kayleigh mcenany is engaging with the panel, but her deposition has since been delayed. despite that, there are still a few big-name holdouts who appear to be right to slow walk the process. former justice department official jeffrey clark's deposition hearing has been delayed due to a, quote, medical condition, according to the pam and his lawyer. of course, the panel is very interested in hearing from the guy who reportedly wanted to send bogus letters to georgia election officials, from the department of justice, urging them to ignore biden's victory in the state and to name electors in favor of donald trump instead. the committee has already voted to hold him in contempt of congress for not cooperating previously, but they're giving clark another chance to testify on december 16th. clark's lawyer has already announced that when he does that, he plans to plead the fifth. another one of the ex-president's cronies intends to use the same strategy for his own hearing, scheduled for this week. this is john's eastman, who reportedly wrote memos saying that mike pence could overturn the 2020 election results, and that he's invoking his fifth amendment privileges against self-incrimination and has decided not to testify. if clark and eastman think their loyalty will be rewarded, they're likely to be disappointed. here's what michael cohen told my colleague alex witt yesterday. >> i made a lot of mistakes, in terms of even just accepting the unemployment of donald trump in the year 2007. i don't know what i was missing in my life that allowed me to fall so deep into the dumpster to spend so much time worrying about loyalty to donald trump and the family. >> so what is it that's going to happen? what is that the committee hopes to achieve and be able to tell the american people. joining me to discuss is hugo lowell, a congressional reporter for the guardian, covering the house select committee's investigation into january 6th. hugo, good morning to you. thank you for being here. the select committee still doesn't have access to donald trump's call logs. you've got reporting about what trump was up to in the hours leading up to the capitol riot. what do you have? >> yeah, so some time between the late hours of january 5, the eve of the insurrection, and the morning of january 6th, we reported earlier this week that trump picked up the phone from the white house and called his aided and pressed them to find ways to stop biden's inauguration from taking place on january 6th. and this came as part of conversations about delaying a certification in order to get trump's slate of electors returned to congress so he could be returned to the oval office for a second term. this is really significant, and plays a large part in a select committee's investigation. >> so hugo, you got this reporting. you know it. i have heard other reportings who know things about what was going on at the willard hotel. how much can the committee do without the actual call logs? do they have enough corroborating evidence around this to be able to make a case? >> that's a good question. i spoke to a source on the select committee the other day about these calls. and, you know, the fact of the matter is, if they go to the national archives, they can get detailed records and can see, for instance, the calls that were placed from the white house to the willard, at what time, and to which numbers. but what they don't have, necessarily, is the content of those calls. and i think to that extent, they have to rely on witness testimony, and that's going to be really hard, because the guys at willard, who talked about ways to stop the certification were lawyers. if anyone has a valid change, with people like rudy giuliani keep like johnny smith. and i think this is going to be an issue that the committee will have to work around, and they're going to have to find ore witnesses that knew of the conversations, people that told me, maybe they'll tell the committee, as well. >> clark and eastman, two guys who are pleading the fifth or have done or so intend to, what is it that they -- the committee wants to hear, let's say from jeffrey clark. >> jeffrey clark's really interesting, and you actually have a pretty good understanding of what the committee wants in jeffrey clark, because it came out in the transcript that was referenced in the contempt report, when he was voted to recommend his prosecution for not complying with his subpoena. they're looking at stuff with communications with people at the willard, interestingly. they were looking at his contacts with president trump. and whether, you know, he had contacts with members of congress. so it's a really far-reaching investigation and line of inquiry for jeffrey clark. they're pulling a lot from the senate judiciary report, but they've also got their own investigative work that they can rely on. we know from the transcript now that they pulled -- the select committee pulled meta data from some of the letters that jeffrey clark was involved in, and it implicated the white house. >> you tweeted that the january 6th committee members have been making the point that former white house chief of staff mark meadows is cooperating a lot lately, but not all clear that he intends to cooperate in a way that the committee imagines. what do you mean by that? >> yeah, this was really interesting. and it goes to the point about the collect committee is announcing its cooperation and mark meadows and his attorney also announced their cooperation. the problem is, if you speak to both sides, they have a very different understanding of what cooperation entails. if you speak to the select committee and house investigators, they say, look, you know, no topic is off the table. and they expect mark meadows to answer the questions as if he was a regular witness in a regular deposition. he can claim executive privilege for conversations that are genuinely executive privilege, baa they expect broad cooperation on the most part. that's not the situation that mark meadows and his lawyer images is going to take place when he arrives for his deposition. they think topics are off the table. they think the scope of his cooperation is much narrower. and of course, it's in the interest of both sides to say he's cooperating, not least of which mark meadows, so he doesn't get held in contempt of congress like steve bannon, his former colleague at the white house. so there is a disconnect here. and it's going to be tricky to reconcile these two. >> hugo, excellent reporting. we appreciate it. thank you for joining us this morning. hugo lowell is a congressional reporter with "the guardian." joining me now is the illinois democratic congressman, raja krishnamoorthi, i'm sorry to have to continue to wake you up early on weekends to have these discussions, but you have known and followed this really prosecute beginning, long before there was a select committee, long before there was an impeachment, long before there was even a first impeachment. what this committee does is really important, what they are able to find out is really important. it seems like they need information from jeffrey clark and john eastman. in your experience, what options are available to the committee with these two? >> i think the individuals at this point have a choice to made, which is, do they want to invite a contempt of congress viation, just like steve bannon did, or do they want to cooperate to the best extent possible? and i think that my hope is that through the cooperation of mark meadows, they will feel that they have no choice but to cooperate, baa but we will see very much if that ends to be the case. >> congressman, politico is reporting that, quote, an unpublished investigative compilation, sometimes referred to as the alternative mueller report has been located in the justice department files and could be released soon. to do you know anything about this. >> mr. weismann, part of the mueller team revealed in his book that they could come up with this alternative, "the new york times" sued to get access to it. and the justice department is now apparently in the process of producing it. my hope is that it sheds light on other topics, such as the one i questioned robert mueller on, the counterintelligence threats because of existing ties between trump and manafort and others and russia, that may not amount to criminal acts, but still threaten our national security nonetheless. >> what's your sense of what this all does? the information that you're just talking about, plus the information that comes out from the january 6th commission. i'm wondering when you talk to constituents and others, whether anybody's hearts and minds will be changed about this issue, or whether everybody thinks they know what happened entirely during the trump administration culminating in january 6th? >> i think the sense that i get is that people just want to know the truth. certainly about january 6th, i still think that people are horrified by what happened on january 6th and they don't want it to happen again. with regard to the mueller report, i think there, people, again, want to know the truth. but from the standpoint of the intelligence committee or the national security establishment, we just need to protect ourselves, ali, from the ties and other threats that might exist from the trump years. you know, in my opinion, transparency and sunlight are perhaps the best disinfectants with regard to these counterintelligence issues. and so bringing light to what happened or what is going on in terms of those ties will help us in defeating those threats. >> when you think about all of the things that have transpired during the trump administration, do you feel that we have the necessary safeguards in place to ensure that either outside interference, outside interference potentially through a presidential campaign or this kind of plotting to undermine the justice and law enforcement systems of our country, do you think we have safeguards in place, or have you taken away the message that, in fact, we don't, and that's why we need to know all of this information, so that we can build them into place? >> i think we have put some safeguards in place, but we haven't done enough. and part of that is because we don't know the true extent of, for instance, donald trump's ties to russia or manafort's ties to russia. remember, donald trump acquired a tremendous amount of knowledge, sensitive information, during the trump years about our national security apparatus and he's still somebody who could, through his dealings with the russians, potentially give them clues about our weaknesses, our vulnerabilities, and he still has a lot of obligations that have not been exposed, with regard to the russians. and his own aspirations with regard to financial ties, whether it's the trump tower in moscow or anything else. >> and possibly his own aspirations to become president of the united states again. congressman, good to see you. thanks for joining us this morning. democratic representative raja krishnamoorthi of illinois. we'll continue to dive into the january 6th investigation at the top of the hour with representative judy chu. she also isn't hiding anything back about her thoughts about the man you see here, kevin mccarthy who seems set on sweeping the extremism in his caucus under the rug. plus, the return of remain in mexico. we'll break down exactly what that policy entails and why it's different by the one put in place by the failed former president. but next, on the heels of the arraignments of the parents of the alleged high school shooter, we're going to michigan for the latest developments. gon for the latest developments. before. crafted with clinically studied plant-based ingredients that work naturally with your body. for restorative sleep like never before. superpowers from a spider bite? i could use some help showing 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earlier. their 15-year-old son, who killed four teens, is being charged as an adult with two dozen crimes including murder and terrorism. ethan crumbley pleaded not guilty on wednesday, but the sheriff of oakland county michigan says the evidence of his guilty overwhelming. >> as we have said and as the prosecutor has said, we have clear evidence that this was premeditated and that he was actually looking forward to it. >> joining me now on the ground in pontiac, michigan, is megan fitzgerald. megan, good morning to you. a lot of information out of yesterday's press conference and the arraignment. where do things stand this morning. >> ali, good morning. as you know, this is a very active and ongoing investigation, with really new details being released daily. right now, we know that investigators are -- well, one aspect of this investigation is honing in on that person that law enforcement agencies say allowed the crumbleys, jennifer and james crumbley into that warehouse where they were found hiding yesterday morning. you'll remember, starting friday, they were supposed to appear in court for an arraignment and didn't show up. that triggered this multilaw enforcement agency manhunt, lasting more than ten hours to try to find them, which commenced yesterday morning just before 10:00 a.m. in detroit. all along, the defense attorney for the couples saying that they were going to turn themselves in, but law enforcement, as well as the prosecution saying otherwise. i want you to listen to what the sheriff had to say about this very part of this investigation. >> they were in an art studio, within that building that has multiple kinds of partitions, if you will, in that building. they were taken into custody at about 1:30 in the morning. where they were and how they were seems to support the position that they were hiding and they weren't looking for surrendering at that point. we believe they were assisted in that location, to get there, to get in. and we're gathering that information and we're going to have the totality of that done fairly soon. >> reporter: now, another piece of this investigation surrounds oxford high school officials. the prosecutor here being very candid and saying that it is possible that officials from the high school could face charges, because the big question here is how the suspect was able to return back to the classroom after that shocking discovery from a teacher of a drawing that the suspect did, showing a man holding a gun, firing it at another person, very graphic details. and after that discovery and the parents came into the school to address it, that student was able to go back into the classroom. and the prosecutor obviously saying that if things were different and that child wasn't able to return to the classroom, that four people could be alive. so a lot of elements here at work, but we will keep you posted on the very latest, ali. >> often in these cases, not very often, once in a while in these cases, everyone seems surprised by it. but the difference here is that nobody involved seems surprised my it. they have information that there was some intent for a bad act, both in the school and the parents had that information. the question now becomes who knew what when and what should have been done about it. and that we still don't have answers to. >> yeah, you're absolutely right. a lot of warning signs that were missed. and that's what the prosecution had been saying. we saw her play that out yesterday in court, as well as the press conference just a few days ago. there were warning signs here that were missed. and she is out to try to hold those people accountable. she says sending a message that this is how we can stop these things from happening, if we pay attention and we take action ahead of time, ali. >> megan, thank you very much. nbc news correspondent megan fitzgerald is in postoperativeiac, michigan. the charges against the alleged shooter in this case were seen by many as a 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of year. when you switch and bring your own device, we'll pay off your phone up to $1000. you can keep your phone and keep your number. visit your local t-mobile store today. new vicks vapostick. strong soothing vapors... help comfort your loved ones. you can keep your phone and keep your number. for chest, neck, and back. it goes on clear. no mess just soothing comfort. try new vicks vapostick. before the break, we were getting the latest on this week's fatal shooting at oxford high school in michigan. yesterday, as you saw on this show, the parents of the suspected shooter, james and jennifer crumbley, pleaded not guilty to four counts of involuntary manslaughter. they are initially being charged for enabling their son or permitting their son to allegedly commit these crimes. the legal move is being regarded as a novel step towards getting justice and accountability in the wake of yet another deadly school shooting. while the crumbley's son, ethan, is accused of actually pulling the trigger, the prosecutor says she wants to send parents and gun owners a clear message about their roles and responsibilities when it comes to firearms. >> i want to be really clear that these charges are intended to hold the individuals who contributed to this tragedy accountable and also send a message that gun owners have a responsibility. when they fail to uphold that responsibility, there are serious and criminal consequences. >> so the question around what a parent's responsibility's are, my next guest was involved in a case about 40 years ago that set the legal precedent for holding parents responsible for the criminal actions of their children. joining me is author of the book, "attacked." mark, good morning to you. thank you for joining us this morning. i want to take you back to houston in 1980. you and your entire family were attacked in your front yard by high school bullies. the bullies themselves were minors and prosecutors found it necessary to charge their parents in the case. that case legal precedent for going after their parents for their kids violent acts. tell us how it worked in your case. >> well, in my case, we knew that the juvenile, the juvenile system was going to be too slow and didn't have enough power to protect my family. they were coming to my house and threatening to kill me and driving down the road and threatening my friends. we felt that we weren't able to do enough to protect ourselves. so by holding the parents responsible, we hoped that someone in the kids' lives would be able to take control and do something about it. there were four ringleaders that were involved in the group that showed up that night. of the four families, two of the families took action against their kids immediately. however, two of them, the families did nothing. in fact, the families chastised and called me derogatory names. in the initial warning -- we had to do a formal warning in court to let them know what was going on, to give them to opportunity to control their kids. >> in the parallels to this case, i don't think anybody is suggesting that parents are liable for separate violent acts committed by their children. but the concept is if they have information about it or if they have a warning and in the case of the crumbleys in michigan, the initial evidence, we've not seen it in court, but the initial evidence is that they had information, as did the school, that something bad was potentially going to happen. your whole argument and the argument in your court case is if parents know something bad is underway or could be happening, then they have accountability. >> they do. and timeline is going to be an issue in the crumbley case. because they were warned, but they were only warned a few hours before the crumbley kid, before ethan shot up his high school. and the parents didn't have anytime alone with him to do anything. what we don't know is the timeline leading up to that and what else they might have known. what's going to be interesting as this case proceeds, is what we find out leading up to it and how much they can be held responsible for it. >> is there some sense -- and of course, ethan crumbley has been charged, he's not been found guilty of anything at the moment -- is it your sense that your case was precedent setting? did it have influence outside of texas? were there other cases that relied on it for charges against parents? >> every state had different approaches to dealing with this. in my case, it was a civil court case, which set the precedent initially. but when i was writing the book and doing some research, it was written so differently in different states, it was hard to really track what kind of laws came from it. but the fact that i proved that you could win, because i won both of my course cases, that was the precedent setting there. in fact, i helped other businesses and other families in houston also then go after their court cases and how to protect themselves in court. >> it doesn't surprise me that parents would want to be supportive of their family members, regardless of what the crime is. but it was interesting watching the arraignment yesterday and the reactions of both parents, the mother seemed sad and contrite and crying and the father was laughing at times and rolling his eyes. >> and i ran into the same things. with the two families that didn't control their kids in my court case, it was two mothers involved. the fathers were not in the picture at all. both of the mothers did the same thing. they were rolling their eyes, calling me derogatory terms, in court in front of the judge, and they didn't feel that there was anything wrong going on. and obviously, that led to their kids continuing to harass and attack my family. i see that as an issue, that will come back at them. >> mark, good to see you this morning. mark simon is the author of the book, "attacked: bullied, surviving terror, and finding justice." well, five decades of precedent could soon go down the drain and with that the groundbreak work of one woman with that the groundbreak work of one woman [sfx: radio being tuned] welcome to allstate. ♪ [band plays] ♪ a place where everyone lives life well-protected. ♪♪ and even when things go a bit wrong, we've got your back. here, things work the way you wish they would. and better protection costs a whole lot less. you're in good hands with allstate. click or call for a lower auto rate today. clerk: hello, how can i? you're in good hands with allstate. sore throat pain? ♪honey lemon♪ try vicks vapocool drops. in honey lemon chill. for fast-acting sore throat relief. wooo vaporize sore throat pain with vicks vapocool drops. growing up in a little red house, on the edge of a forest in norway, there were three things my family encouraged: kindness, honesty and hard work. over time, i've come to add a fourth: be curious. be curious about the world around us, and then go. go with an open heart, and you will find inspiration anew. viking. exploring the world in comfort. to be a thriver with metastatic breast cancer means asking for what we want. and need. and we need more time. so, we want kisqali. women are living longer than ever before with kisqali when taken with an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant in postmenopausal women with hr+, her2- metastatic breast cancer. kisqali is a pill that's significantly more effective at delaying disease progression versus an aromatase inhibitor or fulvestrant alone. kisqali can cause lung problems, or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. avoid grapefruit during treatment. ask your doctor about living longer with kisqali. . i want to tell you the story of sarah weddington. sarah always thought she would grow up to teach high school students about the epic poem beowulff. despite her college dean telling her that law school would be too tough for a woman, she was one of 40 women in a class of 1600. sarah weddington recalls a building across the street from the law school where women and some men would sit in little nooks at desks that had been rescued from the garbage and work to preserve women's rights. after graduation from law school, she joined a group of students seeking to challenge anti-abortion laws. weddington remembers sitting at a snack bar when a fellow student said, we need to get a lawsuit filed to try to overturn texas's antiabortion law. would you be willing to do it? well, sarah weddington argued she didn't have enough legal experience, to which the student asked, how much would you charge? so weddington said she'd do it for free. soon after weddington with her colleague linda coffey took on the case of a 21-year-old woman who was seeking an abortion in texas. the case went before the supreme court. to this day, sarah weddington is the youngest person ever to argue a case before the supreme court of the united states. but hers is not the name you associate with the case, that would be her client, norma mccorvey, because her real name wasn't known. she was known to the court and to the public at the time as jane roe, as in roe v. wade. what a case it was, resulting in the legalization of abortion in the united states. but here's the thing that many people don't realize. roe v. wade was not actually about a woman's access to the abortion medical procedure. it centered around the right to privacy. weddington looked to the 1965 case, griswald versus connecticut, which involved doctors supplying contraceptives to a married couple. the court in that case found that the couple had a right to privacy and that it was up to them to decide whether or not to use contraception. and from there, the precedent for roe v. wade was set. the court applied the core constitutional right to privacy, ruling that the 14th amendment protects a woman's right to choose whether or not to have an abortion. and that it would be her own business to make that decision. that was 1973. in 2021, sarah weddington's groundbreaking work is on life support. states are chipping away at the groundbreaking decision and it's now very possible that the conservative-backed court backs away from five decades of precedent overturning roe v. wade. how is that even possible? how on earth is the right to an abortion not universally protected? well, the answer is that the right to an abortion is not codified law. beyond the nine justices on the supreme court, there's nothing that guarantees women in every state the right to unfettered access to abortion care. the only way to ensure that women have access to safe and legal abortions is by passing legislation in congress, making legal abortion the law of the land. because as long as we're even talking about abortion and the supreme court in the same sentence, a woman's right to make decisions about her own body remains not safe. sarah weddington made a decision for herself, which may have changed the course of american freedoms. in a book published in 1992, she revealed that while in law school, she became pregnant. she drove to mexico. she had an abortion. weddington wishes she move the doctor's name so she could thank him. in a 2017 interview with the guardian, weddington was asked if she still feels like the young woman who helped legalize abortion. this is how she answered. well, my hair is white now, so in one way i don't see myself at her at all, even if whatever i else do in my life, the headline on my obituary is always going to be roe v. wade attorney dies. but in terms of my emotions, yes, i think most women of my generation can recall our feelings about the fight. it's like young love, you may not feel exactly the same, but you remember it. you may not feel exactly the same, but you remember it. as a professional bull-rider i'm used to taking chances. but when it comes to my insurance i don't. i use liberty mutual, they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. wooo, yeaa, woooooo and, by switching you could even save 665 dollars. hey tex, can someone else get a turn? yeah, hang on, i'm about to break my own record. yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ want your clothes to smell freshly washed only pay for what you need. all day without heavy perfumes? now they can! with downy light in-wash freshness boosters. just pour a capful of beads into your washing machine before each load. to give your laundry a light scent that lasts longer than detergent alone, with no heavy perfumes 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(sha bop sha bop) ♪ ♪ ♪ alexa, play our favorite song again. ok. ♪ i only have eyes for you ♪ a controversial trump-era immigration policy known as remain in mexico is set to be revived by the biden administration as soon as tomorrow. the program forces asylum seekers to stay in mexico while they wait for an immigration court in the united states to hear their claims. asylum seekers, including many children, often have to temporarily live in dangerous border towns in terrible conditions with limited resources. what's unusual here is that the biden administration has been one of the program's biggest critics. president biden actually repealed the policy on his first day in office. now, however, the administration says it's reluctantly reinstating the policy to comply with a court order. and a statement from the department of homeland security, the administration said that remain in mexico, quote, has endemic flaws, unjustified human costs, pulled resources and personnel away from other priority effort, and failed to reduce the root causes of irregular migration. even as they malign and vow to terminate the program, they're actually preparing to expand it to apply to migrants from more countries than previously established. this one is an official head scratcher, which is why we've called in caitlin dickerson, staff writer for "the atlantic," who covers immigration. she's traveled down to the borders and seen firsthand the conditions under which these migrants are living. she's explained these things to me in the past, so i'm very, very, very puzzled by this one, kaitlan. tell me what's wrong with the program and why it's coming back. >> so i'll start with what's considered wrong with the program. it's one which president biden himself during campaigns decried as for the first time requiring asylum seekers in the united states to wait across the border. and as he put it, to live in squalor while their cases are being heard, which as you know, can take months and sometimes even years to be processed. so these cities where the camps grew, we can get into detail on this, but they're very dangerous. you know, i want to make this clear for viewers who think, you know, i've been to mexico before, you know, i had a great time and i felt safe. the areas just along the united states border, they are characterized in the same way that the state department does war-torn parts of the world, in that americans are advised against going there, because it's unsafe. government employees, u.s. government employees face serious restrictions when they go there to work. i face serious restrictions when i go there just to keep safe. and this is where you have asylum seekers living in the conditions that you're showing now, living outside. the policies are coming back. in the state of texas, the biden administration's decision to end it was challenged and the supreme court upheld that challenge, basically finding that the administration had moved too quickly and hadn't considered the consequences before they got rid of the policy. but the biden administration is expanding it. we really don't have good answers for that. my top line there, ali, is there's so much fear in washington about appearing soft on immigration. fear in the biden white house and among democrats in congress and that ends up taking presence on immigration policy over the economy, which you and i have talked about and our needs there, over humanitarian considerations and over these legally protected humanitarian protections that have been passed into law. it's this fear of appearing soft that ends up winning the day. >> that last point that you made is really important. governments have blurred this line between humanitarian legal obligations to which the united states is party and immigration. they are different things. and a lot of people coming over the southern border, you may think it legitimate or illegitimate, but we have certain obligations towards people who have declared they are refugees or asylum seekers. >> that's exactly right. and what happened is, after world war ii, the western world led by the united states took a hard look at the way we behaved when jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust came to the united states, tried to get in and were denied and were told, you have to get in line, you have to apply, you have to go through a system. and of course, were sent back in many cases to their deaths. so the world, you know, got together. the united states again being a leader, and started to establish these systems of protections, so that if someone arrived at the united states border, they would have a chance, an opportunity to plead their case, and if they qualified, they would be able to stay. and a lot of times the criticism that you hear from across the aisle, we all sort of agree as americans that our current system doesn't work, and a lot of people on both sides of the aisle say, we just want to see a little more order. we want to see a system and a process, we feel like the conditions that we're observing are not safe and not helping anybody. what a lot of people don't -- they feel frustrated with all of the asylum seekers who come to the united states border and say, why don't you just apply, just quote/unquote do it right. people don't realize, that is the legal avenue for somebody who is coming to the united states who doesn't have a lot of money, whether they want to come here to work, whether they're fleeing violence and persecution or both, this is their only way to show up at the united states border, because of these protections that they have. and as we've said, we've blurred the line. we've criminalized people coming to access this program. but we've got to make a decision as a country, do we want to uphold it or don't we? right now, we're sending this incredibly mixed message by having laws that allow people to come and apply for protection, but then punishing them for doing it. >> it is not a crime to be a refugee. kaitlan, thank you so much for joining us. i recommend to my viewers if they don't follow you, they should. you are one of the greatest minds of understanding the complex of immigration in this dun. a new highly anticipated documentary investigates the story behind guantanamo bay's forever prisoner. torture and the moral lines that are often forgot. in the name of national security. the acclaimed filmmaker, alex gibney standing by. he joins me next. x gibney standing by he joins me next business owners prosper during their most important time of year. when you switch to t-mobile and bring your own device, we'll pay off your phone up to $1000. you can keep your phone. keep your number. and get your employees connected on the largest and fastest 5g network. plus, we give you $200 in facebook ads on us! so you can reach more customers, create more opportunities, and finish this year strong. visit your local t-mobile store today. people everywhere living with type 2 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connected to affordable internet in the last 10 years. and this is emmanuel, a future recording artist, and one of the millions of students we're connecting throughout the next 10. through projectup, comcast is committing $1 billion so millions more students, past... and present, can continue to get the tools they need to build a future of unlimited possibilities. one of the biggest moral questions facing the united states over the last 20 years is what lines we and our government will cross in the name of national security. it's a question that has persisted through administrations on both sides of the political aisle and it remains current this day. it's a question at the heart of a new hbo documentary, the forever prisoner, which debuts tomorrow on hbo and hbo max. the film tells the tale of abu sabeda, the first man subject to the highly illegal enhanced interrogation techniques. zabedayeh remains detained at guantanamo to this day despite never being charged with a crime or allowed to challenge his detention. >> in 2002, the fbi thought they nabbed a terrorist mastermind. he was imprisonedn't in secret cia unit called strawberry fields. as in, forever. >> reporter: joining me now is the filmmaker behind "the forever prisoner," alex dpibny. also the documentary's narrator. you've done enough work on this for people to know, you're not soft on terrorism. you don't carry water for people who are terrorists. but there's something strange about the degree to which we suspend laws that we would not suspend for ourselves when it comes to people like abu zubaydah and their holding at guantanamo bay and the lack of the ability to bring them to trial and the fact that we extracted information from them through torture. >> that's right. we believe in universal principles. that's what we're supposed to stand for. indeed, if you go back to the beginning of the war on terror, which is to say, 9/11, the purpose of that vicious attack was not to invade the united states or provoke a war, it was to provoke us to abandon our principles. and in the case of abu zubaydah, that's what we've done. the way to assume once more the moral high ground and make ourselves more secure against terror, we continue to adopt those universal principles. >> there are two buckets here. one is guantanamo, which is representative of the way whether we do it guantanamo or the way we held prisoners in the middle east, which doesn't seem to live up to any meaningful standard of how you imprison people. and there's the second issue, which is enhanced interrogation techniques or what we now know to be torture and its effectiveness. both of these have undermined these universal principles that you say that we subscribe to. >> that's correct. in the case of the torture program, this is something that cia kbarkd on with i must say a kind of profound lack of any sense of understanding of its own history. these techniques don't work. and there's nothing -- no intelligence was on contained through the enhanced interrogation of abu zubaydah that was not already obtained by an fbi agent who had interrogated abu zubaydah, according to tried and tested rapport-building techniques, which by the way, are legal. >> and that's the valid point here. in fact, we have testimony. we have the information that he got from abu zubaydah, and we know that to be more reliable than what was got from enhanced interrogation techniques, and to this day there are people who will defend the idea that interrogation works. what's in it for hem to defend it, other than protecting their own legacy? >> i think that's precisely what's in it for them. they're right to pretend that what they did was great, when the record shows just the opposite. and this was not something that i would have been able to say conclusively until i made this film, because we were able through a number of lawsuit against the cia to uncover some information that we hadn't been able to uncover before. but it's demonstrably true that these enhanced interrogation techniques were an utter failure. and they were brutal, and most likely illegal, despite the attempts of lawyers to try to cook the books to try to make them legal. >> how much of this is political? and when i say political, i mean, in these times after terrorist attacks, people are willing to blur lines. we know that with national security and what we allow the government to do in terms of surveillance and things like that. but in those moments, people say, do whatever you have to do to keep people safe, and those enhanced interrogation techniques look like they're doing something to show the bad guys that they can't be bad guys. >> we know from many, many years of history that torture ultimately results information, which is what the interrogate wants to hear, not what the truth is. it seems to me that you're the central agency, ie, your job is to get good actionable intelligence, what you want is the truth. not somebody to tell you what you want to hear. that's the point. that's what keeps us safe. if we know that, why do we keep going down this path, just because it may feel good to beat somebody around the head. you know, or to subject them to waterboarding. and i would say that the reason was a kind of panic. and it has to do with people that understood deep down that they did the wrong thing and they keep wanting to pretend, wanting to pretend that they did the right thing in order to save their reputations and possibly save themselves from some kind of deeper inquiry, which would show the world just how badly we screwed this up? >> alex, good to see you this morning. thank you as always for joining us, my friend. alex gibney is a documentary and filmmaker of "the forever prisoner." it premieres tomorrow on hbo and the hbo max streaming service. go nowhere. straight ahead, representative judy chu has an actual bill that would codify roe v. wade. another hour of "velshi" begins right now. >> good morning to you. it is 9:00 a.m. in the east. i am ali velshi. every week, we get a trickle of new information about what really happened in the days leading up to the january 6th insurrection and the disgraced former president's attempt to overturn the results of the 2022 election. for almost a few year, we've been collecting bits of information, trying to understand how such an egregious attack on democracy was allowed to happen in the united states. the january 6th county is leading those investigations, but have been keeping their findings to themselves and that could change very soon. during a rules committee meeting this week, the january 6th committee's vice chair, the republican congressman liz cheney made some very curious remarks. >> we anticipate next year we'll be conducting multiple weeks of public hearings, setting out for the american people in

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