he's looking into alleged tax fraud schemes at donald trump's company. you can almost hear the complaints from trump's lawyers coming. she just launched a campaign for governor. well, then came the next breaker. shortly after news of the deposition broke, james announced she's dropping out of the race for governor, saying in a statement there are a number of important investigations and cases that are under way and i intend to finish the job. trump's attorney has now responded, writing in part, this has politicized the whole investigation and mr. trump is right when he says this is a witch hunt. we will wait until we see what they show us in their subpoena and we will respond with our motions. joining me now is nbc news investigations correspondent tom winter. "washington post" political investigations reporter josh dossey who broke the story earlier today and former assistant manhattan district attorney, rebecca fee. josh, you broke the story. break it down for us. >> so tish james is demanding that former president trump sit in her office in new york on january 7th and answer questions about potential fraud and his businesses for her civil investigation into his company. what she and her office are pursuing is that the former president made wildly different variations on his property values based on what was beneficial to him and whether he committed any fraud by valuing them wildly differently based on who he was talking to. as you said earlier, katy, there is also a criminal probe going on. former president trump has not been charged with any wrongdoing in this. and his team certainly is quite critical of leticia james. but it will be the second deposition he's had to sit for since he left the presidency. it's an investigation that's quite concerned him in recent months, he's talked about it regularly, that he's fearful of what they're doing to him and how they're out to get him. the former president would have to come to the new york attorney general's office and under oath talk about his business. >> tom, there are a lot of different investigations within the new york offices into trump and his organization. can you just try to separate them out for us and explain what we're seeing here? >> the good news is a lot of the topic areas are pretty much the same. so as josh kind of alluded to, this investigation, the civil component and the criminal component, are tied to a lot of the same things. this idea of whether or not the trump organization, the former president himself, people who worked for the former president, were in fact inflating the value of his properties for the banks while at the same time perhaps for insurance companies or for various tax entities, lowering the -- kind of the value of those real estate properties. the same thing with all sorts of other facets of his business. so it has to do with the valuations and what they put on their books. >> there were some wild numbers that they would use. >> yeah, i mean, over the course of this, at different points, we've seen all sorts of varied valuations. we've seen when the president is trying to calculate or justify his wealth when discussing his wealth with various magazines, as far as his net worth, where he stands in that, versus some of his filings while he was president, the value of certain real estate properties and the revenues that he would say that they would make. >> $900,000 to $25 million depending on who he was talking to. >> these things volleyed back and forget. that's why we are where we are today with respect to these investigations. we've got to kind of start to delineate things between the criminal and the civil side. this deposition is on the civil side. if the president were to answer questions, and i don't think anybody expects him to answer questions in this even if he's called, just, you know, from a fifth amendment purpose, why would you want to say something in a civil deposition that could potentially hurt you in a criminal investigation? now, if he actually does sit and answer questions, i think this could go on for not just hours but for days. i'm sure they want to ask him all sort of things. but in a civil proceeding, you want to ask specific questions. mr. trump, did you direct somebody to do something? did you direct allen weisselberg to change the books here? because in a civil lawsuit, the pleading the fifth amendment there actually gains you something in the totality of the case. it is something you can present to the jury. whereas on the criminal side, i plead the fifth, you get nothing from me, you better get this on your own in your own investigation. that's where the two things are separate. how much this actually helps the criminal investigation -- >> it could color the jury's opinion in a civil suit. >> 100%. >> rebecca, i know it's a big open question, as tom said, unlikely that he would answer questions in a civil deposition. but if he did, i mean, how does that affect his criminal case? >> you know, if i were his lawyer, i would be extremely reluctant to let him testify. i mean, you don't really have as many choices in this particular situation but anything he says under these circumstances could expose him in that criminal case. so you have this individual who is just notoriously undisciplined and believes that his intuition is better than advice from counsel. and so under these circumstances, i would do everything to fight that subpoena. but as you were just saying, there are very few tools left. one of those tools is, you know, to argue oh, this is all politically motivated. but that's not going to be very successful. so really the only successful tool left for you is to plead the fifth. now, that's a problem for the former president for a number of reasons. one, he has been on the record repeatedly saying that only the mob pleads the fifth, and no innocent person would ever plead the fifth. so this is a public relations disaster for him. he's kind of caught in this position. and if he does plead the fifth, as we were saying, a negative inference can be drawn by the jury, which means the jury can look at that in the civil case and say, oh, that's a sign that he's guilty. in the criminal case they could not do that, but on the civil side they could. so he's left with not very many choices. we'll see what he ends up choosing. >> the statements, that only the mob pleads the fifth, politically speaking or pr speaking, for the public, that's one thing. but can that be presented to the jury as statements he made in the past? is that in the record, or is that separate entirely for this? >> there's always this situation with the former president where he's waging two battles, one in the courtroom, and one for the public. no, it's not relevant from a legal perspective, but it's certainly relevant from a public relations perspective. he wants to appear tough and he wants to appear innocent. how does he do that, having been on the record? i suppose he could say this is a politically motivated witch hunt and therefore my pleading the fifth isn't any kind of admission of guilt. but, you know, people have heard that. >> josh, you covered him for so long, none of these things seem to matter to anybody who supports him. it doesn't matter what he says, no matter how often he contradicts himself. but i want to ask you about tish james. she announces she wants to depose the president, former president, in this civil suit. as i said, you can almost hear donald trump's lawyers saying, hey, hold on, this isn't fair, you're running for governor. then a second later, she drops out of the race. so what do we know about why she took herself out of the race for governor? >> well, i don't think we know the full story yet, katy. but indications from talking to a number of people in new york politics is that she was trailing in the polls. kathy hochul, who took over after governor cuomo resigned, has a pretty solid lead in the polls, number one. and tish james, according to multiple people who know her, enjoys being attorney general more than she actually enjoys campaigning. politico had an interesting story yesterday about her campaign that was basically nonexistent, was not doing many events, was staying basically in her office, and she had not been out as many gubernatorial candidates had been. frankly, she was losing, not winning the race for governor of new york, in the democratic primary. the attorney general spot is seen as more of a safe reelection campaign for her in new york than risking a run for governor. >> really interesting. josh dawsey for being with us. tom winter and rebecca rophe, thank you as well. new information about what the january 6th committee has in its possession. liz cheney says mark meadows has turned over many messages from his private cellphone about january 6th. joining me is nbc correspondent ali professor and georgetown law professor george butler. ali, break down what the committee has today. >> katy, it sounds from these tweets from liz cheney a bolstering of what we heard from chairman bennie thompson yesterday. we know mark meadows isn't complying with the subpoena from the committee anymore. but he did turn off documents including texts from his personal cellphone. there were conversations with at least one member of congress about a plan to install different electors. there were also text messages with people who were organizing the rallies on the ellipse. so we have a sense now of what the conversations were that then-chief-of-staff mark meadows was having with people at day of the insurrection. it's why the committee wanted to talk to him so badly and it's why, when it seemed he was going to cooperate, they pumped the brakes on the contempt referral because it seemed like he could cooperate and the most important thing for them was to actually get the information as opposed to making the point in courts. but now it looks like that' where this is going to go. mark meadows is suing each of the individual members of the january 6th select committee as well as the committee itself. katy, there's no more trumpian tactic than suing the people investigating you because they're investigating you too much. that's effectively the argument that mark meadows is making. while his case is going to end up mired in the courts, that's really where the trump allies want it, because that's where it will take the longest to be adjudicated. there's also another question, though, when you think about mark meadows turning over text messages from a private cellphone, thompson referenced this in his letter to meadows' attorney yesterday. will those documents and text messages, because they were on a personal phone, were they turned over to the national archives as part of the presidential records act? that is an open question. and the national archives are currently wrapped up in federal appellate court. the january 6th committee is trying to get those documents and records from the national archives. the trump legal team is arguing against that. but now there's sort of an open question of what of meadows' ended up in that tranche of documents, because he was clearly using a personal cellphone on that day in addition to other methods of communication. >> paul, let's talk about the personal cellphone and let's also talk about the book that meadows released. how much of a claim does he have to executive privilege if he's using a personal cellphone, number one, and number two, if he's written a book where he's revealing private information about the president in the public sphere for profit. >> he has a very weak play. he's claiming deference to trump's executive privilege but president biden has stated that meadows is free to testify. most legal scholars believe that the privilege belongs to the incumbent president, not the former president. the supreme court has never ruled on this issue. but in any event, as you've noted, meadows may have already waived any privilege he has, because he already turned over some documents to the committee. also, the privilege does not apply to criminal or political activity. so meadows could still be forced to answer questions about that. and in the end, the committee could get some text message records from the phone companies. this is why this is so important. meadows already provided the panel with some valuable evidence, including a text message on january 6th about trying to get trump to make a statement about the insurrection. but meadows is withholding about 1,000 other texts from the committee, claiming privilege. and apparently what meadows was willing to do was not good enough for the house panel. >> let me ask you this. if meadows' whole goal is to delay this in the courts, as has been the goal for many of the trump allies and trump's own lawyers, how long is this going to take to go through the courts? >> so the dc federal courts seem to be on to trump's strategy. bannon, who is being charged with contempt, wanted a trial in october. we all know that the goal is to delay these issues from coming to court and being decided until the midterms. the hope is that if the gop takes over the house, then the january 6th investigation is derailed. but so far, the dc courts don't seem to be letting them get away with that strategy. in trump's lawsuit on executive privilege, the federal district court decided that in a month. the appellate court heard the argument in a month. in federal court time, katy, that counts as warp speed. >> ali, how much of an indication do you have from the committee about their focus right now? is meadows a key player for them? and given what we've seen from his text messages, i guess how would he not be? >> and that's exactly it, katy, he is central to this as they try to piece together what the former president was doing on january 6th, as well as what members of his inner orbit were doing on that day. because you look at the other people who they're talking to here. they've clearly branched out into talking to people like the top aide to mike pence at the time, marc short. all these different people who can speak to where these key players were on the day in question. we also know, though, that the committee's focus isn't just on trump and pence and the white house, but instead on the larger efforts for dis- and misinformation that were being funneled out, that led to the big lie, that really did feed the emotions of the people who infiltrated the capitol on january 6th. so it's a wide-ranging investigation, but it's important, when you see all the effort going into mark meadows and holding him accountable and trying to get him to cooperate, it's clear he's a central figure in this because of the position he held. and that's why we've seen them go to such great lengths to try to get him to cooperate, to allow him certain postponements and to allow him to have the potential to cooperate with the subpoena. ultimately of course we know he didn't. but at the same time that's clearly what the committee wanted. >> also i'm so very much struck that he was using a personal cellphone on these days, especially given all the history we have between personal and government devices. i don't want to hash over the 2015-2016 election, but you think we would have been over that. ali vitali, thank you so much, paul butler, thank you as well. public health officials say delta is still our biggest threat. and later, president biden goes one on one with ukrainian president zelenskiy as the threat of a russian invasion escalates. and sun, sand, and soldiers. a popular vacation destination turns so dangerous, the military deployed to protect tourists. this... is the planning effect. this is how it feels to have a dedicated fidelity advisor looking at your full financial picture. this is what it's like to have a comprehensive wealth plan with tax-smart investing strategies designed to help you keep more of what you earn. and set aside more for things like healthcare, or whatever comes down the road. this is "the planning effect" from fidelity. 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>> reporter: that's right, delta continues to be the driving force here, although officials are of course alarmed because now there's two confirmed cases of omicron here. and that means they're going to be fighting two variants at the same time, as we head into this really critical period around christmas and new year's. they think the uptick they're seeing here, not just in cases but in hospitalizations, there are 575 people hospitalized around the state right now, they say this is really connected to thanksgiving, it's connected to people increasingly gathering inside as the weather has been getting colder. and people traveling and feeling a bit looser right now. they're trying to combat this with a message of vaccination. of course for people who haven't gotten any shots yet or who have young kids who have only recently become eligible to get their first and second shots, but they're also really targeting booster shots right now. this is a state that often led the way, katy. many here were the first in the country to get vaccinated. this is the first state that reached herd immunity. that means there's also a lot of people here who got their shots a long time ago and frankly their immunity is waning and they need more antibodies now. >> we are encouraging people to get their booster shots. we want to ensure that our children are vaccinated. we are following very safe mitigation strategies in our schools to protect our children. but the message is clear that we need to have everyone vaccinated. we are seeing people get first and second doses now. it's a smaller number, obviously. but some people take a longer time. >> reporter: alongside that messaging about getting boosted, state officials are working with city official here in stamford on an excelsior pass or the vaccine passport we're used to in new york city. this strategy will let employers and venues start getting a real sense of who is and isn't vaccinated among their workforce and among the folks planning to visit those sites over the holidays. they see that as a critical part of kind of keeping track and having their defenses up as, again, we fight two variants at one time at the end of this year. >> remember, get boosted, if you can't go to a site like the one antonia is at or if you're having a hard time getting an appointment, do what i did, call your local pharmacy, or go late in the day, and say do you have any extra, and usually they do. it's easy to do it. antonia hylton, thank you very much. dr. s.e. reed is an emergency physician in pennsylvania. doctor, thank you so much for being here with us. tell me who you're seeing in your er. >> we are overwhelmingly seeing critically ill patients. but i can't stress enough that we are seeing other critically ill patients and not just critically ill covid patients. >> of the covid patients that you are seeing there, are they vaccinated? >> i don't have the exact statistics in front of me, i'll be honest. but i can tell you the great majority of patients we are seeing are unvaccinated. >> when you have unvaccinated patients taking up space in your er, i was reading an op-ed from another physician just the other day who said that because so many of them are coming to the emergency room, it's not allowing others who are in dire emergency, emergent need, to get the access that they need. i know you said you're seeing both in your er, but has there come a point or are you worried there will come a point when you have so many covid patients, you can't treat a broken bone or emergency kidney failure or a heart attack, some other emergent case that comes into your er? >> i'll be honest, we worry about that every day. we are already seeing the trickle-down of practicing what we call waiting room medicine and making diagnoses and starting treatments in hallway beds. and that wouldn't normally be something that we would have to do to function. >> when you talk to the unvaccinated who are very sick, do they express regret for not getting the vaccine? do they wish they could change things? >> i have seen both, if i'm honest. i have had some patients, as we're talking about, you know, getting them admitted to the hospital, as they need more intensive care, ask when they can get the vaccine. but i've seen the flip side as well, where they're still a bit concerned about the vaccine and are somewhat resistant to that idea. >> a lot of folks out there might think, hey, listen, there are treatments now, i can get a monoclonal antibody treatment at the hospital and that will be fine. remdesivir or something of that nature. do you have that ability to cure somebody if they come into the hospital? >> we do have those treatments available. and our infectious disease colleagues who are brilliant, have vetted all of the evidence-based treatments that we're using. but the vaccine is the most effective measure that we have to prevent severe illness and prevent hospitalization and death. >> dr. essie reed, thank you for coming on. we wish you good luck and hope, hope, that your hospital does not get overwhelmed in the coming weeks with delta and now omicron. >> thank you very much for having me. >> thank you. coming up, with the russians massing on the border, president biden speaks with the president of ukraine. my colleague richard engel is on the ground with troops in ukraine as they prepare for what could be next. on] ♪ i'm a ganiac, ganiac, check my drawers ♪ [sfx: sniffs / long exhale] ♪ and my clothes smell so much fresher than before ♪ ♪ yeah, yeah ♪ ♪ i'm a ganiac, ganiac, check my drawers ♪ ♪ it's a freshness like i've never smelled before ♪ one sniff of gain flings and you'll be a gainiac too! the only detergent with oxiboost and febreze. in the face of sustained and alarming challenges to democracy, universal human rights, and all around the world, democracy needs champions. here in the united states, we know as well as anyone that renewing our democracy and strengthening our democratic institution requires constant effort. >> president biden addressed world leaders in the first ever summit for democracy earlier today. the virtual event hosted more than 100 government representatives and other leaders as part of the white house's plan to combat corruption, promote human rights, and defend democracy against the rising threat of autocracy. and on that issue, president biden spoke with ukrainian president vladimir zelenskiy this afternoon to discuss diplomatic solutions to the standoff with russia. biden is betting crippling sanctions will be enough to get russia's president putin to back off from invading ukraine. joining me is nbc correspondent mike memoli. mike, what can you tell us about what the white house is saying about that call? >> reporter: katy, you saw images from that call with president zelenskiy. that call began an hour ago. we have no indication that it has wrapped up yet, and they have a pretty full agenda. the white house said the president will be underscoring the u.s. support for ukraine's territorial sovereignty. he would also be giving zelenskiy a readout of his summit with putin. he's holding a virtual summit over the next few days, an idea that candidate biden put forward 2 1/2 years ago. we've heard him talk so often about this idea that the 21st century will be defined by the contest of autocraies like russia and democracies like the united states. they couldn't have timed this more efficiently, ukraine effectively the battlefield between democracies and autocracies at the moment. what will be interesting, as we wait for a readout of this call as it wraps up, what is the u.s. commitment for additional military and defensive equipment that was performed. we heard jake sullivan talk about that the other day. and what will they say about the complicated and thorny question of nato membership for ukraine? this was putin's red line, when he spoke with the president a few days ago, he indicated he wanted sort of a legal framework spelling out -- legal agreement that ukraine would never become a member of nato. this is something the u.s. has ruled out. ukrainian membership is still a long ways off, so we'll be trying to get some answers to that as this call wraps up. >> in this meeting with other nations about defending democracy, has the white house had any comment, have you had any discussions with the white house about an article that bart gelman did in "the atlantic" talking about how january 6th was just a practice, and the moves being made in state legislatures around the country to install people sympathetic to donald trump and sympathetic to this idea that the election was stolen, are they worried about the threat to democracy here at home in 2024? >> reporter: that's an article that's keeping a lot of people up at night, gelman was spot on in his predictions what have we would see leading up to the calling of the election and some of the challenges that followed. now, it's interesting, as i mentioned, this summit is something president biden called for as a candidate. the issue of potential democracies backsliding, he gave a speech a few months ago in which he pointed out there are fewer democracies now than this were in just the last 20 years, it's been a real concern of his. it's especially a heightened concern now that we're seeing democracy at risk here in the united states. there are certainly questions about the u.s. standing to even host this kind of summit when there are such challenges. but you heard biden address this, not specifically, but refer to it in his comments this morning that we though there are some challenges here at home. the question is, is he doing enough, and his party is questioning whether he's doing enough to try to deal with this in the future. >> mike memoli at the white house, thanks so much. nearly 100,000 russian troops have amassed along the eastern border of ukraine, eastern, northern, and southern borders, frankly. u.s. intelligence suggests more are on the way, in addition to the thousands of russian-backed separatists that are already inside ukraine's borders. ukraine's generals tell "the new york times" that if russia chooses to invade, they would have no hope of repelling a full scale attack without significant help from the west. nbc's richard engel has more from ukraine's front line. >> reporter: we are now in eastern ukraine, not far from the russian border. this is a closed military zone, controlled by the ukrainian military. no civilians live here and there is already extensive damage from years of fighting. this is where the world is watching right now, to see if russian forces will cross over the border and launch an invasion. the front lines along ukraine's border with russia hearken back to world war ii or even earlier. miles of narrow paths flanked by land mines and trenches. muddy today. often frozen solid. these positions are designed to stop or at least slow down a russian advance. and they're on high alert now. russian troops, around 100,000, and tanks are artillery, are massed along three sides of the ukrainian border. and in addition to the regular russian army there are pro-russian militias already operating inside ukraine. ukrainian troops occupy these trenches 24/7. pro-russian forces are just about 50 yards away. and according to the ukrainian soldiers here, those russian-backed troops fire on them almost every day. and it wouldn't take much for an escalation here to trigger a much wider war. >> we have trench with guys. they have trench with guys below these mine fields. so basically when some side start attacking, it's casualties no matter what they do. >> reporter: this 30-year-old lieutenant has been serving on the front for eight years. >> putin i think not stop in ukraine. >> reporter: do you think russia is going to do it? >> in our language, we have some words like hope for the best and get ready for the worst. >> reporter: president biden has effectively ruled out sending combat troops to ukraine. so it is highly unlikely that you would see american soldiers in positions like this going toe-to-toe potentially with russian forces. but the u.s. and other countries already send military advisers to ukraine, offering specialized training. and the ukrainian government wants the u.s. to send more of those advisers and more weapons. richard engel, nbc news, ukraine. >> it's just so jarring to see active trenches in 2021. we also have breaking news from the capitol this afternoon. in a rare bipartisan effort, republicans joined with democrats today to clear the way for a senate vote on raising the debt limit. the deal today does not itself raise the debt limit, but it does allow for the senate to move quickly enough to beat the looming fiscal deadline. a final vote to approve the house measure is expected before the end of the week. still ahead, soldiers guarding tourists and a warning from the state department about a popular beach destination. and later, my colleague ayman mohyeldin on his new podcast. the story of a young woman's journey from being apolitical to storming the capitol on january 6th. it is a must-listen. nurse mariyam sabo knows a moment this pure... ...demands a lotion this pure. new gold bond pure moisture lotion. 24-hour hydration. no parabens, dyes, or fragrances. gold bond. champion your skin. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list event. experience the power of sanctuary when our daughter and her kids moved in with us... our bargain detergent couldn't keep up. turns out it's mostly water. so, we switched back to tide. one wash, stains are gone. 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[steve] we met online about 10 years ago. as i got older, my hearing was not so good so i got hearing aids. my vision was not as good as it used to be, got a change in prescription. but the thing missing was my memory. i saw a prevagen commercial and i thought, "that makes sense." i just didn't have to work so hard to remember things. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. the state department issued a new travel advisory for mexico and the resort city of cancun. it urges americans to reconsider vacations because of increased crime. the guidance comes after multiple incidents of gang violence and gunfire near popular beaches and resorts. nbc news' correspondent sam brock has the story. >> reporter: in mexico, along with sunbathers and white sand beaches, a new image emerging. armed troops, protecting one of the country's most important resources, tourists. mexico beefing up its security following a string of violent attacks, the latest two days ago, sending terrified vacationers, including americans, fleeing for cover. >> every started scrambling and screaming and crying. >> reporter: witnesses say armed attackers appeared on jet skis in the middle of cancun's hotel zone, and according to local authorities, opened fire near several popular resorts. zane jones was resting in his hotel room when the shots rang out. his wife and two kids were at the pool. >> i ran to make sure they were safe. >> reporter: did you cut your trip short because of what happened? >> absolutely. >> reporter: the mexican government ramping up reinforcements in the popular resort area, deploying more than 1,400 national guardsmen on december 1. it wasn't enough to stop the terrifying incident on this beach. now some americans thinking about traveling to mexico may be reconsidering, after a series of violent incidents there recently. last month, frightened tourists and staff sheltered in a cancun hotel after police say suspected drug dealers opened fire on the beach. and in october, two tourists were killed nearby during a reported shootout between gangs. an updated state department travel advisory put in place yesterday urges increased caution due to crime in mexico's quintana row state. >> the government has already taken drastic measures by putting armed guards in military fatigues on the beach, as something that perhaps should instill some confidence to a certain degree. >> reporter: a literal army now guarding one of mexico's top tourist attractions. >> that is terrifying. also the votes are in. this is not terrifying. different story entirely. the votes are in. for the first time, a starbucks in the united states is unionizing. in total, 100 employees across three stores in buffalo, new york cast their ballots. we're still waiting to hear the results from the other two stores. if you want to know why this is happening now, you could blame the starbucks app on your phone. you may have seen complaints about this on social media. some baristas say the app has resulted in searches of unpredictable mobile orders leading to burnout among workers. they say they hope unionizing will give them more say on how that app works. remember that challenge to see how long your starbucks order could be? it drove some people a bit crazy. so how does someone go from being apolitical to storming the u.s. capitol? ayman mohyeldin joins me to talk about his new podcast, "american radical," next. - let me help. lift and push and push! there... it's up there. hey joshie... wrinkles send the wrong message. help prevent them with downy wrinkleguard. feel the difference with downy. ♪ baby got back by sir mix-a-lot ♪ unlimited cashback match... only from discover. the snapshot app from progressive rewards you for driving safe and driving less. okay, what message did you hear this time? safe drivers can save using snapshot? -what's snapshot? -what the commercial was about. -i tune commercials out. -me too. they're always like blah, blah blah. tell me about it. i'm going to a silent retreat next weekend. my niece got kicked out of one of those. -for talking? -grand larceny. how about we get back to the savings? 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(vo) t-mobile for business helps small business owners prosper during their most important time of year. when you switch to t-mobile and bring your own device, we'll pay off your phone up to $1000. you can keep your phone. keep your number. and get your employees connected on the largest and fastest 5g network. plus, we give you $200 in facebook ads on us! so you can reach more customers, create more opportunities, and finish this year strong. visit your local t-mobile store today. in the podcast, american radical msnbc ayman money dean tells the story. ayman focuses on the questions rose an's family has about their transformation from an apolitical to a die hard, questions that focus on one person, the man she travelled to the capitol with. and he has since disappeared, but not before giving an interview to an atlanta reporter. >> let me ask you this, justin. you said, i don't understand why this is being treated -- portrayed as a violent event. but at the end of the day, you have four people who are dead. >> yes. >> does the president, president trump, have blood on his hands? >> does he have blood on his hands? no. >> you don't think the president bears any responsibility -- >> it was a peaceful event. absolutely not. >> but it turned violent. >> i know! and we weren't the perpetuators of the violent. do you understand? it was peaceful, peaceful, peaceful, peaceful, peaceful. it was peaceful. even that picture with the guy with the furry hat armed with the horns and all his buddies in congress, he's an antifa member. >> so, you're saying none of them were trump supporters? >> i'm not saying none of them. but i'm saying the fuel was fire -- there was a fuse that was lit, and there was negative, negative energy. i lost a dear, dear friend, man, an amazing friend, whom i miss dearly. but she was killed by an incited event, and it was not incited by trump supporters. >> it wasn't? >> no! absolutely not! i just told you, man. >> joining me now is the host of "american radical," ayman. just the idea of how somebody becomes a different version of themselves, one that their family don't recognize, i think a lot of families in this country are dealing with that right now. where some members have gone full on into qanon and they don't know how to talk to them any longer. what are you learning about this family? >> since this podcast has come out, i've gotten half a dozen messages exactly what you're describing. people saying i have a mother that's become a qanon supporter, i have a sister. and it's frayed their relationships. they're totally normal people. they go down the rabbit hole of qanon. something hooks them into it. they start researching it. and it reinforces this belief that they have discovered something that the rest of us don't know. and because of that, they start to put up these walls and cut off these relationships with friends and family. and when friends and family say, hey, what you're talking about sounds a little bit crazy, it's a little bit whack, let's come back into the main stream in the thought process, they cut them off, like, i have found my true brothers and sisters, like rose anne said on the capitol. >> rose ann went with a man named jackson. the man we heard in the interview. even though he saw roseann die, saw her face turning blue, saw her taking her last breaths, in complete denial of what was happening around him. >> yeah. >> and the idea that antifa was there even though everybody was wearing trump flags and chanting, support our president. >> that is such a fundamental reason people want to speak to him. he only gave the one interview in the immediate aftermath. i think it was january 7th he sat down with that interview from d.c. with that local reporter. he shared those pictures that we obtained to -- by sharing them and texting them with roseann's father. they know that roseann hated crowds. they want to know if he was in some way, shape, or form the entry point for her into qanon. more importantly she told her family she was going to the rally to attend the rally president trump was speaking. how did she end up on the steps of the capitol? >> i want to know if you find him. i want to know if the family talks to him. but i'm assuming i'm going to have to wait for more episodes. >> we have three more episodes. you're going to have to wait to find out. >> congratulations. it's fascinating and describes what a moment time we are currently living in. congratulations. episodes one and two of american radical are available now wherever you get your podcasts, or just scan the qr code. do it quickly. that is on your screen right now. and senator bob dole is lying in state in the capitol rotunda this afternoon. dole served in both chambers of congress for 35 years. today, as he spoke -- as the president spoke about dole's life and legacy, he also delivered the senator's final message to the nation. >> i quote bob dole. i cannot pretend that i have not been a loyal champion of my party, but i've always served my country best when i did it so first and foremost as an american, where we prioritize principles over party, humanity over personal legacy. when we do that, we accomplish far more as a nation. by leading with shared faith in each other, we become america at its best. he went on to say, a beacon of hope, a source of comfort and crisis, a shield against those who threaten freedom, our nation has certainly faced periods of division. but at the end of the day, we've always found ways to come together. we can find that unity again. >> country over party, a fitting message today. senator bob dole was 98 years old. that's going to do it for me today. hallie jackson picks up our coverage next. on picks up our coverage next. ♪ have a good time 'cause it's all right ♪ ♪ now listen to the beat ♪ ♪ kinda pat your feet ♪ ♪ it's all right ♪ ♪ have a good time 'cause it's all right ♪ ♪ oh, it's all right ♪ do i need to pretreat my laundry? 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