then, countdown to document production. what we know about the trump appealed to stop the january six committee. plus, marc elias on his fight to stop what them from mapping their way back into. power and its prices of goods and services keep creeping, up some immediate perspective on today's big inflation number. when all in, starts right now. >> good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. kyle rittenhouse was just 17 years old, when he drove across state lines, to kenosha wisconsin, with an illegally obtain military style rifle. he shot, and he killed, two men. joseph wrote in bonn, and at the knee. he wounded another. this happened in the summer of 2020 in the middle of protesters, on the black man who had been shot by a police officer, and rittenhouse traveled 20 miles from his home, to wade into the protests. he wanted up using that 70 automatic gun to and the lives of two people. which is what landed rittenhouse on trial for homicide. and on the witness stand, in that trial again. rittenhouse was 17 when he killed those two men. not old enough to smoke cigarettes, have a beer, in many ways, in the eyes of the, law he was still a child, a minor. he is being tried as an adult to the severity of the crime that he is charged with. but i think, to most sensible people, at least i would hope, the image of a child, highschooler, carrying a deadly weapon, designed for war, doesn't inspire confidence about the wise judicious use of that weapon. about decisions being made. just listen to rittenhouse today, that he admitted, he mostly just like the way the gun looked. >> you didn't pick up the ar-15 for any other reason? >> who i thought it looked cool, but, no. >> you didn't pick it up because you wanted to go hunting with it, did you? >> no. >> you didn't pick it up because you are going to use it to protect your house, correct? >> correct. >> you picked it up because it looked cool? >> i thought it looked cool. >> looks cool. that cool thing ended the lives of two people. teenagers do a lot of thing, because they look. a lot of them aren't good. >> hearing that, it is difficult not to be reminded of one of the greatest tragedies in recent american history, when 22 years ago, two highschoolers, 1:17, 1:18, who also thought guns were cool. murdered 12 students, and one teacher. and wounded dozens more at the high school in middleton colorado. at that time, that was the deadliest school shooting in u.s. history. sadly, it had broken multiple multiple times. and since, these mass shooting have just become part of american life. it is unacceptable cost at living in a free society. it would be hard to take by, how he felt, at the time. the heinous, this the inexplicably of the crime. and because it was so piercing to the american consciousness, it percentage something of a pr paul bloom, to the force is pushing gun ownership in american life. thanks to some truly excellent reporting by tim mak author of the new book npr washington investigative correspondent misfire: inside the downfall of the nra, we now know how the national rifle for association, and manufacturers reacted in realtime to the unfolding crisis. i'm going to play you some audio, obtained by mack, who is going to join us in a moment. these are secret recordings of an nra crisis response conference call. literally, the day after the call, it is april 21st, 1999. and you can hear at the members of the executive boards debate how to respond to this unfathomable tragedy. what to do, what to tell the public that had just watch the guns the associated celebrate to be used to slaughter children. >> is there something concrete that we can offer? not because guns are responsible, but because we care about these people? is there anything? does that look crass or -- >> were like a victims. fun >> yeah, we create a victims, fun and we give the victims 1 million dollars or something like that. does that look bad? or does that look -- >> well, i mean, that could be twisted to. i mean why are you giving money, you feel responsible? >> no, while your tua can be twisted, but we feel sympathetic -- >> respectful. >> we still reflects for. maybe we can throw million dollars of the debt kids family. and hopefully pondering whether or not to give compensation, as the gun lobby taking responsibility for the shooting. for the record, this is how the ultimately responded. by holding, get this, it was previously scheduled in denver, a short trip away from the side of the shooting, less than two weeks, later two weeks before these children had massacred their class, read and two weeks later here's the nra. and denver, hey everybody guns, guns, guns then and i.r.a., hasn't shown up in rallied supporters. he delivered a speech when he argued the association used to live it gun ownership. we cannot, we must not that tragedy lay ways, to the most rare and hard one human rights in history. we will not relinquish it, or be silenced about. it or be told do not come here, you are an welcomed in your own land. what, we love guns, sorry about what happened over. the i -- >> that not only the second amendment is important but that guns in the hands of people and more people should have, guns there should be more people out there they should be able to carry guns, in whatever they want to. for whatever legal purpose, more, more, and more guns. that message will further crystalize on december 14th, 2012. that was the day the young man walked into the elementary school with multiple guns a military style assault rifle. and shot dead 21st graders and six teachers and staff. , in that moment he felt unfathomable and that felt even more unfathomable. and that became the inflection point, to the nra, which this time didn't even pause for self-reflection. no, rather like after, columbine, committed itself further to the cause of widespread firearm ownership. and then, and our executive vice president wayne, held a press, in washington, and took no questions but providing this indelible message. >> the only way, to stop a monster from killing our kids is to be personally involved and invested in a planet absolute protection the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with the gun. >> that's it, that's iconic now, that's the message. you can recite. it that is the message the nra wanted to push after this event. more guns. at morgan's, equals more safety. and more guns to a society. there's a background with a gun, but at a good guy with a gun, and then those should a shutter, and then that will be safer. not a message of moderation, strict control over deadly weapons but returned to the state of nature in which problems are solved with interpersonal violence. and, this put the nra, which on both sides of the aisle's for decades and direct opposition, to a democratic party, not increasingly committed to gun safety and legislation. according to analysis, of an army, reading by the gun safety site in, trace in 2010, more than a quarter of democratic candidate for congress received an a rating from the organization, meeting, they supported gun ownership and second amendment. writes about have received, f ratings. which means they supported gun control measures. by 2020, there was exactly one democratic candidate for the house of an a reading. and he lost. democrats horrified by the slaughter of young children firmly entrenched the party on the side of gun safety. and that was not exceptional vienna, so it for the recount belated to the political right. and he completed the project, early for a transformation, from what began of a shooting club for union soldier veterans. into this hard right extremists murder, pushing out right focused on responsible gun ownership, and gun rights. but a broader vision of stoking the right-wing for the citation of both guns and violence and the use of those guns in violent confrontation. the nra run these wild, alice you could see here, with the scary looking footage. framing america as a country in the midst of a violent resolution, or right-wing protesters were collaborating with the media to destroy the american way of life. here is how one of those at ends. >> the only way we stop this, the only way we save our country and our freedom is to fight this violence of lies with a clench fist of truth. i am the national rifle association of america, and i am freedoms safest place. >> freedom. >> that's a message that was being pushed to a 17 year old cop in the house. a child. he heard warning of the bogeyman's of black lives matter, and he took this illegally acquired assault weapon, which he admits, not for hunting, or for home defense. and those himself at the freeing kenosha. and he kills to people what the boy, who killed people, the boy, who killed people's then celebrated by the same pro gun law and order culture that produced him. he is bill that with the help of right-wing activists any poses for a photo grinning in the t-shirt of a long gun themed coffee company. that then recorded controversy when it distance itself from this person. this boy, who had killed two people, accused of homicide. when there is a legal question before the jury right now of kyle rittenhouse, guilty, or innocence. it is being determined, will be determined. from what i've, seen i think it's pretty likely he'll be acquitted, honestly. but there's also the broader question of what kind of society do we want to live in. ask yourself that. if you are watching, this and you're a gun owner or someone who considers yourself a defender of the second amendment. abstractly. ask yourself, do we want to society in which political conflict is settled on the streets between people with guns? one in which everyone is armed, and can therefore viewed the other people as a possible threat. which appears to be what had happened in the streets of kenosha. is that the society we want? because that is the pro gun lobby is hoping to bring about. is bringing about. go ask the family of those two dead men. they are doing it through lots of channels including through an upcoming supreme court ruling which the conservative majority can vary feasibly brought and its interpretation of the second amendment to one that is essentially requires all states to permit adults to conceal and hold weapons. it is not just a theoretical element, it is happening in kenosha, and in the chamber of the highest court in the land. we >> tim mak is the npr washington investigative correspondent and the author of misfire: inside the downfall of the nra. and he joins me now. tim, i want to go back to this incredible tape you acquired of that conference call. would take us through the context, i have listened to the longer stretches of it, and it is just remarkable to hear them in realtime, working through the crisis pr. what is the context, there what ultimately did they decide? >> just this at the scene, you've done a really great job of doing, that the nra is planning to hold its convention just a little over a week after what turned out to be the shooting in columbine, and sort of scramble onto this conference call. all sorts of executive in officials and lobbyist and strategists. they are trying to figure out, what they are going to do. as you pointed out, they proposed different approaches. a softer tone. they think about canceling their convention entirely. they suggest, maybe, there can be a victims fund. but, they kind of eventually land on what they ultimately decide after columbine, but also it echoes for many years to come with -- imagining that it would become more sad. and that's only if they see anything. that's kind of accepting responsibility. >> right. >> that is the setback, it is some level of complicity. and that's what you hear. over the course of these hours of tape, inside the room. >> i want to play another part of this tape. because one of the things that i think there are a would say about people like me or people like in the, quote, liberal media. you look down on good red bullet god fearing americans who love their second amendment rights. you have condescension towards. them so i want to play, you would former president. maybe we can do have massager, we take on the exhibit, hall we don't know part of the conference, we let the members, me and she makes a, point oh no, if you do that you are going to have a problem. listen to what she says. >> if you pull down the exhibit hall, that's not going to leave anything for the media except the members meeting. and you are going to have the wackos with all kinds of crazy resolution, with all kinds of, of dressing of a bunch of hillbillies an idiot. and it's going to be the worst thing that you can imagine. >> again, this is marin hammer, she is the former president of the nra. discussing her own members and saying that the problem with taking away the exhibit hall is that you will then spotlight our own members, which she describes, as what goes dressing like a bunch of hillbillies and idiots. >> it's remarkable, and shocking to see the nra top officials express privately what they think about some of their members. the nra, right now, is in a lot of trouble. i'm sure there are a lot of nra members today who are hearing these private thoughts about who they are and what they represent. a lot of nra members are already really upset with all these reports of millions of dollars worth of corruption in the executive letter of the nra, led by mr. lapierre. i'm sure they're not happy to hear what's being said about them behind the scenes. >> final point, who write in the book, i got a chance to go through part of the book which is fantastic. i've always admired you as a reporter tim mak, it's really great work. people should pick up the. book with the sort of call in mind, and then sandy hook. and then after her, you get the trajectory, the nra used to be like that who -- we don't care about politics. if you roll with them euro with. us we are cool with. the we are not giving you any vision for american society other than ethanol subsidies from the government. the nra used to be pretty focused on specific gun issues, it has morphed to a total lies in right wind vision of the world. you make the argument in the book that sandy hook was the inflection for that. >> absolutely, after sandy hook, the republicans and conservatives are really the only target audience for the nra. they dispense with what was for a long time before that, been a really important strategic partner. those moderate democrats who would support gun rights and the nra, after sandy hook, the nra kind of re-bundled itself as a quote on quote freedom organization. one that really doubled down on the culture war. it is not just about guns anymore, for the nra. it's about being the organization standing between the government and. you and between, you know, people want to take away your freedoms, and you. that marks a huge shift for the nra, and ultimately, it leads them to a place of strategic peril, and today, the nra is an enormous amount of financial and legal trouble. i think a lot of it stems from that decision after sandy hook. >> tim mak, the book is called misfire. really recommended. thank you for taking some time with us. >> thank you. >> in the ten months since the attack, there have been over 670 arrests related to january six. so far, the people responsible for investigating the attack i've managed to escape justice, but from last night ruling, could a change that? what happens now that a judge denied trump's attempt to block the widest committee from obtaining records, after this. ing records, after this. it's been just over ten months since the january 6th insurrection and so far according to the justice department own figures released today, approximately 675 defendants have been arrested in all 50 states. 120 have been pleading guilty. including 220 related to assault and resisting officers. today, one of those men's, was sentenced to 41 months in prison. his name is scott fairlamb, seen here with a beard and camouflage jacket screaming into police officer's face during the january 6th attack. he was caught on camera, punching a police officer, it's not legal. today, he was sentenced to nearly three and a half years in prison for his actions. the most severe sentence handed down so far. prosecutor are also seeking the maximum sentence for the man who became the face of the insurrection. be jacob chansley, is one of the first rioters to breach the capital and made all the way to the chamber. you probably remember those images. late night, prosecutors recommended that he go to prison for 51 months. also late last night, the man who urged qanon shaman and the hundreds of other insurrections, to go to the capitol, explicitly. >> he lost a major legal back though to block his january six select committee. a federal district judge rejected trumps attempt to keep white house record secret. saying, quote, defendants content that discovering and coming to terms with the calls of underlining january 6th attack is a matter of on surface public importance because such information relates to our core democratic institution and the public's confidence in them. the court agrees. >> but he has been covering all of this as national correspondent, barb mcquade what is the former corresponded but. they are sisters in the podcast, and they both join. nina one barb mcquade, let me start with you from the order from the federal judge. basically, the white house waived executive privilege for these documents. they told the national archives to turn them over, friday was the deadline. trump had a lawyer that sued and said, no you can't do that. and they said, no, i can. what do you think about her reasoning in the opinion. >> i think our reasoning is very solid, chris. what she says is, it is the current president, the sitting president, joe biden, who gets to decide whether something should be disclosed or not under executive privilege. our prior president does have the supreme court refers to a residual interest. that president can't go to the current president, and asked whether or not executive privilege can be asserted. but at the end of the day, the decision belongs to joe biden. and as they sit in his opinion, the pointed is no longer the president. he does not remain, asking he does not have the. par she said we should turn this. over the legislative once this turned. over it is really quite clear. so i think that decision is on really solid ground. i think there is a possibility of an appeal that could delay things. but i think, ultimately, the committee is going to get these documents. >> betsy woodruff swan, we know that the trump lawyers are already indicating that they will obviously fallen emergency appeal, they will appeal the circuit court which is one level up, the deadline is friday. we know that they are going to try to the lay but the rapidity at which this is being processed, is in stark contrast to the long periods of time that we saw in the previous years for these kinds of issues to work their way through the courts. >> it does feel like it's moving quicker than these kind of things have moved in the past. and, the members of the congressional committee investigating all of the sub made it clear, that they hope the court really gets this at a rapid clip, regardless of the decision of the court. part of the reason for that, and what's hanging over the head of every single member of the select committee, including, the two anti trump republicans on the committee is the fact that it looks more likely than not that republicans might take control of the house in representatives next year. that means, there is pretty much a hard infested line for this committee to get their work done. before it's possible that the entire thing maybe instantly shuttered. they are having to move really quick. that is part of the reason why the court strategy for trump's team, the benefit is not just -- the chance which is an, high but also that it could really slow things down. remember, it to congress years to get the white house counsel ultimately to testify. many of these matters takes so much time that by the time the information gets to capitol hill, it feels like it is more something that is relevant then to actually helping legislators make decisions about laws that they need to pass to keep this country safe and secure. >> on that note, what we are seeing, what we saw, steve bannon engaging in the kind of massive resistance against the lawful subpoenas of a duly convened committee. he is not being joined in pierce by stephen miller who is also subpoenaed. bennett has a referral justice, and i will play you what's stephen miller said to her last. night when he said that he's going to take the same route, take a listen barb mcquade. >> it just an attempt, you know this better than anybody, to distract from the horrific failures of the biden presidency. president biden lesson at the secure border, a successful growing economy. the pieced in the middle east. low stable inflation. >> you are not going to be showing up to testify on this is a so-called select committee -- >> i don't even have the documents floor. >> i mean, i just want to point, out he left in the worst catastrophe in 100 years with 100 and thousands of people dead. that aside, barbara, there has to be consequences if people don't throw up or people are not going to show. up this is instead of 1:01. >> i think we are citizens, our elective want to be able to investigate those who have power to legislate and oversight of its appropriations and that is what it is attempting to do here. if people just say, no i'm not coming, they really lost an important par. we have lost an important part. because they are our elected representatives, and i think that is why there are all eyes on this been in referral. when, and if, the justice department will bring criminal charges. it seems very likely that we will see some sort of, action i think out of the justice department, they have to show a willful violation, without any defense, there is a possibility of some executive privilege argument or some advice of counsel argument here. but i think we will see either criminal or civil action coming out of the justice department in short order. and betsy, we should, say there is a huge sort of swath of folks that have been subpoenaed. not all of them will go that. road and there are some who are going to cooperate with an area of protests. >> sure, the committee has said that of all people, mark meadows, and cash hotel, two very dedicated -- to try to argue an executive privilege when they didn't need to engage. they are very much potentially charting a path for other trump loyalist to have some sort of permission structure to at least engage with this committee and not to totally rejected. the fact that jeff clark showed up in person, and hung up for 90 minutes with committee members last week, he didn't answer the questions, he didn't give them what they want, he in self may still face come ten, but the fact that he was there in person, with his lawyers, and dialogue with him a little bit, even distinguishes him from bennett. at that is the kind of thing that doj prosecutors might consider. how much respect are these witnesses showing to the committee, are they having any pretense of taking it seriously. so, i think while it is likely that there will be other folks who are subpoenaed who do the same thing that bennett does. i think there is going to be a significant number who follow more in the mark meadows route, more on the road of other folks who names aren't yet public. and when they think that the juice is not worth the squeeze one tangling with the doj. in terms of that expensive legal effort. >> betsy woodruff swan and barb mcquade, thank you both. coming up, the growing effort to take back the house by redistricting themselves in the power. i'll talk to the busiest election lawyer in the business, marc e. elias, about what could be done to stop it ahead. one to stop it ahead so, back in 2018, the voters of the very conservative state of utah we're faced with a ballot proposition. the measure, called proposition, for propose a redirecting committee. take it out of the hands of a partisan lawmaker, put it in commission. and the seven members would then be responsible for drafting and recommending congressional and state legislator district maps. when they are redrawn every ten years after the census, that measure. one you tell voters like. that a little over a year later, republicans, who were in control of the state legislature said, we don't like, that and they essentially over. rhonda they don't pass the bill saying no, we are going to allow lawmakers to completely disregard the band of commissions, map putting them in control of how they are drawn. and now, guess what, they are using that power, producing gerrymander maps. breaking up the more urban liberal areas of the state. so the independent commission proposed these three maps. a little hard to see what is going on. there they did not pick a favorite. but we will see that liberal eating salt lake in the north central part of the state, in the pink section, and all of those maps. this is the map that the utah senate voted overwhelmingly to approve today. so whether, does it takes that pink section, where there are a lot of liberal voters, and it's split into four districts. so you take all those liberals, and democratic-leaning, volker's and you sweat them up. they sent this to the republican governor for approval. last, night governor cox, dismiss concerns were about the redistricting process. >> i understand the frustration, that people are feeling right now, and that should be directed in making sure that we elect people, that have the same interest that we do, and are interested in may be changing those maps the next time around. >> so, if you don't, like you can vote people. but that is wrong. that is precisely the problem actually. the people of utah did vote on this. they wanted an independent commission to decide, and now that partisan -- and now they are going to overrule a choice and make the maps to choose their own voters. they are controlling the mechanisms of representation. that is why voting won't solve things here. and of course, it is not just. iota this partisan gerrymander inning -- in recent, years ohio voters approved again, bipartisan redistricting commissions to draw fair maps in the state of ohio, but this, one republicans in control, of the commission, and to nearly blew through their chance to weigh in by the end of last month. they passed a deadline. which then, once it, lapped move the authority to, guess who, the republican controlled legislature. and guess what they did? this is with the current muppet congressional districts looks like in ohio. not a whole lot of blue, but a few democratic leading districts around major cities. this is the proposal from the ohio to bring the balance down to just two democratic leading districts. and 12 republican-leaning districts. that is in the state that donald trump won by just eight points. then we go to north carolina, north carolina, pretty much 50/50, got a democratic governor, republican legislature. at that republican legislature passed a high new dream up next week. he is on the map with a republican and five democratic seats. the new one on the, right bring this up to 10 to 3. with one highly competitive seat. if all these changes, stand get, this republicans could get's multiple seats by next year before they even have to do anything. before they have to run an election, figure out their message. now, there is one man fighting against this harder than anyone. else taking these battles to court, and he will join me next. join me next every ten years, every state in the union goes through the process of redistricting. they redraw the lines of their congressional district lines, as well as the state district. once and that is really important, it sparked a lot of fights, because the power needs stay tries to draw the most beneficial map for them. sometimes the gerrymandering goes way too far creating unfair, undemocratic situation. and that's where the courts come in. like in north carolina, voters are challenging the newly rejoin, matt giving republicans two more safe seats. they are arguing it is an improper partisan gerrymander. lawyer, marc elias, and representing north carolina voters on the case. he is an expert, and the founder of the democracy docket which provides analysis of voting rights. before we get to north carolina, i want to start with the supreme court which had a landmark case in which it said, you can do whatever you want. in partisan gerrymandering. if you could take a state that is 50/50, and figure out a way to give it all to one party. you can do. that there is nothing in the constitution stopping you. but that really doesn't appear to open the floodgates. >> it does. two things happened between 2011 and today. one, the supreme court's decision in common cause, the case you referred to. where the supreme court, as you said, open the floodgates and said, please, we come with the test for a lot of things but we can figure out a gauge whether or not there is a partisan gerrymander. which is crazy, but that is essentially what. happen >> the other thing that happened is donald trump, and with donald trump came the draining of any wants of shame. so you know the shameless party, that is not afraid of a pairing democratically. with engaging with democrats, because they're a lot. to >> yes, and north carolina, the whole high one is interesting, because ohio is so widely gerrymandered back in 2011. there's not much more to the game but north carolina, you are going from eight 5 to 10 three with one toss of. it here's a staff that really blew my. mine they would take an absolute blow out, over seven points in the statewide popular votes for democrats to even get half of the states congressional democrats. this really is a particularly agree just. one >> it is, and hats off to the republican in north carolina for being both persistent and also completely shameless against gerrymandering. just to re-run the tape, they passed him up after 2011, last round of redistricting, that was a blink tint racial gerrymandering. that was a racist. map we know that because i stood them and we went to the u.s. supreme court on one, in the roberts court. that the map the drew disadvantage black voters. so what they did, they came, back and they passed a ten three. matt and what the set was that they passed a ten through map because they couldn't figure out a way to only create two democratic seats. if they could, they would've created that. matt so we saw them again, and once again. this time under the state's constitution. and here we are, again they are back to a ten three math. they are just insisting on not letting voters shoes politicians but i guess they figure that if they let the voters do that they will not win elections. >> part of what we are seeing, hair you're saying i should note, there are some states that look like and democratic control moving quite aggressively to maximize democratic control in those states. we don't know the new york mafia, but that might be a place to look for. that the maryland map is back and forth but it might squeeze out the lone remaining republican. but when you look at the example of these places that have tried in commission, ohio, also in utah. in iowa, i think some are similar. they seem like the buckle under the pressure of the level of partisan intensity in american politics and is that fair? >> yes, the intensity though, is not in american politics, it's in the republican party. chris, this is the kind of rule that i have come to learn, by never engage in any political process that requires republican politicians to act in good faith. the problem with a lot of these is that the assume that republican legislations will act in good. face and as you pointed, out in utah, and elsewhere, that just isn't the case. >> finally, i want to talk about a piece that you wrote which i really liked about five years later. in the democracy of docket this, week you talked about the big lie. the big lie was born in the aftermath of 2020 election, but it was conceived on election day in 2016. without the 2016 election, there is no big, lie in a violent insurrection, unraveling of democracy. you sort of take stock of where we are five years after that election day in the state of our democracy. what is your big lesson about where we are? >> i think that we are on the verge of losing our democracy in one or two election unless we change, course the fact this, we face a crisis in this country in which one of the to make a political party have become captive to a cult personality if they fill one term president, who is an authoritarian, who cannot win the popular. vote he didn't win the popular vote in 2016, and lost the popular vote by more in 2020, and the electoral college. then, he incited the right and a coup attempt in the u.s. capital. rather than the republican party recoiling from that and distancing, itself they are now embracing. and i just want to, add one way for you to think about this, unless, tuesday turn mcauliffe lost a close gubernatorial election. the margin right now, states, 1.9%. he can see the next morning. and new jersey, the republican candidate for governor lost by nearly 3%. he is still not conceded. think about the. the all of the pressure in their candidates, they never concede, they never accept the results when they lose an election. and that will lead to trouble in 2022 and 2020. for >> that is very well said we are monitoring the situation in new jersey for precisely that reason. you kind of a democracy in which it is only okay for the election to be free and fair if republicans win, right? that's just not the way it works. but that is precisely what the situation that they have produced. >> that's right, and if you look at election night. they were already calls by republicans returning to mcauliffe the. night he was criticized for leading the next. morning those republicans are aching on someone who has clearly lost the election in new jersey. they are aching him on to not concede. >> marc e. elias thank you very much. >> thank you. >> this morning we found a consumer prices have seen the biggest year over increasing 31 years. next, some very crucial perspective on how today's inflation number fits into the larger picture of the american recovery. recovery instantly clear everyday congestion with vicks sinex saline. for fast drug free relief vicks sinex. instantly clear everyday congestion. and try vicks sinex children's saline. safe and gentle relief for children's noses. ♪ ♪ 'tis the season to break tradition in a cadillac. don't just put on a light show—be the light show. make your nights anything but silent. and ride in a sleigh that really slays. because in a cadillac, tradition is yours to define. so visit a cadillac showroom, and start celebrating today. ♪ ♪ many people remain unsettled about the economy and we all know why. they see higher prices. they go to the store online and they can't find what they're always want. and when they wanted. and we are tracking these issues and trying to figure out how to tackle them head-on. >> president joe biden was in baltimore today and he addressed the eye-popping inflation statistics released by the government, today, the consumer price index basically an average of the change in the price of all consumer goods and services rose 6.2%. that is the highest increase in over 30 years since 1990. and a lot of, ways this is one of the central issues of the biden administration for the democratic party. prices are rising and there is not a lot that they can do about. republicans are in term, not surprising, pouncing on it with their messaging, and mainstream press outlets are all raising the alarms of price going on. there is a case to be made and we find ourselves now in a way better than what the alternatives can be. contrary to the freak out over prices rising, bloomberg's argue today are economic indicators show that, quote, the totality of the labor market has come out ahead of inflation. joe biden's cohost of the the odd lots podcast joins me. now there was a concern today, i think you and i with both concern -- 6% inflation is not good. what is your case for the other part of the lighter look at when you are looking at the full totality of where we are in this recovery? >> 6% infliction it is hot by any measure. if you look at food, if you look at gasoline, these are prices that people see every, day they have a lot of a villains for people. but, we have had the most extraordinary labor market recovery in ages. nearly 20 million people have become re-employ. and re-entered the workforce since the bottom of the pit in the pandemic. when you factor that in, all of these people, we talk about real wages as a constant economic, a lot of people wages have not pent-up with the 6% inflation. not good. but when you factor in about a year ago, many peoples real wages were literally zero because they had lost their job. when you factor that in and when you factor the totality of which income it is actually far more stripped from inflation. this is not sustainable. this should be the area of concern. they should have an emergency about addressing bottlenecks and factors about preventing the equilibrium and prices. that being, said i do think it's really important to look at the extraordinary employment gains that we have seen over the last year, over the last year and a half. and not a value the economy by a single. number >> it is such an important, point the 20 million people who went from no wages, to a job, like inflation bites but, you know, the other way that we can do this is that we can run the economy very, quote we can have a lot more people out of work. there is a thing called the phillips curve which is an old economics idea that there is a trade-off. this is between higher inflation and lower unemployment. you have to sort of find the right balance, that kind of goldilocks. and that is the argument that you're making here, right? if policy makers aim to high, it is better to aim high, and miss high, then to aim low and have millions of people out of work we shouldn't be. >> the labor market is suing faster. not just under great financial crisis which is setting a very low bar. the pace of recovery after the 2008, 2009 crash, was dissimilar. the labor market in the 2001 recession, which is considered by many stretches to be a very shallow recession. there is something else to consider, that, okay, not only have total wages up stripped the gate in total wages that we were measured collectively. not only how they stripped of elation, but if you add in the transcript payment, if you add in the expanded unemployment insurance, if you add in the multiple rounds of checks. then the take home pay for the american household collectively are outstrips and it's considered instantly beating inflation. it's important to do that because many of the critics, when they saved the hide inflation, they save those checks and, say this is what happens when you give people money. this is what happened when you print people money. but, those who went to lower income and zero income at the time, in, such they have definitely come out ahead. if you break down wages, and one more point on, this the one cord style of income earners that is going very fast is actually the bottom percentile. which is something that we don't see in decades. so again six going to one inflation, this concerns everyone. but in a different broader context of the economy, this looks like a price that we are paying for the recovery that we have seen in so many others in labor's and household. >> household income, wages at the bottom part of the skill, which is at the bottom part of the skill among young people, that is sort of an image in quadrant to sort of getting the most inks year. i think that we are going to see big action taken but, i i'm with you on this, aim high and overshoot is better than the opposite because you and i both lived in the aftermath of the great recession in which trillion of dollars of capacity was left on the four for no reason. joe weisenthal who has been a voice of 70 on this for as long as i've been following his work, thank you very much. >> thank you for having me. >> one last note before we, go a special new episode of my podcast out this week, guesswee. jay caspian kang wrote his new book. we are talking about asian-americans. i find it persuasive and provacative. that's all in tonight and "the rachel maddow show" starts. >> thank you. good evening. our various cases unfolding and courtrooms around the country. the trial in georgia of the three men accused of killing an african-american jogger in their neighborhood running him down in their january of last year.

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