so, glenn, i mean, this is just all new territory for me, right. i ve never had this discussion about whether an adviser to the president may or may not have been intoxicated. but talk to me about how this is important to anybody s case. jack smith s case, fani willis s case, rudy giuliani is a named co-defendant in georgia, not in the january 6 case for the moment. tell me more about what you think about this and the thread that jack smith is pulling on. yeah, i think it is relevant evidence. it is not just salacious. it is not just the setup a punchline about rudy giuliani. but first of all, intoxication is a subject of keen interest in most criminal investigations. for example, if you have a defendant who is intoxicated at the time he committed a crime, it might negate his specific intent and it might take a case of a salt with intent to kill down to a case of simple assault because he was too drunk to form
until he has the answers, he s not going to do it. and the judge said if i don t have an answer for you on this, you into he had to get yourself arraigned the way you re supposed to on september 6th. glenn kirshner is with me. and carol letting is with us. the national investigator for the washington post and tamar hellerman, from the atlanta journal constitution and tamara, i want to spend time with you because you spent time watching this in court. it is hard to distinguish between all of the legal things happening in country around donald trump. it is like a pig pen dust cloud. but this is fascinating. mark meadows in a little mini trial, he s getting cross-examined to make the argument that you people in this court should not have jurisdiction over trying me. tell me what you saw and witnessed and experienced? well, the former chief of
him by someone who may or may not have been in his right mind. another example, which jack smith previewed in his january 6 indictment of trump, that points to this pattern, is that they layout that trump, according to multiple witnesses have privately called sidney powell s election fraud conspiracy theories, quote so this is another brick if the road that jack smith appears to be building toward trying to prove in a court of law that trump was not just leaning on quote/unquote advice of counsel, he was engineering a reality that he perhaps knew was fictitious and wanted to will into existence because he waned to cling to power. glenn, i want to play for you something, because it is not the first time this has come up about rudy giuliani and his drinking. it may be the first time it has it is important to a lot of americans. i want to play for you some testimony before the january 6 select committee and i m going to ask the viewers to listen to
a political adviser to rudy giuliani. joining us now is opsing and glenn kirshner is back with us as well. thank you for your reporting on this. look, this is touchy. this is dicey stuff. there are two questions here. there is a question about rudy giuliani and his drinking. but more importantly for the nation, there is the question about rudy giuliani and his drinking, whether that was a known fact by the people involved if the effort to overturn the election and whether anybody relied on rudy giuliani if, in fact, he were drunk. and yes, and that is why the special counsel s investigators have been asking multiple key witnesses questions about, as you read at the top of the segment, how much trump knew or did not know about rudy giuliani s drinking habits. if the then leader of the free world donald trump thought that this was an issue, that in this or other instances couldn t
and i think more fundamentally, on the advice of counsel defense, i also think it is really hard for donald trump to pursue that when his counsel are his co-defendants in the january 6 trial, they re his unindicted co-defendants and there is no advice of co-defendant offense. so that also complicated the advice of counsel defense that donald trump might other weiss have. thanks for your reporting. glenn, thank you for your great analysis. when we come back, what happens to one state s political party when it is overcome by right-wing election deniers. we ll talk with one reporter who went to figure out that out in the state of michigan. e of mich.