response, well i can't say what was actually said in the meeting. where upon, in the audience to kind of go, all right do we go to the commercial now? what is left to talk about. but it was very revealing, and very helpful. for me, studying every little wrinkle of this, the single most important fact that we know about the meeting is that it was two hours long. that is not a meeting about nothing. that is not a -- so tell me about life in west virginia. that is not what two hours is in that room. they got into a very serious discussion about it. that's what two hours is about. and it is a hugely important discussion that joe manchin, representing the small group of moderate democrats who haven't gotten on board with this yet. talking to the woman who is leading the largest group of support for this legislation. that is a very important meeting. >> i thought it was also, i'm not going to tell you what's going to happen in the meeting, but does joe manchin want there to be a bill? i think a lot of people who have watched this, watched him just stretch out this inchoate composition without even saying what he wants, or saying contradictory things that he wants. saying things that he supposedly wants that seem enumerate compared to what he wants the price tag to be. i think a lot of people have cynically assuming that he doesn't actually want anything to pass. yes, the republican friendly infrastructure bill, the smaller bill, he would sign on to that. sure. because there's lots of republicans on. it but he does not one another. bill and she did say, when i asked that tonight, she said no, he doesn't want to bill, he wants something to pass, he wants something to pass that is not just the bipartisan infrastructure. bill now what is exactly the bill is going to look like that he wants to pass. i think we still don't know. but to me that itself is. news i've sort administering that he's just dragging this out as long as possible so that it will be easier to kill. >> and the two hours back that up. if he was going to have a meeting with congresswoman jayapal, just to pretend that he is kind of active in this, and his mind is open, if he was just going to pretend, he would enough pretended for two hours. you can do the pretend meeting in a lot less than two hours. this was the real thing. i think the really fascinating wildcard here is at the very end when you asked about a meeting with senator sinema, and to my surprise i didn't know she actually been in contact -- conversation with senator sinema. but senator sinema is way more unpredictable, and not only unpredictable but we do not know what's she is currently thinking, or what she is going to say. >> also, how does the work of senator manchin's big move this week according to some reports, is that he wants all the climates taken out of the bill. and senator some nima said that when she wanted all the climate stuff taken out of the, bill her office responded to, her and said that no this is totally wrong. she started her political career in the green party, she is all for the political stuff, she does not want to cut that down. and for the two senators that are saying, no icing no because there is to climate stop here, and the other one is saying no you have to keep the climate stuff here. then who are new negotiating with. maybe sinema and manchin should talk to each of their, and ask primala jayapal to be with them. >> yes that is the next stage, and it's fascinating to see these meetings, tomorrow the white house, if the president speaking to just one side of the argument. each time, he is just going to talk to the -- he's not going to put them in a room and mix them up. and i can understand that at this stage. but at some point, those are the people who have to come to an agreement. and so what does seem clear though is that all the positive stuff that congresswoman jayapal was saying, it is the important stuff. her belief that there will be a bill. there has to be a bill. and then the very important thing, and this is when you know that there is a professional shape of compromise taking place, when you hear someone say, and we can come back and go for more. after we passed this bill we can come back and go for more. that is a person who knows that they aren't going to get everything that they want. and that they are already formulating their speech. to the people who wanted those things, to how we are going to come back and go for those things, next year, or another piece of legislation. >> right, and the people who are trying to make the bill smaller, they are trying to make stuff cut out of the, build people like senator manchin, he's not saying that i want these things that aren't in the bill. he is just trying to cut stuff out of it. just trying to take step out of it. he does not have that option. he cannot come back and say that we will do more nothing later. >> that's right >> the thing about progressives here is that the actual policy. they want legislation passed. they want government to act on these things. and manchin is saying no don't do any of these things. he is not asking for things that he doesn't want. he is just trying to make sure that the country doesn't get stuff fixed. and i think senator manchin believes that he can get everything that he wants, do and everybody has to come to his way of thinking, because he does not have any incentive to move at all. ultimately, that will come to the test, it's just a question of how long everybody holds up. >> and we will see. rachel i was fascinating by your coverage of colin powell. we are going to do more of it here. and the impact on barack obama's presidential campaign. valerie, and you are going to join us to talk about exactly that because it was a hugely important endorsement. and i think he made that point very clearly. >> i would love to hear their take on. it was such a seismic moment within the campaign, it must have been transformative. >> we will get to. it thank you rachel >> all right, thank you lawrence. >> well colin powell was 40 -- when you watch the united states of america what march off to work with the segregated army. when in world war ii made that segregated army that colin powell would eventually grow up to command? the most powerful military force in the history of the world. colin powell was ten years old when he saw a black man playing major league baseball for the first time. that happened with colin paul's hometown in new york city, when jackie robinson was allowed to join the brooklyn dodgers in 1947. colin powell went to new york city's public school for elementary school, he graduated from to the college of the arts where he joined the army rotc, and began his army career immediately after college in 1958. he did this first tour of duty in vietnam, in 1962, in 1963 when most americans did not know that there was a place called vietnam. and that there was an american military presence in vietnam. he went back to vietnam in 1968 at the peak of the comeback, and at the peak of the death count in vietnam. when the american involvement in vietnam, in 1968, was being protested somewhere in this country virtually every day of that year. colin powell's return to vietnam came after the reverent dr. martin luther king, had publicly turned against the war saying, quote, we are taking the black young men who had been crippled by our society and sending them 1000 miles away to guarantee liberties in southeast asia which they had not found in southwest georgia and east harlem. >> because colin paul was born 84 years ago, he saw every first before he became a first himself. he saw the first black major league baseball player. he saw the first black supreme court justice. he saw the first black american investigator to the united nations. the first black senator since reconstruction. the first black president. the first black attorney general. the first black vice president. and in the middle of all those first, colin powell became the first black chairman of the joint chief of staff. the first black national security adviser. the first black secretary of state. in 1995 polls indicated that colin powell could have become the first black president of the a cnn poll showed united states. him 15 points ahead of president clinton. 54 to 39. and bill clinton won his reelection a year later, in 1996, thanks more than anything else, to the fact that colin powell decided not to run. >> i had to look deep into my own soul, standing aside from the expectations and enthusiasm of others. ice i believe i have a bond of trust with the american people. i'd offer myself as a candidate for president requires a commitment and passion to run the race and succeed in the quest. the kind of passion and the kind of commitment that i felt every day of my 35 years as a soldier. a passion and commitment that despite my every effort, i do not yet have for political life. because such a life requires calling that, i do not get here. and for me to pretend otherwise would not be other honest to myself, would not be honest to the american people. and i would break that bond of trust. and therefore, i cannot go forward. i will not be a candidate for president, or for any other elective office in 1996. >> having seen all of the first, and having been a first himself more than once, colin powell did what he could to help barack obama become the most important first. what >> general powell, i'd ask you -- senator mccain you've met twice at least with barack obama, are you prepared to make a public declaration of which of these two candidates that you're prepared to support? >> yes, but let me lead with it this way. i know both of these individuals very well. i've known john for 25 years as your setup said, and i've gotten mitt to know mr. obama quite well over the past two years. both of them are distinguished americans, who are patriotic, who are dedicated to the welfare of our country. either one of them, i think would be a good president. when i look at all of this, and i think back to my army career, we've got two individuals, either one of them could be a good president. but which is the president that we need now? which is the individual that serves the needs of the nation for the next period of time? and i come to the conclusion, that because of his a ability to inspire, because of the inclusive nature of his campaign, because he is reaching out all across america, because of who we is and his rhetorical abilities, we have to take that into account, as well as his substance. he has both style and substance. he has met the standard of being a successful president. being an exceptional president. i think he is a transformational figure, he is a new generation, coming into the world stage. on to the american stage. and for that reason all be very voting for senator barack obama. >> colin powell voted for the first black president twice. and he cast his last presidential vote for joe biden, and the first black vice president kamala harris. i -- interviewed colin powell for many of his books over the past 32 years. and he interviewed colin powell in july, knowing it would probably be their last interview. because of colin powell's health. colin powell said, to bob woodward then, i've got multiple myeloma cancer, and i've got parkinson's disease. but otherwise i'm fine. i haven't lost a day of life fighting these two diseases. i'm in good shape. in the end, it was a combination of those two diseases along with covid-19 that ended colin powell's life today. he told bob woodward in july, how he was getting to all of his medical appointments, with walter reid, and what turned out to be the last year of his life. quote, i drive up in my corvette, get out of the corvette, and go into the hospital. colin powell was a longtime corvette driver. his corvette was the very first thing that came up in the one private conversation that i had with him, in new york city. after he had just driven the corvette up from washington d.c., 225 miles or so. ten years ago, at the age of 74. in that final interview with bob woodward, colin powell showed his charities thoughts on afghanistan, a few weeks before the final american evacuation from afghanistan. colin powell said, i thought we had to get out of there eventually. we can't beat these guys, well, let's get it over with. afghanistan, you're never gonna win. afghans are going to win. that's why i don't have any problem with us getting out of their. we can't go from 100,000 u.s. troops down to a few hundred and think that will prevail. bob woodward's final question to colin powell was quote, who is the greatest man, woman or person you have ever known? not a leader, not necessarily, but the inner person. you know, the moral compass, the sense of propriety, the sense of the truth matters. who is that in all of your life? who? some >> it's alma powell, he said immediately. she was with me the whole time. we've been married 58 years. and she put up with a lot. she took care of the kids when i was, you know, running around. and she was always there for me and she tell me, that's not a good idea. she was usually right. colin powell was 84 years old. after this break, we will be joined by valerie jarred, and to david plouffe. the, an to david plouffe th ♪ ♪ just two pills for all day pain relief. aleve it, and see what's possible. ♪♪ things you start when you're 45. coaching. new workouts. and screening for colon cancer. yep. the american cancer society recommends screening starting at age 45, instead of 50, since colon cancer is increasing in younger adults. i'm cologuard®. i'm convenient and find 92% of colon cancers... ...even in early stages. i'm for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider if cologuard is right for you. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need 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hearts, we are the same america that brought our parents through our shores. an america that inspires freedom around the world. that is the america, joe biden would lead as our next president. >> that was colin paul at the democratic convention, last year, joining us now valerie jarrett, former senior adviser for president obama. -- he is an msnbc political and no list. and valerie and so striking to see colin powell last year. we now know that he was battling parkinson's and cancer. but he was looking as healthy as he ever did. at that convention last year. i want to take you back to 2008 campaign. and when you and barack obama discovered that colin powell was going to invoke indoors senator obama for president. when did you find that out? when did president obama find that out? what did it mean to him when he found that a? >> i will tell you lawrence, first of all good evening it's an honor to be here this evening. it's a tough day but i appreciate the tribute that you and so many others have done to a person that i consider great american. it was not until i heard the first come out of his mouth, that i was positive about the way that he would lead. we thought he was leaning in the direction of barack obama, but colin powell keeps his counsel pretty close. and i remember, literally holding my breath the entire time that he was speaking, and what a relief it was. it was not as if i was just voting for, him but the reason why is he thought that barack obama was a leader who would be best for our country in that moment in time. it was very eloquent, he spoke from the heart, and also from the mind, and the experience that he had in public service over so many decades. it was seismic. we were so excited. as they held a tribute at that moment in the campaign. and really, for someone of his stature, his gravitas, the senior statesman in the republican party to be willing to support the candidate of the other party and give him reasons. what it was a good moment for the campaign. and for the country. >> so valerie let me stay with us for a second, so you learned at the same time we did, when he told did on meet the press, he knew at the same moment, no prior, no tip off from paul to -- >> they were shaking his head. he had his counsel very close. and i think as though he did not want to be influenced. he did not want to be lobbied. he wanted to speak his truth without giving any editing or scraping by any of us, and i think it made it much more authentic and powerful that we. but i would say that i was -- as a wind up god. >> so david, it's a big moment in the campaign. you know that he is going to make the announcement, it's going to have been your about two weeks out. you need everything to go perfectly at this point in the campaign. this is someone who is known john mccain for 25 years. he said something that i don't think we will hear again for a very long time before he makes his endorsement, he says that both of them are distinguished americans, who are patriotic, or dedicated to the welfare of our country. he's saying that before he makes the public endorsement of one. what was it like for you when you heard those magic words from colin powell? and what did it then mean to your campaign calculations? >> well, lawrence, it was a pretty good sunday morning. justin underscore of ours, we did not know what he was going to do, barack obama had talked to two or three times if i recall. but he went on meet the press, and we on the rest of america we're going to learn what his decision was. -- the timing was critical. and maybe he waited because he knew. that it was after the third debate, 16 days out. here the presidential campaign you want to close very very strongly. and we paid a lot of attention to that in both of our campaigns is how do we keep momentum going. all the way through the tape. and our research shows that that race broke for asleep. people forget on the eve, of early september, that we were considered the underdog. and even in mid october, to late october, there were voters all throughout the country in the state, when you would ask them if there was anybody that might persuade. too many people said, colin powell. because some of the voters who are yet to decide, to pull the letter for barack obama, did have concerns, he was a young senator, annie did not have the foreign policy experience. and then he showed with colin powell, and back then he was a republican, he was a chairman of the joint chief of staff, for george w. bush. he was a political earthquake. when he'd endorsed barack obama. and to valerie's point it was not just the endorsement. it's what he said. for me, i know it was striking for him to say either of these men's would be good president. it was remarkable and 13 short years how foreign that sounds. but when you talk about barack obama's fate, and said that if someone asked do if he was a muslim, he said no is a christian, but the more important question is, why should it matter? he's a little seven year old boy or girls's muscle should know that it's okay for them to dream of being president. so was the power of why he endorsed barack obama. and so for me, it there wasn't a better way to enter the last 16 days of the presidential campaign than having the words in support of colin powell. >> valerie, did you have a relationship with colin powell? and when you're going into service in the white house he strikes me as someone with so much experience that you might want to turn to. by the way, experience with both wife council, and on wise council. and being part of both. >> this is what i would say about colin powell. there isn't a single time that we've reached out to him, and i did a number of times, and ask him for his counsel, his advice, his wisdom. based on this extraordinary track record of public service, where he didn't take the call and respond. and he put country over politics. and i think to the point of both david and i are, making i think the reason why his endorsement was so thoughtful, was because it was really about where the direction he thought the country should go. and what he saw the seeds of what he saw, in the party, and how deeply and profoundly he struggled by the divisiveness of the polarization, in the same interview. he talked about the reason why barack obama's fate should not be an issue in the context of a muslim american who at the age of 14 when 9/11 happened, felt this calling and paid the ultimate sacrifice for our country. his point was that every person has that -- is as much as american as anyone else, is so why does my party, he specifically said, why do other members of my party feeding and festering this horrendous underbelly of hatred in our country. it was a really present comment that he was making about the direction he saw this party going. and it turned out to be, unfortunately quite right in type of the party. but i think part of his legacy would be that he is that voice of reason, that voice of saying that you love our country, you'd probably be better than just a party politics. so you have to focus on how you bring each other together. and that those who follow in his footsteps would reinforce that and that would be part of his legacy as well. so many young people look up to him as a leader. it is very hard to be what you can't see. and he was invisible, strong, passionate, public servant that also happen to be african american. and to see a black man in that role, i think holds well for the future of our country. just as having a black man as president with all of the qualities of barack obama, also is a way of saying that this is the direction of our country is going. in -- sliding backwards from time to time. but in this and colin powell will appeal to arbiter agents, and ultimately i hope that swings out. >> and david, colin powell, and barack obama had something in common as kids growing up and as they were entering the careers. there was no role model for a black man doing what they were setting up to do. and barack obama's case becoming president in united states, in collin paul's case, to advance to the highest levels of the military. that had not happened certainly, all the way up to joint chiefs of staff. just his military accomplishments had never happened for a black man before. and so they both stepped off into pioneer there is no territory. question, i mean i think that both so, very eloquently throughout their lives and careers, talked about the shoulders that they stood on. the people that made it possible in prior generations. but yeah, he was the first national security adviser black. he was the first black chairman of the joint chief of staff. he was the most popular person in america for many many years. in probably when it -- back in 2008. so yeah, there are now, in this country, by tens of millions of boys and girls, now young men and women, and all around the world who think were responsible. and that's what's spoke, so uniquely about america. you know the truth is, i remember when barack obama was elected president, and you saw some of the interviews of people with a give about why they were excited about his election. and there was a lot of reason. but a lot of them would say, that simply couldn't happen in our country. and those were democracies. and think same thing with colin powell -- they didn't have the gilded elevator. and so the example -- is going to live through decades and generations. and we're going to see a leadership because of these example that both of these president set. >> valid each arid, and david plouffe thank you very much for joining us tonight, i appreciated. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. -- join us next. -- join us next join us next , a cold is not just a cold. unlike other cold medicines, coricidin provides powerful cold relief without raising your blood pressure be there for life's best moments with coricidin. now in sugar free liquid. wealth is 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president? i think it might have been ready when i was thinking about running, powell told obama. it's definitely more ready now. joining us now are john halloween, -- the circus. and host of the hell and high-water podcast -- he is a coauthor of game change, obama in the clinton's, mccain and palin, the race of a lifetime. and jonathan walter is with us -- both are in msnbc political analysts. john heilemann, the impact of the colin powell endorsement in that presidential campaign felt so important at the time. but it came at the end of a string of fascinating endorsements, in which people like ted kennedy in a similar dynamic to the polo endorsement were turning in effect against people they've been with for a longer period of time, been alive with for a longer period of time. -- like intended katie's case, it with hillary clinton, turning against her -- you saw colin powell turn against his 25-year-old friend, john mccain, to endorse barack obama. the >> right, and i think lawrence, importantly because they thought in both cases that they were moving towards a brand of politics, and obama, that was more optimistic more idealistic, if not totally pure. something more noble. when ted kennedy turned against the clinton, it was specifically because of what he's seen both clinton do in that race, do it nevada, do in south carolina, ted kennedy was disgusted by bill clinton's race baiting in the race. and what pushed him in the arms of obama was a rejection of that kind of politics. similarly with colin powell, powell had been watching for two years, obama and mccain had both been lobbying powell for the endorsement. and powell intended to stay neutral, and then he watched mccain choose palin. start using bill errors as a weapon against obama, suggesting that he was power out of terrorists, as powell put it. they -- say -- at the end of the campaign which were foreshadowing of everything we saw with trump. and that was really what turned powell in the end away from mccain, as much as turned away -- gave the endorsement to obama and as much as it uplifted obama it, shattered mccain. who really kind of had a dark moment at the end of campaign and said, if cowl colin powell's against me one if i become? and you saw mccain in the last two weeks of that campaign, sort of pull back from the edge of where he taken his campaign and could see kind of, powell was like sandra telling mccain whether the republican party and had it. it's an important moment, it tells us a lot about where our politics would end up over the last 12:13 years. >> there's a lot of reporting in bob ordered series of books about the iraqi war, and the bush and iraq war's. about colin powell's famous moment at the united nations, half of the united nations, presenting the case, the american case on what they claimed they had found. what the intelligence sources claim they found in iraq, about weapons of mass destruction. and woodward reporting and others, you see that that was a rushed presentation, and that colin powell was pushing back a lot before on what they were giving him, before he went to the united nations. but eventually he did go there, and he did make that presentation. let's just listen to the key sentence of that presentation. >> the facts and iraq's behavior show that saddam hussein had his regime, are concealing their efforts to produce more weapons of mass destruction. >> and jonathan walters, there was no weapons of mass destruction's found of course. they weren't doing that. isis for us, how colin powell handled that reality? after that was exposed, that no, that presentation at the united nations was not accurate. he then, eventually overtime, dealt with it. >> yeah, i mean, you have to acknowledge that he was naive going into the bush administration. i actually spoke to him two weeks before he was sworn in as secretary of state. and i raised richard pearl and these other neocons, who had been in the reagan ministration, and you know, bush won. and we're expected to have some real influence. in the bush administration. and he was very dismissive of them and said, you know, colin powell was not only enormously charming, and also capable of putting anyone he was with at ease, but he had enormous self confidence. at that point, he just coughed at these neocons, and said i'll be able to handle them. nobody's going to be able to jam me in this administration. he was telling me privately at the time. and then what happened? he got jammed by the cia. he got jammed by vice president cheney. donald rubs felt, a black belt and bureaucratic infighting, every time powell would leave the country on diplomatic issue, they would screw him back in washington. and then comes this un appearance, where this cia, and it's really a mind-blowing story, they took intelligence from an iraqi defector, code name curveball, who they never spoke to. they were relied on german intelligence to vent this guy, who turned out to be a fraud. and then, they put all of what curveball told them into powell's presentation to the un. so he felt totally betrayed, and within a couple of years he went public about what had happened to him. and it was clearly the little moment of his entire career, and something that he regretted for the rest of his life. >> and, john heilemann, they's final -- with turns out to be his final couple of years, there he was at the democratic convention -looking completely healthy and without the slightest hint of what he was struggling with, cancer, and parkinson's. we >> yeah, i mean what john has said is right, he was enormously composed and i think in a lot of ways that regal bearing that he had, kind of, he was not a man who would've shown weakness. if he had been in a state where he couldn't look the way he did, he would've not and got in front of cameras. but again, i come back to what powell saw about the way politics were evolving. i think it was he thought it was important to be taking the stand he took. because powell never entered electoral -- the electoral fray, because he declined back in 1985, to run against bill clinton. he had this kind of stature that ordinary politicians do not. and he used that stature to political ads, he was not someone -- no one would ever say colin powell was part of the never trump of men. colin powell was part of something else, he was part of this movement, as a voice for dignity. and that was the ultimate kind of review can some ways, to trump, and to what the republican party has become. colin powell is a lifelong republican, he's like what republicans are made to be. and yet here he was, by the end, not just laboring over whether to back john mccain or barack obama but fully on board with a traditional democrat like joe biden. and seeing no place for himself in the republican party as it stands today. in some ways, he's the most powerful never trump voice of all. for the fact that he wasn't so clearly associated with that movement, just associated with the notion of honor and decency that he stood for in the political sphere, even as a non-combatant, so to speak. >> john heilemann, and jonathan -- thank you very much for joining us our discussion tonight. really appreciated. >> thank you. >> coming up, defended trump went under oath today, in a civil lawsuit. we'll be joined by ted boudreaux's, a lawyer who will probably get his own chance to question donald trump under oath. that's next. oath that's next. ♪ i had a dream that someday ♪ ♪ i would just fly, fly away ♪ i'm not getting through the pandemic just to end up with the flu. i asked for fluzone high-dose quadrivalent. it's the #1-used flu vaccine for people 65 and older. fluzone high-dose quadrivalent is the only vaccine approved by the fda for superior flu protection in adults 65+. i'm not letting my guard down. fluzone high-dose quadrivalent isn't for people who've had a severe allergic reaction to any flu vaccine or vaccine component, including eggs or egg 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for botox®. ask your doctor about botox® today. and today's up a soda of defendant trump, this happened. >> no one is above the law, donald dot john trump sat in a chair, put his right hand up, and he took an oath, he took an oath to tell the truth. and nothing but the truth. and he answered questions for several hours with his counsel present. and that is part of what we call due process in this country. and, maybe some of us forgot that that applies to everybody. in the course of the past several years. but, i think today serves as a demonstration that our institutions are intact, and the rule of law is supreme above all else in this country. >> that is benjamin victor, he is the attorney who was able to be the first one to question donald trump under oath. the first one since donald trump became president, anyway. donald trump was forced by subpoena to give an under oath deposition in a lawsuit brought by protesters, who say they were attacked by trump tower security guards, in 2015. no details have been released about trump's underwrote testimony today. donald trump will be forced to give under oath testimony and other civil cases, including the cases brought by eugene carroll, and the case by brought by donald trump's niece, mary trump. joining us now, one of the lawyer who will get to trump questioned donald trump, mary trump's attorney, ted boutrous, take you very much for joining us tonight, we really appreciated. you are a we know you're probably feeling not so great tonight, that you didn't get to go first. but, apparently there is going to be a long line of you now. lining up for schedule depositions with donald trump. >> it feels like a cat down is breaking, lawrence. i think president trump is no longer president trump, even though he keeps pretending like he is. and he's going to have to testify in these cases and so i think it's going to be healthy. the plaintiffs earlier in that clip -- >> let's listen to more of what benjamin viktor said about the way, the style anyway, of the trump testimony. >> the president was exactly as you would expect him to be, and he answered questions the way that you would expect mr. trump to answer questions. and, conducted himself in a manner in the way that you would expect mr. trump to -- . >> i imagine you are hanging on every word that he was describing their, how do you interpret that? and how do you interpret that for your own tactics in how you have to question donald trump? >> well, it's very intriguing and provocative to me. we all know that while donald trump was in office he was a purveyor of falsehoods and the big lie that led to the insurrection. so, for the lawyer who just opposed him to say he testified as you would expect him to, it leaves us all to draw our inferences from that. it sounds like he was suggesting that president trump was just performing true to form, which would not be good for donald trump. and, in our cases, i represented mary trump, in the case is that donald trump brought against her for being sourced with, for the new york times pulitzer prize -- fraudulent schemes, business schemes of donald trump and his siblings. and mary trump has a lawsuit against donald trump, for that trauma -- and, donald trump is going to have to be deposed in those cases, and i don't think it's going to be a good experience for him. >> now, he -- again, he's the most litigious person who's ever held the presidency, by far. and he filed a new lawsuit today. this is a lawsuit where he's trying to block the turning over of the documents from his administration, that the -- president biden has said do not deserve executive privilege and shouldn't be said to the january six committee. in this lawsuit, it seems possible that he could also open himself up to a deposition in that lawsuit. >> it's another, just bust baseless lawsuit that he filed. he does not have standing, president biden possesses executive privilege, he can wave it. and so by injecting himself into more litigation, donald trump is i think, going to cause more problems for himself. he's used to controlling the justice department and be able to play games, but i don't think that's going to happen. the courts are going to lose patience with him. and, so, i think that that's -- he's going to have to see the preliminary injunction to stop the archivist from producing the documents -- and he would have to show the likelihood of success. he's not going to shuttle a likelihood of success, there's no support for his position. i'll here in california, where i am right now, we call that a vaccination -- that's really what's happening here, stall tactics, meant to just come up the works and stop the american people from knowing the truth about what had happened during donald trump's presidency, and before that. and it's really a front to the first amendment, what he's trying to do to mary trump, and sue her for her book. and, this archivist, he's trying to swell the federal government from finding out what happened on january 6th and leading up to it, one of the worst moments in american history. it's really, it's not going to go anywhere. he'll be able to maintain it for a while, but he's going to lose. >> one of the big dangers for donald trump under oath obviously, is perjury. since, he lies so nonstop. what are the risks for civil perjury in testimony like this? >> well, there are significant risks. and again, particularly where you have a high ranking government official, courts are not going to give mcgahn monetary sanctions -- we had -- civil case. but here, where president trump has shown himself willing to say that we all know or false. i mean, it's not like, it's ambiguous. and in perjury cases it has to be very clear that the will -- but donald trump has made a career out of that. including while he was president. so, it's dangerous, it's treacherous. so it'll be interesting to see what happens. >> ted neutrons, we have a space reserved for you the day you questioned donald trump under oath. in that deposition. please come back. thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> i'll be there. >> thank you very much. >> we'll be right back, with tonight's last word. right back, with tonight's last word. tonight's last word. limu, you're an animal! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ when our daughter and her kids moved in with us... our bargain detergent couldn't keep up. turns out it's mostly water. so, we switched back to tide. one wash, stains are gone. [daughter] slurping don't pay for water. pay for clean. it's got to be tide. with relapsing forms of ms... there's a lot to deal with. not just unpredictable relapses. all these other things too. it can all add up. kesimpta is a once-monthly at-home injection... that may help you put these rms challenges in their place. kesimpta was proven superior at reducing the rate of relapses, active lesions, and slowing disability progression vs aubagio. don't take kesimpta if you have hepatitis b, and tell your doctor if you have had it, as it could come back. kesimpta can cause serious side effects, including infections. while no cases of pml were reported in rms clinical trials, it could happen. tell your doctor if you had or plan to have vaccines, or if you are or plan to become pregnant. kesimpta may cause a decrease in some types of antibodies. the most common side effects are upper respiratory tract infection, headache, and injection reactions. ready for an at-home treatment with dramatic results? it's time to ask your doctor about kesimpta. when you really need to sleep you reach for the really good stuff.h dramatic results? new zzzquil ultra helps you sleep better and longer when you need it most. it's non habit forming and powered by the makers of nyquil. last year at the democratic new zzzquil ultra. when you really really need to sleep. convention when he was silently struggling with cancer and parkinson's disease, colin powell told the short version of his life story. beginning with the arrival of his parents in this country. one >> hundred years ago, a young immigrant left a dirt form in jamaica. and set up for america. three years later, a ship pulled into new york harbor, and a young jamaican woman gazed up at the statue of liberty of the first time. they became my parents. and they inspired me to finish college and join the army. this began the journey of services that would take me from basic training. to combat in vietnam. up the ranks to service chairman of the joint chiefs, staff and secretary of state. >> colin powell, who lived a life like no other gets tonight's last word. the 11th hour with brian williams, starts now. >> good evening once again day 272 of the biden administration, and this evening flags at the white house, lives throughout washington and the u.s. facility throughout the country and around the world are at half staff in honor of colin paul who died this morning, general paul was 84 years old, he died of covid complications while battling both parkinson's and multiple myeloma. we will have more and much more of its life and legacy just ahead. tonight is also the eve of the first major legal showdown for the special house committee, investigating the january 6th riot and insurrection. and a little over 20 hours, the committee is scheduled to formally vote on whether to adopt a report recommending criminal contempt charges

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