hans in two years now. >> yeah, and your pants prior to covid were not -- [laughs] you were not an idea of anchorwoman to vogue. -- [inaudible] [laughs] >> i don't know. i think you've underestimated how weird vogue is gotten. >> [laughs] >> i think we should stop digging before we get any deeper into this whole. >> we are done. thank you rachel. well today, an elderly man in new york city with no visible means of support has experience strong symptoms of extreme cognitive decline has been subpoenaed to see what he knows about this -- rudy giuliani was dropped from -- and was dropped from law in washington d.c. as he awaits his permanent disbarment, has received a expedia -- he has more reason to plead the fifth amendment to the community, and refuses to answer questions. he is the subject of a criminal festive -- they raided his home to collect evidence and is rated as completely illegal and in constitutional. even though giuliani had raids when he was the new york -- in ukraine on behalf of donald trump and himself. that is not something that the committee wants to ask giuliani about. but the committee -- covers areas that will involve state crimes. they say, kim park, quote, he purported claims that the 2020 election was stolen and had -- to -- between mid november 2020 and january six 2021. he actively promoted claims of election fraud and we have the former election -- he took steps to overturn the election results according to witness testimony and public results. he encouraged president trump to direct the seizure of voting machines after being told that they had no lawful authority to do so. according to an attorney on january 6th, and days prior, he was in contact with then president trump and -- in delaying and overturning the results of the 2020 election. three other possible coconspirators received subpoena from the committee today. sydney powell, jenna ellis, for us, have been sanctioned and been recommended for possible disbarment. they ordered her to pay $175,000 in attorneys fees for having a frivolous lawsuit against the presidential election. sydney powell wasted millions of dollars by telling her people the lie that she was working to reverse the outcome of the federal election. last fall, they subpoenaed the election records of -- the letter to power says, the seizure of voting machines around the country to you and alter those reads -- sydney powell will no longer -- to answer questions about those times. in the letters to jenna ellis, the committee said, you prepared and circulated to memos to analyze the constitutional authority for the vice president to reject or delay counting electoral votes from states that submitted alternate states of electors. they were fired from the office of donald trump in the first year of that administration, they parts of dissipated in a press conference on november 19 2020 during which attorneys for the trump campaign promoted claims of election fraud. published reports have plate you place that meetings at the willard hotel in the days leading up to the january six investigation, you are on a call with former president trump on the morning of january six, during which options were discussed to delay the certification of election results in light of the vice president pence's and willingness to deny or gently certification. rudy giuliani and others subpoenaed today need to ask themself, how much do they want to spend in attorneys fees fighting the subpoenas? rudy giuliani has already complained about the fact that trump won't pay his bills. the defense strategy to fight these subpoenas, the shortest course of action, is to show up on the day requested by the committee, and plead the fifth amendment. the court will produce documents to the committee on february -- and will testify on february 8th. she is chair of the house administration committee, and a member of the select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. zoe lofgren thank you for joining us. >> do you have any indication of this point, from any of the subpoenaed witnesses, how they are going to respond? i do not lawrence. i hope they would come forward and show us everything that they know. if they are proud of the activities that they engaged in, and tell the committee everything they did. the subpoenas have been said forward, and we expect them to comply. certainly the documents months be sent in. there is no fifth amendment privilege protecting the documents unless reducing them themselves would be a crime. we hope they will come in and answer their questions. we have a lot of questions. >> there is some obvious, with raleigh giuliani, to start with ham, there is obviously a zone of fifth amendment protection that he would want in facing these questions. he is already known to be subject to a criminal investigation. he is already been disbarred for some of the conduct that you are talking about. so i assume the committee, in your discussions, have anticipated the possibility, that rudy giuliani might just show up and take the fifth edmund meant for every question that is addressed. >> well the state of law is, if you think that you would incriminate yourself criminally, and want to be protected by the fifth amendment rights against self incrimination, you must come into the committee and assert that right question by question. the reason for that, is that the committee has another decision to make, is whether to seek -- from that claim. if we decide that that is wise and that decision has not yet been made, then he would have been required to testify as to the matters. and that testimony to that committee would not be used in that later prosecution. so that would be something the committee would have to search through, case by case, question by question, witness by witness. >> the committee started on subpoenas with steve bannon. since then, it seems to have been working upward through the pyramid of all of this. is this set of subpoenas what you would consider the top of the pyramid? just shy of the president, and vice president? >> not necessarily. you are right. we have heard from hundreds of witnesses. news stories, when someone high-profile refuses to testify, meanwhile hundreds of others are coming into the committee to answer our questions, and we have received quite a bit of information. we are piecing it together. these subpoenas are two individuals who appear to be very involved in the plot to overturn the election. we want to ask them for their questions about that. but it is not the end of the inquiry. >> they reported tonight, that the committee has subpoenaed the phone records of eric trump and kimberly -- who is involved with donald trump jr., whether you talk about that? >> it is important to note that we haven't saw the contents of any records. so records that are being sought have to do with the location, the length of time, the phone numbers that were called or texts sent, but not the actual content. it will actually help answer some questions. fill in some holes from some other testimony received. pence, whether the testimony we received is reliable. it is important. >> -- in effect, is a phone bill that you are asking for. in phone bills it shows, this call was plays that this time to this phone number. or a text was said to this time to this phone number. no content at all. >> that is correct. >> and from that, you will get to, space a clay, form questions about the content. you can see a communication going from this person to another person. what if you wanted to know that content? is the only way to get it to ask questions about the people involved in the content? >> quite possibly. when i will say is that we have got over 50,000 documents that have been released to us. so you can compare some of those documents to the records. you can put together a piece of information. maybe questions for other in the vigils. or putting together pieces of testimonies that we have already received. but it is important to note, at this point, it is only data and not the content. >> zoe lofgren, the committee said that they are going to go public. they said they are going to maybe be in january of this month. what can you tell us about the public schedule of the committee? >> i'm going to let the chairman make that announcement. but we are gonna have hearings when we are ready. the full picture, probably, will be a series of hearings and not just one. some of what the timing relates to is how soon the court deny search to the former presidents request, unleashing, we hope soon, documents from the national archives. we expect that to fill in a lot of questions and allow us to separate this -- we are working very hard. there are depositions that begin early, multiple definitions. the committee participates in them every day. the committee meets at least once or twice a week. going through wet we found, and next steps. it's a very active piece of work. it is one of the most intense endeavors i've been involved in in my years in congress. >> congresswoman zoe lofgren thank you very much for starting off our discussion tonight. thank you. >> thank you. >> and thanks to the congresswoman for that for fix said way too neal katyal. a former acting u.s. general and -- neil, with that set up, we have to go straight to you for the supreme court schedule for the question a donald trump's documents. question unless the supreme court acts and all indications for but supreme court not going to side for trump on this. these are pretty much bogus, executive privilege claims. and so, ordinarily, you might expect the court to hear. because it is such a grave matter. but he, because the arguments of team trump or so bad. i think that the thinking is, they won't even hear them. >> neil, what is your reading of the subpoenas. that the committee issued today? >> very important lawrence. some legal teams win buckets of jury verdicts. others, like donald trump's, win buckets of subpoenas. and i'm so glad to see the committee do this. it is honoring the truth seeking function. it is a really rare thing to subpoena a lawyer. and honestly i'd be uncomfortable with it, if these folks were acting truly as lawyers. a lot agreed does not shield an inquiry, if you are a coconspirator, or coup plotter. or have ongoing criminal activity. i think that for these lawyers. like rudy giuliani, this attorney client privilege argument, which they are starting to advance right now, is a double edged sword. on the one hand, these for folks, hope to keep their actions from public scrutiny. but on the other, they are going to have to defend what they were doing that's bona fide legal advice. you have any data of how hard that is going to be. just google the word, sydney powell disbarment. we will see how hard that claim is going to be. >> neil, this seems to be legitimate fifth amendment claims of available to some possible all of these witnesses. especially rudy giuliani. >> shore. there is potential criminal activities here. the letter that you read lawrence. congress wrote to him today. i think that it starts to refer to that. and, you are going to have executive privilege being litigated. and probably something about the fifth amendment to. and ordinarily, i would worry lawrence. because that amount of delay in getting this information, allows for these four attorneys to get their story straight. but i do think that gives them too much credit. these four couldn't figure out how to have a press conference of the four seasons. i'm not sure they could get their story straight. >> yes. thank you very much for joining us. coming up kirsten sinema phoned it in. but joe manchin showed up. our next guest, amy polish i was in the room. when senate democrats discuss changing the 60 vote rule today. that is next. changing the 60 vote rul today. and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs that is next or recently received a vaccine. ♪nothing is everything♪ talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ ♪making your way in the world today♪ ♪takes everything you've got♪ ♪ ♪taking a break from all your worries ♪ ♪sure would help a lot ♪ ♪wouldn't you like to get away? 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>> you know, we are focused on voting rights. and i never disclose what happens at these meetings. i think that it is very important that we are able to have open discussions. but i will tell you what i have told them, would i've told my republican colleagues. and that is, that voting is fundamental. we are actually not talking about getting rid of the filibuster, even though if it was in my home once, i would do that. we are talking about reforming the rules of the senate, and taking was a secret process where literally people just stop the vote, they make it so that you can actually get to a conclusion of an issue. and they go home and raise money, or whatever. that, as i said, is not how this is supposed to work. so we are taking where is a city behind closed doors process, and making it public with the standing filibuster. something i will note that senator manchin was interested, and we did have discussions all summer. was the at the idea here is how you go back to how it used to be. mr. smith goes to washington. there is a provision that you exhaust the speeches. each senator can speak. and at that moment you get to a vote. the second thing you need to know, this filibuster has been carved up so many times. so that we can do the peoples business. it's not even funny. 160 times. and somehow, the republicans have landed in a place. where there is a deduction for tax cuts. trump tax cuts. that's 51 votes. there is an exception for free -- as an amy cohen barrett. there is an exception for appealing rules and regulations. like on the affordable care act. 51 vote. it appears as though, their priorities, they've somehow whittled down to 51 votes. and i just don't think that this is a moment that you can have this archaic concept tight. make no reforms to. as our people have done in history. and throw the voters under the senate desk. i think we need reform. >> senator schumer just announced a vote on wednesday at 6:30 pm. which will probably be coming across one of your electronic devices in a moment, if not already. does that mean that is the vote to end the debate? that is the one you need 60 votes for? >> that's the first foe. to make very clear, for the first time we are actually debating tomorrow. because four times, republicans have shut us down. so we haven't even been able to have a debate. we did this, as you know the rules very well, as a message from the senate. so we will at least be able to debate the bill. then the vote is, let sondland of a, let's vote. right now, that require 60 votes. as you predicted, if we don't get there, then we will go, i assume, after some debate, to a rules change. >> will the senate be able to go straight to the debate on rules change? after that 60 vote on wednesday? >> i believe we can. and that is our plan. because we have to. we really are left with no choice. this would be the fifth time that they shut us down. if they do as predicted, without being able to get on the bill for a vote. >> one of the challenges you seem to be facing with senator manchin, he said today, that he doesn't believe there is any serious threat to voting rights in america. he said that, that is not going to happen. and he specifically cited marc elias. democratic election lawyer. saying that marc elias is out there fighting these things in the courts and that is good enough. >> i think if you talk to marc elias, i'm sure you have. he will tell you and i said very publicly. that with this concerted effort across our country to suppress the vote. that litigation is not enough. you have a case where, say in montana, where they have had same-day registration for 15 years. flip the switch, got rid of it, 1000 people used. in the last election and now they're going to go to the polls and find out that it is disappearing. in georgia, raphael warnock, 70,000 people registered to vote in the runoff period. they've now limited the runoff period and stop the registration of people during that month. these are things that are going on state by state by state. and yeah, you can litigate, and we have incredible arguments to be made. but basically, what we want to put in place, so that you can vote regardless of your zip code. federal minimum standards, upheld repeatedly by the way, the ability of congress to do this, under the constitution, that says congress can make -- regarding federal elections. that is what we are trying to do here. regardless of state of the living >> senator any common shark, thank you so much for joining, us appreciate it. >> thank you lawrence, was great to be on again. >> coming up, you have seen the headlines in our most respectable publication. is the civil war ahead, as the new yorker? are we facing a second civil war? asked the new york times. we will begin to consider that question tonight, in a series of segments. we will be doing on this program, called a house divided. we will be joined next by the author of a new book that has already become the basis for much of the discussion of civil war. robert f. walter. is the author of how civil war start. and she joins us next. d she joins usnly pay for what you need. wooo, yeaa, woooooo and, by switching you could even save 665 dollars. hey tex, can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ only pay for what you need. aleve-x. it's fast, powerful long-lasting relief with a revolutionary, rollerball design. because with the right pain reliever... life opens up. aleve it... and see what's possible. fries or salad? salad! good choice! it is. so is screening for colon cancer. when caught in early stages, it's more treatable. hey, cologuard! hi, i'm noninvasive and i detect altered dna in your stool to find 92% of colon cancers even in early stages. early stages. it's for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. (all) to screening! already a house divided against itself cannot stand. those words were spoken by the man who would become the first republican presidents, in a speech to the illinois republican states convention on june -- 1858. president lincoln was the president chief for a war that killed more americans than any other. the civil war. there have been many issues like women's rights to vote, civil war, the iraq war, but throughout all that our house has never been divided against itself to the points that's the new yorker and the new york times are now running headlines like is the civil war ahead? are we see more likely facing another civil war? -- tonight we begin, what will be a series on this program called, a house divided. it will offer a range of thoughtful and educated responses to the question, is a civil war head? our next guest is one of the people who started this public discussion. with the publication of her new book, how the civil war started. barbara walter is a professor of international relations of -- at the university at the san diego. she's studied -- at the war in peace institute. and she served on and advisory committee to the cia called, political instability task force. it rates countries on a scale of functioning democracy on one end and functioning leadership on the other end. the -- has the highest positive squirrel -- it has slipped down the scale recently to a plus five. that moves the united states into a zone that this scale calls a -- because it combines elements of a democracy and elements of an october chrissy. that kind of instability, is one of the risk factors that cia analysts used to predict a civil war. joining us now is barbara walter. she is joining us now on the important new book, how civil war start. thank you for joining us tonight and having this discussion. we may invite you to come back. one question, right off the back, is there an example of a country with a plus five score on that political instability scale, that has been fallen into a civil war from that score. ? >> yes. plus five is the beginning of this zone where a lot of political violence and instability happens. the greatest risk is in the middle between negative one and positive one. if you think, for example, the war's going on today like ukraine, for example, who slipped from democracy into the innocuous his own, and it is currently in a civil war. if you think for, for example, after the u.s. invasion where saddam hussein was tackled, it brought the country into this middle zone of iraq where the u.s. hoped to democratize it but it did not succeed. it was during this time in the middle zone that a civil war broke out there. so yes we do see -- >> so let's define terms as we do. let's define what's civil war means now in the 21st century. your book says if america has a civil war they will go online to plan the resistance, strategizing how to undermine the government at every level, and gain control of parts of america. they will create chaos and fear. and then they will force americans to pick sides. so that looks nothing like what we think about as a civil war. there will not be too standing armies. what else will indicate the kinds of discuss conditions you are talking about? >> it's going to be more of what we envision as an insurgency. it will be much more decentralized. it will be fought by multiple different militias. different military groups. sometimes it will be competing with each other. it will look more like what we saw in northern ireland for many decades. we'll be using unconventional -- bombs placed in public places, and buildings. assassination of opposition leaders or judges who are not sympathetic to the insurgency plot. that is what the new modern civil wars tend to look like. >> you also cites other risk factors for slipping this way. you say one of the other risk factors is a long-standing dominant group, say in this country, white americans, who fear that they are using their dominance. is that what we were seeing on january 6th? >> yes. the u.s. is in the midst of this great transformation. it is the transformation of the u.s. being a white majority country to a non-white majority country. like in 2045. and in history, and inside the united states, it's that the groups are not the poorest groups, not the immigrants and the most down trodden, it is the groups that are losing power. they have a deep sense of resentment. they are the ones who feel like the country is rightfully theirs. they are the ones who still have the residual power and are capable of organizing and launching a challenge. if you look historically, for example at the palestinians and isel. if you look at northern ireland, if you look at the muslims in the southern philippines, these are all people who had once been the majority in the regions, lost their majority status and power, and eventually turn to violence to try and reinstate it. >> this is something, for example that we will talk about in future programs, there are wet people land on as the catholic side. it's not the most accurate. but they were arguing that that was an anti colonial revolution -- there is simply of fought to stalemates in the late 20th century. it does not fit the model of what we would consider a civil war. come back to that later. but the south africa example that you gave us is fascinating. with the south africa example, given that you describe modern civil war as an insurgency, did south africa avoid a civil war or did they actually have a civil war in terms of a violent insurgency and then convinced the white dominant tiny minority to surrender in that civil war to the vast african population? >> yes. f experts do not consider what happened in the after south african civil war. when you asked them what's happened, they said that was the country that most since -- they actually thought that south africa would be destroyed as a result. it avoided it. and people point to south africa as an example of what to do when you are in a situation like this. you had a white minority regime who desperately wanted to hold on to power. you had a very large black majority that has been protesting for years, that were increasing their protests, that were shifting from a non violent protests strategy to the white to the violent strategy, and still the white majority did not concede and anyway. -- when the military went in and just murdered 100 children. this was the direction they were going in. the experts thought for sure we are going to have a civil war here. the black majority is so numerous, they will not stand for this. and then the white minority regime shifted. and the reason is not because they suddenly had a conscience, it was because the white business community was slowly being strangled by very effective economic sanctions. it was the white business community, and part, that realize that they had to make a choice. they could have -- or apartheid. but they could not have both. they chose prophets. and they told the regime that they would no longer support apartheid. it did not take long after that for the government to transfer power to the black majority. barbara walter thank you very much for joining us tonight and joining us on this discussion. the new book, is an important book, how civil war start. thank you very much for joining us. >> it is my pleasure, thank you. >> coming up, imagine the insurgency that professor walter has just described in the united states. imagine bombings every week in america. you don't have to a a match in that, it happened, not so long ago. historian kurt andersen will joining us after the break. coming up next. us after thefound the experts at safelite autoglass. with their exclusive technology, they fixed my windshield... coming up next then recalibrated the camera attached to my glass ew that was a thing?! >> woman: safelite has service i can trust. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ why do people who live with generalized myasthenia gravis want a new treatment option? 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ask your health care provider today about once-weekly ozempic®. ♪ oh, oh, oh, ozempic®! ♪ you may pay as little as $25 for a 3-month prescription. ♪ ♪ ♪ "how bizarre" by omc ♪ no annual fee on any discover card. ♪ ♪ you've just heard a description of a -- civil war in the united states as being on arms into surge and see with spread of our birds around the country. well with that insurgency look like? more attacks on federal buildings in the conspiracy against the you -- how about bombings every week somewhere in the country? we lived through exactly that. during the vietnam war in small -- were being bombed in the middle of the night by amateur bomb makers in the radical fringe of the anti-war movement. bomb set up by pacifist that were set up for war. they were set up in the middle of the night when they were sure no one was near them. the most deadly bombing in american history came 20 years later when in 1995, the white supremacist, timothy -- killing 168 people including 19 children in the day's care center in that federal building. why did none of those bombings ever provoke the idea that america might be on the verge of a new civil war? joining us now is kurt anderson. a new york's best selling offer. -- >> it was in your book fantasyland that i read about something that i lived through as a high school student but was surprised to learn. that is in 1969 and 1970, there were at least ten bombs on average a week being set off in protests, political protest, around this country. why did that not -- i don't even remember being slightly wary that that was gonna change the order of things in this country. >> it was -- nor did it send america into a hysterical -- bad things about there being three tv networks, and a more concentrated mainstream media, the media did not whip up hysteria about these small bombings. now, there was a bombing of the capitol. it wasn't just post offices, it was not just the bank that was burned down or other buildings, it was -- oh at least that not more. the perspective of what it was, was that it was a very tiny, underground, insurgency. that we're doing these almost, symbolic bombings, not to kill people as you said, but to say we are radical and we are engaging in revolution. people remained calm, and they were not all even mentioned on the nightly news. they were so calm. then they went away. the war went away, the draft went away, and most of these underground people were arrested. so it was a passing phase. as you say, i was amazed to discuss her, that's why put in the book, that people were -- even though there was talk among the far left, militant -- were going to trigger a socialist revolution. it did not happen as a result of those bombings. as a result of those actions. >> one of those things to consider in the possibility of anything, we can recall the civil war in the 21st insurgency. cia analysts consider at least these things, whether they have to lose? and so, when you look at americans today who are worried about making their car parent mints, worried about making their mortgages, that is a much bigger concern to them than the possibility of should i go up to a building and commit a crime in trump's name. and a lot of them wanted to do that on january 6th. >> and most of those several thousand who broke into the capital building, we're not, i do not believe, a mentioning that they were in an armed force to take over the capitol and get arrested. so far, the people who have been prosecuted as they are trying to get out of their punishment, as they say, are perhaps -- i did not realize what i was giving into. i am not getting -- i'm not saying that there will be a terrible set of actions, but as you said, there was -- in the u.s. civil war, and this comes with wanting to call it, and in possible civil war, we americans only think of our civil war 150 years ago. it was so different in so many ways. even though, a way of forces resembles that, in many ways. for instance, -- people aren't going to be willing to die, or kill, for the sake of whatever their grievances are today, the south consisted of slaves. so there was indeed a reason to fight. >> yes, and when you look back at those young radicals, 18-year-olds and 20-year-old setting off bombs in 1969, none of them had mortgages or car payments the pay. none of them had things they need to go home to in that night in the same way that people do now. kirk, we're out of time on the first round of this discussion. thank you so much for joining us tonight. we appreciate. it we will be right back. we appreciate. we appreciate. it we will bthat i was seeing in my forehead were getting deeper than i was used to them being. and i realized, you know, what i can focus again on myself. so, what do you see when you look at yourself? 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