election theory in newly released text trump's chief of staff, and had explained absurd celebration of a long mosques bid to buy twitter. >> twitter, it's an elon musk's hands, can you believe it. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. there's a beef moment in the days after january six where it looked like the republican party, and the leaders of, it at least, not donald trump, might actually do the right thing. at the stark moral truth of sitting in front of them. party leaders kevin mccarthy, mitch mcconnell, were obviously correctly horrified by the violence of the inner insurrection. both men are publicly condemned trump for his obvious on 12 month with citing the attack. they're even more damning of us conducts in private. now we learned that mccarthy was not just concerned about trump. according to leak audio obtained by the new york times, on the january 10th call, just four days after the insurrection, mccarthy also expressed concerns that republicans in his own conference might incite violence against their fellow party members. party members. that's our model moment of moral clarity. i don't want to look back and think someone got hurt. i don't play politics with anybody. mccarthy sing a lot of republican congressman matt gates in florida someone who's inflammatory rhetoric might get people hurt. mccarthy was wary that gates who frequently criticize fellow republicans by name for being insufficiently loyal to trump in his eyes, was inflaming tensions at a time when the country was already in volatile position. he was a concern echoed by others in the call, including the number two republican in caucus, a man who was shot, we should remember, congressman steve scalise. >> [inaudible] a lot of members have said some real concerning things. >> did they say something, to? >> mall was at the rally. they were taking names at the trump rally. [inaudible] [inaudible] >> someone just sent it to me, some calling gates and explaining to him, i have anything to say, but i'll give a call and see what happened. i'm gonna get another one from the fbi tomorrow. just some stuff to get this out. [inaudible] it's potentially illegal, what he's doing. >> well, he's putting people in jeopardy. and he doesn't need to be doing this. he knows what's people are doing in the capital. at least he became prepared. >> as you heard a bit, there, mccarthy on a republicans also took issue with congressman of alabama. he's the one who are body armor while he spoke at trump's rally and told the soon to be insurrectionists about destroying the capitol that was the day american patriot started taking down names thinking asked. as well congressman louis goldberg in texas, who invoked violence in the streets on january 1st after the judge rejected a lawsuit trying to get vice president mike pence the power to overturn the election. just a warning, this next threat is a little long, but i think this important theory this conversation unfold, asked government kathy talked with the republican congressional leaders. why did millbrook's say down at that rally? >> kicking ass and taking names thing is the one that i've seen the most from people. i didn't watch the speech. but that's a number of member said that to me. he used that term. >> he said like, we need to inspire something. wasn't he said something a couple days out -- >> it was something like that, yes. >> it was incendiary. >> i mean, you got the maxine waters, all that stuff to. i know she's been there in a very strong position right there. our members have got to start paying attention -- that type of stuff. >> brooks apparently said today, the american patriot started taking down names and kicking ass, which i was -- even a step further than the rhetorical -- >> he thinks the president is going to be impeached for his comment -- >> someone give me the intro. i'm either -- have either of them apologized for what they've done? >> i have not seen that anywhere. >> he introduced the censure and tweet out that, i'm against violence, martin luther king, -- i walked back but, sure, there's obviously a lot of comments people could circle and find to introduce things about. >> how many members spoke at that rally? >> i thought it was between eight and ten. i don't have a confirmation on that. >> we can put a list of the members that did. >> only 8 to 10? >> -- [inaudible] >> steve, what did you say? >> i've heard members talk about bringing the steering committee to strip them of committees, in the vein of steve king. i would imagine this is definitely going to come up -- >> what committees does he own? >> i'm good offense. >> -- services. >> there is an issue with alabama. barry morgan said some things today we should look at, honestly. >> why did berry say today? >> pulling it up, one second. >> okay. >> he deleted his personal twitter account, -- with the atlanta journal got a screenshot. he said about 22 hours ago, while we have more -- for stealing the podium on january 6th, for stealing an election -- atlanta, philadelphia, detroit were places i recommend you start. there is video evidence of these times. -- the election matters. and then, also made this tweet on saturday night at the u.s. capitol police officer was shot and killed a woman, as he tried to get her to the lobby. he tweeted at marjorie greene, i understand it was a black police officer that shot the white female veteran. that doesn't fit a narrative. >> oh man. >> this is what we have as a prospect. >> can they take their twitter accounts down to? >> i'm left speechless by that. so much to say about that. they know, right? the moment, at one level it's reassuring. in the moment, there is some semblance of a moral compass and instinct understand it like this is beyond the pale. but it doesn't last, right? the day after that call, less than a month after the insurrection, -- the republican lawmakers during a meeting, where he pleaded with them not to -- incite further violence. timed audio that meeting as well. >> after this call, i'm gonna get another briefing from the fbi. it doesn't matter which sign or position we were in. i respect it, i respect why you did which he did. what we are saying on television and what we say in our numbers name, when we incite, in our hearts we think we are doing it. you go back to last for years, everybody has done something. this is not the moment in time to do it. the briefings i am getting, you can incite something else. the country is very divided as we know this. let's not put any member, i don't care who they are, republican, democrat, any person not even in congress, watch our words closely. i need these reports on a weekly basis. i've seen something i haven't seen before. i'm asking all of you, i called some of you personally, and i want you to know what i'm hearing. be careful. i know you want to defend your vote and position. sometimes we get emotional about that. part of our defense is that we explain what's somebody else was at. that brings damage. do not raise another member's name on television. even if they are in a different position or not. let's respect one another. you probably won't understand what you are doing. i'm warning you right now, don't do it. don't do it in this time, unless you are prepared for the future, not to do it as well. >> republicans, obviously, have a pretty good shop at retaking the house in -- what's become the next speaker of the. house in order to do that, he needs those same members you just heard him condemn to support his bid. he spent the last year not working really to stamp out that impulse in his party, and faction, but rather to appease the worse elements of the republican party. -- mccarthy's opposed efforts to punish fellow republicans for inciting violence in recent months. republican congressman of arizona tweeted out an animated video depicting him killing democratic congresswoman, alexandra ocasio-cortez in new york. mcarthur refused to support an effort to censure him. -- any significant consequences for the response to the insurrection has been, of course, congressman liz cheney, of wyoming. she was kicked out of party leadership, censured by the rnc for speaking out against trump, investigating his role in and thus instigating the attack on the capitol. listen to this exchange between mccarthy and cheney, just a little one month after that meeting with fellow republicans, after he had decided to embrace trump once again. >> do you believe president trump should be speaking as -- as he had this weekend? >> yes a. should >> congresswoman cheney? >> that's up to cpac. i think there are rumblings about president and the extent to which -- on january 6th. i don't believe he should be playing a role in the department. >> that i know. >> cheney is now facing a primary -- none other than matt gates, the same congressman that mccarthy was worried might incite violence against his colleagues. even went down to wyoming to rally against. just weeks, after mccarthy explicitly warned his -- over their differences. in a statement today, gates called mccarthy, weak man not leaders. the january six committee says mccarthy will be invited for the second time to come speak. because the kevin mccarthy of january 21, the one who briefly understood how dangerous the rhetoric is, is gone. the kevin mccarthy of 2022 is decided that appeasing extremists, punishing those who are willing to stand up for the basics of american self representation in democracy, is the best way to secure his future as the head of the republican party. notably, mccarthy ignored questions about these recordings that, except when reporters asked him he thought it would hurt his chances of becoming speaker. he said, quote, i think correctly, nope. joining me now is congressman eric, swallow democrat of california. first, congressman, as a colleague of all of these -- january 6th of -- course your reaction to what you heard there. >> imagine how much safer america would be today if kevin mccarthy's trust with the truth head lasted longer than a couple days. he's gotten back together with the election lies and he has become exactly the person he described he didn't want his colleagues becoming on those calls, which was someone who would enable or incite violence. instead of protecting liz cheney, who stood up with integrity, kevin mccarthy is supporting liz cheney's opponent in the republican primary. when you listen to kevin mccarthy, he was absolutely right about almost everything he said privately to his members, what has changed -- to suggest he should change his position. he had put america first for a couple hours and days after january 6th. now he is putting kevin first. he realizes he needs donald trump, if he ever wants to be speaker of the house. which means for america, donald trump essentially would be speaker of the house, if kevin mccarthy were ever to get that close to the capitol. >> does it make it a worse or better that they know? there's something reassuring about listening to them correctly respond to these things. even the response to the berry more tweet, where barry more, days after this is saying, well looks like a black cop shot a white lady. they are like, oh my god. that is like, there is something reassuring words like, yes, correct, i'm not crazy, you are not crazy. people watching this i'm crazy. that is the right reaction. like, -- but then that can't be preserved in the gravitational pull of the propaganda that follows. >> chris, when i was a prosecutor and we had to prove a witnesses cognitive abilities, i had to demonstrate to a jury that they knew the difference between a truth and a lie, or the difference between right and wrong. this was often the case with a child witnesses. here, you could prove to america that kevin mccarthy knew the difference between right and wrong. he initially, his instinct, was to go the right way. when it came to weather putting america first or kevin first, he chose the wrong way. i think it should be held even more strongly against him and that the guy knew, and because his own self interest or above america's interests, he took a pledge of allegiance to himself, rather than america. that i think is the worst possible outcome, the worst possible judgment someone could make. >> matt gates, of course, this is chump for him. he loves to be -- have things to talk about, other than the fact that the department of justice appears to be investigating him for the possible crime of child sex trafficking. he is running around with a statement on twitter, saying they are weak, sniffling, denigrating all of them. what's striking to me is the power -- this is how it looks from the outside -- i'm curious if you see this another way, the power balance has shifted to that part of the faction. the -- paul gosar, is matt gates, they are the avant-garde of the republican party. they will be the avant-garde of a republican majority, should come to pass. in the midterms. >> that's right. they declare themselves what they -- are not the french -- they have said over and over, we are the base. they are the base. the question they have to ask themselves is, even if mccarthy is with you today, you have now heard what he thought about you when he was speaking privately. he has lost the trust, not of the american people, not just proven himself to be a 24 karat lose a -- liar how could he know who need a responsible republican party, what worries me is there is no backstop or insurance policy against donald trump if kevin mccarthy was ever to lead congress. if the republicans were ever to be in charge after the midterms. there is no guardrails anymore. he had a test, he started to go the right weight. he started to give the right answers. and he has utterly shown us that he would fail a future test. >> yeah, i know you know this, for viewers to point out, mccarthy himself, and scalise as well, as a person who has survived a horrific act of violence, targeted at members of congress, was shot multiple times, had to come back from rehab, there is a pathos about how dangerous this all is. those individuals also voted to overturn the election after the insurrection. there was -- they were real profiles incurred, but an interested privately what was going on. really appreciate taking some time tonight. don't go anywhere, the latest revelations from the inbox of mark meadows of the current sitting members of congress ending election conspiracy theories about satellites, british spies, the white house chief of staff. plus, great new reporting on the january six bombshell hunting in plain sight. all that, coming up. that, coming up. you're never responsible for unauthorized purchases on your discover card. trelegy for copd. ♪ birds flyin' high ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪ (coughing) ♪ breeze driftin' on by ♪ ♪ you know how i feel ♪ copd may have gotten you here, but you decide what's next. start a new day with trelegy. ♪ ...feelin' good ♪ no once-daily copd medicine has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one 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his job. there's a better way to keep san francisco safe. recall chesa boudin now. the chief of staff mark meadows continues. today, we learned about previously unreported texts from scott meadows. in the texts, which nbc news has independently verified, perry is bonkers conspiracy theory about the chinese government hiking the dominion voting machines, quote, freemantle friend, the director of national intelligence, the guy who proceeds all of the national agencies, east to ask them to say to immediately season look began looking for international communications later the dominion. and another text, barry went on to claim, trump cheri director gina how slow, was working with the british government to steal the election. quote, and gina still running around on the hill covering for the brits who helped quarterback this entire operation. very also reportedly texted metals a link to youtube video about the italian satellites changing the results of the election, which is my personal favorite conspiracy theory among the many that were floating around. and while the snow revelations are shocking, as my next guests argues, the next module's right front of us. i'll genie is a senior political reporter, who focuses into the issues and generous. six recently wrote an article, hiding in plain sight. thanks for joining, i thought your piece was a good good job of taking back and look at things, because we correlations there by day. but as you noted in the piece, a tremendous unknown has been assembled. >> exactly, and that is my point with the piece. there's a lot of expectations when the committee released its findings, it must be some new smoking gun. some new shoe that's gonna drop that's gonna blow everyone's mind when, in reality, the slow buildup of what we've learned over the last 15 months has really been that bombshell. it's been remarkable how much we've learned about what's the then sitting president was doing, sort of using the tools of the government to overturn the election. what happened when he was told by his own doj, the his own white house counsel, and really, but we've amassed already is sort of the shocking revelation that we've been theory been waiting for. >> yeah, and one thing we've seen in these texts is, and again, i'm not in a position to judge whether people are passing along these texts because is advantageous to, because they want ingratiate themselves the powerful person like mark meadows. or if they believe it. i'm inclined to think that in a lot of cases, it's the latter. it is just like a widespread infection of nonsense in the range of some of the most powerful people on planet earth. these are members of congress. these are people who are at the highest levels of the most powerful nation on earth. who are saying that and italian satellite, maybe was that telling satellites, or maybe it was the ghost of ngola javits. but, the judgment. the inability to distinguish truth from fiction. fact from fantasy is really deeply concerning out a deep level. as exhibited and so much of this evidence. >> i think you're right, i think for the most part, a lot of these are fairly smart people who know better. there is some sense of ingratiating themselves. that is why the president wants to hear. and we are seeing is, just how much of the guardrails just completely broke down around the white house. and i think it about closer to closer the january six where information that any good gatekeeper would keep oval office would be welcomed uninvited in and amplified to the president who wanted to hear them. and when people started filling him as if he didn't want to hear, he'll get rid of them. he's sidelined him and bring people like john eastman who said, yes, that legal theories could. it may make but mike pence overturn the election. or seizing the voting machines, that's a good strategy. and then you push out the people that told you the responsible thing. >> you're right, this i think a release of the sound we heard. and i think it's a big part of what the goal of the january six committee is. is the goal reporting a storytelling that we've done on the show. the goals aren't necessarily about installing new details, although certainly would be some. it's about reminding americans how close american democracy came to the brink based on already -- what's already been revealed. and that a real kind of censuses narrative ahead of them, more than excavation challenge. they appear to excavated the law. >> they have an enormous amount of information. hundreds on hundreds of transcripts, and it is going to be difficult. their challenges for something that the people in a way that they can understand and can grapple with. and get a feel. if the committee wants people to feel what they felt on january 7th. when they woke up -- when kevin mccarthy was even feeling like, wow, we came really close to losing the country, here the republic. he wants everyone to remember that feeling. sorry, the committee also remember that feeling and respond to it the way that they did at that time. >> kyle cheney, reporter from political, thank you so very much, appreciate it. >> coming, up if you think the number of republicans texting mark meadows about stealing the election for donald trump was concerning, just wait until you get a look at republic and it's waiting in the wings. the trumpers on the debate stage, after this. bate agste, after this. new poligrip power hold and seal. clinically proven to give strongest hold, plus seals out 5x more food particles. fear no food. new poligrip power hold and seal. the sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now. it senses your movements and automatically adjusts so you both stay comfortable all night. it's also temperature balancing so you stay cool. save $500 on the sleep number 360 c4 smart bed, queen now only $1,299. lowest price ever! only for a limited time. >> tech: when you have auto glass damage, trust safelite. this dad and daughter were 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>> let's not i'm saying. what i'm saying is, we got information, some from one of your friends the senate to us, why should there's something about it. and we send it to the secretary of state. >> and what's been done about that? >> and they are just relitigating the 2020 election in georgia. pennsylvania, republican senator candidates won out of the way to tie themselves with trump, with doctor oz leading the way. >> i discussed with president trump that we cannot move on. we have to be serious about what happened in 2020, and we won't be able to address that after put on the. president trump endorsed, me and in the first point you made about why i'm a conservative american, first republican, he said i'm pro-life. and i am pro-life. >> former president trump endorsed you. he coined the phrase america first and 60 seconds. how do you define exactly? >> one word, respect. would president trump did's was respect people who were canceled. >> in michigan, trump's chosen candidate, use that to tout again the big lie lawsuit that he filed for trump in 2020. >> i set up for america, i set up for america first values. i set up for donald trump or no one else would. i went out, i set my look earlier aside, i stood up for every one of you when i filed a lawsuit in actual candy. tom leonard when up to mike in all this, year and you set up, there and he said, i haven't seen any evidence of election fraud. let me tell you people, 70% of republicans in the state know that this last election was garbage. >> that lawyer, matthew deperno, and then up winning the republican nomination for state attorney general. that sets the stage for him to actually be, possibly a few ones, one of the most powerful statewide officeholders in that vital swing state. g state. g state. ♪ things are getting clearer ♪ ♪ yeah, i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my skin ♪ ♪ yeah, that's all me ♪ ♪ nothing and me go hand in hand ♪ ♪ nothing on my skin, that's my new plan ♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ keep your skin clearer with skyrizi. most who achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months had lasting clearance through 1 year. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin at 3 years. and skyrizi is 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. ♪ it's my moment ♪ ♪ so i just gotta say ♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs, or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪ nothing is everything ♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. do your eyes bother you? 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(all): hail, caesar! pssst caesar! julius! dude, you should really check in with your team on ringcentral. i was thinking like... oh hi, caesar. we were just talking about you. ha ha ha. yeah, you should probably get out of here. not good. ♪ ♪ ♪ ringcentral ♪ derriere discomfort. we try to soothe it with this. ♪ ♪ cool it with this. and relieve it with this. but new preparation h soothing relief spray is the 21st century way to do all three. even touch free. preparation h. get comfortable with it. as someone with hearing loss i know what a confusing and frustrating experience getting hearing aids can be. that's why i founded lively. affordable, high-quality hearing aids with all of the features you need, and none of the hassle. i use lively hearing aids and it's been wonderful. it's so light and so small but it's a fraction of the cost of the other devices. they cost thousands less. it's insanely user friendly. you take the hearing test online, the doctor programs in the settings. you don't even need to go into an office. they're delivered to your door in a few days and you're up and running in no time. it connects via bluetooth to my phone. you can stream music and you can answer phone calls. the audiologist was so incredible she's full of all kinds of little helpful hints i love it. they're a game changer for me. i feel like i can take on anything. it feels great to be in control of my hearing. better hearing has never been this easy. the most consistent tone of try lively risk-free for 100 days. visit listenlively.com trump era conservativism as whining. donald trump is the biggest winner. the biggest weiner of ever encountered and life. that's what he does, all the, does moan, complain, about his media converge. entire right-wing universe around hamas taken up the same tone. just constantly whining, when jing, about all upfront and the indignities the day, in some cases, the really the wealthiest most powerful people in the world, have endured. and that's the reason why they're extremely excited about the news that you have seen, that the richest man, elon musk, has reached a deal to buy twitter. >> a good news show, don't get those too often. elon musk bought twitter today. >> twitter, it's an elon musk's hands, can you believe it? >> must spread just to raise the single biggest political developments since don trump's election into thousand 16. >> cal, this one is a victory for a free speech. >> he's gonna take a private, signaling a return, hopefully, to free speech principles. >> and you may infect save the town square. >> okay, let's put aside the coated meaning of free speech, we can get to that later. but, it's a little weird how psyched they all are. like, calm down guys. it's cool. rich guy but a social media platform. you can sense the palpable feeling of excitement in those moments of celebration. and it might seem weird, but understand that joy about doesn't vigil billionaire by your social media company, you have to understand how this strange, very windy worldview has come to dominate the right-wing. in that world, people on the rights are now classifying every institution in american life as either, our team, or their team. as if there's like a ledger. and the essence of modern maga era conservatism is mourning the fact that, and they're mine, every institution in american life has moved from our team, their team. >> yet another big american company going woke. disney. >> the world of disney exposed. >> nearly leaked videos show how work disney is gone. >> then it follows become totally limp. >> look, the nfl is just going further and further woke. >> f the nfl. they're exploited of. they're anti-american. there are 1000 percent woke. >> the pentagon is on the yale faculty lounge, both cruise missiles. >> unfortunately, story after story of walkman. on >> the pentagon is under the spell of corporate america, and contrary to what austin said in that hearing, it's gone totally woke. >> i, mean look at these millionaires with the most plumbers job that you would get, which is talking on television for a living. i got, it right. whining about, oh my god, everyone is against us. and if you asked me to choose institutions, i would never describe as liberal or woke, i don't know, that's all three might be, disney then a fall, and the pentagon! but the constant message coming from right-wing media, certainly fox news, is that everything's been taken away from you. every institution is no longer yours. it's all being run by the lips who have colonized your mind and your culture. now, if you view the world that way, one way to deal with that is through creating your own culture. you might even call it counterculture, right? when you feel alienated from the mainstream. in my youth, a lot of leftist's felt that way about the establishment media. 9/11 era, iraq war. but while there are notable successes on the right for creating counterculture, when they have tried to build their own institutions, they have tended to flame out in spectacular fashion. here's an example, nowhere is this more true than the great promised alternative to twitter, called truth social. you may remember last october, don trump announced he is creating a new platform called -- quote, to stand up on the tear in your big tech. after they get them out of the social media after fomenting a violent coup. and because he's a business genius, he tapped a former a dairy farmer with tech experience, republican congressman kevin nunes, who quit's job to return truth social to what it is today, an unmitigated disaster. as a terrible rollout with users unable to join and posters truths, which is what they're calling the version of tweets, trump himself has not even formally join the platform, although he says he will begin posting over the next week. i will not be going back to twitter, even if elon musk allows him. but of course, that's the part of the police trying to sow, right? here's the thing, ultimately, there is an inherent tension between the cultural environments in the world view that produces broadly successful popular institutions, and he just, pathological grievance politics of the hard right faction of the public party. and, so that's why they're so psyched. that's why they celebrate the elon musk righteous of twitter as this hostile takeover by one of their own. it's their dream for the right kind of billionaire to pull off a hostile takeover in the institution of american culture, and iran should back, right, when they believe is taken from them. one of their institutions going back to our corner. because they think musk is one of them. like the pillow guy. and you allow freedom for all sorts of whatever people on a post to come back to twitter. but if he doesn't, they will turn on him too. will they declare elon musk to walk like the pentagon is? at the heart of all, this is the fact that they are cataclysm of victimization has gone so long, so baroque, so impossible-in-one brain, their sense of grievance so extreme and ever expanding they have managed to push themselves further and further from the center of american life, while at the same time decrying their own marginalization and distance from it. that is the perpetual grievance machine of right wing politics. and our ending supply things to be angry, and whine about. which makes some people a lot of money. as long as their audience never gets wise. e neve gets wise. gets wise. school sweetheart for 35 years. i'm a mother of four-- always busy. i was starting to feel a little foggy. just didn't feel like things were as sharp as i knew they once were. i heard about prevagen and then i started taking it about two years now. started noticing things a little sharper, a little clearer. i feel like it's kept me on my game. i'm able to remember things. i'd say give it a try. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. the lows of bipolar depression can leave you down and in the dark. but what if you could begin to see the signs of hope all around you? 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(music throughout) the obsession with counsel culture epitomized by donald trump launching arizona dumped into social media company after he was thrift off twitter is the perfect encapsulation of what's been happening as the right move to further and further away from mainstream american life. you ended up outside feeling prosecuted, then turns around, pointed the finger this addition for being the problem, even though you are the ones who were treated for the course share values that could bind the country together. james phobias the essayist, charles loews's opinion columnist for the new york times, they both join me now. james, honest with you, you are great piece for vanity fair. jan all of the defunds, and some other folks in the somewhat in covid world. but the grievance and the suns that americans -- america's pillar institutions across the bar swab were sort of an enemy hands. and had to be wrenched back through a sort of takeover. j.d. vance basically says that. it's like one of the animating forces and that world right now. >> well, so, i think an easy way to understand a very difficult to understand world would be to say that people on this kind of new right epitomized a little bit by people like j.d. vance tend to view the institutions of this establishment as being, sort of, having core interests that are opposed to regular people. you know, that j.d. vance is the middletown ohio kind of, real economy factory worker type people. they view the institutions in america is controlled by a media political academic lost that has a great interest in globalization. an open borders. the sort of storms that get thrown around. and they view this media and culture as sort of attacking them for the reasons of preserving the interests of that economic establishment. >> right, but i think, there's a weird and version of a loves argument there jeff under that gusting. and you see that in the terminology journals. you see rhonda santas really on the program media, and you're like, bro, you're their governor of florida. you're pursuing the chamber of commerce's interest and everything that you're doing. there's a certain anti-corporate cosplay that is a big part of this. but also eugene this weird position where, you think the pentagon and nfl are out to get you as well. >> well, i think, chris, we're in the middle of a massive backlash against things like the protest after george floyd, which i think shocked conservative america because it was a lot of white kids. your polling data about who was in the streets, the number of white people dwarfs the number of black people who are in those protests. and i think that was shocking. i think taking down those monuments was shocking because of an assault, and their minds, on white power, and the white power narrative. i think that corporations and institutions stepping into, say we are going to examine and maybe take some action, didn't all take the action that they pledged. but they said that they would, and that all was shocking because in previous backlashes, where there was reconstruction or there's an invasion of schools on the civil rights movements, and institutions were always on their side. it was the churches that helped uphold jim crow. it was institutions like the media that helped to uphold those movements against people who are minorities. in this instance, those institutions are not playing ball in the same way. and yes, and that circumstance, of course, they feel betrayed. because, if every other way of oppression, these institutions are on their side. >> there's also the sort of cultural factor which i think emerges in your piece, james. j.d. vance has this line in your piece saying, the first thing i told trump's fire although bureaucrats on all the mid level servants. and, that's by the, way and incredibly or, that's 100-year-old right-wing trope. so there's nothing particularly knew about that. they've been reeling against bureaucrats as long as there's been a coherent version of the american right. but, also the thought, is we're gonna replace them with? i saw a bunch of bureau today saying, fire all the work employees at twitter. and they're like, okay, you guys go staff twitter. produced people -- like, there is a reason the cultural you that is producing that employees at twitter in the civil servants that work in the epa's like, not super simpatico with the maga ethos. and there's a failure to reckon with, that i think. >> yeah, i mean, the short answer announcer that on the lot of people in the piece that i wrote was, that there's a certain number of people in the side of things that actually do just want a dictator. the more complicated and perhaps more interesting and no actual coloration is forming that, is not a lot of them really meyer people like roosevelt. and a lot of them actually, our as you said, before taking ideas from the left. which is, as a leftist, it's someone disillusioning to see sometimes. and they're describing things, you know, and storms of how they used to say manufacturing consent. and how bernie supporters are getting shoved out of the mainstream, and called extreme. even though they were very popular. and so, the thing that i think people might want to take away from is that a lot of right-wing people have come up with the answer for why america has difficulty governing. and they say that, our sort, of so called, state capacity has been degraded by this administrative state. by this bureaucracy, right? and if you clear at all, you have, you know, what they would call a constitutional revolution. that may be a dictator, maybe roosevelt, but they're looking for more authority, more centralized authority. as an argument that this is the only way we can get stuff done. >> yeah, and there's this weird thing where, it's like, being thirsty for the power of these cultural centers that they don't have, which is, charles, when you see in the weird yuan most celebration. >> absolutely. and i think, they are perfectly okay with government as long as they control it. the trick was, when this election, and particular, turns on a lot of minority voters and the right states handing the election over to joe biden not donald trump. and will people think now is like, we see this massive waste of expression. there's always waves of voter suppression the lead into the 2016 election. that was the first election 50 years where we didn't have full voting rights act. it was a massive wave. when they realize, however is that it wasn't enough. so they went back to the drawing board, and he became even more vicious in the way that they wanted to suppress peoples votes. the problem is not institutions, and it's all big governments is, the promise who do they believe is controlling government, and whether or not the people who they want to control it are in control of the government in the united states. >> james polk, and charles blow, thank