take this step, which they clearly say they are willing to take, it will compound a host of legal problems that giuliani already faces. he is facing tons of lawsuits in relation to the lies that he spread about the outcome. an investigation for the justice department, in new york, looks at an episode that is ancient history now with his connection to the impeachment episode, the first impeachment episode that donald trump was wrapped up in. giuliani was taught in talks with prosecutors about sharing information with them in relation to that pro. if there is a doj referral that the select committee sense over, it is an extraordinary level of legal shower to someone who used to be a top prosecutor in manhattan. who used to be the most powerful law officials in the country and used to be the mayor of manhattan. it is a shocking, extraordinary fall from grace. it's some ways, it is baked in. when you pause and think about it, it is wild. >> he was america's mayor for a hot second. the excellent reporter jonathan swan, was talk about don jr.'s testimony to the committee in which he said that there are text messages, or the committee is interested in the text messages that he sent to mark meadows and the chief of staff. he said, he has to condemn this, swear word, asap. what do we know about this testimony? what was don jr. doing, is saying, and how relevant is it to the operation? >> we know don junior testified voluntarily over a virtual platform last week. it lasted several hours. it was not as long as some of the other trump family members testimonies have been. ivanka provided a longer window testimony then the don junior interview. we do not know what happened in that interview. there is no question at the select committee would have asked him about that text. they highlighted the text. the reason we know that is because they have been open about a number of the text messages that they have obtained. don junior has the potential to be an important witness for them. for all the obvious reasons, he is a member of family. the committee has not sent signs either way as to whether or not they are satisfied with the candor and transparency of don jr.'s testimony. >> betsy, thank you for your analysis, particularly in a week where they have a different moving parts. we need someone to remind us where we are in this investigation. betsy is a national political correspondent for msnbc and political. for most women, the decision to have an abortion is not because of a rape, incest, or medical peril, for most women, it is a medical procedure and a solution to a problem. and of thousands that have been shared on social media, american musician, 50 bridges, tweeted about her mundane abortion writing quote, i had an abortion in october of last year while on tour. i want to planned parenthood where they gave me the abortion pill. it was easy. everyone deserves this kind of access. she linked a list of suggested places to donate. this is velshi. sted places to donate places to donate this does daily stress leave you feeling out of sync? new dove men stress-relief body wash... with a plant-based adaptogen, helps alleviate stress on skin. so you can get back in sync. new dove men. a restorative shower for body and mind. the american dream. for children in rural communities, it's slipping away. the gap between that dream and their reality is shocking. the gap between nutritious food and aching hunger, a good education and falling behind in school. but together, we can change that. with your help, local communities can get the food and resources they need to keep children well-fed and ready for school. if there were ever a time for you to help, it's now. when you join save the children as a monthly donor, you'll help give children across america a chance for a better future. you're doing more. you're giving them the opportunity, the hope, the ability to succeed. please call this number or go online to givemoretosave.org and help children right here in america. for only $10 a month, just $0.33 a day, you can join other caring people and help provide nutritious food, educational opportunities, safety and protection. the need is urgent, and your monthly support now could give children across america and in your own community their best chance at life. a chance to grow, to learn, to thrive, and to achieve bright futures. call or go online now and we'll send you this exclusive save the children tote bag to show you are changing children's lives. we try to make a safe haven with our programs and give them a chance to be kids. you can help give them that chance when you call or go online to join save the children for just $10 a month, only $0.33 a day. "we've had probably the toughest year we've ever had and save the children has been there every step of the way." in these difficult times, children across america are facing hunger and they urgently need someone like you to care. so please call or go online to givemoretosave.org to join us as a monthly donor right now. thank you. imagine having to use the wrong tool at your job. (upbeat music) - let's get into the numbers. - why would a company do that? especially with hr and payroll software. with paycom, employees enter and manage their own hr data in a single, easy-to-use software. visit paycom.com and schedule a demo today. right now, the first lady, dr. jill biden, is in europe for a multi day tour. she touched down in romania yesterday morning. she met with service member stationed there. she participated in a roundtable briefing on how the romanian government is grappling with the ukrainian refugee crisis. today, the first lady stopped at a romanian a public school that is hosting ukrainian refugee students. she is set to spend more time with refugees tomorrow with ukrainian mothers and children who have been displaced due to the russian invasion. men of fighting age are not permitted to leave ukraine. the first lady is the number -- is part of the biden administration to spend time in eastern europe supporting war torn ukraine. before doctor biden headed overseas she sat down with my new msnbc colleague, simone sanders. she asked her about a key domestic issue, one of the only things that people are talking about this week the leaked draft opinion that they will overturn the landmark decision roe v. wade. >> as a mother and as a grandmother, what would you say to young women right now, particularly women who are upset about the possible erosion of their ability to make decisions of their own bodies? >> i guess, the first thing i would say is how shocking it was when we heard the news. joe and i got the call that it had been leaked. the president matters. election of the president matters. he is the one who puts the justices on the court. if this goes to a state level, our state legislators are going to matter to. people need to get involved. >> to catch more of the simone sanders interview with jill biden, tune in at 4 pm eastern for the premiere of simone, right here, on msnbc. it is at 4 pm. what are you going to do at 10 am in 23 minutes? joining me now is another one of my fantastic an impressive colleagues at the host of the msnbc, the cross connection, which is the answer to the aforementioned question, what are you going to do a 10 am. >> good to see you ali, and the new show premiers at ten -- 4 pm. we have a quite a bit coming up on the cross connection today. of course, ali, we will talk about the leaked draft opinion of roe v. wade and if overruled, how it will disproportionately affect low income women and women of color. also, after ruling this week, the victim of the 1921 to tulsa massacre may be closer to getting the reparations they deserve. they have been asking for over a century. we will talk to their lawyer about that. of course, we have to get into midterms. i have an all-star panel. we are going to talk about what is driving voters to the polls and the record numbers we are seeing in early voting, particularly in the state i grew up in it which is georgia. we are going to have an uncomfortable conversation. we need to talk about the role that a white women and the white woman a vote in place in election. it is going to be an uncomfortable but a necessary conversation. we have a panel to get into that. lastly, the britney griner situation is scary. we will have a wnba star, stewart, to join and talk to us about her team mate brittani and the detainment in russia and what this means. they changed her classification to wrongfully detained. we have a packed show of all that and more on cross connection. ali, seriously, can we be in the same studio soon. i need to see your face. >> i would take the opportunity to find out whether you are hosting for hours a tv. all this cannot fit into your two hour show. you make it move, it is fast, exciting, and thank you my friend. we will show you on tv at 10:00 this morning. right after velshi, cross connections starts at ten. -- democratic lawmakers have been searching for solutions. they are finding ideas like expanding the size of the supreme court. we will talk about that next. th supreme court. supreme court. we will ♪ breeze driftin' on by... ♪ if you've been playing down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, it's a new day,... ♪ ...it's time to make a stand. ♪...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ no once-daily copd medicine... has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. it also helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. take a stand and start a new day with trelegy. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy, and save at trelegy.com. is one ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy, mission, life. i get to keep her. we get to have her and enjoy her. and she gets to grow up, which is the best gift anyone could ever give. ♪ life can be a lot to handle. ♪ this magic moment ♪ but heinz knows there's plenty of magic in all that chaos. ♪ so different and so new ♪ ♪ was like any other... ♪ the moment americans heard about the leaked draft opinion that would overturn roe v. wade, everyone who believed in abortion rights started brainstorming the rights to preserve abortion acts in the powerful definitive move to strike it down. we urge to end it donate to abortion funds, they called to the fda to make the pill more excess-able, and some said it's time to mobilize voters for the midterm elections. they are moving to a bill to codify these rights before they are overturned by the court. democrats know that they do not have the votes to overturn a filibuster. the supreme court constituted the way it is, could overturn whatever got past. with all this in mind, some just went straight to the one solution that could actually fix the problem of a trump stacked conservative super majority that is overtaking the supreme court and seems intent on erasing generations of personal rights. changing the composition of the court, specifically by adding seats. this will dilute the power of the arch conservatives that are about to overturn a nearly 50-year precedent and a fundamental right upon which the current functioning of our society has been built. several lawmakers are on board with that idea. massachusetts senator elizabeth warren says and the filibuster. codify roe v. wade with a national law protecting abortion rights. expand the supreme court. stop this horrifying injustice in its tracks. a minnesota congresswoman omar says overturning roe would put the lives of women across the country at risk. it would fly in the face of decades of precedent and the overwhelming majority of public opinion. and they will not stop here. expand the court. new york congressman jones said it to my colleagues, it is not too late to support the only policy that would restore sanity to this broken court, it is not too late to add four seats. he is getting specific to what's expanding the court would look like. joining me now is professor a law of and why you and the former clerk. -- mary joins us who is a historian and professor at uc davis law school including author of abortion and the law in america, roe v. wade to the present. good morning. thank you for being with us. professor murray, let me start with you. expanding the court, court packing, as people who do not like the i diab refer to it, the warning has been that if you do this you affect the legitimacy of the court. you politicize it. supporters would say that the court is politicized sized and this is the only fix. your thoughts? >> i think you are right. the horse is out of the barn on this one. if you have an opinion, when you have justices whose spouses are allegedly sending text messages to the white house and the day of the insurrection at the capitol, i think we already have a politicized supreme court. it's not just out this year. we can go back to 2016 when the republicans still needed that open a seat that president obama was entitled to fill, it goes way back. the real question here is if you want to rebalance the court by expanding it, how are you going to get this through the congress. for the way you cannot get the health protection act through congress, you cannot end the filibuster, you cannot get this through as well. the real question is, can you sustain this kind of energy through the midterm elections, which have been projected to be a loss with the democrats. use this to be gains so that you can actually do some of this domestic work that you want to do, whether it is passing the health protection act or ending the filibuster or doing something that crews could benefit from in terms of the court and its reform. president ziegler, let me ask you two questions. can you do this. can one expand the court without delegitimizing the court? it is the court of -- it is the job of the court to get things done that can be done legislatively? >> i think you could add justices to the court without diligent to my zing it. i think anything we know, historically, is that the legitimacy of the court and the perceived legitimacy of the court is to feel something other than partisan. we know this in part that it is at its all-time low in terms of public approval and says pulling has started. it is connected to the perception that it is partisan. balance the court so that the decisions do not have partisan view and it is a perceived ahead of time. -- we know that we could add justices to the court with different people in congress. as professor murray said, it is a question of how we get that done and if it is possible. that really depends on the midterms. we know, also from polling, that americans, while they have complex attitudes about abortion and do not want row overturned, or want the kinds of bans are merging from the states. if this is right, the question for aggressive is how do you operationalize that? how do you get people to act on abortion and row, rather than de-prioritizing the issue. i think we will see if they can do this in the upcoming midterms. >> professor marie, you talked about expanding it by two seats according to jones going from 9 to 13. well professor ziegler talked about avoiding a partisan hugh, what else would you fix if you are fixing it at this point? it makes sense to expand the court by four seats, what else would you do and say that this makes sure that four generations going forward we can rebuild the trust the public has in his court of not being partisan? >> academics have floated a number of proposals about a court reform. it is not just expanding the court. there's also proposals about limiting terms of justices. this seems to be sensible and has gained traction in the public. in the recent supreme court commission, it is examining the court and not making recommendations but providing assessments. there was appetite among that diverse group of commissioners. we limited justices so that each president would have the opportunity to appoint one justice during her term. we could limit the jurisdiction of the court in terms of certain kinds of topics. for example, there is legislation that limits the courts jurisdiction for prison reform litigation, for example. ric hansen, at the university of irvine, suggests limiting the jurisdiction in places of voting rights and places where the issues are particularly acute and you really want them to be decided based on the political process. >> i will take a quick break. please stay with us. i want to have this conversation after the break. you are watching velshi. we will be right back. velshi. velshi. we will be rightree food, you get a smile on your plate. download the 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start today at godaddy.com/payments xfinity mobile runs on america's most reliable 5g network, if you've got it, we've got you. but for up to half the price of verizon so you have more money for more stuff. this phone? fewer groceries. this phone? more groceries! this phone? fewer concert tickets. this phone? more concert tickets. and not just for my shows. switch to xfinity mobile for half the price of verizon. new and existing customers get amazing value with our everyday pricing. switch today. january 22nd, 1973, will stand out as one of the great days for freedom and free choice. this allows a woman free choice as to whether or not to remain pregnant. this is extraordinary! >> that was doctor alan good market gynecologist and president planned parenthood reacting to the roe decision on january 22nd, 19 73rd. i want to bring back to great guests. you wrote an article in the atlantic at the other day, mary. i want to quoted. this draft accuses the road court not just of being wrong but of lacking empathy, moving too fast, with two little justification, and further inflaming the nations abortion politics. we should count the courts majority in this camp. this is more than a little ironic. at the courts conservatives may school their predecessors for unnecessary dividing the nation on abortion, but they are not above it doing the same thing themselves. what do you mean by that? >> i think that most people who read the draft were not struck by the fact that they overturned roe, not by that they moved quickly to overturn roe in a case they did not have to take, but also the tone and the scornful disdain that the justice and reader draft display toward people who have had abortions and people who disagree with the opinion. i think that any reasonable political observer would expect an opinion like this to polarize a conflict that justice alito describes this as hopelessly divided. it reports to care about polarization and approaches the issue in a way with tremendous lack of respect and empathy for those who support abortion rights. for anything, it is likely to deepen the conflict further. >> professor murray, i want to ask you about the argument that justice alito made in the leaked document about the enumerated rights versus not an emanated rights or explicit versus implicit. abortion is not written into the constitution, but so is a lot of things we do not we take for rights these days. what do you make of it as an expert? >> this is textualism and originalism having all the answers. justice alito, even as he applauds the first eighth amendment of the constitution, he leaves out the night amendment. the ninth amendment specifically says that everything that has been previously enumerated is not intended to suggest that there are rights that are not enumerated that are not recognized or should be disparaged. the ninth amendment is something that he does not mention and cannot mention it because it would give ways to the entire logic here but the ninth amendment would suggest that we do not enumerate everything. we could not enumerate everything. it would be exhaustive. there are some rights that are implied. more particularly, the right to an abortion is not necessarily unenumerated. it is specifically implied from that right of liberty that is in the 14th amendment. as my colleague here at and why you has noted, this guarantee of liberty was intended to impunity all of the vestiges of slavery, including the lack of bodily autonomy and the lack of family integrity that the slaves experienced during this period in the united states. >> professor of the glue, the due process clause that we talked about a lot, was ratified in 1868 and said no state shall make or enforce any law that shall abridge the privileges and rights of members of the united states and -- the ninth amendment was from 1791. it was a lot earlier and clearly as professor murray says, the enumeration of the constitution and certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. it seems that this is pretty clear. the argument that it is not written does not mean it's not exist. >> absolutely. justice alito even acknowledges this because even justice alito does not want to say that every single write that the court is recognizing as unenumerated is going to be abolished by this court. there is a policy disclaimer in the draft where the abortion is different and they are not going to go after same sex marriage, interracial marriage, the right to parent, which people are suggesting would be under fire according to the logic of this opinion. i find this disclaimer not convincing for a few reason. even if you take it seriously, the justification is that abortion is different because of the special value we put on view fetal life. we know that antiabortion groups have declared to be unconstitutional and a violates of fetal rights. if we lean into this abortion is the different logic we will go back into the court and they will have a receptive audience. >> i appreciate you enlightening us on this. we need more. thank you so much professor of law and co-host of the podcast and mary zeigler the professor at uc davis law school and author of after role, the lost history of the abortion debate and the dollars for life, the antiabortion movement and the fall of the movement. that does it for me. thanks for watching. catching back here at eight to 10 am. cross connection begins right now. eight to 10 am. cross connection begins righ now. good morning. welcome to the cross connection. i'm tiffany cross. of course, all week, you have heard of the leaked draft support. it is the outrage that prompted so many -- an