he did. want to take sides on other ohio questions, one on health care, perhaps. he's a flip-flopper should have been more careful. his critics suggest romney was noncommittal not because he was confused, but because polls now show a majority of ohioans oppose the measure and ohio will be a critical fall 2012 battleground. to those critics, a change of expediency on par with romney's explanation of why he fired for lawn care company. now, romney's advantage in this race is real, very real. but so are the risks. ohio democrats taunted governor romney today suggesting he lacked the courage to tell them to their face, to express his support for anti-union measure while he was right there on monday. is that fair? maybe not. we have already seen what has happened to candidates who are perceived to lack courage. >> president obama said that he designed obamacare after romneycare and basically made it obamneycare. >> governor pawlenty refused to back up the phrase. >> why? >> let me first say to silvia, she put her finger on one of noes important issues facing the country. >> the question, governor, why obamneycare. >> this is another example of him breaking his practice and he has to be held accountable. >> your rival is standing right there. if it was obamney care on fox news sunday, why is it not obamney care with the governor standing right there. >> we also know what happens if the flip-flop label becomes chronic. >> i actually did vote for the $87 billion before i voted against it. >> let's dig deeper on the new numbers and the challenge facing governor romney with cnn contributors mary madeline and tom brownstein and michael crowley with us tonight. mary, we want to dig deep on the numbers in a minute because they tell us about your party and the race. first on this narrative, no question that governor romney leading in the first four states and he has the finances and he has the organizations. he could, emphasis on could lock it up in 100 days but the tv ad spending is just beginning. we know this will be the point of it. how vulnerable he is on this idea that he lacks a core and he's a man of political expediency and not core convictions. >> well, if you look even to these polls, the dynamic hasn't changed in that. there's still some 75% that are for the nonromney candidate. he has not consolidated any of the anti-romney vote and the core of your concern is what you just raised. what is his core? he tried various things. i was a red governor in a blue state or i wouldn't do it in your state or whatever his arguments are, he is somehow not convincing that 75%, which is against him and also in all of these polls that cnn has out today, they're still 3-1 people are undecided. although this looks good for governor romney, i would be asking myself if perry is in such bad shape, why is he still lining up people in states, not only these states but subsequent states? why am i not getting beyond my 25% ceiling? this is still a hugely volatile electorate. >> excellent questions mary raises, gentlemen. let's focus on the particular issues. we know iowa, for example, state number one. we don't know how hard romney plays there. he will eventually have to come out of new hampshire and go to south carolina and evangelical voters important and why did he change the position on adorgz. here's governor romney debating the late senator edward kennedy. romney was the republican nominee against democrat kennedy. the question is abortion. >> i believe that since roe v. wade has been the law for 20 years, we should sustain and support it. i sustain and support that law and the right of a woman to make that choice. >> now, that was then. this is now. >> i believe people understand that i'm firmly prolife. i will support justices who believe in following the constitution and not legislating from the bench. >> there's no question his rivals think this is the vulnerability. listen here, governor rick perry on the o'reilly factor last night going right after whether romney has a core. >> how do you change at the age of 50 or 60 positions on life, positions on guns, positions on traditional marriage? i mean, those aren't minor issues, bill. so, to change those at age of 50 or 60 tells you all you need to know about that. >> by all you need to know, michael, he says political expediency and governor romney is trailing in the polls and we'll show you that in the numbers in a second. he's got a lot of money. i suspect his first ad was positive. that's what we're about to see on television. >> everyone remembers when he tried to make the case he just made and he couldn't get a sentence out straight, it was kind of embarrassing. the case there is pretty easy to make. in that case he was articulating it pretty well and his ads will articulate it very well. he escaped this line of attack in his campaign so far, but it's coming. that's a vulnerability for him. >> they seem to have this perception, it has been litigated. he went through this in the 2008 campaign and it won't have as much of an impact this time. >> it could have an impact, but one thing that is clear in these polls. i disagree with what mary was saying is that the party ay is segmented and the more religious part of the party that continue to show a lot of resistance to romney but fragmenting on who they are coming behind. cain is doing best among them but not consolidating. among voters who do not consider themselves born again christians or do not consider themselves voters of the tea party. romney is making steady progress. he leads in both of those categories in all four states. and i think those voters are probably less likely to be moved by the kind of ideological -- >> let's dig deeper on the point that ron is making. let's go state by state and show you the advantage that romney has at the moment. 69 nights tonight we'll be waiting for the caucus reports. difficult to pull in a caucus state. romney on top, but it's close. interesting, though, ron paul third and newt gingrich and perry just cracking double digits. new hampshire, the former massachusetts governor and he owns a vacation home in new hampshire, look at that, he's the run away leader. hard to take that one away, but iowa could impact the florida polls. now we go to south carolina. this is a fascinating test here. romney went off the rails in this state last time. he leads right now, 25%. but herman cain the surprising conservative challenger, neck and neck. that's a statistical tie right there. florida looks like something like new hampshire. more of a traditional republican party there. romney with a big lead. i want to walk over there to reinforce the point that ron brownstein just made. this is the first election for republicans that we've seen since the election of the tea party. many evangelical voters can be tea party voters but among evangelicals. herman cain has the lead and romney holding his own. if you're rick perry, that's a warning sign to you. but ron's point was among those who do not consider themselves born again christians, that's his advantage in that state. i just want to bring up south carolina to reinforce the point. among born again christians, herman cain. the surprising leader and, again, for rick perry, that's a bad number. those who are not consider themselves born again christians. look at that. mitt romney leads. you have, some of it is a religious divide within the party and some is a class divide within the party, but at the moment, at the moment, mary, let me go to you. if you're looking at a primary race, why can't romney go up. what does he need to do or can he do anything? does he have to hope three or four people from his right stay in at least through three states? >> to the extent that he is making end roads in those groups and i do not want to put all the tea party people into evangelical or christian or any kind of faith-based voting bloc. they're much bigger than that and even bigger than the tea party. they're about a set of principal s. he hasn't demonstrated infid infidelity to those issues. but he, why he is gaining any strength is because he is carrying the banner of inevitability. that is a two-edge sword. if you're the inevitable candidate as mrs. clinton saw in the last race, you have to win everywhere. you just can't make a show in iowa and you have to do better, you have to wipe out in new hampshire because he's been living there for six years and literally lives there and he's got to do. if he wins in south carolina, then this firewall starts in florida. one thing, what do we know john and boys? iowa matters more than we ever think it is going to matter. it impacts the subsequent races in ways that none of have predicted very well in the last couple of cycles. >> that's an excellent point, boys, as mary calls you. we're all friends here. these polls are an important snapshot tonight. this is coming quicker than we think. however, whatever happens in iowa, forget the other state polls after that. >> the presidential primaries are like billiards. its shot changes every subsequent shot on tv. once voters are voting, all of this can change very rapidly. having said that there, mitt romney and in all three states, actually, that we had enough to poll florida, iowa, south carolina, that's almost exactly what he got last time in 2008. what is happening, where i disagree with mary, i think for that more moderate, more secular, more economically focused part of the party, he is more than inevitable, he's a reasonable choice. he's beginning to consolidate that side of the party and the others can't let him continue to kind of grow on that side while they're deviting the more conservative side. >> there is an exception to the rule, for instance, a mike huckabee on the republican side last time won iowa a lot of attention and sensation around here. he didn't go anywhere. barack obama seemed to have changed that dynamic, hillary clinton was able to hold him off in new hampshire after we all pronounced her dead in that state. one other thing i would add is the clinton parallel is very interesting. mitt romney running a clear campaign and excellent in debates. this moment he had today is a little bit of hillary and the driver's licenses. if you show that one moment of weakness. you can have these crystalizing moments and then it becomes a character issue for mitt romney. he's got to be careful of a character-based attack. people just don't think these real. >> the part of the party that is resistant to him behind one candidate, the extent of the party that is open to him is coalescing behind him. >> let me answer that in a different way, but comes with the same point. the enthusiasm gap for, how can i say this? the anti-obama enthusiasm is greater than the lack of enthusiasm for romney. yes, everyone will coalesce around him. john, what can he do? instead of being so in the box, fidelity to the first principles and not a 59-point plan, we want something bold, serious and we can understand the flat tax and the evidence of wanting something like that, it has been out for two days and these polls or other polls, it has three times as great of support as the 9-9-9 plan. so what romney can do to consolidate the cohort you're talking about, to do something, run on that so he has a mandate to make bold tax reform and regulatory reform when he gets elected. >> isn't that part of his problem? he eviscerated the flat tax back in 1996 when he was in massachusetts. he called it the fat cat tax. so, if he embraces it now, doesn't that feed into the narrative of everybody else, what do you stand for? >> well, he's clearly demonstrated his flexibility. so, he's been, you know, the times have changed and we need tax reform more than we ever had before. this is a message race, not a candidate contest. the guy who does the message the right way is going to beat obama. >> real quick, it remains to be seen whether the flat tax can selen in 2012. the environment has changed but by the end of 1996, if you were looking at polling. negative for steve forbes. perry try to put out flat tax 2.0 to respond to the forbes tax plan in '96. big tax cut for people that top and $900 billion a year when fully phased in and that is a lot to swallow even for republican primary voters concerned about the deficit. >> even if it is exciting for republican primary voters, not going to play well in the center. one thing we haven't mentioned mitt romney's -- certainly like someone against herman cain. you'll see him making that argument more exmr. you could see them winding up with a guy that they think can win. >> democrats sometimes accept the electability. i'm waiting to see if they can sort ideology, electability. rick perry says it may have been a mistake to take part in the republican debates. here's the question we will answer next. will he start dodging them now? 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[ male announcer ] we're not employers or employees. not white collar or blue collar or no collars. we are business in america. and every day we awake to the same challenges. but at prudential we're helping companies everywhere find new solutions to manage risk, capital and employee benefits, so american business can get on with business. ♪ rick perry's campaign began to turn the disappointing iowa poll numbers around. the first to launch paid television advertising. >> as president, i will create 200 million new jobs. in texas we created over 200 million new jobs. >> he thinks the reason he fell from at or near the top of the polls now down to the middle of the pack was by agreeing to participate in the debates. >> these debates are set up for nothing more than to tear down the candidates. pretty hard to be able to sit and lay out your ideas and your concepts with a one-minute response. so, if there was a mistake made, it was probably ever doing one of the campaigns when all their in trusted in is stirring it up between the candidates. >> does that mean fewer debate appearances for the texas governor? let's ask his top spokesman. ray sullivan and our conservative contributor dana lash. ray sullivan on that question. the governor clearly not happy with the structure and format of the debates. does that mean he will not play in some of them? >> well, john, there have been eight republican debates so far, five since governor perry got in. we certainly respect the process, but when you've got eight or nine candidates and 30 seconds to a minute, it takes valuable time to away from campaigning in iowa, as those elections approach. >> do i take that as -- are you saying he is going to look over the calendar and scratch some of them out? >> john, i think 18 more in the planning phases. there's no way that the candidates can do all those debates. >> dana, can governor perry afford now whether you accept or disagree with his format. i feel for the candidates and i learned a lot of lessons myself. hard with seven or eight candidates up there. now that he is at third and fourth in some states, start saying i am not going to come to your debate? >> i don't think he can at this point. i do kind of agree, it's difficult to get in a really good sound bite because so much of politics is based on good sound bites. we have a couple candidates, herman cain and newt gingrich who really understand this. they're always prepared with a quick 60-second remark. it could be very, very difficult and the scrutiny is hard but i don't think perry can debate it. he has a great war chest, he unrolled his job's plan and he unrolled his tax plan and that's what a lot of people wanted to see. we now want to see how aggressive he can be in these debates and whether or not, because of his performance and rhetorical skills, he can turn this into a two-man race. >> the question to get the candidates to stir it up. that's his perspective. this is brian williams asking the questions during an nbc debate. this is not a question to ask governor perry to stir it up, this is a question about his record. >> texas ranks last among those who have completed high school. there are only eight other states with more living in poverty, no other state has more working at or below the minimum wage. so, is that the kind of answer all americans are looking for? >> actually, what americans are looking for is someone who can get this country working again. and we put the model in place in the state of texas. >> and one more example right here is anderson cooper at our most recent debate asking a question, again not getting the governor to stir things up, but trying to ask him about his record. >> governor perry in the last debate governor perry pointed out that texas has one of the highest rate of uninsured children in the country. over 100 million kids. how do you explain that? >> the fact is we have a huge number of illegals that are coming in to this country. and they're coming into this country because the federal government has failed to secure that border. but they're coming here because dollar is a magnet. and the magnet is called jobs. those people who hire illegals ought to be penalized. and, mitt, you lose all of your standing from my perspective because you hired illegals in your home and you knew about it for a year. >> forgive me, ray sullivan, but the complaint is that the moderators are trying to stir things up he was asked about his record and has every right to do this, but the governor stirring things up there, wasn't it? >> well, look, every candidate has to fight for their time. we certainly understand that. there is a time and place for these things, john. but when you're talking about 18 more debates, particularly now as people are starting to think about heading to the polls. we're about 60 days away from votes being cast. the candidates need to spend time in iowa doing those town halls and spending a lot more time with the voters who oftentimes have the best questions and press the candidates the hardest. >> do you have a number? you keep saying 18 on the books. i think you're right, might be 100 on the books or 18. i think 12 that have been officially agreed to and a crazy number, some people think. do you have a number now? do you know who is going to be in these two or three or are you still debating that? >> i know for sure november 9th on another network we're going to participate in that. but, look, we're taking each of these as they come. examining the schedule and examining the opportunities and the opportunity costs and, again, we recognize we need to be in iowa and new hampshire, south carolina, florida and nevada and talking to those voters and giving them a chance to exercise their responsibility to vet the candidates, to have town hall meetings and to talk about the issues that are important to them. >> dana, governor huntsman tried that in the nevada debate, we polled in new hampshire since that debate and let me just say kindly, it didn't work. so my question is, in this environment, i understand ray's point and governor perry was the last candidate into the race. he is newer to the voters in new hampshire, south carolina and the like. but right now rick perry is in fourth place in florida, he's tied for fourth in iowa and sixth place in new hampshire with 4%. the question is, just going and camping out in these states going to make the difference or do you think it's a huge risk if he says, maybe i won't do the cnn arizona debate. how big is that risk with herman cain doing so well? >> yeah, i don't think that perry right now should be saying no to any debate. jon huntsman can because jon huntsman is not going to win the nomination. he is like the bill paxton of politics. he and tim pawlenty and some of these other ones all look like the same person to me. i don't think that perry can say no because he's still, again, you're right. he was late into this and he missed a couple of debates already. he's playing catch up a little bit because not a lot of people and this is the same with michele bachmann. a lot of people didn't know who michele bachmann was until she announced she was running for president and the same thing with governor perry. texans know him, but a lot of the rest of americans are still learning about his record and are still being introduced to him. so, i don't think that he can say no. but really quickly to his point about the media or, whomever encouraging candidates to kind of cut each other down. if wasn't this network but the debate before the last that looked like a ufh set where they all sat around the table like "that's '70s show" they were doing the moderator's job then. i think he had a point with that particular exchange. he can't say no to debates. >> we appreciate his time tonight, ray, thank you. dana, thank you. strap in, everybody. debates or no debates. we have a lot of fun ahead. the vice president's office is complaining about a reporter. we'll break down the tape and ask that reporter if he thinks he crossed the line. next, tonight's truth about this. >> we can't wait. 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"instd the secret world of bernie and ruth" will be our guest tonight. tonight's, we can't resist. truly deviant. so, stick around. back to you. >> that's what in tv we call an effective tease. deviant. erin, we'll see you in just a few minutes. the president is making his case on the road. yes, he wants everyone to vote for him. but tonight's number is about one group that is especially important. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future. since ameriprise financial was founded back in 1894, they've been committed to putting clients first. helping generations through tough times. good times. never taking a bailout. there when you need them. helping millions of americans over the centuries. the strength of a global financial leader. the heart of a one-to-one relationship. together for your future. ♪ that's me with the blow dryer and the flat iron until i see smoke. so pantene said, "breakage and split ends? no problem." they gave me this pantene called breakage to strength. 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(laughing) yeah. get $100 rebate when you buy four tires. 100 bucks! only at your ford dealer. 3 million tires. 11 major brands, fiona's kind-of-nice. i don't know why you're not here. tonight's number is a big one. 15.2 million. 15.2 million. that's how many votes president obama received in the 2008 presidential election. that's a big number. let's take a closer look-in the entire 18 to 29 population, there are 23 million voters. it is critical for the president to reach out to that group this time around. will young voters turn out as heavily next year and support the president in such big numbers? erick erickson is the editor in chief and get out the vote organization targeting youths that has been approached by the obama team. and cornell belcher. the president is out on the road and trying to appeal to different constituencies but making an appeal to young voters trying to take all the technological advances he made in the last campaign to make them even better. >> we will make these changes work for students who are in college right now. we're going to put them into effect not two years from now, not three years from now, but we'll put them into effect right now. because our economy needs it right now and your future can use a boost right now. >> that's the president's appeal. today not his technological appeal. matthew, this is the president using this official event here, not a campaign event trying to say, listen, i'll help you pay off your college loans. when you talk to people who you associate with now, 60% of the vote last time. can the president expect anywhere near that number this time? >> if the president continues to invest his time, energy and resource in young numbers, they will be there for him. simply this is a transformative politician who talked about taking on a system that is bought off and if he can continue that messagic we'll be there for him. and yet, cornell 18.1% unemployment rate and the youngest in that group, 18.1% unemployment rate, i don't care how much you target people, if you have that tough of an economic situation, either some people aren't going to vote or blame the person in charge. >> they are a tough group, but a critical group. 11% of the electorate and we changed it to face the electorate and we did it with younger voters and minority voters and we ran a 30-point margin with that electorate. we changed the electorate in some battleground states. he has to have that vote. but at the same time, when you look at those unemployment numbers it's interesting because the voters who are most opmystic about the direction of the country are the younger voters and they're frustrated about washington in general, but they're not blaming the president, but they're frustrated by the way washington acts and channel that frustration into participation again. >> let me break this down, there's a who and a what. let's start with the who. no offense to john mccain, a contrast that played out in favor of president obama. he was the younger candidate and more in tune with technology, not only spoke the language of these voters and who would you look at the republican field as the best chance of chipping into that 66%? >> can i go with none of the above? i think that the person most likely to chip into that is the president himself. you know, a lot of the rhetoric we're hearing from the democrats right now and turning out the youth vote they also said in 2010, the difference was he was on the ballot in 2010 but they tried very, very hard. the president towards the end of the campaign and i remember cornell being upset with a lot of union leaders saying he was a wasting his time doing it. the youth vote didn't turn out in 2010. a great deal of apathy right now and the president can excite them better than any of the republicans can. youth typically lean more towards the democrats to begin with until they get out of the workforce. but at the same time, they want to have something and they become much more cynical since 2008. >> eric makes an important point, i'll bring you into the conversation. you look at stan greenburg for democratic polling group. 40% approve of the president's job's performance and the success of some of them aren't going to vote for him. >> approval doesn't necessarily mean support. look, i don't approve of most of the politicians in washington right now, but i'll support the president and here's the thing, erick is absolutely right. >> you're invested in the democratic party. a lot of voters -- >> i'm going to, they were invested in barack obama and there's a difference. erick is absolutely right. that 11% of the new electorate, they were obama voters. they had chosen not to vote before and made a rational decision. they were obama voters, not democrat voters and the democratic party laz to work harder to bring them in. >> cornell makes an interesting point. four out of ten young people today don't even identify with political parties. so, hyperpartisanship that is turning my generation off. so, we're lisening to the candidates who are talking to us on the issues of the day, which are jobs, jobs, jobs. now, you look at the occupy colleges and occupy wall street protests that are happening across the country and they're happening for a reason. defaulting on a promise that if you go to education, if you go, you go to higher education and you take out all this debt and these student loans that you're going to graduate with a job that will be there for you. the president is speaking out on things that he can do with executive privilege to make it easier and put more money in the pockets of young people. >> if you want to counter the president, you could have an argument saying he promised you hope. where is had hope? he promised you change. washington is just as bad, if not worse. you have to have an inspirational person to do it, to compete with him. >> you know, we look at, we could look at youth voters or hispanic voters or jewish voters and separate demographic blocks. they vote together and that is one reason, frankly, herman cain is shining so well right now. he probably won't be the nominee given his fund-raising and given his organization. he is the only republican right now that is resonating across lines that the proverbial happy warrior. you listen to rick perry or newt gingrich and you hear someone who is rather angry and you listen to herman cain, you hear a guy who is happy. he may step in on occasion, but he's happy. the republicans are going to have to, whoever their nominee is, make their message a happy warrior message not a doom and gloom message. >> you're nodding in agreement. >> that's spot on. they want to be inspired. they want to be hopeful. they're fundamentally americans. they want to be optimistic about the future. what we feel is the anger from the tea party that turns them off. no one has a rating -- >> those people at those protests are angry, too. >> the occupy protests are angry that the system is more accountable to bankers and big businesses who bought off our democracy than it is to the middle class people. it is just a simple message. >> matthew, thanks for joining us. stay in touch during the campaign. next, the reporter, did he really do anything wrong? 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[ female announcer ] the travelocity guarantee. from the price to the room to the trip you'll never roam alone. u.s. senate officials are looking into questions by the vice president's office over a conservative journalist's tactics touring a recent interview about crime numbers the vice president brought up while campaigning.son matera go to the vice president by misrepresenting himself. take a look, here's the full exchange. >> do you regret using a rape reference to describe -- >> i didn't use, no. what i said, let's get it straight, don't screw around with me -- >> did you use a rape reference? >> no, listen to me. >> i'm listening. >> i said rape was up, three times. there are the numbers, go look at the numbers. murder's up. rape is up. burglary's up. that's exactly what i said. >> and if the republicans don't pass this bill rape will continue to rise? >> murder will continue to rise, rape will continue to rise, all crimes will continue to rise. >> do you think it's appropriate for the vice president to use language -- >> we've got to go, i'm sorry. >> jason matera is with us, cornell and eric are with us as well. jason, i want to get to the confrontation. it is a perfectly fair, legitimate question of the vice president. do you regret your questions, that's a fair question. as a journalist, do you think it's fair to say, hey, do you want to take the vice president, essentially posing as a tourist or a staffer, someone trying to take a picture -- >> i was wearing my media badge. >> where were you wearing your badge? >> where was i wearing my badge? on my belt loop. >> visible to the vice president? >> of course. the vice president and his office is trying to divert attention from his flat-out lie about rape surging across the country, in flint, michigan particularly, trying to have that attention placed on these tactics. there's more media attention to the tactic than originally on biden's claim -- >> we've covered the claim and we'll cover it in a minute -- >> after that exchange. >> our ted barrett was there, witnessed it as news, he called it in -- >> there's more coverage of this exchange from the media than there was biden's original coverage -- >> ourish wasatch was the statistic and your request questioning of it. do you think it's right, you misrepresented yourself -- >> no, i didn't. >> you said a picture of you -- >> a journalist can't take pictures with the vice president? >> i think it's unethical, at a letter session, a christmas party. but at a public place is to say, compose with me, i'm your buddy, then ask a question. do you think that's fair? >> i'm looking to get politicians, who are used to spin and their messaging teams, i'm trying to get an honest reaction, a frank answer, a gut reaction. so much of the media is made up of drones who gave biden a pass over his original comment -- >> i'm not a drone, i'm not perfect but i'm not a drone, and i give your magazine a lot of credit for what it does. and i have for years. however, however, you don't think as a journalist -- we disagree. i they your question is a fair one. you think as a journalist you can misrepresent yourself to get access? >> i identified myself as human events -- >> you did not. >> at the end they asked -- >> at the end. >> i'm wearing a badge -- i would start saying, mr. vice president, john king from cnn, a question. >> the vice president could shrug it off. i got him in a gut reaction, asked the question that no other people in the media asked. let's not kid ourselves. this outrage is funny. cbs, abc have been doing undercover sting operations, mike wallace won emmys and peabodys for ambush journalism and it was heralded. in a public place with hordes of media i ask a question -- >> the vice president -- >> a rape reference and oh my gosh, this is a confrontation. >> the vice president worked in that building as a senator for 36 years, he knows the risks. any complaint i view as whining frankly. however, it's my personal opinion. i would never do that. but let's get to the point. the heart of the matter was this is the vice president in flint, michigan. this is what's at issue. >> in 2008, when flint had 265 sworn officers on their police force, there were 35 murders and 91 rapes in the city. in 2010, when flint had only 144 police officers, the murder rate climbed to 65 and rapes, just to pick two categories, climbed to 229. in 2011, you now only have 125 shields. got only knows what the numbers will be this year for flint if we don't rectify it. >> now, factcheck.org looked at those numbers, we at cnn have looked at those numbers. rape, robbery are declining in spite of police layoffs in flint, michigan. the city police department said it gave the vice president those numbers. that's not excusing using bad numbers. the city says it gave him those numbers and they're trying so trace it. i want to bring you into the conversation. it is legitimate to question the vice president's numbers. do you think it's legitimate for somebody to essentially, my view, pose as a tourist or staffer, let's take a picture, then ask a question? >> well, full disclosure, jason's a colleague of mine, we both work for eagle publishing. new breed of journalism, bloggers and activists, across the board, we saw this in 2010 with a congressman in north carolina who got abusive with the individuals who were asking questions. you know, kudos to jason for getting the vice president in an unguarded moment. i think republicans and democrats on capitol hill and elsewhere have to be more careful about this. democrats who pay to sit in the tunnel between the senate and the capitol and try and get republicans on film. this is happening more and more. >> eric makes an important point. it's liberal groups that do this just as well, liberal publications a