0 unlawfully on americans or spy indiscriminately on citizens of any country. we only spy for valid intelligence purposes with multiple layers of oversight to ensure we don't abuse our authorities. >> of the two the medical story or spying one, which will have a longer effect and why? we put that to howard fineman from the huffingupon post media group. i did want to put an explainer on the health care piece of this so people understand what's going on here. the reason that we have the minimum standards for obama care so people can't gain the system so that the thing that they have is actual health insurance and it covers a standard minimum of care is the idea behind it. nonetheless, republicans have certainly seized on this and people are getting cancellation notices and of course either go to a different plan within their same health insurer or on the obama care exchange, do you think that piece and overall problems with the rollout of politics of this even more, i doubt. in part because the republicans had been so strident and incooperative, have been so sort of knee jerk in their hatred of the whole thing. when a legitimate point comes up about the salesmanship, they don't have much standing to sue. i do think it will further energize their base and opposition. you can expect ted cruz and whole crew, cruz crew, to be back with this in january. >> of course. >> i do want to push back a little bit. you have a president reassuring the american people, if you like why are doctor you, you can keep your doctor, period. if you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan, period. now you have millions of americans who are being dumped by insurance companies recognizing that this is actually not the case, this is what the national review said, so far the part of the obama care rollout affecting most getting much at all. the other thing going on here, is this has been an assumption of authority by the federal government over the administration of insurance, which until the affordable care act was something that the states did, not the federal government. now there are federal standards and yeah they were going to result in a lot of people getting -- having to pay more and get new coverage. the way they wrote the regulations for saying your coverage was grandfathered in, they wrote it in a very narrow way so more people would get kicked off the old coverage so they would have to get the new coverage which is better coverage. for many people they will be depending on their income and subsidies available and that involves the irs and telling them everything about your assets and everything. and frankly, during a campaign, which would you rather say? don't worry, you can keep your coverage or, you can sort of keep your coverage but you'll get better coverage but there will be subsidies available and it will be better, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. they didn't make that claim. there's no question they did not campaign that way. and they will privately admit that to you. >> all right, let's talk about another privacy type issue, the other big issue of the day, the nsa, telling quote from the foreign -- former french foreign minister who said the magnitude of the eavesdropping is what shocked us, let's be honest, we eavesdrop too, everyone is listening to everyone else but we don't see have the same means of the united states. i'm sure it sounded better in the original french. we should be listening to world leaders, other world leaders are listening to other world leaders, we don't need every citizen in every country. we need to know what they are talking about and thinking about. much like the boy who gets caught in the midst of stealing cookies and continues to be allowed to get cookies, we're continuing to do this eu, u.s. trade deal. angela merkel is saying let's not let the nsa problem keep us from doing this deal. >> especially since bernard kirschener was involved, it reminds me of the sergeant in casablanca, who is shocked -- >> we played that clip yesterday. >> okay, i'm sorry. >> shocked there's gambling going on at all. >> howard, we watch you when you're on "the cycle". >> thank you. by the way, i think today the administration kind of threw those other intelligence agencies in the eu countries under the bus because we're now saying that a lot of this listening was done not directly from the united states assets, whether they be satellites or cable intercepts, they are done under sort of contract if you will, by the domestic agencies in those other countries. and we were harvesting those phone calls. edward snowden has not only gotten in the middle of the united states versus the rest of the world, he's gotten in between the governments and their own spy agencies, which is perhaps one reason why the article is saying, let's not worry too much about this. let's move onto the -- >> nothing to see here. >> let's move onto the economic discussion. we don't want to get too deep in the weeds. >> you would need a greyhound depot for the buses that people are trapped under. dianne feinstein, a muscular proponent of expensive surveillance and has repeatedly carried water for two administrations to expand the surveillance laws is furious apparently by her own statements primarily because she was out of the loop. she like the president reportedly out of the loop. the nsa out of the loop compared to obviously some of their targets. the only loop that seems to work here is at the nsa itself, where you have 25,000 employees working on a bunch of important security stuff and a bunch of other stuff, which if you believe the president, is nonessential. and is not part of our security because it can be stopped and started at will for diplomatic other other reasons. isn't there a larger problem here of an agency that is so large, even its biggest defenders are upset or claiming they are not in dialogue with the leadership? >> it does -- it's not great for the president either way for him to say he did no idea what was going on, nsa was listening to angela merkel and others, if it's true he didn't know and die fi didn't know and these elected officials and people in the civilian government that would need this information supposedly, then you have the clear impression of a giant rogue operation that is just gathering information wherever it can from whomever it can in whatever way it can for some unspecified purpose of knowing everything about everything. it's a kind of machine that goes of itself. and that's a -- on one level it's kind of vaguely comical, on another, it's very frightening. why are -- if they are not giving the information that the president and the people running the senate intelligence committee and so forth, what are they doing it for? >> right. >> what else are they doing? >> what else are they up to and for whom? >> howard, is it not necessarily they are not giving each other precedent, they present information to the president and he doesn't say, where did you get this from? he says now we have this information. >> if he's getting information on angela merkel is saying to vladimir putin, where does he think we're getting it from? >> he raises an important point, it looks like increasingly the nsa an investigator without a client. >> exactly. >> i bet they are watching right now. >> thank you very much. up next, a congressman in the middle of the action on both spying and website hearings joins us in the guest spot. that and a spin as the cycle rolls on. could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. everybody knows that. well, did you know that when a tree falls in the forest and no one's around, it does make a sound? ohhh...ohhh...oh boy! i'm falling. everybody look out! ahhhhh...ugh. little help here. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know. anybody? you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec-d®. powerful relief of nasal congestion and other allergy symptoms -- all in one pill. zyrtec-d®. at the pharmacy counter. 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>> not at all. nsa people are asking whether it's run by keith alexander or dr. strangelove. they have this huge dragnet of getting information about everyone, everywhere. it has a huge budget, huge tech no logical capacity. but it has no restraint and no judgment and no prudance, that's a bad situation. it's making people at home very insecure because if we're that bad at compromising relationships with folks like head of germany, what do we do with our own citizens here? >> you also have a woman in the thick of it, marilyn tavenner, she apologized publicly today. let's take a listen. >> to shop and enroll in health care coverage, i want to apologize to you. i want to you assure you healthcare.gov can and will be fixed and we're working around the clock to deliver the shopping experience that you deserve. >> she assured the american people that the website can and will be fixed. for someone who has led hundreds of white house meetings heading up to the launch, it seems there were a number of times she and many others could warn the president about the looming problem. was this a lost opportunity or am i missing something? >> you're absolutely right. this is a setback in two respects. it undercuts confidence in the law and it's going to be used by the opponents to much broader indictments and undeserved but it is a problem. secondly, it undercuts people's confidence to get something done. let's put it into context. when we had medicare part d, president bush plan, there was a huge computer glitch when that started out. and many of the members of the republican party supported that law, called and properly bipartisan effort to fix the problems, work together and solve it. obviously that's the challenge we have now. we want to get our republican colleagues to make the fix. it is a setback, we have to fix it and move on. >> thank you very much, we're going to continue with a spin right now. if you think this might be over because the president saying we shouldn't do this anymore and senator feinstein saying we shouldn't do it anymore. no, this is what governments do, they snoop on other governments. we have a senior official saying we have made some individual changes which i cannot detail, we have not made across the board changes in policy like terminating intelligence collection that might be aimed at our allies and of course they are not going to do that. we need to know in terms of making trade deals and national securities, what the allies and enemies are talking about. sometimes allies try to make deals with the enemies. the risk of not knowing what other people are talking about, outweighs the pain of getting caught. >> the position that we're going to keep doing this is not the position of the obama administration. >> i'm working off their statements. we generally work off their statements unless we finds out reason to believe they are lying. there has not been a credible set of evidence put forward to help us understand why we think the president would be lying about this if he were though. >> we don't talk about intelligence. >> there's a way that it's dealt with. there's a private committees that work in secret and in public sessions you say that goes beyond what we're talking about. the official word they are dialing some of this back. senator dianne feinstein has a legal constitutional role here, a member of the gang of eight, heads of the intelligence committees supposed to be in the loop. is it a giant conspiracy? when the president is pretending to be out of the loop and allies? i don't think so. i think what we have and we touched on this last segment. keith alexander running oversight surveillance and complete vacuuming up of so much information, they can't even keep track. i want to play one thing from the general on his reaction to all of this, which hasn't gotten enough attention. let's listen. don't have it. i'm going to read it. he says, i think it's wrong that newspaper reporters have all of these documents and it doesn't make sense. we ought to come up with a way of stopping it. nsa is getting called out by everyone, including defenders and what's their response, journalism should go away. >> congressman welsh just said there's no restraint and judgment and no prudence, americans want to make sure that our government is keeping us safe and nsa is collecting intelligence when it's useful. but i think the para dime they used is what can we do rather than what should we do? there also hasn't been enough thought put to the fact this we are in a different world where you have to assume anything you're doing is going to eventually come out. that is the naturnature of the you're in. is this worth doing if the whole world knows we're doing it? >> absolutely. we're going to talk to ronin farrow. >> for that part, democrats did not so much offer website difficulty reasons as much as website difficulty rhymes. >> let's the goal here be to fix it not nix it. >> work together to fix it and not nix it. >> we have to fix it, not nix it. >> fix it, don't nix it. >> fix it. do not nix it. correct it. do not reject it. debug it, please do not unplug it. improve it, don't remove it. repair it. not foreswear it. ♪ ♪ we've got to squeeze her don't tease her ♪ ♪ never leave her from the website ♪ ♪ try a little tenderness