The day's biggest political and news stories, with interviews and reporting from around the nation. charge of an investigation and a guy who is the subject of an investigation that just got more profound. we have to preface everything, ari, with if the account from michael cohen is true, blah, blah, blah. so if the account is true, it is a tremendous change in the landscape. what it does is show us two things. one, that donald trump, from the very beginning, was in on an attempt at collusion, an attempt to conspire with a plot that was described to donald trump jr. as a secret operation by the kremlin to help trump. so if trump knows about that from the very beginning, and is in on it, i think that has a lot of legal, but even more so, political implications. plus if he's told about this, and even if nothing came out of the meeting, remember throughout the whole campaign and up to now he keeps denying or dismissing the russian operation. could have been a 400-pound guy in a basement. the russians didn't do this. we don't know the russians did this. they kept doing that. what does he want up front? it makes everyone, democrats, republicans, members of his own administration, very nervous what he is doing in these two-hour, one-on-one meetings with putin. something strikes me, as david was talking about this meeting, even the fact of the meeting, the fact that his people took a meeting with russian operatives is itself then leverage and a reason for blackmail because if that comes out during the campaign, oh, they were conspiring with the russians, that in itself is a way of applying pressure to the president. so the president from day one has been very upset that somehow his entire presidency would be discredited by the notion that the russians had helped him. guess what? the russians did help him. if he knew about that, that's reason to fire james comey, reason for him to craft a phony explanation for that meeting in trump tower. it's reason for a lot of behavior that seemed odd at the then you add michael cohen here potentially alleging to mueller that donald trump had all this advance notice, what does that do to the investigation in your view as a prosecutor? >> you know, the president's coverup here, the statement that he dictated on air force one has never made any sense. on the one hand if the meeting was unimportant, and as someone said at the time a nothing burger, then why does the president go to the trouble of lying about it? that statement that the president drafted for don jr. has only ever made sense if this meeting was critically important, and equally important to cover up. so now what we see, if cohen's statement is true, and david corn is correct, we need to understand whether it can be authenticated, and also precisely what cohen will have to say when he makes it. but if it turns out to be true, a lot of these pieces, puzzle pieces that are scattered across the table start to click into place. >> we'll put up, while you're and it's a statement that we know more about now because the indictment that robert mueller put out recently of 12 russian military intelligence officers who were involved in hacking the democrats to help trump and hurt hillary clinton in that indictment mueller describes this day as the day late at night. he puts that into the indictment for a reason, late at night they started targeting or trying to penetrate hillary clinton's own personal e-mails, and e-mails of people on the campaign as if they were taking donald trump's instructions and guidance. so here, you know, to go back to joyce's point, we understand more now. if donald trump was told about this meeting, it means he was told that russia wanted to help him secretly. and here he is now publicly communicating with russia say, hey, this is how i want you to help. i mean, collusion, conspiracy, obstruction, coverup, all these narratives which intertwine are bolstered by michael cohen's account if true. >> and so jennifer when david lays it out like that, it's chilling because the more benign earlier interpretations that were available were lower-level people did this, or everyone's an idiot, and they didn't really understand all the meetings they were going to. by the way, idiot defenses can work in the law. it's not a crime to be stupid and go to the wrong meeting. what david lays out when you put these pieces together, according to cohen's theory of the case. we always can report there will be denials, there will be other perspectives. but according to cohen's theory of the case, you're adding testimonial evidence that suggests, no, they weren't idiots. at a very high level they had a lot of information that they then acted on. >> and all the idiot behavior was in one direction. no one ever thought, oh, i met with the russians when they didn't. they kept saying they never met with the russians when they did. every piece of evidence that we've seen, the public statements, the private statements, the fact of the meeting, the attempt to cover up the meeting, it all makes sense only if there was an attempt to solicit help from the russians. and if you recall way back when the trump people have always said what's so bad about taking a meeting like this this? anyone would take information that they were offered. that's how campaigns run. that was a very telling statement. i think it suggests to us that that's what they thought. they thought, hey, the russians are going to help us, that's swell. and it's only been as time goes on that they realize how politically and legally perilous that was. so hence the coverup. >> right, because you're not supposed to hijack elections with foreign governments. >> yeah, who knew? right? >> who knew? >> no one ever told them that. you know, they were novices. >> i want to thank jennifer rubin and joyce vance. david real quick, have you ever been on fallback friday? >> no, i have not. could it perhaps happen today? >> it could happen today. a year in we will take you. i would hope to get both of you in some day as well. >> thanks to each of you for being part of our top of the news coverage here. coming up, new reporting on how trump's legal team says they might, quote, bury michael cohen. michael avenatti is here live. coming out of his court fight in the stormy daniels case. plus, we're debuting a new series today with tony schwartz, author of "the art of the deal," and talking about the pressure facing trump. all that, plus, of course, fallback friday and our most awkward moments of the year. you're watching a special edition of "the beat" on msnbc. clarity, and protection. together in a single lens. essilor ultimate lens package. purchase the essilor ultimate lens package and get a second pair of qualifying lenses free. essilor. better sight. better life. welcome to holiday inn! thank you! ♪ ♪ wait, i have something for you! every stay is a special stay at holiday inn. save up to 15% when you book early at hollidayinn.com -we're in a small room. what?! -welcome. -[ gasps ] a bigger room?! -how many of you use car insurance? -oh. -well, what if i showed you this? -[ laughing ] ho-ho-ho! -wow. -it's a computer. -we compare rates to help you get the price and coverage that's right for you. -that's amazing! the only thing that would make this better is if my mom were here. what?! an unexpected ending! are you ready to take your then you need xfinity xfi.? a more powerful way to stay connected. it gives you super fast speeds for all your devices, provides the most wifi coverage for your home, and lets you control your network with the xfi app. it's the ultimate wifi experience. xfinity xfi, simple, easy, awesome. there's news tonight that shows donald trump is genuinely nervous about the risk michael cohen poses. the political world shocked by these leaks that cohen would put cohen squarely inside of a conspiracy to get clinton material from the russians. sabotaging his fixer. his aides are telling reporters they'll bury cohen. calling him a traitor. the daily beast reports trump's furious and swearing about cohen. the attack on cohen is weak was previewed earlier this week by the man who served as trump's lawyer before cohen, jay goldberg on "the beat." >> if you spend five minutes with michael cohen, you know that he's not strong. he's weak. it's odd to say this, but when he said that he would stand up for the president, i knew from talking with him for less than five minutes that he was sufficiently weak, that he would cave in with respect to any wrongdoing. >> meanwhile, trump's current lawyer is reversing his past praise of cohen. >> he doesn't have any incriminating evidence about the president or himself. the man is an honest, honorable lawyer. >> i expected something like this from cohen. he's been lying all week. or for -- he's been lying for years. there's nobody that i know that knows him that hasn't warned me that if his back is up against the wall, he'll lie like crazy. he's lied all his life. >> in a moment i'm joined live by michael avenatti about all of this. first, how does this battle go down when all of it can involve the trump organization, the history of the apprentice? before that, i bring in tara dardenel, a former contestant on the apprentice and a democratic operative. you've lived many lives. >> yes. >> and there you are. >> there i am. >> when you look at this and cohen's involvement in the trump organization, what do you see as key in this fight. >> i think what's going to be key in this fight for trump is all about the pr, all about the spin, all about the deny, deflect, attack. as far as cohen is concerned he's going to have to be very careful, because i'm not a lawyer like you, but i think we all know when you are under a criminal investigation yourself and you're seeking to be a cooperating witness, the last thing you want to be doing is talking. any good lawyer will tell you to keep your mouth shut. what cohen clearly wants to do is he wants to go head on at donald trump. he is a man, i've said this before, and some people doubted me on this, he's a man that's been sending smoke signals to donald trump for the past several weeks. those smoke signals went unrequited. i think he is now a man scorned. i think he wants to settle scores. trump has betrayed him multiple times, this was the last straw. >> you're not a lawyer, but you are an apprentice, or you played an apprentice on a reality show. when you look at this situation, something that many of us have grappled to understand, and you were closer to it at an earlier phase of trump's life. certainly michael cohen has seen donald trump screw other people. do you know what it is about some of these people around trump that they see that happen to other people and they don't think it will happen to them? >> it is actually a mind boggling thing. literally on the apprentice, people were threatening to sue donald trump at that time. those people then went back to basically work on his campaign after threatening to sue him and/or initiating the process of suing him. it is actually mind boggling. what it is is that trump attracts people like trump. a lot of people that choose to be in his orbit are people who are looking to ride his coat tails of fame. and i think that that becomes paramount for them. that's the overriding issue. i think michael cohen was one of those people. one of the things that trump is notorious for is not paying people. what he tells the people that he does not pay is that just use my name. tell people you did work for me. that's the value. >> you're alleging that he tells people to say my name? >> say my name, say my name. >> say my name, say my name, say my name. >> that's right. >> well, you know, we're doing an awkward montage later in the show, but i wanted to have some -- >> you wanted to get it out there early. >> do some of it live. it's still a live show tonight. tara, thank you for bringing your experience and insights here. now i bring in michael avenatti, attorney for touchdown and a rumored iowa visitor. why are you going to iowa? >> it's not my first visit to iowa, ari, as you know. i grew up in the show me state of missouri. i'm going to our neighbor to the north. >> i know people who grew up in missouri but aren't going to iowa. >> they must not have good taste. >> well, everyone's interested in your expanding role, your portfolio, your politics. walk us through what happened in court today because your case still continues. >> well, we had a very good morning in court today, ari, as you know, michael cohen and the president have sought to place a gag order, have the court place a gag order over me and prevent me from coming on shows like this and talking about the case, and talking about the evidence to you and your audience. and it was a very good morning. the judge took it under submission. he hasn't issued a ruling yet. but i'd be shocked if he granted the motion. michael cohen and the president's attorneys were almost laughed out of court. the judge was very critical of the motion. and expressed considerable skepticism on the legal arguments they were making, and for good reason, because they were absolutely baseless. and it reeks of desperation. >> it seems like they want to silence you. people can understand why. what about the argument that you savaging mr. cohen at times could affect people's opinions of him and thus jurors? >> well, i don't put a lot of credence into that, ari, because, as you know, when it comes to jury selection, the court can guard against any bias that a juror may come to the court with. and usually does guard against that. you know, it's interesting to me that michael cohen's attorney was arguing so vehemently that i should be gagged and should not be able to speak openly. and look at rudy giuliani's comments last night about michael cohen on chris cuomo's show, he called him a pathological liar, he's been saying he has been lying for years, months, weeks, he said a fact finder should not trust him in a trial. those comments were far beyond anything i've said about michael cohen, why isn't michael cohen's attorney trying to have a gag order placed on rudy giuliani? which would also affect my case, because rudy is the best attorney working on my team. >> i know you feel that way. the other thing i want to ask you about is other news you've broken, and you've been a source of not only ideas and opinions, but also information in this case. you have new women you say are coming forward. i'm wondering why now. so i want to get your answer to that. let's fit in a quick break. we'll come back in just 30 seconds with michael avenatti. e? 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>> well, i'm not putting the idea out there, ari, i'm stating a fact. i have three clients that have hired me as their counsel. each of them had a relationship with mr. trump. each of them were paid hush money prior to the 2016 election. and the time had come to disclose that. and we're going to be disclosing additional details here hopefully shortly, as soon as the clients authorize me to release specifics relating to their each individual instance. but here's what i find to be -- >> i want to hear you on that. let me press you on that. there have been other times in this wide-ranging case where you've put out substantiating information, written information or you've made a client available for public interviewing. that's usually in our business how we verify facts. here you're asking people to take it on your authority without the additional information. this has been going for a while. what, in your view, is holding them back, or why not more information now? >> well, because it's a big decision for each of these individual women to come forward and release their name and provide specifics. i mean, this is serious business, ari. you know, you subject yourself to this scrutiny of the press and you subject yourself to the scrutiny of fox news and others when you do that. it's a very, very serious decision, a big decision for them. but, look, if people don't want to believe me on it, that's fine. i think that's pretty risky in light of my track record over the last six months. >> does at least one of them involve ami? >> yes. >> and that would be a previously undisclosed, not karen mcdougal, correct? >> correct. >> you're talking about something that is very significant that is embedded in the wider news you made in the clip we just showed, if at least one of them involves ami, you're saying this company, which is under significant scrutiny in the cohen case, by the feds in new york, was also doing something else allegedly on behalf of donald trump? >> yes. >> could that then raise their exposure for campaign finance violations, or other misleading of the authorities about what they were doing with that money? >> yes. and i think it will do the same for michael cohen. let me tell you what i find most interesting, ari, it's late now on the east coast. we haven't got a single denial from michael cohen, lanny davis or donald trump or rudy giuliani. not a single denial. no one has come out and said, oh, that avenatti guy doesn't know what he's talking about, it never happened. what does that tell you? >> they've said that before, michael. to be fair. >> and they are wrong. >> they are on the record saying you don't know what you are' talking about. when you look at ami figuring into all this, it is hard to understand why a corporation with its own self-interests in profit interest would get so deeply involved in taking these risks on behalf of another person. can you shed any light on that? >> i think it may come down to a personal relationship and how tight the individuals at the top of that company are or were with donald trump at the end of the day. i think that probably would help explain it. but, you know, as we've talked about before, this is a president that demands loyalty from everyone and provides loyalty to no one with the exception of vlady putin. >> i appreciate the nickname there. let me play for you one of the theories that comes up with this, the cohen tape that you said would come out and have trump on it, and it did, first the idea that they were nervous about what would happen if they didn't have, as you put it, such a close friend at the head of that tabloid company, this is reporter betsy woodruff, take a listen. >> the reason that that conversation happened, according to a source familiar with it, is because david pecker, who's the head of the parent company of the "national enquirer" told president trump that he was thinking about leaving that company. trump then thought, oh no, if my ally leaves this tabloid company, the company could then go ahead and publish the karen mcdougal story. >> what is your assessment of that? >> well, my assessment is, is that they were wise to think that that would be a concern. and i think that ultimately what you're going to find out is that one of the reasons why they moved away from that concept, that use of ami as to some of these other payments, was for this exact concern. that's why the $130,000 payment to my client, for instance, was not made through ami. that's why the two additional payments that i referenced last night were not made through ami for this exact reason. they wanted to close the circle, if you will, so that the president thought he had greater protection with his fixer, michael cohen, who turned out not to be tough and not to be too smart. >> do you have reason to know or believe what ami got in return for spending this money? >> no. but i can -- i can speculate that it would have to be access or preferential treatment. i don't think they did it out of the gracious -- good graces of their heart. >> no. i mean, that's not what corporations are known for. and it's not each what their fiduciary duties provide for. as to michael cohen's assessment, a potential factual assertion that donald trump did okay the trump tower meeting, was that news to you when that news broke last night? >> no, it was not news to me. nor was it news to me today when they immediately went after or last night and today immediately went after michael cohen and now claim that he's a liar. this is going to be quite a show, ari, that's going to play out in the coming weeks and months. i think on your show it was the first instance back in early may that i said they had put too much faith in michael cohen. anybody could see that. what's so ironic to me is, and you played the clip earlier from the president's former attorney, you know, everyone that knew michael cohen or had anything to do with him knew he wasn't that tough and wasn't that smart. it's amazing this president would trust him with his innermost secrets. it goes to show what a complete lack of judgment the president has in so many aspects of his life. >> that's an interesting point. it's your opinion, it's somewhat grounded in the risks we're seeing. what you just said a moment ago in response to my question, you knew this, it wasn't news to you, how did you know that michael cohen had collusion related evidence? >> i'm not at liberty to get into details of all my sources and how i know things, but a lot of my predictions have turned out to be spot on in this case. >> we ask you these questions because a lot of people do want to know how you know things. >> as you know, we have a concept under the law relating to attorney work product. >> sure. >> we're not at liberty to disclose a lot of that information, very similar to journalists. >> michael avenatti, always interesting, a lot of these threads running together here on this friday night. thank you for being on "the beat." i also want to mention thank you for the time you spent with me because this sunday michael and liz plank are joining me for a beat podcast extra, additional conversations, including michael avenatti as a potential presidential candidate. download it at apple podcast. or whatever -- or wherever you get your podcasts. it will be out this weekend. up ahead, we have the impact of crushing legal pressure on trump's state of mind, the co-author of the art of the deal is here, and if it's friday, it's time to fall back. we have a very special one later this evening. hey, no big deal. you've got a good record and liberty mutual won't hold a grudge by raising your rates over one mistake. you hear that, karen? 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>> i would say the u.s. government. stop separating parents from their children. >> yeah. this has been one of the most divisive things in a divisive era of the trump administration. >> i visited the u.s./mexico border recently with athletes for impact. it really opened my eyes to a lot of things where i feel like the general public is not familiar with what's going on. >> it's interesting with the olympics side of it, right, because you probably spend so much time in an environment where you're thinking about what, even in competition, what we share in common with other countries. >> oh, yeah. i mean, sport teaches you so much, how to appreciate one another for our differences. and also these unique qualities we each have that should bring us together. >> yeah. who needs to fall back? >> well, i want r. kelly to fall back. he recently came out with a song, a 19-minute song called "i admit" essentially admitting he commits child sexual abuse and says he has a cult in his home. it was disturbing, frustrating, and it was like one of those moments where i was like if the country and the r&b world doesn't make him fall back, i don't know what will. >> and isn't this one of those moral situations where, yes, someone can put something into the world that people like, you know, bill cosby made a show, and you can talk about parts of the show that you like, it does not cancel out other facts that are found about their conduct. >> that's exactly right. and with r. kelly this has been an issue with him for years. i mean, he has been sexually assaulting and preying on young women and girls for a very long time. people have talked about it in the black community, outside of the black community. i think for him to write the song and put it out on the internet, and the way it was just so incredibly disgusting, and so many of us were like, black twitter in particular was like, you know what, black women on twitter were like you need to fall back. >> also, by the way, shout out to black twitter, shout out. do you think he was hoping to sort of exploit and use the song to try to gain some currency with all this? or cancel out the issue? >> i think he is doing what a lot of men do under patriarchy which is be in denial. and also to be absent from the realities of harming women, you know. for r. kelly, he thinks, well, i'm offering this life for women, and they are consenting to it. but he's actually not talking about the power that comes with being an artist, with being an older man, and living inside a sexist environment. >> i think it's very important you bring it to the table. and then of course the legal side is something we've covered, when you're below the age of consent, that's why legally you cannot have consent, something that obviously he has been accused repeatedly, incredibly, of violating. david corn, i understand you have a political fallback for the week. what do you got? >> jim jordan. republican member of the house of representatives from ohio. he wants to be speaker of the house if republicans continue control of the house after the coming elections. he also has been in the news for something much different than politics in the last couple weeks. he stands credibly accused of having been a wrestling coach at ohio state university in the '80s and '90s when the athletic department's doctor was abusing student athletes. and the accusations against him from athletes who worked with there, worked with him at the time, student athletes, is that he knew about this, and he did nothing. he, of course, says he had no clue. but we're up to 10, 11 or so student athletes who've said he must have known. it was impossible for him not to know. rather than falling back and coming up with a credible response to that, he's decided to move ahead and try to become speaker of the house while also, and this is a double dip here, promoting all sorts of crazy deep state conspiracy theories about the trump/russia scandal and interest declared, two of them involve me. i'm asking jordan to take a step back and deal with that controversy rather than trying to lead the house of representatives. >> david, you make very important points on a story that deserves attention. it almost makes me wonder whether time magazine got it wrong about you. >> well, my mom thinks so. >> yeah, and yet you're not top 100 at the end of the day. that's just a fact. >> that is true. neither are you. >> see, if you leave a long enough pause, anything can happen. neither are you. david corn gets the last burn of the segment. my special thanks to david, ibtihaj and patrisse for this fallback friday. up ahead, new legal heat on donald trump. his long time lawyer turning on him. and we are getting into our first ever edition of state of mind with tony schwartz next. what about him? 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♪ insurance. that's kind of what we do here. any paint can change the way a room looks. but only one can change how it feels. century, from benjamin moore, is the first-ever soft touch matte finish paint. its revolutionary texture unlocks 75 unprecedented colors, each with exquisite depth and richness. it's a difference you can see, touch, and feel. that's proudly particular. century. only at select local paint and hardware stores. today wraps up two of the most stressful weeks of trump's presidency, the international condemnation of his bizarre embrace of putin, followed by one of of his most loyal fixers saying trump did okay the meeting at the trump tower. those two stresses are linked. they pose intricate questions. which brings us to our new segment with a special friend of "the beat," tony schwartz. this is called state of mind. and we aim to get to the root of some of the bigger issues in our society here. now, many people hesitate to admit how stress and emotion impact decisions, especially if they fear it could look weak or irrational. tony schwartz argues that kind of blind shot is even larger for trump, tony says, who insists he has a flawless temperament. >> i have a great temperament. >> i have a great temperament. >> i have one of the great temperaments, a winning temperament. we need a strong temperament. and that's all it is. >> that temperament being tested, and trump's own aides are coddling it at times, trying to limit the news and negative info that reaches him. schwartz writes trump's grip on reality will continue to diminish as he faces criticism, accusation and criminal indictments. what happens to a leader who embraces this kind of bunker mentality to avoid stress? is trump seeking kind of a narrow minded cocoon of a tortured snow flake deluding himself to believe that all critics are just haters, and accountability is what his enemies want? i'm reminded of aubrey drake graham once said, i got enemies, got a lot of enemies, got a lot of people trying to train me of my energy. we turn to tony schwartz. ceo of the energy project. drake is known as an emotional celebrity. and the problem in that line, which reflects a real thing, is overidentifying any criticism as trying to destroy you rather than deal with it. does trump have that problem also? >> this piece i have done with the psychiatrist bandy lee in politico today is really about the notion that people who have trump's psychological disposition, bandy's interviewed a thousand of them in her role as a forensic psychiatrist, have this vast emptiness that is filled only by external praise and adulation. when they begin to feel that they're not getting enough of it, it's a catastrophic, internal experience. that's what trump is having right now. >> what's striking about that is we often talk about how different he is from other presidents. that's something other politicians have. when i worked in congress, you would see them, maybe they didn't make it all the way to the white house, people who were anti-social, sometimes tortured and seemed to need to be on the go, in the action, getting praise while maybe other parts of them were, as you put it, less full. >> that's why they say washington and hollywood have a lot in common. the people who seek most intensely don't have a sense of themselves absent the external world applauding. >> right it's like these freak who is want to work on tv every day or host a tv show. >> it's thard to manning. people -- people i don't really -- i haven't even met those people. >> what is wrong with your psyche in your life if you need to be on tv, hosting a tv show every day? it's something i have wondered. they have no self awareness either. turning back to donald trump, let me play for you how he dealt with a security analyst in his previous life. take a listen. >> i love security analysts. >> the shareman of the company that i work for was faxed a letter written by donald trump. what he wanted was a public apology or the firm to dismiss me immediately or i would institute a major lawsuit against the firm. they escorted me to the door. i have been a security analyst for over 50 years. >> why is that public apology so important. >> who apologized? >> donald trump demanding, he wants a public apology, why? >> because he is so thin skinned. if a person criticizes him, he feels like an inner explosion. march what og foon -- imagine what he is feeling right now as these walls start to close in on him, as the people who have been most loyal to him start to turn on him, it has got to be a feeling of extraordinary fear that is unacceptable to him because he can't stand the experience of weakness or vulnerability. and so what he does in its face is to act even more aggressively. >> does that make him obsessive and emotional in dealing with these open legal probes? >> yes, indeed. he's clearly an obsessive guy. he is obsess ive sometimes strategically, sometimes reactively. to give you an example of the obsessiveness strategically is when he says no collusion, no collusion, no collusion. what is he doing? he is hoping, he has learned that if he repeats it often enough, even if it is totally false, visibly false. people, or a significant number of people will start to believe it. >> state of mind, state of mind, state of mine is what we will take from that. this is a series and we are going to try to go a little bit deeper. tony schwartz, i appreciate you being a part of it. >> thank you. >> up ahead, moments that have left many of us speechless. also a. practicing note of course i will be in more rachel maddow tonight on msnbc. 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