discounts— the summer of 2020, restaurant discounts offered, some people suggesting that that has led to an increase _ suggesting that that has led to an increase in infections. rishi sunak was the _ increase in infections. rishi sunak was the key— increase in infections. rishi sunak was the key architect of that. there will be _ was the key architect of that. there will be questions to mark sedwill ahout— will be questions to mark sedwill about that. there has also been some suggestion— about that. there has also been some suggestion that people around government were referring to the treasury — government were referring to the treasury led by rishi sunak as the denth— treasury led by rishi sunak as the death squad, the pro—death squad because _ death squad, the pro—death squad because they were pushing very hard to protect _ because they were pushing very hard to protect the economy, perhaps at the expense of health. perhaps those around _ the expense of health. perhaps those around rishi sunak would argue that was his— around rishi sunak would argue that was hisiob, — around rishi sunak would argue that was hisjob, as chancellor you are supposed — was hisjob, as chancellor you are supposed to try and protect the interests — supposed to try and protect the interests of the economy. lots of interesting things to watch out for. going _ interesting things to watch out for. going back— interesting things to watch out for. going back to some of those text exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i read _ exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i read out _ exchanges, we had one yesterday, if i read out some of this, simon case, who was— i read out some of this, simon case, who was the — i read out some of this, simon case, who was the permanent secretary in downing _ who was the permanent secretary in downing street at the time, now cabinet — downing street at the time, now cabinet secretary, so in thatjob mark— cabinet secretary, so in thatjob mark sedwill held. he cabinet secretary, so in that “ob mark sedwill held. , . . mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes- he was — mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically _ mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically saying _ mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically saying to - mark sedwill held. he succeeded him. yes. he was basically saying to mark | yes. he was basically saying to mark sedwiii. _ yes. he was basically saying to mark sedwill, look, "i've never seen a tlunch— sedwill, look, "i've never seen a bunch of— sedwill, look, "i've never seen a bunch of people less well—equipped to run— bunch of people less well—equipped to run a _ bunch of people less well—equipped to run a country. mark sedwill saying — to run a country. mark sedwill saying it — to run a country. mark sedwill saying it is _ to run a country. mark sedwill saying it is hard to ask people to n1arch— saying it is hard to ask people to march to — saying it is hard to ask people to march to the sound of gunfire if they— march to the sound of gunfire if they are — march to the sound of gunfire if they are shot in the mac. once again. — they are shot in the mac. once again, speaking to this pretty terrible — again, speaking to this pretty terrible culture downing street, pressurised environment, dealing with a _ pressurised environment, dealing with a difficult set of circumstances. but what baroness hatiett _ circumstances. but what baroness hallett said she was looking out for was how _ hallett said she was looking out for was how that culture led to the decisions — was how that culture led to the decisions that have been made and perhaps— decisions that have been made and perhaps how it led to something is being _ perhaps how it led to something is being overlooked as a result. during this inuui being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com _ being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com important _ being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com important to - being overlooked as a result. during this inquiry com important to keep l this inquiry com important to keep that note of hindsight, and when some of the civil servants were talking about chickenpox, coronavirus being akin to chickenpox, take yourself back to february, and we had a lot of that in the inquiry yesterday. at the time there was potentially what has been described as optimism bias, but actually in essence there was a sense of let's not panic, to make sure that we know this is really serious. it's very easy to look back on some of these messages and think that they are terribly significant in view of what happened after that. and of course, that is the challenge that rishi sunak and his team now will have to still face.— will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look _ will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to _ will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to the _ will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to the future, - will have to still face. rishi sunak wants to look to the future, he i wants to look to the future, he doesn't — wants to look to the future, he doesn't want to have to keep going back over— doesn't want to have to keep going back over these things that happened in the _ back over these things that happened in the past _ back over these things that happened in the past. he was speaking in the commons — in the past. he was speaking in the commons yesterday after the king's speech— commons yesterday after the king's speech delivered by king charles, he talked _ speech delivered by king charles, he talked a _ speech delivered by king charles, he talked a lot about change. but he cannot _ talked a lot about change. but he cannot really get away from the baggage the conservatives have had over the _ baggage the conservatives have had over the years in office. we baggage the conservatives have had over the years in office.— over the years in office. we can now listen to the — over the years in office. we can now listen to the inquiry _ over the years in office. we can now listen to the inquiry getting - over the years in office. we can now listen to the inquiry getting under i listen to the inquiry getting under way. listen to the inquiry getting under wa . [w ., listen to the inquiry getting under wa. 'f~ .,~ , listen to the inquiry getting under 'f~ .,~ , ':: way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and ou way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have _ way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have provided _ way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have provided the - way. dated 18th of august, 225290, and you have provided the usual - and you have provided the usual declaration. i think you provided a witness statement for module one as well for which we must thank you. correct. i well for which we must thank you. correct. ., ., ., ,~' well for which we must thank you. correct. ., ., ., , ., well for which we must thank you. correct. ., ., ., y., , correct. i want to ask you first about the _ correct. i want to ask you first about the system _ correct. i want to ask you first about the system by - correct. i want to ask you first about the system by which - correct. i want to ask you first| about the system by which you correct. i want to ask you first - about the system by which you were provided with material to enable you to provide the witness statement. i think you were provided with a good many documents buying your legal advisers and by the persons responsible for assisting the inquiry with the provision of evidence. you haven't had access to or sought to replicate all the material which you would have seen during your lengthy and impressive career to do with covid? ihla during your lengthy and impressive career to do with covid?— during your lengthy and impressive career to do with covid? no i've had access to a — career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range _ career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range of— career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range of material. - career to do with covid? no i've had access to a range of material. i - access to a range of material. i think there was something like 2 million documents that referred to the cabinet secretary during the covid period. so obviously we had to try and identify the crucial ones, cabinet minutes, e—mails and so on, andi cabinet minutes, e—mails and so on, and i think as you heard, mr keith and i think as you heard, mr keith and other evidence sessions, the record—keeping and access to records has been troublesome. you record-keeping and access to records has been troublesome.— record-keeping and access to records has been troublesome. you no longer have our has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile _ has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile phone _ has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile phone from - has been troublesome. you no longer have your mobile phone from the - has been troublesome. you no longer| have your mobile phone from the time when you were cabinet secretary and dealing with the coronavirus crisis. is it correct that the messages that would have been on your phone at that time were not backed up, they would have been deleted? was that part of a normal policy?— part of a normal policy? that's correct. essentially, _ part of a normal policy? that's correct. essentially, really, . part of a normal policy? that's correct. essentially, really, as| correct. essentially, really, as national security adviser i would regularly clean my phone, i would usually come a fair trip in which i'd been using it where they might have been an espionage threat it would generally be cleaned and rebooted, for example. and so i didn't have access to any whatsapps or other messages from my end essentially after i left office. but ou have essentially after i left office. but you have been — essentially after i left office. but you have been provided with some whatsapp material relating to conversations to which you were party because the record of those conversations has been retained by the other person's team you are speaking to. the other person's team you are speaking to-_ the other person's team you are speaking to.- you - the other person's team you are speaking to.- you didn't| the other person's team you are - speaking to.- you didn't keep speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a rivate speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the time _ speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the time but - speaking to. indeed. you didn't keep a private diary at the time but as - a private diary at the time but as cabinet secretary you did of course keep a notebook which recorded notes of formal meetings, and that of course would have been retained by the government.— course would have been retained by the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile _ the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of _ the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of some _ the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of some of- the government. that's correct and i think a facsimile of some of the - think a facsimile of some of the relevant passages has been provided to the inquiry. relevant passages has been provided to the inquiry-— to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turnin: to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to — to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your— to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your career— to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your career and - to the inquiry. indeed. thank you. turning to your career and your i turning to your career and your professional background, you served in the foreign and commonwealth office for many years from 1989 — 2013 during which time you were notably her majesty's ambassador and then nato senior civilian representative in afghanistan. correct. ., ., correct. you are then political director of — correct. you are then political director of the _ correct. you are then political director of the foreign - correct. you are then political director of the foreign and . director of the foreign and commonwealth office. but you became the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013. the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013-— the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013.- under- the permanent secretary to the home office in 2013.- under then i office in 2013. correct. under then home secretary — office in 2013. correct. under then home secretary theresa _ office in 2013. correct. under then home secretary theresa may? i office in 2013. correct. under then i home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked _ home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for— home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for her— home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for her and - home secretary theresa may? that's correct. i worked for her and then i correct. i worked for her and then after she became prime minister amber rudd was then home secretary for the remainder of my period. but ou then for the remainder of my period. but you then became national security adviser in 2017?— you then became national security adviser in 2017?- was i you then became national security adviser in 2017?- was that | adviser in 2017? correct. was that under theresa _ adviser in 2017? correct. was that under theresa may's _ adviser in 2017? correct. was that i under theresa may's administration? yes. ., g :: ' j~ under theresa may's administration? yes. ., , ::'j~ under theresa may's administration? yes. ., g ::'j~ yes. from june 2018, did you become actin: yes. from june 2018, did you become acting cabinet — yes. from june 2018, did you become acting cabinet secretary? _ yes. from june 2018, did you become acting cabinet secretary? that's i acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when _ acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when was _ acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when was that - acting cabinet secretary? that's correct. when was that made i correct. when was that made permanent? _ correct. when was that made permanent? in _ correct. when was that made permanent? in october i correct. when was that made | permanent? in october 2018, correct. when was that made i permanent? in october 2018, my predecessor — permanent? in october 2018, my predecessor jeremy _ permanent? in october 2018, my predecessorjeremy hayward i permanent? in october 2018, my| predecessorjeremy hayward took predecessorjeremy hayward took medical leave injune, i was asked to step in. tragically, he did not recover and had to retire on medical grounds that died shortly afterwards in october and the prime minister asked me to as cabinet secretary, as you say, confirmed formally thereafter.— you say, confirmed formally thereafter. , , ., thereafter. did you become the head ofthe thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service _ thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service and _ thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service and was _ thereafter. did you become the head of the civil service and was that i of the civil service and was that combination of roles a long—standing convention? combination of roles a long-standing convention? , combination of roles a long-standing convention?— convention? yes. there had been separate. — convention? yes. there had been separate. i— convention? yes. there had been separate, i think— convention? yes. there had been separate, i think in _ convention? yes. there had been separate, i think in the _ convention? yes. there had been separate, i think in the 1970s, i separate, i think in the 19705, really since the mid—805 they had been combined. there was a brief period after lord o'donnell stepped down as cabinet secretary, head of the civil service and indeed permanent secretary at the cabinet office when those three roles were split and lord kerslake, the late lord kerslake, took over as the head of the civil service for a couple of years. jeremy hayward, lord hayward, as cabinet secretary, and then when lord kerslake retired jeremy hayward recombined the two rolls of cabinet secretary and head of the civil service and i succeeded him in those. ., . service and i succeeded him in those. ., ,, ., �*, , those. lord siddle, that's very helful. those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could _ those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i— those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask _ those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask you i those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask you to i those. lord siddle, that's very helpful. could i ask you to go | those. lord siddle, that's very| helpful. could i ask you to go a little bit slower, please. our stenographer who was working remotely could find it difficult to keep up with that speed. the cabinet secretary is head of the cabinet secretariat, by virtue of his or her role is right at the top, at the apex of the civil service? correct. is the apex of the civil service? correct. is the role _ apex of the civil service? correct. is the role of— apex of the civil service? correct. is the role of the _ apex of the civil service? correct. is the role of the cabinet - apex of the civil service? correct. | is the role of the cabinet secretary one that is set down in writing, is it constitutionally defined? or is the role of the cabinet secretary, whoever he or she may be, rather more an organic one, something that changes over time according to the prime minister of the day might be? it is written down in the cabinet manual which is essentially a codification of many of the procedures of government. the formal role is as secretary of the cabinet, in other words the person who is responsible for the proceedings of cabinet, that the minutes are properly recorded. but in practice, you are absolutely right, mr keith, the role is organic and the cabinet secretary balances a relationship with the prime minister, a relationship with cabinet, a relationship with cabinet, a relationship with cabinet, a relationship with the permanent secretaries, and indeed a relationship with the palace, and one has to try and keep all of those relationships in balance and in good health. this relationships in balance and in good health. �* , . , , relationships in balance and in good health. . , . , , ., relationships in balance and in good health. a , ., ., health. as well as being head of the civil service — health. as well as being head of the civil service and _ health. as well as being head of the civil service and therefore _ civil service and therefore responsible for it, and as well as, is this correct, has caring response ability for ensuring the operations in a general sense of the cabinet office and its role in the centre of government and the role that it performs of liaising with other government departments, to use a word we have heard a lot, synthesising the strategy, policy and operational facets of government?— and operational facets of government? and operational facets of rovernment? . �*, . government? that's correct. the cabinet office _ government? that's correct. the cabinet office essentially, i i government? that's correct. the cabinet office essentially, i willl cabinet office essentially, i will simplify, is really into macro groupings. there are several thousand people in the cabinet office. most of that group are essentially performing the role of what one might describe as the civil service department responsible for the overall management of the civil service central functions, the overall management of the civil service centralfunctions, hr, service central functions, hr, digital and service centralfunctions, hr, digital and so on. and that is overseen by the permanent secretary at the cabinet office who, in my time, was first chief executive and then the chief operating officer for then the chief operating officer for the civil service. the direct responsibility really of the cabinet secretary is for the cabinet secretariat. of course as cabinet secretary one oversees all of it, that's a few hundred people essentially supporting the functions of cabinet and of the prime minister. of cabinet and of the prime minister-— of cabinet and of the prime minister. . ., ., .,, minister. are two of the most important _ minister. are two of the most important functions _ minister. are two of the most important functions of - minister. are two of the most important functions of the i minister. are two of the most i important functions of the cabinet secretary to advise the prime minister on the machinery of government? how that process at the very highest level works. and secondly, to give advice on the appointment of ministers? that's correct, appointment of ministers? that's correct. mr _ appointment of ministers? that's correct, mr keith. _ appointment of ministers? that's correct, mr keith. probably i appointment of ministers? that's correct, mr keith. probably more| appointment of ministers? that's i correct, mr keith. probably more the first. the cabinet secretary would typically provide the prime minister with formal advice on machinery of government, whether different departments might be reorganised because prime ministers will make changes to the departmental structure, cabinet committees and so on. the prime minister in the end makes the decision on a range of advice, notjust from the cabinet secretary, about whom to appoint as ministers and so on. it would be rare for a cabinet secretary, for example, at the beginning of a government or in a reshuffle to say to a prime minister, next should go to a prime minister, next should go to white department, that's not to be how it would be. it would be more the case the prime minister would have a view and would perhaps ask the cabinet secretary's advice, or check whether there were any obstacle to a particular candidate being put in a cabinetjob. is obstacle to a particular candidate being put in a cabinet job. being put in a cabinet 'ob. is there any convention i being put in a cabinet 'ob. is there any convention or— being put in a cabinet job. is there any convention or long-standing i any convention or long—standing principle governing the confidentiality of the conversations between a cabinet secretary and prime minister over such matters? indeed. you put it very well. these have always been entirely private conversations. there might be other advisors of the prime minister in such conversations. it is fundamentally for the prime minister tojudge. but if fundamentally for the prime minister to judge. but if there were a delicate matter about, for example, the conduct or competence of one of the conduct or competence of one of the cabinet ministers, for example, that would normally be a private conversation between the cabinet secretary and the prime minister, or potentially the deputy cabinet secretary responsible for propriety and ethics who might be included in that as well. and ethics who might be included in that as well-— that as well. presumably back invention which _ that as well. presumably back invention which governs i that as well. presumably back invention which governs the i that as well. presumably back- invention which governs the specific conversation between the cabinet secretary and prime minister in no way precludes civil servants special advisers, other people, talking between themselves and with others, perhaps even the press, about the merits of the point of particular ministers or their enforced resignation or sacking? indeed, mr keith. it's speculation _ resignation or sacking? indeed, mr keith. it's speculation about i keith. it's speculation about cabinet reshuffles etc, which is the lifeblood of much commentary on government. and of course, in the end the prime minister is entitled to take advice from any source, formal or informal, about whom to appoint to the cabinet.— formal or informal, about whom to appoint to the cabinet. coming back to our appoint to the cabinet. coming back to your performance _ appoint to the cabinet. coming back to your performance of _ appoint to the cabinet. coming back to your performance of the - appoint to the cabinet. coming back to your performance of the dual i appoint to the cabinet. coming backj to your performance of the dual role of national security adviser and cabinet secretary, did that give rise to any concerns on your part as to your personal capacity to be able to your personal capacity to be able to fulfil both demanding roles? naturally, there was a question of bandwidth. but that would be true of either of these jobs in any event, in either of thosejobs either of these jobs in any event, in either of those jobs one is sitting at the heart of a team, and so in order to be able to perform that i delegated even more functions than i might have done otherwise, for example, as national security advisor to several of the key relationships with european allies i delegated to the prime minister's international affairs adviser. it was never intended to be a permanent arrangement. it seemed appropriate at the time and of course one is only replicating the span of responsibilities of the prime minister who covers both sets of issues. in minister who covers both sets of issues. , . ., , issues. in his evidence to this in corrie, issues. in his evidence to this in corrie. mr _ issues. in his evidence to this in corrie, mr cummings _ issues. in his evidence to this in corrie, mr cummings said i issues. in his evidence to this in corrie, mr cummings said you i issues. in his evidence to this in i corrie, mr cummings said you had, at one point, it is unclear when, expressed to him doubts about the wisdom of the commonest of the cabinet secretary's job and the national security adviser's job —— evidence to this inquiry. did you express concerns to him about the wisdom of such a practice? i express concerns to him about the wisdom of such a practice?- wisdom of such a practice? i don't recall it in — wisdom of such a practice? i don't recall it in quite _ wisdom of such a practice? i don't recall it in quite those _ wisdom of such a practice? i don't recall it in quite those terms. i recall it in quite those terms. certainly as i said a moment ago it was not intended to be a permanent arrangement and i was conscious that when i stepped down it would almost certainly be the case that the jobs would be split again. it arose really because of the particular and tragic circumstances in which i had taken over as cabinet secretary. i think i may well have pointed out to mr cummings that my background had equipped me for being national security adviser and cabinet secretary was not a role to which i had ever aspired. the secretary was not a role to which i had ever aspired.— secretary was not a role to which i had ever aspired. the split, all the re-emerged _ had ever aspired. the split, all the re-emerged split _ had ever aspired. the split, all the re-emerged split following - had ever aspired. the split, all the re-emerged split following your i re—emerged split following your departure may indicate, lord sedwill, the combination of the jobs was not a wise one. i sedwill, the combination of the “obs was not a wise one.i was not a wise one. i think it made sense in the _ was not a wise one. i think it made sense in the circumstances - was not a wise one. i think it made sense in the circumstances of- was not a wise one. i think it made sense in the circumstances of the l sense in the circumstances of the time. the government of both theresa may and in the first phase of boris johnson were going through the most intense period of the brexit negotiations. there were elements of national security involved in that. as i said, it was never intended to be a permanent arrangement. that was clear with theresa may when she appointed me as cabinet secretary, and therefore it wasn't a question of whether the jobs would be split, it was a question of when. share it was a question of when. are turnin: it was a question of when. are turning to _ it was a question of when. are turning to focus _ it was a question of when. are turning to focus a _ it was a question of when. are turning to focus a little more on the role of cabinet, is the cabinet the role of cabinet, is the cabinet the ultimate decision—making body in his majesty's government? yes. his majesty's government? yes, correct. his majesty's government? yes, correct- but _ his majesty's government? yes, correct. but does _ his majesty's government? yes, correct. but does it _ his majesty's government? yes, correct. but does it follow i his majesty's government? yes, correct. but does it follow from | correct. but does it follow from that that cabinet _ correct. but does it follow from that that cabinet must - correct. but does it follow from that that cabinet must decide, l correct. but does it follow from i that that cabinet must decide, or take, all decisions that are of significance or particular import? it's a matter ofjudgment. and so there are cabinet committees which also have that authority, collective responsibility also applies. the national security council, for example, is one such committee. it is a matter ofjudgment for the is a matter of judgment for the prime is a matter ofjudgment for the prime minister and the cabinet secretary which decisions should be taken at which level. so, if i may, just to give a different example, when the uk participated in military action after the use of chemical weapons in syria in 2018 with the us and france, although that would normally have been a decision for the national security council, jeremy hayward and i concluded, for reasons which probably needed to detain us, that it was of such significance relating to parliamentary scrutiny and so on and that it should be taken by the whole cabinet. ., , ,., ., that it should be taken by the whole cabinet. ., , ., ., cabinet. covid esson covid oh were two cabinet — cabinet. covid esson covid oh were two cabinet committees. _ cabinet. covid esson covid oh were two cabinet committees. the i two cabinet committees. the institution of which you advised uponin institution of which you advised upon in may of 2020. with a full cabinet committees and therefore empowered to take decisions in the same way that the full cabinet may have been? in same way that the full cabinet may have been?— same way that the full cabinet may have been? ,., ., ., have been? in the same without other cabinet would — have been? in the same without other cabinet would be _ have been? in the same without other cabinet would be -- _ have been? in the same without other cabinet would be -- cabinet _ cabinet would be —— cabinet committee would be. as you have mentioned, cabinet overall is the ultimate decision—making body but delegates, formerly delegates certain areas to cabinet committees and covid s and covid o certain areas to cabinet committees and covid s and covid 0 had that status. i and covid s and covid 0 had that status. . r' and covid s and covid 0 had that status. . w , .. , and covid s and covid 0 had that status. . , , ., , and covid s and covid 0 had that status. , ., ,, , status. i ask because only yesterday in fact evidence _ status. i ask because only yesterday in fact evidence was _ status. i ask because only yesterday in fact evidence was given _ status. i ask because only yesterday in fact evidence was given to - status. i ask because only yesterday in fact evidence was given to the i in fact evidence was given to the inquiry in effect in relation to the second national lockdown, ultimately the decision to impose that lockdown was taken by a meeting of tambe in november 2020. constitutionally, was that an appropriate position to be in by virtue of the fact that as a cabinet committee it was vested with the full power and authority of the cabinet to make a decision as such? that was after my time, so without knowing the full detail, constitutionally, assuming the prime minister and cabinet secretary content, then a cabinet committee can take decisions on behalf of cabinet and full collective responsibility etc applies. so, constitutionally appropriate, matter of judgment constitutionally appropriate, matter ofjudgment as to whether it was the right forum. ofjudgment as to whether it was the ri . ht forum. . ofjudgment as to whether it was the riaht forum. . .,, , right forum. evidence has been given to the inquiry — right forum. evidence has been given to the inquiry that _ right forum. evidence has been given to the inquiry that throughout - right forum. evidence has been given to the inquiry that throughout 2020, | to the inquiry that throughout 2020, perhaps less so in 2021, there was a degree to which cabinet authority and cabinet governance was circumvented by virtue of important decisions being taken out with cabinet and also, i think, a process by which the accountability of cabinet to parliament and to the people was undermined by virtue of the attacks made on cabinet, the way in which described, the way in which ministers were described. would you agree that during the latter time of your role as cabinet secretary, cabinet governance was undermined to a degree? cabinet governance was undermined to a decree?�* ., . ., cabinet governance was undermined to adeiree?�* ., ., cabinet governance was undermined to aderree?�* ., ., ,, a degree? attacks of that kind clearly undermine _ a degree? attacks of that kind clearly undermine public- a degree? attacks of that kind i clearly undermine public confidence in cabinet governance. actually, in terms of the formal procedures, the key decisions were taken, either in cabinet or in the uk cobra with the devolved first minister's and their teams in attendance. so i think in terms of formal decisions the constitutional decision, we sought to follow it. i know, mr keith, you will probably want to come back to the relationship between the dialectic within number 10 and the formal procedures, so i won't dwell upon it now. formal procedures, so i won't dwell upon it "ow-— formal procedures, so i won't dwell upon it now. yes. but i certainly souuht upon it now. yes. but i certainly sought to _ upon it now. yes. but i certainly sought to ensure _ upon it now. yes. but i certainly sought to ensure that _ upon it now. yes. but i certainly sought to ensure that formal decisions were taken by ministerial groups of the appropriate nature, properly minuted and proper reactions and i think the procedure was followed. is reactions and i think the procedure was followed.— was followed. is cobra and other such committee, _ was followed. is cobra and other such committee, as _ was followed. is cobra and other such committee, as with - was followed. is cobra and other| such committee, as with covid-s was followed. is cobra and other- such committee, as with covid-s and such committee, as with covid—s and covid—0 in which full authority is vested to make decisions of this type? at vested to make decisions of this e? �* , ., ., , ., vested to make decisions of this e?�* , ., , , not type? a ministerial cobra, yes. not an official is — type? a ministerial cobra, yes. not an official is cobra? _ type? a ministerial cobra, yes. not an official is cobra? not _ type? a ministerial cobra, yes. not an official is cobra? not an - an official is cobra? not an official cobra, _ an official is cobra? not an official cobra, they - an official is cobra? not an official cobra, they can - an official is cobra? not an| official cobra, they can take decisions that have been remitted to the non—operational matters. policy decisions requiring ministerial ascent would be taken in a ministerial leaf shared cobra. there was, nevertheless, _ ministerial leaf shared cobra. there was, nevertheless, a _ ministerial leaf shared cobra. there was, nevertheless, a perpetual- was, nevertheless, a perpetual tension between number 10 and cabinet, was not, in relation to where important decision—making took place and the degree to which matters might be debated and resolved within number 10 before being put to cabinet? i resolved within number 10 before being put to cabinet?— being put to cabinet? i wouldn't describe it _ being put to cabinet? i wouldn't describe it as _ being put to cabinet? i wouldn't describe it as a _ being put to cabinet? i wouldn't describe it as a tension - being put to cabinet? i wouldn't| describe it as a tension between them, in that cabinet was formally involved, but as you will have seen from some of my notes, minutes to the prime minister, i needed to remind him of the importance of involving his cabinet colleagues, jot notjust in the formal decision, but in the formulation of that decision. it is quite normalfor prime ministers, any minister, to talk to their own team here about a keyissue talk to their own team here about a key issue before they go into a formal decision—making body. in this case it was importantjust to remind the prime minister of the need to ensure there was space for his elected colleagues to be fully participative in those decisions. it would seem that the formality of the process —— was adhered to, why did you feel there was a need to speak to the prime minister whether there was in substance, in practice, cabinet was as engaged as it was required to be? fiat cabinet was as engaged as it was required to be?— required to be? pat and i think helen mcnamara _ required to be? pat and i think helen mcnamara mentioned . required to be? pat and i thinkj helen mcnamara mentioned in required to be? pat and i think - helen mcnamara mentioned in her evidence last week, a pattern had arisen really through the brexit period, partly because of cabinet leaks and the sensitivity of the negotiations where in that period ministers would go into a cabinet meeting having not had the chance to consider papers that we can beforehand, or with their advisors, but into a reading room beforehand in order to try and understand the papers and take their views into cabinet, there had clearly been unsatisfactory for many of those ministers in being able to take advice and formulate their own view. but i think that practice had, although we didn't have exactly that system during covid, that practice of the prime minister going into cabinet, particularly after the election, with a firm position of his own, that being set out at the start, constrained the candour of cabinet discussion. nevertheless, ou had cabinet discussion. nevertheless, you had concerns _ cabinet discussion. nevertheless, you had concerns that _ cabinet discussion. nevertheless, you had concerns that cabinet - cabinet discussion. nevertheless, | you had concerns that cabinet was not as fully participative, to use your words, as it should have been? correct. and as you will have seen, there are minutes to the prime minister where i remind him of the need for that.— minister where i remind him of the need for that. a . ., ., ., ~ , need for that. helen mcnamara makes a second point— need for that. helen mcnamara makes a second point in _ need for that. helen mcnamara makes a second point in this _ need for that. helen mcnamara makes a second point in this context - need for that. helen mcnamara makes a second point in this context to - a second point in this context to the effect that the full cabinet tends to be better at bringing a wider perspective, putting aside the democratic accountability of course vested in cabinet by virtue of being the cabinet of the government of majority, herview the cabinet of the government of majority, her view was that cabinet is rather more grounded in its perspective than perhaps, i don't mean this pejoratively, a cabal of officials and civil servants, advisers and the prime minister might be a number 10. would you agree with that suggestion? yes. might be a number10. would you agree with that suggestion? yes. one ofthe agree with that suggestion? yes. one of the points — agree with that suggestion? yes. one of the points i — agree with that suggestion? yes. one of the points i would _ agree with that suggestion? yes. one of the points i would remind - of the points i would remind officials of was that every minister, certainly every senior minister, certainly every senior minister, was also a constituency mp. and so they had essentially a ground truth from that experience that officials sitting in departments wouldn't have themselves and other personal exposure to the public, it is one of the strengths of our system, i think. sol public, it is one of the strengths of our system, i think. so i was always keen to encourage cabinet ministers they were notjust speaking from their departmental perspective but as constituency mps with the grounding in the views of the ordinary citizen. find the ordinary citizen. and particularly _ the ordinary citizen. and particularly because - the ordinary citizen. and particularly because this was a public health emergency with whole country, societal and economic consequences, that perspective, the perspective that cabinet could bring was of additional value?— was of additional value? indeed. secial was of additional value? indeed. special political _ was of additional value? indeed. special political advisers, - was of additional value? indeed. special political advisers, what l was of additional value? indeed. l special political advisers, what are they, spads? special political advisers, what are they. spads?_ special political advisers, what are the , spads? ., . ., they, spads? how much time do we have, mr keith? _ they, spads? how much time do we have, mr keith? special— they, spads? how much time do we have, mr keith? special advisers, i have, mr keith? specialadvisers, there have been special advisers back almost, i would guess, to lord george's time. but there are more of them and they are more prevalent across government in the modern era than was the case in the past. they are essentially personal appointees of ministers, they are formally appointed by the prime minister, but these are people who will bring political and communication support for senior ministers. some are, one might describe, a specialist advisers, there are one or two of those in number 10 now, i believe, and certainly we had some of those at the foreign office in my time there. but mostly they are people with a political alignment with the secretary of state and the government of the day who are providing them with personal media communications and political support. communications and political su ort. . communications and political suuort, ., , communications and political suuort_ . , , support. can i pause you there 'ust in terms of — support. can i pause you there 'ust in terms of the fi support. can i pause you there 'ust in terms of the basics? * support. can i pause you there 'ust in terms of the basics? do i support. can i pause you there just in terms of the basics? do they - in terms of the basics? do they exist in both number 10 and aligned departments, other government departments?— departments? yes, mr keith. in departments — departments? yes, mr keith. in departments there _ departments? yes, mr keith. in departments there would - departments? yes, mr keith. in i departments there would normally departments? yes, mr keith. in - departments there would normally be two or three, each secretary of state might have two or three. there are many more in number 10 and in numberio they are many more in number 10 and in number 10 they work are many more in number 10 and in numberio they work in are many more in number 10 and in number 10 they work in blended teams with officials and indeed experts who might be brought in. number 10 is rather different in that sense. are those teams the policy and communications teams to which he made reference in your statement? indeed. for example, the policy unit would have a mixture of special advisers, specialists and officials, and that dates back to the 1970s, that kind of structure. and and that dates back to the 1970s, that kind of structure.— that kind of structure. and our olitical that kind of structure. and our political advisers _ that kind of structure. and our political advisers expected - that kind of structure. and our political advisers expected to l political advisers expected to restrict themselves to advising on political and munication matters? or may their brief spread across wider fields? , . , . ., , fields? they are expected to bring the political _ fields? they are expected to bring the political and _ fields? they are expected to bring the political and communications. the political and communications media perspective to policy matters as well. they are not restricted in their advice. as well. they are not restricted in theiradvice. it as well. they are not restricted in their advice. it is that they bring that perspective, and most ministers, most secretaries of state, would want their special advisers in the room in a department, for example, when discussing major policy issues. the discussing ma'or policy issues. the abili to discussing major policy issues. the ability to bring perspective to policy matters cover is potentially a very wide area indeed. is there any governance or code or manual that defines the role of a political advisor or is it very much a matterfor the individual political advisor or is it very much a matter for the individual adviser and his or her minister?— a matter for the individual adviser and his or her minister? there is a secial and his or her minister? there is a special advisers _ and his or her minister? there is a special advisers code _ and his or her minister? there is a special advisers code and - and his or her minister? there is a special advisers code and it - special advisers code and it resembles but isn't identical to the civil service code. special advisers are specially appointed as temporary civil servants. that is how their employment contracts work. but rather as we were discussing earlier, there is an organic element to it and their role will depend on the department, on their personal relationship with the minister. a number 10, their personal relationship and authority with the prime minister. there are

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