book published. and the media frenzy around the amber heard/johnny depp trial and alerts are unavoidable. first, one of the biggest scoops in american journalism history and it was about one of the most polarizing issues in history. we knew the supreme court would be ruling on abortion this summer. we knew the conservative joert could kol back roe v. wade. we knew it could be a big story through mid-june. but through sensational scoop, it landed early. this report from monday night about the draft majority popinin dated february is by far the most far right view in political history. it's still dominating news nearly a week later. so we're going to hear several unique voices, including a former reporter turned planned parenthood director. but let's begin going behind the scenes with the political bombshell that started it all, one of the politico's top editors, dafna linzer. she's the top head iter and with me now. dafna, when you found out your editors obtained this draft report opinion, what happened? >> you know, they were working we hard, our reporters, josh gerstein, and alex ward, to try and confirm what they had and try to understand it, and our role was to kind of help them and support them so they could verify the information, understand the context in the moment that you said, and get ready to publish. >> it seems to me there was a several day process, i know you're not talking about the timeline in details but the white house correspondents' dinner was the same time last week, and white house correspondents' dinner last sunday and when you were there, you knew it was in the works, right? >> it was an extraordinary moment we were gathering in person for the first time with colleagues from across washington to celebrate the first amendment, which is what that dinner is really about. we did publish the next day, the next evening, monday evening. there was just a few of us in the newsroom that evening. a lot of people still working remotely. so it was quite a moment. >> did you all ever hesitate about publishing? was there ever a scenario you would not have published a story about this draft ruling? >> i think for us, brian, there were just two issues for us. is the document authentic? do we understand it? and is it in the public interest? once we knew it was authentic and in the public interest, we were ready to go. >> you were 100% sure it was authentic before you published? >> we were. >> and the story referred to some sort of source saying the vote count had not changed since february. that implied someone was feeding information that was current, not just from february, but was current. can you say whether your reporters are still in touch with that source? >> i can't talk about the sourcing or that timeline or any aspect of that. i can say that alex ward and josh gerstein, very seasoned reporters, very seasoned newsroom, reporters with deep experience and they felt comfortable that we understood not just the draft opinion but that moment and understanding that moment was key to understanding where the court was at the time that we were ready to go. >> chief justice john roberts announced a leak investigation. he called the leak absolutely appalling. has politico been contacted by the court and authorities investigating the leak? >> we have not. honestly, we don't know more about the investigation that has been made public so far. >> do you expect he will be investigated or pursued? >> you know, the chief did not mention publication in his statement and we don't see any evidence of a crime here. >> because you obtained a document, you published it, it's legit. so what now? what is politico working on now? let me ask you this, dafna, was the reaction has intense as you expected? what did you expect monday night when you published? >> i think we were all fully aware of just how unprecedented something like this is to be able to peek inside internal deliberations of the supreme court, which is not exactly the most transparent branch of government. and getting a good sense of that, we understood as you said, i think, brian, at the beginning, we talk about how polarizing this is, we understand this is very much a story, very much a politico story actually, because it is as meaningful and as important to people across the political spectrum, that people feel as passionate and invested in the outcome of this case, regardless of their party affiliation. >> there were a lot of arguments for the leak but i don't see people calling out politico for publishing. everybody wanted to know what was happening and you have given us a preview. i saw a argument, a headline saying, this is good the supreme court's veil of secrecy has been punctured. is this going to happen more often now? is this going to be the new normal for supreme court rulings? >> it's hard to say. i'm not really in the prediction business. we did publish -- on the night we published the story, josh gerstein had a very important accompanying piece looking at the history of leaks at the supreme court. never one quite like this but currently there have been sort of tea leaves and leaks in the past. i do think that the public, again, has a very clear right to know about what's happening and i don't know how that's going to impact the court and how it proceeds going forward. >> what's your number one note about the media coverage going forward? you just joined politico. you have been at nbc and other outlets. put on your media critic hat for me. what do we need to put front and center as we cover reproductive rights in the months to come? >> i think this is a story, again, politico is going to own, already has owned it and will cover it from every single. it's obviously a very passionate topic across the country. people are as i said weekally invested on booth sides and i think that's something to keep in mind. >> absolutely, thank you, dafna, thank you for coming on. let's bring in our media panel, "the washington post's" media reporter elahe izadi and cnn media critic. you wrote a podcast this week, the power of language, what do you mean by that? >> yes, when we talk about how media covers really fraught topics such as abortion, the way in which it's framed, even the words we use to describe any side of a debate are really consequential. when it comes to abortion, for many years the media adopted the language and nomenclature as pro-life, which is something the natural side of the debate wanted it to be cast that. and this week i had an episode with my colleague margaret, media columnist, and she made a point when we talk about pro-life in those terms and what is the opposite side of pro-life, anti-life? a lot of media organizations, mainstream media organizations in recent years no longer use that language. they use abortion rights or anti-abortion rights language because they say that's more precise to what we're talking about. but still that language is still quite common and it partly has to do with how we allow people when our sources to define themselves. we refer to people in how they like to be referred to. but it shapes our understanding of what this issue is about. >> the activists know a lot about the subject they're deeply invested but many americans do know not know the detail. let me show you one, america's views on abortion or confusing because they don't much mr. it, they don't know how pregnancies progress or who gets abortion and what will happen in their state in roe is gone. she went on to say americans don't know very much about this because they don't like to think about it. they don't like the politics. they don't like the debate. i thought that was really spot on. people don't like to think about something like this. and a lot of folks don't, frankly, know the details about reproduction and reproductive rights. so elia, it seems to be a challenge for the media 20 do. >> and i would put forth a lot of lawmakers need to think about some of those very topics. >> i think you're right. >> it does become confusing. this is an issue in which there's a group of activists who feel very strongly about and they've been working for decades on this issue and they're very passionate about it. there are voters who only vote on this issue but for large segments of the population, they're not thinking about it as much or in such passionate terms. >> yeah. >> so it does become -- and if it doesn't impact you, maybe you are not thinking about it, maybe you are not educating yourself. in some of these states abortions is already restricted heavily. places in oklahoma and texas and that provides a preview of what's to come for the rest of the country. >> i have been doing a lot of reading the last few days. i think many of us have, brian lowery, i was reading this morning a "l.a. times" story about women in texas how to get an abortion and whether they still can given the heartbeat law. here's what i was missing, lowery, men. you know what word i think is missing? sex. i went through and looked at the cable news this week transcripts, and almost no one talks about what leads to the need for abortion. it takes two to tango. where are the then? where is the conversation about men and sex and what is causing this in the first place? seems to me that's the missing part of the story. >> i think that's true and i think you've seen -- it's basically been limited to jokes and memes. if men were subject to abortion laws, this would happen. we really haven't seen not only what it means for women and what it also means for men. what it means for men. i have seen a few people point to what it means for men if women bring children to term they don't want. but that hasn't been covered enough. i think the other thing that really hasn't been covered enough, i just watched a documentary that premiered at sundance called "the janes," which is about an underground abortion network that existed before roe. those women are alive. those -- roe was 49 years ago but we have -- that's in many people's lifetimes. and i don't think we heard enough voices yet, and we probably will, but watching that documentary, it really felt like there was an opportunity. we tend to talk about this issue in abstract terms. we see people compare it the "handmaid's tale" but there are real cases that you can look like to be pointed out and can add a great deal to the discussion. >> great point. let me bring in our other analyst, david french, we were having tech issues, senior host of the podcast. what do you think about the pending abortion rights in many states in the u.s., what do you want people to keep in mind about how it should be covered in the months ahead? >> i think it should be covered by informing people, first and foremost. one of the things we see, as just mentioned, folks don't even know what it means when you say should roe v. wade be overturned? that is, for example, is a virtually useless poll question because they interpret it should abortion be banned or not banned, which is not what roe v. wade is about. it's about who decides, justices of the supreme court or is it decided by voters, either through congress or their state legislator? s there's just an enormous amount of work that has to be done to educate people about what the issues are. i think also the media needs some education as well. i think the media class is much more intensely focused on this issue than a lot of the rest of americans. you're seeing in the polling rather interesting things that seem to be not really tracking with each other. for example, there was a cnn poll that indicated strong american support for at least some degree of abortion rights but also strong american support for the gop in the midterm elections and the gop is the party that is the pro-life party, democrats' pro-choice party. so how can that be? if there's strong support for abortion rights amongst americans and they're going to vote republican, that tells us a lot about relative intensity. how much do people care about this issue? and i think sometimes the media, because it's so glued to twitter often misses the fact that abortion is really downstream from a lot of people's lives in the united states of america, where part of this american class that's super-focused on this issue and an awful lot of americans are not. >> i agree with that and i think many people don't want to think about it until they're confronted by it because it's national news. there's a lot more here. let's everybody stick around and take a quick break here. coming up, we'll get into the handoff, the mishandle at the white house secretary podium. first, one year ago she was a cbs reporter and now she worked for planned parenthood. what kate smith has to say about the media's coverage of roe v. wade. she's upup next. mmon sense” can't keep up. this is going to get tens and tetens of views. ♪ ♪ ( car crashing ) ♪ ♪ but if you don't have the right auto insurance coverage, you could be left to pay for this... yourself. call a local agent or 1-888-allstate for a quote today. ♪ ♪ bonnie boon i'm calling you out. everybody be cool, alright? 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do you advocate for a national ban through the senate in the years to come? >> the life issue is so complicated but the catholic church makes no mistakes about this, pro-life is pro-life. life is life, it begins in the womb. everybody knows that. making the decision about abortion is one that has been tainted by misinformation from the right and from the left. and that's the goal of ewtn, bringing out that truth. mother evan jell ka, a woman, founded this network to share the truth with people and that's what is missing in the media today. >> what is the misinformation from the right? >> the misinformation from the right? i think even saying that the leak is a full ban on abortion, telling people roe versus wade is over, that's a big, big, big mistake the media is making. telling people that's where the fight ends. it doesn't end there. that's the beginning of a discussion that has been stilted. the democratic process stopped on this issue on the minute roe was decided by seven men. >> you're saying talking about pro-life, it also means taking care of the families, helping people, supporting them. >> absolutely. >> you don't trust republicans to follow through on that? >> republicans, democrats. you have democrats who are pro-life as well and want to see families taken care of. christian day is always on tv shows telling people listen to democrats who want to be a part of this party and feel completely excluded. >> do you -- as we talked about this in the past few days and many people are getting up to speed in the first time. can you see why many women and some men for that matter are afraid ied and ief will be banned in years to come? >> there is fear, you look at catholic churches, people were standing outside their doors fearing someone would come in and provoke violence on their mother's day masses today, again, both sides, because of lack of information. they don't understand what's happening, emotions are raging and it's time to slow down. >> and it's also republican lawmakers passing legislation that would call iuds or ivf to be at risk. >> do you really think this is only the republican party? you don't think there's fearmongering on both sides? the nice thing about being at a catholic network, i don't have to look through a political lens. it's focused on capital isty, the catholic fate. we don't need to pander to one side or the other. >> including to catholics who speak out about abortions? >> many catholics who suffered abortions, many catholics who don't understand the beginning and end of life, who need a network like ewtn to share is that information with them. >> it's very complicated, thank you very much for coming on, montse. >> thank you very muches for having me. now another personal story with a unique twist. for years kate smith was a reporter for cbs news. part of her beat, for a while all of her beat, was reproductive rights. she filed day reports for long documentaries and one took her to el salvador, where abortion is illegal. last summer she decided to leave cbs and is now working for planned parenthood. and kate joins me now. kate, why did you leave cbs news last year? >> there were a few reasons why i left cbs news but most relevant to this conversation is at the time my editor was no longer interest in cutting abortion policy, sexual health, which i spent so much time learning and becoming an expert in. so when i was thinking of the next steps of my career, having that off the table, i started considering other options. >> i think we need more reporters in that area but okay. tell us what does abortion policies at planned parenthood do, what is your job? >> abortion stories are -- it's a local news story but often with a national frame. when you read a story about texas' six-week abortion ban, you will get a quote from ted cruz, size and scope about how many abortion bans have been claimed, that sort of thing. but for the patient that wakes up the next morning and want to know whether or not they have an appointment, that's the news they need delivered. in that article, i promise you, she will not be able to figure out whether or not her appointment is on. i tell you that because i was a reporting writing those stories for cbs news and i can't tell you how many messages and dms i got from patients asking me, i saw your article about the six-week ban. can you walk me through whether or not i have an appointment today? i can tell you today after that leak on monday, our planned parenthood health centers, we have been flooded with calls for people who are concerned about their birth control appointments or concerned about their abortion appointments. because of the way we cover abortion in the media with this national frame, often it's awe political story, we're leaving patients out of the equation. my parenthood doing news content, what we want to do is solve for that. if you want to understand your rights right now, come to planned parenthood, we're the experts. think about cancer, for example, if you want to understand cancer treatments, you would rather go to sloan-kettering's content than "the new york times" article, right? >> that makes sense. last year the national review, conservative outlet, called you planned parent's ambassador to cbs. they said you were posing as a are the roar and constructing articles that closely resembles press releases as opposed to news. that was the charge at cbs and now you're at planned parenthood. how do you react to those who said you were biased? >> if you're a blogger, you don't realize how many different pieces we publish before anything goes on air. we have standards and lawyers. there's a thorough review of what's going on. he stand by every article i write. i would say making that accusation, you're playing into the right. anybody who doesn't fall by their rules, who was an anti-abortion, is against them. if you're trying to cover this from a neutral point of view and including both sides, they automatically think you're against them. they rueview doctors as anti-orr abortion. even though these are doctors we're talking about. i reject the criticism. i don't think people understand how newsrooms actually work, they don't have that kind of experience. yeah, completely reject that criticism. >> while at cbs, i mentioned your trip to el salvador. what have you learned there and how does it relate to the u.s. now? >> that report was eye-opening and help me put together to the pieces of what i was seeing on the ground happening. at the time the trip was 2019, so none of these restrictive abortion plans had gone in place. and you inquiry hearing from doctors about what might happen if abortion plans go into effect. when we went there is what we saw is the things doctors were warning about were happening realtime on the ground. i had a doctor tell me he had patients die -- had patients die -- because he wasn't allowed to give them an abortion that would have saved their life. we met with a doctor kwhos giving abortions illegally and he was saying there's been absolutely no difference in demand for abortions, whether it's legal or not. there's no difference. and then most really like keeps me up at night is when i spoke to the women who were in prison for having an abortion and there were some in there that had not seen their family in years because this precedent is in such a dangerous place and their family can't visit. they say think mischarged, they wake up and they're shackled to the hospital bed and there's a police officer in there investigating them. i can tell you the doctors told me when they're looking at a patient, there's no way for them to tell the difference between an induced abortion and spontaneous miscarriage. you can't tell the difference. that is a medical fact. so it's just up to a judge to decide. and these people were saying they were innocent. and as a proof point, many of those patients -- excuse me, many of those women in prison have since been released because there wasn't enough evidence to put them in prison. again, all of these things we say might happen if abortion gets banned or becomes illegal, they do happen. this isn't a theory. we don't need to spec slate. speculate. we have actual facts that can inform what happens. >> kate, thank you very much. thank you for being here. leaks, they're definitely a theme this week. from the supreme court now to the battleground in ukraine. why are anonymous u.s. officials bragging before sharing intel with ukraine to cause wrrussian deaths? we'll get into that with david frenench in just a moment. of...this. so yoe this is the planning effect. 4 if you have this... consider adding this. an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare. medicare supplement plans help by paying some of what medicare doesn't... and let you see any doctor. any specialist. anywhere in the u.s. who accepts medicare patients. so if you have this... consider adding this. call unitedhealthcare today for your free decision guide. ♪ this just in to cnn, canada prime minister justin trudeau has been meeting with the leaders of ukraine. details to come. u.s. first lady jill brooid also traveled to the country and met with the ukrainian first lady. we will have more on this later on cnn. we have to talk about the leaks this week, including a reporter from "the new york times" claiming u.s. intelligence has been helping ukraine kill russian generals. the white house pushed back on that framing calling the headline misleading, saying it was irresponsible. there also have been leaks from the intelligence committee about the u.s. helping ukraine target the top ship the moskva. they called the top officials urging them to plug the leaks and tom frieden reporting, i'm told he called the director of the national intelligence and cia and secretary of defense to make clear in the strongest language this talk is reckless and needs to talk immediately. and i'm told the president was livid about these weeks. joining me contributor writer for "the atlantic," david french. david, are news writers right or wrong to publish the information they're told by these anoneymou officials? >> i think this fits within the u.s.'s individuality function. i think there are circumstances in which an administration can go to, news outlet, and say this is an absolute matter of life and death. establish it's a matter of life and death or near equivalent and the news outlet can responsibly say no. but what we're talking about here is the conduct of a nation and conduct of our intelligence agencies in one of the most important stories -- the most important, arguably, story in the world right now. i think what's important here is that i'm seriously doubtful this is news to the russians. if you're talking about the ability of ukrainians to uncannily target key targets, russian military targets, that is something logic suggests is sort of outside of the capability of the ukrainian military acting alone. i do think the main problem as a practical matter with the leak is a sense the administration or administration officials are bragging about it, that's something they are trying to throw into russia's face, what they're doing or take political credit or credit in the court of public opinion for their actions in the war. i think that's where it gets a bit more dangerous because what's happening is they are essentially dunking on the russians in public, so to speak. but as far as would russia have any idea that we were doing this before the leak, i think that's just fiction. >> i see. these are anonymous leaks. we're also getting on-the-record confirmation about chaos from the trump years thanks to mark esperz' upcoming book. let's look at this. his book comes out tuesday. the former secretary of defense. in the book, there's a lot in the book, one of the revelations is esper claimed in 2021 he was asked about launching troops in israel to destroy drug kartdles. yet another credible revelation from the trump years this time on the record from the secretary of defense and he had to sue to get his book published. there's a pentagon-prepublication process and it held it up. and they didn't want this drug lab detail to come out. so he sued. now the book is coming out. tell us about that process though that the defense department had to review his book first. is it possible they were trying to stop embarrassing news about trump from getting out? >> well, that's not the intent of the review process, although sometimes that's the effect of the review process or way it is distorted. the intent is obvious and makes sense, if you're a person exposed to an avalanche of secret information, there need to be steps taken and classified information. there needs to be steps taken and classified information that it doesn't enter the public domain. but it's not a process that is supposed to be pro atlantictive of the president's political reputation or save the president from embarrassment. embarrassing moments are not classified because they're embarrassing. i think oftentimes when you have a prepublication review process, one that's sensibly designed to prevent a leaking of classified information that can damage classified security, it can often morph into something else, a process designed to prevent embarrassment. >> i see. well, the book is out tuesday. we will see for ourselves. david french, thank you so much. >> thank you. up next, why ceo's brand-new ceo and what he wants this network to do. made fresh, to leave you... speechleless. panera's new chef's chickeken sandwiches. $1 delivery fee on our app. hey lily, i need a new wireless plan for my business, but all my employees need something different. oh, we can help with that. okay, imagine this. your mover, rob, he's on the scene and eds a plan with a mobile hotspot. we cut to downtown, your sales rep lisa has to send some files, like asap! so basically i can pick the right plan for each employee. yeah i should've just led with that. with at&t business. you can pick the best plan for each employee and get the best deals on every smart phone. 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let's bring our panel in for a conversation when that as well. elahe izadi is with me, brian lowery of cnn, and npr critic derrick eggins. it is logical given her background and trailblazing status that's this comes when there are debates about gay rights, anti-lgbtq laws being passed in many states and jean-pierre now taking over later this month. >> yeah, this is definitely a history making moment. as the new press secretary has said, when she came out to talk about her appointment in this role that she acknowledges the history being made and tried to pivot and said everyone who's here at the white house, we're here on behalf of the american people. the biden administration has made these sort of history-making moves before. it will be interesting to see this new press secretary in this role at a time when issues around lgbtq rights are coming to the forefront in media coverage and especially on the states' level. and also we were expecting jen psaki to leave the post for some time. she's rumored to be going to msnbc. we'll see if that's the case. it does make sense as far as who would take the mantel. and jen psaki, when she came into the role, she made her point to restore the protocol or quote/unquote civility that had been absent from the briefing room during the trump administration. her briefings don't make cable news the way they did during the trump administration so i expect nothing to change in that regard. >> and staying on that, mow sedan malo, she said, suzanne will continue in her role but not cover politics, the capital or white house whis karin is serving as press secretary. she hasn't sign youed a deal and is still at the white house but she's going to msnbc. is there a possibility she plays a role at 9:00 p.m.? rachel maddow is only hosting on mondays so msnbc has a big 9:00 p.m. vacancy? >> that's a big possibility. that would be a really big promotion, a big jump. we've seen -- i liken in ways cable news people going into government and politics into cable news to be coaches going from the sideline straight to broadcast booths. some of them can make that transition easily and some do not. it would be a huge gamble i think to take someone who really hasn't had the experience. there's a unique skill to hosting one of these shows. and i think taking someone straight from that and putting them in that -- nicole wallace has blossomed into a very polished anchor but i think that's a learning curve. >> i am glad you think this job looks hard brian lowery. >> i want to be invited back. >> and there's a new 9:00 p.m. show being installed in the fall. i want to read about where this network is heading. sadly, too many people lost trust in the media. we can be a beacon by regaining that trust. challenging the status quo. questioning group think and educating viewers and readers with straightforward facts and insightful commentary by always being respectful of differing viewpoints. fist and foremost, we will be advocates for truth. david deegan, you're an advocate for truth, any thoughts about that? >> we at warner brothers is interested on a cnn more focused on news coverage and less focused on opinion so this seems sort of in line with that. i have known chris since he was executive producer of "cbs this morning" and he's someone known for hiring talented people and letting them do their jobs, which is a little different way of going about things than the previous guy in the job, jeff zucker. it will be interesting to see how far he lets the people underneath him take some of these coverage ideas and coverage decisions. you were talking about the 9:00 p.m. slot and chris said he wanted to do experimentation over the summer before landing on i apermanent choice this fall. what's interesting to me is that msnbc in particular, i haven't seen a lot of consternation over developing someone to take that job. so i wonder if the cable news channels aren't shifting a little more and a little more focused online. we've seen "meet the press" for example will have a show on nbc news now, they're ad supported news network, digital network. i'm wondering if there's less of an emphasis on linear television in general here. >> still popular and profitable though. my question is challenging group think, questioning group think, that would be a benefit for viewers. stand by, more on the humors of johnny depp/a/amber heard trial. and proactive alerts on market evevents. that's decision tech. only from fidelity. ♪ ♪ i came, i saw, i conquered. (all): hail, caesar! pssst caesar! julius! dude, you should really check in with your am on ringcentral. i was thinking like. oh hi, caesar. we were just talking about you. ha ha ha. yeah, you should probably get out of here. not good. ♪ ♪ ♪ ringcentral ♪ asya agulnik md: st. jude was founded with an understanding that no child should die in the dawn of life. to work with many partners all over the world, nothing stops in the way of us achieving that mission, not even war. marta salek md: when there is a need, people stand up and do what is right and ensure that they restart medical therapy as quickly as possible. carlos rodriguez-galindo md: any child suffering today of cancer is our responsibility. ready to turn your dreams into plans and your actions into achievements? explore over 75 programs and four-week classes at national university. your future starts today at nu.edu. fanduel and draftkings, two out of state corporations making big promises to californians. what's the real math behind their ballot measure for online sports betting? 90% of profits go to the out of state corporations permanently. only eight and a half cents is left for the homeless. and in virginia, arizona, and other states, fanduel and draftkings use loopholes to pay far less than was promised. sound familiar? it should. it's another bad scheme for california. johnny depp versus amber heard seems to be everywhere. the trial in virginia is following hashtags, memes, tiktoks and lots and lots of live coverage, wall to wall on multiple channels and streaming services. this is a high wattage trial with formerly married actors, big celebrities. it's understandable there's a lot of media interest, but there's a public spectacle aspect to it that seems uncomfortable to some people. the panel back here with me. brian lowry as well. eric, my chair is breaking as i'm talking to y'all, that's why i'm stumbling. while i fix my chair, let me ask you, what is the unique quality about this trial? what do you see going on in the coverage? >> well, what i really see is that in, this is one of the situations where the audience is leading the media as opposed to the other way around. if you look at this story and you're privy to that kind of information, this is near the top of search. amber heard/johnny depp, every single day. often above other major, major stories. because this is a relatively modern occurrence to get realtime data on what people are searching for, what people are looking for, and that includes newspapers as well as tv networks as well as digital operations, they're feeding that appetite and a case of news organizations being monolith ik and making decisions, in this case, they're giving the people what they want. >> the audience driving the media. do you feel on the media beat, style beat? >> this whole spectacle is taking place at the courthouse. in some ways, this is a local story for us. you have throngs of johnny depp fans coming out, trying to pack the court there. trying to line up early to get wristbands to get in. whereas maybe something like this, would take place in california, maybe a camera allowed in this case, the judge had discretion and chose to allow cameras and now we're having in our own backyard in the "washington post" this sort of spectacle unfold. we've been covering it in that way as well. >> yeah, it's a local story. how do you think people should process these cameras in courtroom events when these trials become like entertainment vehicles? >> yeah, it is a sort of odd to see this story explode, particularly across social media, and what has often happened is because the trial itself is long and can be tedious, people are grabbing little bits and pieces and then adding their own spin to it and posting it on social media, tiktok. people who are not watching the trial may have a distorted idea of what's happening depending on which source they're getting their information from or which clip they watch. it's been interesting to watch the difference testimony sort of sliced and diced. i think johnny depp by testifying first got a real head start on public opinion so i think amber heard is having a hard time because he's had the ability to sort of set the agenda as far as what the arguments are. >> thank you, everybody, for the conversation. i called justin trudeau the head of state but he's the head of government. queen elizabeth is the head of state in canada, thanks to the viewers who wrote in to tell me. thank you to my mom and all you moms watching. jake tapper is up next. ♪ if you find yourself on your feet all day, why not put a little spring in your step? 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