and more text messages. revealing messages by members of congress to overturn the 2020 election. are we going to talk about it? >> yes. >> good morning, everybody. it is april 18th, tax day. yay. we have richard haass and host of "way too early" jonathan lemire and clint watts standing by at the big boards. a lot to get to this morning. >> a lot to get to. here is a great shot of the cover of the "wall street journal." holy week, holy week in ukraine and across the world and our service yesterday. it is interesting how much ukraine had an impact. went to the red sox on friday for the opening game. a moment of silence for ukraine. they had somebody who had just escaped ukraine come out for opening ceremony, and the fans cheered. i mean it is remarkable how this country has taken center stage in the hearts and minds of not only people in america but across europe, across the west. our pastor yesterday, obviously easter sunday, for christians the most holy of days. talked a good bit about the trials and tribulations of christ on friday leading to rebirth and resurrection on sunday, and talked about ukraine and talked about the nails, the rusty nails being driven into the people of ukraine. a year ago, who would have known about ukraine? would would have had a second thought about ukraine? but how extraordinary -- >> and who the ukrainian people are, what they're made of. >> who the ukrainian people are. also passover this weekend, richard. >> the parallels extraordinary. pharaoh and putin. the plagues and sanctions. this year, you know, you talk about israelites, this year it was about ukrainians. >> yes. >> and the parallels of history to today. there was immediacy. hee you are talking about events of over 3,000 years ago and somehow it sounded incredibly real and immediate. >> and the pope also talked about ukraine during easter mass. >> and that is the thing. we read, you know, these holy stories, which i don't think are parables. i believe. i believe because i believe. if that offends you, well, that's fine. you can believe what you believe. but you see what happens, you see what is happening in ukraine. even winston churchill, you know, at times in the past, you know, i've gone to sleep at night listening to those speeches of churchill from 1940. it seems so distant. it seems to improbable that you think it is almost like, you know, a middle age legend, you know. like from the round table. but it is true. you know, jonathan, we can draw parallels as well. >> how? >> let's look at the american east league standing. >> no. i think he had something nice to say. i could tell by his face. >> your boston red sox now ahead of the yankees. >> come on. >> no one have ever believed that, nobody. this is one of the great sporting achievements. >> jonathan lemire. >> i could talk about secretariat. i could talk about the bombs in '55. this is about as good as it gets, isn't it? >> talk about rising from the dead, joe. >> it was going so well. >> this is nice. as we just mentioned at the end of "way too early" it is one of the best years of the day, patriots' day, 11:05 the start of the boston red sox's official start of the day. to your point of ukraine, it is remarkable you could walk the streets of major u.s. cities and ukrainian flags are hung somewhere. >> i have seen it all over d.c.. >> there are two small kids in my second grader's class who have come over now, and the way they've been welcomed with open arms. certainly the churchillian figures, as russians and ukrainians are fighting. >> this weekend up in new canaan where i heard chapin gardner delivered a sermon up there, a congregational church. do you have a picture? spring, it may have been 35 degrees. >> with hail yesterday. >> with hail. i will tell you, at least in new canaan when you go past irwin park and the flowers start to bloom, that's when it is spring. >> that's when you know. >> with kyree flips off the fan, that's when you know it is spring in brooklyn. this guy is all class. >> this was -- the back story, kyrie irving spent a couple of years there. he has become public enemy number one in boston, at least for nba fans. he was great yesterday and it was a classic game, but he was booed every time he touched the ball. that's how sports work. but he repeatedly flipped off the fans during the game. he delivered a foul-mouthed press conference afterwards. >> what? >> and he was burned on the final lay-up for the celtics. you played as much -- you have to remember he missed part of the season because he refused to get vaccinated. >> and spring has sprung and, again, the first sign of spring. >> kyrie's middle finger. >> you forget jordan spieth. >> we have to show you what mika did at the beginning of the holy weekend. she does this. she goes to baseball games and she carries around babies. >> that was a great baseball game. >> that's jack's baseball game, middle school. >> i did not steal that baby. that baby is billy a's. >> she steals babies with fans and notice how she walks around with them like footballs. that's how she does it. >> it is silly. >> she has one hand free. >> the quarterback could learn from her. >> it is a good way to hold a baby. you can do other things and they like it. >> if you look at the baby's face closely, this baby did not like it. >> they're fine. they're comfortable. that's the weekend news. >> let's get to the news. the bottom line of the news is everything is going badly for putin. you have now people on russian television. >> yes. >> starting to ask questions, like what the -- like how did they sink our flagship? what is going on? now talking about wanting war with the west, it is really -- and all putin can do is strike out at innocent people, commit war crimes. >> you just have to wonder where this is going to go. russian forces continue their offense itch in eastern ukraine, stepping up attacks on the country's second largest city, kharkiv. at least five people killed, 20 others injured when a barrage of russian rockets hit the city center yesterday, setting fire to several apartment buildings and a market. a day earlier russian missiles hit a community kitchen that was run by chef jose andres and was being used to feed refugees. four of his staff members were injured in that attack. in his nightly address, president volodymyr zelenskyy called the bombing of kharkiv, quote, nothing but deliberate terror. he also said at least 18 people have been killed and over 100 injured by russian's shelling of the city in the past four days. >> richard, obviously we are looking at this relief work and people getting hit by these missiles, but of right now the russians just have dumb bombs, right? did that just happen to hit a relief center or do you think that they deliberately targeted? >> i think this is the strategy. >> no, no, i mean -- >> i mean for the relief efforts. >> going all out. >> it is the strategy. it is not indiss criminality. it is not accidental. this is purposeful. it is intentional. it has been to go against ukrainian civilians, ukrainian cities. the entire strategy is less designed to go after the ukrainian military in much of the country than it is to break the spirit of the ukrainian civilians and those helping them. >> we heard about it in syria how russia would deliberately target hospitals, it was hard to believe. you say, no country would ever do that. that's what they do. >> that's what they do. >> the fight for the besieged city of mariupol continues as ukrainian forces rejected an offer to surrender. moscow can given ukrainian fighters until yesterday morning to lay down arms or, quote, be eliminated. over 2,000 ukrainian soldiers are holed up in a steel plant in the city, and officials say they have vowed not to surrender. >> the city still has not fallen. there is still our military forces, our soldiers. so they will fight till the end. and as for now, they still are in mariupol. >> the city's police chief said million civilians including children are also sheltering at the steel plant, which stretches for more than four square miles. the plant is the last line of defense preventing russian forces from taking over the crucial seaside port. the fall of mariupol would be a significant victory for russia as it would allow the kremlin to establish a land corridor from the east to crimea, which it invaded and has controlled since 2014. local officials say over 100,000 civilians remain trapped in the city and face a humanitarian crisis with severe food shortages, of food, water and medicine. >> jonathan, actually you have that. you have the russians, of course, focusing on indiscriminate attacks in lviv. you have the russians focusing on indiscriminate attacks in kyiv. again, no military strategy, just to terrorize people there because they're angry because the war on the ground is not going like they expected. >> and they're angry that their warship was sunk. russian officials do believe they are deliberately hitting civilians, relief efforts. as much as they're focusing on donbas, they're still lobbing missiles. mariupol, it cannot be overstated the bravery and resistance of the ukrainian fighters there. the russians thought they would have mariupol in a matter of days. we are two months into this. yes, u.s. officials do believe it is probably on the verge of falling, although we shouldn't underestimate ukrainians ever again. even if it were to fall as terrible as it would be, it has taken so much russian energy and effort and resources there they couldn't use anywhere else. >> yes. >> that's such an act of heroism. >> it is unbelievable what the ukrainians -- the damage they're inflicting. by the way, another russian general, another russian general has been killed fighting in ukraine. >> the governor of st. petersburg confirmed the death but did not say when or where it happened. the general, who was buried over the weekend, was commanding russian troops near mariupol. the ukrainian forces have now reportedly killed at least eight russian generals since the war began nearly two months ago. >> let's go to the board to clint water. what do we have to talk about? >> i'm going to start in the south because we were talking about mariupol. mariupol here. this is the land bridge we talked about, mika just talked about. this is what they sought to establish and they essentially will get to over the next one, two or three days. that steel factory is remarkable though because it is the last place in urban combat you would ever want to assault. you can imagine just a number of forces in there. they've been holed up for a long time. it is really can they keep food, water, basic sustenance going. that's literally tying up all of russia's combat power at this point because they would like to deploy these to the north to donbas. kherson was one of the first places that the russians took at the start of the war, you see the ukrainian push back in blue. this is a stalled campaign for the russians, and i think there's a question how much more energy russia puts into this. across the board, everything that is happening is happening in the east and that's what you will see in terms of a buildup. izyum is where you are seeing the russians stack combat power in this corridor. these are the forces from up north shifted around down here to izyum. this fighting is not going well for the russians. small, incremental. if we zoom in you will see the battle that will take place over the coming weeks. on one side you will have the russians trying to move in here from izyum. they're trying to build combat power in this location. separately from luhansk they're trying to move over. their goal essentially is to seal off different portions here and here, such that they trap pockets of the ukrainian military. if they can trap them, they will essentially cut them off from resupply, similar to what they're doing in mariupol. what i would note when you look at what is going on the ukrainians they are putting up a stiff fight inis yum. sloviansk will be a place to watch as the battle plays out. it is key because it allows the ukrainians to defend along this access and here from donetsk. it is a race, can the russians resupply quicker on this axis or can the ukrainians resupply quicker in terms of the defense. when you zoom out and look at the east, it is going to a battle -- this is not going to kick off for another month or so. remember, it is warming there. there's mud. that means russian armor is tied down to roads. this is going to be a very slow battle. i think what we want to watch is how quickly can ukrainian military can take all of the new weaponry they're getting in, push it to this front and can they hold off another armored advance on another set of cities in the east. >> the question is obviously mariupol is so important, there's such significance to that, clint, i'm curious. are the ukrainians unable to send reinforcements? are they unable to figure out a way to get supplies in to those that are trapped inside that steel facility? >> yeah. joe, right now from the perspective in the south -- let me see if i can zoom out. when you look at what the russians will be able to do with the land bridge in early days was to move around and capture this entire section. this essentially cut them off from the sea. mariupol, one of the things about it was that you could resupply from the sea, one of the other places. secondly, the russians have taken over this entire rail line leaving the pockets here surrounded on all three sides and basically pinned to the walter. >> clint, stay with us, if you will. i would love to have you on the show with us as we bring in national security and intelligence reporter for foreign policy, amy mckinnon. her latest reporting is titled "the west finally starts rolling out the big guns for ukraine." >> amy, looking at your extensive reporting here, a couple of the things you point out here is that the deliveries going into the ukraine right now reflect a shift from defensive systems like anti-tank rockets to more offensive, and checking off boxes the ukrainians have been asking for. one senior u.s. defense official speaking on condition of anonymity says that plans are under way for ukrainian trainers to travel into nato countries in eastern europe to be trained on how to use these new systems such as the howitzer and counterbattery radar. is a strategy falling into place? is it to wear out the russians, just keep sending in things as they come as needed so the russians can never get hold in there? >> i think that's certainly the goal. i mean what we have seen in recent weeks from ukraine's allies in the west and from the united states is a real ramping up in the types of military aid that they have been willing to consider and willing to give to ukraine. in the past there was a hesitancy about giving offensive weaponry, heavy weaponry in case it would be seen as provocative by moscow. we are beginning to see a change in western hearts with such as armory. however, speaking to former ukrainian officials and what we're hearing from ukrainian president zelenskyy is they fear this aid, whilst they are very grateful for it, is not coming fast enough for the coming battle in the donbas, which is expected to be very decisive. i spoke to one former ukrainian defense official who likened the current supply of weapons going into the country as trying to put out a raging fire with a glass of water at a time instead of a bucket. really what we're seeing is a race against time. ukraine is very dependent on western armaments for the coming battle. they are facing a heavily armed aggressor in russia. it will be a matter of whether or not the political machinations about how much aid they're willing to give when, it will be a race of time and arming ukraine for the coming offensive in the donbas. >> richard, this war going on six, seven weeks, there are different phases already. i know it is in vogue for some people to fault western leaders. sometimes you will hear it on other cable channels but there's been one phase after another. it does seem we're moving into a new phase right now where there's a realization, ha, not only could we help the europeans not lose this war, there's the possibility of driving the russians back into their country about. so talk about how the new phase plays out following on what amy said, moving to more offensive-minded weapons. >> the new phase will be large battles in the east. the fact that russians are willing to send missile attacks against lviv is a reminder. the russians are still going to make it difficult for ukraine to reconstitute itself as an economy, as a society. we're undergoing a transition for the new phase which is to provide ukrainians with western armaments. that will take a bit of time, but the phase of largely depending on russian armaments and arms is over. >> we had supplies of old russian weapons but we've run out of those supplies for the most part, so now obviously the fight will be going for a while so we have time to train them on our patriot missiles. >> as you say, other types of systems but also to give the ukrainians a degree of offensive fire power. what we're heading towards is what will be the large, classic battle of this war and so much will flow from this, so much will follow. this will set the stage. this will set the context not just for things militarily to come but diplomatically. it will create a backdrop to all else. >> we have seen some ukrainian forces taking the fight to the russians. they're starting the war in the donbas. they believe it is a war programs they can win. amy, talk about new phase to this conflict and russia's acts of terrorism. one of president zelenskyy's new ask from president biden is the united states to recognize russia as a state sponsor of terrorism. right now only four countries have the designation, they are cuba, iran, north korea and syria. that's a rough crew. tell us what that would mean if that were to happen. what are the implications fofrp russia? >> there are pretty profound implications for russia if it were to be designated a state sponsor of terrorism. right now i think going back to our previous conversation, i think the focus of u.s. officials right now is not so much on this designation but it is in helping to support ukraine with armaments and also with intelligence. there was reporting last week in the swamp street journal that the u.s. is beginning to share more intelligence with krurks to ukraine. it will be a difficult battle in the donbas. the forces of russia are battled and bruised from the battles around kyiv, and whether they're able to piece together a fighting force. in many ways the ukrainian and russian armed forces kind of mirror each other in terms of their capabilities. the ukrainians have very brave fighters who have experience of fighting in the donbas in the past several years of war, but they're short on armaments. the russians on the other hand are very well armed, but what they're struggling with is troop losses. nato estimates they're estimated to have at least 40,000 troops taken off the battlefield, either being killed, injured, captured or gone missing. the russian struggle will be piecing together the force for the battle in donbas. >> thank you, amy, for sharing with us. we appreciate it. clint, how does what amy as told us change the look of the battlefield? >> a couple of things, joe. it is one thing to give people weapons, another thing to carry out an offensive operation. that's the big challenge, particularly for the ukrainians. it is important to remember in this donbas area this is a battle that's been raging on for many years, so there are ukrainian military forces there. i think it was talked about and it was in the neighborhood of 40,000 forces with many dug in. in part of this area you will see actual trench lines, just old world war i trench lines dug into the locations, which leads to the russians try to essentially flank around these spots. to do that the russians have to go on the offense. they will have to use their armor. in a lot of locations in the east they're stuck to roads. what they'll try to do, and i will try to zoom back out and draw here, envelope each of these areas, seal them off, cult them off, bring them this way so they're sealing packets of the ukrainian military off and starving them to death. the problem for the russian forces, in terms of reconstituting, in and around izyum they're not up to the fight. you are talking about forces redeployed from other locations. thrown into other units. maybe the commanders were just killed. told to advance not in great conditions and against a ukrainian military that has the euphoria of essentially pushing from kyiv over to here. i think the last important point is, yes, these weapons great for the ukrainian military. a drop in the bucket. one of the numbers was eight howitzers, that's essentially a battery of them. that's not going to be decisive here. the stingers, some of the weapons over time, these are defensive wep offs like richard haass is talking about. they're not things you will take on the offense. it comes down to how innovative and smart can they be. if they can wear the forces down, cause them to pause, if they can do more rear area attacks like they did with the helicopters in belgrade, it would slow down the momentum and kill troop morale across the board. i think the last thing that is a big unknow, what do they know. a lot of those feel that the generals going back and being buried, you have ships in the black sea that have gone down, you are talking about hundreds of people being dead. that is trickling back into russia. you can't disinfo your way out forever. this will get back to the russian people and there will be questions when you see people come back home wounded in combat, it is going to raise questions. it is a part morale and about the ukrainian military being able to be mobile and strike at key logistic areas. >> thank you, clint watts, at the board. the reality of that, we heard it took years to have an impact on afghanistan before russian mothers started to speak out. i guess what? i mean the russians have lost as many soldiers possibly in weeks as they lost in entire years during the afghanistan open. i think clint is right, you are starting to hear people complain on russian state television about ships going down. they're now declaring it a war. they're now starting to get angry talks about the losses and how badly the russian troops are doing. i think saying that vladimir putin has nothing to worry about at home, those days are over. that's the next fales of this war. they know they're using to ukrainians. >> i think it cuts both ways, exactly the way you are suggesting. it is a weakness, a liability for putin, consistent with russian history. but also you will try to see him reframe this. this is not some special military operation. this is a war of russia against the west. he is going to try to frame this, almost in the tradition, joe, of russia against the ward. this is rush is victim. this is mother russia. you will see putin saying we're fighting for russia, appeal to patriotism. instead of hiding the numbers, he's going to put them out there. the west is throwing everything at us, we have to rally together. i think the russians are undergoing a big political decision. they're going to try to turn a liability into a rallying cry. >> his problem is that he will keep losing because as more western weapons go into ukraine, the more losses for russia. he's a guy that has to look for his off ramp. if you look at what is happening in russia, again, as richard said they're talking about a war against the ukrainian, american neo-nazis. it is a great talking point. it is not going to help your foldiers do any better on the casualty. >> there's no accounting of how many sailors went down on the warship and american sources believe it is significant. russia has not said at all how many were lost. there's a date to watch, may 9th, the celebration of the soviet union victory in word war ii. >> he better get a win soon or else he will be like kyrie. >> flipping people off? >> flipping off the west. >> oh, my word. >> that's all he can do because he can't win. >> we were doing so well. we have a packed show ahead. former ukrainian president petro poroshenko will be our guest amid growing concerns russia may begin a new offensive soon. we will talk to retired general stephen twitter about the aid package the u.s. is sending to ukraine. also ahead, we will dig into bombshell text messages that will show how two gop lawmakers lobbied donald trump's chief of staff. >> what they're doing is sedition. they're talking about overturning -- look at those faces. i have been friends one one of them. >> one claims to be a constitutionalist. >> you can't be a constitutionallist and try to overturn an election. what has happened to these people? also ahead, the arch look at the covid-19 lockdowns around shanghai are having wider operations around the world. >> is there something xi can do right? if there is, let us know it. it has been five years and one screw up after another. >> we will talk to richard haass about this and how it affects global supply chain. you're watching- "morning joe"." good luck. hashtag challenge. and everyone on social media is trying me. i'm trending so hard that “hashtag common sense” can't keep up. this is going to get tens and tens of views. ♪ ♪ ( car crashing ) ♪ ♪ but if you don't have the right auto insurance coverage, you could be left to pay for this... yourself. call a local agent or 1-888-allstate for a quote today. ♪ ♪ when you order the all new deluxe three cheese and bacon omelette, you get a smile on your plate. only from ihop. join the rewards program and earn double pancoins with any 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now, we're working to bring you the next generation of wifi. it's ultra-fast. faster than a gig. supersonic wifi. only from xfinity. it can power hundreds of devices with three times the bandwidth. so your growing wifi needs will be met. supersonic wifi only from us... xfinity. some people are saying i'm not healthy, okay. i'm in very good health. i do wonderful with healthy. healthy as a horse. i see biscuit and i eat biscuit. frankly we're doing great things with biscuit and bun and bread. you know, we're doing crazy bed. lil cesar's. i have known lil cesar for a long time. i told him to say pizza pizza. he used to say it once and i said we should be saying it twice, we should say it twice. >> okay. i'm actually just going to watch away. you win, you can have it. >> you know what, i would love to be bunny. i would be so good with bunny because i told america covid would be over by easter, i just didn't say which one, okay. say it with me, everyone. happy easter. >> it's saturday night! >> he is so good. >> wow, he has it. like the whole mindset, train of thought, distracted, and also the big -- many big lies but one about covid being done by easter, which everyone knew was not true. >> james austin johnson tells me, which is the actor, he has the best trump going. it is the mannerisms, he is terrific. pizza, pizza. it was so good. >> i know lil caesar. >> that's as good as it gets. >> front page of "the new york times," the mar-a-lago. >> oh, my gosh. >> trump as a modern-day party boss, which is an interesting piece. >> oh, my gosh. >> that he sort of has his little evening get-togethers there and people fight for his attention. >> so there is a microphone and a podium that is set up at all times at mar-a-lago. >> how great. >> just in case he wants to address the crowd, which he does more nights has not. >> deejays sometimes, other nights -- you know, if you are looking at your lower thirds and if you wonder what like crabness a bucket, it is a line out of a story where one of trump's aides says people will go there and just beg. people will go there and try to get his support and his endorsement. it is everywhere as pathetic where people were like crabs in a bucket, wanting him to pick them uhm. there was a scene where he flew down all of the senate candidates in ohio. put him in a room while he was there and just let them fight and scream, yell at each other so he would give them the endorsement. of course, the one thing that's missing is -- >> ron desantis? >> no. i mean ron is probably going to make him go to tallahassee if they're going to meet. but the one thing that is missing is that trump doesn't give a lot of money. he is throwing some into georgia but usually it is an e-mail, a $5,000 check and he raises the millions and millions of dollars for himself. >> this is a dynamic that started soon after he left office despite some speculation he would be on the out of the republican party and that's not the case. his grip has tightened. people come to kiss the ring at mar-a-lago. he has more money on hand than the rnc right now. he has raised money, people believe he is keeping it for the 2024 campaign. his word in the republican primary in republican states has been extremely important. he just doled out endorsements, including to dr. oz, but there's no question that the power center of the republican party is in palm beach, florida, mar-a-lago. >> -- the governor's mansion -- >> the reality that still exists is that if donald trump can help you win a republican primary and help you lose a general election, especially in statewide races, his name -- and this story talks about it. we have seen after youngkin won, we have even time and time again people that voted for biden and youngkin upset to with biden, but you ask them, do you regret your vote for joe biden over donald trump? no. he's still toxic in the swing district and it is not changing in the general election. you have the republican party which has every advantage in the world right now including just one of the worst police cal operations i have every seen as far as democrats, as far as national messaging. just if you take the whole group of them i just have never seen a party as out of touch with middle america, and even the middle of their own party. but all of that said, donald trump is keeping them in the game because he's so located by swing voters. >> yeah, almost every issue out there as you know better than i do is a republican issue, border issues, crime issues, inflation issues and so forth. the thinking is they have to get to the general election. so few people actually vote in republican primaries, it is such an up represented slice of the american people that they are going far, far, far to the right in order to get the nod. but the irony is they don't -- if they get through that, having the trump -- >> listen, whether democrats like it or not, we have said this time and time again, it is inflation, crime, southern border. inflation, crime, southern border. i was talking to a democratic sheriff in a southern state who was telling me just the mass chaos on the southern border, the mass chaos and hough it is impacting florida-georgia. this is a democrat. the national party, i wish they would just come down here and look what is happening. he was talking about, you know, the repeal of rule 42. >> yeah. >> he said this is just the worst time. he said i have no idea why they won't talk about the crisis at the southern border. of course, they don't want to talk about crime either. again, you don't have to if you don't want to, there's an election this fall. we have to keep our borders and streets safe and we can do it in a humanitarian way. if we don't do it in a humanitarian way then things like donald trump will do it in their way. >> yeah. >> and we are americans. we don't want that to happen. >> we don't want it to happen to on of our local democrat politicians, they have to talk about crime in the cities. it hasn't translated national. coming up on "morning joe," the latest on the unrest after last week's fatal police-involved shooting of a black man in grand rapids, michigan. the reverend al sharpton joins us from that. one of our next says new york city eric adams needs a little religion on that. we will di into that ahead on "morning joe." ng joe." ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ i got the best news of all new york. we got 'em, we got the shooter. sure, it took 30 hours and the suspect turned himself in, but we got him. case closed. subway is fixed. ride without fear. and i'm not just holding a press conference about this either, i'm throwing a parade, y'all, like we do when the yankees win the world series or when the mets finish a season. >> i like that. >> i love what the commissioner said, we got him. you're thinking, well, yeah, he called from mcdonald's. so congratulations. >> all right. joining us now, host of msnbc's "politics nation," president of the nation action network, ref reverend al sharpton is with us. also from "the new york times," mara gay. you write, for now, the most desperate scenes of the housing crisis are unfolding in public view. children are sleeping in crowded subway cars. people are battling mental illness and drug adecks outside new york's most iconic land marks and in its famous parks. mr. adams talks about street homelessness as though it were a moral failure and about the people experiencing it as though they were incapable of hearing him. that is not dignity. that is disgusting. since mr. adams brought it up, the christian thing would be to end homelessness instead of shoveling it out of sight. people experiencing homelessness are our neighbors, valuable members of the city who have the same human potential as anyone else. this is a problem a number of cities are facing. >> it is a problem not only in new york, it is a problem all over the country. i thought it was a great op-ed, a challenging op-ed because i'm one of those that are like, all right, mr. mayor, great, let's take care of homelessness. of course -- >> but how? >> -- the christ-like thing, like rev al and i have said, is not to allow homelessness but not to sweep it aside. my question is why can't the richest city in the richest country in the world build shelters and provide treatment that are suitable for our homeless? >> the answer is we actually can do that. we are choosing not to because our policies are essentially tailored toward simply moving these people out of the way rather than actually getting them the help that they need and want and deserve. so, yes, this is a much more complicated population than the 45,000 people living in new york city shelters and in shelters across the country. many of those folks are working and their rent is just too high and they need some help with housing. this population who is out on the street, there's about 5,000 give or take in new york city, they need really intensive mental health services, addiction services, social workers to come and help them and meet them where they're at. we can actually do all of those things, and then the other key is to get them into transitional and then permanent shelter that is safe, clean, private and has the kind of wrap-around services that they need. we actually do know the things that work. >> right. >> and when we do those things, it does keep people off the street because there is a population that's larger that's in housing and getting those services so we know it works. but right now our policies are not geared toward helping them, it is just getting them out of our sight. >> out of our sight. >> and that's what is unchristian to me. >> of course, they'll come right back, rev. let's look at it first of all, again, valued based, and we will just say it here because mara's op-ed was written after going to a church service, but the christian thing to do, the christ-like thing to do if you actually believe the red words in the gospels, and instead of turning it into christian nationalism or something else that's not in the gospels, but if you actually read the red letters this is exactly what jesus ordered christians to do, to give a cup of water, to feed the hungry, to house the homeless, to help the least of these among us. so how do we do it and why can't we do it in new york city? >> you know, when i read mara's piece on easter sunday morning -- >> did you call the mayor? >> no, i changed my easter message. then i texted eric, he's inside of covid. i think that something would resonate with him because he is a church goer. when you look at the scripture where jesus says, i was hungry and you didn't clothe me. i was outdoors homeless and you didn't take me in. what jesus when we are celebrating the res election, if we're just hiding the poor, not providing them with services, just get them out of my eyesight so i can go shopping without having to see this as sinful as one could gert. i think she drove that point whom. i was ready to get ordained. >> amen. >> this is the mara message. if you can't do it in the richest city, i mean we are talking about the city of wall street, the city of the huge hedge fund guys. if you can't do it here, where are you going to do it? we ought to be setting the example here. and i don't think it was an attack as much as a moral appeal to the mayor of let's be what you say we can be. if we do all of the things that eric wants to do and all of us support him in doing that and continue deal with the homeless problem and becomes the national problem for that, then what we've done is for nothing. >> we are trying to get bem back to new york city so let's be -- policies always need to be this way. they don't always need to be this way but it is more effective if policies are the right thing to do but also the smart thing to do, also the financially most feasible thing to do. homeless people all over the streets of new york aren't good for tourists. >> right. >> you talked to the mayor beforehand and he was talking about we have to get tourists back from china, we have to get tourists back from europe. so it seems to me if we're getting this money back, if we want to get this money back, okay, fine, let's do the right thing morally but also let's do the right thing financially. this makes good financial sense to do the right thing. >> it does. to give people a quick sense of what is happening on new york city streets, it might be helpful here. you have the department of sanitation, so sanitation workers who usually take out the trash who are coming along with the nypd and other officials and essentially handing out vouchers to homeless individuals take to a dormitory-style shelter, get off the street and then their items, their personal property is thrown away. so that is not the help that they need or whatever. i don't think it is appropriate to send department of sanitation officials to human beings. it is not effective or morale. >> it is a long way from sending mental health providers to take care of these teams. >> reverend sharpton, you mentioned that you spoke to the mayor yesterday, we know you speak to president biden as well. what is the role that could be played, it is rising throughout the nation, what role can there be here, especially in a moment where there's a lot of federal funds available? >> i think we need to direct the federal funds through hud that is dealing with housing and have them also deal with homelessness. the secretary of hud i think has way to dig into the homeless situation, in a way they not just deal with it optically but deal with it with a multi-layered plan to bring the people that are homeless with mental and other issues, to readjust to going into society as people that can live in according housing. not just we need to get them off the street or we need to give you a 30 or 60-day plan where you go back into the same problems you had. i think we need a pointed program that chooses a certain amount of cities and develop it as a model. >> is there a city in the united states you would point to and say, they've got it right and new york should adopt it and scale back. >> i don't know of it. certainly when you look at the biggest cities, new york, l.a., they are not solved the problem. >> d.c.. >> i think throughout the covid pandemic. san francisco obviously has had challenges for 15 years. you look at portland. the crisis grows. >> the reality is that we need to talk about it as a housing crisis. >> it is. >> because we are just not building enough houses in this country at any income level, and trickle down theory really does work here because our middle class are living where upper class used to be able to aforward to live and so on and so forth. the root of the problem is that people will be homeless. >> the housing costs have exploded everywhere. >> that's a huge story we will cover a lot. the family of 26-year-old patrick lyoya are calling on the department to identify the police officer who shot them. take a look. >> they want to know the name and face of the person who executed their son. this police officer escalated a simple misdemeanor traffic stop to a deadly execution. >> police released several videos of the individual east last week, from body cameras, cellphone and doorbells. lyoya was pulling over on april 4th for a license violation. >> i'm stopping you. do you have a license. >> no, i don't. >> do you have a driver's license. do you speak english? >> yes. >> can i see your license? >> what happened now? >> the plate doesn't belong on this car. >> the altercation quickly escalated and lyoya took off running. the officer followed. a few minutes later the officer shot lyoya while he was lying face down on the ground. we warn you, this individual on yo is very disturbing. >> how many you got going. >> drop the taser. >> everyone -- >> protesters demonstrated in michigan over the weekend. how did this escalate -- >> a license plate. this happened in minneapolis. a license plate. listen, you know how i am on crime. >> right. >> we talked about it before. but this is a guy who went out looking for trouble and executed somebody who is doing nothing wong. >> no. >> shot him in the back of the head. >> there's not a great area here. you know, the father of lyoya was on the television. as i looked at the tape, as i decided to do the eulogy, i was trying to think how the opposition could make sense of this. a traffic stop and you shoot a guy in the back of the head while on top of him. so you know he doesn't have a gun on him. >> right. and the cops are not releasing the officer's name? >> they will not give his name. >> why not? >> that's a good question. >> why not? >> they will not give his name, the people who supported have been peace fe and they're saying, give us his name. you're on top of a guy, he doesn't have a gun, your life is not in danger. if he's trying to stop him from tasing him because from the tapes we could see he was not trying to grab things, he was trying to move the tailser because he didn't want to get shot with it. you shoot him in the back of the head, his head was down, he couldn't have been a threat to you. >> were guns drawn before he even gets out of the car. >> that i don't know. i'm saying it is as bad as it gets. when you see some things like the policeman convicted on george floyd, the police convicted on d'onta wright, that's why you need federal law. we can't keep playing russian roulette -- >> did i understand his body camera turned off. >> it was on initially, and during the altercation the camera turned off, it went off. >> and one from a building, like there are two or three different. >> right. >> again, they won't identify the policeman. does he have a record doing things violent? why are they trying to hide his identity. >> he tried to use his taser first, then as you point out he is on his back, he knows he is not armed, he has him pinned down, and shoots him in the back of the head. >> it is unbelievable that they haven't released his name, that they haven't told people more about what happened. >> i have a million questions. >> in addition to that, my question is why was he employed? who else is employed by this police department? >> right. >> what kind of training do they use? is this how they -- this is literally the reason for the black lives matter. >> right. >> because the only way something like this happens, clearly the officer was not in danger, is if that officer believed this man's life did not matter, was not valuable. for too many black americans, you know, that is the fear we have every time our brothers, fathers, friends out out into the street that there will be somebody to see them as a threat or not available. >> it goes back to what we talked about. it is on both sides. the crazies on the right don't understand, we're just pro cop. and the latte drinkers on the left don't understand, that we walk out of the door every day afraid of cops and robbers. we have to worry about a policeman that thinks they can shoot us in the back of the head. somebody said, he is now challenging the democrats. i ran for president to challenge the democrats because i felt they were not listening. >> i want to know if a white person in grand rapids has to get out of the car for a license plate designation. >> absolutely. >> don't they go to the window and say, can i see your license, you have a problem with the license plate and going -- >> and don't forget there was a passenger in the car. >> i'm confused. >> even if you say the guy didn't understand and he started running, he had somebody in the car that could identify him as you call for backup find him. you take out your gun and shoot him in the back of the head. >> i say all of the time because of the crime surge, a lot of law enforcement officers say they don't feel politicians don't have their backs. i'm the first to say politicians need to have the backs of police officers that go out every night, risk their lives every night, but with that support comes a great deal of responsibility. >> absolutely. >> the thing is, i will support you if you do your job. by the way, what happened where tragically a new york cop goss killed and you are running down corridors and doors are opening, things happen. i don't want to be in that position. >> i know. >> i'm sure nobody here wants to be. at that point we have to be more understanding of police officers. if they make terrible mistakes. man, in a case like this, there is no question. and if you want cops, if cops want people to have their backs, then there comes great responsibility with that. i will tell you, the first thing that happens in an incident like this, mara, is if this happens i will have your back. but if you shoot somebody like this, everybody is going to know within an hour because you have to have buy in from the community. >> right. >> so when i'm talking to you saying we have to have the cops' back, you say back to me, that's fine, but we need reform and we need transparency. >> this is the problem e when there is no accountability, there can be no trust. >> right. >> i think everybody wants to talk, oh, it is both sides and communities need to trust police. no, these are officers entrusted by the law paid by city taxpayer dollars to do their job. it is a huge responsibility. i don't envy them. i think it is a tough job. they do need support, they need training, all of those things. the reality is that the public trust is in their hands, so really the burden of responsibility is to bring accountability when things do go wrong, because if there isn't -- >> right. >> -- you cannot ask citizens to say, well, the next time my dad goes out i'm going to trust he's not going to run across an officer like that. >> right. >> why would we? that's the question. >> so when you -- when something like this happens there has to be transparency. >> right, no accountability. >> there hasn't been transparency in the past. there have been in a few, which when that happens you're like, okay, this is how you do it. >> to your point, when you have officers running down corridors that they could be in danger in any one of those doors opening, that's understandable. but a traffic stop? i mean we're not even talking about a gray area here. i think the trauma going back to student minister mara over here's point, the trauma of waking up and one minute you have a guy shooting on the subway so you are afraid if you are in the city to get positive a train because of somebody with mental health issues and you are afraid to call police because you saw a guy shoot a guy in the back of the head, we need to as a society deal with the balance between public safety and police reform. >> in this case and then we will go, the guy is running away. the cop can go, don't do that. i've got his car, i have somebody in the car. >> that's right. >> i got your car here. we know who you are. you are not going to be able -- come on back. >> he was scared. >> the guy was scared. thing about it. you have the car. you have somebody in the car. you know, this guy is not risking the lives -- >> he is right to run if the reality -- i would have run from that officer, too. >> again, what is the training? if you didn't do what we just said, joe, if you never went through the training, if saying i got your car, we have your passengers, if that didn't occur to you to say, what was your training? >> right. rev al and mara gay -- >> where are you going to be preaching sunday? >> i will be doing the memorial. >> where are you preaching, rev mara? >> i will be having the day off. >> we will be thinking about you and the family. >> 8 minutes past the top of the hour. back to the war in ukraine where president zelenskyy is calling on president biden to visit his country. . >> do you want president biden to come here? >> yes. >> are there any plans for him to come? >> i think he will. >> you think he will? >> i think he well, but it is his decision, of course and about the safety decision. it depends. but i think, i think the leader of the united states, and that's why he should come here to see. >> i thought it was diplomatic. you ask the question, of course, he is going to say yes. >> yeah. that's what i'm calling on. >> he did say there was a safety issue to be concerned about. >> other parts of the interesting that were interesting, basically zelenskyy saying my ability, our ability to compromise down the road is being shrunk. to me the real takeaway is that the idea that diplomacy is going to resolve this, the odds of that are increasingly remote. >> yeah. >> this is going to be a long, long, long walk. >> let me ask you a question. why? i mean xi has made so many horrible miscalculations over the past few years, i have to say one of the dumbest leaders, unfortunately one of the most important. why doesn't he step in and say, vlad, you're not helping yourself, you're not helping us, let's figure out a way to get it done with, get you back into the international community, get trade coming. why is xi not doing it? it is not serving him any good purpose. >> it is not. >> it is like cheering for the baltimore orioles, for god sake, exempt yesterday. >> two out of three. let's not go there. that's beneath you. no, i think for xi jinping it is hard to admit that he got it wrong. you know, this is a guy that projects this aura of authority, always right. to sort of admit he made a mistake, well, if he made a mistake, what we're, what then. this is kind of what china is about -- >> but it is being exposed. that's what i don't understand. you want to do that anti-democracy schtick, you can do that. but when you fight wars and you show how corrupt having a tyrant at the top rots the entire country every day. it is not like we haven't said this sing the beginning of the war. every dea he exposes himself and now you have latvia going, you know what? we're not too scared of the russian army after all. they look worse every day. the question is why doesn't xi say, let's cut our losses here, let's just look at the map, pick a win we will have a may 9th. i will come down, we will hang out in moscow. >> not so easy. it takes one to start a war, vladimir putin. it takes two to stop a war. >> uh-huh. >> even if putin woke up tomorrow and said, okay, i'm ready to declare victory, and i don't think ukraine would accept it. he has set it in motion. >> russian missiles hit ukraine overnight, but most of the fire power is targeting the eastern part of the country. zelenskyy says 18 people were kid, swores injured in car chief over the past few days. it comes as rush delivered an ultimatum yesterday to the besieged city of mariupol in the eastern city of ukraine, surrender or else. some estimate as much as 95% of the city has almost destroyed but still the fighters refused. nbc's matt bradley reports from ukraine. >> reporter: mariupol makes its last stand. only a couple thousand ukrainian soldiers still holding out in a steel factory, defying russia's ultimatum to surrounding. they are determine to stay. >> our city still has not fallen. there is still our military forces, our soldiers so they will fight for them. as of now they are still in mariupol. >> reporter: russia's military claims it controls most of the city's center, an assertion that couldn't be confirmed. if the city does finally fauld ukraine's president warned of major consequences. the russians are making a hughes mistake, said zelenskyy. the destruction of our guys in mariupol can put an end to any negotiations. negotiations that might have prevented shelling that killed five and injured 20 according to the region's governor and suspended a world central restaurant featuring humanitarian aid. hundreds of thousands have managed to flee. >> so in 15th of march we skipped. what i remember is dead bodies around us, yeah, so we were driving around dead bodies. >> reporter: nicholas runs a local television channel in mariupol. dozens of his staff remain in the city. he want to know if they're all alive and well, but with all communications suffered he can't reach them. >> compared to live people in my tv chair, i don't know where are they, whether they are there. >> reporter: like so many ukrainians he can only wait and hope. >> i don't know how, petro poroshenko. thank you for joining us. >> mr. president, what do you need? >> wow. we need putin away from ukrainian soil, and for that ukraine demonstrates unique capabilities to fight. and we need three things, weapons, weapons and weapons. weapons, number one, this is the tanks, anti-aircraft missile and -- weapon number two, this is the sanction and embargo. a total energy product of russia. you know if ukraine less than $2 billion military assistance, russia this year obtained almost $50 billion. weapon number three, this is the complete isolation of putin. with that demonstration, the global solidarity with ukraine. my piece of advice would be if we can invite president joe biden to visit kyiv because this is the demonstration of the global leadership of the american president and the solidarity with ukraine, giving putin the strong message we never give up. >> mr. president, can mariupol be saved? is it too late to save mariupol? what can be done to save it? >> too late, you cannot find out any example in the whole military history when completely encircled city for 54 days without food, without water, without new ammunition, ukrainian soldier is fighting against russia. this is the -- mariupol is famous for their iron industry, but i think that would be forever in history of ukrainian soldiers which fighting in mariupol and defending mariupol, and definitely we need to save mariupol from russian barbarian. today ukrainian side publish figures by ukraine and mariupol mayor, and they said that more than 15,000 city people were killed only in mariupol. russia confirmed only 10,000. can you imagine, 15,000 for 54 days. only in one city. and if the world knows what happened in bucha, it appeared other -- and this is without mariupol. this is the way how putin want to see ukraine. if he cannot capture ukraine within four days, today is 54 days when ukraine is fighting, they want to completely erase our country from the earth. and this is happen just in front of your eyes. definitely we do our best, not allow putin to use this anne arrow. can you imagine yesterday and today, powerful cruise missile attack on volunteer center in kharkiv, and when paramedics come to save civilians, to give them medical offensive, they lost a second missile to kill the paramedics, to kill humanitarians who tried to kill people. just yesterday i was in commodores which is right on the front line, and because of the fact putin published his plan on the 18th today, to organize their big attack. and today also in the volunteer center when the people of the volunteers delivering their food, delivering their systems, humanitarian assistance to the people, and there's less than 20 percent left there and it is happening today. >> at this point, what, if any, price do you believe ukraine should be prepared to pay for peace? must the russians give up or do you see an argument for compromise whatsoever? >> please, let's change your question. because this is not ukraine paying the price for peace. this is the world should pay the price for peace. if we never give up, putin never give up. who knows what door he knock, in poland, in baltic states, nobody knows. help us to do your job to stop putin. give us more weapons because i very much appreciate the weapons we receive from the united states, but, again, imagine that 300 tanks, 1,000 personnel carrier, jet fighter and 300 missiles completely would be game changer. the ukrainian soldiers can surprise the world, not only stop him but put him away from ukraine, savings the world. number two, stop financing putin because oil and gas embarrass embargo would be more noticeable. the compromise with putin is impossible because putin want to simply kill us, and we just want to live. this is the distance which is possible to cover. >> former president of ukraine, petro poroshenko. thank you. we hear you. thank you for being on with us. joining the table professor of history at new york university, ruth ben ghiat. -a-thon of the book "strongman, mussolini to the present." thank you for coming in. >> ruth, you talk about ukraine falling would be absolutely bad but you say it is critical for putin for a win. >> some people are talking about this as plan b to concentrate everything on the east after mariupol would fall, but i see this as operation save face. >> right. >> because putin needs a victory, and as somebody who studies autocrats i see things going on the battlefield in ukraine in relation to what is going on at home. putin is in trouble. he has been embarrassed in front of the world with the poor performance of his military and they're puffing up his personality cult, releasing stories that he is more popular than ever, which is a sure sign that they need to do that. so the saving face and the may 9th is very important. they're going to have a victory because he wants to be stalin 2.0, and may 9th is the anniversary of the defeat of the russians over the nazis. but all of these fighters on at home are giving us clues about what putin needs to happen in ukraine. >> one thing i noticed, ruth and richard, is on russian television there's the pundits, if you can call them that, but they're talking a lot about it not being just a war with ukraine but a war with nato, which is a change, isn't it, in terms of how they are messaging this? >> yeah. >> what could the possible -- >> instead of the -- whatever, special -- >> special military operation. >> yes, where it is us against the world. >> it is russia against ukrainian and american neo-nazis. >> i think for over 20 years putin has justified his rule as defender of russia against the west, you know, a shadowy conspiracy of the entire message. the moral side is on ukraine's side, so they now have to have russia against everyone, and this is what strongmen do. they claim they're defenders but they're also the victims of everything. i alone can fix it. >> isn't that something i've heard before? >> it is an explanation for the russians as to why the casualties are so high. it is not just ukraine but they're fighting nato and the united states. but, yes, it is ramping up. this is becoming a war not just in reality but rhetorically for putin, and this suggests to me that he understands he has now created something much larger than he never imagined and the stakes have been declared. >> i mean he does need a win. maybe it is mariupol, maybe it is the donbas. he needs a win and i can't get one. i keep repeating what the turkish negotiator said, well, do you think we will have peace any time soon? he said no, because putin is not coming to the table as emil waited as he can right. his troops won't give him a victory. >> even if he had a win it is not clear he could keep it. that's what the shore poroshenk request was. even if putin wakes up and says, okay, i've got what i want. >> what is your likelihood in your estimation he would turn to the unthinkable and release chemical or nuclear weapons. we have the saying that russia has no use for a world if it is not in it. >> that's right. chemical weapons and terror tactics. they used them in syria with the sarin gas. he do whatever he needs. the russian state media has been delaying, raising total war, biological, chemical, annihilation. >> right. >> that is what he has to do. the thing about putin is they have no moral code or humanitarian sentiment. those are for weak ling goes. >> again. when he is talking about annihilation. he could be setting up again a negotiation, trying to get a victory, threatening the worst. again, i have to agree with you. nobody is challenging putin, nobody so sure. i don't think they are. i think they know the truth, if you don't know -- he is losing his best, brightest, youngest people, the -- it was weak before. he has got, for his own survival doesn't he have to bring it in for a longer. you know, this war these this pipeline of troops that come come -- a percentage of the army is conscripts and they only serve for about a year. we have seen mothers of russian soldiers breaking the propaganda wall saying, oh, my son was not told the truth. >> right. >> this is going to escalate so more and more russians will know the truth the longer this drags on. still ahead on "morning joe," from russia to china as global autocracies are on the rise. our next guest looks at i didn't democracies fall apart and how to endure. fuss, newly revealed text messages show senator lee tried to help donald trump overturn the 2020 election. >> that's one thing, if you act like my colleague, lee, and you try to overturn elections. >> you are watching "morning joe" i i will be right back. ba. , protected and undeniably sleek. depend. the only thing stronger than us, is you. 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what's the deal? >> this is so disturbing. >> did this guy vote in -- he voted in one state, right? >> he has electoral fraud. >> he had a bird house in north carolina or something? >> it was a mobile home that authorities say he never lived? >> someone else lived there. >> he actually never visited. >> he never visited? >> yeah. >> he has been kicked off the voter rolls there. it adds to, though unrelate ltd, further pressure on the attorney general of the justice department to say -- >> he can say, there's proof, i did voter fraud, i did it. >> did he vote in virginia? did he vote -- >> he voted in north carolina. >> yes, but apparently he didn't live there. >> but he lived in virginia? >> yes. >> that's not the point of the story. >> i know, but i'm trans fixed on this voter fraud. >> he did a good job proving it. >> now i believe it. >> a series of texts between lee and utah senator mike lee, show how the two trump supporters were looking to the white house for guidance on how they could ensure trump would remain president. according to cnn, senator lee sent a text message to meadows on november 7th, offering his, quote, unequivocal support for you to exhaust every legal and constitutional remedy at your disposal to restore american's faith in our election. i'm so confused. >> let's just say here that americans have faith in elections. they only stopped having faith in elections when donald trump and people like you started lying about what donald trump's own administration called the cleanest election in american history. >> except for mark meadows. >> hold on. let me say that again. donald trump's own administration, the guy who was in charge of figuring out whether the elections were clean or not, said it was the safest, the cleanest, the fairest election in u.s. history. >> that same day congressman roy also reportedly texted meadows writing, we need ammo. >> nothing concerning about that line. >> we nude fraud examples. >> you don't have it. >> we need it this weekend. >> you have 63 federal judges there, chip, who said there was no widespread election fraud. you had the united states supreme court, chip, who said there was no widespread election fraud. >> congressman roy responded to the report on friday tweeting, i will say this once, no apologies for my private text or public -- >> you should apologize. you have revealed yourself as somebody who hate it american democracy. you have spoken and revealed yourself as somebody who only supports american democracy when your side wins. that sort of goes against the whole idea of person democracy there, doesn't it, chip? doesn't it? you're not ashamed of it, you should be ashamed of yourself in front of your children, you should be ashamed of yourself in front of your family, you should be ashamed of yourself in front of your constituents because you were working to undermine a free and i fair election. you were working to undermine a democracy. guess what. judges who are liberal, judges who within centrists, judges who were federalist society judges, they all agreed on the same thing. there was no widespread voter fraud. so you are just trying to take the law into your own hands. so, yeah, if you are not ashamed of what you did and you are not ashamed of your tactics. >> i focus on senator lee. a spokesman said the same story for senator lee told from the floor of the senate the day he voted to certify the election results of each and every state in the nation. nbc news has not seen the question. >> let's bring in the founder of the magazine "persuasion." it is a good name for a magazine. >> i like it. >> isn't it? >> and the host of the product cast "the good fight," the contributing editor of "the atlantic" and senior fellow at council on foreign relations, yascha mounk, author of "the great experiment, why diverse democracies fall apart and how they can endure." >> it seems a great place to start, richard haass. talk about the foreign relations and richard haas came in with a heavy hand. >> right before we went on the air, threatened we have to talk about the great -- >> it is sort of like putin and xi before the war, right. >> so make your argument. >> it is just like -- >> right here. you want to turn from morning yo, you we can't let that happen. give us why democracies are falling apart. >> some democracies like the united states that have been diverse, but allowed one group to oppress and maltreat other groups with forms of domination. what we're trying to do in the democracy, not so bad with democracies around the world, is to build democracies that are very ethnic and actually treat all of their members as equals. that's something historically new and something very, very difficult to do and get right, but it can explain a lot of things we see happening in american politics. >> can i celebrate american democracy? >> please. >> you look back at the 2020 election, what do you see? i will bring it up again as i was telling old chipper there. one federal judge after another federal judge -- >> that's true. >> -- said we are a nation of laws. we can talk about the democratically appointed federal judges. i like to focus on "the federalist" society judges, the people appointed by donald trump that people on the left said, oh, my good, they're going to excellent and steal the election, well it came to a surprise to amy kony barritt. brett kavanaugh, no. there are federal judges in pennsylvania, you read some of their opinions, they're so conservative, treated donald trump's claims with utter contempt and disdain. so how does that factor in? does it may us less likely to fall apart? >> yes, american has a tradition and one of the things that saved us from turning into a nondemocratic regime under the rule of donald trump as so many other democracies around the world did. but, of course, it is also a question of values and a generational question. we are seeing more and more state officials being replaced by trumpists. more and more secretaries around the state replaced by people who have sworn allegiance to donald trump in a new way. in 2024 or 2028 or 2032, it may no longer be the case. it depends ultimately on the values of the people in power. >> you know, we did something very unusual in the history of democratic destruction because we had somebody who was an authoritarian leader wannabe, donald trump, and we entrusted his process of what we call autocratic capture. we interrupted it by having record voter turnout and the had the energy of the black lives matter protests but it went beyond that. that is he is very rare. i'm an optimistic and i hold on to that because it is not seen often and we should be proud of it. >> we interrupted it, but i don't think the tendency is complete. i don't think it is over. so i think that the threat to our democracy is still very existent. >> and this is connected to the idea of diverse democracies, because one reason it becomes very dangerous is when political fights turn into deeper group-based fights. >> right. >> that's when you have a sense that the 2024 election is not just a competition between democrats and republicans but the way that many republicans and democrats are presenting it, that it is a fight between people of color, a fight between different demographic groups. >> what is fightening is the argument that seems to be teaming in even single years which is this election is the fight for the put of real testify. you hear it more and more every couple of years, things get split up. i want to follow up on this diverse country and how diversity can be a challenge for democracies. in this case though as we have said speaking about democracy. you had black women in milwaukee county, wisconsin, you had black women in philadelphia, you had black women in atlanta, people who were excluded from active participation in madisonian democracy for the longest time stepping up and actually making the difference in pushing aside the guy who did not respect the constitutional norms of our paddisonian democracy. i think it is nothing short of remarkable. >> particularly within black voters were the heroes of the 2020 election, standing up to donald trump, the rise in turnout in the key swing states and also to deliver the senate to democrats in that election. heroes, if you are chip row and you are planning to toss out elections, make not so much. >> those are the same people, the heroes of 2020 who are so nervous about the restrictions of voting rights in so many states and why we've been frustrated at the lack of federal effort and legislation about this. josh, i want to ask you about democracies people are worried about right now, can we talk about france right now and the rise of nationalism across europe. particularly in france, le pen, "morning joe" had her as a clear underdog. >> "morning joe" off track had 58.5 over/under. >> certainly the underdog, i think we also agree on that. but still seeing on track at the very least to see her perform over five years ago. what threat does she and others like her pose? >> this is now the third time. the first team her dad got about 18% of the vote in the second vote. five years ago marine got about 40% of the vote. now she has 47 or 48. she will probably not reach third. she certainly is h third. she certainly is ing stronger and stronger, and part of the reason is a deep pessimism around the spread of making diverse democracies work. you have the far right, people like marine le pen, you had people flanking her on the right saying the state of france is a disaster, they hate the value fs of the french republic, you have them that the distribution of blame here is wrong and unfair, but it is true our country is so discriminatory. immigrants are succeeding. frankly, the reality, you see people making progress. the intellectual situation is that it makes it easier for a far right to win. that for me is a lesson to the united states. if you hear the people on the right of the republican party seeing some of the facts you are talking about as the country becomes less white and diverse we will never be able to win because these people don't care about the republican party, republican values, and, guy the way, immigrants are not integrating. we are not suck sealeding. succeeding. by the way, immigrants aren't succeeding because of the discrimination, the racism in the country that really exists. it is a really dangerous overall narrative. that's what tempts a lot of people to vote for her, right. we need to say two things. first of all, by the way, this is not true. we have seen in 2020, the reason that donald trump was competitive in the election is that he increased the share of the vote among every nonwhite voter group. the other reason joe biden became president is because he said compared to every other democracy in the history of the world we're doing well and we can be proud of the progress made in last decades. >> i see with macron going center right, getting tougher on immigration, he is filling a void that centrist candidates have left wide open over the past decade. talk about the bait in france, whether you are talking about the break with brexit where it has been all or nothing. if you are with any san at this time or immigration policies across the eu, suddenly you are a fascist. it hollowed out the center. with macron you finally have someone who says, wait a second, you don't have to be neo-nazi or an extreme nationalist. you can be for sane, sensible immigration policies. we need to understand that in america. we are a nation of immigrants. that's who we are. it is not who the germans or the french are. it is much harder for immigrants going into france or going into germany to assimilate. here you come to america, as general haden always said, you put up your hand. you know, we believe in a creed. you put up a hand, you repeat the creed, you are good now as someone who has been here 300 years. >> one of the great comparatives of america. if you look at the history of the country one of the benefits derived from immigrants is extraordinary. immigrants because they have to take the exam to get here, they know what we are talking about with the values. they're aware of the values and the things that are being written about in this book. >> by the way, looking at the book to have a better understanding and appreciation for the country than a lot of people born here. >> they voted with their feet to come here. >> right. >> only at tremendous sacrifice, at kpre risk. they operated to come here. it wasn't simply and you know this better, is the center is hollowed out with much of the industry on the two extremes and the question is whether candidates will move towards the center because it is a lonely place. >> the book is "the great experiment: why diverse democracies fall apart and how they can endure." thank you very much for being on this morning. >> can the council endure? >> we will do five more years. >> and you can survive? >> thank you. it is great to have you on as well. it has been fantastic. sinking of russia's key warship in the black sea. >> that and expert analysis from retired u.s. army general steph twitty on the ukrainians in mariupol fighting to the bitter end. >> plus, we'll look at how china's extreme covid lockdowns are already having an impact on the global supply chain. we're back in just a moment. - hiring is step one when it comes to our growth. we can't open a new shop or a new location without the right people in place. i couldn't keep up until i found ziprecruiter. ziprecruiter helps us get out there quickly and get us qualified candidates quickly. they sent us applicants that matched what i was looking for. i've hired for every role, entry-level technicians, service advisors, store managers. ziprecruiter helps me find all the right people, even the most difficult jobs to fill. - [announcer] ziprecruiter, ratedthenumber one hiring site. try it for free at ziprecruiter.com cal: our confident forever plan is possible with a cfp® professional. a cfp® professional can help you build a complete financial plan. visit letsmakeaplan.org to find your cfp® professional. ♪♪ you know. we got roger bennett. nbc sports, soccer analyst, and cohost of men in blazers, and soon an owner of a lumy pet. roger bennett. roger, roger. first of all, explain to the teeming masses in america why the fa cup holds a special place in the hearts of every englishman and woman and then explain why my liverpool squad may be going for not the treble but the quad, baby. talk about it. >> the fa cup, america, it's like the usfl of english football trophies. >> stop it. >> an in-season knockout tournament with 760 times now down to its final four. it takes place at london's famed wembley stadium. those are the ten minutes of english sunshine that happened in 2022. you are seeing all of them now. >> beautiful. in fact, that's even the matrix, where trinity goes, it's beautiful, and then she dies. >> you have league leaders, manchester city against liverpool. two best teams in the world clashing again. like rocky balboa getting back in the ring with appalollo cree but in cleats, and liverpool opening the scoring. rising like a soccer, and it would soon be 2, city. this is awful. stafford from coatesville, p.a. this is harder to experience than tax day. let's just say, the only other american i have seen defend so self-destructively is rudy giuliani. my heart breaks for him here. sadder than barbara hershey in "beaches." liverpool made it three before halftime. saying break it down, hammer time. city came back late. liverpool held on to win 3-2. dreams of an unprecedented quadruple still alive. huge credit to the boston red sox owners who built this team. they used the stat stuff from american sports and it's working. other game, chelsea football club in purgatory as they're being sold byrosion abromavich, a war of attrition blown open by chelsea. they showed the right foot has firmer nuclear capacity, and mason mount, one of the great english names, should have lord attached to it, rolled the ball home. like a pba star. pete weber, who do you think you are? chelsea survive and advance to face your liverpool, may 14th. a repeat match of the other domestic cup. liverpool/chelsea 2. electric boogaloo may 14th. by then, chelsea should have new owners. three of the four remaining bidders are americans. we may not be the best players at football in the world, but no one is better at owning the best teams in the world than us, america. >> we can do it now. i want you to look, roger, this is what mika has. she puts me in her room. they're lumi pets. they're very deeply disturbing to me, but she puts them on at night. >> aren't they cute? >> she says they calm her down. >> they're soft. >> so mika wants to send you a lumi pet for yourself. >> i'm going to get you an elephant for your background. >> i love this. i have been coming on the show for a decade, and every week, you tell me i'm incredibly weird, and this is your moment. i love it and i love you. i'll put it by tracy chapman. >> she'll love that. >> i love that. roger bennett, you are the best. and of course, roger's book. >> yeah. >> reborn in the usa. it's extraordinary. >> thank you, roger. we're going to reset for the top of the hour and pretend all of that didn't happen. richard haass. >> shall we talk to richard quickly? richard wants to talk about golf. >> no, he failed. he did not pass the test. >> i predicted the winner of the masters. >> yes, but it's about your performance on television. we gave you a break. you blew it. >> what happened the past weekend. wasn't there a golf match? >> at hilton head. rbc, and jordan spieth won. first playoff hole, fantastic bunker shot over patrick cantlay. what was interesting, joe, because there's hope for you. jordan spieth won even though he putted worse than anyone else in the tournament. it shows your inability to putt doesn't hold you back. >> now he things turning the guns on me is going to help him. nobody wants him on to do this. >> not a smart man. >> i do this. i could have talked about spring. what is the first sign of spring? in brooklyn? >> the middle fingers. >> they lost, by the way. celtics on. >> kyrie was defending the man who got the game-winning basket because he wasn't paying attention in the last few seconds of the game, and he's the g.o.a.t. >> not the greatest of all time. >> no. the old fashioned goat. >> just a short time ago, we spoke with former ukrainian president poroshenko amid expectations that mariupol, the site of a brutal seven-week siege, and where defenders refuse to surrender, could fall within days. >> it is too late to save mariupol? what can be done to save it? >> you can't find out any example in the whole military history when completely encircled city for 54 days without food, without water, without new ammunition. ukrainian soldiers is fighting against russia. this is the -- mariupol is famous for their iron industry, but i think that would be forever in history because of their iron ukrainian soldiers. >> russia's defense ministry released video of what it says is the crew of its battleship that sank in the black sea last week. the video shows an admiral addressing dozens of sailors but nowhere near the 500 crew members that russia claims were on the ship. moscow says the surviving sailors were taken to a major port in crimea. which russia took control of in 2014. russia claims the ship sank after a fire caused by an ammunition explosion. but ukrainian forces say they hit the ship with two missiles. the loss of russia's premier battleship has a popular primetime talk show host in moscow questioning what really happened. "the new york times" reports the host who typically follows kremlin talking points, said he was outraged and demanded an explanation for what went wrong. meanwhile, another russian general has been killed in battle in ukraine. the governor of st. petersburg confirmed the death but did not say where or when it happens. the general who was buried over the weekend was commanding russian troops near mariupol. ukrainian forces have now reportedly killed at least, get this, eight russian generals since the war began. >> shocking. >> it would be shocking if one. >> those are world war ii numbers. unbelievable. >> pretty amazing and a very symbolic and it's a real punch back to the russians. at least seven people were killed and 11 others injured when russian missiles hit the western ukrainian city of lviv this morning. the city has been largely untouched by deadly violence and had become a refuge for thousands of civilians fleeing the war from other parts of the country. >> let's bring in nbc foreign correspondent rav sanchez live from lviv. what's going on? >> good morning. you can probably see behind me it's pretty calm here right now. people are out on the streets, but all morning here, the air raid sirens have been blaring as russian missiles have rained down on this city. the governor is saying seven people killed, 11 injured, including a baby in those attacks. the missiles hit a number of military warehouses, but we also just came from a car repair shop that took a direct hit from one of those missiles. it is not clear why that shop was hit. it's very close to the railway line. it's possible the russians were aiming at that, but it's also possible they're just continuing a campaign we have seen throughout this war of targeting civilian infrastructure, of bringing terror to the ordinary people of ukraine. now, as you said, this city has been a place of relative safety throughout the war. displaced civilians who have been fleeing from the east have come here by train. they have sought refuge here or kept going further west into europe. this is a reminder vladimir putin's missiles can reach every corner of this country and what a lot of ukrainians here in lviv suspect is going on is these missiles are his way of retaliating for that humiliation on the black sea and the sinking of his flagship. joe, mika. >> thank you so much, raf. greatly appreciate it. let's bring in right now news director for newline's magazine, journalist michael weisz. he recently returned from a trip to ukraine, and also retired u.s. army general steph twitty. he served multiple combat tours in iraq and afghanistan and prior to his retirement in 2020 was deputy commander of the united states european command. we're pleased to announce this morning he's now an msnbc military analyst. general, great news for us. thank you so much. let's start with the news mika just read about an eighth russian general killed in action. you know, i heard a general on another network say about a month ago after the first general had died, he said, you know, i just wouldn't do that, to embarrass my country. when you're a general, you know, you have to stay alive. what is happening that so many of these generals are being exposed and becoming target practice for ukrainians? >> a great question. first of all, thanks for letting me be on your show again this morning. there are a couple things that's going on here. number one, it is obvious that there's a lack of a professional noncommission officer corps in the russian army. it is noncommissioned officers that lead troops in battle. it is the general officers that develop the strategy and implement the strategy for the operation to occur. and in this case, you have generals filling in in the place of noncommissioned officers and they don't know what they're doing. that's the first thing. the second thing is, many of these generals are talking on their cell phones, talking in the clearing. apparently, four of these generals were caught by talking on their cell phones so the ukrainians, they were able to pinpoint their location and bring in drone and artillery fire on their position. you never talk in a clear in combat because they can get you. >> i was going to ask really quickly on that point before you get to the final point. first of all, could you ever imagine doing that in combat? i mean, just for our viewers, help our viewers understand how radically different what's hanning with russian troops is from what happens when the united states goes into battle. >> yeah, so there's one word to describe it. it is discipline. discipline. professional militaries enforce discipline. and enforce accountability throughout their ranks. and so if you notice over the past couple weeks, there are indicators of a lack of discipline within the russian army. they fire indiscriminately. if you look at where their battle positions were, all the trash that was around and so forth, their mre boxes and so forth. that would never happen in the u.s. military because you would have a noncommissioned officer down there kicking those soldiers' butts to insure they cleaned up the place, even in battle. so it's all about discipline and accountability within the ranks. >> it's unbelievable. so michael, you just got back from ukraine. talk about the difference, we talked about the difference between the u.s. forces and russian forces. talk about the difference between the ukrainian forces and the russian forces. >> it's kind of remarkable, joe. these guys have been playing a mobile defense game. this is how they have essentially retaken all of kyiv. they allowed the russians to draw themselves in too far, stretching their supply lines and the ukrainians dispatch their special forces, blowing up fuel trucks, destroying logistics. they're also holding back a lot of weaponry, sophisticated weaponly. we talked about the tb-2 drones. i talked to a brigadier general in their military intelligence service who says we're not using these things to go after tank columns. we're using them to go after air defense systems. going after russian tanks he said is, quote, easy. remember that snaking convoy north of kyiv. he said i don't know what you were worried about. we had this under control from day one. we flooded the area. they got stuck in the mud, and we picked them off. >> talk about the difference between ukraine in 2014 and forces in 2022. the "wall street journal" had a story last week talking about a lot of training with nato, with the west. >> absolutely. it's been a complete transformation. keep in mind, the u.s. began training ukrainian forces in 2010. general mark hertling has spoken about it a lot. >> you can say cnn. >> we're all friends here. >> we're all friends. it's not a promotion, exactly, but chris lict, who was ep here, you know, he's doing the best he can. he's going to be president at cnn. he's trying. trying. congratulations, chris. >> so anyway, in the last eight years it's been a marked transformation. most of the country that has been deployed has been fighting russian regulars. we have this notion of the so-called separatists. they got their clock cleaned. you just interviewed pet rushiancoe. that ozraination pushing back the separatist forces in donbas. it's only when the russians began sending in their conventional units, they started to solidify gains. >> they have been fighting for eight years and haven't been able to nail it down. >> 420,000 ukrainians have faced some level of combat. >> can i ask you this and then ask the general? not being glib here. there were supposed to be like one of the top militaries in the world. why are the russians so bad at fighting wars? >> i would put it this way. the last 20 years, we have all been talking about corruption. we have all been talking about the rot at the heart of putin's regime. every sector of government is riddled with people who just simply steal from the top. dip their hand in the till. alexei navalny's videos that go viral. how does a guy with a salary of $80,000 a year afford a watch that's worth 50 times than annual salary. it beggars belief in retrospect that the russian military would be the one state institution somehow insusceptible to corruption and kleptocracy. i have been told credible stories not just by the ukrainians but by western intel. it's the kind of thing where they'll say let's order 150 t-90 tanks. maybe 75 get made and where did the money go for the rest of them? into the pockets of the officers. that's one explanation. another is the russians have never faced this level of combat. again, we described ukraine as a near peer adversary. i would say right now, they're probably a peer if not a superior adversary to the russians. >> how did that -- have they been preparing since crimea and gathering themselves together? >> absolutely. >> and the russians had no clue of this? >> well, the russian intelligence has been quite poor. you just saw a video, they rocketed a rail station in lviv. i did that journey from poland, across the border. took many hours to get across the border and then drove to lviv and took the train to kyiv and did it all the way in reverse. the guy i was driving with said, we are bringing in so many tons of western weapons across this border. by car. in some cases it's being driven with red siren alarms by ukrainian police. the russians have not interdicted a single western supply line, or if they have, there's been no lick of evident of it. instead, they hit civilian infrastructure. >> so general, michael just talked about the last 20 years of corruption in the russian military. something i have been talking about, especially since we did such an extraordinary job in syria, the 2500 troops that held back the russians that held by the iranians, that held back isis, defeated isis, held back assad. i was talking about how our footprint can be smaller because we have tragically, of course, fought the last 20 years in hot zones, whether it's iraq or whether it's in afghanistan. those 20 years have made our fighting forces sharp in urban conflict. and on the cutting edge in just about every area. could you talk about what those 20 years have done, not just for us being able to train the ukrainians but also the weapons systems we're getting into the hands of the ukrainians and how the russians have spent the last 20 years, their military mired in corruption. we have been in hot zones and for all the tragedies and all the expenses we talk about all the time, the one thing that has been overlooked is the fact, we have just got the best fighting forces on the planet. >> absolutely. it's no doubt about it that the u.s. has the best fighting force, and we have the best equipment. and so you talked about the last 20 years. what is important to look, as you look at that 20 years, many of our veterans, they have not one time in combat, not two times in combat, but several of our veterans have eight years, nine years, ten years in combat. they're battle hardened. they understand how to fight, not just an urban battle, urban warfare, but they also understand how to fight large scale combat operations, which means you have to synchronize and integrate air force fires, naval fires with ground fires. and they know how to fire and maneuver, and they know how to sustain themselves logistically. all those things i just talked about over the past couple weeks, you have seen lacking in the russian military. look, i was the deputy commander of united states european command. i watched the russians every day for two years. they have a lot of fancy and great equipment. high technology equipment. but the one thing that's missing out of that is you have to train on that equipment. and you have to train on it in a joint environment. that means the navy, air force, the army all have to come together and train. i never witnessed them looking over the border from european command headquarters bring all this technology together with all of their troops in order to train large-scale combat operations to fight a peer competitor. and hence, that's the problem that you're witnessing on the ground in ukraine now. >> so michael, outside of a few petulant air strikes from putin at lviv and kyiv, we have a sense the fighting is going to be focused in the east. we talked about how the russians will have advantages. they have tanks, it terrain is different. won't the ukrainians have some pluses in their column as well? talk about those? >> the kit that's being provided to them are more offensive weaponry. these are distinctions with a difference. a weapon that killicize a weapon that kills, but long range artillery systems, helicopter gun ships, tanks, to press the fight to try to expel the russians out of the areas they have occupied. but it's important to note, jonathan, and you mentioned this earlier. ukrainians are not waiting for putin's time table. they don't give a fig about this may 9th victory day celebration or whatever he's gunning for. they're already pressing a counteroffensive. in the kharkiv region, in the town of izyum, they're trying to cut off, encircle the russian presence there. again, we're all focused on what they're about to lose, mariupol. they're not waiting on that. mariupol has been beneficial from a strategic point to ukraine in the northeast because it's distracted the russians there where they can't mobilize their forces where the forthcoming battle is going to take place. >> these are some pictures you took. >> steph twitty, now an msnbc military analyst, we thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you so much, general. we greatly appreciate it. >> the "wall street journal" is reporting on the government's latest phase of the covid-19 pandemic. telling people to decide for themselves how best to protect against the virus. as the journal reports, health officials are leaving it up to people to assess if they need booster shots, whether to wear a mask, and how long to isolate after a positive test. businesses, schools, and other entities are scaling back specific guidelines as they prepare for a return to normal. >> richard, you have a quizzical look about you. >> for so many years the centers for disease control was on the short list of the most impressive institutions in this country, in or out of government. something seriously has gone wrong there. the fact that now we're not even issuing guidance. you and i, we're not experts. the government is basically throning its hands up. it's lost the confidence and the trust of the american people when it comes to issuing guidance on the biggest health challenge of our time. >> let me ask you, the numbers are down, obviously. they keep going down. the number of deaths are down, hospitalizations are down. infections are up, but again, it seems again we have built up as scott gottlieb said, a wall of immunity over the past couple years. we have vaccinations, we have booster shots. isn't this at a point where, my attitude is when i said, you know, let's make -- don't make the masks mandatory if you don't want to, and people said oh, my god, what about people who didn't get vaccinated? what about people who smoke? i'm at the stage now where resistance has built so high that if people decide not to get the vaccine, like half of the boston red sox, which is going to be a fun series in toronto, that's just their choice. we have done all we could do. not begging people not to smoke, and i'm not begging people to take a vaccine. and if they don't want to wear a mask on a plane, they're the ones that are going to have to figure out what to do in the hospital. >> that's a little different. >> no, that's not different. >> it is different. >> at this point, if you take a vaccine, if you take the booster, and if you have an underlying symptom, wear a mask. don't we know? we're equipped with the knowledge two years in. >> but on a plane or a train or a situation like that, you have to think about the people who work on the plane or a train. >> right. they'll still be masked up. by the way, think about how stupid this is, okay. you go to any nightclub in new york, i don't because mika and i go to sleep at 6:30 at night, but i their they're packed. there's not good ventilation in a lot of nightclubs, in restaurants, yet you have great ventilation on airplanes. >> the ukrainians were running speak easies. the last thing oin their mind is wearing a mask at this moment. >> if you want to wear a mask, wear an n-95 mask. >> i will. good if you're vaccinated -- >> i will too on a plane. but that's my choice. if richard doesn't want to wear a mask or michael doesn't want to wear a mask, at this point, that should be their choice. shouldn't it, richard? aren't we armed with enough information. and i'm going to say it for the idiots saying that's what i was saying two years ago. two years ago, we didn't have vaccines, we didn't have boosters. we didn't have the violent strain of covid. we didn't have the wall of immunity we have now two years later. >> we're in a much better situation, you're right. what makes me a little uneasy, it's a question of when, not if, we have some new virus. and we as a society, we as a world are not anywhere near where we need to be. >> so in china, businesses remain closed in the country's financial capital, shanghai. and experts are now warning of far reaching effects on the global supply chain. nbc news correspondent guad venegas has more. >> almost one month into shanghai's covid lockdown and residents are fed up. growing desperation as people run out of food and medicine. 25 million people confined to their homes. manufacturing grinding to a halt with little moving in and out of the largest container port in the world. >> any business that produces physical goods is being disrupted by what's happening in china. >> and growing fears it could have a ripple effect on the global supply chain. businesses around the world bracing for shortages with automotive and electronic suppliers already feeling the effects. tesla's gigafactory shut down. apple's chip supplier open at just 60% capacity. around the country, 45 chinese cities now under some type of lockdown. that's 40% of the world's second largest economy. >> this is the most serious logistical quagmire for china since the very early stages of the pandemic. >> feeling pressure, the government asking businesses to restart operations, many creating job site bubbles where workers sleep in offices for weeks. truck drivers subjected to daily testing stop at checkpoints for days. it's only a matter of time until china's lockdown causes issues here in the u.s., which would once again disrupt our supply chain. >> for consumers, we'll see delays. we'll see prices increase for some of these goods because of this logjam of goods that are not able to be produced or not able to get out of china. >> china's lockdown could lead to an unprecedented tsunami of cargo entering our country in the come months. it would look a lot like last fall, a major travel jam at our nation's ports. >> wow. you know, this all reminds me, the china model, how great the china model was. you know, and whether it's putin, whether it's xi, they look at the united states and things look really messy. right? we had a very messy run through covid. and still, you look at china that's trying to handle it the way totalitarian regimes handle it, and there's a divine providence that protects fools, drunkards, and the united states of america. we have a wall of immunity. china two years in struggling because they tried to handle it like a totalitarian government tries to handle everything, and it's a disaster. >> you know, messiness is resilience. we're not centrally organized so we can adapt. china is so centrally organized it's brittle. what we're seeing in china is the structural inability to self correct because the orders come from on high. nobody can question them. >> certainly, this is a moment where autocracies are struggling. china with covid. russia, of course, overreaching here in ukraine. the ukrainians, as a final thought, the ukrainians you have spoken to, how do they feel like, what will take them back to the table for negotiated settlement? is that even possible now? we have heard from zelenskyy saying he won't give up an inch of territory. >> he won't, and now they're talking about reclaiming territory they lost eight years ago. look, everybody wants some kind of peaceful resolution that's going to save civilian lives. but the ukrainians are hyperrealistic about what putin is, what he represents, and what he's ultimately out to do. every ukrainian i spoke to said we will fight because this is an existential struggle. this is not a war of choice or not one of our choosing. we're defending our homeland and our territory. we know if the west stops supplying us with weaponry, if we put down our arms and for a second take our eye off the ball or try to have some good faith dialogue with putin, he will create more buchas. >> and by the way, michael, you win our prize. rice-a-roni, the san francisco treat, because you mentioned one of richard haass' books. war of necessity, war of choice. >> i didn't even know i did that. >> congratulations. >> and to you, apparently. >> we were supposed to hand you the treat. >> still ahead on "morning joe" -- thank you, michael. barry mccaffrey joins us in our fourth hour to talk about russia's new offensive strategy. and what ukraine needs to defeat it. >> plus, we'll talk to a college student who is from ukraine and now half a world away from her family who are still living in kyiv. >> also ahead, we'll have a live report on why the irs is calling this tax season the most challenging it has ever had. >> and new york city mayor eric adams has been criticized for his handling of the city's homeless population. we'll be joined by a member of "the new york times" editorial board who says the mayor needs a little religious guidance on the issue. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ i came, i saw, i conquered. 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(sigh) on tonal. ♪♪ welcome back. we have been talking about russia's stepped up aggression in eastern europe. joining us nous, national security and intelligence reporter at foreign policy, amy mckinnon. her latest reporting is titled, the west finally starts rolling out the big guns for ukraine. and amy, just looking at your extensive reporting, a couple things you point out here is the deliveries going into ukraine right now reflect a shift from defensive systems like anti-tank rockets to more offensive systems. and checking off some boxes that the ukrainians have really been asking for. one senior u.s. defense official speaking on the condition of anonymity says that the pentagon plans are under way for ukrainian trainers are to travel into nato countries in eastern europe to be trained on how to use these new systems such as the howitzers and counterbattery radars. is a strategy falling into place? is it to wear out the russians, just to keep sending in things as they come, as needed so that the russians just can't ever get a hold in there? >> i think that's certainly the goal. what we have seen in recent weeks from ukraine's allies in the west and from the united states is a real ramping up in the types of military aid they have been willing to consider and willing to give to ukraine. in the past, there was always this hesitancy about giving offensive weaponry, heavy weaponry in case that would be seen as provocative by moscow, but we're seeing a change with heavy armory going from the united states, the first time that type of weapon has been sent over from ukraine. however, speaking to former ukrainian officials and what we're hearing from the ukrainian president, they fear this aid is not coming fast enough for the coming battle in the donbas, which is expected to be very decisive. i spoke to one former ukrainian defense official last week who likened the current supply of weapons going into the country as trying to put out a rager fire with one glass of water a time instead of a bucket. really what we're seeing is a race against time. ukraine is very dependent on western armaments for this coming battle. they're facing a very heavily armed aggressor in russia, and it's really going to be a mart of whether or not these political machinations in western capitals, how much aid they're willing to give and when is a race of time, and arming ukraine for the coming offensive. >> we know, talk about new phase of the conflict and russia's acts of terrorisms. one of president zelenskyy's asks of president biden is for the united states to recognize russia as a state sponsor of terrorism. right now, they're cuba, iran, north korea, and syria. that's a rough crew. tell us what that would mean if that were to happen. what are the implications for russia? >> there's pretty profound implications for russia if it were to be designated a state sponsor of terrorism. right now, i think going backic to our previous conversation, i think the focus of u.s. officials right now is not so much on this designation but it is in helping to support ukraine with armaments and also with intelligence that was -- there was reporting last week in the "wall street journal" that the u.s. is beginning to share more intelligence with ukraine to help it in this coming battle in the donbas. and going back to what richard said, i think this is what we're going to see now in the donbas, analysts predict is going to be a very decisive battle and a lot rests on how much russia is able to reconstitute its forces, its forces are very battered and bruised from the battles around kyiv, and whether they're able to piece together a fighting force, and in many ways, the ukrainian and russian arms forces mirror each other in terms of their capabilities. the ukrainians have very brave fighters who have experienced the fighting in the donbas in the past several years of war but they're short on armaments. the russians on the other hand are very well armed but what they're struggling with is troop losses. nato estimates they are estimate today have at least 40,000 troops who have been taken off the battlefield, killed, injured, captured or gone missing. the russian struggle is piecing together the fighting force. >> amy mckinnon, of foreign policy magazine, thank you so much for your extensive reporting. >> coming up, is the power center of the republican party in palm beach, florida? 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i saved 25%. booyah. and now you're relaxing! we're working from home. save up to 25% when you bundle home and auto with allstate. some people are saying i'm not healthy. i'm in very good health. i do wonderful with health, okay. healthy as a horse, like seabiscuit. i see biscuit and i eat biscuit. frankly, we're doing great things with biscuit and with bun and bread. we're doing crazy bread. little ceasars. i have known little ceasar, this is true, i told him to say pizza pizza. okay. he used to say it once. i said we should be saying it twice. we should say it twice. >> okay, i'm actually just going to walk away. you win. you can have easter. >> i would love to be bunny. i would be so good with bunny because i told america, covid would be over by easter. i just didn't say which one, okay. i didn't say which one. so say it with me, everyone. happy easter. and live from new york, it's saturday night. >> that -- >> he's so good. >> he's got it. the whole mind set train of thought, distracted, and also the big many big lies, but one about covid being done by easter, which everyone knee what was true. >> james austin, he has the best trump, the mannerisms, the intonations. pizza pizzi. so good. >> i know little ceasar. >> that's as good as it gets. >> front time of "the new york times," the mar-a-lago machine. trump as a modern day party boss, which is an interesting piece. >> oh, my gosh. >> he's sort of has his little evening gettogethers there, and people fight for his attention. >> there is a microphone, a podium that is set up at all times at mar-a-lago just in case he wants to address the crowd. which he does more nights than not. >> other nights -- and you know, if you're looking at your lower thirds and wondering what that like crabs in a bucket means, it's a line out of the story where one of trump's aides, one of trump's people, people will go there and just beg. they will just grab at him, trying to get his support, trying to get his endorsements. it's every bit as pathetic as the apprentice where people were crabs in a bucket wanting him to pick them up. there was a scene where he actually flew down all of the senate candidates in ohio, put them in a room while he was there, and just let them fight and scream and yell at each other just so he would give them the endorsement. of course, the one thing missing is -- >> ron desantis. >> no, ron is probably going to make him go to tallahassee if they're going to meet. the one thing that's missing is trump doesn't give a lot of money. he's throwing some into georgia, but usually it's an email, a $5,000 check, and he raises the millions and millions of dollars for himself. >> this is a dynamic that started soon after he left office, despite some speculation he would be on the outs in the republican party. his grip has only tightened. there are pilgrimages. people come to kiss the ring at mar-a-lago and beg for his endorsement. he has more on hand than the rnc. he's spent a little bit recently but not much. he's mostly keeping it, people believe, for his 2024 campaign. his word in republican primaries is still in almost state seen as being extremely important. he's had some misses along the way. there have been some defeats, but he dolled out endorsements including to dr. oz. so this is going to test his success rate. right now, there's no question. the power center of the republican party is in palm beach, florida. >> still ahead, last week's subway shooting is putting new york city crime once again in the spotlight. another big issue here is homelessness. a member of "the new york times" editorial page, mara gay, says mayor eric adams needs a little religion on the matter. she'll explain why next on "morning joe." this is remington. he's a member of the family, for sure. we always fed him kibble it just seemed like the thing to do. but he was getting picky, and we started noticing some allergy symptoms. we heard about the farmer's dog and it was a complete transformation. his allergies were going away and he just had amazing energy. it's a no-brainer that remi should have the best nutritious and delicious food possible. i'm investing in my dog's health and happiness. ♪♪ get started at longlivedogs.com when you join ihop's new rewards program, the international bank of pancakes, and start stacking pancoins toward free food, you get a smile on your plate. download the app and join the rewards program today. ♪("i've been everywhere" by johnny cash) ♪ ♪i've traveled every road in this here land!♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere, man.♪ ♪of travel i've had my share, man.♪ ♪i've been everywhere.♪ ♪♪ only two things are forever: love and liberty mutual customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. if anyone objects to this marriage... (emu squawks) kevin, no! not today. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ . this easter, i got the best news of all, new york. we got him. we got the shooter. sure, it took 30 hours and the suspect turned himself in, but we got him. case closed. subways fixed. ride without fear. and i'm not just holding a press conference about this, either. i'm throwing a parade, y'all. like we do with the yankees when the world series or when the mets finish a season. >> i love when the commissioner said, we got him. and you're thinking, yeah, he called from a pay phone. congratulations. >> joining us now, host of "politics nation," reverend al sharpton with us and member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara gay joins us. mara, your recent "new york times" op-ed is entitled "on homelessness, mayor eric adams needs a little religion" and in it, you write in part, for now, the most desperate scenes at the housing crisis are unfolding in public view. children are sleeping in crowded subway cars. people are battling mental illness and drug addiction outside new york's most iconic landmarks. and in its famous parks. mr. adams talks about street homelessness as though it were a moral failure and about the people experiencing it as though they were incapable of hearing him. that is not dignity. that is disgusting. since mr. adams brought it up, the christian thing would be to end homelessness instead of shuttling it out of sight. people experiencing homelessness are our neighbors, valuable members of this city who have the same human potential as anyone else. this is a problem a number of cities are facing. >> it's a problem not only in new york. it's a problem all over the country. and great op-ed. a challenging op-ed because i'm one of those who are like, all right, mr. mayor. great, let's take care of homelessness.great, let's take care of homelessness, but of course the christ-like thing is not as the rev and i have said, not to allow homelessness, but it's also not to sweep it to the side. so i guess the question is why can't the richest city in the richest country in the world build shelters and provide treatment that are suitable for our homeless? >> the answer is we actually can do that. it's -- we're choosing not to because our policies are essentially tailored toward simply moving these people out of the way rather than actually getting them the help that they need and want and deserve. and so, yes, this is a much more complicated population and the 45,000 people live in shelters in new york city and across the country, many of those folks are working and the rent is too high and they need help with housing. this population, who's out on the street, is about 5,000 give or take in new york city. they need really intensive mental health services, addiction services, social work, social workers to come and help them and meet them where they're at. we can do all those things and then the other key is to get them into transitional and then permanent shelter that is safe, clean, private, and has the kind of services they need. so we actually do know the things that work. and when we do those things, it does keep people off the street because there is a population that's even larger that is in permanent housing and is getting those services. so we know it works. but right now or policies are got gear toward helping them. it's just getting them out of our sight, and there's what's un-christian to me. >> and of course they'll come right back, rev. so first, values based, and we'll just say because maura's op-ed was written after going to a church service. but the christian thing to do, the christ-like thing to do, you actually believe the rev words and the gospels instead of, like, turning it into christian nationalism or something else that's not in the gospel? but if you read the rev's letters, this is exactly what jesus ordered christians to do, to give a cup of water, to feed the hungry, to house the homeless, to help the least of these among us. and so how do we do it? and why can't we do it in new york city? >> when i read the piece on easter sunday morning -- >> did you call eric? >> i changed my easter message. i mean, then i texted him because he's out on covid. i think something would resonate with him because he's church goer. when you look at the description where jesus said i was hungry, you didn't feed me, naked and you didn't clothe me outdoors and you didn't take me in, jesus u when swell celebrate this, get just get them out of my eyesight, that is as central as one can get. she drove that point home. i was getting ready to be ordained yesterday. if you can't do it in the richest city in the world, we are talking about the city of wall street, the city of the huge hedge fund guys, if you can't do it here, where are you going to do it? we ought to be setting the example here. i don't think it was an attack as much as a moral appeal to the mayor of let's be what you say we can be. because if we do all of the things that eric wants to do and all of us support him in doing, that and don't deal with the homeless problem and become the national model for that, then what we've done is for nothing. >> reverend al sharpton and maura gay, thank you both for being on this morning. coming up, what is driving the day on wall street? cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins was business before the bell. and a live report from the white house on president biden's week ahead. and retired general barry mccaffrey with how american weapons are impacting the war in ukraine. that's all ahead on this monday morning. we'll be right back. migraine attacks? you can't always avoid triggers like changes in weather. qulipta™ can help prevent migraine attacks. you can't prevent what's going on outside, that's why qulipta™ helps what's going on inside. qulipta™ is a pill. gets right to work to prevent migraine attacks and keeps them away over time. qulipta™ blocks cgrp a protein believed to be a cause of migraine attacks. qulipta™ is a preventive treatment for episodic migraine. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and tiredness. learn how abbvie can help you save on qulipta™. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance so you only pay for whatchya... line? 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>> we want everyone to come work for the irs tomorrow. >> reporter: the most critical need, tax examiners and clerks, entry-level positions, the irs even receiving special authority to bypass typical federal hiring rules and offer jobs on the spot like holding this job fair in austin to fill 1,000 open positions. debra says she got hired as a part-time clerk in a half an hour. >> probably the best job interview experience i've had. >> although the irs offers health insurance and vacation time, the competition for workers is fierce in this red-hot job market. these irs jobs start at