do the newspapers still hold much sway over public opinion anyway? and what about those new outlets that merge during jeremy corbyn�*s time with power shifting to the centre of the party, how do they see their roles now? let me introduce you to my guests. jane merrick is policy editor at the the media show newspaper. you've been on twitter today with the assessment of keir starmer�*s speech, do all your readers go to twitter or do they wait for your in—depth analysis? i was tweeting a very long thread it was a very long tweet actually so i ended up tweeted about 70 tweets. i guess it's a mix. the first take is about a few tweets as you speak but i'm a chilly going to be writing a piece that's halfway part britain. about what is policy agenda is and whether that's enough to him to win the next obviously there's a long way to go but are these policies that come in for the next election. erin bastoni is co—founder of the barnett media a left—wing media company. i've been looking at the navarro website, you've got an op—ed saying that keir starmer isjust as dishonest as boris johnson. there is another headline, starmer breaks the rolls with up is that the kind of dramatic statement there reason your readers go to your site and not the mainstream media? well, i wouldn't say it's dramatic. the first piece is an op—ed. people have opinions. the thesis of that op—ed is available for anybody who wants to go and read it. in terms of our coverage no, we do sustained reporting, we have reporters in terms of the first port of call for the people who consume our content. it won't be an article generally it will be through a youtube channel. we have a show tonight at 7pm and our youtube channel which will look at the conference as well as other stories across the day. we have three of those a week. principally our footprint is audiovisual. that doesn't mean it's facebook and twitter, increasingly it's youtube and instagram. but we do try to cover multiple spaces, podcast, articles, explainers and video. jack pete is the founder of the london economic and other london digital only outlook. i see you have a piece headlined brits are flogging petrol on facebook for quadruple the pump price. that highs into a survey that found nearly half of britain's hold the media most responsible for petrol stations running out of fuel. what he say to that, what you think? i think there is obviously chaos at the pumps. - we were ticked off about - a story about how people are brazenly attempting to sell 10l of petrol for 50 quid. _ if you look at pay i because of the few prices it's down to a handful of spiralled into a huge - story. there's no smoke without fire. yes the media has had a role in petrol shortage and - that however what sort of- media, social media will have videos of long queues and i fights where is in the medial think that a lot of people - certainly we would be saying make sure that you consume petrol sensibly and that we l think about carers and . front—line workers is the priority. we also published a story at the same time. - i was looking back to a select committee report from 2016' where it puts in quite clear. day to of how the government was warned about all of this - happening within a month of the brexit referendum. no smoke without fire. and they knew. lara o'reilly is media editor at the media inside her. before we get into politics but start with you. netflix�*s ceo, a former media show guest, has been speaking to the press this week. what was he saying? what was quite interesting is this week netflix released some data that it doesn't usually put out. what this day to has to do with it's kind of most popular shows was up there is two surprising findings from that. i guess the big ones was that its new korean language series cold squid game which is basically a korean version of hunger games. not only could be its biggest non—english series of all time but he said it could be its biggest show ever. and it's really interesting, it's an interesting show, a real feast for the eyes, it got great reviews but it's interesting to see international content having such a big play in the us and in the uk. why do you think he is giving out this data? they have been accused of being quite opaque before. i guess tv executives and other people in the media have often grumbled that netflix doesn't release its viewership numbers and can basically say whatever it wants about the success of the shows at a time when it's plain to see that traditional tv ratings are failing. also at a time when netflix is spending billions of dollars and outbidding those tv companies getting exclusive access to content and so on. another big gripe the tv execs have had is when they've done their outside research into netflix shows in the past, the shows that it says are most successful, it usually bases on a metric which is essentially the number of households that watch at least two minutes of a show within the first month of its release. this time around, what they say about that as that's all well and good but what happens if you've got a very strong first episode and everybody hates it and the audience dwindles? where is everybody watches our point of view for strictly come dancing or whatever. this time it's released data on a different metric which is the number that actually watched, i'm s o rry , the total hours that were viewed within the 28 days. it gives you much more of a picture as to the series got that netflix views have actually binged and loved. ok, that's the streaming giant that's been shaking things up. let's turn to the political news outlets that have in their own ways been shaking things up. jack, you've been on the media show before back in 2017 at that point you had the most shared piece of any news outlook during the 2017 election. for listeners who don't know, what is the london economic? the london economic was sort of born_ the london economic was sort of born seven — the london economic was sort of born seven years ago largely out of— born seven years ago largely out of the financial crash, really. _ out of the financial crash, really, and it was a paper that was _ really, and it was a paper that was trying _ really, and it was a paper that was trying to explain to regular— was trying to explain to regular people whatjust happened, really, and why they were _ happened, really, and why they were suffering the effect of a great — were suffering the effect of a great sort of market explosion without — great sort of market explosion without the jargon and the complicated bets, and we've affect— complicated bets, and we've affect tivoli grown into what i would — affect tivoli grown into what i would described as a metropolitan publication with a metropolitan publication with a metropolitan mindset, so we espouse _ metropolitan mindset, so we espouse progressive and liberal and inclusive viewpoints but we also are — and inclusive viewpoints but we also are pro entrepreneurialism and we — also are pro entrepreneurialism and we understand the need for market— and we understand the need for market solutions as well and how — market solutions as well and how businesses can provide those — how businesses can provide those solutions as well as politicians.— those solutions as well as politicians. you say you are metropolitan, _ politicians. you say you are metropolitan, does - politicians. you say you are metropolitan, does that. politicians. you say you are i metropolitan, does that mean you are not interested in appealing to readers from the traditional redwall areas, that is not of interest to you? i wouldn't say that viewers per se, we — wouldn't say that viewers per se, we wouldn't draw a line to any sort — se, we wouldn't draw a line to any sort of— se, we wouldn't draw a line to any sort of audience anywhere, reatty~ — any sort of audience anywhere, reatty~ we _ any sort of audience anywhere, really. we are a newspaper, but we are _ really. we are a newspaper, but we are here to serve sort of a quite — we are here to serve sort of a quite clearly defined demographic and so i guess in some — demographic and so i guess in some regards, that may be true. you do _ some regards, that may be true. you do also _ some regards, that may be true. you do also have a deliberately tabloid feel. i was very tempted in the office earlier to open the story, watch naked man strolled down london street before his semi— clothed powell knocked a cyclist off bike. fantastic. but that is click bait, really. is that how you make money?— bait, really. is that how you make money? bait, really. is that how you make mone ? ., ., ., ., . ., make money? not at. to touch on the tabloid — make money? not at. to touch on the tabloid nature _ make money? not at. to touch on the tabloid nature of— make money? not at. to touch on the tabloid nature of the _ the tabloid nature of the newspaper, iagree, that tabloid — newspaper, iagree, that tabloid has become sort of like polluted — tabloid has become sort of like polluted by the red tops and really — polluted by the red tops and really what we were doing right from _ really what we were doing right from the — really what we were doing right from the start was trying to make — from the start was trying to make more complicated matters such as — make more complicated matters such as politics and economics accessible, and obviously, you know. — accessible, and obviously, you know. like _ accessible, and obviously, you know, like any newspaper, we are hot— know, like any newspaper, we are notjust a politics newspaper, we have food in sport— newspaper, we have food in sport and _ newspaper, we have food in sport and lifestyle pages, we obviously try to cater to a broad _ obviously try to cater to a broad audience, but that, i think— broad audience, but that, i think that that actually, taking _ think that that actually, taking a new use of the tabloid format — taking a new use of the tabloid format to— taking a new use of the tabloid format to communicate with people — format to communicate with people as our things. so what is our people as our things. so what is your business _ people as our things. so what is your business model, - people as our things. so what is your business model, howl people as our things. so what i is your business model, how do you make money? we is your business model, how do you make money?— is your business model, how do you make money? we make money throu~h you make money? we make money through advertising, _ you make money? we make money through advertising, and _ you make money? we make money through advertising, and that - through advertising, and that comes— through advertising, and that comes through in various forms, but effectively, we have been sort _ but effectively, we have been sort of— but effectively, we have been sort of self sustainable for a number— sort of self sustainable for a number of years and have been lucky— number of years and have been lucky enough to sort of build a team — lucky enough to sort of build a team on— lucky enough to sort of build a team on the back of the stuff that— team on the back of the stuff that we — team on the back of the stuff that we are putting out which is becoming increasingly popular. is becoming increasingly -o - ular. is becoming increasingly pewter-— is becoming increasingly popular. is becoming increasingly --oular. , ., popular. erin, remind us how navarro media _ popular. erin, remind us how navarro media covers - popular. erin, remind us how navarro media covers its - popular. erin, remind us how. navarro media covers its costs, because in ideological terms you practise what you preach? i you practise what you preach? i hope so, so we have an automatic stuff, we pay the freelancers more than we pay our stuff together because they don't get pensions and holidays, so that sounds quite hard. so we have no advertising except youtube but we have considerable advertising revenue coming from there. but the overwhelming majority of our income, 85% plus is from monthly supporters who are quite happy to make a regular payment, sometimes it's a one—off payment as well, to support our work, and that is not that unique when you think about the guardian. the guardian is free to read but you say would you like to support ourjournalism because we produce something quite distinct from say the daily mail or the express, i don't denigrate what they do but it is different. and they are willing to also pave the idea that other people can read this content without there being a pay wall. so we operate on something quite similar. and it has worked, and i think my message to people who are sceptical about that, who want to enter the media or journalism, there is a huge appetite for new ideas, new ways of doing things, different kind of content from what you might see in legacy media, and you can find your is a great essay by kevin kelly from wired magazine, 1001 fans, he wrote about 20 years ago but many of the lessons and that article are still pertinent, so we found our audience, are still pertinent, so we found ouraudience, it are still pertinent, so we found our audience, it is growing and we are growing and we are very happy to have been able to do that was to be incongruent with our values. but i have to ask, like the london economic you did very well underjeremy corbyn, so what has happened to your traffic since then? yellow actually last year was the best for us by far. actually last year was the best for us by far-— for us by far. our youtube audience _ for us by far. our youtube audience doubled, - for us by far. our youtube audience doubled, people| audience doubled, people getting content online, stuck indoors because of lockdown and i don't thinkjeremy corbyn is why we have grown. i actually look at it is more of a generational cleavage. if you look at the sun newspaper, after murdoch comes into the british market from the late 60s, early 70s, he identified a big part of the market, baby boomers, and he has been on a contentjourney has entire career with the sun, the sunday times and sky, and i think we look at millennial�*s and generation z and we say, we know where you feel the media is falling short, we want to craft stories and offer insights where you would like to see them and we are going to go on thatjourney with you, so we have an audience right now and it's 30s and 20s but we want to grow and when they are in their 40s want to grow and when they are in theirli0s and want to grow and when they are in their 40s and 50s, having influence and making the decisions, they are coming to our publication.— our publication. these sites are doing — our publication. these sites are doing quite _ our publication. these sites are doing quite well - our publication. these sites are doing quite well with i our publication. these sites are doing quite well with al are doing quite well with a healthy following but how have papers like yours changed in response? i papers like yours changed in resume?— response? i think it is really interesting _ response? i think it is really interesting and _ response? i think it is really interesting and the - response? i think it is really| interesting and the websites like navarro did really well underjeremy corbyn and showed to be quite disruptive actually and i think no matter what the politics is, i think that is a really good point about generational leadership, followership, people who go online. our newspaper i think is read by a broad scope of ages actually, we have young readers, student readers, older readers, student readers, older readers, they can obviously get the newspaper for 65p but they can also go online and i think legacy media, what newspapers have done is to really improve our online offering. maybe not so much in direct response but just in awareness of this is where the media is going, so we have an app, we have a much fuller online offering i think then obviously we did five or ten years ago and i think that shows in the website today. {lilia shows in the website today. ok, so let's come — shows in the website today. ok, so let's come back _ shows in the website today. ok, so let's come back to _ shows in the website today. ok, so let's come back to the political events this week. keir starmer has been in brighton for the party conference. jane, how well do you think keir starmer and his team handle the media? that is a very good _ team handle the media? that is a very good question. _ team handle the media? that is a very good question. i - team handle the media? that is a very good question. i would i a very good question. i would have said before today there have said before today there have been some teething problems. on the eve of conference we would have expected a big interview say, with the guardian, and he did something with the sunday mirror i think with the guardian, there wasn't really a major piece there and i think he struggled actually because of the pandemic, and because of just where we are with the labor party. i think he has struggled, actually, to have a proper hearing from the press, and i think that part of that is that he hasn't been able to break through due to covid but also because he hasn't really, as he said today, got his health in order and i think today that has been a slight game changer in terms of how the media regard him. a will just read out a tweet from the political editor of the son who said, long road to go but at least the opposition are finally having a crack at credibility and that is a really interesting response i think from them so as he has said, it's a long way to go but he has delivered a speech that shows that he is serious about winning a general election. do you agree with jane? it has been imposed now for about 18 months. you look at the local elections, hartlepool. anyway, covid should have been a gift for him. 0dd should have been a gift for him. odd thing to say given we have had those period, but he was given the opportunity. i think regardless of whether you agree with a politician, it is agree with a politician, it is a difficultjob and he had time to get as policy messages right, and i think we need to understand, actually, struggles with communications, whether it is brexit or stomach, it tends to be for politicians being on the back seat. you don't need policy to get the communications rate. it sets you up. in terms of labour, it could be village. the world has changed past 20 years. what is the policy from stomach, we don't know, but for me, the conclusion that we have from living conference last night was that people were having these debates one way or another, £15 minimum wage we should have walkman workers, think about was the original point. infighting in the labour party. and i look my phone and i am looking at people having scraps on a petrol forecourt. it feels as though these conversations about collectability is kind of disassociated from reality. i thought it was an adequate speech, it wasn't a bad speech. if it was a bad speech i would think he was in trouble but i don't see the mustering of the media that could be necessary for labour, because we know that labour has structure because of media which will favour the tories. for starmer to win majority is a huge asked, but to win power? i don't see it. i don't see it with legacy media and i don't see it at all with new media, not one bit. let's talk about how that may change. jane, do you think he needs a political big from the press to work with him? tony blair had alistair campbell. we had james milnerfrom blair had alistair campbell. we had james milner from the guardian, what do you think? it is an interesting question, he had matthew doyle. when i started _ had matthew doyle. when i started 20 years ago, matthew is running the rebuttal unit and — is running the rebuttal unit and at _ is running the rebuttal unit and at the labour press office. he is— and at the labour press office. he is experience, he has lots of experience with labour, any government, he worked for tony blair— government, he worked for tony blair after— government, he worked for tony blair after tony blair left power. _ blair after tony blair left power, and it has allowed some of the _ power, and it has allowed some of the jeremy corbyn supporters to say _ of the jeremy corbyn supporters to say it — of the jeremy corbyn supporters to say it is — of the jeremy corbyn supporters to say it is a tony blair tribute _ to say it is a tony blair tribute act, but the important point — tribute act, but the important point is — tribute act, but the important point is that he is a professional, he understands communication. i think in some ways, _ communication. i think in some ways, aaron is red, he could have — ways, aaron is red, he could have done _ ways, aaron is red, he could have done better with getting his policies in order for the pandemic, but you don't need a name. — pandemic, but you don't need a name, lobby name or a bigger tv name _ name, lobby name or a bigger tv name anymore. i don't think it matters — name anymore. idon't think it matters as— name anymore. i don't think it matters as much as getting the message — matters as much as getting the message right and getting that cut through. i think it is about— cut through. i think it is about credibility and he has made — about credibility and he has made a _ about credibility and he has made a big step today and getting that credibility. some _ getting that credibility. some names have been bandied about, such as kevin maguire, and you don't think that is necessary? i don't think it is necessary idon't think it is necessary really— i don't think it is necessary really because when tony blair took _ really because when tony blair took on — really because when tony blair took on alistair campbell from the daily— took on alistair campbell from the daily mirror in the early days, — the daily mirror in the early days, i_ the daily mirror in the early days, i think there was a different sense of... tony blair _ different sense of... tony blair was _ different sense of... tony blair was seen as the inevitable next prime minister. ithink— inevitable next prime minister. i think the jury is still out with— i think the jury is still out with starmer. there is a long way— with starmer. there is a long way to— with starmer. there is a long way to go _ with starmer. there is a long way to go. we may see starmer needing _ way to go. we may see starmer needing to — way to go. we may see starmer needing to fight for two elections, if his party will allow— elections, if his party will allow him, because boris johnson _ allow him, because boris johnson is still pretty popular, as we have been discussing, despite the pandemic, despite the fuel crisis _ pandemic, despite the fuel crisis. so, yes, i don't think you — crisis. so, yes, i don't think you can _ crisis. so, yes, i don't think you can attract big names but i don't _ you can attract big names but i don't think— you can attract big names but i don't think he necessarily needs— don't think he necessarily needs to. i think he has to get his own — needs to. i think he has to get his own position and his own policies. _ his own position and his own policies, his own oedema right to then — policies, his own oedema right to then be able to say, right, we can— to then be able to say, right, we can win _ to then be able to say, right, we can win this election. aaron. _ we can win this election. aaron, this takes me to your relationship and the relationship and the relationship of your colleagues with jeremy corbyn. relationship of your colleagues withjeremy corbyn. did you in any way help or shape policies or test media lines? this has been thrown at us repeatedly, you are for corbin, or whatever. the reality is, corbin and his people were so overstretched with the challenges they faced internally and externally that they didn't have time to do that stuff. the intricate rebuttal, building relationships with people who would be useful, they didn't do it. they should have. i don't think it is because of their failures. theyjust had such a crises, brexit, two elections, brexit emerging, so did we feed into policy? i think some of the stuff that came in at 2017 and 2019, certainly we fed into some of that but it was never really delivered in a particularly cogent way. one thing i will say about keir starmer, i agree that if his party is given some bites of thejury, he will party is given some bites of the jury, he will need two. the big difference between keir starmer and tony blair is that when they brought on alistair campbell and made those big rule changes, and we have seen the image of that in the last week, they had john prescott. they got the trade unions on site. people forget that actually tony blair took people on a journey, and it was a popularjourney with mass consent. i think keir starmer overstepped the mark last week in his initial proposal which collapsed. and i think he needs to learn a lesson from that. you can't early people in a way that wasn't even being done by tony blair at his peak. so there was a little bit of hubris. i think. i think starmer majesty may beg to differ, but we won't get into that. of course! in terms of corbyn and his team, did you have contact with them? were you allied with them? no, not at all. as a newspaper ithink— no, not at all. as a newspaper i think we _ no, not at all. as a newspaper i think we were _ no, not at all. as a newspaper i think we were born— no, not at all. as a newspaper i think we were born out - no, not at all. as a newspaper i think we were born out of- no, not at all. as a newspaper i think we were born out of a l i think we were born out of a lot of— i think we were born out of a lot of things. _ i think we were born out of a lot of things, ideological, . i think we were born out of al lot of things, ideological, but we were _ lot of things, ideological, but we were never— lot of things, ideological, but we were never purposely... i lot of things, ideological, buti we were never purposely... in fact— we were never purposely... in fact we — we were never purposely... in fact we were _ we were never purposely... in fact we were never _ we were never purposely... in fact we were never aligned - we were never purposely... in. fact we were never aligned with the labour— fact we were never aligned with the labour party— fact we were never aligned with the labour party then, - fact we were never aligned with the labour party then, not - the labour party then, not aligned _ the labour party then, not aligned with _ the labour party then, not aligned with them - the labour party then, not aligned with them now. i the labour party then, noti aligned with them now. we the labour party then, not i aligned with them now. we are 'ust aligned with them now. we are just as — aligned with them now. we are just as likely— aligned with them now. we are just as likely to _ aligned with them now. we are just as likely to talk _ aligned with them now. we are just as likely to talk to - aligned with them now. we are just as likely to talk to rory i just as likely to talk to rory stewart— just as likely to talk to rory stewart and _ just as likely to talk to rory stewart and barry- just as likely to talk to rory stewart and barry as - just as likely to talk to rory stewart and barry as we i just as likely to talk to rory i stewart and barry as we would do talk — stewart and barry as we would do talk with _ stewart and barry as we would do talk with any— stewart and barry as we would do talk with any of— stewart and barry as we would do talk with any of the - do talk with any of the corbin's _ do talk with any of the corbin's shadow- do talk with any of the i corbin's shadow cabinet or starmer's _ corbin's shadow cabinet or starmer's shadow- corbin's shadow cabinet or starmer's shadow cabinet. jane, _ starmer's shadow cabinet. jane, we _ starmer's shadow cabinet. jane, we do _ starmer's shadow cabinet. jane, we do assume - starmer's shadow cabinet. jane, we do assume that. starmer's shadow cabinet. . jane, we do assume that the newspapers on the left will always support the labour leader, and then papers on the right will look at the conservative leaders, but it isn't always the case? no, obviously in the late 1980s and early 2000, the murdoch press supported tony blair, and famously a very close relationship there. i think thatis relationship there. i think that is slightly different now. i don't think that they need the murdoch press anymore. i don't think it is that crucial. it is obviously important but not crucial. the guardian i don't think explicitly back to the labour party in the last election or the election before. yes, it is more complicated. i think that is a difference because of social media. you don'tjust need the backing of newspapers. it is more open. what about on the conservative side was —— conservative side? there was a big tax rise when borisjohnson brought there was a big tax rise when boris johnson brought followed, and there was speculation it would not pass, it was the end of conservatism. interestingly enough, and it is a good debate that borisjohnson started about whether he could actually get tax rises passes party but when it comes to it, two weeks on, for weeks to go to election, he will get the backing of the daily mirror, the daily telegraph, i think. jane, tell the question i posed at the top of the programme. how much they do you think the press actually holds over public opinion? i think we still do, we still do, but not to the extent where i think in 1987 and 2001where it really mattered to get that support. i wouldn't say it's won the election, but saw the way the wind was blowing. i think it is more diffuse now because of social media, it is more evenly spread. take you to all of you, clara 0'reilly, media editor at insider, jane merrick, policy editor, to the co—founder of navarra media, and our expert from the london economic. this show will be back on the same time next week. thank you for joining. after a couple of days of sunshine and showers we are now seeing an area of low pressure moving in from the southwest that is mainly affecting england and wales. that is bringing with it some heavy rain and it is also strengthening the winds too. we start with some heavy rain across east anglia and the south—east but it will soon move away. but for northern england it will be wet through much of the day. the rain continues to push into the south—east of scotland. forwales, midlands and southern england it may brighten up, they may be sunshine but also showers. around the area of low pressure we have strong winds, particularly where it is wet and it will make it feel cold. some of the wet weather could push on to the north—east of scotland later, but we are missing the worst of the weather across western scotland and northern ireland with no more than one or two showers and some sunshine. the area of low pressure bringing the wet wind is slowly going to move away during wednesday, and the next with system will be pushing and from the atlantic. we started winding on wednesday for eastern england. the winds will ease, cloud and showers move away, sunshine comes out for many but then we look to the west. it will be clearing through the day, than in the afternoon rain will push in mainly for northern ireland. ahead of that, it should be a little bit warmer. temperatures of 16 or 17 degrees. there's warmer weather on the way later in the week. the weather front backing is off northern ireland, high pressure into the south—east of the uk, so drawing drawing in a south—westerly wind all the way from the tropics. that's going to bring some higher temperatures, probably bring a lot of cloud, mind you, on thursday, and rain and drizzle at times across scotland and northern ireland. some dampness here and there across western england and wales with brighter skies further east. even with a lot of cloud, temperatures could reach 90 degrees in belfast and newcastle could make 20 or so across other parts of england and wales. we still have that weather front hanging around a bit across northern parts of the uk. the position of the rain keeps chopping and changing, there's still the threat of rain for northern ireland, perhaps first thing in northern england as the rain moves northward into southern and central scotland. these areas not quite as warm, but with lighter winds and more sunshine breaking through across england and wales, it will be very mild, temperatures of 20 and 21 celsius. welcome to bbc news. i'm lewis vaughanjones. 0urtop welcome to bbc news. i'm lewis vaughanjones. our top stories: vaughan jones. our top stories: facebook vaughanjones. our top stories: facebook apologises as its platforms suffer their biggest ever outage. they say service on the social network, on whatsapp, and instagram is resuming but full access may take some time. a donor to britain's governing party involved in a russian corruption scandal will stop the latest delegation to come out of the pandora papers. a new report from haiti, where busloads of migrants supported by the us find themselves back in a country they haven't lived in a country they haven't lived in in years. translation: ., , , translation: what hurts is the treatment we _ translation: what hurts is the treatment we received. - translation: what hurts is the treatment we received. in i treatment we received. in human. most of all, the chains on ourfeet. we human. most of all, the chains on our feet. we are not slaves. migration is a right, not

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