the last best hope of earth. you are its in heritage. >> that's colin powell addressing add howard university back in 1994. the university was going through racial tensions and his words had such meaning now and back then as well. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it's tuesday, october 19th, along with joe and willie and me, we have our columnist and editor of "the washington post" and our political analyst, eugene robinson and former aide to the george w. bush, elise jordan and our associate editor for the washington post, david ignaci is joining us. the suit which was expected to lock the committee from obtaining his administration records from the archives in the 26 page complaints, a lawyer argues that the record must remains a secret as a matter of executive privilege. in a joint statement, betsy thompson and vice chair liz cheney, the committee vows to fight for the former president's attempt to obstruct our investigation. the house-select committee is laying out its criminal case against steve bannon. the panel rejected his arguments for failing to cooperate with its investigation. bannon has argued he can't respond to a subpoena but the panel due to executive privilege. the committee also released a criminal content detailing efforts to get bannon to comply with the subpoena. the report will be the subject of a committee meeting later this evening when the panel is expected to vote and to prove the contempt charge. it's possible the vote can be taken up by the full house as early as this week. it would then go to the justice department, so joe, the wheels are turning. >> they are. eugene robinson, you can't claim executive privilege if you were not working for the president of the united states. this is not con job by steve bannon. >> con and delay, delay. there is no claim of executive privilege here, absolutely. there is nothing here except the attempt to string this out and not have to testify and you know i hope the committee holds on a vote tonight. they need to move this process along as quickly as possible and attempts to string it out. >> you know elise, either congress has a power of subpoena or it does not over the past four or five years, there is one congressional subpoena after another that was ignored by the white house. it happens too often. there has to be consequences to subpoenas issued by congress not being enforced and being ignored. i wonder if congress is finally going to realize that and steve bannon is going to be their example? >> he should be. you look at this and it's ridiculous that congress unwilling to enforce their power and to use their power and bring in steve bannon and capitol police have to bring him in? i am for it at this stage in the game. we have to treat what happened on january 6th with due seriousness. do you think this will be the moment that pushes congressional leaders to the edge and they say okay, stop the shenanigans and stop trying to tie up in legal, we are going to actually use our power and force steve bannon to come in. >> well, they certainly should. again, i think they should do that whether they are republicans ignoring the subpoena or democrats ignoring their subpoenas. they have a legitimate oversight responsibility. why did they even have congressional subpoenas if the white house ignores them. >> those subpoenas are either real or not. if someone knocks at our door and compels to bring us in. so much of this is on the white house. the biden administration said about executive privilege it does not apply here. the matter is too heavy and important to public interests and too great and turn those records over. they are reviewing a second batch. extraordinary man of power to make this continue to flow. in the meantime these subpoenas need to have real teeth behind them. we'll see if congress does that. the white house is pretty busy right now, ramping up pressure right now. president biden is leading a flurry of meetings with key lawmakers to find a way to pass the reconciliation bill. the president spoke with senator manchin by phone yesterday. manchin signalled in recent dates he opposes the clean energy in the bill which endangers biden's climate bill plan. representative jayapal met with the president yet. a meeting with moderates will follow that. senator sinema also will meet with the president today. the leaders of the factions of the democratic party met yesterday, senator joe manchin and bernie sanders acting as the head of the moderates and progressive wings of the congress met to negotiate. here are the lawmakers after that conversation. >> how was your one-on-one meeting with bernie sanders? >> or your meeting with congresswoman jayapal? >> it was a good meeting. >> get a picture of us, huh? >> we are talking. >> you will have a resolution by the end of the week? >> we are talking, that's all. >> get a picture of us says manchin. he also met with progressive chair jayapal. the two spoke for two hours but only lay out their priorities for the bill reportedly did not get into any negotiations, that according to an nbc source. we saw senator manchin and senator sanders being seen together, take our picture, we are talking. despite everything you see spill out in the pages of the newspapers in west virginia. what's going on here? what does senator manchin want and what can he give bernie sanders to get this thing moving again? >> what's going on is called a regular order. it's freaking everybody out. over the past five or six or seven or eight years there has been three people in the house or three people until the senate gotten quietly behind closed doors, they drafted these massive bills that everybody else just blindly follows along. it's one of the main complaints of people that i served in congress with in the past that are saying you know we don't vote on anything. bills don't go through both chambers. there is not the back and forth and the compromising. well, this is what's happening. i don't think this is messy. i think this is beautiful. i love that we are having this back and forth and all these debates over infrastructure. i saw somebody on twitter calling joe manchin evil yesterday. it was a breath of fresh air having to be called evil on their infrastructure bill. it's not nice for joe manchin or it would not be nice for you and me. >> they candace agree on things. >> this is a return to normalcy. i was talking to david ignacious and charlie. you are not looking forward to the time where i can say you hate america because you want to balance a budget and you are concerned about inflationary interests. we had a big laugh. that's the return to normalcy. what we are seeing here this give and take, this is what makes democracy so beautiful. they are not going to come to a number that's going to make either one of them happy. but, they're going to get there because they're talking and they know it's best for the country and i am sorry, let me stop for a second and say regular order is beautiful. put that on my gravestone. that'll put them to sleep. regular order is beautiful. we are not talking about revolution, we are not talking -- we are talking about the regular back and forth between people who have strong principle disagreements with each other. >> joe, regulatory orders sound so "regular," it's soothing to hear the words but i am sorry, this is another form of brinksmanship. if this process and -- the news articles of the statements have been becoming more, you know, joe manchin's ugly vision and as if the progressives and manchin in each and their way trying to destroy the public. maybe this is essential to get to a compromise, but personally i think the country would be better served by some stronger leadership than the president, this is his agenda. he needs to force consensus within the democratic caucus. it has been battled out for months now. this is the period where the president's poll rating has been plummeting. part of that is people don't want to see this vision of washington. you may love it. you used to work here. a lot of americans don't like it because they think it leads to an impasse. it leads to inaction. if democrats can quickly come to a number that works on the build better, social spending bill and get this stuff enacted in a way that people can see it. you pass a $1.2 trillion infrastructure, you will see it your own town. that's what people want to see. the sooner the better. >> it's best for joe biden to get that infrastructure bill passed. jean robinson, i reflect back on my time up there. we came into balance the budget in seven years s we go on the floor and we had a thousand amendments and every time we had an amendment we would be like, if this does not pass then our economy will collapse and inflation will explode and la, la, la, la, we did it everyday. finally after a year and a half we walk on the floor and somebody screaming about a $33 million to defend appropriations bill. you know we have been saying the world is going to come to an end every night for a year and a half? if all of our amendment cutting and all the budgets did not pass, we are still here and still okay, let's sit back and take a deep breath and keep fighting but not be so apocalyptic about it. this is a process that's supposed to play out. >> it's hard for congress to sort of get used to regular order again because it has not been like that for a while. i don't think there is anything unhealthy about this dispute and this argument among democrats because indeed there is a range of opinion within the party. it's as i have said many times, the democrats have to recognize the entire range of political opinion in this country right now. the republican party is taking a hike. yes, you have a conservative view. you have, you know, a more fiscal and liberal view and you got manchin and sanders. i think that i can be wrong on this, i hope i am not wrong. so now even today president biden is inviting all of the factions in yesterday and today. they're going need orthopedic services have their arms are twisted presumably and we'll see if this advances. it does not mean tonight at midnight there is going to be an agreement. it could mean that they are closer and this is kind of the way the process is meant to work. it takes a little getting used to but this is the way it used to be. >> this is not rocket science. manchin and sinema started around 1.7 and they told schumer that. you have progressives with 3.5 trillion and both sides stared at each other for a couple of months. this is going to end up some where between 1.8 or $2.1 trillion if they want infrastructure passed. there are a lot of democrats that are looking and going well, better to get it, you know, 2 or $2.5 trillion spending done than no spending done. that's a calculation they made and now they have to get bernie and joe and other democrats together and figure out where that number ends up and where the deal ends. >> and $2 trillion seems to be the sweet spot of what would be politically palable to both sides here and when are the progressives going to come around on realizing to get some of this passed is better than holding out and ending up getting nothing especially at a time when president biden is pretty desperate for a political win and does not need this to go on and on into thanksgiving. so i am still hoping they are going to -- >> go ahead, elise, finish. >> i hope they get it together and get it together within the next couple of weeks. >> we can only hope. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll take a look at other headlines. madeline albright will be our guest this morning and the kidnap in haiti. the fbi is stepping in. bill cassidy said this week that he won't vote for donald trump if he runs for the white house in 2024. that earned him a new nickname from the former president, of course, you are watching "morning joe," we'll be right back. "morning joe," we'll be right back mission control, we are go for launch. um, she's eating the rocket. ♪♪ lunchables! built to be eaten. this is the new world of work. each day looks different than the last. but, whatever work becomes, the world works with servicenow. regina approaches the all-electric cadillac lyriq. it's a sunny day. nah, a stormy day. classical music plays. um uh, brass band, new orleans. ♪ ♪ she drives hands free... along the coast. make it palm springs. ♪ cadillac is going electric. if you want to be bold, you have to go off-script. experience the all-electric cadillac lyriq. it's moving day. and while her friends are ydoing the heavy lifting,. jess is busy moving her xfinity internet and tv services. it only takes about a minute. wait, a minute? but what have you been doing for the last two hours? ...delegating? oh, good one. move your xfinity services without breaking a sweat. xfinity makes moving easy. go online to transfer your services in about a minute. get started today. 16 of them americans who were kidnapped over the weekend in haiti. the haitian tells the wall street journal the gang responsible demanding a $17 million ransom. nbc's news correspondent sam brock has the latest. >> reporter: still no answers about whether 17 kidnapped missionaries will be rescued or how? part of that effort, a state department team is on the ground, the ohio based christian missionaries say among those abducted are children and americans. >> you can't get out to find. >> reporter: protesters lining on pavement demanding an end to haitian deportations after earthquakes, a presidential assassination and kidnapping. >> do you worry they'll not survive? >> everyday you live in haiti, you are lucky. every single day you live in haiti, you see another day, you are lucky. >> reporter: kidnapping have been skyrocketing. a research out of haiti points to much larger figure with 600 kidnappings through september including a threefold increase in just three months. the florida immigration born and raised in haiti, tessa petit. >> it's like living in haiti, you don't know when you are going to get kidnapped. >> it's hair raising because you are going to have 40 dead people in your hospital in a matter of hours if you don't succeed. it's complex when you have to go through a gang to get the oxygen. >> there is sam brock reporting there. we'll be following the story. the fda is expected to authorize boosters of moderna and johnson & johnson by tomorrow morning. the agency authorized booster shots of the pfizer vaccine of these sixth months after the second dose. also expected from the fda, allowing people to get a different covid-19 vaccine as a booster than the one they initially received. mixing and matching is okay with the boosters. the first major college coach has lost his job over vaccination status. washington state filed the football coach nick rolovich and four of his assistants for refusing to get the vaccine. thousands of employees to be vaccinated. rolovich applied for religious exemption. it was delayed. we got the sad news of colin powell who died at the age of 84 from covid. nbc's andrea mitchell has more. >> reporter: colin powell who charted two tours in vietnam became a household name. later his america's first black secretary of state succumbing to covid. he was fully vaccinated but suffered from prostate cancer and suffered from parkinson's. >> any regrets you didn't run? >> i had to think about it because it was expected and i am a soldier. but, after a few weeks ago i realized that this is not me. this is not what i can do. >> reporter: his so-called pottery barn move of war, if you break it, you own it, led him to privately opposed the iraq war. we were with him in afghanistan in 2002. >> it's going to take the national committee. >> reporter: making the case to the u.n. that sudan husan had weapons. >> the correct answer is he's not a muslim. he's a christian. he's always a christian. the really right answer is what if he is? is there something wrong being a muslim in this country? the answer is no. that's not america. >> reporter: tributes around the world including president biden. >> he's one of the great man. >> reporter: we stay out of the spotlight, one exception this moment two years ago. >> when i walk up to him, i said you are general colin powell and he says yes, i am. >> i know he was one of my guys. >> reporter: when powell's car got a flat, the amputee pulled over and helped him fix it. he writes on facebook, thanks anthony, let's stop screaming each other and take care of each other. you remind us what this country is about. >> bob woodward spoke with the state secretary in july. 50 interviews he conducted with powell over the course of 32 years. >> well, you see i have got to go to the hospital about two or three times a week. i have parkinson's disease and i have got myeloma cancer but otherwise, i am fine. >> oh, don't feel sorry. >> i have not lost a day of life. i am in good shape. >> joe, that was in july. you can still hear the life of general powell's voice. what a powerful figure. you listen to the speech we started the show of 1994 of the american families. i was watching that yesterday and you have to ask yourself who can make that speech today? who stand of that level of respect and authority that comes from general powell and risen up to this country and became a four-star general and commands the respect of republicans and democrats and people of all races in this country. it's hard to think of someone. >> he's, he stands alone. he has stood alone in public service for some time. i often talk about some of my friends and family members that will e-mail me or text me with conspiracy theories they find on facebook. but i found so fascinating yesterday that i got nothing but letters and e-mails of people mourning the passing of this great american. and of course what i thought made it so beautiful about people on the left and the right stopping to praise general colin powell is a fact that he gave both sides reasons to attack in 2008. he started saying very harsh things about the republican party, and endorsed barack obama and became more critical of republicans over the next decade and yet there were still so many conservatives and republicans yesterday mourning the loss of this great man and the same thing on the democratic side. democrats obviously upset of his u.n. speech and the march towards war believing he should have done more about it. the praise coming from the left as well. overwhelming and remembering this great soldier, this great statesman and this great man. david ignacious, he's a man who really trim himself. he was quite critical after january 6th. he was quite critical of donald trump and yet some of those who praised him are mourning the loss of general powell. explain why he held as a soldier statesman and why he held this special place in american hearts? >> the life force that general powell conveys in every encounter with people. we heard him in that tape that bob woodward made back in july when he was sick and heading towards eventually was his death, saying i have not lost a day of my life. don't feel sorry for me. it was that spirit, determination, you think of colin powell being american dreams and son of immigrants who rise at the top rank of our military and became secretary of state. i was thinking of the american dreams that he embodies it and horrible phrases that donald trump used. picture of america that lost its way and you think of someone like colin powell who kept his ambulance through life. i wrote this morning about colin powell's role of a reluctant warrior, he was a general who knew the price of war. that's why he argued so strongly against the invasion of iraq. he went to president george w. bush and pleaded with him not to do this. he finally said okay, let's take it to the u.n. and that's how powell ended up with the terrible situation in the u.n. making the case of the bases of flawed intelligence. he was as man who knew the dangers of war. knew that war was the last resort. he was reluctant warrior in politics. this is a man may have been president, we all sense that because of his leadership quality. in the end he could see all the downsides, his wife and kids didn't want him to do it. he's somebody that we celebrated and embodying the absolute best that we have in our country. colin powell had that and it comes back to the founding of our country. >> mika, he always talked about optimism and who was a force and multiplier. you saw that. he was an optimist and he believed in the best of america. we showed that clip, there is that moment earlier that we showed when he walked out, they asked him what his strategy was. he said, "our strategy is to cut-off the enemy and destroy the enemy." >> he's blunt to the point and he believes in winning the war and bringing the troops home. that resonated with the american people who were still living in the after math of vietnam. >> jean robinson, your new column is entitled how colin powell shouldered the special pride. you write about this. >> there is a special pride but also a special burden in being the first black, fill in the blank. the weight was light as a feather. his american power cited by many politicians over the years as a sign of the nation's supposed color blindness alleged proof that we have managed to lead racism behind. powell was acutely race conscious, aware he was always scrutinized and judged in ways that white men would have to endure. that sets the stage for the disasterous war in iraq. powell refused to let it define him. he moved on. the first rule of being the first black anything, look to the future, not to the past. and jean, in many ways that will be part of his legacy. >> yeah. >> in looking at his passing when you look at the right and left on twitter, anywhere is commanding respect for this general. >> he was a remarkable person. you could have written yesterday about any one of many aspects of this multi-faceted man. i chose direction because it's something that i knew he had to deal with. i heard about it. and later the secretary of state and the first black man security adviser, that's a burden to be in that vanguard and to be in that generation that breaks the barrier and that under goes a kind of scrutiny on that. it's hard for others to imagine so i went yesterday to someone else who had experienced this, eric holder. he told me how it felt to him as to people really understood this. you are under a microscope and you can't let that paralyze you. you have to do the job and have confidence in yourself and move forward. he certainly did that. he was just a remarkable, remarkable person and it was a guy that i had known he was so ill. it was a genuine shock yesterday to learn on "morning joe" that he had passed. he was such a person to so many people for so many years. it was a very sad day. >> as you say, jean, there is plausible -- he'll be the first black president if he does decide to run given his popularity at this time. there is the military side of general powell and the moral authority that we have been talking about. we showed a clip on general powell addressing the birthism conspiracy and calling it racist. this is not true, we have to say it's not true and we have to make the case for our policies and ideas and not get into this stuff which of course infected the party down the road. you think of republicans today, you have to look and check with donald trump before they stayed with my opinions. general powell never had that problem, it's something that's in short supply today. >> it was general powell's super power that he was able to be one of the most successful political general in american history. he never became completely seen as a political animal and political creature. he had a certain moral authority that was able to rise above. >> he maintained a level of -- he was able to rise before. >> an idea that i think so many in the national security circles, i think fondly after the debacle and he really rise and he had the successful navigation in world war ii. he's associated with the marshal plan and you look atgeneral powell, he's managing to hit that kind of apex and so few, other military leaders and political leaders ever hit. >> all right, i want to bring in dr. vin gupta. he's an nbc news medical contributor. thank you for being on this morning. we do have a couple of covid questions for you. specific to this story, we had heard that general powell died of covid related complications and we heard that he had other diagnoses that he was dealing with. can you explain the booster and the vaccine's efficacy. what do you think may have happened here? >> what we know of multiple -- it's a cancer of the cells that produce antibodies. these plasma cells and your bloodstream, the cells that produce the antibodies these are what becomes cancerous and they're sensing of a multiple myloma. their protection level is as low as 20% all the way to 40%. it's dramatically lower than most individuals where otherwise healthy and that protection level is ending up at the hospital over 90%. that's why there is significant immune -- >> so he had not received his booster yet. he was going to get it but failed ill. ken, what do we know about the booster, could it make a difference for someone who's impaired and the general population, can the booster correct from a breakthrough more than just the first two vaccines. >> for the general population, if you are otherwise healthy and less than 65, a third shot increasing your protection, not only intensity ending up to the hospital but 100%. it eliminates a chance to go test positive and making that risk down to zero. >> for somebody like general powell, if he had gotten the third shot or somebody had a similar immunocompromised, that shird shot, the answer is we don't really know. i does help, if you have a serious conditions like multiple myoloma. that'll handle your -- no mamt of booster shots is going to be enough for somebody who has a serious condition. >> dr. gupta, good morning. you gotten into it a little bit here. >> the news yesterday, give me some ammunition to conspiracy theory. as someone who treats these patients and understand it better than anyone sitting on the set right now, just give you a crack. this provides some evidence to them that the vaccines don't work. >> you know wily, i would say this is the case for any vaccine as individuals that are older have serious underlying conditions. >> it's not as expensive to rack seen whether it's the covid vaccine or the hip hepatitis vaccine, that's apart of how your body responds. >> these conspiracy theoryists really are talking out of both sides out of their mouth here. >> this is expected. we knew general powell with this type of conditions, had we known he had this con, he'll be at exceptional high risk. >> no amount of vaccination is going to fully protect them the way we are protected or otherwise healthy less than 65 years of age. dr. verizon gupta. thank you very much. >> joe speaks with a counselor relations, richard hawes. >> he knew colin -- it's about what makes his legacy so incredible especially during these divided times. coming up, the battle for 2024, the future of the gop, the washington examiners joins us with a new look at the rise of donald trump and how? >> the republican party has been affected by his time in office. >> morning joe will be right back. 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(whines) ♪♪ ♪ ohh ohh ♪ i d d so my y quesonons eouout hicacase.y y son, ♪♪ cacalledhehe bars s fi i d d soit was the best call eouout hii could've made. ♪♪ call the barnes firm and find out what your case all could be worth.uld've made. ♪♪ ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ and find out what your case all when a truck hit my car,ade. ♪♪ ♪the insurance companyed, wasn't fair. eight million ♪ i didid't t kn whahatmy c caswa, so i called the barnes firm. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to k how much their accident case is worth.h barnes. t ouour juryry aorneneys hehelpou if he runs, he wins the nomination? >> no, i don't know that. president trump is the first to lose the house in the senate in the presidency four years. >> you think if he ran, he can lose the nomination? >> well, if you want to win the presidency, hopefully that's what voters are thinking about. i think he may. >> that's bill cassidy interview. the former president referred to cassidy as "wacky bill," joining us, david drucker, he's ginning us, congratulations on the book. good to see you. donald trump leaves over everything in the republican politics right now. the question whether he'll run is on everybody's mind. we have seen some of the people that you profiled in this book. pompeo and circling around the idea of running to 2024. >> it's an interesting process for them. of of the most interesting things i have learned is that so many people i have reported on in the book with vn planning run for president activeactively, w find so fascinating is you wait for the incumbent in your party. if you win, great, if you loses, too bad. whether we are talking about mike pompeo or ted cruz or mike pence, all of them started search sketching out a presidential campaign. almost at the moment, donald trump assumed office. nobody was waiting for him and i think it was a decision of unusual figure. now, they find himself that he when you look at the down ballot results of the 2020 elections. notwithstanding of what happened in jazz but so much had to do with trump spernlly. >> this becomes a complicated things for them. they know so many of their voters, that's so much of what we are shorthanded in terms of the policy general that that has grown up around trump and defy by him. seemed to have worked so well with so many voters. >> you know, david, that's what's so interesting is under donald trump, republicans lost the white house, they lost the senate, they lost the house of representatives. >> no president has had such a horrible record. and yet, it's still an active question on what to do with this man and not only lost the white house. but, also seem to go out of his way to lose the state of gas for republicans. to lose the senate for republicans and now is doing the dame thing in georgia in a gubernatorial race where he's endoring stacey abrams. >> it's really fascinating. when i sat down with, i asked about the special session on january 6th. i said to him even if you think there are changes and laws that are necessary, could you have said that these are very important elections, you can trust the system go out and vote. he kind of looked at me and said well, i gave a couple of rallies. but i didn't say as long as you say. >> he understands the impact he had on the georgia's races. he understands very well of the impact he had. i was there talking to him the day after ted cruz, posted a picture of the mar-a-lago, he said i talk to more republicans wanting more for me now than when i was in washington. even though donald trump will periodically say things that people are scratching their head. he's aware of the influence he had in washington. so much of it really is the influence he had with voters. >> when people say what are republicans afraid of. it's not so much they are afraid of trump. they are afraid of voters that'll follow him anywhere. >> david, elise jordan here. some republicans who were out there behind the scene opposing the big lie and work to plant down on donald trump's big lie that the election had been stolen from him. can you tell us about that report? >> yeah, this was really interesting and something i noticed in realtime. the two big things i learned at the time that i flushed out. one was tom cotton who was always aligned with himself with donald trump and working with mitch mcconnell and keeping the number of senate republicans who would object to certification at a minimum, if not it's zero. >> he actually moved up by a few days, his announcement that he would oppose objections in order to get covered with some other republicans so they can say, tom cotton is not an enemy of donald trump. he's against objecting. so this is something of the mainstream of the party. if it was antitrump, tom cotton would not be doing it. >> for me what i learned, part of what mike pence sets out to do that he's not going to overthrow the election. if he wanted a paper trail so that a future president got the same idea, they would already understand as a matter of constitutional law and i use the word president loosely. there is a rope mad laid out that this is investigated and determined under the law that we could not do. i'm take it for granted that the founders did not put in this constitution with the weird back door that the respect had the power along who won the election. >> mike pen pound that propos -- >> he wanted this on paper and the next time somebody tried it, people can pull into these documents. >> mike pence is out publicly on television on january 6th, quote, "one day in january." >> let me ask you, david, before you go, someone who sat with the former president. is there any chance that donald trump would not run for 2024? >> sure, i think it's a chance cht part of it has to do with how weak he perceives. that has to do with whether or not he wants to be president again. >> it may turn out that donald trump likes being an ex-president than a president. there are trapping with both. when you are an ex-president, all the tramming were good and no downside. i think he's serious running a third time. i don't think it's something he's making up for a fact. i don't think it's a decision he's actually made. if he proceeds. the possibility of trump's campaign decreases. >> the book is in "trump's shadow." >> latest episode features joe. thank you very much for being on. >>. joe, here we go with the questions surrounding the former president and i do see him liking the -- i think he was very constrained in the white house which puts him in a different position now. >> i wonder how much he enjoyed being at mar-a-lago and having one republican after another coming down and act like sycophants and begging him for their enforcement. >> instead of getting battered d beaten up in press everyday and having to deal with the things he had to deal with inside the white house, he can sit there and play king maker and go out and golf. >> who knows what he prefers doing? >> i am sure we'll find out in the months and years to come. mika, we have something more significant to talk about. willie, we kept jonathan lemire off as long as we could. >> we wanted a new york law requires at least one hour cooling off period from the time he finishes this show and the time he comes on the show. willie, let's start with you first. it's interesting the red sox pounded the astros again last night. what's so fascinating a bt this and we talked about it before with those cardinals teams for 6 and 11. you had a team really having trouble getting it together throughout the year. how many times we have seen things start clicking and september when they get ready for october. that did not happen with the red sox. you guys swept us the week before. >> the week before the end of the season then we lost three out of three out of baltimore. i had to come back from a 5-1 deficit in washington against the nationals to make the wild card for a chance to play you all a couple of nights later. it's an improbable story. it says a lot about the magic of october. you never know what's going to happen. >> yeah. >> they're going the lord's work. i would say that. this astros team three gland grand slams in three games. there are some magic in this red sox team. i am a yankees fan, it hurts a little bit. it's hard not to watch fenway erupting on october 9th and that being excited of what happened and particularly against the astros team. jonathan lemire, you and i were both stunned that we on "morning joe" waited until 7:02 a.m. by my account to bring up the red sox winning a game bringing him one step closer to the world series. >> yeah, there was real concern among viewers, something had gone terribly wrong we waited until this mullet. if you love life, you love the boston red sock. >> i believe you just said that. >> the scenes at fenway. >> it was electric. the green light, grand slam. the third grand slam in two days. and federal red sox knock on wood have yet to lose the game there in postseason. >> you and i have had a few conversations. yes, our friends tweets, there had been 23 games, a total of 46 starts by starting pip hers. only seven have gone innings. >> they're getting some start of pitching. takes a little pressure off that bullpen. they keep on hitting and hitting. >> yeah, it's looking better in the postseason they they have all years. you know jean robinson, peter, we are always waiting for the other shoes to fall. you share some of that when it comes to the red sox with us. it was after a grand slam or two. you need another least six runs. >> i was still sweating it out. >> there are reasons to rett it out. they are the astros. they can explode in any game and any given moment. i would not think the series is necessarily over yet. however the red sox have dominated. they absoluted dominated. they have been good enough to dominate in early eninks. >> they passed my magic six run threshold and i can absolutely be reasonably wake this morning, not having to watch the entire game. >> i have always been, i have learned my lessons in 1996, atlanta beat the yankees. i was reading the atlanta journal constitutional. they were comparing the braves to 27 yankees. >> the behaviors turn around and lost the next four games. >> make sure, this series is nowhere close to being over and willie speaking of those atlanta braves. they can tell you that from last year. >> they went up 2.0 against the dodgers. they're up two games and nothing against the dodgers again this year. i am wondering if it may go any different for atlanta, what do you think? >> great start for the braves. they're up 2-0. they're also on this incredible run as we have said a few times in the show. they lost one of the great players in baseball. they sort of grinded it out for the division title. their hay are up 2-0. no one rests easy against the teams that won 106 games during the regular season. he heads back tonight to los angeles time out there. >> braves are in good shape. they are playing a really good team. tonight is a huge game in boston. >> three-one is a different game. my red sox phantom is temporary. i encourage you to get the job done. squash this evil bee. i will move on and roots for the braves and dodgers. >> it sounds transactional. i don't know. >> it's it is a wet sox van. >> it's chill li. >> this is again it's like me cheering for the yankees and 2001, after 9/11 and my father was still cheering for both sides. i am going to move on now. >> former president biden filed a new lawsuit against the house-select committee against the january 6 other insurrection and the national archives. >> the chute was expected to block the committee from obtaining his administrations from the a kied. a lawyer from the former president argues that the record must remains secrets as a matter of executive privilege. >> betsy thompson and vice chair liz shaneny. >> the house select committee is playing out its criminal contempt case against steve bannon. the committee sent a letter to bannon's attorney on friday informing him the panel had rejected his argument for failing to cooperate with this investigation. >> bannon argued he can't respond to the preponderance due to executive privilege. >> the committee detailing effects to get bannon to comply with the president. >> the panel is expected to vote. just one one point. >> it seems like there are some, they'll martyr themselves and they can really, these people work outside the lines. >> from what we have seen far in terms of responding to subpoenas. >> yeah, but i think members of the committee would make the case, we can't let a temper deny trauma by steve bannon. >> they wointed out correctly, let's turn now to president biden and general colin powell. the president ordered flags to flow half staff. the president spoke about the passing of general powell yesterday during a ceremony at the white house. >> our friend colin powell as he just lost. athbt him. one of our great military leaders in the man. this is a guy born of son of immigrants and in new york city and raised in harlem and. >> he rose to the highest ranks not only the military but also in varies of foreign policies and states craft. >> this is a guy that we talk about who had teachers, who looked at this african-american kids and says you can do anything. >> all i want to say rear heg is really is don't under investigate? >> joining us now, miss albright. i want to know, madame secretary. what came into your mind when you heard of the news in terms of who we lost? >> what i really thought about was he was in comparable. we lost an american hero, i have to say personally a very good friend. it's a public host and a personal lost and i do think we need to remember thim with all honors that he deserves. >> can you tell us about your relationship, we heard him on the phone with woob woodward talking about his, even when his health was failing. >> what do you remember about your recollection with him that struck you? >> well, i think it really was the apablety of something honest tactics with him. >> i think people don't realized that we were friends even before we were in office. and then we had some interesting discussions. we didn't always agree but we really after we were both out of office. we talked on the phone secretly and we did a lot of echbtss together. we got to know each other personal ily or even better in terms of things he was doing. >> he's interests in young people and education. he started a tool at city challenge where he went. >> we talked about the things he did and dealt with young people. he was a dedicated citizen and very none any. we had some discussions about drivering. a lot of different things. >> so we really guide become really good friends. >> well, let's just say a bit combative conversation. they would go back and north and they ended the conversation when they were done, general powell would say to him, are we good? >> and he would say yes, general, we are good. >> i am rebinded and we talked about it yesterday after he learned of his passing that the heated conversation between you and general powell regarding troops and bosnia. i thought it was a short of debate that you have to have inside a white house because you're experience about sending troops to the balkin men powell rural views and the marsh he saw in vietnam. i thought it was beautiful coming together. we learned two completely different things from their own lives. it sharpenings the debate. it really helped everybody around you to. >> joe, you have described it very well. the importance within those what we call principles meetings where people meet in the white house situation to discuss what policies to drechbt to the the. >> it's important for people to rent their views which may be different. >> you have stayed, i do consider boois as part of the immune i can generation the way way -- >> i was at that stage of the united nation where we were talking about it is baltic and the cleansings. we came at it in a different way. i will never forget the first meeting. he came in full uniformed and tul hand some man and i was arguing with him, i did believe that we needed to do something about the balkins. when he wrote his book, he said i gave him an anuegris many. >> i can't believe what you were saying but we are fine. >> the sparring is not just to spar but that's the responsible way to make decisions. you need to hear the different voices from people who come at ate from a different way. we certainly were able to understand each other where we were coming from and it made, i think it made our friendship even deeper. >> back in 2013, colin powell joined "morning joe" as barack obama was sworn for a second term. >> powell offered some pathetic words about republican efforts to suppress the votes. >> when you lose an election by popular vote, when you see that 73% of asian-americans, 73% of hispanic americans, 94% of african-americans voted for the president and not for the body. >> you have to ask yourself do we have to do something down in immigration. >> should we tone down some of the things we have been doing. >> probably it should be a party where we want everybody to vote and make it easier for people to vote and give them a reason to vote for the party. >> secretary albright. i am talking about the republican party. that lefrl of moral authority. >> we have, ill really do think that was something that colin had the apablety of saying all that and really explaining it that it was country and the kind of things it has to happen. >> and i have wished that more republicans had listen to him and are listening to him because i happen to believe in the importance of having a two lease, a multi party system so you can hear those differences and talk to people with respect. i do think what colin was saying about immigration, one of the things we actually had in common is his parents had been immigrants coming from jamaica. i actually came from czech when i was 11-year-old and was a naturalized americans. >> those of us who came some where else were grateful and willing to contribute with public service and understand the importance of honest discussion and the importance of the constitutional and the role that people play? toll lynn really expressed it so very, very well and in the larger constitutional terms. >> secretary albright, it's jean robinson, talk a bit about since you have the experience about him as secretary of state and leader of the diplomatic core, what impact did hesitate in that job? >> well, i have to you when he was named secretary of state and i still was. he came over to my house and we had a wonderful meeting in terms of things of diplomacy was about how we would do things. >> i talked about what it was like at the state department. he also and i think understood anybody. he took that experience from his military service and he did go arnds and talk to the droops and really got people together. >> he also had understood the importance of lending diplomacy with other parts of the government because of his national security adviser. he brought an awful a lot of his background to the job he was doing as secretary of state. i have now heard from a number of our former colleagues and ministers who were saying what a wonderful person he was and he understood america's role but he also understood the importance of partnerships. >> so in a new column, bob woodward reflected back on his conversations with secretary powell and shared details of their last interview reported on july 1st. >> buy den weighted in on biden's position and drit drawing all u.s. troops. >> folks, i thought he had to get out there eventually, let's g it over with. >> you are not going to win. afghanistan are going to win. they have runs willing to fight and die for thissy of theirs. it's why i don't have any problems of us getting out from there. we can't go from 100,000 u.s. troops and down to 100 and thinking that'll prevail. >> pal also discussed north korea. who you would you find a way to attacking us without us destroying them the next morning. >> iran and we are going to be terrified of these people? >> no. >> would they bear? >> he continued. >> the chinese are not going to let us start a war with north korea. >> north korea does not bother me. >> let the lit jerk, king jung hewn has his parade or not. >> we'll never try to atrack us because he knees it would be suicide. >> there we see colin powell not too many months ago looking at slee of the most depressing problem. >> suggesting that the united states should be a bit less worried about all three of them. they are not the existial past. >> what your thoughts on those insights? >> i would lover to mention one thing. what did he talk about? >> i had tom from north korea, quite prank prankly, i have been one of the highest levels to go to north korea in 2000s. what happens was we were in the middle of negotiations with them and i passed onto colin what we were doing and he wanted to carry on what was going on. >> all of a sudden there was a headline, koul to can't, he was hauled into the white house and told no way. >> i do think one of the issues was we have not really i cannen advantage of some of the openings. he also was able to understand when to use force and one of the most interesting things was his whole doctrine of overwhelming force that we had to know what we were doing. one of the parts hard in dealing with a military genius that he said you have to always have an exit strategy. you can't do in if you don't have an exit strategy. i have to say that's not always easy to come up with. i think he spoke the truth. it was not always easy. here is a man who always spoke the truth and is honorable. >> woodward asked, who was the most notable person you known? >> it was alma powell. she was always there for me and she tells me that's not a good idea. >> she's usually right. >> alma powell was such a presence in his life. absolutely his best friend. >> and also warned her adam secretary, warn him not toe talk with bob woodward again and again. >> he kept on talking to bob. >> well, tell us about alma this morning? >> well, really fantastic. he has been a art scribner with him with promise to america. >> she is a warm and wonderful person. we have had contact and i spoke to her yesterday and i really do think that he was the balancing act in so many different ways and created a wonderful life for all the family. she really is something that i add fire a great deal. >> former secretary of state, madeline albright, thank you so much for coming on. such an important morning and a great man. >> thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. >> thank you for asking me in remembering him so well. >>. still ahead on "morning owe', when it comes to the election of donald trump as the 45th president of the united states, answering the question were we thinking? 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>> i would point to three take away that. the supposed guard rails of democracy, tg infusion as opposed to protect us. they don't protect themselves. >> they are upheld or with a series of small or incremental positions. one book that help me understand this was called i am making the presidency by susan henderson. they walked through all the norms that were undone during this period and show where they came from and why they mattered. >> another i thought was helpful. it was a book called one person no book. >> it shows how the fight over ving suppression is before present in the american store. finally the book about the trump voters, it's such a sensation during this period. i think that some of them showed that it's far too easy to point to one or two reasons why someone would vote for donald trump. it it always had to do economic struggles. those are the only two possible explanation. they could not overlap like we are still hear by general nova. those things can come together. rather than pushing you towards one candidate or another, you can be left thinking there is no room in the political system for you at all. >> so, speaking of, you write about you referred to is the "hard land look." the debates over trump voter have produced a rush of such books, examining debunking or somehow channelling the white house. analytically they offer a mish-mesh of insights and condesencion. >> i remember people in washington saying i shall go to the hartland and see if the white working class is aching like they are. they throw three hours to pennsylvania. >> the thing that lost was so-called this great populous that was going to answer people whose lives were wrecked by the economy. he got elected when border crossings on the southern border of a 50 year low under barack obama. he got elected at times when crime was such a low rate then in new york city, they had to go back to the 50s and guess how many crimes committed. this pretending it was, you know, 1991 and all of these jobs in new hampshire and going overseas, just didn't not ring true. those were a lot of the books that were still being written. >> and you can see that often writers would interpret the white working class in manners that don't tell neatly with their larger world views why trump was elected. there was this extraordinary case where i encountered two books written the same year. it was in pennsylvania. this guy named harry. >> who had been -- a long time democrat, adel kate to the '92 clinton convention. >> and who switched to voting for donald trump. one vote he was a straight up populist. the whole reason he voted for trump because he didn't like trade deals and like the push's or the clinton's. in another book, the same guy is a cultural worry. he's worried about path rooms and advance gender people. >> he's the same person. what happens is the two authors chose to interpret these widely different lenses. i am not saying it's deliberately misleading but in a way that reflected in some ways of its own views in the way trump wants. >> hey joe, it's jonathan. he's very much still on the stage. their mechanism is moving behind the scenes to set up another run and even if he does not fall through the campaign, a lot of people who would emulate him would. how can we as the media and american populous handle this, or at least trumpism to the stage. >> the media is such a broad category. there are different people who do different things. >> my job is different from what you all are doing on a show like "morning joe." >> i think that not getting caught up in some of the ongoing debates over you know what is the exact proper word choice that we need to use to describe this particular phenomenon? i think that was kind of in instruction during a lot of trump's era. >> never under estimating and one of the things we were thinking of early on was that it's never going to happen that trump was not elected, not just the polls but journalists and both campaigns. >> not feeling that we can anticipate or devine the purposes of the american electorate is one of them. perhaps less predicting and more reporting would be a good start. >> carl, it's jean, congratulations on the book. >> hi jean. >> in all your reading, as you have read all these books, number one, were there too many? did we do too much writing and not enough thinking about trump? is there anything you learn about donald trump from all the writing about the trump's era that you didn't know before? >> you know i read about 150 books and i am still going. they're still coming out. even that was a tiny fraction of what was published. someone did an estimate that during obama's first term there were some 400 or 500 books. and so that said, i am not going to say too many books. a lot of them were terrific books that helps me understand. >> they were about to be the larger history and larger question that this presidency raise. >> so in that sense, i say keep it coming. >> all right, the book is "what were we thinking," a brief intellectual history of the trump's era. >> now out in water back. >> "the washington post," thank you very much for coming on the show. two weeks from today, that'll no longer be the case. yesterday, we talked to one of the candidates and that race for it is coming up. 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>> when i think about the political spectrum, it's about the people and what they need from their mayor. they do not need a leader governed by hashtag. and i consider myself a prague mat cal practitioner to get work done whether about public schools and services or everyday issues like filling potholes or piling the snow because we will at no doubt have a snowstorm at some point this winter. there's a lot of work to do and for me as mayor of the city, it's about doing the work people need. >> good morning, it's jonathan lemire. i'm originally from lowell, massachusetts, and i will say your accent reminds me of home. i just want to ask you, boston, of course, changed dramatically over the decades since growing up in the area and it's gotten much more expensive and the idea of housing in particular and affordability is central so many voters. mine is up there. walk us through what can be done about that, preserving the city's character and recognizing it's a very different place than it was 30, 40 years ago. >> yes, it's a very different place since my parents first emigrated here. i'm a daughter of two immigrants. for sure housing has been an ongoing challenge and crisis here in the city of boston. i have led on the issues of homelessness, family homelessness, individual homelessness and the crisis we are facing here in the city around opioids, mental health and addiction. we need to create opportunities for equality and home ownership, it is essential to end gentrification and misplacement, so they can be provided a home or be the first in their family to own a home. >> this is gene robinson. neither you nor your principal opponent looks like my image over the years of a boston mayor, right? so what has changed in boston? how do you two, two women, become the leading candidates to be mayor of a city, of this city? >> i believe a big part of my success both on the city council and in this race, has been mablt ability to connect with voters across the city of boston, whether it's my immigration story, story of my parents, whether it's my work in boston, i taught for 13 years. my experience building a business in the city, active community member. i'm a parent, my husband and i have four kids, including triplets. i've done the work, lived so many experiences and shared those with the city of boston. but i've also shown up in our communities and our city's residents want to see a reflection of themselves in leadership and leader who's willing to step up and do the work, have the difficult conversations and make decisions. we've got so many of our community that are experiencing vulnerabilities, isolation and disenfranchisement. i'm looking forward to leading the city based on my own personal experiences but also for the people of boston and allowing them to have some shared power. and that proverbial seat at the table in this work. >> annissa, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. marvel fans have to wait a little longer to see some highly anticipated films. disney pushed back the release dates of the next "dr. strange," "thor" and "black panther" movies by a few months. they delayed the next "ant man" film to 2023. it's related to production issues and not box office returns. in addition to those films, the fifth "indiana jones" installment has been pushed back a year for a june 2023 release. last june 79-year-old harrison ford injured his shoulder on the set and needed to take time off to heal. ford has since recovered and is back on set. and in the music world, adele is back with a bang after a six-year break. within 24 hours of releasing her newest single, the british singer shattered are records. spotify announced the singer "easy on me" set a record for the most streams on a single day on the day it was released and received the most first-day alexa song requests in its history. "easy on me" is from adele's highly anticipated album "30," due out november 19th. the album is also expected to top the charts following her successful 2015 album "25," which currently holds the record for highest first-week sales in u.s. album charts history. it's a good song. and still ahead -- former president trump is suing the house committee investigating the january 6th insurrection in order to keep his white house record secrets. we'll have the latest on the fight over executive privilege and the committee's showdown with steve bannon. "morning joe" is coming right back. ready for subway's eat fresh refresh™? that's the new and improved italian b.m.t.®, with new artisan italian bread, new black forest ham, and new mv- you gotta refresh to be fresh! hold up, false start on the spokesperson. save big. order through the app. ♪ as i observe investors balance risk and reward, save big. i see one element securing portfolios, time after time. gold. your strategic advantage. 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(woman) yeah, y-you did. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ i was hit by a car and needed help. i called the barnes firm. that was the best call i could've made. i'm rich barnes. it's hard for people to know how much their accident case is let our injury attorneys know he how much their accident cget the best result possible. i had no idea how much i wamy case was worth. c call the barnes firm to find out what your case could be worth. we will help get you the best result possible. ♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ . as you seek your way in the world, never fail to find a way to serve your community. use your education and your success in life to help those still trapped in cycles of poverty and violence. above all, never lose faith in america, its faults are yours to fix, not to curse. america is a family. there may be differences and disputes in the family, but we must not allow the family to be broken into warring factions. from the diversity of our people let us draw strength and not see weakness. believe in america with all of your heart and soul and with all of your mind, remember that it remains the last, best hope of earth. you are its inheriters and its future is today placed in your hands. >> that is colin powell's address to graduates at howard university back in 1994, an incredible address, especially given the times the university was going through racial tensions and his words had such meaning now and back then as well. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, october 19th. along with joe, willie and me we have pulitzer-prize winning columnist and associated editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson, and former aide to the george w. bush white house and state department, elise jordan and columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius joins us. thank you all for being on. we'll get to more on the passing of senator colin powell in a moment. but first former president donald trump has filed a new lawsuit against both the house select committee investigating both the january 6th insurrection and national archives. the suit, which was expected, seeks to block the committee from obtaining his administration's records from the archives. in the 26-page complaint, a lawyer for the former president argues that the record must remain secret as a matter of executive privilege. in a joint statement from the panel's chair, ben thompson and vice chair liz cheney, the committee vowed to, quote, fight the former president's attempt to obstruct our investigation. meanwhile, the house select committee is laying out its criminal contempt case against former trump adviser steve bannon. the committee sent a letter to bannon's attorney on friday informing him the pam had rejected his arguments for failing to cooperate with its investigation. bannon has argued he can't respond to a subpoena, but the panel, due to executive privilege. it also relates to criminal attempt to get bannon to comply with the subpoena. the report will be the subject of a committee meeting later this evening when the panel is expected to vote and to prove the contempt charge. it's possible the vote could be taken up by the full house as early as this week. it would then go to the justice department. so, joe, the wheels are turning, slowly but they're turning. >> they are, but gene robinson, you can't claim executive privilege when you weren't working for the president of the united states. >> no. >> this is another con job, as somebody said, by steve bannon. >> yes, con, con, con. delay, delay, delay, that's all it is. i'm not a lawyer, you are, but there's no claim of executive privilege here, absolutely. he didn't -- he last worked for the president in 2017 i believe it was. there's nothing here except the attempt to string this out and not have to testify. and, you know, i hope the committee holds -- the committee will hold that vote this morning. they also have a vote tonight. they need to move this process along as quickly as possible and thwart bannon's attempts just to string it out. >> you know, elise, either congress has the power to subpoena or it doesn't. over the past four, five years there was one congressional subpoena after another that was ignored by the white house. it happens too often. it's happening in both parties. there has to be consequences to subpoenas issued by congress not being enforced and being ignored. and i wonder if congress is finally going to realize that and steve bannon is going to be their example? >> you know, he should be. you look at this and it's absolutely ridiculous that congress is unwilling to enforce their power and to use their power and bring in steve bannon and if the capitol police have to bring him in, i'm for it at this stage in the game. we have to have some heft behind these congressional subpoenas and we have to treat what happened on january 6th with due seriousness. joe, do you really think this is going to be the moment that pushes congressional leaders to the edge and they say, okay, stop the shenanigans, stop trying to tie it up in legal. we're going to actually use our power and force steve bannon to come in. >> well, they certainly should. again, i think they should do that whether republicans are ignoring the subpoena or democrats ignoring the subpoena. they have legitimate oversight responsibilities over the administration, and willie, i had a law student asking me over the past four, five years, why do they even have congressional subpoenas if the white house just ignores them? there has to be enforcement. >> those subpoenas either are real or they're not. if you or i ignore a subpoena out here in the real world, somebody knocks on our door and shows up and brings us in and compels us to show up to testify or at least show up and to assert our fifth amendment right and so much of this is on the white house. the biden administration has said to the national archives about executive privilege, it doesn't apply here. the matter is too heavy e. it's too weighty, it's too important, the public interest too great, turn those records over. now they're reviewing a second batch. so the biden administration and this white house has an extraordinary amount of power to make this continue to flow. in the meantime, though, the subpoenas need to have real teeth behind him and we will see if congress does that. white house is pretty busy right now ramping up pressure now on democrats to find a compromise on the party's huge legislative agenda that still sits in front of them. president biden is leading a flurry of meetings with key lawmakers to find a way to pass that reconciliation bill. the president spoke with senator joe manchin of west virginia by phone yesterday. manchin has signaled in recent days he opposes the clean energy provisions in the bill, which endangers the biden climate change plan. progressive caucus chair, congresswoman pramila jayapal of washington state, met with progressives yesterday as well and will immediate with them this afternoon and meeting with moderates follow that. senator krysten sinema will also meet with leaders today. yesterday senators joe manchin and bernie sanders acting as heads of the moderate wings of the caucus met to negotiate ongoing disagreements after a bit of a public spat back and forth, including an op-ed in a west virginia newspaper for bernie sanders. here are the lawmakers after that conversation. >> how was your meeting with your one on one with senator sanders? how was your meeting with congressman jayapal? >> good meeting. >> what did you guys discuss? >> bernie sanders, are you guys going to get together? >> you want to get a picture of us? get a picture of us, since we're talking. >> we're talking. >> you'll have a resolution by the end of the week? >> we're talking, we're talking. we're going to make some progress. >> get a picture of us, says manchin. he also met with jayapal yesterday. they met for two hours but reportedly did not get into any negotiations. that from an nbc source. we saw the senators go to pains to be seen together, take our picture, we are talking despite everything you've seen spill out into the pages of newspapers in west virginia. what's going on here? what exactly does senator manchin want, and what can he give bernie sanders to perhaps get this thing moving again? >> what's going on is what's called the regular order. i think maybe it's freaking everybody out because over the past five, six, seven eight years, there have been three people in the house and three people in the senate that have gotten together quietly behind closed doors, and they've passed continuing resolutions, they've drafted these massive bills that everybody else just blindly follows along. it's one of the main complaints i have from people who served in the congress in the past and say we don't vote on anything, bills don't go through both chambers. there's not the back and forth, there's not the compromising. well, this is what's happening. i don't think this is messy, i think this is beautiful. i love that we're having this back and forth and all of these debates over infrastructure. i actually saw somebody on twitter call joe manchin evil yesterday, and it was such a breath of fresh air to be called evil, having somebody called evil for their position on an infrastructure funding bill instead of being called evil for overthrowing the federal government! of course, it's not nice for joe manchin, it wouldn't be nice for me or you, i'm just saying -- >> the bigger picture together, and they can also disagree on things. >> right. but this is a return to normalcy. i was talking, david ignatius, to charlie pierce. charlie basically said the saft same thing to me talking on the phone, i look forward at the same time where i can in effect say i hate america because you want to balance the budget and you're concerned about inflationary concerns. we had a big laugh saying that's the return to normalcy. what we are seeing here, this give and take, this is what -- this is what makes mad mad sony democracy so beautiful. they are talking and they know what's best for the country. and i'm sorry let me just stop for a second and say regular order is beautiful. put that on my gravestone. that will put them to sleep. regular order is beautiful! we're not talking about revolution. we're not talking -- we're talking about the regular back and forth between people who have strong, principled disagreements with each other. >> joe, regular order sounds so regular. it's almost soothing just to hear the word. but, i'm sorry, this is another form of brinkmanship. if this process and -- news articles and statements have become more and more vitriolic, joe manchin's ugly visions, as if the progressives each in their own way are trying to destroy the republic. maybe it's essential to get to a compromise, but personally, i think the country would be better served by some stronger leadership from the president. this is his agenda, and he needs to forge consensus within the democratic caucus. and it's just been battled out now for months, and i think this is why the president's poll ratings is plummeting, part of that is people don't like to see this division in washington. you may love it, but a lot of americans don't like it because they believe it leads to an impasse, it leads to inaction, and i think they're pretty frustrated with it. if the democrats can quickly come to a number that works on the build back better social spending bill and get this stuff enacted the way people can see it -- you pass a $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill, you're going to see it in your hometown. that's what people want to see and the sooner it happens, the better. still ahead -- a look at some of the other stories making headlines today, including some troubling new development in haiti. the latest on a group of kidnapped missionaries there. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. (burke) i've seen this movie before. (woman) you have? (burke) sure, this is the part where all is lost and the hero searches for hope. then, a mysterious figure reminds her that she has the farmers home policy perk, guaranteed replacement cost. and that her home will be rebuilt, regardless of her limits or if the cost of materials has gone up. (woman) that's really something. (burke) get a whole lot of something with farmers policy perks. wait, i didn't ruin the ending, did i? (woman) yeah, y-you did. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ when you're driving a lincoln, stress seems to evaporate into thin air. which leaves us to wonder, where does it go? does it get tangled up in knots? or fall victim to gravity? or maybe it winds up somewhere over the bermuda triangle. perhaps you'll come up with your own theory of where the stress goes. behind the wheel of a lincoln is a mighty fine place to start. ♪ i'm a reporter for the new york times. if you just hold it like this. yeah. ♪ i love finding out things that other people don't want me to know. mm-hmm. [beep] i just wanted to say... ♪ find yourself in these situations and see who you are. and that's just part of the bargain. ♪ fine, no one leaves the table until your finished. and that's just part fine, we'll sleep here. ♪♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft. for the win win. the fbi is part of the urgent effort to find a group of missionaries and their families, 16 of them americans, who were kidnapped over the weekend in haiti. the haitian justice minister tells "the wall street journal" the gang is responsible, the gang responsible is demanding a $17 million ransom. nbc news correspondent sam brock has the latest. >> reporter: 48 hours after the start of an international crisis in one day after an fbi team touched down in haiti, still no answers about whether 17 kidnapped missionaries will be rescued and how. >> the fbi is part of a coordinated effort to get the u.s. citizens to safety. >> reporter: part of that effort, a safety team also on the ground, the ohio-based christian aid ministries saying among those abducted sr. 16 americans, five of them children. on the streets of port-au-prince and miami, pleas for help for those living in violence. >> you can't get out because if you do, they will kidnap you. >> reporter: protesters lying on pavement, demanding an end to deportations after earthquakes, presidential assassinations and kidnappings forced many to flee. >> your nephews and nieces, do you worry they will not survive another month, another day? >> every single day you live there, every single day you live in haiti, you're lucky. >> reporter: a u.n. report identified 330 kidnappings in the first eight months of the year or 100 all of last year. but a figure in haiti points to much larger figures, 600 kidnappings through september, including a three-fold increase in three months. tessa petite from the florida immigration coalition was borne born and raised in haiti. >> you never know when will you be kidnapped or shot. >> reporter: this man has to negotiate with them to get oxygen tanks for covid patients. >> it's hair-raising because you could have 40 dead people in your hospital in a matter of hours if you don't succeed because and it's very complex if you have to go through a gang to get oxygen. >> sam brock reporting there. we will be following that story. the fda is expected to authorize boosters of the moderna and johnson & johnson covid vaccines by tomorrow evening. the agency authorized booster shots of the pfizer vaccines at least six months after the second dose. also expected from the fda, allowing people to get a different covid-19 vaccine as a booster than the one they initially received. so mixing and matching is okay with the boosters. and on the topic of covid, the virus is being blamed for contributing to the death of colin powell. we'll talk to dr. vin gupta about the danger of breakthrough cases for those whose health is already compromised. "morning joe" is back in a moment. so, should all our it move to the cloud? the cloud would give us more flexibility, but we lose control. ♪ ♪ ♪ should i stay or should i go? ♪ and we need insights across our data silos, but how? ♪ if i go there will be trouble ♪ ♪ ♪ wait, we can stay and go. hpe greenlake is the platform that brings the cloud to us. ♪ should i stay or should i go now? ♪ ♪ ♪ your eyes. beautiful on the outside, but if you have diabetes, there can be some not-so-pretty stuff going on, on the inside. it's true, if you have diabetes, you know high blood sugar is the root of the problem. but that excess sugar can cause the blood vessels to be seriously damaged. and when that happens, this could happen, vision loss or even blindness. that's right, diabetic retinopathy is a leading cause of blindness for adults in the u.s. but even though you can't see it, there is something you can do about it. remember this: now is the time to get your eyes checked. eye care is an incredibly important part of your long-term diabetes management. see a path forward with actions and treatments that may help your eyes— and protect against vision loss. just say to yourself, “now eye see.” then—go see an eye care specialist. visit noweyesee.com to get the facts about diabetes, your eyes, and what you can do next—to take control of your sight. brought to you by regeneron. i want to bring in dr. vin gupta. he's a pulmonologist and nbc news medical contributor. dr. gupta, thank you for being on this morning. we heard that general powell died of covid-related complications, and then we heard he had other diagnoses he was dealing with. can you explain the vaccine and its efficacy, even with a booster, if you have related medical issues, what you think might have happened here? >> of course, mika. good morning, and thank you for having me. what we know about multiple myeloma, which was what general powell was suffering from, is that it's a very immunocompromising medical condition for those who have that diagnosis. it is a cancer of the cells and actually produces antibiotics. so when your body gets the vaccine, these plasma cells in your bloodstream, the cells actually produce the antibiotics, these are actually what become cancerous in the setting of multiple myeloma. we have studies, mika, showing amongst recipients of two doses of moderna or two doses of pfizer, the protection level of an individual with multiple myeloma who receive any two doses of vaccine, their levels up to 20% to 40%, a range, but obviously dramatically lower than most individuals who are otherwise healthy where that protection level against ending up in the hospital is over 90%. that's why there's such a significant immunocompromising effect from this and can and that's why these individuals need a booster. but even the booster isn't perfect. we saw that, of course, with general powell that he ultimately ended up succumbing from covid. >> he had not received his booster yet, was going to get it and fell ill. can the booster -- what do we know about the booster? can it make a difference for someone who's already impaired and also for the general population, can the booster protect from a breakthrough more than just the first two vaccines? >> so for the general population, mika, if you're otherwise healthy, less than 65 we know a third shot basically increases your protection not only against ending up in the hospital almost to 100% but it really eliminates the chance you'll test positive, basically makes that risk down to almost zero. for general powell, who had a diagnosis of multiple myeloma, if he had gotten the third shot, or someone has a similar immunocompromising condition, the answer is we don't really know. studies show if you have a serious condition like that, that third shot will enhance your protection level to maybe 60% effectiveness keeping you out of the hospital, and previously was 40% with two doses, but, again, it's imperfect. that's why no amount of booster shots will be enough for somebody with a condition like multiple myeloma. >> doctor, good morning. obviously you've gotten it into a little bit here but the news yesterday of general powell's death gave ammunition to conspiracy theories saying, see, see, we're right, these vaccines don't work, it's dangerous. that's all garbage, of course. as someone who treats these patients and understands it better than anyone sitting on this set now, just toss a crack or softball at the theory this provides some evidence to them that the vaccines don't work. >> you know, willie, i would say -- and this is the case with any vaccine, for the individuals who are older or have serious underlying conditions, unfortunately the body is just not as responsive to vaccines, whether it's the covid vaccine or hepatitis vaccine, you name it, and that is what we expect. that is not controversial. that is part of just how the body responds. it's also battling a serious underlying condition. so these conspiracy theorists really are talking out of both sides of their mouth here, that there's no truth to what they're saying. this is expected. we knew general powell with this type of condition -- i didn't know he had this condition -- but had we known he had this condition, he would be at exceptionally high risk, which is why it's really important for all of us to get vaccinated across the country so those that are -- that have immunocompromising conditions are protected because no amount of vaccination is going to fully protect them with the way we're protected, those that are otherwise healthy, less than 65 years of age. >> dr. vin gupta, thank you very much for being on this morning. coming up -- four hours at the capitol. >> throwing punches, hitting officers with holes and pieces of scaffolding they had taken off the inaugural stage. there were hammers. at one point a gun actually fell out of an individual's pocket. of course, i didn't have anywhere to put it, i had a long trench coat. the entire day of fighting, i had that person's gun, personal gun, inside my trench coat the entire day. >> a new documentary chronicles the january 6th insurrection through the eyes of those who were there. we'll talk to the film's producer straight ahead on "morning joe." at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner with access to financial advice, tools and a personalized plan that helps you build a future for those you love. vanguard. become an owner. 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>> uh-huh, yeah, he just didn't want to do anything. >> reporter: but he went? >> he went. >> reporter: and that was the last time you saw him? >> yeah. >> reporter: officer smith never made it to work. he took his own life. was there any expectation that you would never see him again? >> no. >> reporter: erin is now demanding that officer smith's death be classified as a line-of-duty death, which would entitle him to an official burial and allow her to receive survival benefits. d.c. police have not responded to nbc's inquiries about smith. officer smith is just one of four officers who served that day that died by suicide. across the country, 116 officers have died by suicide so far this year. experts say many can be traced directly to their jobs. why do you think it hasn't happened yet? >> i think it's part of a general stigma we have around mental health issues so it's an old, tiny way of looking at suicide. oh, that's a mental health issue, that's different than other are kinds of health issues. >> reporter: an issue with deadly consequences. and you think that his death is directly related to what happened to him on january 6th? >> i do. i believe that if he did not get hit and his demeanor did not change, that he would still be here. >> reporter: in chick ateague, virginia, leigh ann caldwell, nbc news. >> and a new documentary talks about the attacks on the january 6th capitol. here's a look at the new documentary from hbo. >> i have literally bled for this country in combat and they're all yelling you're traitors to your oath, enemy of the people. it was like how [ bleep ] dare you? >> if you were in the way, they would kill us to do it. >> i didn't think i was going to go home that day. >> communications with law and combat, i just watched her and the life drained right out of her eyes. >> 40, 50 officers battling 15,000 people. i have been a police officer for a few decades. >> a mob grabbed him. he was having difficulty breathing. you don't have to take my word for it. watch my body camera footage. >> very frightening situation. >> kill him with his gun. >> pure chaos. >> mass brain injuries. >> i still haven't made sense of it. >> the hbo documentary is called "four hours at the capitol." it premieres tomorrow night on hbo and hbo max. the executive producer of that documentary, dan reed, joins us now. dan, thanks so much for being with us this morning. so much has been said and written about what happened on january 6th. we've had these eyewitness accounts. we've seen some video "the new york times" put together, the extraordinary piece of video that took us inside, but you almost take it a step further here. what will people see from inside the capitol, inside these mobs as they watch your film? >> so this was probably most videoed event in history, every single moment coming from every angle. so you'll see an incredible education of what happened, in a series of video clip that that i think are the most complete record of an event we have seen. and you'll also hear in the words of the people who were there and -- and these include rioters and police officers and legislators exactly what it was like. so this is a really immersive piece. it takes you right into the heart of the action. there are extraordinary moments when you realize that, you know, senate and house of representatives were still sitting when the rioters came into the building which seems extraordinary to us. but i think the risk that accompanied this very, very violent event is still underestimated. i think, you know, that lawmakers could have come to a great deal of arm if the timing had just been a little bit different, and in particular if the very, very staunch defense of that west tunnel had not been as tough as it was. you could have had 15,000 rioters entering the building and that would have produced a very different outcome. >> that's is the point of a concerted effort by many people in this country, republicans led by donald trump, cable news hosts, to downplay what happened that day. we have vice president pence himself say it was one day in january, we need to move on from it, the media was making too much of it. you uniquely have this vantage point of sitting with this film for months and months now. through your assessment and interviews to what you have seen, how close was america to something much worse than what we saw january 6th? >> i think closer than many people think. and this is expressed by one of the congressman that we filmed, if 10,000 protesters had entered the capitol, there would have been such chaos that there would have been -- there might have been a justification for some kind of radical martial law or some kind of radical move by the president or by politicians, and that could have completely -- that could have frozen, obviously, the process of certifying the presidential election. so i think, yes, we were much closer to a major conflagration and it was the actions mainly of the d.c. metropolitan police that stopped this from happening that day. >> so in the film democratic congressman ruben gallegos of arizona talks about how his military training had him preparing to fight for his life during the attack. let's take a look at that. >> i was a infantry man in the united states marine corp. i had to deal with very aggressive crowds when i was in mrk. individuals themselves aren't usually a problem, but when they get collectively together and they create a mob, the mob is the weapon. i was ready to fight. i saw a lot of [ bleep ] back in my days but i was not going to die on the floor of the [ bleep ] house of representatives. like i was not going to get taken out by some insurrectionist [ bleep ]. >> and i've got to tell you, the title "four hours at the capitol," and listening to this man preparing to fight for his own life, the thing that confused me -- and i wonder if you'll address this, i think you do given just how long you take to really show how this played out, is i kept screaming at the television, where are the cops? where's the national guard? where's anybody? where is anybody? a convenience store robbery would have had a far quicker response to what was going on here. it was hard to watch and these people were truly for great amount of time on their own, preparing to fight for their lives. >> yeah, i think it is quite extraordinary that in a place like the u.s. capitol, which one thinks would be the most defended, one of the most defended places on the planet, that rioters were basically able to walk through. the capitol police put up a fight, and many of them fought valiantly, but they simply were not prepared and not there in sufficient numbers to hold back these huge crowds. and so it wasn't until the washington, d.c. police really came on the scene, you know, and lent hands to the capitol police and really i think settled the tide eventually. but there were four hours, which is why we called it four hours, there was four hours everything hung in the balance. there was four hours from really the barricade was breached to really the situation was brought under control by the arrival of police or enforcements. it's one of the mysteries of this event, which is how on earth was the capitol left so poorly defended against what everyone must have known would be a very large crowd, a very angry crowd, many of who just thought they had a legitimate right to protest what they saw as an election that would have been stolen without any evidence, we know, of course, but many of the people believed that and were taking action to try and stop what they saw as a miscarriage of democratic process. >> meanwhile, our lawmakers, our elected leaders, exposed, completely exposed during the counting of the ballots to this marauding like banned of cult members who have one thing in mind, or two things in mind, but one of the things they were talking about was hanging mike pence or trying to run down nancy pelosi. here's more from the documentary, an officer recounting the moment officer michael fanone was dragged on to the ground, into the crowd of rioters. take a look. >> i looked back to my right and mike was gone. he just wasn't there anymore. a mob grabbed him and started pulling him down, and i was just like oh, no, this guy is like dead. >> i remember the crowd grabbed him, and i remember hearing them yell out "i got one." >> i got him, boys. >> hey, dan, this is jonathan lemire. these are horrifying images to watch and is extraordinary bravery by the capitol police, law enforcement, other members there that day saved a lot of lives. but i want to talk to you about what you discovered about the makeup of the crowd, those who were there. because there was law enforcement on the other side of that crowd too, we know that some have been arrested. talk to us about who was there. we know there were some proud boys and oath keepers stirring up some trouble. what's the sense of the other folks who were there that day that stormed the capitol as it descended into violence and even death? >> i think it was striking, you know, when you watched the video footage and it is one of the most recorded event in history, from every angle you can see a small group amongst some of the proud boys, who were really much more decisive and much more aggressive than the rest, and the rest just seems to flow in behind them, not really understanding, barely believing that they set foot inside the capitol building. so i think it's impressive, and we've seen this throughout history that a tiny, determined group bent on political violence can have -- can really determine the outcome of those historical events. and i think we were very close to something really very, very disruptive, much more disruptive than, in fact, was the case. as i think senator schumer said, the most the crowd -- the mob actually achieved the attack by a few hours. and i think the spearheading of attack by a small group of men who were equipped and intent on political violence. >> the new hbo documentary "four hours at the capitol" debuts tomorrow on hbo and hbo max. dan reed, thank you very much for doing this and being on the show this morning. up next -- the latest to vaccinate americans against covid-19 and showdown over mandates in places like chicago where thousands of police officers face a deadline that is now just days away. keep it right here on "morning joe." ... i want a bucket of chicken... i want... ♪♪ it's the easiest because it's the cheesiest. kraft. for the win win. 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(sfx: continued vehicle calamity.) just think, he'll be driving for real soon. every new chevy equinox comes standard with chevy safety assist, including automatic emergency braking. find new peace of mind. find new roads. chevrolet. vo: the damage it's causing is undeniable... climate change. and with the build back better act, congress can tackle it head on. with tax credits for clean energy companies that create millions of new jobs... ...and ramp up new technology and clean energy manufacturing. it means families pay less for utilities... ...and america becomes the global leader in clean energy it's time to build back better. and that means taking on climate change. with clean energy jobs congress: let's get this done ♪♪ hi mr. charles. we made you dinner. aww, thank you. ♪♪ jury selection is under way in georgia for the trial of the men accused of killing ahmaud arbery. attorneys are now working to seat 12 impartial jurors and four alternates from a pool of 1,000. nbc news correspondent catie beck has more. >> reporter: many have waited to see this day in court. the start of the ahmaud arbery trial. the courthouse just a short distance from where 25-year-old arbery was shot and killed. his family says while jogging in a residential neighborhood. >> thankful that they're in the stage to pick a jury. hopefully putting them behind bars. >> reporter: jury selection could take two weeks, summoning 1,000 people in the small rural community. casting a wide net to ensure the case that sparked national outrage can seat 12 impartial jurors and four alternates. three men are charged with arbery's murder. father and son, greg and travis mcmichael who armed themselves and pursued arbery, and william roddy bryan who recorded cell phone video of the incident. mcmichaels thought arbery was a burglar. bryan argued he was just a witness. his defense attorney telling nbc news, roddy bryan looks forward to the trial of his case and returning home afterwards to his family. attorney ben crump feels optimistic about the case. >> the video is the most important witness in the case. >> reporter: a story returning to the national spotlight as a final chapter begins. >> nbc's catie beck reporting for us there. we turn now to the latest on the fight against covid-19. the fda is expected to allow americans to mix and match covid booster doses as the showdown over vaccine mandates intensifies. nbc's meagan fitzgerald reports for us from chicago, where thousands of police officers still have not declared their covid vaccine status, despite a looming deadline on friday. >> reporter: this morning, one step closer to a boost of immunity. the fda is reportedly expected to approve mixing and matching covid vaccines. it comes after researchers found antibody levels for johnson & johnson recipients increased 76 times 15 days after receiing a moderna shot. approval may come as soon as wednesday alongside the expected authorization of moderna and j&j's booster shots. that's according to reports from the "new york times" and "washington post," but not confirmed by nbc news. the government would not recommend one shot over another, and it might note that using the same vaccine as a booster when possible is preferable, according to the "new york times," citing people familiar with the agency's planning. it comes after months of confusion after the biden administration publicly backed booster shots before they were approved, followed by uncertainty over whether mixing and matching boosters, particularly for those vaccinated with johnson & johnson, is advisable. at the battle over those who haven't gotten the vaccine heating up, and washington state requiring employees to get the jab or lose their job. washington state university announcing overnight it has led go of football team coach as well as four of his assistants for not complying with the mandate. police unions pushing back, including in chicago where the mayor's vaccine mandate has been in effect for three days. only about 65% of the police force is vaccinated. that means thousands of officers' jobs are on the line. >> there's too much government control in that. you're going to tell me what i'm going to put in my body. that's my choice. >> reporter: what do you say to the mayor who says these officers swore an oath to protect the citizens of chicago? >> they're not refusing to protect the citizens of chicago. the city, the department is refusing to let them protect the citizens of chicago. >> nbc's meagan fitzgerald with that report. meanwhile, supply chain issues are now hitting school cafeterias across the country, as millions of students line up for meals. nbc news senior business correspondent stephanie ruhle explains. >> reporter: for school districts across the country, serving lunch is becoming a tall order. >> it has never been like this. so this is really truly a hundred year event. >> we are out of a few items today. >> reporter: supply chain issues and price hikes are impacting everything from vegetables to utensils in lunchrooms, including jefferson county, kentucky. >> it is not just produce. it is not just supplies. it is across all. it's coming multiple times a day, multiple times a week sometimes. >> reporter: according to a recent survey of 1,400 school nutrition directors, nearly all are concerned about supply chain issues. 90% worry about staffing shortages. schools are reliant on government funding to break even on meals. last year alone, they served 330 million lunches per month. lunchrooms face the additional challenge of meeting usda nutritional guidelines to get the vital funding while staying on budget. >> our supply chains in many areas have been disrupted. schools really do have to plan their meals in advance. >> reporter: experts hope there is an end in sight for logistic snags and child hunger. >> schools, once they find creative ways, they will be able to offer more students the meals that they need to increase food security. >> reporter: cooking up solutions for a new school year. stephanie ruhle, nbc news. >> great snapshot on the supply chain crisis by stephanie ruhle, who you'll be seeing in a moment as she hosts the next show. but we're seeing it across the board in stores we go to. everywhere you want to get a service, there is a disruption, willie. >> yeah. and a labor shortage and labor shift, as well. also, jonathan lemire, as we've been talking this morning quite a bit about general powell, you're struck thinking about what a life he lived as the son of immigrants who grew up in the south bronx, rose to become a four-star general. one of the great leaders in this country. also, the moral authority and the moral clarity with which he spoke on issues that seemed to be in such short supply these days. >> certainly, he was haunted by what happened at the run-up to the iraq war, but his legacy is more than that. he is a american success story. a hero who lived his life with real dignity and a role model for so many. mika? >> that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. hi there. i'm stephanie ruhle, live in our nation's capital. it is tuesday, october 19th. here are all the facts you need to know this morning. here in d.c., the pressure is growing among democrats to get president biden's agenda passed. holdouts like senators joe manchin and kyrsten sinema are talking with the presiden and progressive democrats. the big question is, talk, talk, talk, are they closer to getting a deal done? the fight over abortion rights in texas taking another major turn.

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