Transcripts For CNNW American Morning 20111020

police and sheriff's officials in ohio after the owner of a preserve, game preserve, killed himself and let them loose on the town. the one monkey they couldn't find, police say the t cheetah, ate that monkey. >> authorities defending the decision to take those animals down. saying it was us or them. ja jason carol. >> reporter: so many questions this morning. why terry thompson the man that owned all the animals, why he opened the cages and set those animals free. knowing that many of them would most likely be killed. this is a manna by all accounts loved these animals. that's one of the major questions that investigators will be looking at this morning. in all, 49 animals killed. the pictures really tell the whole story. we see those pictures of those animals, wild exotic animals, killed out here. sheriff's deputies telling me they were sickened to have to do what they did to put the animals down but simply felt as though they had no choice. the story actually started to unfold tuesday, just about 5:00. that's when the 911 calls started coming in from people in the area calling the sheriff's department saying i see a bear on my property. i see a lion that just crossed my property. take a listen. >> 911. what's your emergency? >> yeah, there's a lion on mt. perry road in gratiot. >> i just drove by and it walked out in front of me. it was standing there under the street light. >> we will get somebody out in that area. if you see it again don't approach it. okay? >> reporter: sheriff's deputies were very familiar with thompson because in the past some of his animals had actually escaped before. so they knew exactly -- they knew exactly where to go. and one of the debates that's been occurring out here yesterday and even today has been why these animals had to be putt down. why were not tranquillizers used in trying to subdue some of the animals. yesterday i spoke with bash rolf wolf with the columbus zoo and has been working with animals all of her life. shoe told me what had happened when she came face to face a few feet from a tiger. >> about 11:00 we found one animal. this was the only animal that has been found alive in the last day. it was a tiger, 300-pound tiger, adult, hiding in the bushes. they took me down, special response team. took me down. hi the tranquilizer and had to approach the animal within 15 feet into the bushes. i did shoot with the tranqu tranquillizer dart. unfortunately ten seconds later it roared and got up and came toward me. the special response team had to shoot it. >> reporter: i think a lot of people don't realize it is not like in at the time movies you shoot an animal with a tranquillizer gun and the animal immediately passes out. it takes a long time depending upon the size of the animal for the drugs to get in the system and take effect. >> that's exactly right. we expected it to take five to ten minutes. an animal that's that agitated and afraid can fight off the effects of the drug. >> reporter: ohio's former governor, governor strickland, had legislation in place to try to restrict the ownership of exotic animals. that legislation was actually allowed to expire this past april. many questions about how that law was going to be enforced. that's one of the reasons the legislation was allowed to expire. ohio's current governor says he will be pushing through legislation to restrict the sale and ownership of exotic animals here. >> this morning so many people, animal lovers and people who just have been watching this story, are heartbroken these animals had to be killed. officials there are saying that there was simply no other choice. there was no other way to bring all of these wild animals in. >> reporter: right. if you think about what is involved in trying to tranquilize an animal, even if you hit that animal depending upon its size, how much it weighs, it still may have the opportunity to strike out at you or take off in a different direction. they only had a few hours of daylight to try to get all the animals under control. if an animal was tranquilized and then takes off and then can't find the animal and hide something place in the woods and wakes up and it is allowed to be free again, then you have a very dangerous situation on your hands which is why some of the sheriff's deputies out here felt as though they simply had no choice. >> just such a strange psychology behind this, too, as far as, you know, this thompson guy who owned all of these animals. we are going to get into that later as well. >> jason carroll reporting live from zanesville, ohio. take a look at this map from "usa today." the states in black ban privilege at ownership of exotic pets. the ones in dark blue ban owning some exotic animals. the states in light blue require licenses before you can own one. the states in white, including ohio, have no regulations other than veterinary documents. someone can buy from a breeder, a monkey, for example. or a bengal tiger. wildlife expert jack hanna said it is like noah's ark crashed in ohio. he's going to join us at 7:48. heart rendingly said that killing those tigers i there are only 1400 that exist and 18 were killed yesterday. >> i hope this will help with the psychology of the man who kept so many of these animals on their property. many were not in good shape. he didn't actually care for them as well as he could have. yet he loved them. i mean, it is such a strange story. >> in the end, the police say he took his own life but let all the animals going knowing could it put them in danger and other people in danger. what was he doing? why did this happen? what was the unraveling of this man? >> we may never know. jack hanna will be in the next hour of "american morning." fda may have isolated a source of a deadly listeria outbreak linked to cantaloupe. officials say unsanitary conditions at a processing plant in colorado list era outbreak blamed for 25 deaths and another 100 illnesses in 26 states. the tainted cant elopes were recalled last month. cdc says it is too soon to declare the outbreak officially over but fewer cases are being reported. republican presidential candidate rick perry is proposing a flat tax. so far perry is not offering details about how his plan would work. speaking yesterday he did say that he wanted to scrap the current tax code system. >> starting oar with something simple. a flat tax. i want to mauck the tax code so simple that even timothy geithner can file his taxes on time. that's simple. >> you remember forbes supported a flat tax during had you two presidential runs. >> no more mr. nice guy for herman cain after tuesday night's republican debate in las vegas. cain warned he would be taking the gloves off and going on the attack. he appeared last night on "piers morgan." he made ron paul his first target. >> i respect all the candidates up there. some more than others who i think would be better than others. >> who do you respect the most? >> i would say speaker gingrich and governor romney are the two that i have respect for. i would feel comfortable with. i am looking pretty good now but i have a lot of confidence in the type job they would do. >> who do you have the least respect for? >> let's just stick with the ones that i have -- >> no, no, no, no, no. come on. >> i don't believe representative ron paul would be a good president. >> why? >> because most of his ideas and positions are eliminate and end raern fix. we need to fix a lot of things in this country. i don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. we have more things we can fix than things we need to totally -- >> cain says he's rapidly on a campaign staff around the country and fully prepared to compete in the early voting states of new hampshire and iowa. secretary of state hillary clinton is heading to pakistan later today. her trip will follow this morning's surprise visit to afghanistan. clinton is meeting with afghan president karzai. on the agenda america's commitment to a stable and secure afghanistan. the trip follows her visit to libya. the first for an american diplomat since moammar gadhafi was forced from power. new developments out of lib libya. reuters is reporting the transitional government forces are claiming to have captured moammar gadhafi's hometown and the last major stronghold front line commander says they are trying to chase down any of gadhafi's forces trying to run away. the takeover comes almost three months after gadhafi was ousted from power. there has been a fourth arrest in the case of four mentally disabled adults found locked in a basement boiler room last weekend in philadelphia. 32-year-old jane mcintosh is facing multiple charge including kidnapping. she is the daughter of linda ann weston who has already been arrested in the case. police say the suspects held their victims captive in an apartment house basement so they could steal their social security checks. prosecutors at the michael jackson death trial set to rest their case today against jackson's doctor, conrad murray. final witness presented dramatic testimony, showing jurors a video of showing how to administer propofol properly and telling them none of the safeguards were used by dr. murray at jackson's home which contributed to his death. >> when dr. murray agreed to treat insomnia with propofol. when he showed up every night with bottles of propofol and bags of saline, he was not putting michael jackson first. he was putting dr. murray first. >> murray's defense which claims jackson gave himself the failed dose of propofol will begin its case tomorrow. the jury could begin deliberations sometime next week. >> more legal trouble for lindsay lohan. she was led out of court in handcuffs after a judge revoked her probation for failing to fulfill her community service at a women's shelter. lohan later posted bail. the judge ruled she must now do community service at the l.a. county morgue. before her probation violation hearing in two weeks where she could face more jail time. french president sarkozy is celebrating the birth of his fourth child. it is a girl. it is the first child for sarkozy with his wife of three years, he has three children from a previous marriage. let's talk sports now. my favorite part of morning. st. louis cardinals are up 1-0 in the world series. they beat the texas rangers 3-2 last night in game one of the fall classic. he came off the bench to drive in the winning run. congratulations, st. louis fans. up next on "american morning" -- >> let's get it straight. don't screw around with me. >> joe versus the reporter. why the vice president took exception to a question about the tactic he is using to sell his boss' jobs bill. using your money to make money. where to put your hard-earned cash to get the most rewards for your risk. price check on honey. adorable black bear cub goes shopping. this video. >> grocery store. >> love this. right after the break. 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[ male announcer ] we're making them a better financial future. what can we make with you? transamerica. transform tomorrow. 15 minutes past the hour. welcome back to "american morning." the battle over the president's jobs bill triggering a tenth confrontation between vice president joe biden and a reporter from a conservative news organization. biden has been pushing the president's jobs plan by rising crime statistics in cities where police officers have been laid off. listen to him making that point yesterday following by his encounter with a reporter. >> many cities, the result has been it is not unique, murder rates are up, robberies are up, rapes are up. >> do you redegree using a rape reference to describe republican opposition to the president's bill? >> that's not what i said. let me -- listen to me. >> i'm listening. >> i said rape was up three times. they are the numbers. go look at the numbers. murder is up. rape is up and burglaries. that's exactly what i said. >> if the republicans don't pass this bill then rape will continue to rise. >> murder will continue to rise, rape will continue to rise, all crimes will continue to rise. >> do you think it is appropriate for the vice president to use language in such -- >> got to go. sorry. we've got to go. >> according to the majority leader harry reid the senate could vote on the president's $35 billion jobs bill which includes money for teachers and first responders. they could vote on that bill tonight or tomorrow. >> you have been complaining about banks and complaining they are not getting money p perfect spending money on fees and banks. never before have savers been rewarded so little for stashing their money in a bank account or cd. is there anywhere to park your money? least risky to most risky. first of all, your mattress. people do it. least risky but it is a really bad idea. it is not guaranteed by the federal government. your money won't grow in your mattress. inflation means your money gets less valuable every year you leave it. what about the bank? putting your money in the bank. it is insured up to $250,000 per account. the con, you are getting a half a percent in interest in your money that's sitting in the bank. unless you have a rocking online bank and there are some, you have a lot of money stashed in a jumbo check account or combined savings checking and investment accounts, you are not getting squat. next option, slightly more risky, this is stocks with dividends. the company pays you money, carol, pays you interest on each share you own. one example, altria, cigarette company of philip morris, 6%. american pfizer are going to pay you dividend, 5%. you want to make sure you are looking for large cap, blue chip stocks, history of raising dividends over the years. go to something called exchange traded funds. here are a few of those for you. they have more risk but can have high yield. you can pick a basket of stocks basically that trade just like this. under these ticker symbols and they are going to give you yields as well. then there is high yield mutual funds. lot of people using professional adviser to help them do this. mutual funds is where you contribute money to mutual fund with lots of other small investors, manager buys and sells stocks. these sorts of mutual funds focus on high yields. taking your money and parking it somewhere and hoping to get returns from it. >> you only make money -- you have to -- on riskier things. there is nowhere safe to put your money. >> if you are somebody living on a fixed income you are really having a hard time because inrates are so low. no one is paying to you put your money in a cd, put your money in a bank account. a generation ago when the economy was rocky you got paid for putting your money in a safe place. no more. that's something that's really -- really hurts a lot of people that are savers and don't like to take big risks. >> or people that don't have all that much money to invest in the other things. no recourse for them. >> we have an economy that's really geared against savers right now. that's a real problem. there are a few places to make money with money. i will say that are are online banks giving better returns and you are getting half percent in a bank account. so you have to do your homework. >> christine, thanks. ing with all the bad animal news in the show today, here is something to lift your spirits. take a look. baby bear in the produce aisle. look at that. the animal walked through the automatic doors and wound up crawling around the veggies. this was actually in alaska where black bears are known to show up in very strange places and no, no one kept this bear as a pet. the bear lives in the wild but decided to take a detour into the grocery store for veggies. rob marciano has the morning off. reynolds wolf is in the extreme weather center. it is chilly in the midwest this morning. >> chilly. even for bears like that. not too happy with the bear pictures. horrible to see the bears, they always use expired coupons and cut in lines. when the bagger asks pitcher or plastic they just growl. >> and they get away with it. >> they are so cute p today, speaking of bears, may be a day you want to hiber nature if you are in the windy city. chicago, a rough time. delays all but a certainty. upwards of an hour. wind, rain and then that's something you will deal with not just in the windy city of chicago but new york metro, d.c. metro, all of them. philadelphia, backups there. also in boston. detroit you may have a rough time. something else that may cause you to move sort of slowly this morning. the cold air. we have plenty of it. across parts of the nation, midsection back into portions of the western great lakes and deep south. we expect the freeze warnings and advisories to be in effect through friday morning. temperatures well below normal. current temperatures wrap things up, 37 in minneapolis. 37 in denver. 48 degrees in new orleans and 63 in tampa. 66 in new york. home of the bears, chicago bears, by the way, 43 degrees. expect rain to lift out later in the day as everything drifts off to the northeast. new york get ready. rain is on the way. back out to the west. plenty of sunshine in the northwest rain and nice and balmy for new parts of southern florida and four corners. that's a wrap of the forecast. let's pitch it back to you. >> thank you. we appreciate it. >> coming up, starbucks going blond. why their coffee is getting a makeover. 22 minutes past the hour. 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[ male announcer ] layaway's back for christmas in our toys, electronics, and jewelry departments. quaker oatmeal is a super grain. ♪ it gives me warmth. ♪ [ boy ] it gives me energy to help me be my best. quaker oatmeal has whole grains for heart health. and it has fiber that helps fill me up. ♪ [ male announcer ] great days start with quaker oatmeal. energy. fiber. heart health. quaker oatmeal. a super grain breakfast. i tell you what i can spend. i do my best to make it work. i'm back on the road safely. and i saved you money on brakes. that's personal pricing. welcome back. the fed's latest report on the economy says the economy is growing. but at a slow pace. the outlook pushed u.s. stocks lower yesterday. also growing doubts overnight about the effectiveness of the new e.u. bailout fund. pushing markets lower. u.s. futures still up. investors are waiting to get a new read on the economy in about two hours. that's when we will see just how many people filed for jobless claims for the first time last week. the economists expect that number to be slightly lower than the week before. anger over the country's economic crisis boiling over in the streets of athens, greece. the greek parliament -- expected to take the final vote on a new round of top austerity measures to bring down the country's national debt. the people will bear the brunt of that vote and are very unhappy about it. we are waiting for a bunch of new earnings report. at&t, macgraw hill, "the new york times," philip morris international will all release third-quarter results before the bell. citigroup agreeing to pay a $285 million to settle claims that the bank led investors in 2007. the government charging citigroup with marketing and selling securities tied to the struggling u.s. housing market and then betting against those securities to rake in profits of $160 million while investors were wiped out. soon you will be able to go back into starbucks and ask for a tall sweet blond. i'm not kidding. the coffee chain will offer a new blond blend. it is a lighter roast for people that can't stomach the dark stuff. "american morning" will be right back. welcome to idaho, where they grow america's favorite potatoes. everyone knows idaho potatoes taste great. but did you know they're good for you too? they're high in vitamins and potassium. and idaho potatoes are now certified to carry the heart checkmark from the american heart association for foods low in saturated fat and cholesterol. so they're good for my family, and for yours. heart smart idaho potatoes. always look for the grown in idaho seal. it is 30 minutes past p hour. welcome back. time for your top storiesful 48 safari animals shot dead by police in ohio after the suicidal owner of the preserve killed himself and let the animals loose on the town. defending the decision to take the animals down. >> the fda says unsanitary conditions at a cantaloupe packing elephant colorado may have contributed to the nation's deadliest listeria outbreak. investigators found low levels of listeria on equipment inside the plant. along with pools of watt other the floor. listeria outbreak is blamed for at least 25 deaths in 26 states. that facility had just passed an inspection. rick perry's economic speech which he is supposed to give next week. speaking yesterday, though the republican presidential candidate said he plans to introduce a flat tax and while perry was short on specifics, he did say he wants to throw out the current tax code and start over with something much simpler. >> another day of rage in greece. a massive general strike virtually shut down the country. the greek parliament build has been the scene of violent crashes between riot police and protesters angry over a new wave of government austerity measures. let's head to greece. diana is there. give us an update. i think she is frozen in time in athens. she turned into a greek statue. >> tragedy unfolding. we could do so many of those terrible puns. i will say something about the thing that happening there. they had riots before. but this is -- aprotest before. but people there really feel as though they are the -- live pictures. people feel like they are really bearing the brunt of a government that made promises it couldn't keep. people have to bear the brunt of that. they just don't think it is fair. you have all kinds of austerity measures going in there. s layoffs in the public sector, there will be retirement ages, people get less money in retirement. they are going to have to pay more in taxes. all kinds of things that are going to really hit people right away. >> yeah. we will get back to january a shortly when we get those technical issues sorted out. the weather did not dampen the mood at the park. the wall street protesters have been camping out for 34 days now. these are live pictures of the protesters. the crowd a little bit smaller than usual. yesterday most of the people were just trying to stay dry. we also have new pictures this morning of alec baldwin. you will remember i told you yesterday he stopped by lower manhattantur hahattan briefly t the protesters. he may be one of the biggest rock stars but john bon jovi is joan forgiving back. no prices on the menu. diners pay whatever they are able to. those without money can still eat provided they are willing to work in the restaurant or perform some sort of community service. ahead on "american morning," republican race is getting personal and nasty. a decision in the fraud case. partly cloudy skies pitting "happy days" against cbs. there is a solution, resolution, i should say. we will tell you what it is. come on in. 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[ male announcer ] helping people achieve without limits. at the hartford it's what we do... and why we're the founding partner of the u.s. paralympic team. show your support at facebook.com/thehartford. it is 36 minutes past the hour. welcome back to "american morning." turns out tuesday night's republican debate in las vegas may have been a game changer. the race important the republican nomination just got nasty with rick perry lashing out admit romney and former massachusetts governor showing no reluctance to return fire while herman cain stayed above the free and is promising to kick it into attack mode going forward. let's talk about the tone of the race and where it is headed with ed rowlands. john avalon, senior polite columnist with "newsweek" and "the daily beast." good morning. let's start with the nastiness between rick pairy and mitt romney. do you think it will con? will they straighten things out n. >> they don't get along. >> no, no, they don't like each other. >> you look at rick perry's eyes. i mean, this was -- this could have gotten physical if they were in high school. that's okay. they got -- this time it was personal. that's one of the things i think caused the fireworks with that debate. it wasp just policy. >> there has been criticism about anderson cooper should have stepped in and stopped the fight. >> i thought anderson did a very good job. rick perry is the son of a farmer that had nothing, scrapped his entire life to get to where he was. he never has been defeated in 25 years in texas politics. governor for three terms. ten years. he sees a guy like romney who had everything handed to him. his dad was a governor. a dad that was rich. everything was handed to him. even the organization of the governor's association perry has been governor of, romney was the chairman of it, he quit midterm in his four-year term because he couldn't get re-elected and started running for president to use the resources. he goes way back. the ideological difference. i'm sure what perry is did is i'm not going to let the conservative wing of may party, i'm not going to let this guy walk off and not get a glove laid on him. the tone was set. this is going to be the immediate -- it may not a public display like it was there but a down and nasty race. >> okay. let's talk about herman cain. they beat him up early on in the debate. they sort of left him alone. everybody is talking about how rick perry called herman cain brother. it was a very interesting article about herman cane and how exactly the other republican candidates are having trouble criticizing him or fighting back. i'm going to read you a bit. they are in a bind like most candidates cain is an elusive target. had is not a politics with a record to pick apart. rather he is a highly likable figure who seems to be tapping into a deep vain of anti-washington anger without seeming very angry himself. there's also a complicated factor. he is a viable african-american candidate in a party that has a complicated history with racial politics. complicated history. >> that is true. herman cain, runs real risk because he's the most likable guy in the field. right now he has that surge. most significant thing that happened in the last six weeks you have the 22-point swing from rick perry to herman cain and a lot of the fighting will be over what happen was that 20% as the alternative to romney vote. but also, herman cain, the pack descended on the 9-9-9 plan. but give him a lot of credit for resetting the tone of the presidential campaign and debate with a policy idea because now what's happening rick perry is put, forward his flat texas plan this week. direct response to 9-9-9. an important policy initiative. >> as far as attacking herman cain -- let's talk about mitt romney. >> you can't attack herman cain. you do so at great risk. the party -- segment of the electorate he represents is much of the tea party, very important long term. you may take that vote back because you can see as the winner which perry or someone else may be able to do but you don't attack it. he is someone that's become symbolic in the course of the primary and people love him and at the end of the campaign people still are going to love him and very important part of that movement. i think that you do so at your own risk. >>er herman cain told me in las vegas that he is going to go on the attack. he is going to get nasty. >> big mistake on his part. >> really? >> big mistake. he is a motivational speaker. he is a likable man. why base you cannily get down in the trenches? he's not -- gotten ahead by being mean and nasty. he has gotten ahead by being articulate. >> the moment romney and perry crashed, there was booing for both guys. generally for getting down in the mud. i don't think anyone came out looking good. in the back of his mind, romney thought he was ripping off that ronald reagan line -- i paid for this microphone. there is a danger there and comes off instead as sorted of uptight and angry. herman p cain is staying above the fray and being a likable guy. that's the best place for him to be at. >> he has them. let's talk about joe biden for was just bit. surprising. joe biden was talking about the part of the president's jobs fwhal would fund police offers and fire fighters and was saying that if congress doesn't pass that part of the bill, that we would have to lay off police and fire fighters and that would make the crime rate go up as far as murder rate and also the rape that occurs in the different jurisdictions. after this speech, there was a reporter from a conservative news source that confronted joe biden. let's watch. >> do you regret using the rape reference -- >> let's get it straight, guys. don't screw around with me. let's get it straight. no. let me -- listen to me. >> i'm listening. >> i said rape was up three times. there are the numbers. go look at the numbers. murder is up. rape is up. burg i have up. that's exactly what i said. >> if the republicanps don't pass this bill, then rape will continue to rise. >> murder will continue to rise. rape will con to rise. all crimes will con to rise. >> do you think it is appropriate for the vice president to use language and -- >> we have to go. i'm sorry. we have to go. >> isn't that the role of the federal government to hire police? the absurdity of that, local decision being made, you know, bottom line is protecting the public. cities, states. >> i think -- i respectfully disagree with my friend. when clinton had the crime bill giuliani helped rally for it. putting the extra cops on the streets, one of the things that end helped reduce crime in this n this case joe biden is talking about one of the seven major crime categories. there is no reason why the vice president shouldn't use language like that. if you try to create negotiations and put a gun to people's heads if you don't do what we want, it will translate into the human suffering, you can have the debate whether that's extortive. there is a role for the government to play. >> we can agree to disagree about that part of it. the confrontation afterwards the way joe biden handled it, some democrats are saying -- joe biden again. >> that's joe biden. you have to always go back eight years ago, four years ago when we were in this very critical place in iowa. this guy went out and delivered 1% of the vote. put on the ticket. he's -- joe biden is joe biden. outside of delaware, never been a big draw for the reason he has a tendency to pop out. >> you don't think he should be replaced by hillary clinton? >> i would -- i would basically think if i was a democrat which i'm not, i was a -- their strategist, that would be the first move i would make. she would energize that base in that party. >> you can see -- he always wanted to be secretary of state. when we get to that replacing the ticket speculation we are moving so far ahead of the ball. >> they don't want our advice. mere fact i say that has put hillary further in the hole. >> she will retire. thanks for being with us this morning. >> they don't want his advice. it is 44 minutes after the hour. still ahead, pages of "vogue" to your closet the latest designer clothes, they can be yours and the price is right. brooke baldwin shows us how a revolutionary golf ball is making a splash in this week's solutions. maine is home to some of the best lobster fishing. bringing in millions of dollars each and every year. but what's left behind is a lot of waste. so researchers at the university of maine have come up with a way to put it to use. and it sounds like a hit. up can't hear the difference but this ball is made of recycling lobster shells. it is 100% bio degradable. >> we took the concept and reduced it and made a product out of it. look like a golf ball, perform like a real golf ball as much as possible. >> reporter: the ball breaks down in the ocean and just about two weeks time and could be used for driving ranges on cruise ships. and the lobster fishing industry could really feel the swing. >> we are taking something that used to go to the landfill and now has value. >> reporter: the balls are being handmade in the lab at the university of maine working on plans to get them into mass production and into the water soon. brooke baldwin, cnn, atlanta. [ shapiro ] at legalzoom, you can take care of virtually all your important legal matters in just minutes. now it's quicker and easier for you to start your business... protect your family... and launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. 47 minutes past the hour. here is what you need to know to start your day. 49 safari animals, lions, tigers, cheetahs, grizzlies, shot dead by police in ohio after the suicidal owner of a preserve killed himself after letting them loose on the town. republican presidential hopeful rick perry says he wants to scrap the current tax code and replace it with a flat tax. perry will speak more about his proposals when he unveils house economic plan next week. secretary of state hillary clinton will head to pakistan later today after meeting with afghanistan's president and other government officials there. she arrived in afghanistan unannounced after visiting libya yesterday. police say that five men from france were arrested for breaking into a courthouse in san antonio at 1:30 in the morning. they may have been pulling a prank. the fbi and homeland security are on the case to make sure there was no inform terror plot involved. cbs says it is thrilled after a california judge threw out a lawsuit by cast members of the hit tv show "happy days." the cast was accusing the network of committing fraud by not paying them for years of merchandising sales. the fresh prince returning to philly will smith owns a minority stake in the philadelphia 76ers. will and his wife are part after group that just bought that team. that's the news you need to start your day. "american morning" back right after this. welcome back to "american morning." for fashion conscious women it is like a dream come true. the latest designer dresses and accessories for just a fraction of the retail price. >> right. being online changed everything, hasn't it? rent the runway creation of a couple of savvy fashionistas and frugalistas. poppy harlow joins with us that story. good morning. >> good morning. look what i'm wearing today. this is a product of i oh, my gosh, there is nothing in my closet. what's interest sing this is how this company started. jen and jenny, two harvard business school students started this company rent the runway because one of their sisters looked in her closet and said i have nothing to wear. all women have gone through this. it has resulted in a fascinating and very, very lucrative business for these two. take a look. robert rodriguez. they are all here inside this non-descript new jersey warehouse. well, the designers aren't here but thousands of their latest props are. ready to be rented out at a fraction of the retail. >> right now on our racks we have close to 35,000 dresses. we have close to 20,000 accessories. >> reporter: a product in the great recession rent the runway brought high fashion to, well, main street. >> this dress is a dress that actually kim kardashian and jennifer aniston just wore. >> reporter: it is yours for $175. for a few days at least. >> the fact that you can wear it and then not have to worry about dry-cleaning and it sending it back, it can be shared with someone else, i think it is ingenious. >> reporter: they launched rent the runway as students at harvard business school two years ago testing the idea on undergrads. >> we knew we had something. one girl put on a sparkly dress and she twirled around in the mirror. >> i heard you didn't have a business plan. >> anti-business plan. >> reporter: why? >> we think that so many people sit around all day and strategize and don't act. by no means has this business ever been perfect. i think our site has gone down more than any other site on the web. >> reporter: they caught the eye of major backers to the tune of more than $31 million. 1.4 million members and growing. it is projecting three times last year's sales. >> this day and age with facebook and twitter and all the pictures being taken, the staples weren't cutting. >> it we have an an litt y-- analytical team. >>. >> reporter: why would designers sell you the dresses so you can rent them instead of having customers buy their dresses? why do they do that? >> a customer acquisition tool for the designer brands where younger customers are renting from us and are buying their dresses. >> reporter: the most popular brand says the partnership brought in a new awareness level to the brand. if this model proves successful in the long run, you can bet on seeing a lot more than dresses from these two. >> we have all of the technology to support and it we can go into many different categories. that's where the business expands. we go from people renting a few times a year to renting dozens of times a year. >> they talked about expansion. and i asked the girls what they meant by that. i thought this was very interesting. they said look, we have the tools, technology, to do this. we are going to expand hugely, not just in fashion. you are going on vacation and want to rent scuba gear, nice camera. that might -- what they do next which i found fascinating. now, you have to see this business model work. very high front end cost. have you all that inventory. if it proves successful this could go zbinternational. they have competition. it would be fascinating to see if people really change their habits not just for gowns and dresses but for things that they don't need every day. >> bridesmaids dresses, too. >> wedding dresses. >> that's a really good idea. >> why not? >> rent a vera wang. >> that would be awesome. >> absolutely. bridesmaids dresses, you don't have to buy one for every wedding. excellent. poppy, what a great business thought. great story. ahead in the next hour, jack hanna will be with us. he joined the effort top round up dozens of wild and rare and extremely dangerous animals from a tiny ohio town. we will tell you what it is really like. why all of those animals had to, you know, be shot and killed. he has a lot to say. there's only one bottle left ! i've got to tell susie ! the vending machine on elm is almost empty. i'm on it, boss. new pony ? sorry ! we are open for business. let's reroute greg to fresno. growing businesses use machine-to-machine technology from verizon wireless. susie ! the vending machine... already filled. cool bike. because the business with the best technology rules. ♪ kingdoms and queens ♪ they all bow down to you ♪ ♪ branches and ranch hands ♪ are bowin', too ♪ and i've taken off... [ man ] we could have gone a more traditional route... but it wouldn't have been nearly as memorable. ♪ here comes the sun again i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover. but i am a voter. so washington... before you even think about cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits... and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day. ♪ consumers er wanchai ferry orange chicken... over p.f. chang's home menu orange chicken women men and uh pandas... elbows mmm [ male announcer ] wanchai ferry, try it yourself. officials in ohio say they didn't want to do it but had no choice. dozens of wild animals let loose by their owner killed in order to protect the public. crowds chant on the streets at a krit can a vote as lawmakers in greece try to save the country from financial wounds. damaging testimony in the conrad murray trial. a medical expert saying the doctor is directly to blame for michael jackson's death. then this. >> let's get straight, guys, don't screw around with me. >> vice president joe biden trying to keep his cool after being confronted by a reporter. on this "american morning." all right. good morning, everyone. it is thursday, october 20. welcome to "american morning" this thursday. >> yeah. let's start in ohio. 49 wild animals, lions, tigers, cheetahs, grizzlies, wolves, shot dead by police in ohio after the owner of a preserve let them loose and then killed himself. jason carroll live in zanesville, ohio, where authorities are defending their decision to take the animals down saying it was us or them. good morning, jason. >> reporter: good morning. so many questions this morning, carol. namely why terry thompson and -- a man by who a all accounts loved those animals and cared for them for many years, why he opened their cages and set them free and then took his own life. outrage and anger in zanesville, ohio, this morning after 49 lions, tigers and other wild animals were killed after being freed by a farm from a suicidal owner. newly released 911 tapes give us a glimpse into how serious it was. >> there's a lion on mt. perry road. >> there is a big horse farm on the right. it was standing there. >> we got one of those lions that are missing out of muskingum county. >> we will get somebody out in that area. if you see it again don't approach it, okay. >> the sheriff here shedding light on why it was so difficult to round up these animals. and why they were operating under orders to shoot to kill. >> if this had been a 9:00 incident in the middle of the day, odds are high we pay have been able to surround the area and keep everything contained. but our biggest problem we had in this whole thing was nightfall. we had about an hour to an hour and a half of good light and, you know, we had several animals roaming free on this property going into darkness and we just couldn't take that chance. >> reporter: we are learning more about the farm owner terry thompson. he was convicted of animal cruelty in november 2005. released from prison just last month after serving time on an illegal firearms conviction. the police had been to his home several times before to address the animal issue. they were never able to shut it down. the ohio governor now responding to questions why a law was allowed to expire which regulated the sale and ownership of exotic animals here. >> what had been proposed was not very workable. you don't want to just put something out and not have the infrastructure ordeal with all of the complications that are connected to this. as a result of that we formed a working group. got to move faster now. and at the end of the day, there will be legislation. >> reporter: in all at least 49 animals were killed, shot dead by the police. they and animal experts say they simply had no choice. >> i did shoot with a tranquillizer debt. unfortunately ten seconds later it roared and got up and came towards me. the special response team had to shoot it. >> reporter: when i was speaking to barbara wolf about that yesterday, the woman who you just heard, she said she was simply sickened to have to take down that tiger. that's really how so many of the animal control specialists who were out here felt as well as the sheriff's deputies. >> these are people that work in this industry and veterinarians there and the people -- like jack hanna and others, they do the work because they love animals. >> you have to imagine this gigantic wild animal charging you. what would you do? you would protect yourself. that's what the sheriff's deputies are trying to do out there. >> reporter: yeah. i spoke to one sheriff's deputy who told me at one point he was trying to chase down a very large and had no choice but to take it down. then he went back to a house where a woman had called 911 and was confronted by another animal there. and this h to take down another one. he said it just broke his heart because he said these animals were simply doing what they do. >> jason carroll, we will talk much more about this. thanks, jason. why was this man allowed to have all of those animals? what needs to be changed? what about the legislation the governor was talking about? >> working group was not working fast enough to get this done. >> we will ask jack hanna all of those questions. he has been meeting with the governor of ohio and will get into the psychology of the man who felt the need to own all of these wild animals. we will tray to answer those questions for you. >> why did he let them all go? day two of a national strike in athens of more massive crowds taking to the streets. new video. protesters calm now but very angry with the greek government, expected to finalize austerity plan today that calls for tax increases and pension and salary cuts and suspension of collective labor contracts. demonstrations turned violent wednesday. at least six protesters and 15 police officers were hurt. diana is in athens with the latest. this has been just a bubbling of disappointment and outrage from the zbreek people as the government is frantically trying to fix its problems, to avoid going bankrupt. >> reporter: as the government tries to fix its problems at the expense of the people, the people say they feel that their government is not acting in their interests. but against their interests. you see that -- hear the same kind of outrage you do on occupy wall street. there is a democratic -- why aren't politicians acting in our interests, the interests of capitalism, the interests of the banks. as you said yesterday, there was a degree of violence that's generally at these kinds of demonstrations. there was back in june when the second day -- now, though, there are about 50,000 people out in the streets in the scare. completely filled with demonstrators. the at months for so far has been peaceful. there is outrage and also a sense of calm. >> thank you so much, diana, in greece. what would happen if greece leads the euro zone? >> if any done trip wanted to leave the euro zone, it would have to address a huge number of complicated issues. let's take the situation, for example, for greece. first of all, would its departure even be legal for -- according to the euro zone, technically the answer is no. but if greece wanted to go back , there isn't anything anybody could do about it. the question then is where would it get them from? without it need to print millions of notes overnight and deliver the money to every bank business and atm in the country. next unknown is this. how would greeks react? take this scene from "mary poppins" and people start to panic. they think their money is no longer safe. they get a run on the banks. the same scene could play out in greece. millions of people demanding their savings right away. what if you agree? mortgage, for example, german bank, that needs to be paid back in euros. all of those loans would be need to be restructured or as they say in the markets forgiven. some economists say if greece is going stronger euro zone countries like germany and france, should exit first, leading to a meltdown of the entire euro zone and its currency. >> german chancellor amerimerke trying to keep it from melting down. interestingly just yesterday he was rushing from the bedside of his wife who is giving birth back to these talks that were fracturing about exactly what the european bailout system should look like. very, very tense day yesterday. congratulation. >> just the last few hours, moammar gadhafi's hometown has fallen. the sou the city of sirte, only pockets of resistance remain. a frontline commander say they are trying to chase down any of gad -- gadhafi's forces. new this morning, angry l.a. county judge revoked actress lindsay lohan's probation for failing to complete community service at a woman's center. >> i am revoking her probation pending a hearing. i am also setting bail at $100,000. and miss lohan, if she bails out she is to immediately before the next hearing, if she wants to mitigate any potential sentence, if she is found in violation, do a minimum of 16 hours at the morgue. >> the troubled actress was led out of the courtroom in hand cuffs and posted $100,000 bail. she's due back in court in two weeks. >> love how she walked out of that courtroom with a big swish going on. yeah. let's talk sports now. nba owners and players, mediator going back for a third straight day of talks. they held a 16-hour session tuesday. the commissioner david stern has already canceled first two weeks of the regular season. deadlocked over salaries. the commissioner claims the league lost $300 million last week. st. louis cardinals are 1-0 in the world series. beat the rangers 3-2 last tonight in game two of the fall classic. craig came off the bench to drive in the winning run. perry placed a friendly wager on the series. perry put up a barbecue while nixon posted r eed ravioli. still to come, more damaging testimony in the manslaughter trial of michael jackson's doctor, conrad murray, prosecutors prepare to rest their case. joe versus the reporter. why vice president joe biden got so very testy after a question about how he is promoting the white house jobs bill. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪ ♪ come at just the right speed, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ medicine that can't wait legal briefs there by eight, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ freight for you, box for me box that keeps you healthy, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ ♪ saving time, cutting stress, when you use ups ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪ the progresso chicken noodle you made is so good. it's got tender white meat chicken. the way i always made it for you. one more thing.... those pj's you like, i bought you five new pairs. love you. did you see the hockey game last night? [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. i'm not a line item on a budget. and i'm definitely not a pushover. but i am a voter. so washington... before you even think about cutting my medicare and social security benefits... here's a number you should remember. 50 million. we are 50 million seniors who earned our benefits... and you will be hearing from us... today and on election day. ♪ good morning. welcome back to "american morning." the prosecution expected to rest its case today in the manslaughter trial of michael jackson's doctor, conrad murray. they tried to finish with a flourish calling an anesthesiologist to the stand who said dr. murray was clueless in his treatment of jackson and directly responsible for his death. cnn's ted rowlands has the details. >> reporter: the prosecution's last witness took the stand wednesday. he called propofol an outsta outstanding drug. a drug in the right hands would not have caused the death of michael jackson. >> i am asked every day, i tell patients what i'm going to do. i am asked the question are you going to give me the drug that killed michael jackson. i get this question daily. >> reporter: dr. stephen schaefer presented this have you had yo to the jury and to demonstrate how to administer propofol safely. >> you have to do the preparation of the room. checking the equipment. and going through to make sure that everything is basically properly in place. there is emergency airwaves that must be available. it is not surprising we are starring our setup, airway equipment because the single most important aspect of the of anesthesia ever is continued movement of air into the lungs. >> reporter: this photo shown earlier in the trial is michael jackson's bedroom where dr. conrad murray says he administered a small dose of propofol to jackson on the day he died. prosecutors say murray had none of the necessary equipment to monitor jackson while under sedation or to revive him in an emergency. schaefer used his video to make the point that quick action is needed when a patient goes into cardiac arrest. >> the heart stopped beating. the pausch is not breathing. this is a cardiac arrest. you have to respond instantly. and i cannot emphasize enough the first response to an emergency. those of you who have taken cpr courses may remember the instruct force cpr, you find a person unresponsive, what's the first thing do you? call for help. >> reporter: according to the prosecution's timeline, murray first noticed jackson wasn't breathing right before 12:00. 911 call didn't come in until 12:22. more than 20 minutes later. >> the facts in this case in my view, suggest virtually none of the safeguards for sedation were in place when propofol is administered to michael jackson. >> schaefer said jackson's life could have been saved if murray took the necessary precautions. but the bottom line according to schaefer, murray never should have given jackson propofol in the first place. >> if dr. murray had acted as doctor, the very first time michael jackson said i need propofol to sleep, a doctor would say you have a sleep disorder. and you need to be seen by doctors who specialize in sleep disorders. not by having me show up with propofol. >> defense is expected to start its case friday. they will try to convince the jury michael jackson accidentally killed himself by administering that fatal dose of propofol. the jury could possibly get this case for deliberation at some point next week. >> thank you, ted. let's head to atlanta with a check with reynolds wolf. cold in the midwest. winter has come good really has. certainly feels that way. certainly feels that way in chicago. let's go right to the incredible video we have for which you shows people on michigan avenue. the wind is gusty. especially between those buildings where it accelerates in excess of 40, 50 miles per hour. lake michigan, we had towering waves along the shores. it has been certainly rough times. we expect that those weather conditions are still going to be rough today and here is the result delays. some of them yes. possibly over an hour. gusty winds and rain. delays in new york, d.c., philadelphia, boston and in detroit. another issue we are going to be dealing with this morning, certain there cold air that's been just through parts of the -- central plains and western great lakes and even into the deep south where in alabama and into parts of georgia we expect the cold air to remain in place through tomorrow morning. maybe gradual warmup into the weekend. still for the most part relatively cool to say the least. something else we will see is a lot of the cold air in parts of the midwest. memphis, 43 degrees. 35 in denver. 53 in seattle. 55 in boston. temperature at this hour, new york, fairly balmy 66 degrees. we can expect the rain to begin to move towards parts of new york later today and also into the eastern half of the great lakes. dry and cool for the southeast. sunshine filling up over across parts of the central rockies. some of the high thin clouds. for the most part sunshine. if more rain for lakes and into parts of the cascades and northwest. quick snap shot of your forecast. back to you in new york. >> thanks, reynolds. >> still to come this morning. lot of people seeing red because they claim that their new iphone looks yellow. we will explain. >> youtube about to become even bigger music destination. find out which acts are heading to the site next. at bayer, we're re-inventing aspirin for pain relief. with new extra-strength bayer advanced aspirin. it has microparticles, enters the bloodstream faster and rushes relief to the site of pain. it's clinically proven to relieve pain twice as fast. new bayer advanced aspirin. ♪ [ multiple snds ng melodic tune ] ♪ [ malennounc ] at northrop grumman, makthworld a feplace. th's value performance. northr gruan. welcome back. minding your business this morning. fed's latest report on the economy says the economy is growing but at a slow pace. the outlook pushed u.s. stocks lower yesterday. growing doubts overnight about the effectiveness of the new eu bailout pushping european markets lower right now. in the u.s. futures up this morning so far. waiting to get a new read on the economy about an hour from now. that read is this. we will find out how many people filed for jobless claims for the first time last week. the economists expect that number to be slightly lower than the week before. federal reserve says it will take steps to try to be more transparent. the move coming after a government report found there was a conflict of interest with the fed's board of directors. according to the audit several financial firms and corporations could have benefited financially because their executives served on the bank's boards. some iphone 4s users are claiming the screen their new smartphone has a yellowish tint. apple not commenting. you may remember the iphone 4 and ipad 2 had problem was the screens appearing yellow. the problem on those devices, an adhesive that had not completely dried yet. youtube had months of negotiations. they struck a deal with an agenag agy -- agency. musicians will receive royalties each time a youtube user publishes a video with parts of their song. you name it. i've tried it. but nothing's helped me beat my back pain. then i tried this. it's salonpas. this is the relief i've been looking for. salonpas has 2 powerful pain fighting ingredients that work for up to 12 hours. and my pharmacist told me it's the only otc pain patch approved for sale using the same rigorous clinical testing that's required for prescription pain medications. proven. powerful. safe. salonpas. just having some tender chicken and some tasty noodles. let's see...south western vegetables...60 calories. ya' know those jeans look nice. they do? yup. so you were checking me out? yup. [ male announcer ] progresso. 40 soups 100 calories or less. breaking news just in to cnn that moammar gadhafi has been captured in libya. we will go for their report iin >> we caught a big fish. this is a big day. by the end of the day, people should be cautious about the celebration we have in tripoli. we lost 21 lives. i'm asking people to restrain from shooting in the air and using the civilized way to celebrate the victory. >> reporter: if this is true, if moammar gadhafi himself has been captured what's -- put it in context. what does this mean for you personally and libyan people? it is a massive day. >> it is a great moment. i have been waiting for this moment for decades. i'm thanking god that i'm alive to see this. but also we would like to assure the whole world in a libyan people are not going to take justice in the streets. they have to do it through the courts and through the -- law and order. we are going to establish a state of law and order and other people, through the courts and get a fair trial. >> reporter: will we go to the international criminal court? will he be tried in there in libya? >> this is something we decide by empty seat. we would like as libyan to have our justice to be enforced inside libya and we are able to do it. we have the justice system, we can trust our judges. they can do it in very fairway. >> reporter: what makes for the country -- there were rumors he was going to try to staff an insurgency. that rumor has been dispelled now. >> yeah. it would be a big -- supporters. some sleeping cells around the country, and -- even when he was -- and free, we would -- our revolution forces able to go through with that, country able to take the law and order and very efficient way, we have some government. generally we are able to have a safe country. >> reporter: when do you think you will have 1 opinion opinion confirmation that moammar gadhafi has been captured? >> i'm sure in a few hours. i'm sure that -- to come out to the media. >> reporter: but you are confident that this is true? >> i'm not going to comment on something that i don't have 100% confirmation because we are being -- have some disappointment before but such news. but i'm sure that embassy people are right now doing everything concerning this. >> reporter: thank you very much indeed for joining us on what shaping up to be an historic day in libya. not only it looks like the liberation of the country after the fall of sirte. >> dan rivers reporting on the bottom right hand side of your screen. you are looking at the live scene right now in the capital tripoli. many people behind the wheels of their cars driving around and hooting wildly in celebration of the news that's being reported but has not been 100% confirmed that moammar gadhafi, former libyan leader, has been captured. there are reports saying he has been shot and wounded in the leg. there is a lot of shooting going around in tripoli now. you can see the picture of the bottom right-hand side of your screen. celebratory gunfire. dan rivers is monitoring the situation there. speaking to the information minister. was it clear at all where exactly moammar gadhafi is believed to be captured and wounded? >> reporter: i think the suggestion is he was captured in sirte trying to escape. we have no specific location of where in sirte. there was -- talk a number of commanders trying to escape. we don't know. i think it is important to stress that there have been rumors about members of the gadhafi family being caught before and proven to be untrue. you can hear the reaction here. it is very, very loud. lots of excitement as you can hear and see behind me. lots of shooting in the air. and ships blasting their horns and car horns as well with everyone hoping he is rumors are true. fellow gadhafi who came to power in 1969 as a young captain in the army, he staged a coup against the king in 1969. he was only 27 years old. he has ruled ever since. a lot of people in the country have known nothing of him, moammar gadhafi running this place. >> when will we know for 100% certainty that it is moammar gadhafi? there's so many reports that are conflicting right now. it is not 100% as the information minister says. all they know right now for sure, according to the radio reports coming out of misrata and stations there, they have a big fish. >> reporter: yeah, that's right. we heard not -- saying it will be hours before they have this completely confirmed. i would think, you know, they will want to show the world the photos of the captured colonel gadhafi. that will be the definitive proof they have him. seeing something like that, i think it is going to be -- nothing more than a strong rumor. it sounds like we may get some sort of statement from the ntc in the next few hours. hopefully that will shed more light on exactly what has happened and the circumstances surrounding moammar gadhafi's capture if it is indeed true. perhaps some video or photographic proof as well. >> dan rivers, stand by. try to get more information coming in from libya today a dramatic day. it could turn out to be even more transformative for this country and the future of the country. first, will were reports and then confirmation from the ntc that sirte, final stronghold, the resistance of moammar gadhafi, sirte, had fallen. now this. we are hearing reports from the reuters news agency as well as other sources quoting the national council officials that moammar gadhafi has been captured and there are reports, too, that he has been wounded. possibly in the legislation. these are scenes like pick -- live pictures in tripoli. a real cacophony here. people celebrating, perhaps prematurely because we do not know right now for 100% certainty that moammar gadhafi has been captured. people are honking their horns. celebratory gunfire is being heard as well. this is street scene. this is major deal if it is true. there have been mistakes made before. we need to be a little bit careful here. if it is moammar gadhafi, though, is it over? >> you are absolutely right to be cautious and careful because the -- they announced before that they captured the son of gadhafi. but proved to be actually not true. if it is true, this is the biggest fish since the capture of saddam hussein. eight months after the fall of baghdad. the people in tripoli, the people in benghazi, they are entitled to celebrate because sirte, the capture of sirte, liberation of sirte, actually is a huge achievement. this is the last castle of gadhafi, last simple of his rules which fall to the hands. people, fact, set to celebrate. if it is true, gadhafi captured, this means the end of 42 years of suppression of the libyan people and a new era will start. if gadhafi managed to escape and they are not being captured or killed, he could create -- for the new leader in libya. he managed to keep billions of dollars in cash and gold. there were a lot of rumors he is in the south of libya hiding somewhere. he's trying to launch a guerrilla war to make it extremely difficult for the new regime to establish itself. if it is true, yes, this is, you know, a turning point in this libyan conflict. it could be for the whole middle east. >> we continue to look at live pictures. these are pictures from sirte as people appear to be gathering to celebrate on the news that cnn cannot confirm for 00% certainty that moammar gadhafi has been captured. there are reports, too, that he has been wounded. perhaps in the leg. we spoke a short while ago to the information minister that said it was a big day and big victory for the libyan people but they are not completely certain that it is, in fact, moammar gadhafi that has been captured. he said to the radio is reporting that but the ntc, many officials, are waiting for a statement from benghazi to be absolutely certain that they have the biggest fish that they have been searching for. dan rivers is in tripoli right now. how long is it going to take the statement to come out ask are you getting more information about what may have happened? >> reporter: state tv is now reporting on one ticker, the bottom of their screen, gadhafi evacuated to misrata. but was dead on arrival or dead in the process of being evacuated. now, again, we have no confirmation or cell phone or any of this. if that's true, that will clearly be a bitter disappointment to those that wanted to see him put on trial and have him answer the huge numbers of questions and bring him, you know, to face-to-face with horrific reacts and repression he was responsible for and his 42 years ruling this country. again, i'm afraid we just don't have any independent confirmation. that's just what one state tv channel is reporting. same channel i believe that would -- supporting he had been captured. but certainly from what the minister of information just told us, it may be several hours before we get clarification on automatic of this. there were other reports as you were mentioning he had been shot in the leg. again, we have no confirmation on that. what seems clear is that this is going to be a momentous day in libya whether he has been captured or not. the fall of sirte is massively significant. it was the last pro-gadhafi support. yesterday fallen earlier in week. they secured it after a fierce fire fight. we have been in sirte for the week before that. and seen for ourselves just how fierce and brutal some of the resistance was that they used sniper fire and picking off soldiers as they tried to move in. now we are being told this morning at about 8:00 a.m., the operation started for the last push into district two, final place where pro-gadhafi forces were hiding out. >> if you are just joining us, we are hearing a lot of dramatic but conflicting reports a big fish, those are the words of the information minister, in libya has been captured. we are getting reports that it is moammar gadhafi. some are saying they have been wounded. there is another report just moments ago on state tv that says that gadhafi was evacuated from misrata and was pronounced dead on arrival. it is unclear exactly what the situation is right now. we need the to be careful here because the ntc made announcements before in the past and they have been mistaken. we are just going to wait important the statement coming out of benghazi. we are told it will come out in a few hours. once they know for sure. what we do know, what we can tell you, what the information minister told our dan rivers just a short while ago. listen carefully to what he has to say. >> a big day for libyan people. sirte. i think a great victory for the libyan people. we noe from our sources that we have a -- i don't know how -- we have a big fish. >> reporter: you don't know who has been captured. >> yes. there -- radio confirmed it is gadhafi himself. wear waiting for a statement from benghazi. they will confirm or deny that we caught a big fish in sirte. >> the information minister of libya speaking a short while ago to dan rivers as we con to look at the pictures on what's proving to be a historic, dramatic day for libya. let's look at the scene here where people are just driving up and down the streets of sirte. firing their guns in the celebration upon the news that they believe glmoammar gadhafi s been captured or wounded. it is unclear for sure, for 100%, exactly what is the situation. we are waiting for word from an official statement from benghazi to tell us what exactly is going on and the circumstances in which he may have been captured, killed or wounded. the information minister is saying a big fish, that's all he's saying for certainty. according to reports on misrata radio has been captured. as we watch the celebrations here on the streets, let's bring in juan. you know a lot about this region and libya here. what does this mean for libyans who have -- for 42 years have been living under the rule of moammar gadhafi? >> it could be the biggest day, colonel gadhafi to capture him or kill him. it is a rouge relief for, you know, about 6 million libyans who are waiting for an end to his regime. it is very significant here. we no that the brigades -- which actually are fighting in sirte that -- which captured hup, it is the misrata brigades. those people definitely, they have the acknowledge of what's happening on the ground. it could be true. i'm not say it is 100% true but those people, they do know actually what's happening and in sirte itself because there are the -- the big -- main who managed to capture waleed and now sirte. it could be authentic. if it is 100% true i think the libyans for the first time will have a sigh of relief and they will relax and they will believe their ambition to have a democratic state will start to rebuild their country. nation building process could start immediately and gadhafi wouldn't be able any more to derail about the ambition of the libyan people for a civil state, for democrat yuck country. law and order to be imposed. people to -- to enjoy the huge -- what they have, 60 billion as added which could turn to the country to a huge and prosperous paradise. >> if that's glad hadhafi and h alive what will happen to him? >> whether he is surrendered to the criminal courts or whether he is going to be charged and tried in libya, we know there's no proper judicial system in libya. completely -- there is no institutions there. there's no law and order. there's no proper judges or actually -- we have to wait for a long time until we see this system established. and after that, if it is going to be free and transparent as what happened to saddam hussein, it took more than six months before we seen -- we seen saddam hussein brought to justice. whether it will take that long when it comes to a monarch or not we have to wait and see. that information is that he -- would be free and it will be transparent. let us take his words and hoping that we can see that trial of gadhafi the way we have seen the similar one where -- to saddam hussein and most of his men in iraq. it is a historic moment and we have to wait for it and it will be very exciting and definitely the libyan people entitled to celebrate at least capture of sirte and it could be if gadhafi is captured or killed, another bonus for them. >> there could be other parallels. the reuters news agency is reporting and quoting libyan revolutionary fighters saying glad glad was hiding in a hole in sirte. we do not know for 100% certainty the circumstances of a possible capture. we don't know if he is wounded. we don't know if he is dead. those are all the various conflicting and unconfirmed reports that are out there. let's go to our senior pentagon reporter barbara starr for reaction from the u.s. barbara, what are you hearing? >> here in washington, there's no official confirmation that this is gadhafi who has been captured. what are we going to be looking for over the coming hours? i think once the libyans make that official confirmation, if they do, in fact, you will then hear the nato secretary general out of brussels making a statement because nato has been leading the military operations against the gadhafi regime. and president obama. for the president, this is now a third national security plus. a win, if you will, after osama bin laden, you know, a third in a row where his strategy of letting nato talk the lead on this has apparently by all accounts perhaps worked at the end of the day. this will be something that will have political play in the united states. a plus for the white house. hard to see how the republican presidential candidates may decide to play it and what they will criticize now at this point. what will come next is your -- guests saying what happens to gadhafi if he is captured, will the libyan authorities put him on trial? no justice system yet organized inside libya. the international court has its own indictment, if you will, against gadhafi for war crimes. this want to get their hands on him and the -- international procedure would be to have him trance forred to the international criminal court and face war crime charges there. there is a lot of political pressure obviously in libya among the libyan people and will want to see some sort of action, some sort of justice perhaps against gadhafi. so this will -- this will be a very sensitive situation. the nato, united states, the west will pressure the new emerging libyan government not to engage in the so-called street justice or vengeance but the new emerging libyan government must also respond to the pressures of its own people in the street and you can see their feelings -- there are feelings right now as we watch these pictures out of libya, libyan people believe it is true. they are very pleased about it. what happens next, what legal proceedings happen next, will be a very sensitive question. >> you have been in close touch with your nato sources as well about the battle for sirte. this has been a nato backed operation over the past few weeks. liberation of this country. what have they told you about how tough the battle for sirte has been? >> well, you know, it is very inning you ask that. even at this hour, pentagon officials, u.s. military officials are looking at the situation and while there have been these statements that, you know, sirte has been entered, the -- rebel forces, so-called rebel forces, emerging government in libya, are taking control of sirte, and that perhaps seems inevitable. people p.m. here ring a little more cautious about it. they know there are still pockets of resistance in sirte. they know loyalist forces are still fighting at various points across the country. things like this become a question of when can you militarily say sirte has fallen? when can you militarily make the statement that it is now in control of the authorities of the transitional council. again, these are very sensitive questions of -- the inevitability of all of it. statements coming out of libya are looked at very carefully. the u.s. is continuing to look for the independent confirmation it can make on all of these statements on all of the events. nato is very much in the same position. what's facing nato now after being involved, after load thing military operation against liby march is nato, along with the united states as a member of nato, the alliance has to make the decision, when do they say, okay, we're done. we're now going to take the vote and exit from the libya operation? you know, what will happen then? does that embolden any leftover insurgent, any leftover loyalist element? again, a very sensitive question because it is not only nato that is involved. we know that several countries, several of the european and middle eastern members of the alliance that's been working inside libya, aside from nato. these countries have been sending in their own forces. qatar, jordan in the middle east. some european members have been sending in their own special forces and their own intelligence operatives and their own commando forces working on the ground with the rebels trying to develop this intelligence. trying to protect the weapon sites in libya. so, a lot of activity militarily, intelligence wise, commando forces wise inside of libya. does all of that now go away? does the capture, the potential capture of gadhafi mean, okay, it's all over? certainly not. a lot of international concern. not just about libya's leftover stockpiles of chemical agents for chemical weapons. mustard gas, that sort of thing. the fundamental concern right now are these potential thousands of surface to air missiles that have gone missing or not accounted for or not under control. a couple weeks ago our own ben wedemen had these amazing pictures, video from weapon site in libya where you saw empty crates, you saw weapons strewn about. under no one's control. there is huge concern across this north africa region that some of these thousands of weapons may have crossed borders, maybe in the hands of terrorists or other insurgents. getting all of that back under control is now a major security concern. so, as important as this day may be about gadhafi's capture and the reaction of the libyan people and the plus for the president of the president of the united states is the in the national security column of events. still, huge security concerns on the ground. this remains a very sensitive area and a very sensitive issue to deal with. zain? >> cnn's barbara starr reporting to us from the pentagon. today could be the biggest day in libyan history. it could be quite extraordinary. we will only really know in the coming hours. there were so many conflicting reports right now. we just need to be a little bit careful. not clear if moammar gadhafi has been captured, wounded or killed. many different reports. the ntc, the information minister that we speak to a short while ago said he's certain that a big fish has been captured, but he's not 100% certain that it is, in fact, moammar gadhafi. there have been mistakes and disappointments before. so, they're going to take their time on this one and be extra careful and sure that it is, in fact, moammar gadhafi. but the people on the streets right now, as you're looking. these are live from sirte and they're already celebrating. celebratory gunfire being fired in the air, people are honking their horns and raising their arms in victory upon the news that they think it is, in fact, moammar gadhafi. let's tell you a little bit more about him as we wait to find out what's really going on and the circumstances in which this may have happened. he was the longest serving leader in africa. actually, the ruler of libya since back in 1969. he first came to power that year when he overthrew the regime in a bloodless coup and then in the 1970s he published his whole philosophy in this three volume book that he called the green book. in 1977 he created a jamahiriya. he called this direct democracy, but what it actually has done, no functioning institutions like the judiciary in this country because he made sure they didn't exist. in 1986, several u.s. soldiers were killed in an attack on a disco in berlin. american officials blamed libya and retaliated by bombing the cities of benghazi and tripoli. in 1988, 270 people were killed in the pan am bombing over lockerbie. libya took responsibility for lockerbie and announced weapons of mass destruction. in 2008 libya and the u.s. signed a compensation deal for bombings on both sides. phil black joins us now. he joins us because he spent a lot of time in sirte and libya as the fighting has been going on there. he joins us now from our london newsroom. phil, give us an idea how tough, how ferocious this battle was and also talk a little bit about district 2 because we understand that was the big gadhafi holdout. >> well, zain, the battle for sirte has been going on for some weeks now and it has been long and slow and bloody and that was against all expectation and all prediction made by the anti-gadhafi forces and that is why, wisely, you're hearing a great deal of caution from around the world in reacting to first of all the alleged fall of sirte and also the alleged capture of gadhafi himself. ever since tripoli fell two months ago, there have been a great many claims that have, in the end, been disproven about the catcher of high-profile figures within the regimes. his sons and also imminent military victories. they haven't lived up to the reality of the battleground themself. when they did finally move on sirte, they came up against much greater resistance than they had expected. they lost far more fighters than they had thought. they were prepared and committed and well armed. and they were well established within this very tight urban environment. from this environment, they were able to defend very effectively against the anti-gadhafi forces who were simply not trained, not equipped, not ready to fight in that sort of situation. the initial prediction before they actually rolled into that city for the first time is that the fighting would all be over within a couple of hours. that did not happen. it was nothing like that at all. they say they were surprised because the residents within the city didn't come on their side and rise up against the pro-gadhafi fighters that were still there. and as well as that, those progadhafi fighters were much better equipped and much better prepared than they had expected, also. another reason why i think they fought so hard for sirte and there was the belief that there were some big fish within the city. the belief that it was gadhafi himself, that disappeared weeks ago. the reason why is because gadhafi had no longer reason to remain in sirte. the back door to sirte heading south into the country had been open long before the anti-gadhafi forces surrounded the city and engaged in it in any meaningful way. the expectation on the ground among all the fighters, if gadhafi had been there, he had left weeks ago. i think many people surprised within the among pro-gadhafi for anti-gadhafi forces. if it turns out it be true that, yes, in fact, he was found within that city, given that he had the opportunity to get out for such a long time. zain? >> cnn's phil black reporting and giving us a sense of what sirte was like in the ferocious battle that went on there. today is a big day in libya. the city of sir terte has falle. the final push was really on this area known as district 2, where the major pockets of resistance, the really tough ones, were still holding out. the reports that say that is now mostly in control now of the ntc fighters. it's hugely significant because sirte was moammar gadhafi's hometown and also the last fight that continued to support moammar gadhafi that has apparently disappeared and been destroyed. we continue to get conflicting reports here on exactly what is going on. many reports are saying moammar gadhafi has possibly been captured. the reports that say he has been wounded in the legs. another report from the state tv in libya saying gadhafi has been evacuated and was pronounced dead on arrival. we do not know for 100% certainty. one senior official in libya says all they know is that they have a big fish. in the coming hours a statement from benghazi and we will know then what exactly has happened. who exactly is and what this means for libya. it could be the biggest day in libya's history and a major turning point for the country and the entire region. an author who knowns it well, joins me. what does it mean for libya? >> it means the biggest day in history for libya. zain, you are absolutely right. also the biggest day in history for the mideast itself. many things could be determined after the death or capture of gadhafi. also in the middle east. we know there is also revolution and we know there is another revolution in syria and that they are fighting for survival. so, it could be now, after that, you know, they turn over the page of libyan conflict or that page of gadhafi regime after 42 years of suppression, maybe that tension will be concentrated on syria and german. libyans suffered a lot. libyans are one of the wealthiest countries and $60 billion a year and despite that, gadhafi actually turned the country to one of the poorest in the middle east. people are suffering. no institution and no surfaces and no proper hospitals, no proper universities and no property schools and his major aim was actually to spend this money in order to boost his popularity in africa and some parts of the middle east, even supporting, you know, so-called terrorist organization and i think it is a historic day, yes. >> thank you so much. we need to keep in mind right now is that we don't know. moammar gadhafi may be captured, he may be killed, he may be wounded. you're watching cnn breaking news coverage out of libya on what could be the most historic extraordinary day. the country has ever seen. christy lou stout has been following this and the way the situation stands right now, various conflicting reports that moammar gadhafi, the former libyan leader who had ruled the country for 42 years has been captured. there are reports that he has also been wounded in the leg. there is state tv also reporting that he may be dead. christy? >> and all this coming on the back of reports that sirte has finally fallen to ntc forces. zain, thank you for that. breaking news this hour in libya. the ntc is reporting that former libyan leader moammar gadhafi has been captured. if confirmed, this would be the end of his 42 years of his rule and a new era for libya. of course, we have correspondents across the globe on the story. we have dan rivers live in tripoli, barbara starr live at the pentagon. mohammed jajoom live in libya. first, dan rivers live in tripoli, where even though this story, the capture of moammar gadhafi is yet to be confirmed, there are celebrations under way. dan? there are celebrations on the streets of tripoli behind me. the ships out in the harbor have been sounding their horns. you can hear the celebration from the local mosque as gunfire out across the city in celebration. as well, everyone here believing these rumors that gadhafi has been captured or killed. i must stress, though, that we have no independent confirmation of this. we did speak to the minister of information and here's what he told me. >> i think it's a great victory for libyan people and a great victory for revolution and we know now from our sources in z misrata that we have a big fish. we don't know how -- >> you don't know who has been captured. just a senior figure. confirmed that moammar gadhafi himself. we're waiting for a statement from benghazi. people can confirm or deny that we caught a big fish in sirte. they are being cautious because they know in the past they announced the capture of colonel gadhafi's sons who then turned up at the hotel, rather embarrassi embarrassingly, and proved that rheumer to not be true. they're going to be very cautious on this one. they know that this is the big piece of news that the entire country has been waiting for and they want to make sure that they get the announcement right this time. we're being told some sort of press conference when they have 100% confirmation. may probably i would imagine some video or colonel gadhafi in custody if that is, indeed, the case. if you can hear behind me they're celebrating and breathing a huge sign of relief. disappear, melt into the desert and leave an insurgency for years to come that could destabilize this country and block any chance of it getting back on its feet and becoming a democracy, which are what so many people here are desperate to happen. >> cnn senior international correspondent dan rivers getting us the latest information from tripoli. mohammad jamjoom joins us now. what do you think this means for libya? >> well, very good question, zain. still a lot of questions here today. a lot of ifs. right now we're monitoring what the regional reaction is. flooding in on social media. as far as the arabic networks, a lot of conflicting information. some networks reporting that gadhafi has been killed and some reporting he has been captured and some reporting he was wounded and it's really all over the place and a lot of answers to be answered. we are seeing people on sites like twitter tweeting out responses, hey, if they caught gadhafi this year, that would be gre great. you're seeing a lot of people in countries where the arab spring has taken route tweeting out messages for the libyans. if this, indeed, happened, that is a very good day for libya and very good day for the arab spring in general. the people who have been involved and the movement in this region have really expressed solidarity for the different movements in the different countries. you've seen in countries like yemen and countries like egypt and in countries like libya. times when those countries will express support for the other count country's revolutions. that's what you're continuing to see right now. although people are expressing caution and trying to find out exactly what did happen if gadhafi has, indeed, been captured and those questions remain at this time. zain? >> mohammed, it's kristie in hong kong. world leaders are watching, including the yemeni president. what do you think he is making of this development, even though it has yet to be confirmed, ntc fighters, in, it, c leaders claiming that moammar gadhafi has been captured. >> kristie, whenever a leader in this movement has fallen or been deposed or been captured, during this movement, this has had ripple effects throughout the region and the leaders that are facing uprisings in their countries, they get scared when they hear this news. somebody like president of yemen, this is the last bit of news that he would want to hear because this will surely, if gadhafi was, indeed, captured, this will surely embolden the uprising going on in bolden and will surely give a morale boost to all the revolutionaries out on the streets now. it will also increase their calls that he be tried by the international criminal court for alleged war crimes. they allege that he has brutally cracked down on them and their uprising in the past several months. even though the yemeni government denies this, they continue to deny it. the people in the street continue to charge that the government had been going after them. it will give a big bost to the revolutionary movement in yemen and more of a boost to come out in the streets and, again, really the last thing that someone that is so embattled would want to hear at this time. kristie? >> thank you for that. i want to bring in cnn security contributor fran town zen now and she joins us on the phone from new york. just give us your reaction from the ntc that moammar gadhafi has been captured in sirte. >> i think like most of us, we're pretty cautious because of misreporting from the ntc early on in the struggle. but if it is true f we c, if we confirm that gadhafi is captured or kill, the transition council in libya and begin to apply the rule of law. this is what they fought for. they fought for democratic libya that is not ruled by a dictator and have its own people oppressed. where resources are more adequately and evenly distributed where they could be investments in infrastructure. this is the pivotal turning point for them that they have been waiting for. i will say, while i do agree with mohammed. let's remember, libya was the one place where the arab league came together and supported nato's activity there. and sort of encouraged it. there was no love lost throughout the arab region for moammar gadhafi. personal disputes with a number of leaders, not least of which with the leader of saudi arabia. the remaining leaders in the region, they will not be sad to see him go and in many respects this allows the region to focus on its continuing problems in yemen and syria. >> so, even if, fran, just want to get your thinking on the overall security situation. in the event of a libya that wads truly without moammar gadhafi, if confirmed that sirte has fallen and moammar gadhafi captured, there are still these pockets of pro-gadhafi loyalists out in force. what are your thoughts about rock style insurgency taking route inside libya, even in a libya after gadhafi. >> i think you're quite right to raise this. this is probably the most pressing and serious security concern that the transitional council will face. initially i think what we should expect is those progadhafi forces will melt away for a period of time to see what happens. to see how the transcissional council and what support they have among the libyan population. you'll go through an initial period of euphoria. as we're seeing, people are celebrating and it's not confirmed. you'll go through a period of relative quiet and celebration and everyone takes in the fact that gadhafi is gone. there will be continuing concern about where are his sons? have they fled? will they fight. those progadhafi forces that will go away. the transitional council have to deal with that and bring those people into society and into the government and deal with them so there's not an impulse on their part to try and oppose the transitional council. >> fl >> fran, thank you for that. j.b. rooben. live from new york. i was wondering if you share fran townsend's reaction. moammar gadhafi has been captured in sirte. >> one always has to be cautious for the reasons that everyone has been saying for the last half hour. we haven't seen the final evidence whether it's the body of moammar gadhafi, if he's dead, as some tv television reports from the region are suggesting, or whether he has been captured like others are saying. but this has the feel now like the real thing in terms of what's happening on the streets, what the reporters are hearing. the multiplicity of tv and radio and news reporting. and i think we in the west, certainly, should try to imagine how big an issue, a development this is for the people of libya who lived under this face, this individual, this person's shadow for their whole lives. knowing that he had the ability by the whims of he and his family to change everybody's future, to kill people, to torture people, to free people. that kind of all powerful dictator doesn't exist in too many places in the world. gadhafi was one of them and i think that's why when this news is confirmed, if it is confirmed in some way, that there is this outpouring that all of your guests are suggesting. it's already starting and then the real first test of the new government will come and how they handle this development. if he's alive, do they try him in libya. do they have a local justice system? do they respond to the internaesinte international criminal court which has wanted to see him tried there. that will be the world's first judgment of whether the new libya is to be based on the rule of law and democratic values. >> mormar gadhafi, if he is still alive, he is wanted by the international court for crimes against humanity. what is the united states' view on this? does the united states want to see him turned over to the icc next? >> yes. i would assume the u.s. government would encourage the turning over of gadhafi to the international criminal court, not because of any principle of the icc, but because the international criminal court will have procedures, lawyers, traditions in place that would ensure that not only he gets a fair trial, but it seemed to be a fair trial. because that perception is important. and, obviously, without that tradition inside libya that hasn't existed for decades, it will be extremely difficult to put together a convincing trial in libya, a trial that is fair and that is seen to be fair, which is also crucially important. so, my guess is the u.s. would certainly prefer an icc trial, but i can't imagine any government disputing the right of the transition council, the new government of libya to make this decision themselves, especially as they captured him and as he has visited such pain and suffering on to the people of libya. it would be hard to take away their right to make that decision. we might try, the u.s. might try to persuade the local government, this new transition council to turn him over even though they said they don't want to make the arguments i just made about a fair trial and seem to be fair and that will be the next round of diplomatic discussion and how the transition government handles this if he's alive will be the first real tough test that the new government will face in the eyes of the world. >> former u.s. assistant to secretary of state, thank you very much, indeed, for that. let's bring up my colleague, zain verjee, live in london. zain, i was noticing just moments ago a banner underneath our guest just night, jamie rubin, reports that moammar gadhafi has been killed. claiming that he has been captured in sirte. claiming he has been killed. of course, we're still working to confirm the story. on top of that, working to confirm the report that sirte after days and days of fighting has fallen to rebels. celebrations under way upon the news that gadhafi has been captured or killed. zain. >> that is exactly right. if you were just joining us here on cnn. let me just bring you up to date on what is going on. just moments ago a national transitional tv station is reporting that moammar gadhafi is dead. it has not cited a source. and cnn cannot independently confirm that information. at the same time, the reuters news agency is reporting quoting an ntc official also saying that moammar gadhafi is dead. there's also information that he was trying to flee, that he has been captured. he has also been wounded in the legs. we are trying to confirm that information, but this is the scene on the streets of sirte right now. celebrations, gunshots, dancing, honking of car horns on the street. dan rivers joins us now to bring us up to date with what he is now hearing. dan? >> yeah, just lots of conflicting rumors, i'm afraid, zain. nothing concrete. i think that will be the case for a few hours until the ntc holds some kind of press conference and gives us the definitive story of what happened today. sirte, it seems, has fallen and not much is clear. the face of colonel gadhafi are clear. some reports that he has been captured and some he has been injured during that capture and some he has been killed. we certainly don't know and if anything else would be speculation, i'm afraid. what isn't speculation is what's going on down here. this may look a little messy. let's just take the camera, if we can, over the side here and you can have a look. all sorts of celebration on the streets. there are people doing dancing down there. it's the hotel staff where we are, the chefs are out dancing in their white hats, waving the flag. there are people shooting in the air. huge traffic jams building up down there as people digest the news that colonel gadhafi's regime is finally over. after 42 years he came to power, of course, in 1969. staging a coup against the king. as a young captain, only 27 years old promoting himself to colonel so he couldn't outrank his great hero, the president of egypt. and then ruled this country with increasing brutality for 42 years until the arab springs came through here in the most dramatic and incredible fashion. zain? >> dan rivers, our senior international correspondent there reporting. what an amazing scene out there. the chefs dancing and celebrating upon hearing the possible news that moammar gadhafi, the former libyan leader is dead. again, we just need to be a little bit careful here, but if it is true that he is either captured or killed, this would be the biggest day in libya's history. that man known by many of his enemies as the mad dog of the middle east. he wants his friends to call him king of kings. it may all be over for him now. cnn's barbara starr joins us now from the pentagon. barbara, what is the u.s. saying on the suggestion that the biggest fish of them all may be caught or killed? >> well, you know, zain, officially from washington at this point, no confirmation of either captured or killed. they are also waiting. i think when word finally comes out of libya, you will then see nato make a statement about this because they, of course, led the military operation, as well as president obama. if gadhafi is, in fact, dead, and may have perhaps been killed in some sort of military operation, depending on the condition of the body, if that's what we're facing here, we may also be looking at some sort of dna test being conducted to show those results to the world because in these cases, we typically hear, you know, people the urban legend would remain that he's alive somewhere. so, they may want to also do some sort of dna testing, if, in fact, he is dead. but as for confirmation, no confirmation yet. but i did speak a little while ago to a senior nato official about this question of when nato will end the military operation over libya because now the emerging government is taking increasing control of the country and, as we see, taking control of that last stronghold of sirte, though, it's not under full control yet. this senior nato official tells me that in the next couple of days, the supreme ally commander and the top military official in nato is expected now to make a recommendation to nato in the next couple of days that the libya mission for nato come to an end. then what will happen is a special session of the north atlantic council of nato. the military arm of nato, if you will, will be called into special session to take a vote. a nato voet on ending the mission in libya and if gadhafi now is captured or killed, that will probably bolster the case, one could assume, that the nato military mission over libya is over. but, nonetheless, this country remains a very significant security concern. thousands perhaps of surface to air missiles and not under firm control of the government. may have crossed borders, according to intelligence officials. so, a lot of uncertainty still about how firm a security picture there is in libya and whether this emerging government as enthusiastic as it is, really can control the security picture in the country and can control the weapon stockpiles that are still inside libya. so, a lot of concern here, even as the world waits. right now for final word about what has happened to moammar gadhafi. >> all right, barbara starr joining us live from the pentagon there, thank you very much n de much, indeed. the former libyan ambassador to the united nations. he joins us now on the line. sir, have you heard anything? any confirmation about whether moammar gadhafi has been captured or killed? >> well, the information now i have is whether i think he is badly wounded, but i don't know when he survived it or he died after being captured. this is to be determined by the ntc. >> okay, so, what you're hearing from your sources in the ntc is that moammar gadhafi has been captured, perhaps wounded and not too sure about his condition. were you able to get any more information about how he was located? >> well, i think the information that he was trying to fled, but he had his convoy had been caught by the freedom fighters and he was under extensive fire from the and his convoy has been almost destroyed the whole convoy and that's how he had been captured. >> if moammar gadhafi has, indeed, been captured. what happens next? will he go on trial? will he be sent to the icc? >> well, any way, this is really a great day for the libyan people whether he is alive or he is dead. anyway, this is the end of the game for gadhafi and his supporters. and now i think the freedom fighters. if he is alive then we have to get them to the international criminal court about who will try him. whether it will be the international criminal court or the libyan judicial system. the international criminal court, but sirte they need gadhafi back once the trial and information in criminal court is finished because gadhafi has committed a lot of crimes before t the, so, he has to be tried about his crimes in libya. >> thank you very much n deed. that was the former libyan ambassador to the united nations joining us on the line there calling this a great day for libya and that libya's, in fac, more safe. he has confirmed with his sources the capture of moammar gadhafi. go ahead. >> there are many questions, kristie, at this hour. is moammar gadhafi captured? has he been killed? how did this happen? when did this happen? cnn cannot independently confirm what is going on. there is expected to be some kind of a statement from the ntc leadership in the coming hours that will make it clear. they want to be really careful because they have made mistakes before. but make no mistakes when you look at the street scenes here in tripoli and in sirte, people are already out chanting and celebrating because they know a big fish has been caught, they think, it's moammar gadhafi. joining us now from london is david hartwell, the editor at james islamic affairs. thanks for being with us. we are hearing reports that moammar gadhafi can be dead. if he is dead, could it ignite more violence? >> i think that's probably unlikely. i think even though the international community would perhaps not like to admit it, that would be the easiest way and quickest way to help bring an end to the insurgency or the resistance that gadhafi was putting up. although publicly they said they want to bring him to trial and that in a way removes one of the major obstacles to reconciliation and reconstruction in the future. >> just give our viewers a sense of what this means because many of them for 42 years have only known the autocrattic rule of moammar gadhafi. how would they be processing this possible information? >> it's very difficult because once you, if you live under a system where in theory, as your correspondents said earlier, in theory you have power, but in actual fact, you have none. you're constantly told all the decisions are made by you as a person in this kind of system. but, in fact, power lies with one man. then, how you use to assimulate yourself into a new culture and how you begin to build in a political culture where one has not previously existed before is a huge challenge. yet, it's quite liberating but also sort of very anxious times ahead for the libyan people. >> how had he run libya? how did he run the country? >> he run the country -- because you had systems of committees and hierarchies of people committees, what an actual fact was the country was run by gadhafi's family, his friend, his revolutionary colleagues from the 1969 revolution. power today was a very small band of people. yet, the impression given out to the international community was that this is perfect democracy. when, in fact, it wasn't. >> if this is true. if he has been either captured or killed, what are the key things that the ntc needs to be careful about now at this critical and historic turning point? >> the key challenge, i think, is moving forward with the reconciliation. moving forward with the transition program because there's going to be changes if gadhafi has been captured or killed, then the prime minister has already said that he will resign at that point so there are going to be changes that in the personnel of the ntc, but the ntc challenges to bring onboard those groups that haven't been previously passed at the ntc and also bring in the tribal elements that perhaps alongside gadhafi. all these groups need to be brought into a process that are able to move the country forward in a way that is inclusive and not divisive. >> david hartwell, thank you so much. let's go straight to the pentagon and to cnn's barbara starr who has some new information from her sources. barbara? >> you've been listening to cnn internati international. we're going back to domestic right now. joining us now is jamie rubin. watching coverage of reports that moammar gadhafi captured. you're watching jubilation in the streets because they say they have control of this port city that is the birthplace of the hometown of moammar gadhafi. we're being very careful, though, we're not able to confirm the reports that he's dead. >> long suspected that he is hiding out in his hometown. fierce fighting going on for a couple months there. we don't know yet whether he has been captured. we hurt reports that he was shot in both legs as he was running away. we heard reports he was found in a hole saying don't shoot, don't shoot and we also had reports that moammar gadhafi is dead. let's bring in jamie rubin to get some perspective on what this means for the united states? >> i think it feels like a good news day. it was inevitable once the rebels decided to fight him and nato decided to help the rebels, this day was going to happen. and i think if you look back over the last few months, it's actually not that long of time. the arab spring, it's fall now. in a few short months libya has gone from brutal dictatorship to the freedom that you're seeing on the streets, the end of gadhafi, assuming that he's either captured or killed. and now the real beginning of the new libya starts with the death of gadhafi. i think until now there has been a sort of transitional phase and one hasn't quite known what to think about libya. the world hasn't quite known what to see it as. i think with the death of gadhafi, if that's what it is, or his capture, if that's what it is. then the new libya really does begin the day after that. >> the death is really symbolic because libya has been in control of the national council for many month now. they just wanted the final thing of getting moammar gadhafi. does this justify, now, the united states involvement in libya? because remember there was a lot of controversy about that. republicans were saying, why are we getting involved? it is going to take longer than a couple of months. the president saying, no, no, no. we are going to be involved in a big way for just a short period of time and then we'll be involved in a smaller way and that seems that is exactly what happened. >> that is what happened. this was always, in my mind, one of the easiest use of force calls in modern times. think about it, you had a brutal dictator threatening to kill a mass murder of his civilian population. you had a u.n. resolution authorizing the use of force. you had the arab league, the actual arab league, all the arab leaders asking the united states to come into an arab country and help one side. you had a rebel army willing to fight. and you had a desert where arab power could make a huge difference without the need for ground forces. so, the use of air power, it seemed to me, was always one of the easiest calls possible. you had a legitimacy and efficacy. >> we will interrupt you for just a second because we had a picture just come in to cnn. this is very gory. we believe this is moammar gudoffy and we believe this shows his dead body. so, here is the picture. again, we have not confirmed this through cnn. this is an afp photo. this certainly looks like moammar gadhafi, jamie. >> it does. and it looks like what would hap fn you were hiding and you got caught and i think, frankly, if this is correct and it sure looks correct, this solves a lot of the legal problems that they were going to face because i think there would have been a struggle between the new libyan government, the transitional council ask the international community over justice because although the libyan new government wanted to see him tried in libya and said so as early as recently as this morning that that would be their goal. i think the rest of the world would have doubted not only a fair trial, but not seen as a fair trial. >> the next thing here, what kind of insurgency, if any, comes up out of this. or if this is over. this fighting is completely done in s irx rte and one son they're trying to track down. could there be some kind of -- >> retaliation, coming up around him. >> new insurgency or does it end here? >> i think we'll know within 24 hours or so assuming that we think everything that happened has happened including whether gadhafi is dead. whether the resistance, the last bit of resistance is organized around the gadhafi family or whether part of some deeper civil war. my guess is that it will die down. >> jamie, the libyan military, the head of the ntc, the head of the national transitional council, the military arm, has announced on alg jazeera that moammar gadhafi is dead. >> aparparently those pictures were confirmed. we'll throw it to the pentagon now. barbara starr, nato was involved in the fierce fighting going on this morning in sirte. what part do you think nato played in moammar gadhafi's death? >> we do have a clue here. just a little while ago nato officials confirmed that nato aircraft earlier today. i want to just read this to you. at approximately 8:30 local time, this is from nato. nato aircraft struck two pro-gadhafi forces, military vehicles which were part of a larger group maneuvering in the vicinity of sirte. conducting military operations and presented a clear threat to civilians. so, what we know now is that nato struck a convoy, air strikes against a convoy in the vicinity of sirte where the fighting was taking place and they believed it was possible gadhafi was hiding. now, a nato official tells me when they struck this convoy they did not know at that time precisely that gadhafi was in it. right now, they're trying to put all the pieces together and see from the libyan authorities if that's where they believe they got gadhafi. if he was, in fact, in this convoy that they struck. they're still awaiting the official statement from the national transitional council out of libya. this is being worked, you know, really, as they say, on a political level. capital to capital at the highest levels between nato, washington, nato members and the libyan authorities. once the libyans make the official statement, i think you will then see nato responding with an official statement and then perhaps president obama. the other new development that we have confirmed is nato says that within the next couple of days, the nato supreme commander, the top military commander in nato will make a recommendation about ending the military operations over libya. and then nato will convene a special session and take a vote on that. it may not happen immediately that the operations are ended, but they're going to consider it and they're going to take a vote about ending the operations. this does not mean that there are not significant security concerns in libya. one of the top concerns as we've all discussed, is perhaps these thousands of surface to air missiles and other weapons that are not under the control of the government. that remains a concern. there will certainly still be a very significant involvement in libya, but it looks like nato is getting ready to wrap it up. carol, christine? >> you know, i was still wondering about those weapons because some sort of security will have to be provided for libya and not just because of those weapons, because they're trying to set up a new government and one of gadhafi's sons is still out here. i want to bring back in jamie rubin because i was talking to you about this before. the national transition council said, hey, we can handle our own security. that brings up security concerns for the rest of the world, not just libya. >> i think that's right. i think there are some concerns around the region and around the world that libya could become very chaotic and since there's such great hope that this really can turn from a terrible dictatorship to a model of a new arab world with the help of the west, but most of the work done by the people themselves. there's great hope here. if there are these weapons floating around. if one of the sons still has 200, 300, 400 mercenaries at thiz beck and call and if there are still tribes in the hometown region of colonel gadhafi that are determined to fight for bigger reasons than adjust gadhafi because they feel they will suffer in a new libya. you still have the potential for a low-grade civil conflict and i don't think that you have a lot of confidence in the rest of the world. that this new libyan military, whatever it becomes will be stable enough, successful enough and follow the rule of law and have even effectiveness across the country. >> we want to clarify something about the picture we showed. >> we're not clear, we're not exactly sure what this shows. moammar gadhafi, appeared to be his bloodied body. >> the afp photo, it's very graphic, i want to warn you before we show it. the photo taken by afp. it was taken with a cell phone camera and shows a badly wounded moammar gadhafi. you can clearly see a little chaotic and a lot of people around there clearly grabbing him, but it's showing the arrest of this man in sirte, it says, the libyan transitional commander said he was captured when that hometown was falling and he was very badly wounded and this picture shows just how wounded he was at the time of his arrest. >> he was shot in the legs as he was running away, but we don't know that either. let's head to washington and check in with athena jones. any word out of the white house? >> no comment yet. whether gadhafi has been killed or captured. this is the sort of thing that they're going to be very, very careful about. lots of activity behind the scenes as officials to get the information they can get. of course, as soon as they confirm it, we would expect to see at least some sort of paper statement, if not followed by an on-camera statement. this would be big news, of course. >> absolutely. we were talking about this before, this is how the white house told the american people it would go. you would assume this would be a big victory for the obama administration. >> absolutely. you know, back in august in martha's vineyard he made a comment about what had happened then. there were lots of efforts then by the rebels and lots of gains then. but he said at the time, it's still not over. back then in august it was clear that the gadhafi regime was nearing its end. he knew that there was still several, still very fluid situation and as we're seeing today, it's still fluid. we'll expect to keep on the white house today and to expect to hear from them when they confirm this and see a statement coming from them. certainly, president obama put a lot on the line when the u.s. was criticized for what he said leading from behind in this effort in libya. we're all waiting to see what the white house comes out to say later on. >> i know you'll stay right there. when someone pops out, i'll get you on the air. thank you so much. reporting live from washington. let's go to senior from palo al alto. you have been listening to these developments and since the rise of the national transitional council. your initial reaction to all of this, sir. >> my nilinitial reaction is onf sheer joy. i think the transitional council would be too careful to tell their people and the world that this is gadhafi when it's not gadhafi. but, you know, justice has been done. it's too bad people like gadhafi can only die once. that's the prevailing view of the, of the people they terrorize. so, it's a great day. >> fouad, a question about that. if he is dead, all along the national transitional council said he wanted to give gadhafi a fair trial and that would prove something about these rebels. it would prove that they're fair minded and moving more towards a democratic form of government. that moammar gadhafgadhafi's de. you say you wish he could die twice, but, really? >> i know that fallen hard times but there was a line in the "terminator" where he says you have the right to remain silent. gadhafi had the right to remain silent. one man in the world who abused a whole nation and who stole its wealth and took away its libe liberty. none other than moammar gadhafi and look at the way he ends. he end the way saddam ended. suda saddam came out of a spider hole saying, i want to negotiate. this is the game this man played and i think if you really want one person who has been vindicated in the course of this event and this war, it's actually sarkozy. he has a new baby, the president of france. he has a new baby and been vindicated in libya. >> interesting point. very interesting point. but the hard work begins now because it's a government that has to really be formed and a legal system that has to be formed and institutions have to be built and an entire oil infrastructure needs to be mode modernized so it can supply these people and people with an opportunity, finally. >> a dawn of a new age for them. i think they're lucky to have these problem. they have a chance to build a country and many of our colleagues have noted and, as we know, look, this is a rich count country. it's not somalia or yemen, it just had terrible man at the helm. the chances for the libyans look good. they have favorable borders and they have two good countries on the borders tunisia and egypt and in some they have a right to celebrate. >> lots of secelebrations. we want to remind our viewers that moammar gadhafi is dead. it's 45 minutes past the hour. we want to bring you up to date. these events have been happening quickly this morning, we should say. >> they really have. you have the national transitional council on alg jazeera saying moammar gadhafi is dead. a photograph from the afp warning you that it is quite graphic, but a picture that afp says shows him being arrested and badly injured at that time. we know that a senior administration official say white house has not yet confirmed these reports. >> i don't believe the state department has confirmed it either. do we have jill doherty in kabul? she's our state department correspondent. anything coming out of the state department yet? >> christine and carol, i can tell you that we had an interview with secretary of state secretary clinton and just as we were setting up for that interview, i asked her about that and she said she cannot confirm these reports, but i asked her what the significance would be if it were true. and she said, it would add le t legitimacy and relief, she put it, for the new government. if gadhafi was still at large, the secretary said they would still have problems and continued security. but without them they'll have problems, of course, but it won't be this organized movement by the loyalists. christine, carol. >> the secretary of state was in libya not too long ago. do you know what they discised? . >> well, obviously, that was nothing new at this point that he was going to be captured or killed, but, certainly, they did discuss gadhafi and the way we've been talking about it. in fact, i was in libya just a few weeks ago. the idea was he was at large but the country had, in effect, moved on. they were starting to form a government. that fighting was continuing and eessentially he was out of the picture. however, you have to say that symbolically and, also, in the kind of command and control way, it's very important if these reports are correct that he is gone. just to have him out of the capability and continuing the fight. remember that they were not going to say that the country had been lifted until sirte was captured ask certainly if this news about gadhafi is true, that would be a big boom for their ability to move forward politically and every other way. >> jill, it's christine. clearly, a lot of work to do in these critical hours after this news. i mean, jamierubin was saying -- maybe she can't hear me. >> she is in kabul, afghghanisa. >> she was setting up an interview with the secretary of state hillary clinton who, ironically, was just in libya. the most high-profile visit, the first big visit from a u.s. diplomat to the rebels and just hours really before this news of moammar gadhafi. >> she was sitting down with the national transitional council. that's probably what jill is going to talk to her about. i'm sure she'll expand her questions to include what's happening now in libya. jamie rubin. it's just an amazing development because at one point because it's taken so long to find moammar gadhafi, some people thought it would never happen. some people thought he had escaped to another country and was hiding there. others political future of libya with or without moammar gadhafi, it's hard to say whether ithis is th beginning of the end or just the beginning of another phase. >> we're going to go out to dan rivers. where is dan rivers? >> he's in tripoli and he'll do an interview with minister. the real confirmation, that last 1% clarity of whether moammar gadhafi is dead. let's go right now to cnn international. >> yeah, well, there is wild celebration on the streets of tripoli here. everyone believes that colonel moammar gadhafi has been either captured or killed. i'm joined now by the minister of information who just got off the phone. what more can you tell us, sir? >> everything we got confirmed that gadhafi has been dead in the way that he cannot confirm it yet. we are waiting now for a press conference or a press statement and confirm this officially. our official line that will not confirm anything unless the chairman or the prime minister confirmed that. but every indication that we got from colonel gadhafi is history. >> the world is watching this and the world is thinking this is just one of the most historic days in libya's history. you are fairly certain now that he is dead. what is your reaction when that is confirmed? it is a massive day for this country. >> it is, indeed, historic moment not only for liberation for our land, but also for the falling of the most dictator on the earth. libyan people have stopped to celebrate. i hope that we're not going to lose more life by the celebration, but they deserve everything to be happy about and celebrate about. >> what can you tell us about the circumstances in which he was killed? was he killed by ntc fighters or nato? >> according to our people, they are attacking the house where he was there and he tried to flee and they killed him. when they met him, he was alive and he was killed in action. >> he was shot by ntc? >> this is what we got from our people. the whole story would be told maybe in one hour or so. i know that the body that the government want to see are moving and the deputy prime minister and the minister of wounded are on their way to misrata to prove that. we're going to have everything in an hour or so. >> was he killed while he wads in a vehicle or while he was in a building? >> i told he was killed when he was trying to ride a vehicle. i cannot confirm any of these stories. this is speculation. we'll hear a lot of stories. but i think in a few hours, we're going to have the whole story this is a historic moment and we like to make sure that we have the true story to be told to the world. the world are supporting libya and they deserve to hear the real story . >> thank you very much. the information minister for the ntc here. the 20th of october, i think it's fair to say, will go down in history as a pivotal point in the revolution here in the struggle to get rid of gadhafi. one of the most dramatic days in the arab spring. >> dan rivers, i suppose we have 100% confirmation that moammar gadhafi is dead. at least we think we do. dan rivers reporting live from tripoli. a new picture that came into us. >> that's right, a new picture from afp, the news agency, that we'll show you in a moment. it looks like a storm drain and a concrete tunnel or two tubes. there is a loyalist who is next to it who is clearly dead and then the words scrawled above it in arabic. ben wedemen saw this picture, as well. >> the place of the rat, gadhafi. beneath that it said god is great. of course, the use of the word rat. he called the rebels rats from the very beginning and they sort of started to play on that. they would call him a rat. so, it was a good deal of humor, despite this grim situation. >> you heard from the ntc what he was just saying about, he said that he was dead but how he was dead. he couldn't confirm. still trying to, still trying to be cautious, even now, about what's going on here. >> because communications aren't very good. so many times before, we heard that his sons were killed in this place or that place and it turned out not to be true and the ntc, itself, would tell us afterwards that this was really just a propaganda ploy to throw their enemies, the loyalists off the track. so, yeah, we really must wait until -- >> going back to that picture, though, the earlier reports we had that moammar gadhafi was hiding out in a hole and, of course, that could be the storm drains that we saw. so, i mean, just in what you know about moammar gadhafi, the idea that he was holed up in that storm drain for who knows how long, he came out with his hands up, there were reports that he was saying, don't shoot me, don't shoot me. we don't really know what happened. just your impressions of moammar gadhafi hiding out in that storm drain. >> it's a bit of a surprise because we knew that he escaped from tripoli back in august with a large convoy and a lot of cash and a lot of weapons. for him to end up in a man hole or a sewer, seems a bit out of character. >> we're still trying to confirm all these details, i should point out, as well. also reports of a big nato air strike in the region. we don't know exactly how he was killed. ntc saying the same thing. we'll learn more throughout the day. this is, as you point out, a good day for u.s. policy. >> i think it is for the west and for nato and as your guests earlier mentioned, for nicolas sarkozy. let's face it. president obama igreed to do something that the french and the british agreed to do. it was not unlike previous u.s. involvement in iraq and afgh afghanistan and other places. this was not led by the united states, this was led by paris and london. u.s. provided crucial assistance and, as i said earlier, this seemed pretty easy thing to do considering we had a rebel army on the ground. you had the arab league asking you to do it. but even so, some in this country didn't want it to happen. i think president obama has been vindicated and the idea in certain circumstances with the right conditions and with u.n.

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