resources to seize voting machines. a bombshell new piece of reporting in "the new york times" cites multiple sources familiar with conversations inside the trump administration and the trump campaign that lays out just how the disgraced ex-president himself pushed to get federal agencies to do his bidding only to be rebuffed by allies of his own government by powers of the u.s. government to take voting machines and take them to trump's inner circle was a bridge too far. the times reports this, quote, president trump directed his lawyer, rudy giuliani, to make a remarkable call. trump wanted hem to ask the department of homeland security if it could legally take control of voting machines in key swing states. giuliani did so, calling the department's acting deputy secretary who said he lacked the authority to audit or impound the machines. trump pressed giuliani to make that inquiry after rejecting a separate effort to have the pentagon take control of the machines and the outreach to the department of homeland security came not too long after trump in an oval office meeting with ag barr raised the possibility of whether the justice department could seize the machines. an undisclosed suggestion that barr shot down. nbc news has not independently verified the report. giuliani's attorney is not commenting, but these stunning revelations about trump's own hands on role and proposals to seize voting machines to look for what he imagined was fraud that didn't exist well after his own cybersecurity chief was fired for saying so much that the 2020 election was the most secure in our country's history are now a major focus for the january 6 select committee as they pore through the hundreds of pages of white house records. some of which it turns out were ripped up. like torn apart and had to be pieced together. by officials. with tape. yeah. "washington post" reports this. national archives transmitted over 700 pages of documents to the january 6 committee last month that included records concerns the events of january 6, 2021, including those that were torn up and reconstructed. trump's habit of tearing up papers has been known for years, but the post reports that the documents now in the hands of the january 6 committee show that quote, the former president's shredding practices continued well into the latter stages of his presidency. this is despite the fact that the law requires every piece of paper. every memo, every note, every e-mail be preserve. the post adds this on the potential legal consequences for the ex-president on this front, quote, steven gillers, a new york university law professor and scholar said documents torn up by trump are clearly the property of the government. quote, so destroying them could be a crime under several statutes that make it a crime to destroy government property if that was the intent of the defendant. quote, a president does not own the records generated by his own administration. the definition of presidential records is broad. trump's own notes to himself could qualify and destroying them could be the criminal destruction of property. the committee grappling with the inner workings is where we start this hour. mike schmidt is here. he has one of the bylines on that extraordinary "new york times" reporting of trump's involvement in the attempt to seize voting machines. also an nbc national security contributor. jackie is here, "washington post" congressional correspondent who reporting we just lead from. also joining us, former republican congressman, david jolly. now the chairman of the serve america movement. also an msnbc contributor. and nbc legal analyst, joyce vance is here. mike, take us through what you and your colleagues are reporting today. >> i think the biggest takeaway and the reason we thought this story was so important is that it draws trump into these efforts in a new and more direct way. we've known for the past year about a range of different efforts that were undertaken by trump and his allies and republicans across the country to overturn the election. we know that in many of those instances, trump was you know, using his own sort of cajoling and calling and pushing and pressuring people. but what we think sets this apart is the consideration, the exploration of using the powers of the federal government. the three of the most powerful institutions not only in the country, but in the world. the department of defense, the department of homeland security, and the justice department exploring the use of them and you know, what could have been the implications if they did something here? you know, if this, if someone had said yes, what direction would that have sent the post election period and in the country and sort of hard to think. so that's why this stood out to us because it directly involves trump and it involves those institutions that make the united states such a remarkable world power that would have been used to keep or try and keep trump in office. >> mike, i want to show you something that just looks and sounds a lot different in light of the fact that trump had his hands all over not just the desire to seize voting machine, but operationalizing, reaching deep into dod and dhs to do so. this is mike flynn on december 17th. >> number one, president trump won on the 3rd of november. the things that he needs to do right now is he needs to appoint a special counsel immediately. he needs to seize all of these dominion and other voting machines that we have across the country. he could immediately on his order seize every single one of these machines around the county country. he could order the, within the swing states, if he wanted to, he could take military capabilities and place them in those states and basically rerun an election in those states. >> i remember seeing that and covering that and seeing some of your colleagues tweeting about flynn's influence at the time and there was this sense that that was the nut wing and that the nuts were sort of alongside the guardrails and what is revealed through your reporting and other revelations is that the nuts had trump's attention. he was forum shopping by this point and everything flynn describes ends up in the el including the special counsel. what is your sense in terms of how much we're uncovering was being run and green lit and directed by trump, mike? >> at the time flynn said that, my colleague, maggie haberman, reported on some of these meetings that were going on in the west wing. to not receive incredible amounts of attention because i think that the, what was being proposed was so farfetched. like who would have thought what you just laid out by mike flynn was you know, essentially being drafted in executive orders that could be given to the president of the united states. and the thing about trump and about what flynn does there is that they say it all out loud. basically just lays the entire thing out loud and what we were able to do was to show what was going on in private and the way that trump was entertaining these ideas, that that clip you just played is not just you know, highly unusual clip of mike flynn on far right television. that is a direct adviser to the president at the time. someone who was in the oval office with the president had the president's ear and was pitching him on ideas like that. the type of ideas that exist in countries where there are coups and there are not peaceful transfers of power. so that, when you look at that clip, that is a direct adviser at the time to the president of the united states providing his legal advice, too, about what the justice department could do. mike flynn, not a lawyer. >> joyce is a good reminder that lawyers should sometimes win the day when the arguments are legal and so i will ask this question differently on that note. but if you wanted to stitch together what mike just described happened in full view, the other half of the questions about a conspiracy seem to be what do the insurrections themselves think they were there to do. let me show you what stewart rhodes' attorney, jonathan mosley said rhodes thought he was there to do. >> one thing that rhodes was very public about is that he thought the, in terms of the previous story, that president trump would declare the insurrection act in terms of seizing the machines and things like that after the election. to find out what happened in the election. that was you know, a big part of what they had in mind there. stewart rhodes is going, we heard up there first, is going to appear before the committee tomorrow remotely. at which his new defense criminal attorney will require him to plead the fifth for most questions. so they're still looking into all that. >> so, joyce, mike flynn goes on tv. says we can seize the machines, we can appoint a special counsel. we can investigate and drafted giving the president until mid february. one of his lieutenants on the battlefield, if you will, didn't enter the capital, that he was present and around on january 6th, but there was a method to the madness. it wasn't random violence. it was because he thought, quote, trump would declare the insurrection act in seizing the machines after the election. everyone knew their part. how much more evidence is required for doj to open an investigation into this broader conspiracy involving mike flynn and donald trump and stewart rhodes? >> every time i hear that clip, the question i want to ask is why did stewart rhodes think that? did someone tell him that was the plan? was he communicating with folks close to the oval office and if so, who? that's the essential piece here. we're far past the point in time where doj should and i hope is engaged in a full on investigation into whether there was a conspiracy to interfere with the transfer of power. when you think about bill barr and what was going on at doj right after the election when barr took this very unusual step that provoked resignation and a lot of outcry announcing that doj would engage in investigation of that election in violation of a practice that says that doj doesn't interfere with elections and that's why barr knew and why he said before he resigned that there was no evidence of fraud. nothing that would justify seizing machines. so you can envision a conversation between barr and the former president that went something like this. to say we have proof that we believe crimes have been committed and this evidence is relevant. that's the only way we get a seizure warrant at doj. the reason that context is so important, it would show if it plays out this way, this is the committee's and doj's investigative job to see if this happened, but it would put trump in knowledge that this conduct was illegal. you cap that on to him stacking the deck at dod with people he put in place after the election and being rebuffed by every living former secretary of defense. then he asks giuliani to make that third one to dhs and we are clearly in conspiracy territory then. >> mike, there's reporting along the lines of what joyce is describing. the meeting with barr took place in mid to late november when trump raised the idea of whether the justice department could be used to seize machines. that's according to two people familiar with the matter. trump told barr his lawyers had told them that the department had the power to seize machines as evidence of fraud. barr, who had been briefed by federal law enforcement officials about how the theories being pushed by trump's legal team about the machines were unfounded, told trump that the justice department had no basis for seizing the machines because there was no probable cause to believe a crime had been committed. just what joyce has described. what moves the ball forward here in our understanding of barr's role in the days before he leaves the trump administration? >> i think it's just more of an example of the enormous guardrail that bill barr became in the final weeks of the presidency. and there's a lot of you know, folks on the left who have no time for bill barr and were obviously very outraged by how he handled the mueller report, but as the presidency went on in 2020, barr was someone who was willing to stand up to trump and willing to tell him the things he didn't want to hear. and bar barr's ability, the loosening of the justice department's investigative abilities allowed him to go out and look at these different accusations that were being made by trump and come back and say there is nothing to any of this. and there's nothing to any of it and it's all a bunch of nonsense. barr told that to trump over and over until trump looked for other advisers like powell and flynn and waldrun to help guide him through the final six weeks of his presidency. and barr, sensing what was going on, leaving, you know, before christmas, so essentially, you know in opening the justice department up to more efforts by trump to interfere. so you know, a turn in the barr story where barr was a huge guardrail against the president and willing to speak up to him. you know, which stands in contrast to earlier in the administration when he was seen as someone far more you know, of an enabler or someone in trump's corner. >> why did he leave, mike? if he was such an important guardrail? >> i don't know, but i do think that we've seen from barr that he is an incredible ability, political sense and he probably had a pretty good sense of where this was going and probably didn't want to be there. now my, i assume people could criticize him for not staying around to do that, but i think barr had a sense of where this was going and some people criticized him for not staying and continuing to say no to trump and getting fired, but he left. >> what do you think of all of it? the, you know, trump is a through line. i've always sort of been bewildered by the construct of the committee has to tie trump to it. trump's the only thing that connects everybody. the only one shouting out, stand by, stand back. he's the only one with his hands all over, you know barr, until he gets guardraily then jeffrey clark. he's the only one talking to everyone. he is the only one saying it all out loud from debate stages. he's the only through line. what questions remain in your mind? >> it's easy to accept now five or six years in donald trump's malfeasance and unconstitutional behave as somehow the new normal, but nicolle, i really mean this. i think we're in a very dangerous moments an you can take his speeches and words from the last several days and we have to recognize politically that donald trump, who is currently the front-runner for the republican nomination for president in 2024, if he had been successful implementing a plan to seize ballot boxes, to have substitute electors considered by the congress, to have mike pence interfere with a dually elected president-elect at the time, joe biden, had he been successful, donald trump would have ended this remarkable success the united states has had as a constitutional republic for over 200 years. you can go back to the founders and see they warned about this. they warned about leaders who would engage in the vicious arts that worked against the interests of the people to try to keep power. to create a complex, wide reaching republic with separation of powers that could prevent these men from succeeding and toppling the democracy. i would say at the time though, we also had a public, voting public, that accepted the outrage and accepted their responsibility to reject this type of behavior. the reason we're in a dangerous moment now is now you have a body of politics that is willing to normalize this type of behavior that could have ended our performance as a constitutional republic. it's a dangerous moment. it's easy to accept this as the new normal, but this could have ended the republic that we knew and have known for over 200 years. >> jackie, i want to pull you on. mike's right about the role that bill barr played, but frankly in the story, giuliani served as a bit of a guardrail between trump and the pentagon. and one way to look at it is, the other is that's how bad trump was. he was so bad and so over every red line that giuliani and barr were on the other side of it. what do you make of this sort of revelation that it wasn't powell and flynn pulling trump somewhere he didn't want to go. it was trump finally landing with people who saw this conspiracy to overthrow the result the way he did. >> yeah. i don't know if we can go so far as to call giuliani a guardrail or rather view it as a lack of competence and actually executing such a farfetched plan. but there are -- kudos on such a fantastic story, mike. it is very telling that at the end of the day, it comes back to what the president wanted and the people he was instructing to actually execute these spaghetti on the wall conspiracy theories and plans. i think what this plan also shows in part was the desperation at this point that people were throwing anything and everything at the former president at the time to appease him and he was really going for it. >> he sure was. on that note, everyone sticks around. when we come back, more on this reporting including what the committee has its hands on. some trump white house records that are physically ripped to shreds and then taped together again. these are donald trump's white house papers. plus, black history month kicks off today and it's feeling very different for a lot of americans this year as republican states put new restrictions on teaching our country's history and adding to that, a record number of books being pulled from school library shelves. later in the program, there's a tremendous amount of accounts from the january 6 committee today to sift through, helping to put together the most robust picture of what led to the attack on the capitol on january 6th. committee member elaine loria on what they're learning at this hour. those stories and more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. stay with us. white house contis after a quick break. after a quick break. stay with user, we can harness the energy of the tiny electron. we can create new ways to connect. rethinking how we communicate to be more isive than ever. with app, cloud and anywhere workspace solutions, vmware helps companies navigate change. faster. vmware. welcome change. well, well, well. look at you. you mastered the master bath. you created your own style. and you - yes, you! turned a sourdough starter into a sourdough finisher. so when you learn your chronic dry eye is actually caused by reduced tear production due to inflammation you take it on, by talking to your eyecare professional about restasis®... which may help you make more of your own tears 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the country. here they were talking about seizing voting machines from the states. the party that refuses to pass a voting rights act is content to go along with a president who is willing to deploy the department of homeland security or defense or department of justice to take voting machines away from the state governments. it's extraordinary. >> that was january 6 committee member, jamie raskin, on the mission of the probe and the need for full accounting of the insurrection. now that gob smacking piece of reporting in "the washington post" today that the committee receiving trump white house records that were ripped up and had to be taped back together with scotch tape. we're back with mike, jackie, david, and joyce. jackie, tell us about your reporting. >> what initially seemed like an odd and bizarre habit from the former president first reported in 2018 continued well into 2020 and even into the potentially 2021 according to our new reporting that the former president and potentially some of the people around him, were illegally shredding and ripping up the documents that were supposed to be preserved under the presidential records act. the national archives received many of these documents. they confirmed that to us yesterday in a statement. they also said they received documents that not only had been ripped up and taped back together by a recording management analyst that works for the archives, but documents that were so shredded that they actually were not reconstructed. we also know that the committee has received some of these documents after a lawsuit in the supreme court ruled that they were able to get access to them. there was a trench, we've got 700 pages. we don't know which in the group of records were destroyed and who actually did the destroying, but again, it mirrors a habit of the former president that his staff and those around him were well aware of. but if we are looking at what the documents were and what the former president sought privilege over in reviews of some of these records, we have a little bit of a sense of what these might have been, including pages of presidential diaries, schedules, drafts of speeches, handwritten notes concerning the events of january 6th from mark meadows. more than 600 pages containing proposed talking points for the press secretary along with handwritten notes from pat philbin, a lawyer in the white house counsel's office. so there is a broad range of documents that were either intentionally destroyed and then retrieved in some fashion or you know, again, just destroyed habitually by the former president. potentially illegal. >> david jolly, the president benefits from the fact that his most egregious conduct makes the presidential records act sound silly. i think there are a lot of people out there who think holding him accountable that would have sent someone like me if i violated the act, to understand how much it includes every e-mail i typed, if you were in town and we were going to have lunch and i sent you an e-mail, it would have been bcc to records at who or eop.gov. every e-mail i send and receive and the idea that it was violated well beyond internal e-mails. well beyond anything sort of mundane like me e-mailing you to ask you to go to lunch, but presidential speeches, notes from the chief of staff. these are in the real world, on planet earth, a huge deal and potentially things normal people get in a lot of trouble for. >> it's a big deal for posterity in a normal environment. it's a big deal for necessary investigations where there are questions of impropriety and illegality. i think this confirms something we know. donald trump's never met a law he's been unwilling to break. so laws are kind of meaningless to trump. donald trump tries to shape the law to his own behavior and to to do his will as he may. nicolle, this is very real reporting by jackie. i actually had the opportunity a year or two ago to speak with the person who for the first year of trump's administration was responsible for removing the papers from the oval and he would describe how they would be shredded up and this young staffer didn't know what to do with that and had to seek guidance. what is the responsibility here if a president has torn up official records? the warning to us goes back to the previous topic, which is donald trump is someone who's willing to break laws big and small. who's willing to break the constitutional restrictions on his pallor, both in big ways and small ways and somebody who is willing to engage in that will do anything to keep power. that is the threat for 2024. not just for investigations looking backwards. but for how we perform as a country politically going forward. >> joyce, is there any scenario where right now, we're talking about it in the context of the presidential records act, but should he become the subject of an investigation, it could be examined as potentially destroying evidence? >> i think that's the real question here. whether this is obstruction of justice. you know, the records act violation can be severe. the stat sheet is a little bit convoluted. but the reporting says that at least since 2018 this was his practice to tear things up and i don't know. i suspect if it was you or me, somebody we work with would have said you know, boss, you can't tear that stuff up. it's got to be recorded permanently as records of the united states and so he would have been aware that what he was doing was wrong. if this crosses over into documents that were sensitive. documents involving visits or some of these conversations we talked about, you know, in the a block, where you've got folks coming in and floating these likely unconstitutional sorts of strategies for holding on to power and then the president himself is ripping these documents up and it's, there's an argument under these sorts of statutes that if you can rip it up and tape it back together, they're not really destroy, but when you have documents that can't be read, that are forever destroyed so they can't be captured, you really are possibly veering into criminal territory. if nothing else, these are acts being committed in furtherance of a conspiracy. worst case, they could be stand alone crimes. >> mike, i asked joyce about what doj might do with comments from an attorney from stewart rhodes saying that his public statements thought trump would seize the voting machines and things like that and it's very opaque to most people what if anything doj would do. what is your sense of how the 1/6 committee is examining comments like that or comments from mr. rhodes or any of the extremist groups themselves in terms of what they understood their function to be. whether they were cogs in a wheel, part of a larger plan or free agents. is that what the committee is trying the glean? >> i think one of the biggest questions for the committee is was january 6th one big, large conspiracy or a bunch of smaller conspiracies or a bunch of smaller conspiracies that fit together into another one. were the militias and the folks on the far right, were they just undertaking -- sorry, we've got a puppy issue here. undertaking, you know, efforts to protest and to riot or were they doing it at the behest of someone? at the coordination of someone? for example, when trump says on the ellipse that the comments he makes about marching down to the capitol and stuff like that. was that stuff that was coordinated? did the speech writer put it in that? some of the documents that have been handed over by the white house would reveal that because they would show what the original speech was and the committee now has that. >> mike, jackie, david, joyce, i think at least three of the four of you are juggling dogs in the background. thank you all for spending so much time with us today. there is new reporting on the pressure school libraries are under to pull books that might draw complaints from the likes of parents, activists and politics. it is a trend in communities all across the country posing real challenges for teachers. that conversation, next. for te. that conversation, next. ey there! i'm just reading wayfair reviews like it's my job. i love seeing people loving their home. my daughter and i never agree on anything. that's not true! but we did agree this rug was perfect. okay. stop being weird. mom and daughter agreeing on something. wayfair works miracles! ooh! check this one out. this chair is so comfortable. it puts both of my babies to sleep. look at you making a space that works perfectly for all of you! i could use a good nap. throughout history i've observed markets shaped by the intentional and unforeseeable. for investors who can navigate this landscape, leveraging gold, a strategic and sustainable asset... the path is gilded with the potential for rich returns. 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[ chuckles ] well, he may have friends, but he rides alone. that's jeremy, right there! we're literally riding together. he gets touchy when you talk about his lack of friends. can you help me out here? no matter why you ride, progressive has you covered with protection starting at $79 a year. well, we're new friends. to be fair. eh, still. supposed to be for most of us a celebration. a collective opportunity to pause, to recognize, to rejoice in the valuable contributions made by pioneering black americans. sometimes despite extraordinary hurdles over the past centuries. harriet tubman, ruby bridges, nipsy hustle and hundreds of thousands more. the month of february offers at a minimum, an annual opportunity to stop and learn about some amazing human beings who accomplished so much as we said under the most desire, difficult, and at times, inhumane circumstances in a lot of instances. this year's different. everything's different, right? this black history month, there is a concerted effort nationwide to erase that final context. to intentionally ignore those challenges, the sometimes harsh circumstances through which they persevered. some of what makes them so extraordinary. what conservatives call a war with critical race theory is in practice, really just an effort to avoid teaching students the uglier part of that. the uglier aspects of our national identity. an education week analysis found this, quote, since january 2021, 36 states have introduced bills or taken other steps that would restrict teaching critical race theory or limit how teachers can discuss racism of sexism. 14 states have imposed them. those restrictions manifesting in a nearly unprecedented nationwide crusade so ban books. from that point, new data looking just at texas reveals this, quote, records request to nearly 100 school districts in the houston dallas san antonio and austin regions. a small sampling of that state's 1250 public school systems revealed 75 formal requests by parents or community members to ban books from libraries during the first four months in the school year. in comparison, only one library book challenge was filed with those districts during the same time period one year ago. records show. a handful of the districts reported more challenges this year than in the past two decades combined. let's bring in msnbc legal analyst, maya wily and former u.s. assistant attorney,. so this is a political movement that has now swept into the classroom and i wonder, i wonder what we do about it. >> you know, well i have lots of thoughts about what we do about it, including get organized because as we know, it's black history month. the frankly black history month has been under attack for a while. the 1619 project, "the new york times" that intended to create both more understanding and education and more of a dialogue on the history from black slavery through the black experience and the continued issues of why we have disparities in communities of color, in black communities, that all of that was also helping to galvanize a politically organized attack against this very conversation that's central to democracy, which is understanding our history. understanding how we're all experiencing our country and our communities and how we actually solve the problems we have to solve. but we only do that when we are able to cross the boundaries of segregated community. when we're able to cross the boundaries of race. when we're able to cross the boundaries of ideology to have these discussions in a frank, factual way that also focuses on the problems we need to solve and that doesn't happen when you have historically black colleges and universities getting bomb threats, which we've also seen. that this, this attack on quote unquote critical race theory, which is you point out is an attack on black history, is fundamentally about how we educate ourselves. that means making sure books are accessible. one of the things in the nbc story that was so important was for a young woman who was in the closet and a lesbian going to the library to find books that helped her work through her own issues of identity and experience and sexuality and there have to be safe spaces like that for kids across the country, but also in a context where they have someone to talk to and some dialogue and where we're forcing this conversation because there always has to be some lawsuits against any laws that are book banning and there has to be a defense fund for any teachers or librarians who are frankly may, the odds we're seeing in some of these conversations, face criminal charges, which would be obscene, but we have to be prepared for all of that because that's the country we're in right now. a deeply divided one. >> i want to just things that defy logic out there. if you took every human who's trying to ban books and monitored how closely they monitor their kids screen time, i'm sure there's stuff sneaking through that no librarian would ever let them see. so the audacity of the mind control of a kid is that's it's unachievable. i'm sure there are parents better than me with no ipads, to them, god bless, but you cannot control everything a child consumes. so the banning book movement seems wholly political. i want to explain how it happens. this is in ax ios. the limits would allow teachers to mention that jackie robinson broke major legal baseball's color line, but not allow them to discuss why black players were banned beforehand. founder and ceo of the center for black educator development said teechlers may introduce malcolm x, but not read his speeches. they can mention marvin gaye, but not discuss what the lyrics are or point out florida or tulsa, oklahoma on maps. talk about the racial atrocities that occurred there. if you've ever read about jackie robinson with a kid, the first thing they want to understand are the negro leagues and the only way you can understand there's progress, that we're going in the right direction in some of these spaces is to teach the history. i am confounded as to what the end game is here. >> yeah. well these are proxy wars, right? these are the small steps that are part of a larger war against a certain, against inclusion. inclusivity. and it's important to zoom out here because schools have historically been centers of cultural, political, moral reproduction. what that means is that throughout our entire history or before and since public schools have been organized in this country, they've been used toward this, the purpose of nation building. they've been used for the purpose of creating a narrative about the country and the people that are in it so that when you have some white americans who say you know, we don't want to teach this kind of history, we don't want these kinds of books, they're trying to preserve the homogenaity of their narrative. of course that is completely problematic and even more so, it may be criminal. hopefully it is in certain instances, but also it does not reflect what the american ideal is supposed to be, but we clearly know how much goes on here that we, that doesn't reflect that the ideology. and so the concern is and maya's right, that organizing is critical here because there are over 14,000 school districts in this country and so the ability to have a national fight and pushback against this becomes really difficult. you have some areas that are mayoral controlled. there are other areas that have elected school boards so in all of these different districts, we have to find a way to organize to push all of this back, but sadly, as my friend dr. robert harvey who writes about abolitionists, write about a hush harper. which is a term about slavery. when you have features outside of their classrooms in environments where they can have conversations away from principals and other authority figures to figure out are they going to circumvent all of these bans to be able to get the information to their kids in the way that they feel they should. we're asking teachers to do so much more than they should just to be able to teach american history and that's what's so sad about these bans and about the conversation, but it's a fight that has to be fought. so many levels of government at across the country. at the same time. >> it's just so startling to think that meeting the other side in the middle would inherently mean that kids are exposed to less because they're so extreme in terms of what they want banned. we're going to ask you to stick around through a quick break. much more on the other side. stay with us. ak much more on the other side. stay with us i brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! 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(excited yell) woo-hoo! ensure max protein. with thirty grams of protein, one gram of sugar, and nutrients to support immune health. wondering what actually goes into your multivitamin? o at new chapter,, its' innovation, organic ingredients, and fermentation. fermentation? yes. formulated to help you body really truly absorb the natural goodness. new chapter. wellness, well done. people with moderate to severe psoriasis, or psoriatic arthritis, are rethinking the choices they make like the splash they create the way they exaggerate the surprises they initiate. otezla. it's a choice you can make. otezla is not an injection or a cream it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable, with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. it may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression. tell your doctor if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts or if these feelings develop. some people taking otezla reported weight loss. your doctor should monitor your weight and may stop treatment. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. tell your doctor about your medicines and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. thanks to realtor.com's home alerts we were able to see the newest homes on the market, super fast. so we could finally buy our first "big boi house." big boi house. big boi kitchen! big boi waterfall shower! big boi crawl space. big boi sold sign, big boi logo. realtor.com to each their home. what they are doing isn't solving the underlying problem. the underlying problem is that students aren't feeling safe at school. they aren't feeling comfortable at school. and when a student doesn't feel safe or comfortable, they can't learn, and that's when the grades start dropping. and that's why a lot of times, kids have higher suicidal rates, because they don't feel loved. they don't feel safe in their schools. >> florida high school sophomore kaylee sandall speaking some difficult truths, maybe, to all the grown-ups around and the potential impact of another controversial bill in that state. critics call it the "don't say gay" bill because it would prohibit teachers from talking about -- think about that -- from talking about lgbtq issues. we're back with maya and basil. she's smart to put all those data points together for anyone who doesn't stare them in the face and stay up at night despairing about them, but young girls attempting suicide, the numbers are up, i think, 50% to 60%. boys, less than that. but anxiety and despair among our kids are running parallel to everything that all the grown-ups are fighting about, and it just seems like compounding that is this highly politicized fight over what is available on a bookshelf, maya. >> yeah, that was so -- it's so heartbreaking and sadly true. and i want to say two things about this. one, you know, i was in high school getting in my elite white high school, getting essentially two pages of the civil rights movement in my history textbook. the way i learned that history was at home and by reading on my own. now, that's just wrong for anybody. right? and every kid should have the opportunity in school to explore the world, how it got that way, but also who they are in it, because when kids are in school, it's also a part of their process of deciding who they are in the world. but the second thing i want to say is, if we really get underneath what this fight is about and, you know, basil's talking about this, it is fundamentally about the fact that the demographics of the country is changing. so, the reason texas is like ground zero for this fight, it's not the only place we're having this fight, but the reason it's ground zero is because in 1970, it was almost 87% white. and in 2020, it was 50% white. and now that that means that the diversification of the state is creating anxiety, both politically for a republican party that has chosen to redraw district lines, make it harder for all the votes to count and get voiced representation from that state, is also the one waging a war on whether or not there is a recognition and acknowledgment about kids who are black, about kids who are latino, about kids who may be the children of immigrants, about kids who are lesbian or transgender because sexuality is also threatening folks but it is all because we're becoming more diverse and demography is not destiny and if we want to save democracy, it's because we figure out how this is about all of us and we actually start solving the problems we have and not problems we create. >> basil, last word. >> well, i'll just say, sticking with texas, it was lbj who was from texas and under great society, we saw this explosion of inclusive learning and programs targeted to the poor like title i and head start and he got that inspiration because he taught a lot of mexican children at a little schoolhouse in texas. so, it can be done if you have people who actually have the right mind, the right mindset, and are really understanding of the importance of diversity in our country. and the final word is just a shoutout to all the teachers, including my mom, who taught special ed for almost 30 years in the new york city public school system, because they do extraordinary work under incredibly difficult circumstances and under all of this will have to find a way to still teach kids everything they need to know to go out and be productive in this world. so, shoutout to all the teachers. >> yeah, and we'll have this conversation. we'll pick this up. we'll do this regularly, not just this month, but having to navigate these rapidly changing and incredibly hostile political waters that are sort of straight out of the salinger scene from "field of dreams." maya wiley, basil smikle, thank you so much. the next hour of "deadline white house" starts after a very short break. r of "deadline white house" starts afr tea very short break. who's on it with jardiance? 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"the new york times" provides this context as though why short and jacob are such important witnesses. quote, mr. short and mr. jacob were both closely involved in mr. pence's consideration of whether to go along with trump's insistence that he try to block the official count of electoral college results by a joint session of congress. three days before the proceeding, the two men met with john eastman, a lawyer then advising trump, about a memo mr. eastman had written, setting out a case for why pence had the power to hold off the certification. developments in the 1/6 committee's investigation as they hear from former pence aides is where we start this hour with one of the members of that committee. joining us now is congresswoman elaine of virginia. thank you for spending time with us at what is clearly a busy time for the committee. i wonder if there was anything you can say about the importance of the investigation into specifically the pressure placed on mike pence, publicly as we showed there, but also behind closed doors, say, in the oval office. >> well, you know, the clip you showed earlier did show the immense pressure that was made by trump at rallies. it was made through tweets. that pressure was applied, obviously, in a way that had people show up prepared to build a gallows with a noose if the vice president didn't follow through with this crazy big lie and this idea that he could change the outcome of the election. so really understanding what that pressure was, what plans were in place and what pressure was applied on the former vice president, so an opportunity to speak to anyone who was close to him, to work directly with him and had communications with him up to and on january 6th is just really important to the committee's work. >> and by looking at the way mark meadows was treated after turning over 9,000 documents, refusing to comply with the subpoena, resulted in a referral for contempt, is it safe to assume that mr. jacob and mr. short are cooperating and responsive witnesses at this point? >> well, you know, as all witnesses with the committee, we're not commenting directly on who has or hasn't spoken to the committee or what they've said, but i would certainly say that those are people, based off their position close to the former vice president, who would have very important information for the work that we're doing and i would say that we're hearing from many, many of those people. we heard from 475 witnesses at this point. about 60,000 documents. and in many of these people, they're approaching the committee voluntarily, if requested to testify, they are doing that and sharing really valuable information so the folks you mentioned like meadows, bannon, those people are outliers, and their obstruction, you know, is obviously not in line with their constitutional duty to apply -- to appear for a subpoena, and the work of the committee is really going on with a lot of valuable information from people in the former administration. >> a lawyer for stewart rhodes was on cnn today talking about his client's belief that the president had a plan to invoke the insurrection act and seize voting machines. there's obviously some pretty stunning reporting in "the new york times" about donald trump's hands-on role not just in the desire but the sort of operationalizing that, reaching into d.o.d. to see if they would do it at flynn's suggestion, having rudy giuliani reach into dhs and going straight to bill barr himself about doj. how much is the committee now focused on trump's role inside sort of pulling the levers of power in terms of trying to overturn that result of joe biden's win in 2020? >> that's a key focus that we have had all along, but in new information that's surfacing daily and nicole, i would say this is just the beginning, what you're talking about now. i think that there's a lot more that we're going to be seeing. it's really critical to, you know, was this a plan to undermine the election results, to pressure mike pence, as we saw in the video earlier, like, how did all these pieces fit together? and to what extent was the former president or those people surrounding him involved in orchestrating and hatching this plan? so that is the work of the committee is to get all of those facts, all of those details and really understand the events of the day and moreover, to really prevent something like this from happening in the future. so, i think understanding kind of all of those vulnerabilities and the system and the process and, you know, ways that maybe people tried to corrupt different branches or tools within the government is really important to the committee because that's the way we're going to be able to formulate the legislation and recommendations that could prevent this in the future. >> for a committee whose objective is to make sure that the transfer of power isn't just peaceful but incorruptible, how important is it to talk to some of your own colleagues about their role in trying to do just that, corrupt free and fair election and overturn the result? >> you know, i think that's incredibly important, as you've seen. we have sent requests to several current members of the house and i'd anticipate that there's others who we'll be looking to hear from because i think they have valuable information. there's those who we know publicly spoke and made vocal statements in support of the big lie at the rally before and on january 6th so there's a lot of, you know, people and pieces of information that are still, you know, very valuable and we're seeking in the committee. >> did you view donald trump's admission that mike pence could have and should have overturned the result of the election as a confession of sorts? >> well, i guess there's two ways to look at that. speaking from a personal perspective, as an individual hearing that, a member of the american public, i would say, like, he's telling us what he did. he's been telling us all along what he did but the purpose of this committee is not to find and identify guilt or criminal activity, and you know, i want to be sort of really clear and differentiating the role of the department of justice and anything they're doing, pursuing people who had criminal acts on january 6th. the select committee, our goal is to, you know, determine the events that happened leading to and on that day and provide legislative recommendations and to really ensure that our government is strong and something like that can't ultimately succeed if someone were to attempt it in the future. >> i see certainly sounds like he would attempt to do in the future. congresswoman elaine luria, thank you very much for starting us off today and making time for us. we're grateful. joining our coverage, nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake, also sam stein, msnbc contributor and the former republican, the former republican strategist, steve schmidt is here. garrett, you talked to liz cheney today. tell us about it. >> well, i interviewed liz cheney and every question i asked her, she kept coming back to the same point that she wanted to make over and over again, which is, he would do it again. i thought it was interesting that's how your interview with congresswoman luria concluded too because i think cheney has been looking a step ahead in this process the whole time and it's not so much when you interview her that she's thinking about the details of what happened in the lead-up to january 6th and on that day so much as the fact that she believes, clearly, that donald trump remains a danger to behave in this way again, whether as a candidate, a nominee, or a future president. she also made it clear that she does not want this to be what republicans stand for. she's having both her role at kind of the tip of the spear here for the committee and a whole separate battle she's fighting almost entirely alone for what her party stands for and i think that's why we heard her keep coming back to these same key points about, he's going to keep doing this unless we, in that case, meaning the committee and republicans, decide it's not acceptable to us. >> garrett, i believe we need to throw to her sound. let me throw to your interview. >> look, we are very focused at the select committee on a whole range of potential legislative proposals. i think it's very important, though, for the american people to recognize and understand what we know and what the president, the former president himself is saying about his intentions, what his intentions clearly were a year ago on january 6th and what he would do again if he ever got anywhere close to power. and that just simply can't be who we are as americans. it can't be who we are as republicans. >> there it is. >> there you hear it. sorry for the confusion on the tape. >> no, you were being a humble reporter and not showing your interview, but i asked this question yesterday. i mean, liz cheney has invoked the language of recidivism and it seems to have sort of two purposes and i wonder your thoughts on this. one, to see if there were more than just one wing person for her in the republican party, if she can awake any other republicans from their stupor. to understand that this is a clear and present danger for 2024, not just about looking back, and to gird, perhaps, some of her fellow committee members on the other side of the aisle for what could become some pretty tough political fights in the months ahead. >> well, i think the latter is certainly true. i mean, she knows the political costs of the work they are doing better than anyone. she's locked in this very competitive primary in wyoming, although her office has been bragging about the stacks of money she's been raising in that fight. it's -- her primary in wyoming is the most important primary race in the country this year, and maybe in any, you know, recent midterm election that i can think of as a single race, right? i mean, she has determined that she has to make this fight for the future of the republican party. there's no other place in which it's that clear. she's got a trump-endorsed opponent. she is a target of the former president day after day after day so she's willing to have that battle and i think the warning part to the committee is a very good point. as to waking up fellow republicans, i don't have -- i don't have good news for you on that topic. i mean, you know, talking to republican senators over the last couple days, since the former president's comments at that rally, like, there's not a sudden awareness that, oh my god, this is still a problem. i didn't realize he talked this way. i mean, this is baked in with the republican party that's here right now, and i got to tell you, when you look at the candidates who are running for office, a lot of house seats, some senate seats out here, the next batch coming up feels even more strongly in trump's corner about a lot of these issues. i don't see that break coming. >> well, and steve, i think it's time to start looking, right? it's not to be found. but i think what liz cheney is doing is defining them. they will be anti-democratic republican senators. they will be anti-free and fair election republican senators and they will be part of what liz cheney clearly sees as a threat. she sees trumpism as a threat to our security and a threat to our democracy. >> i think that what liz cheney sees above all else is that this is an ongoing, unfolding plot and conspiracy against democracy in the united states of america. and that what we have seen from the republican party, from its leadership, is profound, profound cowardice in facing it. there's no mystery about how everybody's going to line up in elected office in washington, d.c. i think the arguments that liz cheney is making, the arguments that she's making, come from the perspective of an impeccable conservative who is communicating that being an impeccable conservative and being pro-democracy are not antithetical virtues. and so, we're at a moment of crisis. she's been one of the loudest, most consistent voices, talking about the threat the country faces, but at this point, even the most naive amongst us can't be unclear about the stated intentions of donald trump and all of those who support him or are in league with him or hope to replace him some day with regard to their faithfulness to the idea of american democracy, to american pluralism, to the notion that we should all be equal under the law. >> and sam, there is something of a moving of the goal post that happens on the right, and i think lindsey graham and kevin mccarthy are the best examples of it, but susan collins did it as well. how bad is it? it's really bad. what are you going to do about it? in susan collins's case, going to vote to impeach the guy. really bad. what are you going to do in 2024? well, i hope not to have to vote for him but i don't know, i can't rule it out. i mean, what the republicans have done is they've not gone on the record as being against the anti-democratic impulses in their own party, and i think just to piggyback on steve's point, i think that, to liz cheney, is as big of a threat as anything that comes out of donald trump's mouth. >> yeah. i mean, there's something, you know, discordant about voting to impeach someone and then simultaneously saying you could entertain the idea of him being president down the road. and to garrett's point, i think what's happening here is you have a wave of future generational republicans who are totally fine with the conduct of trump. in fact, embrace a lot of the lies that he has told about the election and are not just running for congressional office but are running for the offices that control the mechanism. >> we've lost sam stein. we're going to work on his connection. garrett, i think the point sam was making, some great reporting in politico, and nbc has had some of that too, but it is moving into elected office, putting behind the wheel of the levers of power, not just in the building you cover, which is important, but no offense, sometimes more importantly in the context of an election are the election officials and that there has been such a successful -- it's hard to call it successful because it's so malevolent and dangerous, but such a successful effort to move election deniers into positions of power. liz cheney can't do everything. do you sense any momentum behind a democratic counterpush? >> reporter: well, look, i'll say this. there is this debate that's going on up here on the electoral count act, at least that's how it started, the mechanism, why january 6th happened in the first place, the challenges to election results made by lawmakers, the ceremonial role of the vice president. they started with this very narrow discussion of a bipartisan group about how to bulletproof that process so we couldn't see something like what happened on january 6th happened again and as the discussion group of senators has grown, so too has the scope of the reforms they're trying to make of how can we protect this process further out? how can we protect it at the state level? how can we maybe protect it even further as we kind of trickle down? now, i don't want to oversell the likelihood that something like that could ultimately get to 60 votes depending on how ambitious lawmakers get, but i think after the defeat of democrats' bigger, broader voting rights push, a lot of the same architects of that effort said, okay, what can pass? what's the most stripped-down thing we can do to protect the pipes, the machines, the infrastructure of elections? and those discussions are happening in realtime right now on the senate side. >> i don't dare hope, as i've said. hope is a gateway to despair but i will keep following it. i'm going to ask all three of you to stick around, garrett, sam, and steve, we'll be back on the other side of the break. new efforts by top allies of the ex-president to expel the republican party's couple remaining truth tellers. we'll get to that story. plus, russian president vladimir putin breaks his silence, insisting that the united states and not russia is pushing war even as russia builds an invasion force along the border with ukraine. lieutenant colonel alexander vindman and ambassador michael mcfaul will be back to weigh in on that. later in the show, a breakthrough for the final group of americans who hadn't yet been able to get vaccinated against covid. why vaccines for kids under 5 might be just a couple weeks away. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. 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freestylelibre.us ♪ i see trees of green ♪ ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom ♪ ♪ for me and you ♪ ♪ and i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ a rich life is about more than just money. that's why at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner so you can build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. it's apparently not enough for the two republicans serving on the 1/6 committee to become pariahs in their own party, worried about their own security. some in the gop think they need to be publicly expelled. from the "washington post," a prominent trump ally is pushing the gop to formally expel representatives liz cheney and adam kinzinger at the party's annual meeting this week in salt lake city, setting up a public showdown over the party's direction. a two-time trump campaign advisor who serves as a national committeeman from maryland submitted a resolution to party leadership that attacks cheney and kinzinger and calls for the rnc to formally announce their ouster. should the resolution pass, it would be an unusual and public rebuke from a political party against two of its incumbent members of congress. congressman kinzinger responded to this news with a victor hugo quote. you have enemies? good. that means you've stood up for something sometime in your life. we're back with garrett, sam, and steve. you know, sam, do republicans risk sort of protesting a little too much if they're so sure they're going to take over and they're so sure no one did anything wrong, why are they hiring lawyers? why not go sit down and say, yeah, i'll testify, put me on at 9:00 p.m.? >> well, first off, let me just say the point i was about to make before my internet gave out was so poignant that it probably could have won the show an emmy. >> you get a do-over, tv in the age of zoom. you can make your point. >> no, i can't. you set me up so well, garrett set me up so well. it passed. as to this moment, i will say this. there is -- i would say, yeah, they're kind of protesting too much, but you have to understand, the real sort of overriding calculus here for a lot of the republicans is to just not piss off donald trump, right? there's a palpable fear. >> so sad. >> if you cross donald trump -- well, it is what it is. if you cross this man, that you will be primaried, he'll run someone against you and you will lose and the truth of the matter is that the compelling evidence is right, that will happen. what you have seen is those who voted against impeachment have largely left office or are going to. now you're being targeted. so i think that's what's driving him and unfortunately i could hear garrett in my ear but that's okay. >> garrett has his next exclusive in the hallway. it's the hazards of being on tv with garrett. >> i'm working out here, sam. sorry. >> getting a republican -- maybe garrett's getting a republican to explain why it is that they are lawyering up and not participating. but i just think, ultimately, the calculus is, don't cross donald trump. >> it is, i think, though, steve schmidt, the point is they're afraid. i mean, liz cheney and adam kinzinger are not good for the gop brand. and i know that there was this sort of baked-in, conventional wisdom that their political fate is sealed and it's all good, but if they thought that, they wouldn't be hiring lawyers to deal with the 1/6 committee. they wouldn't be expelling liz cheney and adam kinzinger from the party, which isn't a thing. nobody really wants to be there anyway. it's so stupid that i'm embarrassed to be covering it but it is another window into the depravity of one of the two political parties in america. >> this is just such a part of any autocratic movement, like, tulips at easter, like the salmon swimming upstream to die before -- to spawn before they die, and that's the purge. the notion to expel, to impose the purity test and then to kick these people out. and so, what we have in this country is an autocratic cult of personality that's fueled by the qualities of cowardice. all of these people, by and large, that we're talking about have taken an oath to the constitution of the united states, and this man was engaged in an effort to overthrow the government of the united states in about the 244th year of the independence of the country. it's an ongoing conspiracy, an ongoing plot. it's playing out in realtime, and these people are more faithful to their ambitions, to their careers, to their -- to everything except for the oath they took to the constitution of the united states and to their duty to this country, which faces a real threat from a real autocratic movement. and so, yeah, you know, trump is a thug in the sense that he seems to intimidate, he seeks to control, he seeks to punish dissent. and not for nothing, it meant something in 2020 when the republican party abandoned any and all pretense of having a platform at the convention that had to do with issues. it was a loyalty test. the platform of the party is to be loyal to a man, to an individual above all things and that includes the american constitution in this moment. and this is -- this is happening plain as day in this country. no debate about it, no argument about it. look at what trump said at his rally. >> right, and this is not us saying it. this is what they put into writing in the gop platform, our platform is trump. garrett, i want to switch gears with you. there is some breaking news on capitol hill. u.s. senator lujan's office has put out a statement that he suffered a stroke. he's resting and expected to make a full recovery, according to his office. tell us what you know. >> reporter: yeah, apparently, ben ray lujan was feeling dizzy on thursday of last week. he was diagnosed with this stroke. he had surgery to relieve pressure in his brain, and as you say, his office says that he is expected to make a full recovery. what we don't know now is what the timetable would be for his return. obviously, in a 50/50 senate, every vote is important. oddly enough, this week, the issue is sort of a push because mitt romney has covid and he's not here this week. for people who have been asking, lujan is not on the judiciary committee so his presence in the immediate weeks to come on something like the supreme court nominee wouldn't be vital, and might not even be vital down the road if this nominee is able to get bipartisan support, but as we talked about last week, in this context, a 50/50 majority is hardly a functional majority in many cases because you just have to have everybody here and well. democrats won't have that for now, but hopefully the senator, who's only 49, who's an active guy, big mountain biker, healthy guy, will be able to get back soon. >> we certainly are sending our best wishes for a speedy recovery. nbc's garrett haake, thank you for bringing us that reporting and whatever you were working on in the hallway, we look forward to seeing that soon. sam stein, i will live forever missing and wondering what you were going to say before your internet went out. and steve schmidt, thank you for spending time with us today. wonderful to see all three of you. when we come back, russian president vladimir putin is accusing the u.s. of ginning up war, but he did hold out hope for a diplomatic solution to the current standoff over ukraine. we'll ask two of our most favorite experts what it might take to get there. our most favorite experts what it might favorite experts what it might take to get there. but we did agree this rug was perfect. okay. stop being weird. mom and daughter agreeing on something. wayfair works miracles! ooh! check this one out. this chair is so comfortable. it puts both of my babies to sleep. look at you making a space that works perfectly for all of you! i could use a good nap. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ i've got moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now, there's skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months, after just 2 doses. skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ i see trees of green ♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. ♪ red roses too ♪ ♪ i see them bloom for me and you ♪ (music) ♪ so i think to myself ♪ ♪ oh what a wonderful world ♪ every business is on a journey. and along the ride, you'll find many challenges. ♪ your dell technologies advisor can help you find the right tech solutions. so you can stop at nothing for your customers. new today, russian president vladimir putin broke his silence on the ongoing conflict in ukraine, making his first public comments since december. during a news conference with hungarian prime minister viktor orban, putin accused the u.s. of go aheading russia into an armed conflict and said america had ignored the demands set by him in formal writing last week. despite that, putin did leave the door open to more negotiations to come, saying this. if we look at all these many questions deeply, seriously, then it becomes clear that in order to avoid such a negative development of the situation, and we want to avoid it, all countries' interests, including those of russia, must be truly taken into account and a way of solving this problem must be found. putin's comments come after a tense meeting at the u.n. security council yesterday in which representatives from both countries forcefully squared off over russia's military build-up on the border of ukraine. joining us now is retired army colonel alexander vindman and former director of european affairs for the national security council, author of the "new york times" best seller "here, right matters" and former ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul, and i think i stumbled because last time you guys called each other alex and michael and it was like you already had a number one podcast going with all this complicated stuff made simple. i've been dying to ask both of you where you see things today. you first, ambassador mcfaul. >> well, my position hasn't really changed, although we have some more data, right? that putin met with viktor orban, the prime minister of hungary, one of his closest friends in the nato alliance, by the way -- his closest friend, let's be clear about that. and he said something sing song-y like a few other russian officials said. he said on the one hand, the united states, the biden administration and nato rejected his central demands in his draft treaties and that's true, they did, rightfully so, many my view, but he also, as you just quoted there, hinted at the possibility of further negotiations. that's something sergei lavrov said just a few days ago of a call-in show on a radio program for about 90 minutes where he hinted -- he said there's a grain of rationality or something like that in the american proposal. categorically rejected, by the way, the nato one, but he said there's a grain of something that we can work with there, but they still haven't met our maximalist demands, so, you know, half full or half empty, i'm not sure, but better than just categorically saying, we're disappointed and we're marching towards war. >> colonel vindman, your assessment, i think, struck fear in the hearts of everybody watching. do you have the same level of fear that a ground war, the likes of which we haven't seen in europe, since world war ii, is still a very real possibility? >> very much so. i think we should remember what ambassador mcfaul has said on several occasions, which is, vladimir putin's an authoritarian leader. he's a dictator. he can turn on a dime. he can change his mind and pull back all the troops with little cost paid so far and bank the fact that he's been at the center of the international agenda and brought all of the major powers to the table and had a discussion. in reality, you still have a massive build-up of forces that continues to accelerate, continues to get to the point where the -- there's a full capability to conduct an offensive capability, but there's also something on the balance that is very important. we've actually -- the united states and nato have been pretty successful with conducting a diplomatic campaign and enabling a pressure track that vladimir putin could buy into. the fact that there will be significant costs, that the seams between the u.s. and nato alliance and the seams between u.s. and eu are not as big as they thought, as the -- as big as the russians thought, that the u.s. is not going to be weak-kneed in responding, that weapons will come into ukraine, and now he's also seeing a coalition of the willing assemble. this is the triparte agreement between the uk, poland, and ukraine and probably is going to be joined by the baltics and other countries that is going to further underscore the fact that there's a significant cost to be paid by this. and i think that's the part that's really kind of changing -- it's the pressure track that's being enabled that is ultimately going to dissuade or not dissuade vladimir putin from taking this offensive. >> you know, colonel vindman, i find some of the analysis out there that the american public doesn't have the stomach to do anything mighty or important or big depressing, and i'm not sure it's accurate. can you tell me what your conversations are and your sense is of how willing the american people are to help sort of defend an ally and help stand with nato and protect ukraine alongside our allies against russian aggression? >> well, i think the american people are not going to be flippant with american lives and american treasure. there's a significant discontent with 20 years of war where it's unclear what the benefits were for the united states. i think we did keep adversaries and terrorists at bay, but that hasn't been sufficiently explained. what i think the american people are lacking at the moment is a clear case to be made as to what the u.s. should be doing with regards to supporting our european allies in a strategic partner that is ukraine. i think once you make the case the american public will understand that this is not something that's likely to be sterile, that is going to be at arm's length that is not going to involve the u.s. even in the most -- the waning hours before the first shots are fired, there's likely to be a massive cyber assault on ukraine that's going to have spillover effects. things are not going to be as sterile. so, i think once you explain all this to the american public, they will have all the fortitude that we've always had to face challenges, to face down bullies and really to be the leader for the democratic world when it seems like the -- it seems like we're on our heels. >> it does. ambassador mcfaul, i'm curious your thoughts on the same question. i also have to say, seeing putin standing with orban, i had a couple thoughts. i traveled to hungary with george bush and it's amazing how quickly and completely and brazenly a country can lurch to sort of full authoritarian down with putin identity, and it struck me as just wild and crazy that the most watched host on one of the most watched cable channels in america is en route to visit orban again. >> i didn't know that fact. i think i know who you're talking about. but nicole, i want to answer both questions. to this question, it gets back to something you and i have talked about many times. the fight between democrats and autocrats is not between the east and the west like it was in the cold war. it's within democracies. so, we're having that fight here in our country. you talk about it always. viktor orban, you know, ideologically, i think is closer to vladimir putin than he is to president biden. and in many other countries in europe as well, and that struggle, i don't think many -- we're not focused enough on that ideological struggle, in my view. and the fact that these guys are buddy-buddy, i think, underscores the point. to the larger question about the american people and where we're at, i think it's really important question. i do think the administration should devote more time to explaining what the stakes are. this is not just about ukraine. this is about whether great power should have the ability to invade other countries and annex them when they see fit, and we should be reminded about, we know what that history looks like, that's the interwar period between world war i and world war ii. we know it didn't end well. give a big speech. i think secretary blinken gave a great speech, but he gave it in berlin. we need a speech from the president here in the united states long those terms. but secondly, i actually want to agree with alex. they've done a good job on the diplomacy. i think there's too many times when this gets cartoonized as either, you're for peace or you're for war. i see a lot of that debate among some of my colleagues here in the united states right now. that's a silly debate. what's going on right now is something i teach that's called coercive diplomacy. you have to have pressure but you have to be willing to negotiate, and coercive diplomacy right now, i think, is working. >> colonel vindman, ambassador mcfaul, thank you so much for spending time with us. we'll continue to call on both of you. when we come back, the news that many parents of young kids have been waiting for, for a long, long time. covid vaccines for little kids may be just around the corner. t. trelegy for copd. [coughing] ♪ birds flyin' high, you know how i feel. ♪ ♪ breeze driftin' on by... ♪ if you've been playing down your copd,... ♪ it's a new dawn, it's a new day,... ♪ ...it's time to make a stand. start a new day with trelegy. ♪...and i'm feelin' good. ♪ no once-daily copd medicine... has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. with three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. it also helps prevent future flare-ups. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. take a stand and start a new day with trelegy. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy, and save at trelegy.com. i'm mark and i live in vero beach, florida. ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy, my wife and i have three children. ruthann and i like to hike. we eat healthy. we exercise. i noticed i wasn't as sharp as i used to be. my wife introduced me to prevagen and so i said "yeah, i'll try it out." i noticed that i felt sharper, i felt like i was able to respond to things quicker. and i thought, yeah, it works for me. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. hey lily, i need a new wireless plan for my business, but all my employees need something different. oh, we can help with that. okay, imagine this. your mover, rob, he's on the scene and needs a plan with a mobile hotspot. we cut to downtown, your sales rep lisa has to send some files, like asap! so basically i can pick the right plan for each employee. yeah i should've just led with that. with at&t business. you can pick the best plan for each employee and get the best deals on every smart phone. every business is on a journey. and along the ride, you'll find many challenges. ♪ your dell technologies advisor can help you find the right tech solutions. so you can stop at nothing for your customers. today, a sigh of relief and a major step closer to the news that millions of families have been waiting for, for a long time. as we've been anticipating today, pfizer has just submitted to the fda its two-dose covid vaccine for the nearly 20 million children in this country who are between 6 months old and 5 years old. nbc news has learned that the smaller two-shot regimen, a tenth of the dose that's given to adults, could be cleared for the age group that we just mentioned by the end of the month. the fda is also expected to eventually sign off on a third dose as part of that same series. joining our conversation, msnbc medical contributor dr. kavita patel, former policy director for the obama white house, now a fellow at the brookings institution. so, dr. patel, two questions. one, what does this mean, that two shots are approved but you might need three, and if you've got a child in this age group, what should you do? >> yeah, great questions, and remember, we were here talking about this age group and how it would be a lot longer, april or may, and that's because in december, pfizer released a press release that said that two doses was not adequate to get to the antibody levels that they had expected to set as a target and they were going to add, in conjunction with the two doses, a third dose two months after the second dose. and so what has happened between december and now is actually a bit unusual for the agency. the fda basically saying, listen, the safety data is in, and we think those first two doses could be helpful if the data works out to prevent hospitalizations, so let's go ahead and start this rolling submission, look at the first two doses. they've already scheduled an advisory committee meeting for february 15th and the action from the cdc could follow quickly thereafter to your point. talking to parents live, many parents, like you said, have been waiting for it. they have been holding back children. they have been nervous. they have had to keep kids out of day care because of infections, people who are immunocompromised. what this means is that now you will have options. i think the bigger question that remains is what you point out, nicole. it is likely we'll need a third dose for the 2 to 4 age group. keep in mind, under 2, the data seems sufficient. this is all by press release. we haven't seen the full data package. so, this begs the question that a lot of pediatricians and doctors and primary care physicians such as myself are going to need to be prepared to answer. what we know is that this is a safe vaccine. i'm just -- i just wish we had it back in december, because the same vaccine they were talking about in december -- think about how many hospitalizations we could have prevented if we had it back then. >> and i guess that leads to two more questions. how have kids in this group that haven't been eligible for any vaccine, how have they fared with the omicron surge? i'm surprised by the lack of interest for parents to vaccinate kids 5 to 11. what is the demand for vaccines for this age group in this country? >> yeah, i expect that demand t under 5 age group will be similar along the lines of 5 to 11 age group. what i hear from a lot of parents who are pro vaccine or people who are not skeptical about the vaccines, they just really want to wait until they see this fully approved or would like more time. i think it reveals the nervousness that those of us have about giving our child something when you have the emergency authorization. i want to stress that that tropical storm is something of a relate regulatory term that has to be used. it doesn't mean it was forced or pushed through quickly. it just means that's a special designation that the fda has in order to do this kind of approval before the full approval and that's really where a lot of parents come. we know children overall have been hospitalized at a lower rate than dumts. but i would be red sant reticent to characterize this as a mild illness. if you are one of the children who have a hospitalization attached to their covid or even 1 in 10 kids who might have long covid, this is very real. let's not forget children are in households where they might from an im mun copromised family or trend and these are potential transmission. and it's why i wish we had this in december. i'm eager to see the data and understand what's different. >> are you worried it's another really sort of complicated dose of information to impart on even people who aren't enthusiastic about vaccines? >> just explaining it, we were talking about it today because the press was breaking. so some of my colleagues who know i speak fda, they said, let me get this straight. it's probably two doses, but two years to four is probably three doses. and 5 to 12 we have a booster. uh-huh. so this is not the easiest to explain but boy am i glad we have options for everybody 6 months and up. we'll just have to explain them. >> one family at a time. thank you soft for spending time with us today. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. k for ushe ♪ ♪takes everything you've got♪ ♪ ♪taking a break from all your worries♪ ♪sure would help a lot♪ we'll be right back. ♪ ♪wouldn't you like to get away?♪ ♪ ♪sometimes you want to go♪ ♪where everybody knows your name♪ ♪and they're always glad you came♪ ♪ ♪you want to be where you can see♪ ♪our troubles are all the same♪ ♪you want to be where everybody knows your name♪ ♪ ♪ you want to go where people know♪ ♪people are all the same♪ ♪you want to go where everybody knows your name♪ ♪ mm. 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