act, last time we reduced the national debt in the united states. >> we lead the country out of lockdown, we kept our state free and open and i can tell use this. as your president, i will never let the deep state bureaucrats lock you down. >> you have ron desantis, tim scott, mike pence, they all voted to raise the debt. donald trump added $8 trillion to the debt. >> i'm the only person on stage who isn't bought and paid for so i can say this. the climate change agenda is a hoax. >> i've had enough already tonight of a guy who sounds like chat gpt stand up here. paul: joining the panel this week wall street journal columnist dan heninger, kim straw soul, and senior fellow jason riley. who in your estimation stood out in a good way during the debate? jason: a number of them -- dan: we certainly know who they are but a lot of people palling in single digits. this was an opportunity for them to make a first impression on the public. i think vivek ramaswamy dominated a lot of the discussion and people got to see a little bit about what he is doing there, nikki haley, good job. mike pence made a good showing. the number of people who stood out, it was well handled by the moderators. it was a tough situation with that many on stage but they did a good job. paul: anybody stand out from your point of view? dan: what stood out, the way i would put it, the republican candidates stood out. we went into this thing saying how will anyone compete with trump? 8 people who do that, some of them well-known, governor bergen not as well-known, the democrats were suggesting the use were all himaga republicans, extreme right wing, off the charts republicans. instead we saw 8 serious people accessing points of view in substantive policy, go across as alternatives if there's going to be an alternative to donald trump which is something democrats don't have. they don't have an alternative to joe biden. in terms of standing up, all of them had a moment to do that. vivek ramaswamy drew a lot of attention, others attacked him. they did as a foil to make their own points. nikki haley came across, the one person trying to break through. she was very articulate on many subjects and going point by point in a way that sums up her position. she's very good at what she's doing. the first debate they did well and now they move forward. paul: you haven't mentioned ron desantis. one of his tasks was to be able to stop the perception that he is in freefall. he has been second to trump for most of this campaign. how do you think he did? allysia: a mixed night for ron desantis. he benefited that vivek ramaswamy peaked in the polls, moving up in the polls, he became the center of focus, he became the punching bag on stage more than ron desantis. that meant he wasn't talking as much as he wanted to. he wasn't dominating the debate. when he came out he had a good explanation for leadership in florida. he probably helped to right the ship that way, do the message he wanted to put across to his audience. he looked a bit hesitant on key controversial issues of the day. if you cut off funding for ukraine, how to see feel about our national abortion ban. and and and was willing to take position on these hot button issues. >> foreign policy exchange, >> a giveaway to put in, it will not be long before he roles across the nato border. >> i don't want, to protect our own borders, protect the homeland. >> this guys a murderer and you are choosing a murderer over an american country. you have no american policy experience and it shows. paul: who got the better of that exchange? jason: nikki haley and mike pence got the better of that exchange. what was interesting, we didn't see amaga republicans on stage. haley was very traditional hawkish military views, foreign policy views, and their experience shows and vivek ramaswamy's inexperience shows, the idea he thinks he can appease a dictator like putin, he should go back and read about the munich agreement in 1938 and see how that works out for czechoslovakia. we have this example here, russia is trying to rebuild the empire and if you stand in putin's way he will kill you. that's the message. that is what nikki haley was trying to get across. what mike pence and haley were saying, popular with people in the audience. there's a segment of the republican party who saw some republican candidates who said this is the right thing to do and we will stand by it notwithstanding. paul: we will talk about more in the next block. the republican front-runner may have skipped wednesday night's debate but donald trump was a prime topic of conversation as candidates weighed in on the former president's legal woes and fitness for office ahead of his arrest in georgia. (fan #1) there ya go! that's what i'm talkin' about! (josh allen) is this your plan to watch the game today? (hero fan) uh, yea. i have to watch my neighbors' nfl sunday ticket. (josh allen) it's not your best plan. but you know what is? myplan from verizon. switch now and they'll give you nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv, on them. (hero fan) this plan is amazing! (josh allen) another amazing plan, backing away from here very slowly. (fan #1) that was josh allen. (fan #2) mmhm. (vo) football season is here. get nfl sunday ticket from youtubetv on us. a $449 value. plus, get a free samsung galaxy z flip5. only on verizon. >> whether or not you believe the criminal charges are right or wrong, the conduct is beneath the office of the president of the united states. >> let's speak the truth. donald trump, i believe, was the best president of the 20 first century. >> when it comes to whether donald trump should serve or not, i trust the american people. let them vote, let them decide. what they will tell you is it is time for a new generational conservative leader. paul: donald trump skipped the debate but he was a topic of conversation. they will support the former president if he is the eventual nominee. even if he is convicted in a court of law. trump surrendered in polk county, georgia and was booked on more than a dozen charges stemming from his efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. he has faced, charges. we are back with our panel. the conventional wisdom in the press seems to be donald trump won the debate, this was the washington press corps saying this. echoing the trump campaign's spin. >> the press and the democrats want donald trump to be the nominee. there' s so much volatility and tumult around trump, here we are in august 2023, the election in 24. if this sort of chaos continues, they think anybody can beat trump and the assumption is it will be president biden. i am not sure that is true. we don't know what is going to happen a year from now either with trump and his legal problems or president biden, whether he will be capable of being the nominee at that point. what we learned watching this debate, without trump on the stage, republicans do have a plan b, c, d and e. those were real presidential candidates whereas the democrats with president biden have no plan b whatsoever, so the default is we've got to get trump as the nominee because he's the only one they think president biden can beat and it remains to be seen whether we will get to that point. paul: what do you think of how they handled the trump indictment's question. nikki haley dared to take out 2 or republican audience donald trump is the most unpopular politician in america which if you look at the polls, that's close to true. >> pretty savvy. the alternative to that is chris christie, not only his is behavior on presidential, many in the audience agree with that, he condemns -- these indictments are valid, that crosses a redline for a lot of primary goers. it's time for new generational leader, a desire for voters for younger person but also talking electability. they want to win the next election. they want to see president biden gone. at paul: vivek ramaswamy praised trump and is running against him. how is he going good to win if he emerges from the pack, and beat trump once he says trump is so terrific? >> don't know how you make that pivot, sounds like he runs for president of the trump fan club. i do think what we saw clearly is the group trump still has on this race, on these other nominees. christie was one of the few willing to challenge his fitness for office, you can talk about electability and popularity and so forth but the question, what christie said is can republicans do better than nominating someone under this legal cloud who's going to be distracted, who is raising money for his defense, and defense of his codefendants. can the republican party do better than that? against president biden who is very very vulnerable. >> i want to listen to an exchange on abortion. >> one talking about a federal ban be honest with the american people. we only had 45 pro-life senators and hundred years so no republican president can ban abortions any more than a democrat president can ban those state laws. >> is haley right or is pence -- >> it's fine for a candidate like pence to come out and layout an ambition, but nikki haley, the practical realities of this, you need 60 senators to get across a 15 week abortion bannon i don't see that happening anytime soon. her point is a winner out there for republicans, stumbling around trying to figure out where to land on abortion. her point is less at the federal level, attempt to cohere around issues in which there's a consensus and there are many areas, late-term abortions, the availability of contraception, the need for more adoptions. that's not only a position that speaks truth to reality but presents the republican party in a more compassionate way that would reflect the better for them with suburban voters and others who have been worried about their position. paul: mike pence and tim scott took a similar position. they are sincere, they are playing for iowa and the evangelical cultural conservative community. >> good point, they are playing for that community, nikki haley is trying to lay groundwork for appealing to independent voters to win the general election so they have both chosen a check a path. what i liked about this, all those candidates are not simply pandering. there is a belief to what they are saying and that was refreshing. >> from beijing's growing alliance with moscow to the fentanyl pouring across the southern border, republican candidates weighed in on the china threat. we will talk to congressman mike gallagher about what he learned next. o weeks! uuuhhhh... here, i'll take that! woohoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams of protein, 1 gram of sugar. enter the $10,000 powered by protein max challenge. ♪ ♪ ♪ if it hurts when you poop sometimes like pinching off ♪ ♪ a porcupine and you're sweatin' your ♪ ♪ next trip to the loo ♪ ♪ colace is the brand you need ♪ ♪ to soften stools we're all agreed ♪ ♪ #2 should be easy to do ♪ trust colace to soften stools, with no stimulants, for comfortable relief. so, you've got the power of xfinity at home. now take it outside with xfinity mobile. like speed? it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only $30 bucks a line per month. that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. all on the most reliable 5g network nationwide. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. switch today at xfinitymobile.com. every business that's why comcast business de is launching theal. mobile made free event. with our business internet, new and existing customers can get one year of unlimited mobile for free. it's our best internet. powered by the next generation 10g network and with 99.9% reliability. plus one line of free mobile for an entire year. it's the mobile made free event-happening now. get started for just $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get one free line of unlimited mobile. comcast business, powering possibilities. >> china is the number one third of our country and every minute, these candidates been talking about the past instead of the future, china loves it when we talk about the past. >> the real threat we face today is communist china. we are driving russia further into china's arms. the russia/china military alliance is the greatest threat we face. nobody is talking about in either political party. >> two of the gop presidential candidates addressing the china threat in wednesday night's debate. my next guest says the commander-in-chief test for those vying to be the republican nominee, republican congressman mike gallagher of wisconsin joins me now, chairman of the house committee on china. you wrote in the wall street journal you wanted to hear what the republican candidates had to say on china. how did they do? >> china was lurking in the background. there was one question about china, you play some of them but we didn't get into the details. going forward, at a minimum those candidates who want to be the next commander in chief have to be asked how they would deter a war with china over taiwan. what can they do to rebuild our military, stockpiles, key long-range precision flyers and the most stressing national security challenge. on the economic front the issue of what guardrails we put on outbound capital flows so we are not subsidizing china's military or our own destruction. and the issue of tiktok, a complex one to be sure. given the trump edna station's efforts, ran into a legal buzz saw. candidates need to be pressed, as far as cross-border data for which there is little to no regulation. >> you heard vivek ramaswamy say communist china is our number one threat, but he also said by supporting ukraine in the war against russia we are driving russia into the arms of china. do you agree with that. >> the no limits partnership between vladimir putin and xi was established prior to the invasion of ukraine, for a while, predating the issue of ukraine, conducting, and new cold war against the west. junior partner in this, we better have a strategy pushes back against both. as we recognize the 2-year anniversary of the loss of 13 servicemembers in afghanistan is important to understand for republican presidential candidates articulate the unnecessary loss, we surrender to terrorists in afghanistan, and i believe contribute the calculus, our goal should be to prevent ukraine's president for becoming from taiwan's future. and we make similar mistakes we made in ukraine. paul: mr. ramaswamy proposed, and we will have enough to mystic semiconductor production here, not depend on taiwan. therefore we can withdraw our support from taiwan in return for a pledge from china not to meddle in the americas. what do you think of that policy idea? >> our interests in taiwan extend beyond semiconductors, primary interest is to prevent the chinese commonest party from dominating the region which they would be able to do if they take taiwan and we allow them to take taiwan, significant consumer semiconductor dominance is the coercive economic power we have, where they have greater economic coercive power if they dominate taiwan given the sheer volume of trade to the indo pacific region. we need to do a better job defending taiwan and explain why that is important. we have many interests, and unable to pursue our treaty commitment to countries like japan and the philippines. this is lifelong ambition. it makes a move in 2025-27-28. each day you should look across the strait and say today is not the day. paul: you mentioned the chinese economy. huge youth unemployment numbers, the declining growth. what do you think the us should do here, do we want to further increase limits on what we can invest and putting the economy in recession and hurting the global economy. >> a matter of principle. i don't think we want american dollars in military companies. the investigation we launch, it cursory initial investigation revealed chinese companies that build things like aircraft carriers, artillery shells, nuclear technology, that makes no sense. we can decouple and subsidize our own destruction and seminaries we have less national security confirms but as a matter of principle, subsidizing military-industrial complex or fueling ongoing technology advancements, suppressing uighur muslims and genocide in the autonomous region. >> thank you for coming in. the electric vehicle bubble, consider used to debate, is it a sign of things to come in the us, as the biden administration violates the ev industrial policy. when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options — which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait — find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. paul: is the electric vehicle bubble starting to deflate? a boom fueled by government some of these building china into a global leader in cars. now he'll transcribe yards across china are lipid with evs whose technology has become outdated in the oversaturated market, bleeding red ink with 400 million busts in the past several years. it doesn't bode well for the us as the biden administration imitates beijing's industrial policy. we are back with dan heninger, kim straw saw and kim, what is going on in china? did they just make a huge mistake subsidizing these evmakers? >> massive subsidies, a whole bunch of direct financing. they certainly got their wish. hundreds and hundreds of ev makers. they had everyone piling into this market, a big real estate company over there went into ev as if that their speciality. now you see price wars going on over there, people having to cut costs to get more people to purchase this, people going out of business, you see those cars pile up in lots all over the place. here's the thing. it's likely to get worse because softening demand is expected in china going forward as the economies there and here become more dicey. this is going to get worse if it ever gets better. paul: what is the situation in the united states for electric vehicles? the biden administration is shoveling enormous subsidies for consumers to purchase them, $7500 car, and electric vehicle, but also the companies themselves and the batterymakers to move into ev production. are we doing too much here that could create trouble? >> the automakers are losing a lot of money on these evs. the battery manufacturing tax credits can reduce the cost of manufacturing batteries, 40% is actually the biggest component of an ev. you mention mentioned $7500 tax credit, states offer 44,000 to 5000 in rebates for buying evs. nonetheless, they are still losing money, 20%, 30% margin. ford announced $4.5 billion. it is worse in the us because of these mandates from the biden administration but also california that requires automakers to increase a share of their fleet and that must be 100% by 2032 under a new proposal under the biden administration, 100% by 2035 in the california states. automakers have to sell these cars, at huge losses just to move them off the dealer lots. we will see a similar story play out here as in china. paul: a real danger that people who make gas powered cars are not going to be able to keep working because companies have to shut down some of those lines to pile into evs. if the mandates the biden administration has proposed continue. >> the assumption is they will continue and we have to consider the political implications of office. where is this headed. the thing to focus on is these are not climate goals. these are mandates, these are requirements. they are forcing the auto industry to transition from gas vehicles to electric vehicles, there should have been a competition between electric vehicles and hybrids so that manufacturers could work through some of the difficulties and consumers could. this will force people to purchase cars that are expensive. we saw the example of what happened in china with all these cars piling up in junkyards. at some point voters are going to be looking for somebody to blame when the cars are too expense of, there aren't enough chargers, supply chains to the metals the going to these batteries aren't available and it is just a going to be a crunch of consumer dissatisfaction ten years from now. paul: i will tell you what happens if that happens, politicians will increase subsidies and force you to purchase evs but they will pay you to purchase of them. that's my prediction. >> also the automakers will jack up prices of gas powered cars to couple those losses from ev. overall if you are the consumer it will be more costly with a lot fewer choices. maybe the government will try to help but that money will run out. paul: economic alarms going on across wall street as long-term interest rates rise. do investors see faster growth ahead or more spending and inflation? we will ask jason to render next. that's my boy. ♪ stay off the freeways! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ you won't overpay for glasses if you shop at america's best. they offer two pairs and a free, quality eye exam starting at just $79.95. i can see from your expression that you find that shocking. ...aaaaaaaand, you don't have ears. book an exam today at americasbest.com. conquer financial reports. conquer 2000-word essays. conquer a 6 course menu. rule over what you write with the smooth writing, longest lasting gel ink pen in america. do you g2? paul: mortgage rates jump to the highest level in 20 years helping dr. mortgage applications to 3 decade low as borrowing costs surge and existing home sales tumbled, one of the many worries on wall street and main street as long-term interest rates rise. fed chairman jerome powell signaling interest rate increases could be coming. jason triggered is chairman and ceo of investment strategy firm. good to see you. why are long rates popping now? is it that investors here there is going to be more spending in government and more inflation or is it because they look at economic growth and it is higher than people estimate? >> i think largely of the fact that rates are normalizing. we had 12 years of quantitative easing, a fancy way, not quite the same as money printing. the fed is no buying treasuries, the balance sheets declining, means rates are normalizing. typically the 10 year treasury yield trades at 200 basis points below the rate of inflation. and it is not surprising rates go back to what's normal. and the global financial crisis the fed manipulates that and the most important price in the world. paul: all the deficits, growing economy, deficits 5% gdp which is extraordinary under historical circumstances. with that comes concern about inflation. is that playing a role? >> absolutely. we have a deficit 5% gdp with full employment. one should be worried about what that might look like if the unemployment rate were to rise or we had a recession. the interesting thing now follows the debt interest expense is skyrocketing because many administrations but this administration has focused on funding itself short. 50% of debt matures in the next three years. net interest expense is going to exceed that of the defense budget next year. once you get into a situation like this. it's very difficult to get out of it without pain. we are the early stages of some of the pain we may see over the next couple years. paul: what about the impact of these mortgage rates, 7% interest is extraordinary in historical terms. it is a shock to a lot of borrowers who have been borrowing 30 year mortgages or lower if they have to borrow at 7 if they want to trade houses. that's a big shock. >> that is why you've seen a lot of strength in new homebuying partly because there is a paucity of inventory because many people in existing homes find it difficult to find a place they can live and afford, given that their current mortgage maybe 2% or 3%, mortgage rates are 7. this is a major driver of the us economy, the volatility of the us economy and this is a big change. i don't think it is easily fixed. we are going back to normal and it is likely we are going to stay normal for a long period of time. paul: what about the impact of the federal reserve, chairman jay powell saying they are dedicated to that 2% inflation target they are going to get back to and if they raise rates and they will. to do so. you think they will raise rates higher? >> they may. i find that encouraging. another one might agree with me on this but jay powell has been consistent in saying the thing they want to avoid most are the stop and go monetary policies in which the fed bod inflation but had to fight inflation three times at successively higher levels. first time they beat inflation it was six, then they needed it when it was 12 and they had to come back again. then inflation was 15. it is far better policy choice which they seem to be following focused on fighting inflation one times that might mean more pain because it is better off in the system in the long run, creates better opportunities for business men and consumers to make long-term decisions, they have confidence in the future of inflation. paul: are you surprised, 45 seconds left, are you surprised we've got the recession so far. there could be one in the next year. >> i still think there could be when. i have been surprised. we have been incorrect in that supposition but i do think if you look at the yield curve, decline in corporate profits and the decline in banks willingness to make loans it would suggest the economy should slow. if not actually slip into recession unfortunately. paul: thanks for being with us. the biden administration officially rolls out plan b for student debt relief, breaking for loan payments to resume after nearly four years. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv - [female narrator] five billion people lack access to safe surgery. thousands of children are suffering and dying from treatable causes. for 40 years, mercy ships has deployed floating hospitals to provide the free surgeries these children need. join us. together, we can give children the hope and healing they never thought possible. it's a mission powered by love, made possible by you. give today. here's why you should switch fro to duckduckgo on all your device duckduckgo comes with a built in engine like google, but it's pri and doesn't spy on your searches and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooki and creepy ads that follow you a from google and other companies. and there's no catch. it's free. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you around showing the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. paul: the biden administration rolled out a new plan for student debt relief with the opening of its save program. a new income driven repayment plan that will allow 20 million to cut their payments by as much as half with some having their balances zeroed out. the program's lunch comes as millions of americans receive a student loan bill for the first time in three years when payments were paused because of covid 19 rather than giving borrowers what the president calls a little breathing room. new data shows many are in a worse position financially than they were before the pandemic. jason riley and dan heninger, what does the new, what does the president's new plan do? allysia: it caps payment to discretionary income and provides $32,000. it would reduce payments by more than half under the existing repayment plan. saving many borrowers tens of thousands of dollars in the long-term. during the pandemic, it saved students $200 on average. borrowers would repay $470 billion in debt according to the and wharton model. that's more than president biden's student loan forgiveness was expected to cost. paul: $407 billion. what legislative authority is the president calling for? >> 0, just waving it into magic executive order. let's get cynical about this. clearly after the first one was struck down by the supreme court, they are back and the point is democrats joe biden really want the college vote or the vote of recently graduated college students carrying this debt. the political question is by putting the subject in front of people so often will it build resentment as suggested with the first one among young people who are not having debt forgiven like that. they may have a mortgage they have taken on, the government isn't forgiving that. or people going to trade school to learn another trade. those lower middle-class voters resent what president biden is doing for graduate students and recent college graduates. paul: what do you think of jason, will they? jason: this is a subsidy for the middle class. or upper-middle-class. there is the sense that people who pay back their loans are being played for fools. no one likes to feel they are being played for a sucker and there is the moral hazard issue. even if this does pass legal muster the way the first plan did not. the underlying moral hazard issue is still there. if you are forgiving debt, you are encouraging reckless borrowing. that's not some and we should be doing. paul: they are not making any changes at all to the programs but piling more debt in the future. you have an interesting point in your column this week that student loan borrowers haven't benefited from the pause in payments during the pandemic as much as asserted by politicians so explain why that is. allysia: it depends how you define benefit. student borrowers take on more debt. student loan borrowers, the share of student loan borrowers increased by 50% so they benefited in terms of buying more things, cars, take out mortgages. they have more debt and struggle, we are seeing that, jpmorgan announces the top quarter of student loan borrowers, the delinquency rates are 25% above pre-pandemic levels. they are financially worse off even though they may have benefited from the pause and the loan forgiveness. paul: the big question, if this is such a great policy why don't democrats try to pass it through congress, force republicans to vote for it and use it as an election issue? >> it is an election issue. that's precisely it. so many things democrats, progressives want to do that they can't get through congress through house of representatives which represents people all over the united states because it isn't popular enough to path so they are doing so many things through executive order through regulatory fiat. that has become the democratic game plan. get control of the white house and order the country to do these things. you want to sue them, fine but they put regulations in place and plans like this, congress basically becomes a nullity. paul: when we come back, hit and misses of the week. to supp, muscle, bone, and heart health. yaaay! woo hoo! ensure with 25 vitamins and minerals and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ as someone living with type 2 diabetes, i want to keep it real and talk about some risks. with type 2 diabetes you have up to 4 times greater risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. even at your a1c goal, you're still at risk ...which if ignored could bring you here... ...may put you in one of those... ...or even worse. too much? that's the point. get real about your risks and do something about it. talk to your health care provider about ways to lower your risk of stroke, heart attack, or death. learn more at getrealaboutdiabetes.com time never hits and misses of the week jason to you. rex is the big hits into her recent became the fourth country after the u.s., the soviet union and china to land a spacecraft on the moon. the first country to land around the moon was the south pole it's impressive because the rugged terrain there. and goes to the world's largest democracy was the fastest growing economies. i know joins a very elite club in the space race. so congratulations. perfect alicia? dick's sporting goods, walmart and target a reporting by they make them in shoplifting. help with the executive spoke more clearly impending about the problem are two alternative schools the wall street journal reported this week about the growth of micro- schools. they are private schools that resemble the old one room schoolhouse gaining in popularity all over the country. meanwhile report knows and roman catholic schools is rising in florida. this is directly or through because the school scholarship on that use parents use tax dollars to pay for children's tuition for teachers unions refuse to let public schools be held accountable. an entrepreneur of teachers are being creating alternatives good for them. corks would like to remind our audience oven has been in a prison he's been detained on false charges of spying. this week the russians extended his detention for another three months ap. we will not forget evan. we hope the u.s. government is doing everything in its power to gain his release for those that for this week schopp to my panel unto all of you for watching. we hope to see right here next week. ♪ ♪ ♪ [background noises] >> what is going on? eric: you're hearing deadly gunfire and sends players and fans running for cover, happening during a high school football game in oklahoma. it happened last night. at the high school game thus just east of oklahoma city. police confirm three people were shocked. shot. one of them a 16-year-old teen was killed for this a brand-new hour of "fox news live" find eric shawn. alicia