hi, everyone. i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. it is 4:00 in new york. 11:00 p.m. in israel and gaza, where we may be on the verge of a breakthrough in the unprecedented hostage situation on the ground there. sources tell nbc news that a tentative deal has been reached for release of some of the hostages held by hamas. a spokesperson for the israeli military cautioning in the last few hours that there is no final deal yet, but that there is, quote, some progress. the israeli cabinet meeting to discuss the issue at this hour. here are the terms as it stands right now. this is according to a senior u.s. official. 50 women and children would be traded for 150 palestinian prisoners in israeli custody. there would also be a pause in the fighting for four days to allow for more rounds of hostages exchanges and for more humanitarian aid to enter gaza. up to 300 to 400 trucks per day. overall, the deal adds up to what u.s. officials are calling the most significant diplomatic breakthrough since the war began, if it can hold. and that is a big if. officials are stressing that the deal could fall apart at any moment. but for now, there is momentum in the push to release the more than 200 hostages 245 have been held captive by hamas for six weeks, a number that includes people from 40 countries and 40 children. that is according to the israeli government. they were taken from communities along israel's border with gaza that were stormed by hamas on october 7th in an attack that killed more than 1,200 people. and since then, they have been held in a war zone. israeli forces have pushed into gaza, bombarded the territory with thousands of air strikes, killing 14,000 people according to the health ministry in gaza, which is run by hamas. and that is where we start this hour with ruby chin, far of 19-year-old itay chen, an american israeli citizen who was serving in israel's army and is believed to be one of the hostages. from our top state department official during the obama administration, msnbc political analyst rick stengel. but first, let's turn to nbc news correspondent raf sanchez in tel aviv, israel. raf, what is the latest? >> alicia, we are now three hours in to this marathon cabinet meeting where israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu is urging his right-wing cabinet to vote to approve this deal. speaking at the beginning of the cabinet meeting, he said this is a difficult decision, but it is the right decision. the deal he is asking them to approve is the one you laid out, 50 women and children hostages released over four days in exchange for a four-day ceasefire, the release of 150 palestinian women and children being held in israeli jails, and israeli official also telling nbc news israel has agreed to suspend drone flights overhead gaza for a limited period each day while hamas gathers these hostages. this israeli official also saying there is the possibility that this initial deal could be extended. one day of extended ceasefire in exchange for ten hostages. they say that that could continue indefinitely. but that israel is skeptical, and that they will watch closely whether or not hamas delivers on this first tranche of hostages. alicia, we also heard from prime minister benjamin netanyahu at the start of this cabinet meeting saying that president biden directly intervened in these negotiations and successfully improved the terms in israel's favor so more hostages coming out in return for lower costs paid by israel. alicia, just in terms of the timeline here, it is 11 p.m. here now. they are still in this cabinet meeting. we are expecting a vote some time in the next couple of hours. assuming the israeli government approves this deal, there is then under israeli law a 24-hour period in which victims of the palestinians who were convicted and being held in israeli prisons, but are now slated for release can appeal to the supreme court of israel and ask that their release be blocked. now so far in israeli history, the supreme court has never blocked a high-stakes diplomatic deal like this. but the israeli official says that 24-hour window exists. so the clock will start when and if israel's cabinet approves this deal. it will extend 24 hours on, and it is only after that point that we will start to expect to see some of these hostages come out of gaza. some of these palestinian prisoners being released. and alicia, i'll just close by saying our focus is on the hostages here. but for civilians inside of gaza, this deal holds the promise of their first days of respite after 46 days of bombardment following hamas terrorist attack on october 7th. alicia? >> raf, i know that you have spoken with the families of hostages. what are they saying? >> so these are anxious hours. as far as we know, no israeli family has been told it is going to be your loved one coming out as part of this deal. but obviously, it is the families who are missing children or women who are the ones daring to hope right now that it might be their loved ones as part of this agreement. there are going to be, if this deal goes through, some unbelievably overjoyed, relieved people, but that's only 50 hostages, alicia, out of a total of 240. there are 190 families who are going to have a longer wait, assuming this deal goes through. we spoke earlier to shelly shemtov. she is the mother of a 21-year-old named omer who was kidnapped from the music festival in the early hours of october 7th. the last glimpse she had of her son, he was tied up in the back of a hamas pickup truck, being carried into gaza. and she knows that a 21-year-old man is not going to be in the first list of hostages being released. may not be in the second. may not be in the third. take a listen to a little bit of our conversation earlier. >> i'm happy for the one who will get free. but i am sad for myself and omer. because as i said, i'm a mother. and all the mother needs is to protect her son. and no mother in all over the world needs to feel like i feel now. >> and alicia, i asked her a painful question, whether she is emotionally prepared for the possibility that her son could be in gaza for years. because previous negotiations to release one israeli soldier held by hamas took years. omer is not a soldier, but he is 21 years old. he is an israeli citizen. he has no dual nationalities. i asked her is she ready for that possibility, and she said no, no, no, no. he has to be released. alicia? >> a difficult question indeed. ruby, i want your reaction to the news of a potential deal. >> i think we have a new family, which is the family of the hostage families. and if one of our family members is about to be joyful, then we need to be joyful with them. and we should also thank president biden and the administration, which i know has been working around the clock to broker this deal, to get a stage where a framework can be in place for additional deals to happen. we also have similar in the fact that italia is 19 years old, and most likely is not part of this deal. and we just need to continue to have hope that the international community will continue its efforts to bring all of the hostages back home alive, well, and in a time frame that is not years. >> ruby, what more do you want us to know about itay? tell us about him. >> a new yorker, grew up on the streets of flatbush. itay lived here most of his life, even going to the u.s. every summer visiting family in long island, boston, catching baseball games, watching basketball. he played professional basketball until the age of 18. spunky kid. he needed to earn his minutes on the court. so he played spunky and always played against bigger kids, more physical kids, but he never backed down. i hope to think part of that dna, the tough dna of "the new yorker" hopefully when he had his moment, he knew how to survive the holocaust that he was in to at least be a at a stage now where he is being held captive after being abducted. but that i think is the most difficult thing to comprehend, which i don't think the word "pain" is a good description, not knowing if your son is alive or not for 46 days. >> i think most parents know just how incomprehensible that is, rick. i want to pick up on something that ruby referenced there which is the president and the administration working to make sure that this deal in place also then provides a framework for future deals, focusing on the short-term, the immediate. this is being debated right now while also keeping an eye to making sure that the door is open for future negotiation. >> yes. i just want the say how agonizing this is for israeli families, agonizing for the palestinian families. the israeli woman who said no mother anywhere should have to go through what i have gone through. i'm sure we all agree with that. >> david rohde who himself has been in a hostage situation says when you're the hostage, you know what is happening. when you're the family, you were in the dark. you have a million questions about what is happening to your loved one. >> yes. and there is absolutely nothing guaranteed, not their release, not how long it will be. but to your question about the biden administration, i think behind the scenes, the biden administration has been working as tremendously. they have obviously some control over -- not control, but some influence over the israelis where part of biden's calculation was if i show unconditional support for the israelis and they will listen to me when i ask them to be better, more careful. also, qatar has been involved in these negotiations. we have our largest military base in the middle east in doha. we are in frequent contact with them. doha has been acting as a kind of middle man in these negotiations, and that has been something that seems to have been successful as well. but the caveat being this -- these kinds of things can break up and collapse at the 11th hour. >> as the administration continues to remind us. >> yes, yes. so, you know, hope -- trust but verify, keep your fingers crossed. >> very tenuous indeed. raf sanchez, i don't know if i still have you with us. talk us through what have been the stick points in these negotiations. and stepping back, big picture, set the stakes. what does this mean for israelis, this potential deal? what does it mean for palestinians? >> well, starting with the palestinians, as we were saying, it's been 46 days of unrelenting bombardment. 13,000 people killed inside of gaza, according to the hamas-run health ministry. the u.n. estimates more than half of the houses in gaza have been damaged. so four days is not a long time in terms of a ceasefire, but it opens the window for large scale humanitarian aid to get into gaza, something the u.s. has been pushing for. it gives the possibility for palestinian mothers and fathers just to catch their breaths for a moment to know that they can step out into the street without fighting going on. for israel, i've been covering this war since the opening hours of october 7th when we woke up here in tel aviv to rockets overhead, and we saw these chilling videos of hamas terrorists on the street of sderot. this has been a nightmare israel has not been able to wake up from. the rocket fire has stopped. hamas fighters have been pushed into gaza. but knowing that there are 240 people, including these tiny children being held, most likely in the tunnels away from the sunlight inside of gaza has been a nightmare. and 50 of them were to walk out some time this week, it would be just an unbelievable weight off the shoulders of the people of israel who know full well that there are another 190 or so. i can tell you from the israeli government's perspective, they are absolutely adamant that this deal only came about because of the military pressure that they have put on hamas inside of gaza. there has been a lot of concern around the world that a -- this israeli ground offensive inside gaza might actually endanger a hostage deal. israeli government is saying it is what led to it. that's an unknowable. we don't know what would have happened if another course had been taken. i can tell you the streets here are quiet. this is a country that has been absolutely glued to the news since october 7th, never more so than tonight as their government is meeting into the late, late hours. it is now 11:15. we still have no idea when the israeli cabinet meeting is going to break up, when this vote is going to happen. but i can tell you people here are holding their breath. >> i want to read a statement you put out with other families with other americailies taken hostage. quote, i has been 45 days our children, our parent our siblings, our nieces and nephews, our cherished loved ones were taken hostage by hamas orists on october 7th. we don't know wre they are or how they are doing. we only want them ho as we gather to commemorate thanksgiving, let u hold those with us close and keep those who can't join us this year inur hearts. in solidarity w our families and all the peopleei held hostage by terrorists in gaza, we ask that you reserve a special seat of your thanksgiving dinner table w hopeful hearts that our loved ones are released and returned home safely. happy thanksgiving. i wonder, ruby, what your message is. you know the cabinet is meeting right now, the israeli cabinet. what your message is to those hold utahs who say this deal isn't good enough. >> maybe just refer to the statement. thanksgiving is one of the most unique holidays that is pan-religious, meaning jewish people celebrate that. we even here celebrate thanksgiving annually where we enjoy the thanksgiving watching a football game afterwards and enjoy being with family. and i think anybody in the u.s. can relate to that statement of having an empty chair for those that have not been given the privilege to have a family dinner and enjoy family. i would like to comment a component of the deal that i do not think that you mentioned is the fact that the international red cross should be provided access to the remaining hostages, and the hostages should receive medical attention. that has not happened until now, which is something basic, even in conduct of war. but unfortunately, 46 days, this has not happened. >> raf, two questions for you. one, i want you to pick up on what ruby just said there of the possibility of the red cross being able to give medical attention to some of these hostages, but also you have been on our air all day. we have been watching this unfold all day from here in the united states. your sense of what the next few hours could look like. >> well, alicia, at some point prime minister netanyahu and his cabinet are going to emerge. we don't know if they will speak in front of the cameras, but our expectation is the prime minister has the votes inside of his cabinet to pass this deal. i can tell you a couple of hours ago there was a large barrage of rocket fire from gaza here into central israel. the skies here lit up by iron dome missile interceptors. counterintuitively, alicia, that may be a good sign, because what you often see in these situations in the final hours before a ceasefire deal is these palestinian militant groups in gaza trying to get their final blows in before the guns go silent. so the fact that there was a lot of rocket fire earlier may be a sign that both hamas and palestinian islamic jihad believe that there is about to be a ceasefire going into effect. once we hear from the israeli government, if they have indeed passed this bill, like i said, it starts this 24-hour period where israelis can go to the supreme court and try to block the release of these 150 palestinian prisoners. as you know, alicia, we've been talking a lot about the supreme court in israel over the last year or so. the supreme court has never derailed one of these negotiations in the past. it is not clear if anyone would try to derail this deal, but you can imagine people will be very, very anxiously watching the docket at the israeli supreme court to see if anybody does file a motion. assuming the court does not intervene and this deal 24 hours on goes into effect, what we're expecting on the first day of the deal, for starters, the guns to go silent inside of gaza. the thousands of israeli troops in gaza city to freeze their positions. the hamas fighters on the outskirts of gaza city and further south to also stop their attacks, stop their movements. and then for this first bunch of hostages, we expect it probably would be 10, 15 or so to be handed over into the custody of the international committee of the red cross. as we have seen with the four hostages who have been released so far, these are normally highly choreographed affairs from hamas' part. you see these masked gunman handing over these hostages to the red cross workers in their white bibs. and either the red cross workers will head directly to the israel-gaza border, or potentially they will go south to egypt and the hostages will be delivered to israel from there. alicia? >> we thank ruby chen for joining us and for sharing more about your son. we will all be watching with you. raf sanchez, as always, thank you for spending time with us. please come back when you learn anything about this potential deal. it could be any moment now. and when we come back, d.a. fani willis taking a hearing. who she says has intimidated victims and witnesses in social media posts. the judge is issuing his ruling right now. that breaking decision is coming up next. plus, new house speaker mike johnson has made the trek to mar-a-lago pledging his fealty to the four times indicted ex-leader. how the party's full trumpification is being received back on capitol hill. congressman allred joins us on that. and new fears about the growing rhetoric from donald trump and the threat it poses to democracy. all that after this. do not go anywhere. ot go anywhee the power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book! who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up to keep you online. only from xfinity. home of the xfinity 10g network. breaking news today out of georgia, just minutes ago a judge appears to have rejected a request by the fulton county district attorney to order one of the disgraced ex-president's 18 co-defendants in georgia back to jail. district attorney fani willis took the lead for the first time in a hearing related to her sprawling racketeering indictment, making her case why she says one of the disgraced ex-president's 18 co-defendants should go back to jail while he waits in trial. willis cited a podcast and more than a dozen social media posts harrison floyd has made since his release in an effort to, quote, effort to intimidate co-defendants and witnesses in her case. what willis calls a, quote, intentional flagrant violation of floyd's bond agreemen as for floyd'sargument, his attorney say he is simply excing his first amendment rights, calling willis' request a retaliatory measure for rejecting a plea offer. joining our conversation, former top official at the department of justice andrew weissman and atlanta journal constitution political reporter greg bluestein is here. greg, walk us through the latest here. >> judge mcafee just finished speaking moments ago. he is calling both sides back closer to 5:00 to hash out arguments. but he appeared to indicate there was a technical violation of the bond. but what he also said is not every violation of bond compels revoking that bond. so he is indicating he is likely not to throw harrison floyd in prison. he is asking the state and the defense for recommendations on how to be more explicit in the terms of his bond agreement, perhaps to have more restrict rules on what he can and cannot say on social media. fani willis objected to that saying look, harrison floyd can publicly criticize me all he wants. i don't care about his opinion. but he shouldn't criticize potential witnesses in this case. >> andrew weissman, are you surprised by what we just heard from the judge? >> i'm not. i think one area where fani willis did a very good job and one area where she needed to be tighter in her arguments is she did a really good presentation on how there was a violation here and laid out a lot of proof about either communicating directly or indirectly with a witness or co-defendant. and she had very good proof of that. she also had good proof respect to intimidation. the court of course was very interested in whether it was intentional, how direct or indirect it was. where i think that the parties and particularly the government needed to spend a little more time is what's the remedy? not every violation means you go to jail. there are ways to have stricter conditions. there are ways to impose restrictions on what you can post. there is restrictions on travel, on house arrest. so i could see the judge saying you know what? even with everything you've shown, i'm not sure they t remedy here is to actually send someone to jail pretrial. that's a very, very serious remedy. and i do think one thing may be in the back of his mind is that a similar motion could be made coming down the road with respect to another co-defendant, namely donald trump. and so i think that may be what some of what's animating the decision here. >> when you talk about appropriate remedy, we do need to find a way to deal with this, right? the current method is not working. what could that then potentially look like, andrew? >> well, one could be being much more specific about what you can post online. in other words, that saying you know what? 23 you generally post online, but you're specifically tagging this and calling the attention to a co-defendant or to a witness, that's impermissible. do not do that. do not speak about the facts of the case. you can give very clear direction about what you can and cannot do. the other more draconian thing would be to say that you shouldn't be posting at all about certain topics, period, regardless of who it's directed to. so, for instance, the federal judge who had the roger stone case, she was dealing with an issue of roger stone posting an image of the judge with crosshairs in it. and his ability to post at all was restricted by the court. so this is a question of -- which comes up from time to time, i'm trying to make sure it's clear as possible. you do need to provide notice and due process for a defendant before they are remanded and their liberty is taken away. >> but greg, let's talk about the specific defendant, because ajc had some reporting reminding us this defendant has been the most combative, and that his legal strategy in the racketeering case is to prove that trump won the election. i just wonder, how is that going for him? >> yeah, i think it's siff to say he is pursuing a very unpredictable strategy, a legal strategy. he surrendered way back in august. before he even hired an attorney, he ended up staying behind bars for five days. but that also made him a celebrity to a lot of trump supporters and helped him raise more than $300,000 for his legal defense. his strategy has really revolved around trying to prove the lie that donald trump won the 2020 election. and in doing so, he subpoenaed state and local officials who really have nothing to do with this case. but, again, it's playing out among the far right media and among his far right supporters as if he is some truth teller freedom fighter for the trump cause. >> it is so striking, rick, that it's one thing when we watch many republicans tie their political futures to continuing to carry donald trump's about what happened during the election. but to stake your own legal future, your own freedom on a lie, is that delusion? is that loyalty at all costs? i don't even know how to qualify that. >> yeah, it's hard to understand. i think the judge's decision is reasonable here in the sense that some of what he is doing is protected speech. being a knucklehead is not against the law is what the judge was essentially saying. and he obviously is a disturbed person. his attorney also made the point that in his bond order, there was no mention of social media like there was in donald trump's bond order. so i think to andrew's point, what the judge will do is narrow and tailor it specifically to him. obviously, what he has been doing with election workers is odious, but the judge is making a solemn decision we're not going penalize him for that, but we're going try to circumscribe what he is doing. >> andrew weissman, before we got this breaking news, my big question coming in was this was fani willis's first day in the courtroom. why did she choose this day? the significance of her being in the courtroom, andrew, and how much more can we expect to see her? >> yeah, i did find that interesting. i think it's going to be -- i'm sort of curious whether we're going to see jack smith as well in the january 6th case, particularly as it leads up to the trial, given his enormous experience in court. i think fani willis, because this was such a serious step to remand a defendant, that is to send somebody to jail was essentially carrying the flag. it does suggest that this seriousness with which her office takes this position. and so she was trying to send a message publicly, a message to the other defendants, and a message to the court as to the seriousness. i don't know that she should really take this as a loss. i mean, i guess he is not being remanded, but the court is going to tighten the restrictions and make it clear. and you can be sure that if this happens again with those tightened restrictions, that this judge who seems very no-nonsense is going to take action. >> greg bluestein, as always, thank you for being with us and briggs your reporting. andrew weissman, you just dropped a new episode of "prosecuting donald trump" if you need something to listen to on your thanksgiving drive, let's that be it. still to come, after facing an onslaught of criticism for daring to work across the aisle and govern, house speaker mike johnson jetted off last night to, you guessed it, mar-a-lago. we'll tell you all about that, next. xt ( ♪ ♪ ) welcome to big tobacco's fantasyland. a new, healthier world without cigarettes. as long as you don't count the 6 trillion sold worldwide every year. and vaping won't lead to smoking, if you ignore the research that says otherwise. in big tobacco's fantasyland, the deadliest industry is your friend. ♪ today, my friend you did it, you did it, you did it... ♪ centrum silver is now clinically shown to support cognitive health in older adults. it's one more step towards taking charge of your health. so every day, you can say, ♪ youuu did it! ♪ with centrum silver. it's become a rather embarrassing sort of rite of passage for anyone seeking anything in the modern republican party. an appearance before donald trump to bow to profess loyalty to a man whose only loyalty has been to himself. this week, it was the new house speaker mike johnson's turn to kiss the ring. two sources familiar with the meeting tell nbc news johnson stopped by trump's mar-a-lago estate last night. the house speaker reportedly in the doghouse among his conservative peers for committing the grave sin of working with democrats to fund the government. go figure. he had earlier bucked party tradition by endorsing trump for president. let's bring in democratic congressman from texas. he is also running against ted cruz for senate next year. congressman, i wonder what it says to you that the current speaker of the house is busy down in mar-a-lago visiting the disgraced ex-president. >> well, i think you said it right. it's embarrassing. and the prerequisite for speaker johnson becoming speaker was believing or being a part of the big lie the last election was stolen. and, you know, to me what we're seeing is folks feel like they have to go to the former president to have some kind of legitimacy. i look at the guy who i'm running against, ted cruz, the former president spoke about him and his family in terms that i know i certainly would never forgive. he even stood in front of a republican convention and told people to vote their conscience, but now has become one of the biggest backers in leading the charge in trying to overturn the last election. this is what we're going to have to get used to until we get back to a more responsible version of the republican party. . there are many, many reasons why this matters on that list of reasons the fact that it is also really prohibiting them from doing the basic work of governing the thing their constituents sent them to washington, d.c. to do. i want to remind everyone, speaker johnson was among the republicans who refused to certify the 2020 election. he led an amicus brief signed by 100 republicans in support of a lawsuit in your state in texas seeking to invalidate election results in four battleground states won by president biden. and now he is the speaker. and as we see just in the past few hours, apparently seeking trump's approval. what does that tell you about how the lies trump told in 2020, the ghost about 2020 continue to haunt not just the republican party, but our democracy today. >> that's right. it does haunt our democracy. and there was a period there where it seemed like we were going to in a bipartisan way reject the idea that we can try to overturn elections in this country, reject the idea that you can attack police officers and riot and the capitol, that was going to be rejected in a bipartisan way. and speaker mccarthy gave a speech on the house floor that i thought was leading that way. obviously, we've gone in a very different direction to now i think the biggest divide that i see isn't between necessarily democrats and republicans, but between folks who believe in our democracy and folks who don't. and there are folks like liz cheney, mitt romney and kinzinger who fall in this category, folks who are going to fight for our democracy and yes, from a conservative point of view. and other folks who seems like they'll do anything to stay in power, do anything to keep this kind of lie going. and to me it's incredibly dangerous. that's what we have to reject in this next election. >> the binary has changed? >> yes. i think he's sort of making it a compact with the devil. i know the speaker would hate that analogy. but part of the problem is the framers were against the ideas of parties in america. they called them faction. and this is what they anticipated, that people would put a person over a party and party over a country. that's what these republicans are doing. and to the congressmen, we're supposed to prize democracy over everything. you see any possibility that this, what we once thought of maybe the democracy of the republican party can make a comeback in any way? is there any evidence that that is happening in texas or anywhere else in congress? >> i do think it's possible. i think the first thing we have to do is beat them in this next election. i'm not a politician by trade. i'm a professional football player turned civil rights lawyer. and i can tell you, though, in my former job as a professional athlete, what we could see if something is working, you'll see other teams doing that too. but if it stops working, nobody is going to do it. if it continues to work, that you're going reject our democracy, try and overturn our democracy, become -- pursue these extreme policies that are something out of our history books, not of anything that we've ever experienced in this country, then you'll see more of it. but if we beat it, if we beat ted cruz here in texas, if we make sure that we don't allow this ideology to come back, then i think it will go away as well. >> congressman, to your point, but sort of on the other side of what is working and repeating it, there are some late converts to trumpism. you have a former republican colleague of yours peter myer who lost a primary after voting to impeach trump. he now is running for senate like you. he says he'll support whoever the republican nominee ends up being, even if it is donald trump. in an interview with politico, he said, quote, m overarching goal to make joe biden a one-term president. i think the economic damage t he has wrought and will continue to bring will have far more wide onhe country than a secondnces nonconsecutive trump administration and frankly, if donald trum returned to the oval office, there would probably be fewt are motivators to rein in executive power. i've been railing against the risks of the office of the presidency which i think is the most dangerous position in the country today. having lost a seat over voting for a trump impeachment, but coming back and saying okay, but i'm still going to support the guy should he be our nominee. the inaccurate assessment of the biden economy, and then this extraordinarily dangerous game of chicken where he is saying, well, if donald trump were president, then that would be a great opportunity to rein in executive power. i don't think we want to get to that point. >> right. well, listen. i'm sure peter won't lose any sleep over this. but i was incredibly disappointed to see that. he is something who i had a lot of respect for his service to this country and for the way he served in his one term in congress. and i think that it would behoove him to be who he is and to focus on the folks he is trying to represent, instead of talking so much about the presidential race. i know who i am running here in texas, which is the 30 million texans who deserve a senator who cares about them, not one like ted cruz is constantly putting us against each other or podcasting three times a week or doing everything he can to get on fox news. that's not what texans need. and i'm sure peter knows that that's also not know what folks need in michigan. to me that's incredibly disappointing, but it's part of this pattern that we're seeing. this is also part of why i think it's so important that we make sure we come together in a coalition that's made up of democrats and republicans and independents, and everyone who cares about this country, and rejects this in this next election so that we can get back to a responsible two-party system in which you don't have to worry whether or not you lose an election, you lose your democracy. >> congressman colin allred, as always, thank you for spending some time with us. up next, a look at how republicans are navigating and struggling on the issue of abortion on the campaign trail. plus everyone is asking where is nicolle? she is going to join us, coming up. can't we all agree that we are not going put a woman in jail or give her the death penalty if she gets an abortion? >> can you believe that's what it takes to get called moderate on abortion. nbc news today on how republican primary voters are giving nikki haley a closer look because of her stance on abortion. turning away from donald trump, who of course went to the three justices responsible for overturnin e, something he continues to brag about. one voter telling nbc news if trump hadn't done that and hadn had the mouth, i would have voted for him, she said. calling abortion her biggest issue. she was very upset when roe v. wade was overturned. while nikki haley may talk a better game by not wanting to, you know, punish women, it doesn't actually make her a moderate. here she is on the republican debate stage saying she will sign any abortion ban, no matter how extreme if it gets through the senate. >> i am unapologetically pro-life. >> would you support a 15-week federal limit? >> i would support anything that would pass, because that's what would save more babies and support more moms. i will sign anything where we can get 60 senate votes. >> joining us at the table, host of the podcast fast politics and special correspondent for "vanity fair" and rick can back with us. if the most conservative voices in the republican field go way out there on abortion, then what is considered the center of that pack, the moderate position in that pack? becomes something that on any other day would be seen as fairly -- >> this is a right. and it's funny because mainstream voters don't like it. republicans keep losing on it. we see more and more this idea you can't get a doctor to treat, horror stories, states like texas is making women who might have been on the fence wildly pro-choice. we are really seeing firsthand that abortion is health care. and yet republican candidates cannot offer any other view but the same sort of deluded trumpism. i would say nikki haley did sign an abortion ban when she was governor. so that hardly sets her up to be miss moderate. i don't think any of these people are moderate. you see this on larger scale with the rest of the republican party. do you don't have republican senators voting against the party, so you don't have moderates. >> let's talk about where americans are. you have a "treet journal" out with a new poll that the majority of americans, # 5%, think a woman should b able to have an abortion any reason. that includes one-third of republicans. which has to mean that the calculus is let us get through the primary and once i get through the primary on the off chance that i, any republican candidate other than donald trump ends up being the nominee, i can modulate my position from there. >> yes. richard nixon famously said you run to the right in the centers and to the center in the general election. they are all prisoners of those extreme parts of the republican party that want the end abortion at any cost. they have to hesitate before they go to embrace any moderate position. what miss haley is doing is rhetorically embracing moderation where she governed like an extremist and in the debate, she said should would support all these extreme policies. any party that goes against the will of the people in a democracy is not a good position to be. >> it's interesting that their solution has been we are going to rebrand, right. we are going to rethink this pro-life then and then they do things like this h this is were use republicans are pushing to pare back the special supplemental nutrition for women, infants and children. spending had year arguing tough cuts are needed across the vernment amid the nation's mounting debt. the result is they may haveo begin putting people on wait lists to receive aid like breastfeeding support, baby formula, other nutrition assistance. >> love the fetus, hate the child, right? i mean, they stopped caring when the baby is born. it's terrible policy. it's always sort of been the republican policy. it's much more stark now. and look, the idea here is that mike johnson's religious beliefs are such that women should risk their lives not being able to get abortions, get really good -- look, republicans are going after meth priscilla own. now you see republicans -- i mean, there is a stay -- >> he said it was about state rights. they let ohio voters vote about it. then they say don't listen to the voters. they have proven it's not about states or voters in the states. i want to zoom and look at donald trump and play you just a little bit of him in his own words. take a listen. >> i am the one that got rid of roe v. wade and everybody said that was an impossible thing to do. i have given the pro-life people who are wonderful people and loving people. i have given them the power of negotiation because now they are able to negotiate something that's going to be very important. >> so i don't generally try to really minimize the amount that we have to listen to donald trump in his own words. in this case, it seems relevant because this is the argument he is making to primary voters about why it is that he needs to be reluctant because i think there was some question of was he going to pivot off of this. understanding what we have seen across the country anytime that states have gotten to vote about this in local elections, the way they have chosen to vote, and yet here he is claiming success. >> yeah. i mean, the idea of even saying that donald trump has a position on something is kind of a misnomer. whenever -- in any conversation he is in, he modulates his position based on who he is talking to and who the audience is. let's look at his history. he was pro-choice through most of his life. so i think this is just a position of convenience for him and he will modulate depending on what helps him get elected. >> i think back to being in parking lots across this country and interviewing voters during the past presidential -- no, during the past election, and the thing you kept hearing from voters in nevada, in arizona, was abortion as a proxy for extremism, right, they would say they've just gone too far out there and i can't even consider republicans because -- for some it wasn't even that they were staunchly pro-choice. it's that they saw this as a question of government overreach, and that would seem to give democrats an opportunity to tie a lot of points together, to talk about democracy and extremism, to talk about abortion and extremism. and for rejection of extremism, to become the common denominator. >> yeah. i think that's pretty much worked. we were supposed to have red wave in the midterm. and biden was smart and people really gave him a lot of trouble for this. he said it will pb about democracy, he gave democracy speeches. there was of a lot of criticism. in the end, voters said they cared about abortion, they cared about democracy, which were things that we hadn't originally seen people vote on. so i think it's true. i think people don't like this government overreaching. we see this again and again. all these special elections and even like the kentucky governorship ran on abortion. you don't run on abortion in a red state unless the calculus has really changed. >> why has it not changed for everyone? that's the question. thank you. still to come, the alarming growing -- the alarm growing around the ex-president and current republican frontrunners, authoritarian language when "deadline: white house" continues after this quick break. house" continues after this quick break. skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission and visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. control of crohn's means everything to me. ask your gastroenterologist about skyrizi. ♪ control is everything to me ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. hi, my name is damion clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. ♪ students... students of any age, from anywhere. students in a new kind of classroom. ♪ using our technology to power different ways of learning. ♪ harnessing ai to plant new beginnings. ♪ so when minds grow, opportunities follow. ( ♪♪ ) welcome to big tobacco's fantasyland. the industry's idea of a healthier tomorrow. where vapes are deemed safer. nevermind that they'll increase your risk of lung cancer. and they're anti-aging. because you're more likely to die younger from a stroke. in big tobacco's fantasyland, the deadliest industry can rebrand itself as your friend. president xi is a brilliant man. if you went all over hollywood to look for somebody to play the role of president xi, you couldn't find -- there is nobody like that. the look, the brain, the whole thing. how smart is kim jong-un? top of the line. people say, oh, this and that. really smart. putin, very smart. >> hi again. it is 5:00 in new york. i'm alicia menendez in for nicole wallace who will be joining us in a little bit. the person looking to lead the united states may admire the consequential and successful presidents who came before them. abraham lincoln, fdr, teddy roosevelt, but not donald trump. trump's admiration goes to the straw men, dictators, those who wield power we impunity, who put themselves above the people they serve. so it's no surprise that as he continues his third attempt for the white house donald trump's own rhetoric bears a resemblance to those he idolizes. his 2024 run has experts concerned as "the new york times" details in a new piece. he rose to power with political campaigns that largely attacked immigration from predominantly muslim countries and south of the united stat/mico border. but now in his third presidential bid, some of his sticious and debase attacks have been leveled at domestic opponents. the threat from outside forces mr. trump said is far less sinister, dangerous and grave than the threat from within. this tur inward has sounded new alarms among exper o autocracy who long worried about his phrase for foreign dictators and disdain for democracy ideals. increasingly intensive focus on perceived internal enemies was a hallmark of dangerous totalitarian leaders. the "times" spoke with peter hayes who outlines the feature of fascism. spoiler alert. the likely 2024 presidential nominee fulfills each one. he says fascism is understood iss an authoritarian far right system of government in witch hyper nationalism is a central component. >> the future does not belong to globalists. the future belongs to patriots. there is no circumstance under which the united states will allow international actors to trample on the rights of our citizens. >> also often features cult of personality with a straw man leader. >> we are going to support him, even if he goes to zwral, because he is a man for the people and by the people. >> he doesn't break through the fraud this time,better lock and load because it will be all over. >> the justification of violence and retribution against opponents. >> we pledge to you that we will root out the communists, maxists and radical thugs that live like vermin in our cntry. for those wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. >> and the repeated denigration of rule of law. >> now the marxists leftists once again using the same corrupt doj and the same corrupt fbi. the baseless indictment of me by the biden administration's weaponized department of injustice will go down as among the most horrific abuses of power in the history of our country. >> so there we have it. if donald trump becomes the 2024 nominee, which seems quite likely at this point, will it just be policy differences on the line, it will be entire american experiment on the ballot. we start with claire mccaskill and investigator reporter for "the washington post" carol len i can and charlie sykes and with me host of fast politics podcast and "vanity fair" special correspondent molly. carol, talk about the evolution we have seen in trump in his rhetoric how he used to go after the outsiders, still does, and now he says the greatest threat is coming from within. >> when he was campaigning, donald trump often spoke about these threats outside the country, how we were going to build a greater wall and keep our country strong, make it strong again, make it better again by essentially another form of hyper nationalism, focusing on the country first. he talked about protecting for example americans from having to fight in endless wars and he would work to stop that. now his rhetoric has moved more into the vain of rooting out what he described the other day as vermin inside the country. an internal threat. you know, i want to say that there was a weigh station in between his campaign in 2016 and 2017 and his campaign today. and that weigh station was while he was president, it was clear that donald trump was edging towards this place that he is now, this dark place. the edge was he made clear he was not the president for all americans. most presidents, in fact all of them before donald trump, made an effort to unite the country, to try to even though they may have been elected by one party's faithful or another, still tried to encourage and enable and kind of, in essence, charm the other side and say i am the president for all of you. donald trump made clear during his presidency that he actually didn't like some of the people who didn't support him and he rooted against them openly. and that is what led us to this place now where a person who is charged with 91 felonies is claiming he has to look out for the american public from some of its own citizens. >> claire, donald trump warning about the threat from within in actuality, he is the leader of the actual threat, the real threat coming from within. i know i don't need to convince you of that. christopher wray said domestic violence extremism, terrorism warning bull tun from may say factors that could mobilize individuals to commit violence and legislative or judicial decisions pertaining to sociopolitical issues. he is the one stoking fear. he is the one stoking violence around this country. i don't know, claire, if it is irony or audacity that he would talk about the threat from within. >> well, it's a little of both. but let me even bring in what i think is also a very dangerous thread to this conversation. a lot of people have tried to draw similarities between mussolini and hitler and the use of the terminology like vermin and the drive that those men had towards autocracy and dictatorship. the difference, though, i think makes donald trump even more dangerous, and that is he has no philosophy he believes in. he is not trying to expand the boundaries in the united states of america. he is not trying to overcome a neighboring country like putin in ukraine. he is not going for a grandiose scheme of international dominance. all he wants is to look in the mirror and see a guy who is president. all he cares about is selfish self-promotion. that's the only philosophy he has. which makes him even more dangerous because he is actually said outloud it would be okay to terminate the constitution to keep him in power. he said this. he actually said those words. and the irony is all of these supposed conservative folks that have populated the republican party all stood around with their thumb in their mouth going, well, yeah, okay, i guess so. it's bizarre. >> well, charlie, to claire's point, because they do see a void in ideology, they do see a policy void that allows them to transpose whatever their agenda is on to donald trump as vehicle, you would think that destroying the constitution as a stated goal would be enough to dissuade them. here we are, speaker mike johnson going down to maria taylor to kiss the ring. >> that's the thing to understand about donald trump. he is a man of no fixed principles whatsoever. this has been a through line. the montage captured this. this has been a through line. his admiration for authoritarians, admiration for strong men, disdain for democracy formgs and the rule of law. the thing that is striking is that donald trump is saying all of this very clearly. he is telling us exactly what a second term would be. what it would mean for the rule of law. what it would mean for the divisions in this country. to carol's point, donald trump makes no pretense that he wants to bring america together again. he is the divider in chief. and it's hard to tell sometimes when he is more like mussolini or john gotti, whether or not he really wants to be, you know, a world-changing autocratic leader or whether he wants to be a mob boss. this is the peculiar threat that donald trump poses and this is not trump derangement syndrome. these are what donald trump is saying about himself, what his values are, and what his plans are. he has made it, i think, very clear, and he i think we out to take him seriously and literally. >> to that point, in as much as he has not focused on outsiders the way perhaps he did in his first run to the exclusion of insiders, he is still talking about immigrants. there is still a ton of anti-immigrant rhetoric. he said recently immigrants were poisoning the blood of our country. it's a huge part of his campaign. we talk about him pointing the finger at someone else trying to reshape and reimagine the fabric of this nation. >> right. i mean, trump is running on racism and nationalism and this sort of authoritarian populism. i would say, i mean, the question about trump is i think he is running to stay out of jail, at least when he started his campaign he did because he hoped it would slow down the indictments and remember he really has a lot riding on that. i would say what makes me the most concerned is that as we cover him in the mainstream media, we have to really talk about the -- and this a jay rosen, he is a journalist, journalism professor at nyu, he talks about the stakes, not the odds. the stakes. the stakes here are american democracy. so it doesn't necessarily matter what the pooling is if you lose democracy. and i think that is a really important thing to keep thinking about as we cover him. >> stakes, stakes, stakes, not the odds. more knowledge about how run thing, like he actually has institutional knowledge now. he knows who his allies washington are. that means theoretically that he can do more to circumvent the norms because he now actually understands the norms. talk about that foundation, right, paired with his admiration of dictators. >> absolutely. really important ball to watch, which is i'll just bring up bill barr, his former attorney general, who has said multiple times publicly that if you want a politician and a president who can enact your ideology and your viewpoint, the conservative gop policies, don't trust donald trump because he is not competent to do that. that was -- those are bill barr's words. of course, paraphrased slightly. however, donald trump now is trying to, through a series of projects, working with his long-time aide steven miller, trying to hand-pick a group of people who would -- who will not necessarily follow precedent, not necessarily follow case law, not necessarily follow the tried and true rules and regulations of a smooth, orderly government. he wants people that will push the envelope and do exactly what he wishes. so in terms of his ability to achieve what he wants to achieve, one of donald trump's stumbling blocks as president his first term was that many very, very serious, conservative republicans who signed up to defend him and to help him refused to cross those legal lines. and now he is trying to assemble a group that will bust through them. and that is something that all -- all of us, as americans, should be watching carefully because the rule of law, the precedence of case law, the regulations that ensure that people are treated equally and consistently, those are things donald trump will throw in the trash can, and he is trying to find people that will join him in doing so. >> claire, let's talk about some of those yes men and yes women. there are a whole group of people that are presidential appointees and he will be able to put into positions of power with or without checks. there are people, though, that will require senate confirmation, and then the question will become will republicans in the u.s. senate have the backbone to stand up to donald trump and say, no, we're not going to confirm these folks in. >> this is another reason why this election next year is so important. not just for president. it is a very tough mat for democrats to hold the senate. so just imagine for a moment if you will that republicans control the senate and, therefore, the confirmation process. and imagine for a minute that mitch mcconnell is no longer the leader, that the leader is now one of these far-right folks, maybe somebody as bad as hawley or cruz or the idiot coach from alabama that doesn't understand he's tearing our military apart. imagine what they will do with a confirmation process. and it is really interesting. i would say to all of the people that are surrounding trump and saying to him right now, we'll do whatever you say, boss. you want us to owe blow under the constitution? we will blow up the constitution. you want us to seize voting machines, we will seize voting machines. you want to take over the military with your lack qataris, we will do it. by the way, the last people who said we will do whatever you say, boss, a bunch just pled guilty to felonies in georgia. >> i think that is happening in the background of all of this. charlie, there is also the question in the way in which he is going to use his mult megaphones. i want to read a little bit of the latest analysis in the "washington post" because he talks about a post of trump's on social media where he said he would drive out the globalists, cast out the communists and fascists and rout the fake news media. what about routing t -what does it mean that the guy who will almost certainly be the republican nomee wants to rout me and my colleagues? this this question,rump's post bass a success. he wants me and others who work in the industry to feel unsettled and more importantly he wants his supporters to know he can be unsettling to us. the question is twofold. talk about trump liking to make his opponents scared and uncomfortable and also his full frontal attacks on a free and fair press. >> well, this is nothing new from donald trump. it's just been escalating. the question is, weibring the muscle of the government to bear behind it. one of the things we have seen the last few years is that even, you know, so-called free market conservatives and free speech conservatives were willing to get in line behind, say, ron desantis using the power of the state to go after critics. so this is again one of the movements of the window of acceptability. but i think that donald trump's real power here is not just government power to intimidate news outlets, and there are many of them, frankly. there are many levers he could actually pull. but also his willingness to turn his supporters, to make people angry, to make people fearful. and one of his great political successes, let's be honest about it, has been to discredit all fact-based journalism in the eyes of tens of millions of americans. and i think we can expect that obviously to accelerate. t. claire, carol, charlie, thank you. when we return, a dire warning from three high-powered constitutional law experts all conservatives who say men ma of their colleagues have turned their backs on the constitution and ruled over for the disgraced ex-president. what they are calling for now to protect the rule of law. that's next. plus, we are on the verge of a victory for democracy in one key battleground state. it comes a day after the latest effort to gut the voting rights act, one of this country's landmark civil rights laws. and our dear friend nicole will join us to explain where she has been. she will be with us a little later in the hour with very big news. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. do not go anywhere. hey, grab more delectables. you know, that lickable cat treat? de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat. (carolers ♪ iphone 15 pro, your husband deserves it! ♪ (mom) ♪carolers? to tell me youe want a new iphone? a better plan is verizon. (vo) black friday starts now. turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis takes you off course. put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when i wanted to see results fast, rinvoq delivered rapid symptom relief and helped leave bathroom urgency behind. check. when uc tried to slow me down... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc caused damage rinvoq came through by visibly repairing my colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid-free remission... ...and the chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check, check, and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least 1 heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. put uc in check and keep it there with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq and learn how abbvie can help you save. in order for small businesses to thrive, ask your gastroenterologist about rinvoq they need to be smart, efficient, savvy. making the most of every opportunity. that's why comcast business is introducing the small business bonus. for a limited time you can get up to a $1000 prepaid card with qualifying internet. yep, $1000. so switch to business internet from the company with the largest fastest reliable network and that powers more businesses than anyone else. learn how you can get $1000 back for your business today. comcast business. powering possibilities. . what is the threat of trump today? >> as i said before the congress over a year and a half ago, nicolle, the former president and his allies were, as of january 6th, 2021, a clear and present danger to american democracy. a year later, when i was asked, i think by michael smit of "the new york times," i said that today one year after january 6th that the former president and his allies were an even graver danger to american democracy than a year prior, and most recently i also say now, two and a half years thence, that the former president is a clear and present danger, an imminent danger to american democracy today. >> of all the american institutions sounding the alarm on what donald trump has done and could still do, few have been more clear about what another term could mean for the united states than our legal apparatus. lawyers, judges, scholars listen to what retired federal judge michael letic told our friend nicolle wallace. that threat to our democracy is clear. a new moment. legal scholars are forming the society for the rule of law institute from their op-ed in "the new york times," quote, we need an organization of conservative lawyers committed to the foundational constitutional principles we once all aeed upon. the primacy of american democracy, the sanctity of the constitution, e rule of law. the independence of the courts, the invol uability of the elections and mutual support with the solemn responsibility of enforcing the laws of the untate this new organization must step up, speak out, and defend these ideals. joining us now mike the leddic. molly is also with us. judge, thank you for taking the time to be with us. tell us a little bit more about this group. why you felt it was necessary. >> thank you for having me on this afternoon. as we said in that "new york times" essay this morning, american democracy, the constitution, the rule of law are the righteous causes of our time for all of the reasons that all of us know. lawyers are uniquely positioned and uniquely obligated to protect and defend the constitution and the rule of law as well as american democracy. lawyers, they are not alone in this, but lawyers take an oath to support and defend the constitution of the united states and the rule of law. those of us who have just formed now the new society for the rule of law feel that the legal profession as a whole, and especially the conservative lawyers across america, have not sufficiently stood up and defended the constitution, the rule of law, and especially america's democracy over the past three years since january 6th, 2021. and we believe that because of our obligation to support american democracy, that a new legal movement should be formed with a particular focus on defense of those three pillars, foundational pillars, of american society. >> let's talk just a little bit, judge luttig, about what that could look like. specifically, the commitment to working with those with whom you might otherwise disagree politically for the common good, the last paragraph of "the new york times" is this. those in the pro-democracyal community many progressives might disagree with our overall legal philosophy, we welcome them with open arms. we are at a point when commitment to fundamental classical liberal tenets of our republican form of gerent is far more important than partisan politics and pol party and even philosophical questions about the law. our country comes first and our country is in a constitutional emergency if not a constitutional crisis. we all must act accordingly, especially us lawyers. do you sense an open-ness to that kind of cooperation among your more progressive peers? >> i do. and i'm glad that you characterized them just now as our peers. we do not regard those of a different political or even idealogical persuasion as our adversaries. and we never have. but now there is a higher order of responsibility because of the higher order threat to our nation, and that our democracy is in peril. that's the higher order threat that calls for a focus by all of us lawyers regardless of political or idealogical persuasion to come to the awed of our struggling democracy. >> there was a line that i underlined, bolded in your post where you write, this is an indictment of the nation's legal profession. we often talk about the damage donald trump and trumpism has done to institutions, to our governing bodies. talk to me about the damage that you believe has been done to the judicial system and to the legal profession. >> well, as i said to nicolle the other day when i was on the show, the republicans, led by the former president, instigated a war on american democracy on january 6th, 2021, and now, today, three years later, we know that they are determined to prosecute that war to its catastrophic end. thus, the former president and his allies have continued to deny the 2020 presidential election for three years, maintaining that that election was stolen from the former president, notwithstanding that there is no evidence whatsoever of that, and that, indeed, president joe biden won that election fair and square. meanwhile, during those three years that effort led by the former president has laid waste to americans' confidence in their democracy and their elections, in their constitution, and in their rule of law. america will never recover from this assault on its democracy. hopefully, with time and in the not too distant future america will come to its senses and move on and beyond this tragic period in our history l but we will never recover as a nation from these past three years, nor will we ever be viewed in the same way by the world prior to january 6th. we were the beacon, if you will, of democracy around the world. no longer, i think, will that be the case. >> i want to bring in molly. here is the thing. the common thread is that it will take americans stepping up and saying that is not the future we want. tim miller talked about the former trump people now saying this guy shouldn't be president again. but not in an organized way. popping up here in one article, one tv hit, saying i did my part. no. it is going to have to be an ongoing sustained effort. this type of reimagining of institutions and systems in order to really make an impact and a dent? >> yeah, and i think there is a lot of anxiety places like the heritage foundation is not taking the high road and the federal society, these places are not disavowing -- i talked to one of the authors of this on the way over here and he was saying we need them to say who it's not okay to overthrow the government. and i think that's a really low bar, but i think that's where we are with this republican party and really important data point. >> just about the lowest it could go. judge, michael luttig, thank you for spending time with us here at "deadline: white house." molly, thank you. what will happen to the voting rights act in this country after an appeals court struck down a key enforcement tool. that conversation and what might be a big victory for democracy today in a key battleground state on the other side of the quick break. stay with us. ith us just an investor you're an owner. that means your priorities are ours too. our retirement tools and advice can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. hi, i'm jason. i've lost 228 pounds on golo. ♪ can help you leave a legacy for the ones you love. changing your habits is the only way that gets you to lose the weight. and golo is the plan that's going to help you do that. just take the first step, go to golo.com. the most gerrymandered state in the country might soon be a true democracy again. the wisconsin supreme court heard oral arguments on the state's legislati districts. the guardiarts that the wisconsin supreme court poised to strike down the current maps r the state legislature after three hours of oral argument. a decision that could end more than a decade of republican dominance and eliminate some of the most jer mander districts in the country. the impact to fixing wisconsin's maps cannot be overstated. it has the worst legislative maps in the country. it comes at a critical moment in the fight for voting rights. yesterday a federal appeals court ruling that only the federal government could bring lawsuits over election practices that discriminate basd on race, not private individuals or civil rights organizations. if that ruling is allowed to stand, it would be a devastating blow to the voting rights act. joining our conversation founder of democracy mark alies and basil sniekle, a democratic strategist and director. public policy program at hunter program. mark, let's start with wisconsin. your takeaway from today's oral arguments? >> so, look, this has been a very, very contentious issue in the state of wisconsin for some time. there has been a very conservative majority in the wisconsin supreme court as a result of an election that got a lot of coverage. you did coverage on that majority flipped. so that right now there are -- there is a 4-3 pro-democracy liberal majority on the state supreme court. it is very difficult to predict outcomes of cases based solely on the oral arguments. i would say that the people -- the plaintiffs arguing for new maps, new sliver naps in time for the next election seem to have the better of the argument on the merits and seem to have a majority of the justices on their side. >> let's talk about the stakes here, mark, in democracy doc your team writing about the wisconsin legislativma being reviewed notes the drafts of the maps that were ultimately adopted labeled bit theap drawers as assertive and aggressive and explicitly manipulated to entrench a republican advantage. just how brazen was this effort to take away democracy and what does it mean if the court does end up ruling to rectify it? >> yeah, so i think that there is some misconception out there in the general public that there is always been gerrymandering and both sides do it. there has always been some and that politicians look at a town and neighborhood and say i like those voters, i would like to represent them, but the kind of super aggressive data-driven computer-generated maximalist partisan jerry mandarining like we see? north carolina by the republican legislature there and that has been taken place in wisconsin is not like anything we have seen. both sides don't do that and historically that has not been done. the wisconsin legislative maps were simply immune from electoral outcomes. are what do i mean? regardless of what the will of the voters were, republican were going to keep a strong majority in both legislative chambers. if the court strikes these maps down, it would mean democracy in wisconsin, it would mean that voters have an opportunity to express their will and if they feel good with about democrats and want to elect democrats, democrats could control the legislature. if on the other hand they feel like democrats let them down and republicans better represent them, then republicans can represent the legislature. there would be a measure of genuine competition in a state that is honestly a 50/50 state, one senator is from the democratic party, one from the republican party, and presidential elections last time went for president biden before that for appreciate prophet muhammaduth. so this is a state that ought to be ipg swging in their maps the way they are not currently. >> ought to be swinging. this was an election, right, she ran on this question, basil, of democracy. she ran on gerrymandering. which a million political consultants like it's too esoteric, no one is going on the polls based on that. they did. i wonder as someone who watches elections and tries to transpose the elections of -- the lessons of one on to the other what you think other states can take from what happened in wisconsin. >> well, transposing one state's outcome to another, let's take new york, for example. >> please. >> because new york is back in court right now trying to argue for -- democrats are arguing for new lines. on a flip of what mark said, he is absolutely right, interestingly enough it was the republicans that argued that democrats, not the same thing. but they were making the argument that democrats drew these lines that were so dramatically unfair. unfortunately, they won that gruchlt we had some incredible chaos in the state in 2022's elections. to put this together, what's important is that wisconsin is a swing state. joe biden, democrats are going to be spending a lot of time and resources there. it's a state in the recent polls he was doing better than donald trump. similarly, new york not really a swing state. in fact, new york's only voted for a republican six times since the great depression. it seems that new york is in play because there are six seats here, at least four targeted but six seats that biden won represented by republicans and democrats think that they can get back. these are states that democrats -- >> in play congressional -- >> right. in play congressionally. i would love to see the democrats spend a lot of time and resources to both flip the house, but also particularly in the case of wisconsin, keep joe biden in office. >> mark, the new ruling on the voting rights act was supposed to be the big news. there was, of course, all of this action out of wisconsin. so i wanted to make sure we got to that. but let's talk about the impact on voting rights if this case were allowed to stand. >> yeah, so this is a cataclysmic ruling if this were allowed to stand and spread throughout the country. a single conservative panel on a conservative court in the 8th circuit ruled that only the federal government, only the department of justice can bring litigation to enforce section 2 of the voting rights act. right now the vast majority of litigation that is brought to enforce section 2 of the voting rights agent is brought by private plaintiffs, civil rights organizations, brought by groups of individual voters. my law firm brought the case in alabama, in lasagna, in georgia that overturned those maps as voting rights act violations. those victories could in the exist if this 8th circuit ruling was extended. now, here is the good news. the good news is right now this is only the ruling in the 8th circuit, which covers arkansas, iowa, minnesota, missouri, nebraska, north dakota and south dakota. it is not the rule elsewhere. but look for the supreme court to take this case up and it will be a very big case. in the last 40 years, there have been 182 successful section 2 cases. only 15 of those 182 brought only by the department of justice. think about what that would mean for voting rights in america. >> final word? >> voting rights act was part of of a package of bills, lbj's great society to make sure there were equity and access for especially african americans. since brown versus board of ed litigate to keep those reforms from being enact the. we saw over time slowly but surely chipping away at these reforms. the burden on black families and black households and civil rights organizations steep to take what the state wasn't doing and going to the federal government. now they seem to have at least with this ruling no rights and no ability to do that. it is really, really scary because that means that you're counting on the federal government to actually do this and we're talking about in your -- earlier segments donald trump getting back into office. when is that going to happen? that means for another generation potentially we could have no redress at the federal government for black and brown voters to be able to exercise their rights. >> cataclysmic. thank you so much. good to see you. thanks for spending time with us. when we return and we are so excited for this, nicolle will be joining with a big announcement. so stick around for that after a very short break. so stick around for that after a very short break ♪♪ if you're on medicare, remember, the annual enrollment period is here. the time to choose your coverage begins october 15th and ends december 7th. so call unitedhealthcare and see how you can get more of what matters, with our broad range of plans including an aarp medicare advantage plan from unitedhealthcare. it can combine your hospital and doctor coverage with part d prescription drug coverage, and more, all in one simple plan. these plans are made to support your whole health with $0 annual physical exams, $0 lab tests and $0 preventive care like mammograms and colonoscopies. and you'll get more for your medicare dollar with $0 copays on most covered dental services a $0 eye exam and an allowance for eyewear plus $0 copays on hundreds of prescriptions, at the pharmacy or by mail. now's the time to look at unitedhealthcare's variety of plans. so give us a call to learn more about coverage options in your area. with our right plan promise, you have our commitment to helping you find the right plan for your needs. and to help make life with medicare simpler, you'll get the all-in-one member ucard. only from unitedhealthcare, the ucard is your unitedhealthcare member id and much more. show your ucard when you visit your primary care provider, dentist or eye doctor, or fill a prescription at the pharmacy. and use it to access medicare advantage's largest national network of providers. you can count on unitedhealthcare to help you get the care you need, when you need it. enrollment ends december 7th. now's the time to learn more about america's most chosen medicare advantage plans and how they can open doors to a simpler healthcare experience with the all-in-one ucard. call unitedhealthcare today about the only medicare advantage plans with the aarp name and get more of what matters to you. (music ends) (♪ music ♪) the walking tree is said to change its entire location in pursuit of sunlight (♪ ♪) where could reinvention take your business? accenture. let there be change. (carolers ♪ iphone 15 pro, your husband deserves it! ♪ (mom) carolers? to tell me you want a new iphone? a better plan is verizon. (vo) black friday starts now. turn any iphone in any condition into a new iphone 15 pro with titanium and ipad and apple watch se - all on us. only on verizon. we have some very exciting news about the dead lin white house correspondents' dinner family to share with you today. viewers of the program have probably noticed that nicolle has been missing from this chair the past week. but she is with us now. >> hi, nicolle. >> i have not looked at my phone in a week and amazed. i understand why the truth was ruled out by so many people that mike and i had a baby. her name is isabella sloan smith. and mike and liam and i are smitten with her. our dogs are still rendering judgment. but we were able to keep it secret, obviously, because i wasn't pregnant, but i never meant to keep it secret from our beloved viewers. i am so happy to share our happy news today. >> talk to me about being a mom for the second time. how exciting! >> well, there are pros and cons to being a mom at 51. you are tired. i was up all night last night and i was, like, wow, yeah, this is what 3:45 a.m. looks like. i don't see it a lot anymore. but it's a blessing to be, you know, focused again on what has always grounded me, and that's my beautiful family, my son liam is 11 and was in the hospital and scooped her up in his arms and was calmer than we were at the beginning. just has a knack for the sway and the, you know, all the things that you do no matter where you are when you have a baby. i found myself at the bank today swaying without izzy in my arms. all those things. but i, you know, this show is my other family, and i would never leave. i certainly would never leave in a moment this dire. i have watched your whole program today. you were exquisite in that chair. i am so lucky and grateful that you are there while i take a couple of months to hang out with izzy. >> you've got to send me a photo of the dogs and baby watching "deadline whitehouse." >> we were all there for the whole two hours. they lay one head on her. they would like to lick her whole face. we saw on day four of life, that probably wasn't a great idea. they are there. they are watching you. they are watching her. they want to know when she goes back to wherever she came from. so i don't know that the dogs understand she is here to stay. but we are so glad she is. we love her so much. >> she is so beautiful. is she eating? is she sleeping? are you eating? are you sleeping? she eats so m have all the new mom insecurities, like, is this too much? should i take it away? she sleeps when she wants to sleep, which isn't at night yet. i know there's a book on that that we're going to have to crack at some point. but she's perfect. we're happy to not to let her do all that. >> we're all looking forward thanksgiving and so much to be thankful for. tell us how you're planning to celebrate. >> oh, when is that? >> do you know which day it is? do you know where you are? >> no, we are living one hour at a time. we are -- we're sort of hunkered down. there's so much in the beginning. she had her first visit to the pediatrician today. she did better than dad and i. we sort of left feeling like we needed a drink. but no, we'll have a small family thanksgiving and maybe catch the parade. we live close to the parade route, so maybe we'll show her the thanksgiving day parade. if we cop out, we'll just watch it on tv. >> isabella sloan schmidt, we have been waiting for and we have been keeping the secret for a long time, so i'm so happy to finally say congratulations, nicolle, congratulations, mike, congratulations, liam, welcome to the world, and welcome to the family. nicolle. one more time, can you assure the viewers you're coming back? >> i'm so distraught anyone was distraught. i have three families, the family in my house that sees me in my sweat pant glory, my team who also sees me in my fwloir, and then i have you. i think this happened to me during the pandemic -- i viewed the viewer as my family and as long as they'll have me i would never, ever, ever leave. >> we're all so happy for you, so happy for the family. nicolle, i'm going to see you soon. quick break for us. take a look at that little face. we'll be right back. l be right . sleep more deeply. and wake up rejuvenated. purple mattresses exclusive gel flex grid draws away heat relieves pressure and instantly adapts. sleep better. live purple. right now save up to $900 off mattress sets during purple's black friday sale. visit purple.com or a store near you today. the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico, from alaska to alabama. but right now, people like you are losing their freedoms. some in power are suppressing voting rights. banning our kids books from libraries and attacking our right to make private health care decisions. we must act now to defend these freedoms and protect our democracy. and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union, and we're asking you to join us in protecting our democracy at the national level and in communities like yours. call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. your gift of just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day will help ensure that together we can continue to fight for the freedoms of all americans, no matter your zip code. if you also believe in the right to vote, the right to free speech, the right to learn, the right to bodily autonomy. please join us now. these are your fundamental rights that people are playing with. and so you need to get involved, because if you don't, then someone else is going to decide whether or not you get to choose what happens to your own body. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty for just $19 a month. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're part of a movement to protect the rights of all people. we can't make systemic change in the way that we want to doing it by ourselves. we have to work together because we the people, means all of us. from sea to shining sea. so please call or go online to myaclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. with cirkul, your water is deliciously flavored at the turn of a dial, with zero sugar and zero calories. and cirkul has over 40 flavors, so your water can be as unique as you are. try cirkul. your water, your way. now with even more flavors. available at walmart or drinkcirkul.com. finally for us, in election news you might not have heard about. monroe, north carolina, decided the mayoral race on friday by coin flip. both candidates received exactly 970 vos. officials turned to a state law that says ties of under 5,000 votes will be decided by a, quote, method of random selection. so a silver dollar was found and a toss was made. after what candidate burns called the longest roll ever, the coin landed on tails, meaning burns would be the mayor the next two years. for the rest of us, an important reminder that every vote matters. another break for us. we'll be right back. tters. another break for us we'll be right back. ve some reay encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. all of these plans include a healthy options allowance, a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. other benefits on these plans include free rides to and from your medical appointments. and our large networks of doctors, hospitals and pharmacies. so, call the number on your screen now and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. humana. a more human way to healthcare. ♪ you were always so dedicated... ♪ we worked hard to build up the shop, save for college and our retirement. but we got there, thanks to our advisor and vanguard. now i see who all that hard work was for... it was always for you. seeing you carry on our legacy— i'm so proud. at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. setting up the future for the ones you love. that's the value of ownership. thank you for spending part of this tuesday with us and for the ability to share our exciting and big news. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, alicia, you the greatest if not best news of the day if not many days around here of nicolle being a new mother. >> do you know how