to on a regular basis. and we find that when we do live events, a lot of the audience comes up to our hosts and treats them like friends, like they already know them. and we have to sort of remind ourtalent, our hosts, that, you know, to expect this. and it'sjust one of those quirks that, in part, i think it's the nature of the way you listen to the shows. here's a quote to start us off. it's from an annual report on digital news from the reuters institute for the study ofjournalism. it came out on monday and describes news podcasting as, "a bright spot for publishers, which attracts younger, well—educated listeners." given that there aren't so many bright spots for many news organisations at the moment, that is something to hold on to and i wanted to open up to everyone first. lewis, you're here. you've covered many an election over your very young life. you make me sound so old. yeah, not that old. but you've managed to get in on a few elections. but could you have ever seen that podcasting would be so central to this one? well, i definitely didn't foresee that it would be so central- to my one in terms of this election. | but, no, i think that this is, um, | uh, this is without doubt the first real podcast election, - i think, really, in the sense that there are now so many providers and so many shows offering really, . really top—class analysis of the election. - and not just analysis as well. i mean, i've been travelling around the country since basically - the start of the campaign, - reporting, and i think that is also the kind of newer thing . and something especially on news agents we try and do, which is do our own stuff, - not just commenting and talking i about whatever's happened to have happened in the campaign or other people'sjournalism, _ but to do our own journalism. and i think that's- a really exciting part. and probably the next frontier, really, of podcasting, - not just for the election, but in general as well. . tony, let's go back to you, because you founded goalhanger with gary lineker a few years back. you now make a number of podcasts — the rest is politics. the rest is entertainment, the rest is football, the rest is money and the empire podcast. ijust wonder, when you go back to when you founded the company with gary lineker, what was your goal? well, frankly, it was to be a tv production company specialising largely in sport. so, i mean, it's a very strange journey we've taken. but, um, about 2019 we started to experiment with podcasting and it's got an amazing attribute, podcasting. it's the first time i'd worked in the media where we, uh, didn't need a commissioner, we didn't have to persuade somebody of the merits of our idea, we didn't have to persuade them to, um, to give us budget to make something. we could just do it ourselves. and, of course, there are dangers with that, because there's no intermediary checking that our ideas aren't nonsense. but at the same time, if we have an idea that we really like, um, we can back it and take the risk ourselves, own the ip, you know, terribly modern media way of describing these things, but we retain our own ip. um, we take a risk. we put shows out there and we see if we can grow an audience. ip being intellectual property. and ijust wonder, was there a moment when you thought, "0k, goodness, podcasts are going to become our central thing. "they are going to become the thing that our company is known for more than anything else" 7 yes, there was a very distinct moment, and that was the rest is history. uh, tom holland, dominic sandbrook, uh, which we started three or four years ago. it suddenly exploded in popularity. there was a really remarkable breakthrough. um, it suddenly went from being, you know, two middle—aged white guys chatting about carthage to suddenly having a massive, massive appeal. evidently, it's very popular. and if that's the content, let me ask you about some of the organisation behind the content. for example, what's the business model here? how does goalhanger make money from the podcast and how do you remunerate the presenters? so, i mean, the business model is, um, uh, in some ways quite traditional. lt-s. uh. — an advertiser—funding model. there's two forms of advertising on a podcast. one is what you would understand by a spot ad that's just a random 30—second ad that would, uh, appear in the show and would suggest you drink a certain brand of beer or a soft drink. um, and then there is something called the host—read ad. that is when the actual presenter of the show, the host of the show, endorses something specific. so, you know, i won't name them since we're on the bbc. but, you know, we've had travel brands, we've had, um, uh, entertainment brands. and, uh, the beauty of that is that the endorsement by the host, and we reserve the right to decline to do any of those we wish, uh, so we did them on a case by case basis, but they're four times as valuable as a regulation spot ad. it is worth bringing in nick hilton here from podotjust to give us some of the kind of context for these news podcasts, nick, if you will, because i know you were previously broadcast editor at the spectator, but now you are a big podcast specialist, make a load yourself. um, but the stats are quite murky, aren't they, in terms of, you know, how many people are actually listening. what are the figures and what's a good numberfor a podcast? we generally say that any podcast with over 20,000 listeners - per episode can start to wash its face. - below that, basically, . there's no obvious route to commercialisation, _ certainly not through the various agency advertisers who, for instance, acast, - who i believe are partners with goalhanger. - certainly they won't entertain a podcast less than that. - it just doesn't work for them. so you either do little bespoke | deals, and we do a lot of that, j or you go for quantity. and that's kind of the model that goalhanger has gone for. - and the same with the news agents. on the numbers, i can tell you we do 38 million downloads a month. in fact, we just did that this month and that's a record. um, the rest is politics does about ten million downloads a month. the rest is history does about 12 million downloads a month. the rest is football and entertainment do about four million each. um, and, frankly, you can work the money out relatively easily because it's all done on a thing called a cpm, which is a cost per mille, which i discovered, having not studied latin at school, is a cost per thousand. so, in other words, you get paid by the number of thousands of people. you get paid a set amount for every 1,00 people who hear an ad. 1,000 people who hear an ad. so, actually, you know, with a little bit of working out, you can get... you can do the maths relatively easily. the rest is politics does about 700,000, uh, listeners an episode, with another quarter of a million watching on youtube. so we're about a million people. 0k, well, i want to bring in lewis goodall now, um, co—host of the news agents made by global, also an lbc presenter. full disclosure, also an ex—colleague of mine when we worked together at newsnight. uh, exactly. back in new broadcasting house. i remember when you launched that show, suddenly you, our other colleague emily maitlis — still your colleague — and jon sopel, three bbc people on those billboards everywhere, as far as i could tell, across london, anyway, wherever you drove, into the airport, practically, you were there. but in terms of what you're doing differently, you're three ex—bbc people who are now doing something different outside the bbc? how would you categorise it? i mean, it is different cos it's a different medium, i and we've had to sort _ of find our way in terms of doing that and doing journalism - in a medium that none of us had primarily operated in, j inevitably is different. but i wouldn't characterise... i wouldn't say that what we're doing is fundamentally different to that i which we want to do at the bbc. certainly not from my point of view, which is, you know, fundamentally. in my heart of hearts, i'm a reporter, i want| to dojournalism and i want to tell stories. l and what's fantastic, - actually, i found about, um, news agents, and again, i suppose, in a way, - i'd like to think this is perhaps - where the sort of distinctive space that we occupy in terms of the sort of news podcasting market - in britain, which is that, - as i said at the very beginning, we are doing our own original- journalism and our own reporting. and i have found that, actually, of all... - i mean, i've done, you know, tv, radio, podcasting, the great, - great thing about reporting, in terms of podcasting, - is you have space and you have time and you have texture. _ i came back, from just before the general election, - doing a piece in tbilisi in georgia. um, you know, telling the story- about why that matters and why uk audiences should care about it. we gave it a full 45, 50 minutes. one of the proudest things that i've done in my career. - and you can do that in terms of building the texture, - building the voices in a way that actually, i think, _ is unique, actually. and you clearly have a very loyal audience, an audience that's come to this podcast and loves this podcast. you've talked about podcasting being the future of news. why do you say that? in an era where we know what is happening to tvi news, in particular, - which i still continue to love, and in so many ways, - it continues to be in my heart. we are aware of whatl the demographics are, and we are also aware - of what the demographics are for podcasting. those demographics are that older people are watching... older people are watching news and, |you know, frankly, in each and everyj year it's getting smaller, i for a self—evident reason. but we also know, in terms - of podcasting, what it is in terms — the demographics are, - and they're much younger. and so the recognition that you get from younger people, _ students and so on, who have started to even say, you know, _ come up and say, "this- is my main news source now," that is really gratifying. it also sort of adds - to the sort of responsibility of what you're doing. it's notjust something that you're sort of churning - out each and every day. it's sort of a supplement to other news that people will have got. l you've got to think, actually, - is this the main news source that people are hearing that day, and how should we calibrate| the product as a result? lewis, you're going to stay with us. but next on the media show we're going to talk about the washington post because, as you may have heard, there is an awful lot of pressure on its ceo and publisher, sir will lewis, former editor of the telegraph. now, this is a story that raises a whole raft of issues, not just about the future of the washington post, which, remember, is a newspaper which broke watergate. it has a celebrated history. it's now owned byjeff bezos. and notjust is this about the future of the post, but it raises questions about how news organisations are structured, aboutjournalism ethics and about the differences between us and uk journalism. and we're going to get some help on this story from vivian schiller, executive director of aspen digital at the aspen institute, also director of the scott trust, which owns the guardian, and a former ceo of national public radio. vivian, great to have you back on the media show. take us from the start here. when did will lewis come into the washington post? yeah, thanks. it's nice to be here. thanks for having me back. um, uh, will lewis was brought on as the new ceo of the washington post about six months ago. and, um, he did, uh, according to folks on the inside, he did everything during the first six months pretty much exactly right. he spent time getting to know the place. he met folks. he did what journalists love, which is actually read their stories and send them notes about what he liked. um, so he had built a lot of trust in the institution, an institution that, uh, as it turns out, was really sort of haemorrhaging, um, haemorrhaging money. um, uh, and he had a mandate to turn it around. um, and then about, uh, a few weeks ago, um, everything flipped, and, um, he took a number of actions that he said were, uh, necessary in order to put the washington post on the right footing. but that really, honestly turned the newsroom against him. um, first he, um, he created a new structure, as it turns out, for the washington post, which right now is divided into a main newsroom and, of course, the opinion section, which is separate, as often the case in us newspapers. and he decided he was going to create a third newsroom, which was going to be really about features and social media. he fired, uh, sally buzbee, who was the editor in chief, until again a few weeks ago after she turned down the job of being editor of the third newsroom. and he installed one temporary editor and then a permanent editor. uh, the temporary editor was matt murray, who was actually a very well—liked former editor of the wall street journal. that's the temporary editor. and then the permanent editorto come in, um, around election day is his old mate and colleague from the uk, uh, robert winnett. and that's when everything started to unravel. and one of the details here, which has got so much attention inside the washington post and outside, is that there is an allegation which will lewis denies, that he behaved inappropriately when discussing with sally buzbee a story that was going to reference him potentially. yes, that's exactly right. there are several, um, incidents that have happened in the last month and then a lot of other things from his past and from, um, robert winnett's past as well, that have emerged. but what you're referencing is, uh, because will lewis is part of the lawsuit by prince harry and others into the, um, news corp phone hacking, um, incidents, he's implicated in that. and the washington post was, uh, was going to report on developments on that story. and sally buzbee, as editor in chief, did what is perfectly appropriate, which is to give her boss, who doesn't control, of course, the editorial content, but give her boss a heads—up that he's about to be named in news coverage. that's perfectly appropriate in most cases. i've been in that exact same situation. you say, "ok, thanks for letting me know. good luck. "i look forward to reading the story." uh, but he actually questions her judgment in doing the story and expressed his disapproval. and on that, sorry to interrupt, a spokesperson for will lewis has denied that he pressured buzbee to quash the article. that's according to npr. katie, we're going to bring you in here as well to give us some context on some of the connections between what's happening in the washington post now and alleged events in the noughties. exactly. because will lewis... people here who followjournalism will have heard of him, of course, he's got a strong pedigree as a business and investigative journalist. he was later hired by rupert murdoch in 2010 as group general manager at news international, which was later renamed news uk. and when the phone hacking scandal broke, that vivian was talking about, he was working directly on the newspaper group's response, and for years since that story has emerged, there have been claims of a corporate cover up inside news international, with allegations that millions of company emails were wiped and that will lewis had a role in that. and both will lewis and news uk deny this entirely. lewis has repeatedly, as you said, denied any wrongdoing. and vivian was mentioning a court case there. that is a court case that prince harry... a civil court case. he's suing the newspaper group over what's called unlawful information gathering. he actually isn't being allowed by the judge to look at phone hacking cos he's out of time on that. and news uk is robustly defending those claims. but that case is going to go to trial next year. and it's those allegations that have been the focus of some attention in the us media, both the new york times and the washington post, both writing, as vivian was saying, about phone hacking in relation to those stories about will lewis. so that's the context. vivian, if people are listening and thinking, "well, ok, if you're a close follower of american media, i get why what's happening at the washington post matters." but what about the broader consequence here? why is this important beyond the way that the washington post operates? well, first of all, i mean, when we sayjust one newspaper, the washington post, um, the washington post is one of the most important newspapers in the country. so where the news... what happens to the washington post should matter a great deal for anyone who cares about, um, independent qualityjournalism, investigative journalists and holding the powerful to account. so that matters right there. but also would speak to some other trends that are happening in media. one is, you know, the fact that it is owned by a single billionaire owner. and we're talking about jeff bezos, of course, who has the sole power to hire and fire and what does this say about hisjudgment? it also gets at the very — and you alluded to this in the intro — the very different standards between quality american journalism, there's plenty of low—quality american...uh, media, um, and the difference between that and sort of the practice of tabloids in the uk, it's really shined a light on different... those different practices. and if i could just bring lewis goodall back in from the news agents here, i wonder how you view this. and in terms of the kind of differences between american journalists, how they see themselves, and britishjournalists, do you sense there's a difference, a distinction there? yeah, i've got some - friends of mine who work in american newspapers, brits _ and this is something they've always talked about when i've asked them l about the different cultures - of the newsrooms, both in sort of tv and papers, is that, um, - and particularly in newspapers, and it's cultural as well, _ which is there is a deep earnestness to american news certainlyj in newspapers, particularly those two behemoths. the washington post, the new york times, | all that sort of thing. and you contrast that - with certainly british tabloids, but also even, i think, even the character ofl someone like will lewis, - who someone compared to me, you know, there's a bit of a style - of almost a boris johnson about him, this sort of a very considered kind of cultivated character of sort - of not knowing very much - and all of these sorts of things. very, very capable journalist, of course, but it sits sort - of slightly uncomfortably, - perhaps, with the kind of patrician nature of the american newsroom, i particularly like the washington i post. so from what i can gather. from people there, it is that as much as anything, - which is the kind of genesis of this story or sits - at the heart of this story. i should mention thatjeff bezos has sent a note to all the staff at the washington post saying, "our standards at the post have always been very high. "that can't change, and it won't. "you have my full commitment on maintaining the quality, "ethics and standards we all believe in." now, at the beginning of the programme, we were talking about the reuters institute and its latest report, its digital news report, which it publishes annually. there are lots and lots of interesting details in it. one of the interesting details is not a surprise, that it's highlighting news avoidance. lewis, i guess this is a factor that is in the mind of all journalists these days. you're notjust competing for news consumers, you're trying to make sure people are consuming any type of news. yeah, look, i can sense this even, you know, travelling around - the country for the general election _ there is such a disconnect between the kind of, - i mean, there always is, but it feels particularly. acute at the moment _ between the sort of frenetic nature of the westminster conversation and the sort of, the air war, - and a complete kind of indifference that sort of one _ encounters with voters. and you can say that's always been the case, j and i'm sure to some extent it has, but it feels sort of— more profound this time i and more caustic, in a way. and i suppose if you think about it, i mean, sometimes when you're...j i sat in a focus group in whitby at the start of the week and, l you know, this womanjust said, you know, "it just feels - like it's been one thing. after the other endlessly. ijust need to... i sometimesjust feel. i can't even, i can't even watch the news any more." she used that exact phrase, - and if you think about it, i mean, going back from the, - you know, financial crisis to austerity to brexit - to the pandemic to partygate to liz truss and the self—imposed financial crisis, it has been - unusually relentless in terms of the news agenda, - which has at times been great for news consumption. - | but one feels that it has reachedj a point where you can completely understand news consumers simply wanting to switch off. _ nick hilton from podot, just to bring you in on that. it's been a direction of travel, as lewis says, it's been miserable in terms of news for quite some time, wars and everything. um, but do you see it as part of this wider trend? and how did you read the reuters report when it came to that? i think what we're seeing is sort of the collapse of all these linear channels, meaning that people are having to much more proactively seek out their news. it's something we see in podcasting, where basically our audience already have passed the threshold of having downloaded a podcast app, gone out and found out, discovered the existence of this podcast, sorted out, downloaded it. you know, at that point they have to be really engaged with it. and before, when we had, you know, big linear audiences on tv, on radio, i mean, there are still big linear audiences, but, you know, they're ever—diminishing and, you know, the death of free newspapers on the tube, you know, the collapsing, ever—collapsing sales of newspapers, it just means that we're entering this phase where you have to be so proactive about news. i deleted twitter and i now don't get any news. you know, i now have no idea what's going on because i was so reliant on social media and that opt—in, that sort of constant news cycle, the constant, you know, getting it every... lewis is going to come in, but are you feeling tempted to come back? if you're missing out on these stories, are you tempted to put it back? no, i completely deleted my account. it's gone? it's gone forever. very wise. it's like everything else| and so much of the rest of the media, isn't it? it is the hollowing| out of the middle. it is... it's... there are lots of places _ where you can get news fragments. twitter is somewhere like that. and there are... and, you know, podcasting i as we've been talking about, is a beneficiary of it. there is greater and greater kind of, i don't want to say niche - because it isn't in terms . of podcasting, but greater and greater demand for sort of, - let's say, high—end news consumers who want that kind of. really extended political conversation and analysis. the challenge we all know that news providers are finding is trying - to find those middle products that go to a mass audience. _ and this news kind of weariness is feeding into that decline. - vivian, if i could bring you in from the states, what's the american perspective on this when it comes to news avoidance? are people, you know, is it the same there? yeah. it's been a rising trend, um, particularly among young people, but notjust among young people. and, of course, just the fragmentation of media consumption, um, just exacerbates that, frankly, people are looking for information from less—than—reliable sources and avoiding a lot of traditional news in general. so there's a whole bunch of trends that are converging at one place, which is not so good for an informed electorate. yes, i was going to say, what do you think news avoidance means for democracy? you've got a big election coming up very soon. nothing good. i mean, it means people are listening to, uh, others in their own tribe, so to speak. um, and there are many tribes and, um, not being exposed to alternative points of view, not being exposed necessarily to evidence—based reality, and, um, that is not good for, um, for democracy especially in election year. and it's notjust sort of left, right. it's all kinds of issues. the, you know, israel—gaza situation, i think, has made that worse. it's just... it's very troubling. i want to ask you, because i know that you're quite big on x, which was twitter. would you ever consider deleting it? ican imagine... i think you can imagine deleting any social media for a, for a while. i do use it quite a lot. i turn it off when i go on holiday. sometimes delete it, but then it does come straight back on when i go to work. at the moment, no, not during an election. i'm using it quite a lot. but you never know. you never do. at the moment i'm going to keep it. you're going to keep it? absolutely. and... that's it, right? that is it. thank you very much indeed for watching. from me and from katie, bye—bye. bye. and if you'd like to hear a longer version of today's show, search "bbc the media show" wherever you get your bbc podcasts. hello. the next few days look set to bring the warmest weather of the summer so far. 2a celsius was our top temperature on saturday, but over the next few days, as this warm and rather humid air surges northwards, we can expect higher temperatures than that, perhaps into the high 20s celsius. some good spells of sunshine, but not necessarily clear blue skies all the time. there will be some areas of cloud. indeed, on sunday mornings, some areas of cloud, mist and murk for parts of western england and wales, particularly over some of the hills and around some of the coasts. we'll keep some patches of cloud through the day on sunday. sea breezes developing around some of the coasts. northern ireland having a nice—looking day, spells of sunshine. similar story for scotland, although a little bit breezy in the western isles — 16 celsius for stornoway, but more generally 19 to 25 celsius, a very warm—feeling day. and quite a warm night, actually, sunday night into monday. still some areas of cloud, a bit of mist and murk here and there, but those temperatures in the centre of london, no lower than 15 degrees, maybe getting down to ten in aberdeen and glasgow and in newcastle. but with this area of high pressure in charge for monday, it's going to be mainly dry and actually even warmer. this frontal system out to the west — we'll have to keep an eye on that — will start to bring a little bit more cloud, i think, into parts of northern ireland and western scotland with just a small chance for a shower. but elsewhere, some spells of sunshine, a bit of patchy cloud at times. but look at the temperatures — 2a for parts of northern ireland, 26 in northern scotland, across england and wales, widely into the mid—20s, 27 or 28 across the south—east corner. now through monday night into tuesday, that weather front in the west will start to make inroads — more cloud, perhaps some outbreaks of rain across northern ireland, parts of scotland, maybe into the north of england as well. so here a little bit cooler for tuesday, but further south and east, if anything, those temperatures climbing further, 28, perhaps 29 celsius. now, the big uncertainty in our weather story is about how quickly things will change, because it looks like our area of high pressure will loosen its grip, fronts pushing in from the west, low pressure drifting up from the south. one or both of those features will bring something more unsettled and a little bit cooler by the end of the week, but there is huge uncertainty about how quickly that change will take place and before it does some very warm weather on the way. live from washington. this is bbc news. the israeli military has admitted its forces violated protocol in strapping a wounded palestinian to the front of theirjeep during a raid. ukraine's president has appealed for more help to counter russian glide bombs, after another attack on the city of kharkiv. and we take a closer look at the gang violence in haiti that's forced over 500,000 people to flee their homes. i'm helena humphrey. good to have you with us. we begin in the middle east, where israel is responding to this footage from the occupied west bank. video has been shared online of a palestinian man, strapped to the front of an israeli military vehicle as it drives throuthenin. the man is injured — his family said he had been shot by israeli forces. the idf said the incident was — quote — "in violation of orders and standard operating procedures" and is being investigated. in gaza, at least 120 civilians have been killed in israeli raids on several neighborhoods over the last 48 hours, according to the hamas—run health ministry. officials say israeli air strikes on the al—sharti refugee camp on saturday killed at least 38 people. israel's military said its fighter jets struck two hamas military infrastructure sites in the area. meanwhile, the european union's foreign affairs chief,

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