so those doctors sat with you. they poured out their worries. did they talk about lucy letby? no, no. they talked actually at the time they didn't name anybody. what they talked about was in what they told when they contacted the chief constable, the fact that a nurse had been moved. they didn't actually name the nurse to me because i was at that meeting. i didn't have a lot of time because i had to make a decision on whether we were commencing an investigation or not. so i was focused on actually what does this mean medically? they told me that somebody had been moved and all the events had stopped. but i wasn't really drawn into that that much at that time. my first thoughts were as an sio, that if i had been doing something and somebody else had been moved, then i would stop as well. so, you know, i didn't get drawn into much about what that meant. i was more focused at that point on what has actually happened. so that's what our line of investigation was going to focus on initially. so what then led you from that point to lucy letby�*s door? how complicated was it? our primary aim was to decide we're going to start the investigation and then speak to the parents and break the news to them that we were, in fact, conducting an investigation and what we were focusing on. so my initial conversation with parents was that we are just... effectively my only promise to them at that point was we would use every available resource to us to answer the question of what, why and how and when happened to their child's cause, that collapse or cause that that sad death. and if we had to answer the question of by who, we would do that in the fullness of time. so the focus initially was on that. it was the medical gathering of the initial thoughts of the experts, then how we would draw together and then effectively try to reconstruct events from medical records and interviews and statements and nurses and staff and doctors. what had occurred as best could be remembered, and then overlay that with an analytical product using swipe data or any cctv or any information that would show the comings and goings. so we had to understand, first of all, what had happened to each child. and then at the time overlay who was there. but really, there in presence, notjust there, because they may sit on a screen somewhere typing away and they'd be there all the time, but really there. and then actually can we prove that they�* re really there with other information? so we had to pull all them three strands together which did in fact obviously lead us to the really sad realization that our expert believed that the babies had suffered, inflicted harm, and that that harm was obviously intentional. and then we were able to, in the early stages, establish that there is one person, lucy letby, who had been the only person, the only consistent presence by some distance. and then we were able to confirm a lot of that with some data we were able to obtain. so the analytical work to see what you've probably seen in court is a temporal analysis which shows the reducing figure of the other staff. and then that led us to the door of lucy letby in june 2018. can you talk to me about the significance in particular of the notes and the note that was shown in which she'd written i am evil, i did this. it's part of the picture. it's part of the evidence that we've served. and it goes it probably the only some way to understanding her does it really from a perspective because that's that's all we've got is what she's written. we know roughly when she wrote it because she said she wrote it after she'd been moved. for me, it's a significant piece of evidence. certainly, the jury have considered that evidence and rightly so, but evidentially on its own, it wouldn't mean anything. but when you overlay it with all of the evidence we've got of placement and times and eyewitnesses and medical evidence, then it's very damning. yeah. and it's as i say, from our perspective, the only insight into what she thinks of herself, which is. which is important. once you arrested lucy letby, you spent many hours interviewing her. searching her house? yes. what do you make of her? what do you make of what you found? that is clearly the person who keeps things. she kept, obviously medical records. she kept handover sheets. she kept electronic devices and photographs. she kept diaries. very detailed diaries and notes and pages of notes, which surprised me because lucy would have been aware that we were going to come and speak to her at some point. so it was surprising that when we did go and knock on her door and say, arrest her, we effectively invited her in with us, but in that first arrest to conduct a search and to see if there's any evidence that could take us in support of what we've seen or in support of her. and then to obtain evidence by questioning. because she is the one that could effectively, from our perspective in investigation, she's the one that could take it further than anyone else because she'd been there more than anyone else. so we were very keen to understand what she was going to say. but i was surprised that there was so much material and so much material quite graphic in its nature in what she wrote that was there, almost presented to us when we arrived. and what do you think it's told you about her character? i know the case hasn't had to go into motive, but you've spent time interviewing her and watching her in court as well. the evidence, what do you make of her? i think she's very emotionless. she doesn't respond to a typical human response that i would have expected. for example, we didn't see any sadness or any passion or anything more than, you know, an innocent person banging on the table, demanding that we should go and find the proper killer. or a sadness that when we explain the facts that an expert believes a baby's received inflicted harm, should have been in her care, and there was nothing from her that appeared to be affected by what was going on around her. she was just very clinical in her answers, so she was comfortable. she'd go through medical notes. she would talk to us. she was cooperative. she engaged. but she didn't...she didn't respond in any... there was no empathy or sympathy with what's going on at all. i mean, there are people who look at her and say there's no way she can have done this. it's circumstantial evidence. she looks as though butter wouldn't melt. it's not possible. well, yeah, absolutely. and that's a danger, isn't it, for us to all be drawn into that. you know, and it's an example to us all, really, of notjudging a book by its cover and asking the question at all times, you know, from the very beginning. and, you know, we've got to accept and understand the evidence in this case has been, i believe, significant and has taken us to understand that lucy letby is a killer. in terms of the evidence, the defence also said nobody saw lucy. do anything. this is circumstantial. yes. what do you say to answer that? you know, i've been experienced in investigating murder and suspicious deaths. it's very rarely an eyewitness event. and often we are relying on piecing things together. and in this case, we've done just that. so i'm not... it's not unexpected to us when this started building and the case started to look sinister that she hadn't been witnessed because if she had, then i'm quite sure we'd have known about it at the time. so it doesn't surprise me because the way she was operating was to gain the trust and then to deceive that trust. the trial has focused on a neat year period june tojune 2015 to 2016. but lucy letby worked at the hospital and elsewhere over a longer period. are you looking at other cases? yes, as expected. i'm sure the public would expect us to look at the entire footprint of lucy letby�*s career. there'd be parents would expect it, as with the communities of cheshire particularly have used the hospitals but wider. so we are committed to a thorough investigation. in the same vein that we've carried out already, all the way through lucy's placements at chester and at the liverpool women's hospital. we're at the early stages and we know how long it's taken. we are following the same pattern, so i don't believe it will take as long. but we have informed a number of parents already that we're investigating their child and they're being supported. one of the common themes of the defence argument is that nobody raised the alarm with the police directly early on if they felt harm was taking place. do you think that that is significant? should reform, is reform needed to ensure that people can talk directly to the police if they feel? ithink, you know, ithink we would welcome a review. i'm sure parents and families would welcome a review at the end of this. and for me, my duties to stay focused on the criminal investigation and all of the material that surrounds that. so i'm sure there will be a review of some kind and we'd welcome that to happen. that is detective superintendent paul hughes who led this investigation. he is talking about reviews and investigations and in fact not long after the conclusion of this trial earlier today the government announced that they would hold an independent inquiry into lucy letby�*s offending at the neonatal unit. it was something that the families have been pushing for. it was actually something that was reflected in many of the statements and reactions that we heard at the end of the trial. i think there really is a feeling, despite of course the evidence having heard that the discussion about the evidence that have been put forward, the medical evidence, the forensic evidence. the sheer volume of what the jury has actually sat through during the nine months or so of this trial. despite all of that now been in the public domain, having been considered by thejury in the public domain, having been considered by the jury and resulting in these convictions that we have been talking about today, guilty on seven counts of murder and attempting to murder six more babies. but there are still questions to be answered of course. the government's independent inquiry will attempt to do some of those. we heard also from places that lucy letby had also worked, for example the liverpool women's hospital issued a statement not long after the verdict because loopy —— lucy letby had been there for a brief period of time doing training placements. they said that they too were cooperating with the police and were cooperating with the police and were doing whatever was needed if this investigation were to widen out and look at lucy letby�*s whole nursing career and notjust the 12 month period that was covered by this trial. i think one of the most important reactions that we heard today was the police�*s family liaison officer who was speaking on behalf of the families involved in this trial. some of them bereaved families, some of them whose children survived lucy letby�*s offending but in some cases with life changing consequences. and janet moore stood here on the steps of manchester crown court and she read out a statement on behalf of all of those families of lucy letby�*s victims. i've been asked to read out a statement on behalf of all the families in this case. words cannot effectively explain how we are feeling at this moment in time. we are quite simply stunned. to lose a baby is a heartbreaking experience that no parent should ever have to go through. but to lose a baby or to have a baby harmed in these particular circumstances is unimaginable. over the past seven to eight years, we've had to go through a long, tortuous and emotional journey. from losing our precious newborns and grieving their loss, seeing our children who survived, some of whom are still suffering today, to being told years later that their death or collapse might be suspicious, nothing could prepare you for that news. today, justice has been served, and a nurse who should've been caring for our babies has been found guilty of harming them. but this justice will not take away from the extreme hurt, anger and distress that we've all had to experience. some families did not receive the verdict that they expected, and therefore it is a bittersweet result — we are heartbroken, devastated, angry and feel numb. we may never truly know why this happened. words cannot express our gratitude to the jury who've had to sit through 145 days of gruelling evidence which has led to today's verdict. we recognise that this has not been an easy task for them, and we will forever be grateful for their patience and resilience throughout this incredibly difficult process. the police investigation began in 2017, and we've been supported from the very beginning by a team of experienced and dedicated family liaison officers. we want to thank these officers for everything that they've done for us. medical experts, consultants, doctors and nursing staff have all given evidence at court, which at times has been extremely harrowing and distressing for us to listen to. however, we recognise the determination and commitment that each witness has shown in ensuring that the truth was told. we acknowledge that the evidence given by each of them has been key in securing today's verdict. one of the major questions surrounding this case is why would lucy letby do this? why are qualified and registered nurse, somebody who had chosen to enter a caring profession would then go on to murder and attempted murder davies in her care. we'rejoined now by dr naomi murphy, who is a consultant clinical forensic psychologist. doctor murphy, thank you forjoining us. i think one of the things that has come out of this trial, we have learnt so much about lucy letby�*s methods, about the medical impact that it had on the children. but one thing that is still missing is motivation. really nobody can say why she has done this. i motivation. really nobody can say why she has done this.— motivation. really nobody can say why she has done this. i think there are a number— why she has done this. i think there are a number of— why she has done this. i think there are a number of reasons _ why she has done this. i think there are a number of reasons why - why she has done this. i think there are a number of reasons why health care professionals might act out and kill. we have seen there has been a number of people have done this. i don't believe that the nhs culture creates that but i think people gravitate towards positions where they can abuse their power. we see that in other organisations. i think what are the two possible motives that stand out most clearly in this case is perhaps the need to be the most comforting and supportive nurse, kind of the saviour, which would confer special status. or possibly also envy of the family unit and a wish to destroy or damage to the parents. one of the things thatis to the parents. one of the things that is really striking in this particular case is the preoccupation with the families, being sought out on facebook and interactions with them. there are other reasons why health care professionals might kill, for example doctor shipman appears to have killed as an act of mercy. colin norris killed elderly people because he didn't like elderly people. but the salience of the interactions with the family seems to be quite striking in this case. �* , ., ., ., seems to be quite striking in this case. �* ., ., , seems to be quite striking in this case. �* , ., ., ., , ., case. and it is also again been a real threat _ case. and it is also again been a real threat of _ case. and it is also again been a real threat of what _ case. and it is also again been a real threat of what we _ case. and it is also again been a real threat of what we have - case. and it is also again been a | real threat of what we have seen case. and it is also again been a - real threat of what we have seen his disgust at court, the way that —— a real thread. this cloak of normality that she used, the way she use this to hide the crimes, the worst of crimes that she was carrying out and for so long, even when suspicion started to be raised people were saying well, lucy letby is nice, kind and caring. she wouldn't do this. is it unusual to be able to hide something so well? i this. is it unusual to be able to hide something so well? i have spent 20 ears hide something so well? i have spent 20 years working _ hide something so well? i have spent 20 years working with _ hide something so well? i have spent 20 years working with people - hide something so well? i have spent 20 years working with people who - 20 years working with people who have committed acts of murder and actually i don't find that all that surprising. i think psychologically healthier people do not kill. it is the act of somebody who is disturbed and typically what happens is there is a disconnect from the emotional self, so an inability to really connect at a deep level with their emotions. so it is not that surprising that somebody may appear to be presenting like nothing is wrong. which is not to say that there wouldn't be points where they would have been a break in that mask but i don't think it is that surprising she was able to hold it together at work. find surprising she was able to hold it together at work.— surprising she was able to hold it together at work. and what about, a . ain together at work. and what about, aaain a together at work. and what about, again a crucial— together at work. and what about, again a crucial part _ together at work. and what about, again a crucial part of _ together at work. and what about, again a crucial part of the - together at work. and what about, again a crucial part of the evidence were those notes that were found in her home, where she had written in very small scrawled writing, very tightly spaced on pieces of paper, lots of words, names of pets but also things like i am evil, i did this, help. what does this say about her state of mind? i this, help. what does this say about her state of mind?— her state of mind? i think with all the peeple _ her state of mind? i think with all the peeple i've — her state of mind? i think with all the people i've worked _ her state of mind? i think with all the people i've worked with - her state of mind? i think with all the people i've worked with no i her state of mind? i think with all. the people i've worked with no one ever truly wants to kill. even if there is a moment of a build—up to that, i think it doesn't sit comfortably with the person for the whole of the time. so i think clearly there was a part of lucy letby that regretted some of the actions but that was obviously clearly very shallow and very fleeting. one of the things that shocked me in the case was actually the closeness of the incidents to one another. so when people have killed on multiple occasions it is not unusual for people to kill and then go into a period of regret and remorse and a desire never to do it again before doing it again. it is quite hard to see that in lucy letby�*s case because there are so many incidents over a relatively short period. many incidents over a relatively short period-— many incidents over a relatively short period. and as you say, in some cases. — short period. and as you say, in some cases, particularly - short period. and as you say, in some cases, particularly with i some cases, particularly with the attempted murders, she made more than one attempt on a child's life in a single day. in some cases she tried and failed and came back and tried and failed and came back and tried again hours later. absolutely. one of the speculations _ tried again hours later. absolutely. one of the speculations that - tried again hours later. absolutely. one of the speculations that has i one of the speculations that has been around is has she experienced practitioners disorder, that idea that you would harm a child or yourself in order to get attention. but actually these children were often in a state of recovery, there was not a concern about whether they were going to survive. and the sense of going back repeatedly attacking the children suggests a degree of thrill and excitement about the act of killing. thrill and excitement about the act of killinu. ., ., ~ i. , of killing. doctor, thank you very much indeed _ of killing. doctor, thank you very much indeed for _ of killing. doctor, thank you very much indeed forjoining - of killing. doctor, thank you very much indeed forjoining us, - of killing. doctor, thank you very i much indeed forjoining us, doctor naomi murphy. just really looking at why lucy letby might have done this and that's something we have heard repeatedly throughout the trial, this of motive, of why somebody who would deliberately enter the caring profession and particularly looking after the smallest, the most vulnerable, the sickest patients and why she would then go on to murder and attempted murder those babies that she was supposed to be caring for. we also heard on the court steps today at the conclusion of the trial from the crown prosecution service. they of course put together that the prosecution case. they were responsible for securing these convictions. lucy letby was charged with 22 counts of murder and attempted murder. she was convicted of killing seven of the babies in her care, of attempting to kill six more. there were those six charges where the jury could not reach a verdict at all. they were a hung jury. the crown prosecution service will go away now and decide whether to bring retrial is essentially for those six remaining counts. there were also two counts in which lucy letby was acquitted, found not guilty of attempted murder. but have a listen now to pascaljones, she is a listen now to pascaljones, she is a senior prosecutor from the crown prosecution service, talk about the file of evidence that they put together and what they found out about lucy letby —— pascaljones. i was quite clear that there was no smoking gun. and that no evidence could be seen in a context of this. this is our our ace up our sleeve. there was no evidence like this. so it was really the constellation of these findings. all of that body of evidence has to be looked into the context of other evidence. parents gave very important and very powerful insight. particularly, you will have seen the mother of baby e who gave information that no doctor knew about. the evidence from letby�*s phone put events into context. it was live blogging of what life was like in the neonatal units. so putting this together with what was going on in the medical records, it provided quite a powerful overview of what was going on, and particularly when you put that into context with what the doctors say. child stable, all of a sudden crashes. that's not how it happens. there is normally a gradual pattern of deterioration when it's a natural illness. so these babies are monitored so doctors will pick up upon or nurses the saturations that go low, the cardiac rhythm that is not what is expected. so they will be able to adjust medication, treatment, ventilation as needed to bring them back. but when things took a turn for the worse, it was not possible for some of them to bring them back. and the doctors were absolutely puzzled by that. and similarly, the expert evidence was telling us, normally you should be able to resuscitate a baby. and the fact that they were not able to resuscitate them is a sign of something extremely sinister. conversely, the path to the recovery was also an aberration. sometimes babies had an extremely prompt recovery when it happened unexpectedly, and normally, when they have natural illnesses, the path to recovery will be longer. their temperature will slowly, gradually normalise. the treatment will start to bring everything under control. but their breathing might be laboured. their heart might be not quite beating the proper rhythm, but so they do gradually get better. so sometimes, having brought all of these medical records together, including for some children, evidence from the transport team, which was very important, you could see that there was a pattern of recovery when a child was taken out of the countess of chester, and then all of a sudden, things taking a turn for the worse when the child was brought back. we need to show members of the jury we can show you each time there was a baby that got compromised, she had her hand in what was going on, notjust she was there at the time. i know in some cases the defence was saying well you know, her writing is not there, but we knew she was in the vicinity. an awful lot of what you concentrated on is the what, the where and the when. often whether its people watching this case on the tv or reading about it orjuries, they'll often also think about the why, the what drove her. i wonder if that's something that you've tried to look at at all. we don't have to prove a motive they're highly personal to the perpetrator. so we just stay clear of that. what we've got to prove is the criminal intent and the ways in which she was inflicting this damage was clearly lethal. you know, she was turning innocuous substances into lethal weapons. i certainly don't want to get into her mindset, even though having a window into her mindset like these messages on her phone provided was an important insight because it helped understanding why her colleagues thought she was incapable of wrongdoing. and that's because she'd been reassuring them time and time again. but what we were able to identify is triggers boredom being one of them at some important milestones like this 100 days for this baby, this term date that baby g was supposed to do. because when she writes to her colleague of today, of all days, that was supposed to be the date that the baby was supposed to be born. so we knew that there were triggers. but why is a question that i don't think i want to consider an answer. lucy letby, of course, spent days in the witness box. i wonder what you made of her performance in the witness box. i thought she was extremely cold, unemotional. it struck me that whenever there were pictures of her, you know, drawings of her being shown, it was always with a tissue wiping her eyes. that was a very rare sight in the witness box. certainly talking about babies, there's only one. it's baby e in respect of whom she cried and probably because she'd been caught, but all the others. it was very striking to see that when she was talking about her former life as a nurse, talking about her house, she was in floods of tears. soon after that, her own counsel moved on to talk about the bereavement pack of baby a. that's probably the first document he questioned her about in relation to the babies. her tears dried almost instantly, and that was pretty much the way she came across, unemotional. so compare and contrast with evidence from some of her colleagues, like ashley hudson, who was still completely traumatised by what she'd been through when she tried to help out baby i. and yeah. there must be kind of one or two inconsistencies that strike you about what she said in the witness box. oh, yes. well, i mean, the most egregious was accusing the consultant of making up the fact that she was present in the room where baby k was because it was obvious that she was there. the whole of the evidence could show that she was there. she was entered into the medical notes. she did the admission of that baby. and her colleague was thinking, what is she thinking? her colleague places her there at the last deterioration, the last displacement of the endotracheal tube. she's there. and when she leaves the unit, she gives a menu of the medication that the baby was receiving at the time, to her colleague. so it was obvious that she had a very close involvement with that baby. i don't know who... well, i think that she was trying to fool the jury, but i don't know how in her mind it could, it could be justified to say, oh, i was just there for a fleeting momentjust because the baby was very tiny, but i never did anything with it. that was one of the that one of the worst lies that she could come up with, really. she comes across as an angelic smile promoting the baby grow campaign. and in fact, there is a much darker side to her personality.

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