Transcripts For MSNBC The Indictment of Donald Trump 2024070

america's most famou presidential statements. today, wow they are going to arrest me. can't believe this i happening. >> president trump, will you come speak to us >> the ex president surrenders he is arrested but. fingerprinted. criminally charged with 34 felonies in a manhattan courthouse. >> these are felony crimes i new york state no matter who you are. >> >> prosecutors say he ran a criminal scheme to conceal damaging information, unlawful activity from american voter before the 2016 election former president trump plead not guilty >> he is frustrated. he is upset. >> tonight the substance of the case. the people versus donald trump joy reid, -- already melbourne, alex wagner stephanie bowl all here for msnbc special coverage of the first ever criminal indictment of a forme president of the united states good evening and thank you for being with us here tonight i am rachel maddow here at msnbc headquarters in new york along with lawrence o'donnel and joy reid, and nicole wallace, and chris hayes we are going to be joined by more of our closest colleagues over the course of this evenin tonight, as part of the specia coverage we know that you have ever choice in the world tonight as to where to get your news abou this historic event. that makes us all the more grateful that you are here together with us tonight. so, here is how it works just got the transcripts we know exactly how it went. the clerk. calendar number one, indictmen 71543 of 2023, people of the state of new york versus donal j trump. appearances. prosecutor, christophe conwright for the people, your honor. and judge, with me are kathryn mccaw, matthew cullen julio, steven hough injured becky mangled. the judge, good afternoon. defensive oils good afternoon your honor. todd blanche for president trump. susan necklace for president trump as well. once again, joseph tacopina fo a president donald j trump the judge. good afternoon this matter is on fo arraignment. anything that we need to adjus for we conduct the remain? prosecutor not from the people, you honor. the judge. defense? defense lawyer no, your honor the judge will, well let's ramos trump. the clerk. donald j trump, the grand jury of new york county is file indictment 715 for three o 2023 charging you with crime of 34 counts of falsifying business records in the firs degree how do you plead to this indictment, guilty or no guilty defended mr. trump not guilty the one term donald trum presidency was of course marke by more than its share o turmoil and scandal. the president paying out a 2 million-dollar fraud settlemen related to this business, just as he took office. his family charity shut down a a fraud, and subjected t multimillion dollar fines. the president himself subjecte to a lengthy, high-profile special counsel investigatio over his campaign's links to a foreign adversary intervenin on his behalf as in the firs election the president impeached fo soliciting help from another foreign government for his reelection effort. then he was impeached again, which is a record for attempts to overturn the results when h lost his reelection effort up to, and including, an citing a thousands spawn mob attack on congress by hi supporters a physical attack on congres that left in its wake american injured, americans dead an more than 1000 americans criminally charged when congress launched a landmark investigation of that attack, we have specia coverage here on msnbc of th televised hearings of that investigation. -- the hearings live, we brough you primetime recaps each nigh they aired well, now, tonight, we are back for special coverage again, as history of the heaviest kind i made again this time, it is the arrest an indictment of the former president, the first time an president or former presiden has been subjected to th criminal legal process in this country. we know that coverage today, frankly, the coverage sinc last week, when we first learned this indictment wa coming we know that in a time, this has felt a bit like a circus it has at times felt a bit lik 100 per speculation that repor substance. but today, we got the substanc of the legal case against that former president, and it i interesting, it was surprising in some ways, it is legall both intricate and very blunt. and whether or not you are abl to watch the coverage of the presidents arraignment and arrest today as it unfolded, a a real spectacle, you ar forgiven if you didn't watch i as it unfolded, tonight, in th special coverage, we are her to cover what happened, bu prosecutors are charging him with and how we think this i going to work from here on out so, first, let's start with th charges. here is new york distric attorney alvin bragg >> earlier this afternoon, donald trump was arraigned on new york supreme court indictment returned by manhattan gran jury on 34 felony counts falsifying business records in the firs degree under new york state law, it i a felony to falsified business record with intended fraud and intent to conceal another crime that is exactly what this case is about 34 false statements made t cover up other crimes. these are felony crimes in new york state, no matter who yo are. we cannot and will not normalize serious criminal conduct. why did donald trump repeatedl make these false statements? the evidence will show that he did so to cover up crime relating to the 2016 election. donald trump, executives of th publishing company, amiri -- mr. cohen and others agreed in 2015 to a catch and kill scheme. that is, a scheme to buy and suppress negative informatio to help mr. trump's chance o winning the election as part of this scheme, donald trump and others made thre payments to people who claim t have negative information abou mr. trump. to make these payments, they set up shell companies and the mid-made yet more fals statements, including fo example, an ami, american medi incorporates, business records one of the three people that they paid to keep quiet was woman named stormy daniels less than two weeks before the presidential election, michael cohen wired $130,000 to stormy daniels's lawyer that payment was the hiding of damaging information from th voting public. the participants scheme wa illegal. the scheme violated new york election law, which makes it a crime to conspire, to promote candidacy via unlawful means the hundred 30,000 dollar wire payment exceeded the federal campaign contribution cap. and the false statements i ami's books violated new yor law. >> district attorney alvin bragg speaking today explaining the nature of the case, the nature of this 3 count felony indictment agains former president donald trump. now, the indictment itself i barebones. it lays out in just the fact man-less style each of the 3 felony counts that trump i facing, for allegedl falsifying business records, each one of those 34 count gets a better paragraph, eac paragraph gets about the sam information. the statement of fact, however that accompany has tha barebone tonight meant, that spells things out more like movie script but somewhere in between i this and this breaks it down, not like a list, and not like movie script, but more lik tiktok instructional video about making weird food usin things that don't at first glance seem equitable. prosecutor had three big posters behind him at his pres conference today laying it all out in a hard to miss term, in case you are a pictorial learner. this is one of those three posters. and you can see the headline there at the top, catch an kill scheme to influence the 2016 election. and as it shows in very simple terms, the allegation from the prosecutors here is that thi catch and kill scheme wa hatched in august 2015 at meeting at trump tower you will remember that trump announced his candidacy fo president in june 2015, a fe weeks later, in august 2015, according to prosecutors, he met trump tower with michael cohen, his lawyer, and the embarrassingly named david pecker, ahead of a company tha owns the national inquirer's supermarket tally. because i met years old, i can't say packer without laughing, so have to come up with your weird euphemisms - sentence structure to avoi saying it -- >> it is an objectively funn name >> it's an amazing part of the story. >> i apologize i should be bigger than this i just turned 50 and i can't hear sentence without the word packer in it without - any way. after this meeting, -- the national enquirer guy, a we will call him, agreed t help with trump's campaign saying that he would act as th eyes and ears for the campaign by looking over negative stories about trump an alerting michael cohen befor those stories were published the national enquirer guy also agreed to publish negative stories about trump' competitors for the election so that is what prosecutor spelled out today in the statement of facts about thi august 2015 meeting, where the scheme was hatched what they say to the court i the statement of facts is that the scheme paid off first with a story we had all forgotten it paid off first with a trump tower dorm in who was making allegations, apparently, the trump had filed third a chil out of wedlock according to prosecutors today the national enquirer compan paid the storm and $30,000 t keep quiet about tha allegation, without even investigating if it was true it just paid him $30,000 regardless of whether it was true, in order to keep his mouth shot ahead of th election interestingly, prosecutors the go out of their way later in the statement to tell the cour that the company eventually di investigate the story, and decided that it wasn't, in fact, true i feel like reading it, it was nice of them to put that i their, in terms of donal trump's reputation but that doesn't change th fact that it is part of this alleged scheme to catch an kill a negative stories abou trump ahead of the election. the company did in fact pa this guy off to -- keep him quiet, so as to hel trump's chances in the election prosecutors also said toda that the company, the national enquirer company, also a boo that payment to the door man i their financial records, i such a way that was false an illegal. that ends up being important i just a moment. according to prosecutors though, the scheme, the catc and kill scheme, hatched between the guy whose name i embarrassed to say and donal trump and michael cohen, thi scheme paid off first with the german strain paid off next fo trump with the nationa enquirer company making anothe payment to keep another stor quiet, - trump in the election. the second instance it was 150,000 dollar payment to this woman, whose name is karen mcdougal in both of those instances prosecutor alvin bragg sai today that the book keepin around those payments, the payment of the door man, the payment to karen mcdougal, resulted in false business statements being made on the books of the parent compan that owns the national enquirer now, that ends up bein important to all of ou understanding here into th eventual fate of donald trum because that factor ends u being important to the crimes, the alleged crimes, bein charged against trump as felonies the contention from prosecutor today, which we did not know was coming in this exact way the contention from prosecutor today is that this overall scheme was a violation of ne york election law, because new york election law makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidacy by unlawful means. and what prosecutors said toda is that part of the unlawful means alleged here is that thi company paid off all these people with weird sex storie about donald trump and the recorded it in their busines records like they were buyin post-it notes or something they are saying that was a crime, that is why this was an overall criminal scheme unde new york law, that is why thes false business records tha trump oversaw and insisted upo can be charged as felonies that is why at least theoretically he should be facing jail time but, back to the scheme. first, we have the payoff to keep the dormant quiet then we have the tape payoff t keep karen mcdougal quiet, prosecutors say that there was -- keep quiet that of course, was stormy daniels, america sweetheart. as product secures laid out by this point in the scheme, th national enquirer company wa getting sick of throwing money down this filthy well so wha it came time in the last few days before the election to pa off yet another person to keep quiet with a weird sex story about donald trump, th presidential candidate, mr trump himself, and his own supposed business, they were left to take care of the money this time on their own, withou that much help from th national enquirer. that is where we got the storm daniels payment. that is where we got a deepl stupid, rob goldberg schem that was supposed to make it seem like they were doin something other than payin stormy daniels to keep quiet before the election, tha anybody who looked at it for more than ten seconds can tell that is what they were doing and that is where we got the enumerated receipts today, for 34 different allegedly false business records, including th additional aggravating factor, which is the detailed summar of how they structured the stormy daniels reimbursement payments to michael cohen to look like something other than reimbursement payments, so the could deceive and therefor cheat the tax man while also committing this other crime. and the deceit of the tax man, the alleged tax purpos restructuring of these payments, is again, as described b prosecutors, one of th attempted crimes tha prosecutors need to be able to point to so all of this all, o this, can be charged as felony instead of just as misdemeanor. one last point here. just not this up from the arraignment today here is how the lead prosecuto laid it up to the judge to kic off the arraignment toda basically, after trump pled no guilty he says this the defendant, donald j trump, falsified new york busines records in order to conceal an illegal conspiracy to undermin the integrity of the 201 presidential election and othe violations of election laws. beginning in about august 2016 the defendant agreed wit others to carry out an o lawful plan to identify an suppress negative informatio that could have undermined his candidacy for president. as part of that plan, a lawyer deployed by the trum organization made a comfort -- 130,000 dollar payment at th defendants direction the purpose of the payment was to avoid negative attention to the defendants campaign by suppressing information abou an allegedly sexual encounte between defendant and adul film actress after the election, defendan reimbursed alerts through series of disguised monthl payments that had the true nature of the, that hid th true nature of the payoff by causing a serious of false business records in the record of the trump organization here in manhattan, and even mischaracterized for tax purposes the true nature of th payment. defendant falsified these ne york business records with the intent to defraud, including the intent to commit another crime and to aiding conceal th commission of another crime. this office, he said, has long prioritized protecting the integrity of business record maintained here in new york. when those records are falsified in service of one of the crime, it is a felony. that is what this defendan did. when you falsified busines records in order to conceal lawful efforts to promote hi candidacy and that is why we are here and that is from the transcrip of the arraignment today lawrence o'donnell, watching this unfold today, i know yo went and put yourself in the middle of it - a little bit i did. it was a short walk from where i woke up to the courthouse. and i wanted to go there because from the start i believed it was going to be very tame day outside of the courthouse i never believed there was eve the slightest possibility of a big crowd. and i just wanted to go an confirmed that it turns ou yeah, what i was expecting i what happened. i think there were 100, mayb to be generous, 120 trum supporters out there to call them protesters woul actually be taking it a little further than the way the behaved. they were quiet, they were polite, i walked among the just waited right in and chatted with a few i don't think they watched thi network. i would not dress ca anchorman. so there was only one guy wh recognized me. and followed me around, yellin at me from behind. and, this is the important part, he try to get everyone there t join in in attacking me, and not one person what. not one. because that is who thes people really are. these are not violent, they go the thousand, already, arreste and put in prison, many of the thousand most violent trum supporters in the land they are not available and there was a lesson taugh to the rest of them, in that process, who might have this inclinations and it is new york by the way, donald trump sai alvin bragg shut down new york city his lawyer in court today told the lie that lower man in ha and was shut down, not a bit it was one brock that was shut down the police presence wa incredibly light and more flexible than i hav ever seen them in a gatherin of people. and this is a really, really important thing after januar 6th. really important thing donald trump asked for death and destruction today. he asked for it. he told him two weeks ago, you have got to come they didn't come to weeks ago. they didn't come and this small collection that came today were completely harmless the guy running around behin me, i couldn't make sense of what most of what he was saying, so i couldn't really address him. he just wanted to talk about m regina and i am serious i am serious that was his subject and i just figured out, -- try and convince him that don't have one would be trying to convince him joe biden wo the presidency so i never spoke to him and it was an otherwise completel pleasant encounter >> >> another beautiful day in lower manhattan. i have run into in parts of th street manhattan, i can't say can guarantee that wouldn' have eventually happened, just on any random day. you know what i mean >> exactly a normal day it was a normal day. >> i - vaginal today. so >> look at how it turned out let's go back in time and give parents a little warning befor the show tonight let's go back in time. -- it is a warning. he was videoing, so it might show up somewhere on the worldwide web somewhere. >> the thing i was thinkin about today, sort of independent of the circus, onc we got the indictment, there i a few things here. one is the facts are basically established. and i think, they are largel uncontested. there are a few new facts, pecker saying that he, the specific line that trump says, you know, if you can push this off until after the election maybe you don't have to pa because it doesn't matter. >> that is what -- >> so that, i don't know if we knew that before but largely, the facts are not to the question here the facts are established. there are the receipts -- so the facts are not really in dispute. everything in terms of the defense is going to be a big set of questions about law about federal preemption about the sort of, doing it as a conspiracy to further anothe crime, they don't charge conspiracy but basically doing this for the purposes of committing another crime the unlawful help. and the big thing that i jus thought of, watching him sit there, sullen in angry at th defense table, is, this is a guy who has acted lawlessly hi whole life, recklessly, with regards to the law he is one of the most notoriou litigants in the country, at suing and being sued, who ha never crossed the line fro civil to criminal law. and there is something sort of profound about tha distinction. i was thinking about thi social media meme about, wha is something that is class when wrecked folks do it and - stay drinking. you're at the country club, oh you, are sitting on the stoo drinking a 40. if you rob someone of thei iphone, you are in criminal la and. that is 1000 bucks and you could be charged with felony if you don't pay a contracto $20, 000, you are just in civi law went that is where you get your lawyers to figure it out this guy has spent his whole life not paying people committing law endless act that were on the civil side of things, where his lawyers coul threaten to sue, where he coul draw things out, where he coul settle he crossed over today into the criminal law land and criminal law land operates, traditionally, in this society on people who were the mos perilous and marginalized, and grounds them through arrangements like that suddenly, the guy who used t be the most powerful person in the world is sitting at that table, having been lawless his whole life he is now setting before a whole different kind o judicial - >> i think we kind of had very similar thought because, when i thought abou watching, this today and watching him, is that this i somebody who has always had, i you read mary trump's biograph of her family, what she talk about is the fact that donal trump has always relied on mor intelligent -- powerful men, to fix everything when it was his financial issue, his father would fix it. he would burn money, essentially throw it in th incinerator. the father would give him more they even had extra money from the fathers will because h took it from his siblings. the father's money fixed it. he lost 300 and $17 million of his inheritance, went deep i the whole. the courts fixed it -- roy cohen who could step in an fix it the courts always fixed hi problems he had michael cohen whose job was to fix this. you know and he had ami whose job was t fix this they agreed, these three entities agreed, don't worry all of the dirt in your bed, w will fix it. so when the dorman comes forward, give him 30 grand, fi it when the first woman karen mcdougal comes, no problem, we will fix it. then the third one comes along stormy daniels, we will fix it but then at some point the criminal justice system steppe in and said hey, michael cohen what was this long - oh you didn't tell the truth, t the bank felony and the feds came in and the next michael cohen then, at the last bit of thi filing today, in the narrative they talked about th intimidation campaign to get cohen to not talk. they talk about the fact tha cohen was told to just be smart, stick with us, we are good don't waver. >> you have friends in hig places >> you have friends in hig places but he ends up going dow anyway ami, second part of the plan they admit to the feds, this was about trying to fix th election so tua owed of the three parties went south on him. now, here's donald trump alone hugo lowe talked about havin covered it a long time, this i the first time had no one wh could fix it >> except all of those facts are established by the souther district of new york all the facts you just asserted, michael cohen's guilt and bein a patsy is a - live tv. he already confessed to that the facts are established. they are black and white they are in michael cohe sentencing -- hush money scheme to the two women, dorman guy isn't in there, but the two women mcdougal and america sweetheart, as you coined it there, th facts are not in dispute so when you see the lawyers, tacopino and the guy meant t sort of class at the legal team, you could just blur their face and replace them with cohen in 2016, with ruby during mueller with whoever defended amid impeachment one or impeachment to it is the same - in this case, the facts were established by his own executives and government. southern district of new york. >> the law is complicated. it is more complicated because it is not happening in the southern district of new york. that is the big sort of, the big hole in the middle of this whole thing, is that a guy wen into s t and wine pleaded with the facts that are here. and he did time for them there is a guy - >> - exactly. who is doing it. there is a person in division who shows up - but donald trump is a president, we know from jeffrey berman' account, southern district o new york, that bill burr hated the fact that they were doin it, he tries to unwind the - he chases berman out okay so, there is - you can't indict the president that is not going to happen. and then the presidency turn over and then it is joe biden's justice department -- district of new york, no here's the question. that is the hole at the center why is there no -- what i would submit, i don't know, i am just saying, ther is political calculation everywhere with all of this this idea of, alvin bragg is i politics, well, great. there is some calculatio happening about, are we goin to pick -- after the interview? >> it is political >> - the two of us were complaining in the wonderful office of nicole, how is it that thi prosecutor is still doing this job? it is the department o justice's job. -- fani willis. right. this was done in order t protect his campaign for president. to me, i have to say, the fact that this brother has to dea with it, and - pick up the pieces and fix the doj's lack of accountability and action, this should be a federal prosecution, doj dropped the ball >> let me just say, just a moment business here, then i will come to you i need to tell you that righ now the former president himself is making remark tonight from his home in florida. as far as we can tell, what we are prepared for here is thi is basically a campaign speech in which he is repeating his same - perceived enemies. it is just getting started so far he is just giving his normal list of grievances. we don't consider that necessarily newsworthy, ther is a cost to us as a new organization of knowingl broadcasting untrue things so, or i or deal with you is that we will monitor these remarks, if he does sa anything news worry, we will turn around and report on that right away but for now, just know that it is happening and we are not -- >> there is a michael cohe issue at the southern district of new york. former prosecutors in th southern district say that their method of, in a situatio like this, is that a witness like michael cohen has to tell them every bad thing he ha ever - in his entire life michael cohen refused to d that and so that a southern distric will not put on a case based o someone who refuses to do that full disclosure. i am glad to have lanny davi joining me at 10 pm, michael cohen's lawyer i will ask him about that. i'm not sure what they can say about. it but if michael cohen refuse to submit to the souther district processes for thi kind of thing, that is the reason why they could not have brought this case. >> we do also have though, i was sort of surprised to see this in the statement fact today, this recitation of a lo of things that are much more about forgive me, david pecker and american media, and th national enquirer, than th hour about michael cohen so yes, mr. cohen is a very bi part of the arrangements aroun four, example, the karen mcdougal payment, and certainl he is the main mover when it comes to the stormy daniel payment. but the overall scheme is very much as much about america media and david pecker as it i about mr. cohen. and that ends up being a interesting dynamic given th different types of immunit that were offered in different stages for different types o testimony, including fro weisselberg and from pecker. >> there's an argument to be made that the district attorne bag has a better prosecution o the facts then the feds do because he alone has the business records crime that is not a federal crime. that is not something that the would be able to bring in th southern district. so, it is tricky if michael cohen was a full an open, total disclosure cooperator in the southern district - still decided not to go forward, i don't get to, but i do understand why we are where we are now with bragg >> can we also make the note that this office, this da' office, prosecute this - all the time there's one sense in which the goose news about this is thi is a mundane business record crime that is not uncommon and it is not uncommon from this prosecutor so, his most recent victor against trump -- llc's make up the trum corporation was about business records and tax records, e cetera, so this is something that would happen to anyone. you want to talk about thi what happened -- this would happen to anyone -- >> as the bread and brother of a white collar crimes. >> i would say though, we keep coming, you end up coming back to this philosophical bedroc of what the law is what is the law? what is equal justice under law? this is the betting story of the entire trump era i think when you read this indictment, right, i think either - is defensive it is a bubble case. it is not a slam dunk, i don't think. they are going to have - >> it feel so much more soli to me today than it did before i saw this indictment, though. >> i mean, again on, the facts but on the - it is tricky >> you need to be able to prov that there were deliberately falsified business records falsified with intent fo corrupt purposes, and that the were falsified in order to conceal or facilitate whit collar crime today we got the recitation of the crime and the -- i didn't expect that much. i thought that with all th critique that this was such bubble issue in terms of the law that it would be muc fuzzier, it would be muc harder to explain, we will b spending three or four segment trying to walk people throug what the connection was to mak his fellow many, it is brunt >> alvin bragg leads on -- lean, on it -- that is one of the things he i looking to move to felony. >> one thing that is very clea is that if you file a business record for an expense in new york, new york is a very tough state to run a business. if you file a record sayin that this payment was meant fo a, and instead you took that money and went to disney world with that money, they will com for you. i mean, i am with you, rachel, in the sense that this is so straightforward. they created a shell company used that money to pay mcdougal then donald trump reimburses nine of those checks that came from his own funds the trucks are there you put them on screen these facts are not that squishy to me. this seems like straightforward business records fraud case it is just that it is a felony because it was furthered o this other crime, which feel like it is campaign fraud. >> the facts are there but the law question - >> that question is a big one. they are going to contest on that, obviously. >> act interject again lawrence o'donnell apparentl has a job the of to go to. -- 10:00 show tonight after thi is over. -- i can't ever tell it again >> you must. >> no, but the video might still be - you might see this video somewhere on the worldwide web of the guy yelling to me about that thing that is simply, i just couldn't come up with a thing to say about it. >> what a time to be alive i america. what a 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us. and your marriage survived that? you can almost feel the drag when people walk by with their phones. oh i can't hear you... you're froze-- ladies, please! you put it on airplane mode when you pass our house. i was trying to work. we're workin' it too. yeah! work it girl! woo! i want to hear you say it out loud. well, i could switch us to xfinity. those smiles. that's why i do what i do. >> i'm not going to go chapter that and the paycheck. and verse into anything bu what i will say is that believe -- for a couple of months, th investigation, in my view, it' not concluded. -- the conduct, in particular that is the basis for th charges today. since that time we have ha more evidence made available t the office, an opportunity t be with additional witnesses so as i said earlier, i have been doing this for 24 years i don't bring cases prior to a thorough, rigorous investigation. now having done so, the case has been brought >> i do not bring cases prio to a thorough and rigorous investigation. but now having done so, th kiss has been dropped brought. -- i want to bring into our conversation our colleague cor malphurs, host of the beach, a msnbc chief legal correspondent, also with list throughout th night tonight, andrew weissmann, who is of course when th senior prosecutors on robert mueller's special counse investigation. he also served as fbi genera counsel, also crossed than christian, who is a veteran of the same manhattan distric attorney's office that brought these felony charges against the former president today he's a former special assistan da from that office. thank you all to our legal firepower here for being here. and join catherine, let me jus with you guys. we have been pontificating ove here at the table here as if w are lawyers. and we absolutely are not. have we gotten anything wrong, or is anything important tha you think we are missing in terms of understanding th law here and what we learned >> well, it's going to start b saying i thought we are at the children's table because obviously this is the adults - but, with all due respect, i will say that i didn't think there was anything wrong i actually wanted to maybe focus everybody on an issu that is sort of forward-looking. because one of the things that -- interesting was the timefram going forward. so we are in april and the next state that th court set is december. the court made a point o saying that is a considerabl amount of time and it is true that state case are obviously a little bit slower for various reasons tha a typical federal case but tha is still quite some time and there were sort of two point that you could make from that one is that it is definitely a possibility that there will be what is called a superseding charge that is that the financial investigation at the da' office, which by all account is still ongoing and was talke about by the a vance, th former da -- on this network on sunday, tha that could be a reason that yo didn't see the distric attorney really pushing for faster date. because it was quite some time and by the same token, you didn't see donald trump, if he was innocent, saying, i want a immediate trial. i have been on a case like that 20 years ago that old i was in a case with arthu anderson, where were, when w showed up the first day, are there anderson said, we want a speedy trial with a matter of speaking couple months, we were on cour on trial because they wanted to clear their name at that case so on the one hand, you didn't have donald trump saying you know what, i am innocent in th sense that i want to prove i to the public. on the other hand, it wa assigned to me that the da was not pushing for a faster trial meant they may have somethin else up their sleeve >> catherine, when you are looking at these discussions again, you are the expert, you have been there inside thi prosecutor's case, you brought this charges today mr. something that you saw today that you either think we are getting the won way around or that you saw differentl than is generally bein observed >> nothing wrong but i will be the want to sa that donald trump is innocen until proven guilty. so i'll put that out there these are allegations. i want to go to the statemen of facts that you so clearly said it was like the aha moment the statement of facts, th roadmap that is going to prove mr. trump's intent to defrau and his intent to commit o conceal another crime. so it was very important, when i first heard that they do testing in a fact that the didn't understand, then of course i read them and then that is basically their roadmap. that is what they are saying this is how we are intend to prove his guilt by under reasonable doubt so it was very important at th include that statement of facts because you have the ring fo felony counts and they are jus the elements in the dates. but it isn't really give you the meat of the case and the statement of facts >> looking at the relationship between the indictment statements, the rubble statement of the distric attorney where you explain wha is going on, with pressley fro the district attorney's office as well, laying it out i layman's terms and then that statement affect the kathryn ascribing, they all sort o told a story in a slightly different way. do you think, as ally audience here, and ices hosts trying to understand it, that we are getting right? >> i think we are getting it right. i think if anything there is a tendency to underestimate ho much information we got. i would love that if i wer practicing on this case, day to sift through it all we got over 60 pages, if you just count the transcript from the proceed today, which i'm not read, and the semi speakin indictment what comes through most and wh this was a terrible day fo donald trump is that there was a lot of expectation that this was going to be abou essentially payments to on woman and that is going to fee like sex, lies and videotape in fact, it looks more lik tabloid watergate. and i think what comes through here will be really importan that - too close to all that innard of it, you remember mr. pecker we know about mr. cohen, w have interviewed each of them. this was bigger than that, according to the da, the defendant has writes, th defendant's -- da saying. he is saying this is tabloid watergate. everything that you are saying that we were told we knew, i was small, we are nino but this he knew about what? new the links that and the extent of a corporate, secre lying, now federally convicted plot to mislead the american public, to hide things tha which might have affected thei vote, and do so in a manne that is already convicted crime. that is bad for donald trump that is not, as one liar put i outside the courthouse, boiler plate. that is your boiler plate, through your broiler played ou the window you have a blood poorly played case you have that will appoint life it is not everyone's life. it is not how elections around now, the real watergate ha bigger things, it obviously ha nixon in the white house as an incumbent, et cetera but i do think that the ke here, which they will presen to a jury, every crime, ever lie, every intent was about -- an election. >> and the cover-up. i'm sorry. someone close to the investigation told me last wee that it is not about what he did out of the election is different the voters it is about the cover-up he di from inside the oval office. -- sign from inside the oval. >> every allegedly falsified business record described in the indictment and used as a basis of a charge happens whil he is in - your of his presidency >> one more legal point that heel we all know - you can't have a corporation come ran to a bus, you can't have corporation just give ten k to you in public period full stop you >> can't donate water. so this is a regulated space there are reasons, i think i will be interesting to litigat in the trial or -- how the feds stopped and the d picked it up and we discusse all that but, that doesn't sto the prosecution. it would appear that the d here is acting, he says, t protect him or to accuse >> can i just ask a technica question so let's just say these were charges and misdemeanor. it seems like a slam dunk. these are all just business -- >> they were listed legal fees these are not legal fees this is reimbursement. >> these are misdemeanors. they are elevated to felon because they are with th intent to commit another crime the crime of unlawfully or conspiring to unlawfully aide candidate is unlawful, a crime in new york law, i know this i dumb question but i want to ask, is there a federal preemptio problem? is there a problem that he is candidate for federal office and not new york office with that theory? >> not according to the da -- page one paragraph to, they sa in writing, election laws an lying for tax purposes that is lost plural. their theory of the cases that what enhances it, we have al had our crash -- more than one election crime the da today as i reported spoke about examples of that that is their theory of th case and also, chris races this point, if this were only misdemeanors, big if, yeah, an in different contexts, someone might play out to avoid jail time but mr. weisselberg is i rikers for the h charges falsifying business records an other fraud. >> and cohen went to wheneve he went. >> all right we have much more special reca on the arraignment unrest of former donald trump today. stay with us jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... and forgot where she was. 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great. you know that loan has really worked wonders. that's what u.s. bank is for. and you're growing in california? -yup, socal, norcal... -monterey? -all day. -a branch in ventura? that's for sure-ah. atms in fresno? fres-yes. encinitas? yes, indeed-us. anaheim? big time. more guacamole? i'm on a roll-ay. how about you? i'm just visiting. >> and jay's reign of former u.s. bank. ranked #1 in customer satisfaction with retail banking in california by j.d. power. president donald trump, the on of the more interesting back and forth between both sides attorneys of both sides and th judge was about whether or not the judge might pose what is called a gag order, essentially, six rings on the speech of anybody involved in the case i the ways they talk about it. the judge said, in the arraignment today, although will not issue a gag order and not something close to the are corridor - i would encourage council on both sides to please speech or witnesses. found council speak to you client and everybody else yo need to -- please refrain from making statements that are likely t incite violence or civil unrest please do not engage in word or context that jeopardizes th rule of law, particularly as i applies to these proceedings i this courtroom again, and then you reiterate's, i ask you to please discus that with your client. tonight, donald, trump jus finished remarks at his home i florida, in which he called th prosecutor investigating him - a racist he called her a racist da. he called alvin bragg, the prosecutor who has brought these charges against him in new york today quote, criminal and he called jack smith special counsel who is investigating him at the federal level a quote, lunatic bomb thrower -- going out of his way to stay - of course, i don't believe i will have to tonight i, calling the prosecutors an animal, a racist, and a lunatic. i don't know whether it will g and. >> the question i guess is what does it take to get i gotta gorder remember roger stone makin threatening noises that th judge and not gettin sanctioned, really so i think donald trump ha lived in a universe where hi -- have gotten away with. it i would be my question. what will it take? >> there was a gag order on th roger stone case that was a federal trial and i was surprised to witness kathryn cushion is one of th -- apparently in new york criminal cases, it is very har to get a gag order more so than in federal cases. -- threaten objects so in this case, the drug is already warning, literally, da one of the arraignment, warning, he is very concerning language that he has there, he is warning -- posting a photo of the judge daughter i mean, it is already very ugly really not that. so for him to get out ther tonight, all guns blazing, privy belief speaking, it seem like that is going downhil fast >> rachel, rematerialize or te minutes. one of the reasons it took s long was they had to put tim into deal with donald trump' threats. as you mentioned, the judg said all that. he said look, i'm making thi as a request if i'm headed anything lik this in the future, i will hav to take a closer look. gag order, very hard especially for first amendment reasons. but you could be held in contempt of court. another smaller -- list today, they asked for him to not have to attend th hearing. the judge said no you. have to come and again if you don't come in new york they issue a benc warrant and people with guns from and repeating come ge you. that is what he had to be ther today. if you pretended that he's making this big trip but thi is all under compelled supervision of the court so i do think trump will continue to test this. georgia, there is an open case took out ten, so it is a littl different. but in new york if he goes too far, i sure his lawyers have warned him this. there are proceedings. you could be held in prison fo the day or longer. >> much more of our specia coverage of the ill rest and remit of former presiden today. alex wagner will join us whe we return. stay with us e down there? 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curious. and that's what makes it matter the most when they find it. the exact thing that can change the world. some say it's what they were born to do... it's what they live to do... trinet serves small and medium sized businesses... so they can do more of what matters. >> when donald trump announced benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. recently that he believed he was about to be arrested imminently, that was more than two weeks ago, he told his supporters that they shoul respond by protesting. he said quote, protest, take our nation back. they are killing our nation. we must save america protest, protest, protest! he's made those calls fo protest repeatedly about a week ago, he issue this dark warning. he said quote, potential death and destruction would occur if he were indicted he said would be quote catastrophic for our country he said quote, our country i being destroyed, as they tel us to be peaceful! republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene joine the former presidents calls fo a protest, announcing quote, protesting is a constitutional right and i am going to ne york on tuesday to protest we will not live in fear protest, protest, protest! the country is being destroyed how could they tell us to be peaceful when the country' coming to an end this is what it looked lik today when congresswoman marjorie taylor greene arrived outside the courthouse i downtown manhattan for her promised protest she got out of her big white car and was surrounded by whole lot of security and news media. and then less than ten minutes later she was back in the car. and then she drove off a onlookers sort of shoot he way. the few people surrounding her car did tell her to get out of their city, but other than tha law -- but as lawrence o'donnell wa telling you -- with more media than there wer actual protesters, certainly - this was the wide view outside the courthouse this morning. the crowd that was there numbered in the hundreds including tons of journalist interests, according to ne york and we see station, citin early police estimates, th report that the pro trump crow outnumbered the anti trump crowd a little bit you can see one trump supporte there waving a flag. it might be hard to spot but there are at least a few maga hats you can see here there are, give or take. it is easier to see th television nukes crews in th foreground that it is to see anybody else also outside the courthouse, people were gathered in suppor of the indictment tonight. people with signs saying thing like, we believe storm daniels. and effectively just celebrating the indictment but again, it was pretty sparse you can see some pro trump protesters outside of a grou of counter protesters, separating bite by crack - flag and sign waving i mean, we can walk through al the images that we have got, a the bottom line is nothing major to report, nothing massive. and that is sort of a dog that didn't bark story. but it becomes an important do that didn't bark story when yo consider that trump wa ordering his supporters that they better bark, but they better respond and they just didn't our friend alex wagner joins u now here as part of the specia coverage alex, i have to ask. your impression of this part o the story. i mean, i don't know tha anybody had like a down an dirty, true prediction as to what would happen, but not muc of anything happened >> yeah. death and destruction or jus really bad traffic i was struck by the sort o poetic irony of trump, wit such a creature of new yor city, being arrested, settin in motion the sort of wheels o history in new york city and that new york city is place where he is calling hi people to amass, to show thi force, and nothing happens and for someone who is takin so much of his reputation on the ability to be a master o the universe of this town, not even, in some ways more than washington d.c.. this is the place that created trump. aunt for him to come back to effectively his hometown, fo this moment, to edmond that is people show up and for it to b such a withering on response, wonder whether on the state of days, i'm sure there were a lo of things running through hi hat. but watching the cargo down th highway, going down the lowe manhattan, he knows this place like probably no other place i his life to be so resoundingly rejected by the big apple, has to pierc trump psyche in a way that maybe other things don't necessarily. >> you know, reverend sharpton talked about this. that donald trump is a creatur of new york city, but of queens and it was always a thing that bothered him that he didn't want to be th queen's developer like his dad he wanted to make it i manhattan. he buys the bond, teller department store, where by the way my godmother used to work, she was one of the few black women allowed to be a clerk ge on with taylor he rips down the beautiful artistic front supposed bond with taylor an the art community went crazy they said this man is a heat then he rips down this gorgeous artwork. he reconstructs it into this monstrosity, the architect community says trump tower was an strong city, so he always felt the sense of rejection, that your point, all, he eve wanted was to make it in manhattan. oh yeah ever wanted was to hav the -- be on the cover of newsweek. these were his things. the were his talismans of hi life >> 100 assent so there is a special indignity. and i think a specia humiliation to having to wal into that courthouse where the central park five had to wal through, while he is sayin kill him, put him to death he has to walk in that scene building with a black da tha he showers with the suspect, and he is in no control. the whole manhattan myth o trump in the last thing i will say is, they filmed th apprentice in trump tower. but when i wrote my trump book one of the facts that i foun really fascinating was the took a conference room and the had to renault it, because trump tower was still 80s olds it wasn't new. it wasn't fresh. it wasn't sparkly. it is all a lie. everything about the apprentic and him is always a lie. >> i think, though, that if yo talk to domestic violent extremism experts, the paralle they draw is that after 9/11 w were prepared to make sure n one ever got in an airplan with their shampoo ever again. that wasn't what was planned the face of internationa terrorism changed. after 16, the face of domestic violent extremism may have changed. what security experts are more afraid of isn't necessaril another -- field office, which happened after mar-a-lago and i think they are still, sense, a lot of anxiety about lone wolf who watches th coverage or watches trum speech, which apparently was grievance-filled jesse waters yesterday calle da alvin bragg a felon and suggested he self indict, or reported that someone wa calling on him to do that. donald trump junior, while the judge was saying the things he was saying from the transcript irad, was disseminatin pictures of the judge' daughter they don't care, they don' care that they have been rejected in new york, because think the truth is that donald trump has command and contro over movement you understand very well, - among his members an associated for jason to that people who could be prone to carry out acts expired b divested - >> i think the thing that is truly incendiary though in the health of the democracy, i when you get extremists, particularly armed extremists, what it to people with rea political power. when you have got people wit real political power who are willed willing to erase th distinction between one of the elect electoral extremism an what violent extremism, that i when you get a country tha teeters on the edge of n longer being a democracy in this case, what you wer saying earlier about this bein a regulated space, and they're being a judge that now get something to say about wha trump is allowed to say and no say about the various actors i this case, there's potential jail time pella t's if h violates those, if we go i that direction with this case, that is a real test. as to whether or not you can stay a mainstream picked figur with electoral sway while also playing footsie with fascism while also encouraging the mos violent extremists -- >> there is real into turn there. everyone at this table has covered all the ways that ou system doesn't work. and yet there is a sliver here and it may be growing, of wher the system is working. because some of thos extremists you mentioned wer convicted. sedition is a convicted crime. some people are serving long sentences,, even as we cover those who got away there has been talk about th old donald trump, and some ide of teflon. well, anyone living in reality saw a lot of that tough lawn strip today, if it was eve there. and it was a long trip for people like weisselberg. he couldn't keep his money out of rikers. even when he was president there were a lot of people that, later he tried to use th pardon power, manafort went to prison we know that bannon he went through a run on thi the other night, rachel. so - the ponds are getting in trouble, and some of the other players on the border in trouble. then he can amass this now this week, yeah, i think h continues to strip it away no, we're not documenting, we're not trying to cover ou arms race to another january 6th. and yet we are accuratel covering that he threatene this, he warned this, enough that he got in trouble today but he doesn't have that he doesn't have that support partly because he has gotten s many people in so much trouble and now, what is the ultimat indignity, whether he is convicted or not, he i presumed innocent. everyone can see, protect you? he can't even protect himself. >> that's right. at the end of the day, you can talk about this in legal terms to, but at the end of the day think that if you had to bet right now about where this i going to go, this is going t be, they will be back in court maybe in december, they will b on trial maybe next spring it will go on i don't know, fo a couple of months maybe, in terms of the trial then at the end of this -- maybe we'll get convicted an he will pay a fine you know it i mean whoa that is what is going to happen but over the course of tha two-year period, he will hav to be in court all the time. they will be filing motions on his behalf he will potentially be dealing with gag orders. he will be subject to th criminal justice system and al of its humbling specificity. and that is good to have the kind of effect that both of yo guys are talking about >> while he's campaigning. think about that fact that i he has a hearing in december one of the first hearing is january? one is iowa and new hampshire? it is around then you will be flying back and forth between des moines and new york city to do -- how does he keep his image o teflon going while he is havin to be like, i will let you finish with this campaign thing, i need to fly to new york fo this hearing in this case that i'm in that he has to testify in th civil case, e. jean carroll' cases coming up. next week's got the deposition in the corner, a billion dolla civil fraud case - letitia james has brough against. and that is next week. week after that is the fox new dominion trials, which is goin to be a weeks worth of testimony about how all th most famous right-wing years i the country think that he is a dork and secretly -- >> demonic demonic. >> and week after that is th a.g. carroll filing which is accused of defamation -- >> then dismay - because after the election, it did not matter now, presumably, he though maloney a trump and barren trump were gonna be alive afte the election, right. but it just lays out in very plain english this whole defense that has been floate by your lawyers. >> can i just also say there are two things by th michael cohen stormy daniels case that have always bother m about it that never just mad sense to me. one was why did michael cohe get reimbursed $420,000 for 130,000 dollar payment i never understood that before today. first of all, they doubled it. they thought he would be in th 50% tax bracket. they were going to listed as i it was income. and then second of all, they odom another 50 grand fo something else, and there' something else >> got 1000 dollar bonus >> 50, 60,000 dollar bonus >> so i'm like, okay, that's how you got four and $20, 000, that's tax fraud, that's adorable so, that's one but also, why did it tak michael cohen so long to mak the payment to stormy daniels? why is the delayed why was his lawyer threatening them why did they get to 12 day before the election? it was not because michael cohen was having a hard time taking out his home equity lin of credit, it is because trump said delay it, delay it, delay it i'm not about to lose this election and after i lose this election nobody cares about what stormy daniels says >> the other thing is why does the federal government immuniz david pack are you donie parker to pu david cohen away why do they amass all this evidence when you see that alvin brag made good use of it. he made all the back before he indicted this case >> one of the things we're going to talk about with our legal guests when we come back as this question of how to mak these falsified's records, allegedly falsified business records into a felony. what the district attorney alvin bragg laid out today was a number of crimes that he sai were either, were committed in conjunction, essentially, with those records. none of those crimes are being charged. though they're not charging th national inquirer company with falsifying their busines records. they're not charging anybody newly, with federal campaign finance charges. they're not charging anybody with this new york conspirac to get somebody elected base on unlawful needs. none of those things are charged? but yet, those are the felonies, those are the keys, the othe crimes that allow these charge to come up against trump a felonies why is that? w hodoes 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'cause we're busy women... we don't have time for lag or buffering, right? who doesn't want internet that helps ai do your homework even faster? come again? -sorry, what was that? uhhhhh... the next generation 10g network. only from xfinity. >> the indictment does not the future starts now. specify because does not - so require in my remarks, i mentioned a couple of laws, that i wil highlight again now. the first is new york stat election law what makes it a crime to conspire, sort of the candidacy, by unlawful means? i further indicated a number o unlawful means, includin additional false statements, including statements that were planned to be made to ta authorities. i also noted the federal election law kept contribution limits i am not going to go into ou deliberate process on what was brought, the charges that were brought, are the ones that wer brought, the evidence in the law is the basis for those decisions. >> ahead of the indictment today being brought agains former president donald trump, we had it on pretty good authority, everyone pretty wel surmised that they were goin to be multiple charges related to falsified business records. but we all learned in cras course cable tv law school tha in addition to those charges there needed to be something that made those charges into a felony on their own, terms thos things would just be misdemeanors, those things wer not likely there for result in donald trump being indicted. if he was going to be indicted those falsified business records would have to be linke to the attempt to commit o conceal some other crime today, we found out what the other crimes would be. except those crimes are no charged today. we saw alvin bragg just ru through them briefly in hi remarks, answer questions toda from reporters he said under new york state election law, it's a crime t conspire to promote a candidac by unlawful means. he described additional fals business records, charges, not the one that we're charges against trump today, but additional false busines records that were allegedl carried out by the company tha owns the national enquirer he also described federa election law caps on contributions. again, those are not charged today, but he cited thos crimes has been essentially th aggravating factor that made the charges against trump toda into felonies. how does that work, if those crimes he described today we are not actually themselve charged? i put this question to two o our legal experts, who are her with us today. kathryn christian and andrew weissmann, both vetera prosecutors that have seen the from both a federal and stat perspective. can either of you walk to us non lawyers, walk us non lawyers through this part of the charges. >> do you want me to take crack? >> you go ahead. >> okay, so, the first thing t know is that the statute in ne york that says you can bum this up to a felony requires that you have an intent to commit some other crime. you don't actually have to commit that crime. so, that's why you would necessarily need to charge it. that's something that alan bragg said also, if one of the crimes tha your thinking could be used as that bump up is a federal, crime and then that is not something you could charge the state court anyway now, this really goes to christa's question in the last segment, where he said isn't this still a really tenuou case, isn't there a proble because this is a legal issu in this case more than a factual issue. and this is where i wa actually impressed in terms of what was charged there because there's so man different ways in which the da as laid out how he can get to felony he has suggested in his oral remarks that one way is th federal campaign laws. another way is the state campaign laws. a third way is he talked about ami is showing false statements, and this was in furtherance of the state movements. and a fourth wave was ta charges, exactly what you ha laid out, rachel, in terms o the scheme to have michael cohen commit tax fraud which, by the way, is exactl the kind of thing that was alleged in the trump organization weisselberg cas that just resulted i convictions in november. so, those give the da a lot of room so even if there is a attack on one or two of them particularly the state crime of tax fraud and the ami false statement charge, seem ver solid. it seems very hard to imagine motion to dismiss that's going to knock out all of that and reduce all of the charges to misdemeanors >> and it doesn't mean tha when you describe, andrew, the district attorney as havin laid out a lot of differen paths by which he can get to a felony, sometimes, like, whe you see that in a movie script or something, you think, oh, they knew a whole bunch of different options, because the don't have one good strong one but in this case, you're sayin that's not a sign of weakness, that's a sign of strength of the case because even if one of the gets knocked out, there's stil other viable means >> yeah, absolutely, what would charge, and i'm sure catherine when she charged obviously if you have a really weak one, you don't want t have it kind of taint all th other ones but if you have like fou really good options, lay the all out. the defense is entitled, t make motions, and you neve know what a judge is going t do, that's the reason why yo lay out your strongest ones. and here, there are just too many options that i'm sure whe the defense looked at this they were actually thinkin this is more than we sort of bargained for. >> catherine, let me just as you to expand on what andrew has said there especially his point about how you don't necessarily have t charge the crime that brough this up to a felony, you jus have to show that there was an intent to commit that crime, whether or not it was in fac it was committed, whether or not it is in fact charged. again, for those of us who are not lawyers, that can be a little bit hard to wrap your head around. if there is an intent to commi a crime, or an effort to commi a crime, why isn't that charge behavior >> yeah, well, as da brag just said, you know, we did not charge it because our lawyer don't require us to do it. the statute reads people alway forget you still also have t prove the intent to defraud, and then the intent to commi or conceal another crime so a, as andrew said, it doesn't say that you intend to defraud and you committed in other crime. so, as andrew was right, the new york state election law, the federal campaign law that's, if that was all it was based on, then it really makes it a really difficult case but the tax fraud and the am false statements, that makes it, i'm not going to say a roc solid case, but you ca understand why this case was presented and why the da's office believes they have proo beyond a reasonable doubt. and if the jury can believe, okay, forget the new york stat election law but tax fraud and those fals statements by ami. >> and on the tax fraud issue, again, what they said today wa michael cohen paid storm daniels $130,000 he got payback way more than that because he put a bunch of other stuff on it. but when the reasons they lost him up, gave him lots more money back, not just the 130,000 dollar reimbursement if they wanted him to net ou $130,000 after this was put on his income taxes as income but do they actually have to prove he did book that way wit tax authorities, that he did actually climate as income falsely, on his tax returns in order to get their, or do they just have to show that that wa the rationale for why they structured the payment they wa they did, whether or not h eventually submitted false pay for it to the tax authorities? >> andrew wrote on this, so i' going to let him take the lead >> so, the answer is you don't have to show that it actuall happened imagine, for instance, rachel, if michael cohen was arreste in the middle of this scheme you wouldn't be able to say, okay, i have this intent to do it but because i didn't actuall carry it out, i don't, i can't be charged with a felony, if they can show you that intent. of course, if you actually did it, that's gonna be very goo proof that you had the inten to do it but it's not actuall necessary. and in this case, ther actually is reason to thin that, for instance, the trum organization and donald trum himself might have wanted to deduct the, quote, legal fee as expenses. so, that would be tax fraud, but there is a reason to think he did not do that because i became the president and there were a lot of things that we're not done at tha point, as was shown in the trump organization trial tha fall, were basically the accountants turn to him said you know, what we're going t be under a lot more scrutiny so, the stuff that we've bee doing, let's just offer now. >> all right, i feel like we talked early on about how th falsified documents part o this is something that you can put on tv. one full screen image, even se other false documents, kno that they're all very false, it's easy to understand. getting that explanation fro catherine and andrew makes m feel like, okay, the other par of this, why is this a felony, what are the other crimes this is connected to, that feel very explicable, ver straightforward now as well. how do you feel about th overall strength of this case? >> i would call it medium high not completely high. a prosecutor would like more precedent, you'd like more precedent on the books >> you mean, more cases like this than have been previously run? >> more cases like this i thin would be generally awful but donald trump, we should al remember, it is fairly unprecedented. these type of schemes are no habitually pursued so, that is what it is the other point that i think i great about the news, we lov learning new things. we know a lot more tonight tha we knew last night now we know, based on this theory the case, why we didn't charge a conspiracy. because while a conspiracy sounds big and bad, as our veterans there just explain, our prosecutors, raises th number of things you have to prove. and now we may know why mr pomerantz and others who are under the previous da' leadership there, under vance, and had an initial clash wit the kurdia, brag, why they'r so unhappy they were doing a big swing an big stuff. and mr. pomerantz book says, that we had him on msnbc he did not win the day on this and this is why a medium hig not medium low, what we migh call a winnable moderate style case it does not throw the entire kitchen sink of everything donald trump might have done i new york it doesn't even deeply pull in the indicted trump organization, which some lawyers would b tempted to try but with the cfo weisselberg not testifying against him and available as a defense witness to say, yeah, everything a trump or capital trump, yo know how trump org is. we went rogue. well, that's not a thing the wanted to do they didn't do a conspiracy. they didn't do a ton of trum org. and other prosecutors are minus, there is this great phrase, highlighted it in the moment w got this news today, tax purposes and you mentioned it earlier rachel, there's a lot of evidence all around donald trump that they habitually intend to lie. the fact that sometimes thos laws don't reach the governing tax authority may not bail him out or be all that sympathetic a sounding argument to a new york jury. >> right, in this case, th intent to essentially make false representations to tax authorities was apparently annotated and a handwritte notation by the trum organization cfo, written on a bank statement that they have. >> well, and - >> and you taking notes in a criminal conspiracy? sorry. >> that's how we do it in trum world. two things, one thing andrew weissmann said in the earlie our, which is we may not wan to suggest that the broade investigation into the trump organization is over first of all, the da has suggested is not over. second of all, the timing on this is curious, right december could it be their buying themselves enough time to ge the rest of the case, th broader case against trump o get in line? allen weisselberg, who i really the linchpin to all o this, get out of rikers tw weeks from tomorrow. we know five days from now h retained new council, becaus trump or it was not happy with the counsel he had thus far, nicholas gravante. he's now being represented by different trump paid for lawyer, which is to say in plain english, the lawyer that he is retained is being paid for b the trump organization they're clearly worried abou weisselberg being, you know, pressure to testify, maybe i future or ongoin investigations so, i think, you know, there's a statute of limitations piece here that dictate some of th timing, right, in terms of thi piece of the trump's wrongdoing but the broader fraud that may have taken place, the bigger c vance, the case with its origins in cy vance's office that may not be over under the stewardship of alvin bragg and the great andrew weissmann said on air it might not b over so, i listen to him, and i think that, you know, the ke players in this are maybe no done testifying. >> i think the thing that is i conflict over and over and ove again, and i think alvin bragg made two points that stuck i my head and informed how w cover this moving forward, one we bring cases like this all the time but to your point, trump i such a different animal. he is both corrupt and sheep so, when you read through this you see those things clashing, right. you see ami doing these corrup things you see trump saying, as, wait it out and of, course milan is stil going to be alive. so of course, joe tacopina sounds like a cloud with tha defense. but these things are in constant violent contradiction that is so cheap, and i'm no pay more hush money than he' got to oh, but he really needs to cheat to win i mean, these two things at th trump store. >> he makes his lawyer take ou a home equity line of credit t pay for the hush money >> it's so cheap, chea cheesiness that's embodied b how he's doing it. and it's his brazen corruption that mary mccord made th statement that just sort o haunts me, that alvin bragg' framing is this broad an violent assault on our democracy, this fraud carrie out. you know, i worked o campaigns. august 15th before an election to november is sort of thi sacred space it's why they don't brin charges against candidates because it's sort of the saf space. but this one, trump was gettin down and dirty that's when he wrote in hi national enquirer pros that's when he has cointelpr take out his cheesy home equit loan it's the crime confessed to on sean hannity it's also tawdry it may be exactly why merric garland and lisa monaco said you. but it's so brazenly and plainly criminal that it makes sense but -- >> the noblest experiments i human governments can be brought down by the stupides tadarrius most embarrassin things of all. that, children well you back. more to come not part of it but the whole upstairs the whole downstairs the whole fridge 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do... trinet serves small and medium sized businesses... so they can do more of what matters. >> despite leaking that he benefits. payroll. compliance. trinet. people matter. would speak before's arrest or maybe after his arrest i arraignment. >> or maybe jury >> or maybe during his arres and rain, it does ensuring tha the cameras would be on him al day. the former president did not speak privately either befor or after his arrest an arraignment from the trans for the closed-door arraignment, w know he briefly spoke in court but only to say things like no guilty, your honor that said, the former presiden did give a speech tonight when he was back home in florida. and as expected, he spent much of that speech attacking the various prosecutors who ar investigating them or now al right inditing him as i said, we did kind o expect that. however, i wonder if he is surprised his lawyers, when at the same speech this evening he started talking loosely about the documents that h brought with him from the whit house that he was not supposed to take to his private residence. why did he bring that up joining us now from mar-a-lago is nbc news corresponden vaughn hillyard, who's bee there to see the whole thing ivan, thank you for joining us >> yeah, good evening, guys. look, you're looking at situation with donald trump ha a litany of lawyers working on this boris epstein, this is lea counsel coordinator here who has been traveling with him to new york they came back down here t florida. but it pertains particularly t the document case, i think for donald, trump it's not eve necessarily a denial of th alleged crimes or the actions, but more so it's on the basi of the merits. when it pertains to th documents, case tonight hi quote from the state chair is, quote, as president i have the right to declassify documents, and the process is automatic i i take them with me. of course, all of this is goin to go if in the case of th documents case he were to be indicted but each of the statements tha he makes up on the stage, on the campaign trail in the week in the months ahead, you can expect to be a part of any trial on any of these case here and i think that the one prevailing line that i wal away with tonight is this from donald trump it was, quote, our justice system has become a lawless. again, i'll say, it our justic system has become lawless. i think an important part of m job in year number eight o covering donald trum politically is how his words u on a stage ultimately make i down to the american peopl level here and over the course of these eight years, we have seen hi undercut americans trust in th media, and we've seen over the last eight years, him undercut the trust in america's intelligence agencies. we've seen him undercu americans trust in our elections. and then to hear that tonight, this is now an effort to undercut americans trust in th justice system when you talk about th district attorney for manhattan, district attorney alvin bragg, tonight he said the district attorney is the criminal, he should resign. when talking about the judge overseeing this case, juan merchan, he said, quote, thi is where we are right now, i have a trump aiding meetin with a trump heating wife. this is the same playbook we'v seen over the course of thes eight years. and every single one of thes videos who have investigated him, judges who have oversee various cases, he's gone t this concept of this being a witch hunt here. but he also took on fani willis, the fulton county district attorney, suggesting she's doing whatever she can t indict him called laetitia james a racist jack, smith called him a lunatic. this comes all just one week after he suggested and propose that each of these individuals should be ousted from thei positions. for donald trump, the word that he says from these stages they do hit at the level on th ground in which going to waco, texas, last weekend with him you know, these are echoed fro folks on the ground. they think it's important, the difference here, the distinction. he did not speak in th courtroom here today and in so many ways, the campaign stage is the one plac where he does have control tha microphone and there is no judg overseeing him and until there is a gag order in place, we should expect donald trump to continue t play offense because that's the only game that he has ever seen to play. >> to that point, there isn't, as you say, vaughn, there isn' a gag order today. but we did see the judge entertain that at length and substantively at the arraignment today, which i unusual thing to come up at th first instances, right, at the arraignment. was there any sense, and as yo say, you've been covering trum for a very long time, and that seemed to loom a little bit fo him? because if he is hit with a ga order in this case, which th judge explicitly said today wa possible, it's the kind of rhetoric that he said he finds concerning continues, and trum will be constrained by law fro being able to say those kind o things about prosecutors and judges and prosecutors famil members and judges famil members. and if he does go too far he will face consequences for tha for the first time in his life does that seem to loomed for him at all or inflected at all the kind of emphasis he put on those very controversial points? but >> right, there is n direct suggestion of potential death or destruction today, or years of hatred, chaos, an turmoil ahead. so, i guess that's where the question comes down to we are taking personal attacks at individuals, at prosecutors at the attorneys, to wha extent does that parlay into the suggestion to the american people that these people, that there should be direct efforts to take them all on, i whatever context that means? i mean, i was out there on the capitol, on the west front o the u.s. capitol on januar 6th. and i can tell you fro conversations that day and conversation since, there ar folks that are galvanized an follow his lead. and for donald trump here, h is not naive to that and that's also why you see th likes of ron desantis and mike pence coming to his defens here, because they understan at the republican base o support in this republican party today is living in a reality that is listening to oan, newsmax, right side broadcasting, and the speaks that those millions of folks heard tonight here, and th commentary that followed it is a very different reality and juxtaposition of our country finds itself, where ou election system finds itself where our intelligence agencie are directed, where our justic system is. they're living in thei perception of our american federal governments and stat governments today is a ver different one than the conversation we've been having over these last hours. >> nbc news corresponden vaughn hillyard, the vaugh covering president trump tonight mar-a-lago really invaluable to have you, there vaughn, much appreciat it coming into our conversation now is our friend stephani ruhle. stephanie, you've seemed fired off about this you're frustrated about ho this has been cover, today o how people are reacting to, it or what you saw from the defense council today, or what you saw from the media, you ar agitated >> for me, it's always about the same thing follow the money and right-wing media has bee saying scandal after scandal this is great for trump. it is never great for trum politically. remember the first impeachment that did not win him back into the white house. remember the mar-a-lago search that did not win the midterms. and here we are again. this is not a win for donald trump. it's a win in one place only fundraising. and it's what he doe consistently since this indictment wa announced, according to hi campaign, he's raised 1 millio dollars. and the last 24 hours, in th motorcade on the way to th airport, he's on truth social, sending a check. the first thing this morning this is my last email before i'm arrested and then as he entered the da' office, figure fronted, hi campaign sent out an email, yo sent us a track, and you wil get a t-shirt with donal trump's mugshot, which does no exist, because he did not ge one. so, over and over and over this is always about the grift and fundraising. his lawyer, joe tacopina, wh should be focused on the cas gets run from the cameras an says he is raising more mone than ever. so, it's eye on the ball there's one thing that has always been his focus, makin money for himself, and that' what he's doing here >> but don't you think that' kind of his a fallback position? he's like, well, i'm being arrested, well, what can i do? >> his fall back, it is fron seat,'s side hustle, his campaign >> - in the fund raising, but ultimately, ask jeb bush wha it means to raise the most money in a republica presidential primary he put an exclamation point on his name in that primary, bu the $100 million, happy fo everyone else, did not hel them the fundraising, i, think it's a fallback position for him. but i don't think it helps the get out of the hole. >> it's a shiny ball, though for them i mean, it's like a look ove here and frankly, after january 6th he raised a lot of money to, and he did not stay in office. as the number was seven or 7 million, i don't know if i would care either way. to your point, what difference does it make there is also laws and i asked zoloft minh this yesterday, i, mean raising money for his campaign, he has not branded a legal defens fund yet but you can't spend that money on tacopina. >> the money they, raised al that money here raised for his election defense fund, and the the january 6th committee foun there's no official election defense fund, it went to trump's pack >> that's right, it was just a fund raising term. go ahead >> to me, feels like us fo trump's benefit. right, for the - man, he's going after ro desantis you know, the polling is, hi strength in the republican party, he has support among th republican party but he knows his stock is on the decline. he knows what's ahead of him this month and next month an through the rest of the summer i think trump touting th numbers, the fundraising appeals, tacopina coming out there and talking the numbers, is as much for donald trump bu -- >> none of it matters. but it is to continue to cow a party that it is shocking to understand that threw out al of the things that we talked about, the multiple cases, the rape allegation case that he's gotten, that there are two women who are going to get o the stand and testify abou alleged sexual assaults, the fact that he might have to testify. all the travails that ar coming up when it comes to the documents case, whatever happens in georgia his party hears those numbers, they hear, they see that littl freak show in front of the prosecutors office >> little though, little >> it was little but they are cowed >> but joy, can i just - >> they are cowed by this guy. >> but joy, that's the hauntin aspect of what vaughn just reported because what they saw on the networks he listed, oan, i mean, we're like sort of post fox, driving what they see. and i wonder if an away, and they saw what actually happened, that 11 people who are screaming at lawrence o'donnel about his, i can't even say it again. >> his bounty. but >> [laughter >> it goes to what vaughn wa reporting, that we're in thi post reality universe, tha trump has gone from what i worthy of recrimination, being covered wall-to-wall by th mainstream media in 2015 and 16, to be covered by this post fox fringe that is representin something that did not eve happen >> didn't even win an election ever >> but there is somethin grounding about the lega process here, right. ultimately, january 6t happened, and they hav revisionist's history abou january 6th, and applying th january 6th choir and talkin about them as murders. but you know what? 1000 people got prosecuted and many went to jail. and those peoples lives ar forever changed, and that ha inflicted, i think, the degree to supporters are going to g and do the kinds of things >> you didn't see them in ne york you saw thousands of childre and teenagers protesting i nashville yesterday. >> that's right. >> asking for common sense gun laws >> but here in new york city you can see the shaman >> even when trump demanded it there's something going on wit trump now, where we've got thi alternate reality, like, a vaughn was saying, people ar hearing him talk about the classified documents case in a way that is supposed to make them think x about it. right, but that sort of fine unless and until the classifie documents case ends up adjudicated in the court of law, in which case your bumpe sticker is not admissible. >> right >> right, these things onl exist so far in terms of competing narratives about the way we understand the world, until they get tested in a court of law where the rule is evidence and that has a normalizing effect it grants things in reality by default. >> it makes it so -- >> that's the process we're in with trump for the first time. >> it makes it so nuts tha alvin bragg and fani willis ar having to go first it makes the vacuum created by doj not looking at his conduct specifically after january 6th until well after the mar-a-lag investigation is roaring along >> yes >> because you're right, it' all in our - with the republican part breaking bad, and not servin as a breaking system, you know mitch mcconnell thinks he's criminal because he gave a speech on the florida senate saying, oh, i won't vote t indict but the criminal justice syste is there, wink wink. we know what republicans actually think of him. i can't imagine there are many -- >> even the -- it is amazing to me that on th 55th anniversary of dr. king's murder, that these two black prosecutors might have t redeem the soul of america whe it comes to donald trump >> and bear the brunt of it. >> and by the brunt of it, bar the security risk, bear this sort of their rescued haitians they have to take this all on, in two states, new york, and i georgia. when it is the literal job o our federal government t protect our federal elections. i think it is a scandal on the justice department, that thi has become the job of alvi bragg and of fani willis it is a stain on the justice department they are supposed to protect our federal elections. it is their literal job. >> the justice department, all here, starting with sdny, as michael was arguing earlier, investing in the case that resulted in michael cohen goin to trial >> that's right, and packe getting immunity >> and packer getting immunity absolutely and the justice department tha case put michael cohen i prison, and they got int allocution in court, allocutio court saying i did this fo donald trump he is an individual on committed for his benefit. and then nothing and we know from jeffrey berman's book, he was u.s. attorney at the time he said the trump main justice appointees came in and saddene said you cannot investigat this any further you cannot do it and then after trump lef office and those appointee were no longer there, as the enemy just decided to cruise away from that oil spill and hope the shorebirds would take care of it >> [laughter >> i'm sorry, like, we're goin to put down a boom to contai that mess. they just kept packing away. i mean, literally the u.s. attorney for sdny wrote a book saying this was corrupt. this was corrupt this was wrong and we just left there >> that's it >> and now we're seeing, as yo say, alvin bragg, we're seeing fani willis, we're seeing tish james, seeing these othe prosecutors who should not hav to bear this brunt picking u little pieces of it, because doj and sdny dropped it. while sdny and doj are feeling very smug about how independen they are and how much they are you know, do these thing without fear or favor. and it's a shawnda >> and what happens today an december 3rd the next time they're back in the courthouse a lot is going to happen political, right, everyone who is going, all right, the wheel are in motion, it's happening. i will see you in december right. that's a long way from today >> yeah, and in between, the the people who have to get personal security for th family, for their daughters, for their sons, are these loca prosecutors who don't have the secret service, who don't have the federal protection tha those folks in the doj have, and don't have the federal protection that donald trump has. and the havoc that he can wrea to the point you made earlier, alex, it's not gonna be in manhattan. new york doesn't play that game just try that they got to get to work, and they will run you over whether high heels but it's going to happen think about it when the documents case happen it was local fbi field offices that were getting the deat threats. it's the people outside of new york city and this bubble wh are at risk. because that little speech tha he gave that they're gonna see on oan, it's not gonna affec people here. it's gonna affect people w don't even know where. and we don't know how. and we don't know what power h still has over them. but we know he has some powe over a lot of people >> i'm going to interject here for a second, and i'm actually sort of calling an audible here i need to speak with the control room and ask you, live on tv, can i report this breaking news? all right, nbc news ha breaking news, which i can now bring to you i'm sorry, i needed to confirm that if the answer had been no that would've been prett awful. nbc news has projected a resul in the very important wisconsi supreme court election tonight janet protests wicks, the more liberal of the two, dan kelly, the more conservative of the two candidates this is considered broadly to be the most important election in the country, the most consequentia election in the country in the year 2023. as you see these elections here the projected winner is janet protasiewicz the more liberal of the two, judicial candidates here this has very big consequences for wisconsin and indeed the country. i will just point out a couple of things here this may very well means tha there is a deciding vote in th walls constant supreme court that results in abortion b legal in wisconsin instead o eagle. it also means wisconsin, which is already arguably the most gerrymandered state in the country, may finally get wha it are considered to be fair maps instead of radica republican maps. i will also say the wisconsi supreme court is the one supreme court in the natio that agreed to hear donald trump's challenges to the 2020 election, and it was only by one vote they refused hi demand to throw out hundreds o thousands of votes i democratic cities in wisconsin thereby giving him that states election result, when he had not in fact one it and now, the majority on the wisconsin supreme court for th first time in more than decade will flip from hard right conservative control t progressive control. that is a huge deal in wisconsin. >> especially on the mast front, look what happened over in michigan when they started when they started usin actually representative maps same thing might happen in thi great state of wisconsin, whic will dramatically change the makeup >> right now, wisconsin, i mean, forgive me, you know thi better than i do, alex, bu wisconsin, in terms of the popular vote, roughly 50/5 democrat and republican. but if the population wisconsi votes that way, what they ge because their maps are so crazy, is basically a two thirds on third republican majority, bot in their state legislature, bu also in the congressiona delegation so, if wisconsin gets fair map that actually represent the wa that people actually vote in wisconsin, it could flip multiple seats in congress >> yes, yes. >> it could flip control o congress simply by this on result in this one supreme court state in this on election in wisconsin tonight. >> and that did happen i florida, right, in the other direction. illegal maps were used essentially, to flip the congress to the republicans. >> the maps matter [laughter] the maps matter, in short. and by the way, it's nice that this is national breaking news because there was a moment ten 15 years ago, when people were not tuned into why these thing matter and now, the country, i think, has really woken up and it i turning out. that's a big margin. i think it's 14 points i don't want to say that officially >> it's not, we're not, we'r not at the end of it, but she' the projected winner >> and abortion and roe is not this flash in the pan issu that waxed and waned when th opinion leaked that it is a enduring fracture juror that the majority of americans have that front of mind when they make thei decisions. >> and i would argue tha democrats need to rethin everything they understood about politics in the 1990s, guns, and abortion are the issues that are probably the two most powerful electora issues if you don't believe that, loo at what happened in the 2020 midterms, one abortion, i stil believe, and fight me, i believe abortion was the deciding factor in tha election and if you look at tennessee the next abortion level issues guns >> that's going to do it for this portion of msnbc specia coverage on this histori night. i want to thank joy reid for the very long day, and nicol wallace for the super, super long day, and alex

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