Coverage of national and international news, including breaking stories. to roll the dice and gamble. i think the question of a pardon is huge. and intimidating to the whole process here and the president is wise to step back and not do that because the act of that and interesting to see. the mueller team can look at that as destructive conduct. in these circumstances what is best for him and, honestly, the best thing to do is not to plead but to cooperate, as well. >> reverend al sharpton who is one of the few people that michael cohen has reached out to to discuss where his head is at but right now where his head is at but what about exactly is going to happen. he has come to an agreement with the prosecutors in the southern district of new york. that is not the mueller investigation. we need to figure out what role the mueller investigation is going to have in this agreement. in the end, this all has to be presented to a federal judge, which we believe is happening in one hour from now. he has to say what he is pleading guilty to. >> this may be part of the strategy of the government in this case. hitting him with a campaign finance violation alone may not have induced cooperation because the penalties are relatively light. but investigate bank fraud and investigate tax fraud and tax perjury and if you're involving millions and millions of dollars, you're looking at serious sentientiencing guideli and that is going to agree to plead. that is the kind of pressure it puts on a defendant like cohen, if he ends up entering a plea. on the other hand, in the world of cooperation, life gets a lot better. if he cooperates and pleads guilty and gets a reduction, if he provides substantial assistance to prosecutors, the benefits are literally limitless. he can go down substantially and make the difference between decades in prison. but here's something to really think about. if he is cooperating, the entity that decides what is substantial assistance is and always is the u.s. attorney. so, it often arises that a defendant might say i'm telling you everything i know and the prosecutors are responding, hey, you know what, we don't think it is enough. so, there's a tremendous incentive for a defendant to tell them everything he knows and as defense attorneys like me say an incentive to maybe make some stuff up if they don't have enough. >> liam, let me ask you this, some bank and tax fraud stuff involved in this, that may be the core of it. stuff that most people don't pay too much attention to with respect to michael cohen and may not even care, what he did on his tax papers. but here is what people are interested in. i want to go back to a finance contribution to or trying to silence somebody for donald trump? >> that is correct, ali. and i think what the prosecutors are doing here is often a common tactic which is we build the case on the most, the easiest made case. which here might be the tax fraud and the bank fraud. you're ready to roll the dice on the campaign finance violations. so clear on the first two cases that the defendant here, if it's true, michael cohen, pleads guilty to the whole thing and then he's able to give you the inside scoop on those campaign finance violations. who knew, who was involved. and that's really the key part. those violations are so hard to prove because it's so much wrapped up in the intent of the individuals. and the private conversations that they've had. often you need an inside source to give you that information. in that instance, if michael cohen decides to coop raerate, could be that person. >> liam, stand by, danny, stand down and he would be the one to set up a meeting with donald trump and us and we would go back and forward, usually not resolving anything. so, i knew him and he was no stranger to me. and he tried to be the mediator and the fix-it guy for donald trump on civil rights or social justice issues. so, when he reached out to me right away i'm like, suspect because i'm saying, why is he reaching out to me a critic of the president unless he's sending the signal that he is ready to do certain things. because he didn't really devulage what he was talking about. i wanted him to tell me whatever he wanted to tell me. >> was he okay with having this discussion? >> i told him, i said i don't do anything privately and i said i'm going to tweet we had the meeting and he said, so am i. and he tweeted that i had breakfast with reverend al and we talked about him doing what is right for the country and him doing what is right for his family. i think what is interesting about this, i agree with the two guests you have that if it's campaign finance, clearly, there's going to be the question of did he do this per the knowledge of the candidate or others. and what did he know because i remember his office was right near donald trump's office in the trump towers. what does he know about the president knowing about any meetings with russia? and did he have knowledge before? he was right there, which goes right to what mueller's investigating. this could get very interesting. you don't know. but it could be very interesting. >> on july 27th, by the way, after it was reported that cohen would tell robert mueller's special team that the president knew in advance of the june 9th, 2016 meeting that donald trump jr. had with the russian lawyer and a whole bunch of other people. donald trump sent this out. he tweeted, i did not know of the meeting with my son, don jr. sounds to me like someone is trying to make up stories in order to get himself out of an unrelated jam. taxi cabs, maybe. he even retained bill and crooked hillary's lawyer. gee, i wonder if they helped him make the choice. the issue here, rev, is that michael cohen was signaling to you and george stephanopoulos that his family and his country come first, which sort of meant not donald trump who he said he would take a bullet for. donald trump was quick to react that michael cohen was ready to talk to people. >> making allegations, if he is now covered whatever indiscretions he may have done, again, i don't know what they all may be. if he's covered them in a plea, then, the president can tweet whatever he wants, that's going to be dealt with in terms of the judge and the prosecutors. the question is, is there anything there he can expose the president to? and then we have a real question of where mueller goes and doesn't go forward. if, in fact, for example, i do not know this, he says yes, donald trump did know about the meeting with the russians, was seeking to have his son and others get information that would interfere with the campaign, that goes right down the street towards collusion. and if he knew about the stormy daniels stuff. so, i think michael cohen could be a very, very pivotal person as we go forward the next few weeks. >> just to bring you up to speed. we do not know exactly what michael cohen is going to say, but we do believe he will be appearing before a judge. he already turned himself into the fbi. there is a hearing scheduled for 4:00 this afternoon in federal court in southern manhattan in which, if there is a plea agreement, michael cohen is going to have to plead guilty to something. now, what we do not know whether it is a straight plea deal and by saving the government a trial, he perhaps gets a reduced sentence. that is something the judge would have to agree to. what we don't know is whether there is an element of cooperation and, reverend, that is the interesting part. you and i are both interviewers and ministers and you talked to a lot of people. what do you think was happening there? was michael cohen trying to come clean? was he trying to send a message to donald trump? what was the benefit of reaching out to a guy like you? you have never been on the same side of michael cohen? >> i left the regency saying whether he is sending a message to trump or he's sending a message to the prosecutors that i left trump land and that i'm serious about doing things. because stephanopoulos who he met with and hosting and also comes out of the clinton political world. and me who has marched on donald trump, you couldn't send more of a message to both sides than that. >> let's go to tom winter outside the federal court now. he has been covering this since it broke. tom, we're getting new details on the 4:00 p.m. michael cohen hearing. what do you know? >> ali, my understanding is this will last an hour, perhaps an hour and a half. michael cohen will say exactly what it is that he did and what he is pleading guilty to today. that is kind of our basic understanding at this point. obviously, once we get inside of the courthouse and the courtroom, which is going to be held on the 20th floor of the building right behind me here, we'll get a little bit of a better sense of kind of the run of the proceedings. but at that point, we will know exactly what it is that he is pleading guilty to and what, if any, sort of cooperation he may or may not be giving to prosecutors here moving forward. that is still a little bit fluid. this is kind of a little bit of a unique situation, ali. we have all the court paperwork and all been unsealed and i could give you a full run down before we head into this hearing and today we're a little bit in the dark. so, that's kind of what we expect at this point, but, again, should last at least an hour and perhaps an hour and a half and as soon as we get the details, danny will providing the great announcement. >> you have to go to court right now? >> but i'll be in court. i'm literally going to go right in after this. we don't have communications in court, as soon as i come out i'll give you the details. >> when i saw you leaving the building, which looked like 15 minutes ago. i don't like you being too far from me on these things. i want to be clear with what the options are. the options that are happening, michael cohen pleads guilty in exchange for some sort of reduced sentence or michael cohen said that he has a cooperation agreement. is that correct, tom? >> yeah. so, mike sense is that he's going to plead guilty to a series of charges around the bank fraud and perhaps a campaign finance fraud and at that point we will find out what, if any, of the details of cooperation may be. but a quick reminder that if he does cooperate, it's not necessarily with just prosecutors here in new york, it can be for any federal investigation. that's typically how it goes at that point. >> go into court, we will talk to you as soon as you are out. tom winter is going in to figure out exactly what is going on. we have full coverage on this. we're going to be back with more on this hearing and it will start in we think about 20 minutes. also big news of the day. trial of paul manafort. first trial for robert mueller and the special counsel investigation. jurors today had a question, what happens if they can't rean agreement on one of the charges. we'll have a look at what that means, next. are you done yet? 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do we think they sorted most of it out and they're stuck on one? >> let's do the best we can with going to the videotape, which is to read the words from the transcript. >> okay. >> of the jury's question submitted to the judge. if we cannot come to a consensus on a single count, how should we fill in the jury verdict form for that count? and what does that mean for the final verdict? put that altogether and it seems pretty clear, they're saying to the judge, we're hung up on one of the 18 counts. now, i agree, it's not 100% absolutely finally definitive, but that sure seems to be the most sensible reading of what the jury sent in this note they sent to the judge and the rules are pretty clear. the judge can accept what is called a partial verdict. >> right. >> but before he did that, he said to the jury as judges always do in cases like this, are you sure? go back and try again. that was at about 11:00, 11:30 this morn p tsin morning. the jury had lunch and they are doing what the judge said is trying to reach a verdict on still one count and they haven't fallen apart on the others. we can't be sure about that. we just get these snapshots when they send in a question. if they try again and say, judge, we're just never going to get there on this count. then what he would do is accept the jury's verdict on the counts they do agree on, presumably 17 and declare a mistrial on the 18 t cou 18th count. >> i try to go through the counts as the one stand alone and often in a case you can say here is the thing that the prosecution didn't do as much on. it's hard to tell. as the 18 counts break down, there is a group of nine that are sort of similar and a group of five that are similar and a group of four that are similar. so, it's not clear which one they're talking about, right? >> okay. so we have been talking about facts and we get into the realm of sheer speculation. it seems a reasonable guess. the tax counts are pretty much the same. every year the government said he failed to pay taxes on all his income. the numbers change from year to year, but the underlying conduct doesn't. that's five counts. four more counts failing to file, tell the government he had overseas foreign bank accounts, foreign bank accounts they're called. when you get into the last count, the bank fraud counts, the conduct is different in each case. in some cases, he failed to tell the banks that he had outstanding mortgages, other debts they didn't know about or that he lived in a residence in new york that he was actually renting or gave them misleading information. in each of those counts, the conduct is different and the defense has been on those bank fraud counts that, you know, he's a busy man and traveling around and he eventually got it right. don't hold him responsible for what may turn out to be misleading statements in the beginning. if i had to guess, if you're asking me to guess, that is where they are probably hung up. >> pete, i ask you to guess every day, you must be hungry or tired. pete williams, always great to see you. probably going back to him very shortly, too. the developments in the manafort and cohen cases come as president trump and his legal team are wrapping up. rudy giuliani tells nbc news it is time to put up and they have nothing but a bunch of irrelevant charges. no final decision has been made but an interview between the president and mueller, quote, does not look good. then in an exclusive interview with reuters, trump echoed giuliani's concern of possible perjury trap and raised this eyebrow claim on the investigation. i can go in and i can do whatever. i could run it, if i want. i'm totally allowed to be involved, if i want to be. so far i haven't chosen to be involved. i'll stay out. with me now, nbc news hans nic nichols. i don't know what you make of that. any response from the white house, first of all, about the michael cohen plea deal which we're expecting in half an hour. >> radio silence from the white house. they just announced, ali, they're going to do an in town travel and the president slated to travel later today. that's important because it takes away another opportunity for president trump to go to the cameras and talk. that's not going to happen on departure. he's not leaving by helicopter. he's going to be motorcading down to andrew's air force base. in the morning an opportunity for the president to invite the cameras in and roundtable and so far it has been silence from the white house and they could just be waiting to get the details on what michael cohen is pleading to. just like all of us, really want to get into what sort of offer was made, what he's offered to give in return. white house is just as hungry for that information, i suspect, as we are. so, so far, ali, no official updates from the white house. we will hear from the president tonight at 7:00. he has a rally in west virginia. >> you know, the president's team is doubling down on the attacks on the manafort, i'm sorry, on the mueller investigation and the attempts to undermine that with rudy giuliani in over drive. any sense from the white house whether they think that is actually working or not because it's kind of getting more ludicrous by the day. >> you have to define which part of the white house thinks it's working. rudy giuliani thinks it is working. we saw the language he had with kristen welker earlier today. you've seen from the giuliani faction from the president's legal team is an increasingly hostile posture towards the mueller investigation. so in contradiction and not at all in the same prese iece of w you have seen before where they seem to be cooperating and that very cooperation that led the white house counsel, don mcgann, to sit down and reportedly spend 30 hours with mueller's team. so, it seems like there is some cross currents within the white house. it's very aggressive and assertive and they are not afraid to really sort of challenge bob muller and use some hot language, ali? >> hans nichols at the white house. a lot of moving parts from the white house and from the federal court in southern manhattan and from court in alexandria, virginia. joining me now, former new york congresswoman who voted to in peach president nixon. her new book is out this october. also with us, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official chuck rosenberg and important to note, liz, you were also a district attorney. a lot of ground being covered here. to giuliani's comments about they have nothing on donald trump, it sort of belies something, even those of us who are not lawyers understand how a case like this is built. it's built from the outside in, from the ground up. >> from the ground up. put up or shut up. the fact that mueller has returned 32 indictments or gotten guilty pleas. individuals and three companies. we don't know whether it's trump being investigated by mueller. mueller brought these charges against russian agents and russian military officers. we don't know what other russian agents, russian military officers are. does giuliani really want the american people to have an investigation into foreign espionage, foreign interference shut down? i mean, that's just beyond belief. it's ludicrous and it's stupid and it's anti-patriotic and anti-american. i don't know what he's talking about. i think they're just desperate. >> chuck, at this point, the president never seems to sort of rely on that information that just was brought up. that part of robert mueller's charges to determine interference into the u.s. election and he has come up with lots of indictments and lots of evidence of some form of interference. at this point, i'm not sure who rudy giuliani thinks he is listening to. clearly some people are listening to him and suggesting that it hasn't achieved anything. >> i'm not listening to mr. giuliani and the congresswoman is spot on. put aside all the charges and all the plea agreements he negotiated, look at the russian military intelligence indictment. those are extraordinarily compelling documents because they lay out in more detail than you normally see in an indictment of this type what the russians did in our election. and that's exactly what mueller was asked to do. figure out what happened. and, so, i'm not, don't count me as somebody who pays much attention to what mr. giuliani says. >> a lot of people are not paying attention to a lot of these sorts of things. but yesterday the president said something about i could run this investigation myself, if i wanted to. and i said something that made a lot of people think i was a republican because it said it sends a chill down my republican spine. this is a line, i think, the president crossed last night in suggesting that he can judge himself. that is a fundamental legal principle that we have in this country that you don't get to judge yourself. >> correct. the president took an oath of office and that oath of office requires him to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. that means the criminal laws and civil laws. there is nothing that allows the president to determine the investigation of him, for him to pick his own prosecutor and pick his own investigator and pick his judge, pick his jury and make himself innocent. that's not the rule of law that we have. for him to say that shows that he has not the slightest inkling of what our constitution requires and what our democracy is. it's very dangerous. because, obviously, they're getting so desperate. the news s is nightightening. if cohn engages in a cooperation agreement. donald trump is in real, real trouble. heavy duty trouble. deep water potential criminal trouble. >> as much as donald trump wants to continue to tell everybody that these guys are not central, will have information on that june 9th meeting. paul manafort was in that meeting. and her new book "the case for impeaching trump" set to be released in early october. and chuck rosenberg. thank you. xhnchlthsi coming up, include a campaign finance violation charge. the former fec commissioner joins me next to talk about the timing and the circumstances around the payments involved and what they say about the case. now starting at $7.99. gillette. the best a man can get. campaign payments or payments related to something that happened some time ago in the weeks before an election. in your opinion, would the evidence that we have, including a bank draft receipt, you believe that this is fairly obviously a campaign related? >> it seems pretty clear that it is, given in particular stormy daniels' affair many, many years ago, as you said. and suddenly right before the election money is funneled through cohen's llc to keep her quiet. it seems that there's a very strong likelihood that it was done to help the campaign and to influence the election. and because of that, it would be considered a contribution. and not only is it it in excess of the contribution limitations, which is $2,700 per candidate per campaign, but it also was not disclosed as a contribution. so those things are an issue. and interestingly, this is, you know, you haven't asked this question, but following up on what was discussed in the previous part of your show. because the money was funneled through an llc, we don't even know what the source of that money was. whether it could have come from russia, for example. we don't know. and so there is an implication of about that, as well, because the llcs have been used previously, not necessarily in the trump campaign, but previously in campaigns to funnel foreign money. >> this is a good point. i'm glad you brought that up. and, you know, one of the things that people talk about with a federal election commission violation is that they're often not pursued and they're often not, they don't have strict penalties. you have said, i know in march when you were talking to us at nbc, you said the fec is understaffed, particularly from an enforcement perspective. >> yes. it is understaffed, absolutely. and that was purposeful. but there are other reasons why matters are not enforced and that's because there's a stalemate on the fec because investigate something or to regulate many of the violations go unpunished. and actually even not investigated. but, this is an investigation that was done by a u.s. attorney's office, which is also a good thing compared to all the fights about mueller. this is not mueller who is going after him. >> this is an important point. so, does the southern district of new york, the southern prosecutor in new york have the ability to pursue this without the fec having to bring the case? >> yes. yes, absolutely. he does. so, it is, i think, a really positive outcome if there is a campaign finance settlement with respect to this. because a lot of important information will come out that may be useful for other campaign finance violations that have already potentially occurred in the trump campaign. >> ann, thank you for joining us. ann ravel former fec commissioner. i want to take a quick break and come back. michael cohen's story on the books and paul manafort's jury. stay with us. and zero minimums to open an account. we have fidelity mutual funds with zero minimum investment. and now, only fidelity offers two zero expense ratio index funds directly to investors. because when you invest with fidelity, all those zeros really add up. ♪ so maybe i'll win, saved by zero ♪ all those zeros really add up. moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis was intense. my mom's pain from i wondered if she could do the stuff she does for us which is kinda, a lot. and if that pain could mean something worse. joint pain could mean joint damage. enbrel helps relieve joint pain, and helps stop further damage enbrel may lower your ability to fight infections. serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma other cancers, nervous system and blood disorders and allergic reactions have occurred. tell your doctor if you've been someplace where fungal infections are common. or if you're prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure or if you have persistent fever, bruising, bleeding or paleness. don't start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. since enbrel, my mom's back to being my mom. visit enbrel.com... and use the joint damage simulator to see how joint damage could progress. ask about enbrel. enbrel. fda approved for over 18 years. about the colonial penn program. here to tell you if you're age 50 to 85 and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three p's. what are the three p's? 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>> incredible day, ali. the manafort trial is continuing to deliberate. we saw a few of the jurors on a break a short time ago and i think they're back in the jury room now. that note suggesting to the judge that they were deadlocked on one count, but may have reached consensus on other counts is leading a lot of people around here to think that we might have some kind of resolution today. either a partial verdict or a full verdict. but it's getting late in the afternoon now and we're not hearing anything, so, it's quite possible that they'll come back again tomorrow. we just don't know. great american jury system at work, ali. >> we're all trying to guess and figure out what it all means but we don't really know. the fact is that they asked the judge, the judge called them into court and he only spent five minutes with them. so, he believes or hopes that they can keep on going until they get a verdict. >> that's right. they said essentially, look, what do we do if we can't come to consensus on a single count and how do we fill out the jury form and how does that affect the final verdict? he gave them an allen charge, a set speech. the judge gives the jury basically saying, you guys are it it, we're not better jury than you and they went back inside the jury room. >> all right, ken, we'll stay close to you on this one. ken delaney on the manafort verdict watch in alexandria, virginia. michael cohen once said he would take a bullet for president trump and now he is taking a deal. the district handling michael cohen joins me next to talk about what it takes to make a case like this. we're just minutes away from michael cohen's hearings. if your moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's symptoms are holding you back, and your current treatment hasn't worked well enough it may be time for a change. ask your doctor about entyvio®, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohn's. entyvio® works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract, and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. entyvio® may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. tell your doctor if you have an infection experience frequent infections or have flu-like symptoms, or sores. liver problems can occur with entyvio®. if your uc or crohn's treatment isn't working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio®. entyvio®. relief and remission within reach. i'm ray and i quit smoking with chantix. i tried to quit smoking for years on my own. i couldn't do it. i needed help. for me, chantix worked. it did. chantix, along with support, helps you quit smoking. chantix, without a doubt, reduced my urge to smoke. when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. some people had changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, agitation, depressed mood, or suicidal thoughts or actions with chantix. serious side effects may include seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking or allergic and skin reactions which can be life-threatening. stop chantix and get help right away if you have any of these. tell your healthcare provider if you've had depression or other mental health problems. decrease alcohol use while taking chantix. use caution when driving or operating machinery. the most common side effect is nausea. i don't think about cigarettes anymore. talk to your doctor about chantix. >> i need to open up a company for the transfer of all of that info regarding our friend, david, so that i -- >> give it to me. >> i've spoken to allen about how to set the whole thing up with -- from being -- yes. and it's all the stuff. [ overlapping speakers ] so i'm all over it. when it comes time for the financing -- you'll have to pay me in installments. >> i want to bring in the former assistant attorney in the southern district of new york, the district handling the michael cohen investigation. that recording was very -- i mean, michael cohen was articulating very clearly, he dropped the accountant's name and donald trump said something about paying cash on that tape and michael cohen said no, we can't pay cash. this is at the heart of this issue, right? the southern district of new york doesn't care that much about michael cohen's taxi medallion status. >> if indeed there is a campaign finance charge in this document cohen is about to made guilty to is enormous. all the other stuff is about his being a fixer. but this touches on the president directly. so that's a whole entire ball game change. >> i was talking to reverend al about the conversation when they had breakfast and michael cohen told him, my family and country is the priority. this is a guy who said i'll take a bullet for so and so. most people don't say that about anybody. he said he was the most loyal guy to donald trump. now he's going to make a deal. >> it's all about priorities. i've seen people who have gone to jail, gone to prison with young children at home. to me the telling moment with michael cohen is when he said publicly my family comes first. that couldn't have been a brighter red flag that he's ready to cooperate. different people have different priorities. if indeed his priority is his family, he will cooperate. >> was there a signal being sent when he talked to reverend al? the only thing that matters to michael cohen right now is the deal he's made with the southern district of new york. >> you need two. it's got to be mutual to get a cooperation deal in place. he made clear what change was in place. he went from i'll take a bullet, to now i'm ready. and the question is, is the southern district ready? we may have some answers at 4:00. the first thing i would like to see, is this a cooperation plea agreement or not. >> a cooperation deal versus a plea deal. >> there's a straight deal, no cooperation, and then a cooperation deal. if it is a cooperation deal, we'll have our answer. i suspect it's not going to be from the reporting i've seen. it looks like a straight plea deal. but that doesn't rule out cooperation. >> you were saying earlier today, one can emanate from a plea deal. >> you made to this, then we're going to spend the days, weeks, months proffering you, then turn it into a cooperation agreement and you may have to plead to more stuff. >> what michael cohen gets out of just having a plea deal, if that's what it is today, is that his sentencing will not be imposed today. >> no, he'll plead guilty today. if it is a straight plea deal, he'll get less jail time than if he went to trial, but he ole still get serious jail time. so that's kind of halfway. i think he's got to either fight it, which he's -- if he's pleading, he's not doing that. >> thank you. i really appreciate it. as we approach the top of the hour, michael cohen is expected to appear in court. i want to reiterate the caution we started this hour with from our sources. that is, nothing is done until a judge signs off. the implications oh of what comes out of this are crucial for this white house and this president and this nation. let's bring back danny cevallos at the lower court in manhattan. something is going to happen this is going to possibly change the future of the trump presidency and the mueller investigation. it is actually going to matter more than possibly anything that's happened so far. >> reporter: absolutely true. and what is so critically significant, and what we've only learned in maybe the last hour or so is we've gotten a little more certainty as to what michael cohen might made to. and irrespective of whether he has a cooperation agreement or he's just doing a straight plea for now and a we'll see with the prosecutors later is what crime he mads guilty to, if he mads. if he mads to bank fraud or fraud, these are things that were part of his life as a fixer. but that nexus, that connection to campaign finance law violations would be particularly interesting, because it would draw a connection between michael cohen and whatever campaign he was involved in, obviously the trump campaign. so it's going to be critical. cooperation may not be immediate. sentencing may be months, if not a year down the road. remember, sentencing, if he cooperates, will only occur if and when the prosecution is satisfied or ready to go forward with the sentencing. and then, whether or not they give that 5-k-1 motion, that substantial assistance motion, is in the discretion of prosecutors. so defense attorneys like me often find ourselves taking on the role of sales person to the prosecutors in the course of a cooperating witness agreement to assure them that the witness is cooperating, and sell the prosecutors on the cooperation of your client. because those prosecutors are very, very skeptical and very cautious about whether or not they're going to give that precious motion. >> and michael cohen has real stuff. he is the one person at least who knows where the money that went to pay stormy daniels came from. he is the one person at least who knows why karen mcdougal received money from the national enquirer. and he may well know what the president knew about that june 9th meeting in trump tower. michael cohen, whether he chooses to share it with the southern district of new york or not, knows a lot of stuff that's got donald trump very, very nervous tonight. danny, we'll stay close to you. this wraps up this hour for me. i will be back here at 6:00 p.m. eastern for "the beat." thank you for watching. "deadline: white house" with nicolle wallace starts right now. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we come on the air with breaking news. the president's former fixer and personal attorney michael cohen, the man who made messy things like extramarital affairs go away from donald trump, has entered into a plea deal with federal prosecutors. cohen has surrendered to the fbi ahead of a hearing scheduled to start any minute now, and we are awaiting a press conference from the deputy u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york where cohen's case was sent by special counsel robert mueller. to understand the significance of today's dramatic development on the president, remember that he called the raids on cohen's offices and homes an attack on the nation. >> so i just heard that they broke into the office of one of my personal attorneys, good man, and it's a disgraceful