a very police state trooper at the door told them that the capital was closed, except for official business, that everybody who is due to be there that day, for that official business was already there unaccounted for. and these republicans know they could not come in. the official business that was underway at the capitol that day, is michigan was going through the official process by which the states electors, cast their votes in the electoral college. biden won the state of miss michigan. that means the electors for biden and harris were chosen to be the official electors for michigan. the electors that they had to meet officially at the state capitol at noon and cast their votes in the electoral college. it's an elaborate and performative process we go through to pick a president in this country, but that is the part of the process that was underway in that state capital that day. it was kind of just this crazy thing to see that these republicans were outside banging on the door trying to get in. because they said, that they were there for the official business that the real electors were not actually inside that they were the real electors, for trump. and so they were demanding to be let in. >> the capital is closed. or if you are taking part in the electoral college process. anybody else is not committed to commit. >> we are electors. we are here for the process. >> they have already been checked. and >> while not all of them. >> the capital is closed. all electors have been advised, and they are already here. >> but the gop electors. >> i understand. >> captain? >> state trooper patiently explaining, no, i know at the electoral college. is i know with the electors are. the real electors are here, they're inside, and that's not you guys. there's the real electors, those are the only electors, and you guys telling me you are also electors. you are not getting in. that happened in michigan last year. december 14th, and we covered at the time. sort of this bizarre thing. but it turns, out republicans did that a number of different states that day, and what we now know, was part of a three-part plot. orchestrated from washington. to try to falsify the election results and keep donald trump in power. part one, was in the states. an effort in multiple states, to line up, false electors for trump. if biden wins the state, that means the electors from that state or the biden electors, but they created these faults trump electors. as if trump had won those states. that was part one of the plan, part two of the plan, was to use the u.s. justice department, to pressure states, into sending those fake trump electors to the electoral college, or leads to withhold the real biden electors. part three of the plan, was to get vp mike pence to go along with this. when it came time on january six, for him to count the electoral college votes. that's what the mob was for the capitol on january 6th. to help vice president mike pence with that decision. to make sure he did the right thing when it came to counting those fake trump electors, or not. but the part that happens, actually in the states, has received comparatively less attention ever since. the footage that exists, of these republican fake electors banging on the door and trying to get past the state police captain, that got some attention. that gave us a little insight and how they tried to do in michigan. but consider what happened right next door. that same day, that same time. in wisconsin. wisconsin republicans there pushed in a way that was more unsettling, this is footage of the actual electors meeting in wisconsin that. day december 14th, last year. the actual casting their votes in the college. wisconsin has ten electoral votes, biden and harris won the, vote so these are ten wisconsin biden harris electors, meeting officially, to cast their electoral college votes. wisconsin governor tony either's was there, he was actually one of the electors, they met in this big fancy ceremonial room. there was applause when they were done. governor evers said, we made it. today we did our part to continue the long and sacred tradition of our democracy, honoring the will of the people. that was the real process. at the wisconsin state capital that, day those were the real electors. really casting their real votes, for the electoral college that day, 12 noon, december 14th, wisconsin state capital, madison wisconsin. good all good. the way it is supposed to go. but later that afternoon the milwaukee journal sentinel was first to report, that while that real meeting of the real electors was happening inside the state capitol. fake electors were also meeting, elsewhere in the same state capital. at the same time, on the same day quote. an hour after the wisconsin supreme court affirmed joe biden as the winner of the november 3rd presidential election in wisconsin, wisconsin republicans refused to accept the results, and met at the capitol to put forth their own slate of electors. well ten democratic electors met inside governor either's office, to finalize the states -- and vice president elect kamala harris, republicans convened to cast votes for president donald trump. what do you mean cast votes? the details on this are amazing. so this was a scoop by the milwaukee journal sentinel that day. and the reason that they got it as a scoop, and not everybody knew it was happening, is because the republicans actually did all of that in secret. they, unlike what happened in michigan, where they brought cameras with them and pounded on the door in the capital and made a big stink. in wisconsin, they did it in secret, they did not announce their plans in advance. they met behind closed, doors they did not allow any public access to what they were doing. when the journal sentinel got wind of what they were doing, the executive director of the states republican party told the paper quote, we just want them to quietly go in and do our thing. well one thing they did, would soon be revealed as quite a thing. because they did not just act this out like a pageant like the michigan republicans did. in wisconsin, the republicans did it privately, and i kid you not, they forged all the paperwork, to make it seem like they were the real electors. we have the paperwork that they forged. certificate of the votes, of the 2020 electors from wisconsin, we the undersigned, being the duly and qualified electors for president and vice president of the united states of america, from the state of wisconsin, do hereby certified the following, a, that we convened an organized at the state capital in the city of madison wisconsin on the 14th day of december 2020, to perform the duties in joined upon us. that being so assembled and do we organize, we proceeded to vote by valid. and ballot verse for president and then vice president, by the state ballots and see, that the following are all of the votes for president, and all of the votes for vice president. so cast aforesaid. it all sounds very official right, until you get to this par. who are the votes cast? for donald j trump. number of votes, ten. michael r. pence, number of votes. ten we the julie and qualified electors. yeah, then they all signed it >> as if this were a real thing. with all of this official seeming language, in witnessed where, of we the undersigned, have unto at the capitol in the city of madison, subscribes our respective names. and then indeed, there's all ten of, them signing their names to this forged track humans, that says they are the real electors. and wisconsin's electors cast the state vote for trump. even though trump lost wisconsin. and, they didn't just do this to large. they didn't do this to put in a scrapbook, to fantasize about what their alternate reality might have been like had trump won. they actually submitted this forged documentation, a memorandum, to the president of the united states senate. to the archivist of the united states. to the wisconsin secretary of state. you the chief judge of the u.s. district court to the western district of wisconsin. these are all the places, the actual electoral vote count is supposed to be submitted, if they were real electives. they submit is theirs as if it were the real thing. pursuant to three u.s. code section 11 in close please find, wisconsin's electoral votes for president and vice president. there was no such thing, enclosed with that document. there was a forged documents saying wisconsin's electors voted for trump. which was not true. those were not real electors. these documents were forged to make it look like wisconsin was officially saying trump won the state, when actually biden did. it's amazing that they did that, in the milwaukee journal sentinel, who had this scoop that the republicans had done that secretly behind closed doors. while the real electors were meeting down the hall, they had this no toward the end of their reporting that day. again, this is just over a year, ago this was december last year quote. the electoral college votes now go to congress, will count them on january six. vice president mike pence will fight preside over the tally. some republicans have raised the possibility of having members of congress challenge the results of some states. and try to shift votes to trump. yep. that's in fact what happened. in ten wisconsin republicans agreed to impersonate the real electors from their state, and they provided a forge set of documents, of republican electors from wisconsin could be substituted for the real ones. if the plan had worked. now, because of everything else going on at the time, because some of the other efforts like the one we showed you the footage of, from michigan, because some of those other efforts were higher profile, will happen in wisconsin kind of faded from view, at least in the national news. if it ever surface there at all. washington post mentioned and a couple of sentences in an article that was about a lot of other things going on. we featured ones here on the show. but inside wisconsin, people who worry full-time about the democracy, and crucially people who know what modern wisconsin republicans are like up close and personal. they have taken this very seriously. and, they have tried this, year to make sure that it not only would not go unnoticed, but that there would be consequences, for what the republicans tried to do. attorney jeffrey mandel, with wisconsin legal group law forward, he wrote to the state election commission in wisconsin, and also to the milwaukee county district attorney, the prosecutor there. referring those ten fake electors, who forged that paperwork, referring them for potential prosecution. quote, following the november 2020 election, ten individuals impersonating the legally selected unauthorized presidential electors of the state, flouted the will of the people as expressed at the ballot box. and fraudulently attempted to misappropriate wisconsin's participation in selecting the next president of the united states. we want you to request your insistence and investigating these events, determining if they violate long-standing wisconsin law, and helping deter others from ever attempting such a grave and brazen offense against our democracy. well governor tony evers and other electors were convening in the state capital on december 14th, a separate group of individuals gathered elsewhere in the state capital, they executed a competing set of documents, reporting to cast wisconsin's votes for a candidate who lost wisconsin's popular election, and therefore had no and legal incitement to those votes. they did so without advance notice, or public access, or media tension. after their, meeting these individuals transmitted the documents they had created, to the president of the u.s. senate, to the wisconsin secretary of state, to the archivist of the united states, into the chief judge of the district court for the western district of washington. excuse me of wisconsin. these fraudulent electors, acted without any legal mandate whatsoever, and with the intention, that the false documents they produced, would be received as valid documentation for the purpose of introducing the u.s. congress, to credit the wrong candidates with having earned wisconsin's ten electoral votes. the fraudulent electors met in a concerted effort to ensure they would be mistaken, as a result of their deliberate forgery and fraud. for wisconsin's legitimate presidential electors chosen by the mechanism prescribe by the u.s. constitution and wisconsin law. through these, actions the fraudulent electors thought to undermine the presidential election, and achieve through fraud, a result that their chosen candidate has been unable to secure through a free in fair election. or through a bevy of merit list lawsuits, challenging the results of the vote. we rate to draw your attention to these actions of these electors, and re-request your office immediately investigate the individuals responsible, with an eye toward assessing whether criminal charges or appropriate. they then suggest some possible charges that might apply in a circumstance. including forgery, falsely assuming to act as a public officer, official misconduct, is conspiracy and others. it has been more than ten months now since that referral was sent to that state elections commission and to the milwaukee county district attorney. we don't know if any criminal investigation was undertaken by the state prosecutor there. certainly there has been no public facing charges that we have seen for any of those people who took part in the forgery in the fake electors scheme. i have to tell you, in fact, there have been no negative consequences at all for any of those ten republicans who signed off their names to those forged documents. one of them was appointed to certify in the states election commission. he had previously been on it. they reappointed him on it this year. it is one of the entities that is supposed to be investigating one of the people who impersonated. they ought to be prosecuted. so far it seems that guy doesn't think should be prosecuted. nor does he apparently think you should excuse himself from the election commission's decision on that. why would i recuse myself? it's only about me. what happens when a group of people trying to falsify election results face no consequences for trying it. even when they went so far as to forge the documents they needed to try to pass themselves off as the real thing? what happens when there are no consequences for trying something like that? just drops down the memory hole and we all pretend it didn't happen? in the case of wisconsin, and that states republican, the metaphor you are probably looking for comes from the medical hold. in the case of wisconsin, when you ignore something like that, just pretending it didn't happen, it metastasizes. here is what i mean by that. here's the washington post somewhat is going on in wisconsin. quote, one of the investigators reexamining the 2020 election results in wisconsin on behalf of the gop is the state president of the group that unsuccessfully sued to overturn the election results. another worked as a deputy in president donald trump's white house presidential personnel office. at the time that office was known for reading out people to be disloyal to president trump. a third is an arkansas lawyer who represented trump's campaign during last year's wisconsin recount. a process that confirmed that joe biden won by roughly 21,000 votes. all of these people are being paid with wisconsin taxpayer money as part of a legislative back investigation into the 2020 election results. an investigation that has picked up steam in recent weeks. the inquiry is the recent gambit by republicans to re-examine the 2020 election nationally. it makes little pretense of truth l.e.d.. it is being led by figures who openly embraced false claims of fraud. the former president personally lobbied state law makers to pursue the wisconsin investigation. and spurred on other ballot reviews in the country. leading on other legislators to revisit the vote after a year americans went to the polls. in wisconsin, the state is likely to see most of the nation's most competitive races in 2022 for governor. there are not multiple efforts to scrutinize saw the last election was run. including a recommendation by the county sheriff to prosecute and joe state election officials. election efforts a wisconsin has now left arizona as the leading frontline in the war over the legitimacy of the 2020 election. this fall, the racine county sheriff recommended the five of the six members of the bipartisan wisconsin election should be criminally charged overrules they adopted last years after hours of debate in public meetings about how to and the absentee balloting at nursing homes during the pandemic. separately, a gop state representative has introduced a resolution calling for members of the state election commissions to resign or else face efforts to remove them from office and to criminally investigate their activities. another republican representative has introduced a measure to decertify president biden's win in the state. a move that drew both public priests and private encouragement from trump according to the former president. meanwhile, a former head of the legislative investigation ordered a county sheriff to jail. the elected democratic senators of green bay and of madison. one of the targeted majors tells the polls that it is quote, laughable and horrifying at the same time. we don't think there is any legal basis to this threat. but it is a threat. i think it is designed specifically to try and intimidate. you start by pretending trump won. nothing happens. you take it far enough that you forged documents trying to make it seem like trump won. nothing happens. you form one of these election audits, one of the reviews of the election results. nothing happens. even though the taxpayers are paying for the things that you staffed entirely with trump loyalists who have already sued to overturn the election, who have let stop the steal rallies, who are publicly committed to the cause of really installing trump. you stuff the taxpayer funded audit entirely with people like that. but still, nothing happens. why wouldn't you see how far you can push it? why wouldn't you try to arrest election officials? why wouldn't you try to arrest mayors from democratic cities when you've gotten this far and nothing's happened to you? why wouldn't you just keep going and keep pushing? the republicans in the wisconsin state announced last week that they are keeping their election audit and reviews going into 2022. and they are going to give it more taxpayer funding. they were going to finish it this year but it is going so good. we have been watching the slow motion collapse in wisconsin pretty closely. i think it is important to note that wisconsin is watching a pretty closely to. and there is pushback. the editorial board recently saying the praises of this one republican state senator who is refusing to go along with what the rest of the party is doing. her name is state senator kathy bernie. >> this is a charade. there's a simple explanation for almost every single thing that people accused election officials of doing. these made-up things that people do to jazz up the base is just despicable. and i don't think any elected legislator should ever play that game. we have a great system here. and no one should falsely accuse election officials of cheating. they say that we don't have confidence in milwaukee. and we don't have confidence in madison. just remember, you take it down to the micro level. there are volunteer poll workers, practically volunteer, working every single pull. and every single poll has people that are just as honest as you are night working that poll. no election is perfect. but there is not evidence of intentional malfeasance. no evidence that the election in 2020 wasn't accurate. when benjamin franklin came out of the convention and our constitution was created, he was asked what kind of a government do we have. and he said a republic if we can keep it. we are in jeopardy of losing it. >> wisconsin republican state senator, kathy bernier, standing up in wisconsin to what the other members of her party are doing there. and she is paying the price for it. she tweeted this week about how all the right demands in her party for resignation. she said all those right-wing demands are making her reconsider her plans to retire. she said that is motivation. but other people in the state, other important institutions, are standing up for her. she is for example getting bold headline support from newspapers like the journal sentinel. the capital times in madison has just denounced the republican election review there as a, quote, train wreck. saying it's stuffed by a team of legal misfits solo need that even trump avoids associating with them. the wisconsin state journal just posted that u.s. senator, ron johnson, has encouraged the state republicans to keep pretending trump one and to keep it up to screw with the states election. he also encourage them to have republicans in the legislature just fully take control of all elections in the state. senator johnson is tying them to claim the power to do it and to take over. just in time it should be noted for his reelection campaign for the u.s. senate which will happen this upcoming year. stuff is appreciably crazy right now in wisconsin. we should've seen it coming a win ago when tens of thousands republican forged documents. and they forged it to make it look like trump had won their states. so that they could be subs -- if the january six plot worked. we should've seen it come when they tried that. we definitely should've seen it coming when they faced zero consequences. if you give them a take they will use it. and this apparently is the marathon. the fight back though is also real. and it is important for the whole country to see that. we've got more on that ahead, stay with us. stay with us feel stuck with credit card debt? move to sofi and feel what it's like to get your money right. ♪ move your high-interest debt to a sofi personal loan. you could save with low rates and no fees. earn $10 just for viewing your rate and get your money right. ♪ ever notice how stiff clothes and get your money right. can feel rough on your skin? it's because they rub against you creating friction. and your clothes rub against you all day. for softer clothes that are gentle on your skin, try downy free & gentle. just pour into the rinse dispenser and downy will soften your clothes without dyes or perfumes. the towel washed with downy is softer, fluffier, and gentler on your skin. try downy free & gentle. recognized by the national psoriasis foundation and national eczema 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or plan to become pregnant. if you can become pregnant, use birth control during treatment and for 3 months after you stop taking zeposia. don't let uc stop you from doing you. ask your doctor about once-daily zeposia. small businesses like yours make gift-giving possible. don't let uc stop you from doing you. now, comcast business has an exclusive gift for you. introducing the gift of savings sale. for a limited time, ask how to get a great deal for your business. and get up to a $500 prepaid card with select bundles when you switch to the network that can deliver gig speeds to the most businesses. or get started with internet and voice for $64.99 per month with a 2-year price guarantee. give your business the gift of savings today. a year ago, when ten comcast business. powering possibilities. republicans in the state of wisconsin, forged election documents and try to proclaim themselves to be, fake electors for donald trump in the electoral college, instead of the states real one for joe biden. in attorney from a group called law forward in wisconsin. wrote to the milwaukee county district attorney and referred those republicans for potential criminal prosecution. from among other, things forgery. because they did forged documents that were designed to make it look like they were the real electors, when they were not. that does it seem to have gone anywhere as far as we can tell. but once you get away with trying something like, that as you might imagine. it might be an incentive for things to just get, worsened things in wisconsin have gotten considerably worse on this front of her sons. joining us now to talk about some of the fight, back is jeffrey mondale, he's the president in the council of law forward. mister mondale, thank you for joining us today, i appreciate you being here. >> thanks for having me rachel. >> we've been watching these dynamics play out in wisconsin, from afar. let me ask you if i've scrutiny in this up in the telling or gotten any of it the wrong way around? >> no, you got it right rachel. and you did something super important, which is you've connected the, dots because the two things in your intro, that struck me the hardest, where the concept that this has metastasizing, and that things in wisconsin are now crazy. i think both of those things are exactly, right what's happening in wisconsin is we're having a lot of individual issues, that people are treating's individual issues but they're, not they're all connected. you connected those dots and it's incredibly helpful. it shows how profound the danger to our democracy in wisconsin is. >> tell me about the decision that you and the group that you're part of, made back in february. to ask milwaukee county's district attorney, to open a criminal investigation into what they tried to pull off around those electors. that was referred to the county da there in milwaukee, and also to the states election commission. we looked into it. we've been unable to determine if any investigation was ever opens, if any state or local prosecutors are investigating this event. do you know if anybody ever followed up on a? is it a dead, letters this potentially is still alive question? >> i believe it's still a live question. i should note that law forward is a nonprofit law, from dedicated to democracy in wisconsin. we don't do things just on our own, this is an effort we undertook with the service employees international union, there are a client in wisconsin. on this issue. and they had come to us and said that they thought it was incredibly important to seek some accountability, for exactly the reasons that you outlined. in your introduction. and, we felt that it we agreed with them, it is vital, not enough people knew that this happens, in fact, it's not clear to me that the district attorney's office even knew that this had happened, in the shadows of the capital of december 14. so, we wanted to bring attention to, this and we did that by asking the elections commission to undertake a civil investigation. by asking the milwaukee district attorney's office, to undertake a criminal investigation. and by asking the offers of lawyer regulation in wisconsin, which regulates ethics rules, for lawyers, to investigate and determine whether one of the fraudulent electors, is a member of the bar. and he might have violated legal ethics rules. today, we haven't heard anything, back it's been more than ten months, but we do believe, that the wisconsin elections commission, is actively working on this. because there was a meeting in late october, where mr. spindle, one of the commissioners, and one of the fraudulent electors, reference the fact that they had been discussing this in closed session. >> am i right that he's trying to avoid recusing themselves from that group's own decision about whether or not there should be action taken in response to the fraudulent electors thing. he was one of the fraudulent electors. he does not want to recuse, he wants to participate in the decision-making about what should happen to himself. >> it's a little bit hard to tell, i think that's the best we understand. when we did ask the elections commission, we filed a motion asking that he recuse himself. and there was a briefing schedule, where everybody who had a view on this was supposed to share that view with the elections, commission mr. spend dull did not submit any arguments for briefing, but then in late october, there was a meeting where he seemed to be complaining about the idea of having to recuse himself. and that does seem to suggest he's resisting. this but we are really not sure. i think as your laughter point, so it's fundamental to american justice, that one does not get to be the judge in one zone case. and so mr. spindle was one of the fraudulent electors, he should not be entitled to determine whether what they did was proper or not. >> mister mondale, one of the other things going on, here one of the reasons i wanted to talk to you, tonight is because of the manifest escalation in terms of how radical the republicans have become on this issue. and how i would say emboldened i think they have been in my hypothesis, and that's because of a lack of consequences for everything they've tried thus far. even as it's been sort of increasingly outrageous, increasingly pushing the envelope. as i understand, it you represent the mayor of green bay. and the guy who's conducting this republican election review, is threatening to jail your clients. that seems to me, threatening to put a mayor in jail. for not going along with it in a way that the investigation finds compelling. that would seem to me to be a significant escalation. i wonder if from the inside of that fight, it just sort of feels like the next run on the ladder and not a major escalation. >> it does feel like a major escalation, yes we represent the city of green bay, angry by officials. you are really proud of holding a full, fair, free safe, secure election. in the midst of a pandemic that wisconsin law was not prepared for. and they did everything right, in holding this election. the investigation is baseless. there have been a legion, of challenges, lawsuits, complaints to the elections, commissioned complaints to the green bay ethics commission, and thus far, every single one of them has been turned away. now we have mr. gableman, who's leading this investigation for the wisconsin legislature, and he does not have authority under wisconsin law. it's pretty clear, that it is not have the authority to compel people to sit for private depositions, he can compel people to testify to the legislature. but he is attempting to jail the mayors of madison wisconsin in green bay wisconsin, the second and third largest cities in the state, he's attempting to jail, them because they will not sit, for these extra legal depositions, in some kind of contemporary star chamber, in an office building that he is rented space in. in the suburbs. >> jeffrey mandel, is the president and we had council of law forward, who is absolutely part of this fight. that is joined in wisconsin. thank you for helping us understand what's going on in your state sir, thank you. >> thank you. have a great night. >> much more ahead here tonight, stay with us. h more ahead here tonight, stay with us are you tired of clean clothes that just don't smell clean? what if your clothes could stay fresh for weeks? now they can. downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters keep your laundry smelling fresh waaaay longer than detergent alone. pour a cap of downy unstopables into your washing machine before each load. and enjoy fresher smelling laundry. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. shop online for downy unstopables, including our new, lighter scent. omega-3 from fish oil is an important nutrient for heart health. qunol's ultra purified omega -3, is sourced only from wild caught ocean fish, not farm raised and comes in an easy to swallow mini pill. the brand i trust is qunol. look at all of these cars, this was miami florida today, everybody sitting in that long long line of cars. waiting to get a covid test. this was a testing line in boston massachusetts today. were it was cold. boston's airport at logan, people have been lining up for tests inside the terminal. yesterday the line in washington d.c. curbed all the way around ferreted square. all these people queuing up to get covid tested. by nightfall tonight, people were still in lines across the city. this is outside of firehouse in d.c., that was offering testing. this was philadelphia pennsylvania, the line stretching all the way around the block. again it was cold. this is new york times square, busiest part of america's largest city. that is a covid testing line today. so many people showed up, they had to set up stations to control the line. if he tried to get a covid test in the last week or so, chances are you've waited in one of these massive lines. or you've spent time trying to find an open appointment anywhere near where you live. or maybe you've gone in and out of drugstores to see if there's any at home test, magically still on the shelves. to the biggest drugstore chains in the country, cvs and walgreens, are reportedly overwhelmed by the demand for that at home covid, test the struggles have struggled to keep these kits and stop. supplies are dry online as well. today, from the white house, president biden announced new measures, the measures will be taking in the next few weeks. to try to make testing more widely available, and easier to get, the presidents of the u.s. government will be buying 500 million of those at home test kits. and will mail them for free to any american who wants one. that is set to start next month in january. it seems like a big undertaking. the president also announced today, the administration will be opening new federal testing sites across the country. one of those facilities is supposed to open in new york city before the end of this weeks. it's already tuesday. presidents today also tried to reassure those of us who are having flashbacks to what life was like at the start of the pandemic. he said today that despite this new surge, we are in a much different position than we were two years ago. >> another question folks are asking, is are we going back to march 2020? not this last march 2021, but march 2020. when the pandemic first hit. that's what i keep getting asked. the answer is absolutely no. no. this is not march of 2020. 200 million people are fully vaccinated. we are prepared. we know we are. we just have to stay focused. >> we do have tools to fight the virus today that we did not have at the start of this pandemic. we have these miraculous vaccines. we have boosters. we have at home tests, when you can get one. we have already supplies of these things, as basic as gowns and gloves and masks, and ventilators. we have some drugs, this seemed to work as treatment, if you get infected. drugs that work some of the time, if you get them early. and so on all of those important, ways it is certainly not march of 2020. but it felt like the world was collapsing on itself. but, knowing we've got all those tools, it doesn't really shake the feeling. it doesn't really shake the déjà vu. joining us now is doctor david kessler. he's been a frequent source of guidance for the show. is the top science adviser for the biden administration's covid response. doctor, it's always an honor to have some your time. thanks for being here tonight. >> thanks for having me rachel. >> we've talked a couple of times in the last couple of, weeks about the emerging body of knowledge, that can help us understand, the current state of the pandemic. the affects of this new variant. the omicron variant. we now know that it is the majority of the covid that is circulating in the country. do we know more about the effectiveness of our vaccines against it? do we know more about whether it is less severe, less likely to cause severe illness in people who do get infected? omicron is among the most highly transmissible respiratory viruses in our memory. the number of cases is exploding. but the most important thing is in vaccines and boosters are working. we have to understand what is going on and what will happen. there will be a lot of breakthrough cases. if you have been vaccinated and boosted, you may get infected. but you will likely have mild symptoms. that is always in biology. there is always exceptions. and vaccinated and not boosted with symptoms, we'll show symptoms. unvaccinated are in the intensive care units today. this variant is going to infect record numbers of people. vaccines and boosters prevent serious complications. >> for unvaccinated people, who get infected with this mutated strain of the coronavirus, do we know whether they are any less likely to be severely ill than if they have been infected with delta or the original strain of covid that we contended with? >> let me tell you exactly what i know. i have set for days with our scientific colleagues from south africa. there are fewer hospitalizations for case in south africa. there are fewer icu admissions. there is a shorter length of stay. there is no increase in the auctions joint requirement. so all of that suggests that it may be less severe. that may be due to different demographics in south africa. different rates of national immunity. or maybe it is the virus itself. or it may be a combination. some of the unofficial work that i am seeing is very preliminary. it may suggest that it may be slightly less severe. but we have to confirmed that. we are going to know in the next week or two. the cases are increasing rapidly. keeping an eye on the number of hospitalizations is key. the difference between the numbers in africa is that we are starting with a higher baseline. we are starting with a lot more cases and a lot more people in the hospital. so it worries me even if it ends up being less severe. if you have fewer hospitalizations per case, but you have more cases you're still going to have more hospitalization and that's on top of delta. we are going to get through this but the most important thing is the presence of it today. vaccine some boosters work. it doesn't mean you are not going to get infected but you are going to do well through this. your symptoms are going to be very mild or you may be asymptomatic. >> doctor kessler, to hear you say that the numbers are exploding or that there is going to be a massive number of new infections, i think americans watching this tonight hearing you say this in your very sober and clear way want to know how much they should change their lives to account for this in reality and for these prospects that are bearing down on us. if people have been vaccinated and boosted, should they not change their holiday plans? should they assume that they are as protected as it can be? and it's safe to travel and to see people? obviously people who are in a very difficult and dangerous position are those who are unvaccinated. people who aren't boosted, need to get boosted to have that kind of immunity that you are talking about. but for those who have both, should they keep their plans or should they drop them? >> risk is a matter of personal individual assessment. if something is important for you to do, of course, go and do it. be vaccinated. the boosted. wear a mask. where a good quality mask. it is important to do that. but rachel, i said last week and i still believe, it the most important thing is that we have to up the level of vigilance it least for the next number of weekend. it's an individual choice that we each have to make. i certainly i've being more careful and that is what i would advise. >> doctor kessler, i'm gonna let you go now. i know that your time is precious. i would ask you if you wouldn't mind coming back sometime soon. i'd love to talk with you in particular about treatment. we have talked about about monoclonal antibodies, the anti viral pills that are being considered as treatments by the fda. i'd love to talk to you in the days ahead as we start to learn more about future treatments and the treatments that we've got or the ones that are immediately on the horizon. >> i'd be happy to do that. i can tell you that my colleagues and fda are working hard tonight on exactly that. so more to come rachael. >> doctor david kessler, the chief science adviser to the biden administration covid response. as always, it's an honor. >> thank. you >> will be right back, stay with us. sta with us. ustomize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wooo, yeaa, woooooo and, by switching you could even save 665 dollars. hey tex, can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ hi 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