Transcripts For CSPAN2 House Hearing On Paycheck Protection Program 20240712

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And before we get started, i wanted to offer a warm welcome to our newest member, from maryland. Husbandsents presented marylands Congressional District for five from 1997 to 1996, when he took on the Critical Role of [indiscernible] being a member of the Small Business committee is nothing new, as he previously sat on the committee and served as the chair of the subcommittee on minority enterprise, finance, and urban development. I look forward to his work to elevate the needs of Small Businesses. We are all pleased to have you join us. The outbreak of covid19 has led to an unprecedented Public Health crisis. Steps totook swift address both, but today, we are focusing on the Paycheck Protection Program created by the cares act. The Paycheck Protection Program is a subprogram of the Loan Guarantee program, and began 50 billion of guaranteed loans designed to meet payroll costs and other business expenses. The goal of the program is to save Small Business jobs as quickly as possible. The program has guaranteed over 50 times as many loans as it did in the entire 2019 fiscal year. All of this in just a few short weeks. We appreciate all the hard work by everyone at the fda, and are equally grateful to the Lending Partners who participated in ppp, for helping Small Businesses stay afloat during this uncertain time. However, given the size and , this was bound to be lessthanperfect. As movers of the Small Business committee, we are tasked with programs and the first round of Paycheck Protection Programs exposed some areas. Too many mom and pop shops were forced to sit on the sidelines as the programs were first rolled out as larger businesses received those loans. All they were left with was a hope that congress would add more money to the program. On april 24, the paycheck protection enhancement act was signed into law come up with more Protection Program funding. Importantly, the additional funding included a set of 60 million for small banks and other unions, as well as micro loan intermediaries. We intend a greater portion of dpp funds to go to the underserved is this community who struggle to access funding. This second round of funding has not drawn down as fast as the cares, in part i suspect because inthe lack of clear guidance the first several weeks of the program. Forced us to act yet again. On june 5, the Paycheck Protection Program expansion act was signed into law. The act extended the covered areas to use the loan from eight untilto 24 weeks, up december 31. Toalso permitted borrowers spend a greater portion of their loans on nonpayroll costs and remain eligible for forgiveness. Aat makes todays forum timely one, as we will be able to hear from stakeholders about what worked with the program, what has not worked, and how congress can keep optimizing the local economies slowly begin to reopen. There were also a number of regulatory decisions made by the treasury in the early weeks of the program may have limited loans to some perspective or worse. Prospective borrowers. The agencies added a test of the program and established a move that read the bar work to spend 35 on payroll costs in order to be eligible for full forgiveness. This rule greatly restricted the abilities of many different kinds of Small Businesses to spend their loan funds as needed, and made the ppp product much less appealing for borrowers. Program enters the forgiveness phase, we must analyze the issues borrowers and lenders are currently facing. The primary concern we have is for the complex forgiveness application, which according to experts reads more like a text document than a loan application. Feature of the program applying for it should be as easy as possible. We have also heard that minorityowned Small Businesses, micro businesses, and sole proprietors continue to struggle with accessing ppp loans, despite about 130 billion remaining in the program amount. And just last week, secretary mnuchin testified before our Senate Counterparts that treasury will not be publishing details on information for ppp, rubbing congress of the data we need to evaluate the program. Hearingk forward to from our distinguished panelists today about how congress can keep improving the Paycheck Protection Program, and whether congress should consider further fixes before the second round of ppp funding expires or the program closes on june 30. Again, i want to thank the panelists were joining us here today, and i now yield to the king member, mr. Sherman, mr. Schneider, for his opening statements. Thank you for holding the hearing today. I was elected in 1994. He left in 1996. I had the honor and pleasure of serving one term with them. As you indicated, he is former chair, and i believe his portrait is on our wall in the committee room, so we want to welcome him back to the committee. Im sure he will make a great contribution to Small Businesses again all over the country. On a different note, i must once again register my concern on behalf of our side of the aisle about the continuing conducting of Committee Meetings by virtual format. The house has important work that needs to be completed, yet we are forced to have these hearings virtually, with states and localities opening up. It is a concern that the house of representatives remains a virtual entity. But i certainly do not hold the chair responsible for this. It is obviously above her paygrade. I do believe the speaker in the democratic leadership should make sure that congress sits in session, because we have a lot of work to do. Im actually in washington right center,the visitor because that is where we are holding a hearing relative to , andeorge floyd killing congresss response to that there is obviously a number of legislations. The senate has legislation. Theirministration offered suggestions as to how we move forward. An executive order yesterday. So we are all discussing this. So i am here in washington. But unfortunately, other than that, the other committees are not in session, and we ought to be. Relative to todays hearing, the Paycheck Protection Program application portal opened up on april 3, so it has not been that long. In just two months, the sba approved and dispersed more than 4. 5 million loans, totaling over half 1 trillion. It has been a truly herculean effort by the sba, which is a relatively small government agency, which is really working extremely hard, and it is really incredible how much they have done and been able to do. According to the may employment report released by the bureau of labor statistics, nonfarm Payroll Employment rose by 2. 5 million, so that is good news. And the Unemployment Rate declined to 13. 3 . It is good news that it went down. It is unfortunate that it is still that high. Obviously have a lot of work to do to get that Unemployment Rate down and get the American Economy moving again. There is a long way to go in this recovery. It appears that the ppp is having major impact and saving Many American jobs. I have seen the enormous impact of these loans in my district back in southwestern ohio, where i visited nearly two dozen businesses now that have utilized the ppp loans. Restaurants and learning centers and manufacturers and medical practices, and many others. For example, on may 8, i had the honor and pleasure of visiting an Animal Hospital in lebanon, ohio, and i astley the owner and head veterinarian if he would share his experience with the program with us, and he is going to be one of our witnesses here today. We certainly welcome him. I will be introducing him shortly. We know the program has not been perfect, especially early on. Congress made adjustments, including the Paycheck Program enhancement act and the flex ability act. These adjustments include expanded loan forgiveness from , at theeks to 24 weeks option of the Small Business and what they determine is in their best interest. They now have the option of picking one or the other. That is going to help a lot of people. Modifying the loan amount that must be spent on payroll costs to 6040. From 7525 i heard from a lot of folks that is going to help a lot, and other things we did. The ppp program is a result of tireless work between congress and the administration. We hope to achieve a delicate balance between flexibility for lenders and loan recipients, protecting the integrity of the programs mission, and conducting needed oversight. Transparency continues to be a hallmark of all government programs. We must ensure transparency without compromising confidential information and personal information. I think that is very important. Additionally, as Small Businesses move closer to the end of their covered period, it will be important for congress to examine how forgiveness is treated. Todays discussion will add value to this element of ppp. We are all committed to making sure this program has a maximum impact for Small Businesses across the country. I want to thank all the Witnesses Today, and those who have provided feedback to me and other members of congress, especially those on this committee, about how the ppp program has worked with them. Their impact will have an Immediate Impact on the program and the nations economic recovery. Again, madam chair, i want to thank you for holding the hearing, and i yield. You, mr. Zquez thank chabot. Each witness will have five minutes to provide a statement, and it many member will have five minutes for students. Please ensure that your microphone is on and you begin speaking, and that you return to mute when finished. With that, i would like to thank our businesses for taking time out of our big of their busy schedules to join us. Our first witness is the chef and proprietor of a farm to table restaurant in portland, maine. After spending years in kitchens across the world, she opened this restaurant in 2000 with the help of an sba loan. Has partnered to open to additional locations, and has been recognized for excellence by numerous industry publications. However, the outbreak of covid19 has left her restaurant in jeopardy, and she took out a ppp loan with the hope that it will save her business. Chef, thank you for joining us today. This is mr. Edward sosa. He is the Senior Vice President of sba lending at an independent Community Bank in the austin, texas area with about 5 billion in assets. Preferredis a seven a lender, due to years of experience with the program. His insight will therefore be quick committee as we evaluate implementation of the ppp. Mr. Sosa, thank you for joining us today. Is ashleywitness curry, director of advocacy and senior counsel at the center for responsible lending. It is a research and Advocacy Organization dedicated to a few Financial Services market that provides meaningful opportunities for Community Asset building and economic security. Thank you for joining us today. Finally, i would like to turn it over to the Ranking Member, mr. Introduce our, to next witness. Chabot this is rich coleman, the owner of four pars the owner of an Animal Hospital. He graduated from the Ohio State University college of veterinary medicine in 2002. In december 2006, he took over a veterinary clement, change the name to forepaws the hospital, built a new facility in 2012, and began a remodel in march of 2019, so just last year, to allow for more growth and opportunities for his clientele. Obviously, none of us anticipated at that time what was coming down the pike, so im sure it will be interesting to hear how that has affected him. Dr. Rich is a dedicated Community Servant and response to many programs in his county. His wife is a teacher at lebanon city schools, and when i visited, i had an opportunity to speak with her about what was going on in the School System at that time. Also, it was delightful to meet his daughters, and their two cats and black labs, although i dont think i met all of those that day. My staff and i visited forepaws Animal Hospital last month to see how they have benefited from the ppp, as have many other businesses in our Community Area i want to thank you, dr. , for showing us your great Animal Care Facility and i look forward to your testimony as i do all the other witnesses. I yield back rep. Velazquez thank you, and thank you over being here. I would now like to begin by recognizing ms. Kelly for five minutes. Thank you. Good afternoon. I would like to thank the Ranking Member and all the members of this committee for the opportunity to represent the concerns of the hospitality industry. Im chef melissa kelly, the owner of a restaurant in maine. Im in my kitchen, alone. In normal times, this kitchen would be prepared with my staff and we would be preparing for dinner service. The pandemic has changed all of that. Today, i would like to share my thoughts and concerns. For people i work with, the industry at large, and the active mess of the ppp loans. I am a chef. I consider that my calling. The reason i do what i do is to help people eat delicious, healthy food, they can nourish and enjoy. I also believe the health of this planet is a possibility. I own and operate a small farm and a restaurant, and this is where i bring my hope to life. We operate on a seasonal calendar, open for nine months, most for three. This april was the beginning of my 21st season. Through hard work and dedication, the business has grown steadily over the years. I employ a team of 50 farmers, managers, cooks, dishwashers, servers, and other staff. When the governor of maine wisely put our state on lock was myy first word people. I had enough money in reserve to see them through a couple of s, but i did not know how long it would be before we got to work. I did not want to lay them off. The team is the reason we do what we do. I had won an award as the best chef in maine twice, and my team is a big part of the reason why. My restaurant feeds 165 people inside. Meanwhile, we serve over 32,000 meals a season. My staff of 50 seven average earning of 26 on our. Our revenue is earned mostly between july and october. Im here today not only representing myself, but also as a spokesperson for the Restaurant Industry in general. I operate in maine, a state that is dependent on revenue from seasonal tourists. I and my fellow restauranteurs are not going to make it through this. They are not going to survive operations due to covid19. Regardless of openings in the industry, patients may still have hesitance or face financial stresses in their homes which will take us time to recover. It worries us all. When the ppp was first offered, i thought long and hard about applying. Period meantbility iwas forced to use up period was not not in operation. My allowed count was 20 or when normally in season i have 50 fulltime employees. It was also uncertain which expenses could be covered. There have been many added operating costs directly at tribbett it to covid19 ppe, staff training, building an outdoor area. I closed on my ppp for 180,000 dollars on may 17. At the time of the closing, i was supposed to send all the money. Given the eight week timeframe, i was extremely concerned about being able to incur enough allowable costs for the loans to be forgiven. For most of the period of the loan, the restaurant has been closed to dining operations by state mandate we used the loan funds to bring back staff and to begin to offer take out. Revenue on take out been less than 20 what we would normally get from normal operations. On may 13, the sba issued a new ruling to allow businesses to use an alternative period to calculate maximum loan amounts. By this isolation, i was eligible to up to 530,000, but would have only until june 30 two utilize the funds. At that time, the restaurant was still posed to dine in by state order. It would have been a poor decision to obtain additional funds that almost certainly would not have been forgiven. The recent passage of the Paycheck Protection Program flex ability act is a positive step in the right direction to provide necessary assistance to businesses that are struggling during this pandemic. I was advised to increase my loan to 400,000 as we continue to face reduced revenue. Unfortunately, i was soon notified that because my local bank had filed the sba form 1502 on may 18, the loan could not be increased due to sba rules. [indiscernible] i am recommending changes to the sba rules regarding loan submission to allow for an increase for eligible businesses. Has velazquez your time expired. You can expand during an and answer period. We recognize mr. Sosa. Thank you. Sosa thank you for inviting me. As a former migrant farmer who has spent the last 25 years as an sba lender, i am especially honored to be here. I am a Senior Vice President of Commerce National bank in austin, texas, where i help to ppp,ee participation in making approximately 3500 loans million,over 477 supporting over 57,000 employees. I am grateful for congresss quick action to address the problem of unemployed americans, and understand why congress and the agencies felt pressure to produce statutes and guidance as fast as possible, and to have lenders implement the program immediately. But they are now paying the price for the speed, and they need to look for middle ground that balances speed with price. Let me explain. Includes rulesce and faqs, which have frequently changed. Im an experienced lender, but never fully understood how to make a ppp loan from beginning to end. No one does. Seven weeksguidance into the program, after millions of signed contracts, knowing all the terms and conditions, we still dont know how decisions will be made. We need clear, complete guidance. Next, the Credit Congress allowed loans up to 10 million. Brought incised standards relaxed affiliation rules and eliminated the credit test. Most smallcongress, businesses will certify to the necessity of the loan. The lord never said the business first needed to use available capital and need remains undefined. But as the media begins highlighting negative stories, attitudes shifted. Ifrs now require that bauer selfassessed need basically eliminated credit elsewhere test. I watched my customers fearfully repay needed loans of my banks 447 million in loans, 31 million were repaid because of contradictory guidance and perceived threats. The saddest part is the majority of the loans repaid were the smallest, as low as 1400. Imagine a powers fear when the government says it must return loan funds or face serious consequences. The federal government says were here in hell, and then changed its mind here to help, and then changed its mind on who it is to help. Requires agencies to acknowledge the waiver, demand faqs that demand the statute. Next, forgiveness issues. Lenders still dont know how or when to submit their forgiveness applications. And they still dont know how to appeal adverse decisions. What guidance we do have isnt clear, and places a tremendous burden on them, especially those with smaller loans. We need a simplified forgiveness process. I strongly recommend that congress provides statutory direction to create automatic forgiveness for buyers with loans of 150,000 or less. Next, lender liability. Aw said lenders can rely on buyers documentation, but agencies confuse this mandate. One says we can rely on certification. But recently, lenders must review calculations and documentation. If forgiveness applications are not appropriately documented, they can be denied. Lenders are increasingly worried about participating when the rules are consul he changing. Should we be surprised our constantly changing constantly changing. Should we be surprised . Congress requires promptly paid lender processing fees, but only now are we starting to get paid, just learning agencies refuse to pay fees for loans if there is an afterthefact determination of ineligibility based on new interpretations. That is unfair and unprincipled. Despite these issues, here is why we chose to participate. We provided a loan to a husband and wife owned bakery. Not only were they able to keep their 24 employees excuse me, your time expired, so you will be able to expand during the question and answer period. Thank you. Youre now recognized for five minutes. Thank you. Good afternoon, chairwoman velasquez, ranking never travis, and members Ranking Member travis, and Ranking Member chavez, and members of the community. We are a nonprofit working to advance economic opportunity. Its an affiliate of selfhelp, one of the nations Largest Development institutions. A longtime Small Business lender, we have focused on helping underserved applicants access the Paycheck Protection Program. The ppp is one of the largest taxpayerfunded crisis relief programs in our nations history. The programs intention is good and built on an important premise. Provide a lifeboat so their employees can stay afloat during this pandemic. But the execution and rollout of the ppp fell short, creating a barrier for Small Business owners of color to act as they need. Thats what i hope to underscore for you today. Since the start of the crisis, Business Owners of color have been unfairly hardhit. Black and latino owned andnesses declined by 31 32 , respectively. Asian american Business Owners dropped 26 . By comparison, active white Business Owners declined 17 . These are from the same community that with the most adversely affected by the great recession. Unfortunately, theyre the ones most likely to be underserved by the ppp. This program disadvantages the businesses. Businesses on by people of color have fewer businesses than people white people. Black is is is and 91 of latino businesses, the owner is the current only current employee, as opposed to white businesses. These are least likely to be served by ppp. They are less likely than white owners to have a relationship with a commercial lender. This puts them at a sharp disadvantage, especially during the first come, first serve opening round of ppp. Businesses of color have lacked access to credit, generally. Steepnt study found reduction in lending to black businesses from 2008 to 2018. In 2018 and 2019, only 5 of loans were made to black owned businesses, and only 9 to latino owned businesses. Business owners of color are more likely than white Business Owners to feel discouraged from seeking loans. Some institutions are working to increase ppp access, but have been hundred by loan volume threshold and other difficult requirements. 11 page the sbas application for loan forgiveness, which largely tracks documentation under care. Its so complex and cumbersome, businesses too small to afford an accountant or lawyer will find it difficult to complete, turning a grant into longterm debt. This burden too will fall on businesses of color. While the easy form release is an improvement, it still requires extensive documentation. Last month, the sba Inspector General reported despite a requirement in the cares act, sba and the Treasury Department failed to issue guidance to lenders to ensure they prioritize underserved markets, including rural, minority, and womenowned businesses. As of today, we are yet to see any guidance. They also noted the sba did not collect standard Demographic Data on his ppp form. This failure made it unlikely the sba could determine whether funds reached underserved markets. Despite the failure to collect and release data, there ample evidence ppp has not served as this is of color. My written testimony provides more detail, along with recommendations to address the problem and fully support this as owners of color going forward. As we know, recent people led protest across our country decried the pain of communities long denied equal access to the most basic aspects of americas promise of justice and equal opportunity. These communities continue to suffer the consequences of federal policy decisions that needlessly and unjustly make Economic Activities harder to access. Right now, under your watch, the public is looking to address inequality and they deserve a response. I urge you to seize this moment. Cro and other organizations are ready to help you. Its already too late for Small Businesses and those that remain cant wait any longer. The ppp is set to expire in two weeks if it is not set to reform businesses, many will never recover. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. Thank you. We now recognize mr. Coleman for five minutes. Welcome. Thank you very much. Honorable congresswomen and congressman, i am honored to be here at thank you for allowing me to come before you today as a representative for Small Businesses. My wife and i purchased a practice from another veterinarian and made our own in 2007. At the time of the purchase, it was a single doctor practice. We now have expanded to become a five doctor practice with 34 employees. In 2012, we moved from a strip mall to our own 5400 squarefoot elting in part building and part of the lebanon business quarter. Weve seen amazing growth from a client standpoint, as well as revenue standpoint. Over the past few years, we have been able to give raises, purchase agreement, and hire more staff numbers. In march, that changed. Ohio was one of the earliest to shut down. Fortunately, we were deemed an essential business and was still able to operate with severe restrictions. Because of these, we went from Growth Numbers to down 30 or more. We were fearful that at any time, we would have to shut down the hospital if one of the Staff Members fell ill from coronavirus. We first heard about the ppp loans on the news. I reached out to our local bank. I stayed in contact and asked for any information they were getting as far as loan application. I filled out a sample application, had the numbers confirmed, and tried to get any documentation that was needed for when the loans would be approved by congress, the sba, and president. Once they let me know it was ready, i submitted them the next day at the bank kept me in the loop where we stood in the application process and the approval process occurred. We cited documents and within the week, our ppp was funded. I cannot say enough about how congress got such a huge undertaking done so quickly. It was exactly what our business needed to make up shortfall revenues and keep our employees. We did not lay off any staff and everyone was able to keep their hours, especially if they were able to come to work. Few Staff Members had to stay home due to unknown nature in the early stages. We asked anyone with fever or cough to stay home, but no one tested positive for covid19 and everyone was able to return to work. The only concern we had with the loan process was the documents we signed did not have linkage in them to discuss loan forgiveness language in them to discuss loan forgiveness. I looked at the loan as a lifeboat that my business needed and to provide for my staff and my family. If the loan was forgiven, it would be a godsend. If the loan was not, i at least had a government loan with a reasonable term to help me get through this time. The loan was funded during the first stage. We received 206,000. During the first phase, the average loan was 206 thousand dollars. It was the most average business in the united states. Our eight week loan period ended june 17, today. We elected to extend what he for weeks as allowed by the new provisions two weeks ago. We opened an account only to be used for the ppp loan fund. That way, there was complete transparency with every dollar used. Business has rebounded and we are digging out. We are still not practicing veterinary medicine the way we have the last 18 years, but we are during calls with clients in the hospital and only pets coming in. And mynew Business Model staff has been amazing in reinventing ourselves. Getting thank them for all our patients and clients through these tough times. In conclusion, i cannot think congress enough for providing the funds that all Small Businesses in the u. S. Needed to survive this time of uncertainty. It could not have gone any smoother. Congress is known for doing things at glacial speeds and i was amazed at how quickly this came together. It was amazing at what an accomplishment can happen when we all Work Together. I would like to thank our local Community Bank for making the process as easy as possible under the circumstances. My accountant for helping me navigate the application process. Thank you for having me and allowing me to tell my story. Because of partisan ash bipartisan efforts of congress, we were able to go home every night knowing bipartisan efforts of congress, we were able to go home every night knowing thank you. I will recognize myself for five minutes. Week,arrington, last secretary mnuchin said loan data will be published. As we both know, this is a contradiction with conventional 7a practices, under which individual loan data is publicly accessible on the sba website. Can you expound on the issue of ppe loans data recording and how will we see the event ability of congress and the public to track the demographic breakdown of ppp access . Absolutely. Thank you. Its definitely a big issue, apart from everything spe has done previously. The demographic information is so important to know where these funds are going in which committees are being served. We have heard about all of the communities, the businesses owned by people of color who are struggling and have not had access to these programs, who have gone to institutions and been denied or never heard anything about their applications. And they are struggling. Without this information from the sba, we cannot hold the sba accountable for the 606 2 billion taxpayer investment. Thank you. Mr. Sosa, both of the lending communities have similar concerns with data reporting. The regular 7a program, you are correct. As far as i know, all of the information there is public information. There might be some consideration as to some proprietary information on the ppp loan, but i dont want to get into any kind of political thing here because im not a politician. Publicly available information or oversight if somebody is not playing by the answer for need to that lack of rules. Thank you. Ms. Kelly, how many of your employees have you been able to retain, and do you think you asl be able to keep rehiring your local economy slowly begins to reopen . Ive been able to retain 16 employees at this moment. We have not opened the restaurant for Indoor Dining as of yet. Like i stated earlier, i am building an outdoor area because the state of maine allows 50 guests inside and 50 outside. I intend to open inside slowly soon, with caution, and as soon as we get the outside area open, i will come back right away. Surveys havegton, shown covid19 pandemic has disproportionately affected minority businesses and so proprietors. In your view, what more needs to be done to ensure ppp and other Small Business programs are assisting the Small Businesses . Need to ensure that the remaining funds and the ppp program are getting to Small Businesses who have not yet been served. Theres over 100 billion left thats set to expire. The Program Needs to be extended, but also reformed, providing fees set aside. All of these things will ensure funding gets to the Small Businesses and the businesses of people of color who have yet to be served by this program. So, at minimum, we should expect the ministration to provide data as to the demographics administration to provide data as to the demographics, similar to what lender has to provide when they provide loans. That is the only way to determine whether or not the moment of Small Businesses have been able to access the system that they need. Should we consider [indiscernible] for the new loan amount . Absolutely. The forgiveness clark application and process as laid out is incredibly burdensome for Small Businesses. We advocate for streamlined loan forgiveness for loans under 100,000. This will disproportionately serve Small Businesses. They will have 13 or fewer employees, the businesses we really want to survive and make it through this crisis. Thank you, ms. Harrington. My time has now expired. The Ranking Member, mr. Chavez s next, i recognize for five minutes. Dr. Coleman, ill begin with you. Theimated it might expense you estimated it might take to get the ppe and loan application process. The key was Small Businesses, we are not fortune 500 companies. We dont have a council and staff. A caterer is going to make 400 sandwiches and go do business. A mechanic may go and change out, flirt and go do their business work change out a muffler and go do their business work. Sometimes is a detriment of my family time. Have tohere is we outsource all of those things. So streamlining for these Small Businesses would be great and it sounds like the sba started that today. I have this 11 page document right here from what it was before, and i showed it to my wife last night. And it was, it was like a tax form. Im not going to lie to you. I missed a few of the words in there. I didnt know what they meant. I was concerned it would be a massive undertaking. And i was considering going to accountant and doing having them do the work for me. Ill go to mr. Sosa next. Considering the piecemeal issuing of guidance and faqs, frequently asked questions, ifrs, inner interim financial rules with some form of comprehensive forum guide have been more or would it be more helpful to lenders and recipients, in your opinion . Mr. Sosa . I think youre muted. Think that would be incredibly helpful. We are a ppp letter. Under our ownership group. Havender that program, we Standard Operating Procedures that give us guidelines for that. Opinion, youmy would find that you would have lenders participating in greater numbers and borrowers, particularly, less concerned and less scared by having definite guidelines of what rules they can follow, not only for the application, but particularly for the forgiveness process. That is an onerous process. Even under the simplest applications issued this as far as documentations are concerned. Standard automatic forgiveness at 150,000 would be called for. Thank you very much. Ms. Kelly, over to you next. Are there issues you think congress should address, considering policies for longterm economic recovery as were going to be working towards . I want to stress the need to revise and amend the ppp, like maybe call it a ppp 2. 0, to provide Additional Findings for businesses in the weeks and months ahead as we are still dealing with the impact of the virus. Im trying to give you a brief description about being a Small Business owner in maine, and im very grateful to the committee for all the work you have done and continue to do, but i want you to think about restaurants in a different way after 30 years being in the business. Our industry is in a crisis. Without additional support, well lose the in sport and sector important sector in the Dino Community dine out community. All the local businesses we support, we are in a crisis. I have about one more question. I have a lot of them. Ms. Harrington, over to you now. As Congress Examines the approximately 130 billion we still have remaining in ppp program, where should be concentrate our efforts, in your opinion, to produce the most impacts for Small Businesses . They should concentrate on ensuring these bonds get to really Small Businesses with 10 or fewer employees, that they are working with lenders who traditionally serve underserved businesses, like csis and nds. The first step is entering those one under 30 billion can get to the committee. Its great to hear it has those 130 billion can get to the communities it serves. It speaks for themselves that changes need to be made to this program. Thank you very much. My time has expired, so i yelled back. I yield back. Thank you. Now i recognize the gentleman from maine for five minutes. Just setting my clock. Any questions. I need questions. There we go. So, i appreciate your sharing your experience from the lender perspective and the challenges of ppp. Ive heard similar concerns from borrowers about the lack of clarity, how that complicated their decisionmaking. People areore feeling like they have information to come forward. [indiscernible] maine, and borrowers in dealing with the forgiveness , set up for the Small Business owners in particular. You talked a little bit about the [indiscernible] i wanted to ask you if you knew any statistics, but if the sba were to follow your advice and grant automatic forgiveness worth 150,000 or less, roughly what proportion of your ppp clients do you think would benefit from that change . At congress National Bank, 83 of our loans were below 150,000. Have3 of those borrowers borrowers would automatically be forgiven. On a national basis, 86 of the Business Loans would be forgiven. That is somewhat significant especially when you consider oft only represents 86 number of loans. That only represents approximately 27 of the dollars. So theres still robust oversight availability on the remaining dollars as the bulk of these Small Businesses, those guys with the boot on the ground , 10 employees or less, would be forgiven. Yes, and i appreciate you putting out the 10 employees or less. How might you estimate the number of hours per client that might be saved in regards to how they spend their time and their focus . Thats a tough question. Go backez, if you just and you use the four hours sba humbly submith i is very low, and then multiply that out, how many loans . I know theres 3 million loans just below 50,000. Thats a lot of work around the country. Thats a lot. Yes, sir. Thank you very much. Ive got a minute and a half left. Ms. Kelly, glad to have you joining us. People love your business in maine. I talked to a lot of businesses that share some of the same challenges you share. As you think again about the next six to 12 months, some of the unique challenges you see lying ahead, talk more about what you need from congress and government to help you take the next step toward recovery. Ok, yeah, for me, a lot of the next six months ahead are very unknown. Actually, were approaching july, which i would have my whole team being trained and ready for the busiest peak of my season, july through october. Ive lost all of my business in weddings, everything has been canceled. Lead support. We need support. Unemployment has been a little bit of a catch 22 for us because a lot of the employees dont necessarily want to come back to work when they are making over 1000 a week staying home. I know thenk Workshare Program and those are really important in ways that we can have our employees come back [indiscernible] and we share in that cost to keep them at the level that theyre used to, the money that theyre making. And i dont understand [indiscernible] if we dont Work Together on that. Thank you. The gentlemans time has expired. Now we recognize the gentleman from samoa gentlewoman from samoa. Can you hear me now . Yes. Yes, we can. Good morning. Or good afternoon, depending on where you may be. I feel sorry for you that you are all stuck on the content and i am getting to enjoy son in paris. I wanted sun in paradise. Thank you for testifying today. Ppp has been extremely helpful. Like many great things, we can always work to make it even better. My question here is for ms. Harrington. Do you believe Small Businesses are aware of the Resources Available to them, within the sba, prior to covid19 . I think prior to covid19, the sba lending has not served businesses of color well. If you look at the data for 2018 in 2019 for the 7a program, the largest program, only 5 of Business Owners were black, only 9 were latino visits owners. I think theres a lot Business Owners. I think theres a lot we can do. I think historically, businesses of color have lacked access through traditional means, even through the sba, which is a government therapy program. Looking at the type of businesses who have not been served, even before covid, is very important. Thats why the data and transparency is also important. There are a number of ways to do this. Its not just about resources. Its about addressing the root causes that extend to Small Business owners. Sosa, can you provide for the committee a brief overview of how it has changed from the beginning of ppe through today . Mr. Sosa . Yes, im here. Just had to remember to unmute. Statute eliminated credit elsewhere from the ppp program. Reinstituted it the credit elsewhere by requiring Small Businesses to self certify that they needed the money. And then they failed to provide a definition of what need is. Its complete the undefined. And then they started criticizing those Small Businesses for applying, and scared several of my borrowers away. Offd a borrower that paid 2200, a little 2200 loan, just because he heard the threat from the government. Or else, they said. He came from a country where the government regularly carried out threat and acted on those threats. As an immigrant, he ran scared from the program. Thats unfair. Thats not our country. That upset me quite a bit and i think its wrong. We all need to remember that words mean something. And not to threaten these poor, Small Business people. Thank you, madam chairwoman. I yield back. The gentlelady yields back. Now we recognize the gentleman from new jersey, mr. Kim. Thank you, madam chair, for pulling together this very important hearing, one of the most important issues that i hear constantly in my district here in new jersey. Talking about reforms in the Paycheck Protection Program, and how were making sure funds are getting into the hands of people who need it most. That is really the critical question. And ms. Harrington, i thought you really eloquently spoke to the challenges that are faced, certainly by making sure we are getting these funds to businesses owned by minority owned businesses in communities of color and other places where people are in dire need. Ive also been hearing from Small Businesses across various other industries, like nonprofit, afterschool programs, and medical programs, and are in dire need of aid. A lot of their work is integral to different aspects of reopening. So, i guess ms. Harrington, i wanted to ask you as we are starting to see through upcoming stimulus bills and other additional efforts, do you think it would be beneficial to expand ppe ppp to other types of businesses, like the ones that i mentioned . I think first, i just want to reiterate very important to reform the current ppp until funds run out. I think moving forward, we do need to think about programs that are not just loan programs. We need to think about traditional Grant Programs that would benefit and be targeted to the Small Businesses and the businesses located in low and middle income communities. There are ways to do that. Also thinking about which agencies were working with. If there is a long program, which lenders . Theres a number of ways to do that, but we need to look at a sector that hasnt been served, the populations that havent been served, and recognize that maybe the Paycheck Protection Program was helpful for some, but it doesnt work for all businesses and we have to think about more creative ways moving forward. About the importance of data, and just waiting to have that data to first of all, understand what sectors are getting hardest hit, and the overlay on top of that, just when we think these different sectors will be able to get back on their feet. We know theres asymmetry to that and some sectors may be able to get back on their fee earlier than others. And i think ms. Kelly, i want to just turn to you here. I think we lost im here. Can you hear me . In particular, when it comes to these issues here, my district is my district is one where seasonal tourism is a economy, of the especially out on the jersey shore. So, i wonder if you could just elaborate a little more on the unique challenges that you are facing in terms of your business and the uncertainty of how the next couple of weeks and months will look when it comes to opening back up. Well, we are already in almost the kick of the season here in maine, so its been very daunting to have to be in this position at this point. Were living in an historic moment right now. In my opinion, we need to expand the ppp, which may be survival for Small Businesses who really depend on a certain window of time for the amount of revenue that they make. I think it would be beneficial for different loans, but somehow we have to capture this moment or the whole year is awash. Thank you for that. I have certainly been hearing from a lot of restaurants. I have been visiting a number of them this week as we were dealing with outdoor seating today, or earlier this week. Though we continue to hear the same thing youre saying, which restaurants cant operate off capacity. Ty or 40 margins are already hard enough at peak level. So i certainly want to continue to work with you and others to see what we can do to get you the help that you need. With that, i yield back. And i would recognize the gentleman from ohio. Madam chair, thank you very much. Thank you for sitting in today, ms. Kelly and dr. Coleman. My first question is a few weeks ago, i joined my colleagues, including mr. Burgess and mr. Hearn, who also sit alongside me in this committee, in requesting a simplified ppp forgiveness application. In this letter to the sba and treasury, as well as senate leadership, we voice our concerns of the complexity of the 11 page ppp loan, forgiveness application, and ask a new simplified version be created, much like the irs rely on the 1040 ez form for some taxpayers. Just this morning, treasury and sba released a 35 await easy loan application 3508 easy loan application program. This is a step and the right direction. I want to thank the administration for making this update. Ms. Kelly and dr. Coleman, have either of you taken a look at this new form application . I apologize. I have not. I was working this morning and came straight from appointments, but i did get a notice by email from one of my colleagues that it passed this morning by the sba. So, i have not had a chance to look at it. Im sure its less daunting than the 11 page document than we have seen already, but unfortunately have not see it not yet. I complete the understand. I was on a flight this morning. Ms. Kelly . Same as dr. Coleman, i was working this morning and i did not have an opportunity to see it. Again, i understand completely. Just wondering if you had a chance to see it. This is for dr. Coleman, my next question. Thank you. Work theal we crisis, but understand the Economic Impact on the nation of Small Business. Between Small Businesses applying for ppp and the federal government because the fund didnt have forgiveness like which included. Over the last few weeks, sba and treasuries have worked to release the language relevant to ppp forgiveness, as well as the application itself. Have you had an opportunity to look through this new information . Yes, yes i have. And if so, what are some of your thoughts . As far as forgiveness, a couple of the big keys that i saw, and i actually made a list of them, the biggest change between the first one and second. Ppp, the, a lot of the payroll was huge. The biggest issues we had, we were concerned about. Once we got funded, where we ate weeks from that date . We were in the middle of the payroll cycle and a little off schedule. That was the big one. Flexibility from the eight weeks to the 24 weeks, we would extend to the 24 weeks because we were holding back 5 of our loans just as a precautionary. We dont number covid is going to go. Were going to hold that back. The 2540 , weve been open the whole time, so the biggest deduction was from payroll. And so, where is ms. Kelly may have had more of an issue with paying her rent, paying Everything Else because she didnt have as many employees on staff i had 34 employees the entire time. So it was perfect for us. But for another business that may have been closed, thats going to be hugely beneficial to them because they are going to be able to grab that 40 and pay more to keep their doors open. 31 extension to december regarding the ftes is going to be important because now you have equivalents. The hardest part is the extra 600 people are making on on appointment, and getting people back is the hardest part. People are coming back to work angry because theyre making less money, but they have to go back to their job or they could lose their job. So that its firing is going to help that expiring is going to help. And then the other one was the goodfaith of rehiring. That was going to be a massive thing. If i am trying to rehire but i cant rehire, and if i can show i have done all these interviews i cant get anybody in that is going to be a godsend for some of these businesses that cant rehire but they have been trying very hard to. Those are just some examples i thought were fantastic. Thank you very much. I yield back. The gentleman yields back. And now the gentlelady from california. Thank you. Mr. Sosa, since the start of the covid crisis, its been a top priority of mine to ensure loans and resources are provided in nonenglish lang which is. Im thankful for all the committees nonenglish languages. Im thankful for all the committees have done. But its key that the sba also provides proactive outreach to Small Business owners with limited anguish English Proficiency and supports lenders responsible for processing ppp applications. Im interested in your perspective as a lender. Could you explain what processes you have to serve Business Owners who need service in nonenglish lang which is, and cant languages, and can you explain what is being done to help these businesses . Unfortunately, we have not guidance onh documentation. Largestootprint, the language is spanish. We are very fortunate within our organization we have several people who are spanish speakers and we are able to employ their address the needs of particular borrowers they needed that assistance. Yourw, you said in testimony that the ppp forgiveness application is so complex that Small Businesses would need to hire professionals to help them understand it. Do you believe the sba has done enough to help limit Business Owners navigate these forgiveness applications . Well, youre exactly correct. My view on the former 11 page application is that its extremely daunting. Now, the forgiveness application that came out this morning is a step in the right direction. I fed only an opportunity to review it cursory, so i cant like to it in detail, but anything else, the devil is in the details and theres a couple of items in there that are still requiring all the same documentation as before. So my recommendation to this committee and to the congress is that an auto forgiveness legislation is passed to direct the agencies to set up at 150,000 automatic forgiveness of loans. Yeah, thank you. Ms. Harrington, sba was directed by congress to prioritize underserved businesses, including those owned by minorities, women, and veterans in their administration of the ppp. However, when i chaired a form last month, he tells me the sba has not provided any formal guidance to lenders, but merely emailed a few Community Banks and encourage them to serve these businesses. Can you explain what specific type of guidance sba must and should provide lenders to ensure that they can adequately prioritize underserved businesses . Youre absolutely right and we have yet to see this guidance. Provide guidance. The fact that this is included in the cares act and that these communities be served is important. The fact the sba did not reach out to lenders with specific to viewion about how these communities as different partners to work with, also the Technical Assistance was provided from universities and not necessarily through community organizations. It could have also included information about working with other Community Partners like cdf eyes and ndis, who do a good job of serving this committees. There is so much the these communities. There is so much the sba could have done. Some of them are simple things and they didnt take the steps to do so, in addition to not collecting the data to know what is happening with the lending itself. Thank you. I yield back. The gentlelady yields back and i would recognize the gentleman from oklahoma, mr. Hearn, for five minutes. Thank you, madam chairwoman, thank you Ranking Member chavez. Its great to see we have a hearing and before we can have a hearing, the simplified form comes up. How about that for congressional work . You want to be happy about that. I wish every thing could happen at that speed. I sympathize with each of you, being a Small Business owner for 35 years, the majority of that in the Restaurant Industry. Its been very, very difficult for everyone, but specifically those in the restaurant and hotel industry. But im also very thankful that were able to find a way to get money to businesses very quickly by using our Financial Institutions out there, and whats been done in the ppe loans and auto loans. [no audio] whats been done in the ppe loans and automany thatr bankruptcy, and its tragic that covid19 pandemic has caused this to happen. Havepe loans in my state been in the state of obama, six 2000 loans and roughly 5 61,000 loansans and roughly 5 billion in loans. As we all know and sometimes forget, we put about 1520 years of work the sba normally does and shoved it into a 12 week period, and thats no easy task for any industry or any business or lending institution, much less a government institution. So i want to be recognizing of the hard work of the staff, and i know this is not to be critical of the staff, more of the institution. I know the staff has had to work long hours to make sure businesses were saved. The first questions i have is really because theres been actual guidance and the sba has had to release frequent the ask questions that have been leaked out frequently asked questions that have been leaked out, the administrator guides them through confusing times. And further adding confusion or the multiple releases of the rules that sometimes have contradicted themselves. Kelly, youeman, ms. Talked about this confusion in your testimony and i was wondering as people look at Small Business, none of us want to spend any time in the past, certainly not the last four months, but as we go forward, what are some of the solution both of you think the sba can implement moving forward to protect the ppp program . Theres still roughly 90 billion other. So we can help with the money we currently have authorized that we can currently help the Small Businesses that are out there. Ms. Kelly, you want to go first . Absolutely. You know, the recent passage of the ppp fa was great. I applied to increase my loan and unfortunately, i was notified by the bank they changed the field goal. They had already submitted their 1502 and i was approved for a certain amount of money, but then i was denied. I would like that to be revisited. And smallrs businesses, none of us that this would last longer than eight weeks and here we are. Dr. Coleman, could you give us your thoughts . You need to unmute, sir. The 60 thats out there right now, as far as what we use for payroll, i think one thing that is scaring some people is that split. Am idont hit that 60 , going to [indiscernible] so maybe the Small Business committee and sba can come out and say if you use 55 , we will forgive 35 of your other one . So theres a little concern as far as thats concerned. Everybody is saying the same thing. That heres where , that would be one of the big ones. The other big concern i have is taxation of the loans. I dont know if this is something to discuss here, but we have to save 2535 of the loans to repay all the taxes because its not currently deductible on our taxes. Now were concerned weve got one for 200,000. Do i need to give that back to pay that tax back . Thank you so much. We recognize the gentlelady where is it . [indiscernible] for five minutes. Thank you, chairwoman velasquez, and also i would like to thank Ranking Member chavez for holding this hearing today. Unfortunately, there have been many challenges for Small Businesses who tried to access the programs, and in more recent conversations with Small Business owners, one of their main concerns is complexity around loan forgiveness. Toos glad to see others are that today the sba revised its application and introduced a streamlined application for smaller borrowers. However, many challenges and questions about the process remain. And im glad we have both Small Business owners and lenders on the panel today. Id like to hear from both perspectives. Do you believe that the rolling and piecemeal nature of the ppp guidance from the sba has discouraged or disincentivized Small Businesses from entering the program . I can go first. Please. That was the biggest thing i heard from my colleagues, the people that didnt get it was this is something where i dont know the rules, and therefore i dont want to take on that debt because it wasnt a slam dunk. This is what is going to happen. I would prefer not to take on any additional debt, because that is scary to Small Business. We dont want that. We we dont want debt. We have mortgages, Small Business loans. So taking out that without that concrete you do this, its forgiven that was the biggest concern, i would say. Definitely as major issue in terms of the rollout of the program and the confusion, particularly to the Small Businesses and those owned by people of color. The time it took to even figure out what forgiveness would look like, and youre right, so many were praying this would not be a grant. Were afraid this would not be a grant. We dont even know what this would look like. So the idea they would have debt that they would have to pay back in the next two years is externally scary for many of them, and also other things in the program that dont get talked about much. The first week, so proprietors couldnt even apply for funding. So all of these things indicate and thats the vast majority of people of color, that this program is not for them and it would not work for them in the long run. I would like to say that since ppp roles have changed and the pandemic lasted longer than we expected, and all of this is compacted in a seasonal area where we depend on 36 million tourists a year, and we only have 1. 5 million residents in our state, we need the ppp we need ppe support, we need change, and we also need to know what the rules are because we are afraid if we do and we are afraid if we dont. Recognitionate the of our Small Businesses and sole proprietors, particularly the Small Business owners who are from marginalized communities meeting that certainty around the rules and the rollout. Know a lot of folks here in kansas who were Small Business owners were concerned about what felt like a tumultuous and uncertain time with the rollout of these programs. They recognize they didnt. Eally need the relief with that, i yield the balance of my time. I recognize the gentleman from tennessee. I guess he just logged off, so we recognize the gentle man from North Carolina. Go. m ready to i am on route, madam chairman, if you can skip me. The gentleman from tennessee is recognized. Thank you, chair lady. I have been all over the place today trying to figure it out there it it out. Can you hear me . I will go with that. Thank you also much. I wanted to tell ms. Kelly that my nephew is a Culinary Institute of america graduate. He was not an alumni the same way you were, but i think someday he will inspire to that. I have heard from small folks and lenders that we need simplification of the loan forgiveness process. As plaut proud to join with my friend terry bar in writing letter a letter to the treasury. On a personal note, i hope everybody remembers andy barr and his lovely little girls. Theirttle girls lost mother last night. I know that is a tragedy. Prayers. Er him in our newerday, we announced a easy application that i look forward to reviewing. In your opinion, are there any roadblocks for small loan forgiveness . Im sorry i was having difficulty on muting. Unmuting. Issuance of this mornings form, which i too have not had an opportunity to review indepth. Like the good doctor stated earlier, it was just 11 pages long. While the appearance appears in the step in the right direction, it also appears that what theyve done is simply separated from the instructions on the actual form. Simpler, but they will still have some notifications and traditional that was included in that form. Highly difficult to obtain. Best is very the much like the what the doctor has said. We need forgiveness. If you have a loan of 50,000 or less you are forgiven and congress has the ability to do that. Is there anyway you could of banks anderview ppe today . At the beginning, the statute illuminated credit elsewhere, just plain and simple did that. Certify thatd to they need that application and nobody has defined what need is. Thank you. I yield back the rest of my time. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. I would like to recognize the gentleman from pennsylvania. I want toou, madame follow up on something you said. Not to put words in your mouth, a businesses like to the pandemic, and then the unrest and then theres the ppe. Whatme in a specific way amount of black businesses you think belong. We are definitely at risk of that is hard to tell, but the numbers you do know are very telling and the stories you are hearing are telling. When we hear numbers like 41 of black Business Owners have when we look at the unemployment numbers there are still so high and so much higher than in black communities , we know there were businesses that were already struggling for businessesc, sony that entered the pandemic less than three weeks of reserves to sustain this now, dont know how long this will last because there are some the other issues in this country. Somebody enacted businesses, many of them will probably not reopen and many are still waiting for answers on ppe. Extends thatmic number will only increase. Thats why we need to not only think about ppe but fixing Small Business and supported general. So then take the next step and tell me specifically the kind of things you think should happen. With regard to ppe we forcate for an agency crating that streamlined forgiveness for loan vendors, which would save countless hours 71 million hours of labor we estimate on behalf of Business Owners who would provide all of that documentation and go through this people pieces of labor. Transparencyon and is very important. Job of showingt business in the communities, providing guidance in the markets, and providing guidance to the Small Businesses with low to moderate income. And this is beyond just loan Program Loans provided to the federal government to remove the intermediary Financial Institution we recognize there were already issues of accessing the program where we see the lack of access to credit that has plagued these communitys for decades. There is already a barrier to accessing that program through the intermediary. Are you talking about the idle program . Absolutely is one that is one example. Grant programs directly through the irs and treasuries. There are number of ways to do that beyond just having Financial Institutions as intermediary. Creates a barrier for many businesses. Thank you, madame chair. We recognize the gentleman from North Carolina. Thank you, madame chairman. Ranking member, witnesses, thank you for joining us today or an important conversation on the Paycheck Protection Program. Room as ie committee have been the previous meeting. For having to task people disinfected but i do it for a very important reason, which is to emphasize we can be in washington. There are other people in this room, but we could be wearing masks, we could be doing business in washington and i think it would make your testimony more effective fortunately the hearing comes at as members have proceeded with another witchhunt , this time and at secretary mnuchin, administrator carranza, and lenders. Program wesed the did it in a bipartisan fashion. Last week, director of the Congressional Budget Office praised the Treasury Department and Small Business administration for moving whiley and efficiently also stating the stimulus went out faster then in the 2008 financial crisis. Fortunately, my democratic colleagues failed to recognize the trump administrations sift swift actions to save our economy. There is more work but democrats would rather investigate and critique the administration then provide adequate recovery to americans. Make no mistake, the antics and sham investigation is not limited to the trump investigation. They also want to investigate lenders who serve as the conduit for providing Small Business relief. Vendors did not ask for that role but they delivered. I heard from vendors throughout North Carolina about obstacles it would take to participate in the program they were nervous and skeptical they stepped up to help Small Businesses and their community. Worriedtestimony, you about the way the federal government is treating lenders, that might lead to fewer Lending Partners in the future. Wonder, would you believe that the same logic applies to congress as it begins investigating lenders for their role in ppe . The difficulty that i face as i am not a politician. I dont really have an ax to grind either way. I look at is when we put out a program, we know what the rules are. We know how to put a loan on the books, we know how to take it through the process and collect that loan. That is the process that assures that oversight is fair and a process that tries to assure lending is fair to all communities. If we could get Something Like that you would have more participation from all the members. If amarillo National Bank were asked to turn over all communication related to administering ppp, as well as other lenders from doing business with the federal government . Let me ask for clarification please. You are asking if all the documentation sba treasury used to direct the program. Your banks correspondence, the retrospective request to turn over all correspondence you had, someone has a finetooth comb, does that deter you from wanting to cooperate . We are participating at sba lending for at least 15 years. Our books are open and it would be a simple task of all the faqs in 1819. You mentioned the supplemental unemployment caused you difficulty, it is good that it was doing that. If this was extended to december 30 first would that be harmful to you . Time has expired. In illinois, schneider. Thank you for holding this, the Committee Staff for standing up the remote capabilities are allowing us to have numerous briefings, to help Small Businesses in this difficult time. I just want to thank everyone. Pcp has been for the country and my district in particular a lifeline for workers and businesses. We hear about it on a daily basis, not just the challenges of the covid19 pandemic but lack of clarity from the treasury program, the fda representatives and Small Businesses Development Center for uptodate guidance. The sba level staff, my team is a value resource with a group of dedicated employees but the guidance coming from treasury has been anything but clear releasing 17 rules, 48 faqs, the application for the loan forgiveness process is 11 pages before applicants became eligible. With the ev process, lenders say neither of these simplify the process at all. I heard from local banks and districts with Small Business applications with innumerable questions about the loan forgiveness process. I want to focus on simplification and clarity. Small business is but one individual, i was doing the accounting myself. There is a whole list of other tasks these people have to do, to be simple enough to rely on outside assistance but testified. Looking to our two Business Owners, can you find context, how much you laid out the amount of energy and time that was invested to go through the forgiveness process. All of that to submit my application. It was very difficult for the necessary ruling. As the financial need has changed with covid19. With that capacity and revenue it was very telling for me to have that so my forgiveness seems possible. Schneider . As far as that goes the loan process went very well. I pride myself on being ahead of the curve seeking out all the information to get everything as clear as i could. I knew there would be a frenzy. I found my application as a Business Owner, requiring help from my accounts to get the proper 941 documents together. I hope i am on track for everything as far as payroll and percentagewise so we have hopefully a good chance of getting forgiveness, holding back 9 of our loans in calamity down the road if anything happens, if somebody gets sick my business suffers. We are seeing that and i hope to return that in the best case scenario. I appreciate your testimony especially the story of the American Dream and 50 years and wish you all the best. The gentlemans time has expired and we recognize the gentle lady from pennsylvania. I echo mister schneiders appreciation to the staff for allowing this to be possible and making it look so easy and folks testifying in front of us i can feel the tension and the pain remotely, i know how exasperating it is as former Business Owner and operator and entrepreneur i can feel the pain and hope we can be helpful in alleviating that. My question has to do with the concept of automatic forgiveness. I understand from miss kelly and a lot of folks who testified 150,000 lines that people are drawing and i understand that represent 80 of the total loans but getting to the testimony about transparency and importance of data i also think it is important we have transparency to understand where they were spend because the last time we implement Something Like the Paycheck Protection Program i want it to be more expedient the next time we do it. If we blanket for give anybody under 100, 000 we will have lost the granularity of the data. If i could start with mister sosa, what kind of effort could we undertake that would allow us to capture that important data but not take hours of time away from Business People and lenders to allow us to have that . That is a challenge. When you look at this even if we just take the case, 50, 000 or less, that is a significant challenge, 150,000 as you mentioned does take care of the majority of the applicants out there but nothing wrong with getting a simple certification from folks who spent the money even if they ask for an estimation could we have a chart that says i spent 80 on salary on this organization . That would be very simple and appropriate. We just need to be sure the agencies directed as such to avoid the fact they might continue on the road to the program application. Needs to be simpler than that. Part of the concern is if a Small Business person has this loan outstanding year or two from now or three years from now somebody changes their mind, they are not eligible at that point that is a scary thought. I understand and i would love to hear from ms. Harrington. Something we can be helpful to make sure we know this as it is important, who got it, to make sure we are good stewards for the taxpayers. Absolutely and the simple certification form that we support finding they spent the money on eligible expenses and goodfaith certification, for their Demographic Data. A 1page form even if allowed, sba and the lenders, rely on goodfaith certification for small dollar loans, could be as simple as that but Something Congress will have to do because documentation is so extensive, it enables this to take part in that as smallest businesses would give you the transparency you need to know where these are going. I was wondering if the chair would allow me because im the last person to ask the question. To miss kelly, your working to make sure you can get your loans forgiven in the ideal scenario. What is the biggest challenge to do that as a matter of data for making sure you can track things with all the changes for sda and the program . There is a separate bank account and track a lot of business for the account, in either way i did it it was helpful for a time but in the long run it is calculation being take a bite of apple was denied because the filing of the 1502. As far as my concerns most of my information came, send out a nice little newsletter that was changed last week, that is one place Small Business can reach out to and send this information to your clientele. It gave me a massive amount of information but puts my mind at ease where to go from here. My time has expired. I yield back and thank you for the extra time. Thank you for all the Witnesses Today for their testimony and their views on the ppp by sharing your experiences, more effective oversight to optimize the ppp program, they are saving Small Business jobs, there are issues that need to be addressed. I assure you we will work to make the program as accessible for buyers and lenders as they can be. I ask unanimous consent that members submit statements supporting materials for the record, is there further business before the committee, we are adjourned. Here is doctor Robert Redfield and doctor stephen hahn on the federal response to the pandemic at 11 am on cspan. On the foreign sovereign immunity use act and state lawsuits against china, seeking damages for the spread of covid19. The Senate Returns to continue work on the nomination of corey wilson to the fifth circuit court. The Washington Post interviews former National Security adviser john bolton at 1 00 pm talking about his book the room where it happened. To examine Lessons Learned from covid19 to prepare for the next pandemic. At 2 00 pm house ways and means subcommittee hea