>> they may not even have to go that far. i think the lesson is that you can terrorize people into not doing anything just by having a law and having the threat out there that somebody could be criminally prosecuted for doing something. >> the comstock act, this is not a hypothetical. there are lots of folks in right-wing circles writing about and talking about this. lisa rubin, thank you. >> thank you. >> that is "all in" on this thursday night. alex wagner starts now. >> good evening. there are women already terrified making choices about bodily economy. >> certainly. >> fear at all levels of american society. thank you, my friend. today donald trump made his first visit to capitol hill. the first time since his followers ransacked the capital on january 6. to understand why trump chose to come back now after more than three years away, you don't have to look as far back as the insurrection. you just have to remember what trump has been asking congress to do since his criminal conviction two weeks ago. the day after trump was convicted of 34 felony counts in his new york hush money case, eight republican senators vowed to oppose all biden nominees and all democratic legislation as retribution. today six republican senators led by j.d. vance put the oppose all biden nominees part of that into writing. senators explained they would block nominees including anyone who suggested the trump prosecutions were reasonable. anyone who opposed trump's guilt. anyone who supported organizations that celebrated the indictment of donald trump and anyone who supported alvin bragg or supported lawfare or censorship in other ways. which is just big enough to include basically anyone president biden nominated. these republican senators say their blockade will last until election day and in practical terms that means the u.s. government will not be able to appoint representatives to things like the u.n. general assembly or the world health organization or even the not particularly political seeming places like the civil aviation organization and public buildings reform board. what exactly do those organizations have to do with prosecuting donald trump? nothing. this is not about policy, it is about retribution. you might remember last year senator tommy tuberville pulled a similar stunt. tuberville became the first senator in history to do a long- term blockade of u.s. military appointments. senator tuberville kept more than 400 qualified servicemembers, 400, from being appointed or promoted for 10 months. all because of a department of defense policy that had nothing to do with those servicemembers. the blockade was such a blatant misuse of power. it was not just democrats who were appalled. there were some of his fellow republican senators -- >> no matter if you believe it or not senator tuberville, this is doing great damage to our military. >> this power is extraordinary that we are given as individual senators, but it is incumbent to use it in a reasonable way. >> everybody uses holds. the key is you put a hold on someone who typically has some kind of control over the issue you are trying to fix. >> there is not one senator in here who could not find a reason to object to an administration policy. in the military. none of us. we could all find something. i hope we don't do this routine. >> i just hope we don't do this routinely. does two times count as a routine? if so this makes it a routine and this time it is not even about the policy disagreement, however tangential. it is so republicans can protest donald trump being found guilty by a jury of his peers. today we also saw 29 republican senators sign onto this letter disparaging the rule of law and saying trump's conviction was nothing short of the evisceration of the american judicial process. so it is safe to say that from now to november the u.s. senate is effectively going to be at a standstill and unable to govern, not because of policy disagreements, but so republicans can perform an act of retribution on donald trump's behalf. as for the house where republicans hold a majority, well, things are looking worse. politico is out with new reporting saying that in the days after trump's conviction trump made a f bomb filled call to speaker johnson. trump's message, we have to overturn this. now a few weeks after that call it looks like speaker johnson's mission is not just to grind the government to a halt like his republican colleagues in the senate. it is to use the power of the government to make trump's criminal concerns go away. by way of an example yesterday, house republican leaders spent the day whipping votes for a bill that would allow presidents charged at the state level to move those cases to federal court. let me check my notes. how many presidents have been criminally charged at the state level again? oh, only one. what an interesting use of congressional power. politico also reports the speaker johnson is in talks with jim jordan about using the appropriations process to target special counsel jack smith and de-fund his investigation. neither of those have the votes to pass yet, but that is the kind of stuff that republicans in congress are working on right now, which helps put into context why donald trump went back to capitol hill today. it was not for any legitimate legislative concern. it was for what republican congressman matt gaetz called a pep rally for president trump. a pep rally complete with an early birthday party for donald trump himself. >> 11 something to do with this room. >> joining me now is the senior editor at slate two covers the courts and philip, columnist for the washington post. the birthday cake, pardon the culinary metaphor, but it really is the icing on the cake of fealty if that is the metaphor. are you surprised that the pledges of allegiance as they are are so explicit, so undisguised on capitol hill? >> i am not surprised. this is something we have seen for years. watching that package, the thing that struck me as republicans are a little bit like parents on an airplane with a crying child. they have this source of frustration and everyone is sick of it. they are stuck and have got to figure out how to calm this kid down. the kid is donald trump and he is mad about being convicted. don't worry, i will talk to the supreme court. they are doing everything to keep him happy, keep him quiet, keep him on their side and most importantly keep him from lashing out against them. that is what we see with this. they are all trying to keep him happy, keep him quiet and get through this. >> they are terrified of him and they adore him. he is the center of their universe and they can't control him at all. i do wonder as you see the machinations of the conference and republicans in the senate openly trying to undermine the rule of law, does it not throughout the notion of the justice system in america as we watch the legislative branch to this work? >> i think that is a feature, not a bug. i think we are seeing a systematic attack on the rule of law. i think even if we had not had the conviction in the new york trial, we have seen a long- standing set of attacks on judges, on juries, on, you know, prosecutors. on witnesses. i think the whole zeitgeist is, and it is not a surprise. this is a classic authoritarian play. just to foment doubt in institutions. if you foment enough doubt people start looking longingly at the strongman who will save them when institutions crumble. so no part of this is new or unfamiliar. i think what is interesting is seeing a lot of republicans who might have, at one point felt about donald trump, but stood fast on the principle that judges and juries and statutes and the concentration actually enforce some meaning. the degree to which they abandoned that and see no value in that i think is the part that is new and chilling. >> to that point, the idea that they will withhold these nominations across the government, right? the tuberville blockade wasn't great politics and yet they survived it and they are replicating it. on a different level it is not the u.s. military and certainly the w.h.o. and u.n. are not favorites of the republican party, but nevertheless they are stymieing the work and they think it is good politics? >> they do think it is good politics from the standpoint that the political focus at this point is retribution against joe biden and that is what they are focused on. mitch mcconnell doesn't wake up in the morning and say that is what he wants to do, but he understands. it is also mitch mcconnell in 2016, holding a supreme court seat. we have also seen this pattern in the past and it is very anti- institutional, but fundamentally about sending a message to the american public that d.c. does not do what it is supposed to do and we need to get trump in there. >> to make us do our work again. >> right. that is the singular focus from now to election day. >> i do think, you know, republicans are betting that the electorate won't punish them for this and that the broader american electorate is not tuned into this. this is part of the swamp, part of the dysfunction of the capital and you make an important point in one of your pieces this week about normalcy bias. americans have a normalcy bias. it leads them to believe everyone who tells them that everything is awesome. even as that system is hanging together by way of dental floss. we are talking about a system of justice, but i think it has extended to the dysfunctional government. because it still exists, because there is still a congress that occasionally passes laws, people can deride functionality, but they don't think democracy is in danger of falling apart in the same way they hold trumps criminal conviction as an example. a jury of peers found him guilty. it all works. things are not normal right now. things are very abnormal and i wonder if you can talk a little bit more about your level of panic in this moment. >> i try not to use the word panic because it makes my parents super scared, but i guess i would say think about where we were in 2016. what was deemed disqualifying in that race and think about the fact that in the intervening time we have civil jury's finding trump guilty of being a sexual abuser. we have 34 felony convictions. we have january 6. we have donald trump, who ran in 2016. we forget in the fog of memory, but as a family man, as a businessman who was going to drain the swamp. now just running as a straight up autocrat. he is running under the banner of violence, of suppression of rights, of suppression of speech. of deporting immigrants. this is really scary, what has happened, and it seems people are almost less dialed up now than they were in 2016 when they were like that access hollywood tape sounds bad. now every single day you get this drumbeat of what i think is really distressing. you know, saying kind of the quiet part loud about wanting to create an authoritarian state and i think we normalized it because we have to get to cvs to fill our prescriptions and we are raising our kids and we are tired. i think this allows us to wait until some adult says break the glass. i think what we have metabolized is normal is deeply frightening. >> you write about the way in which republicans were very incensed about the trump conviction. democrats were not about hunter biden's conviction and as a result republicans are up in arms and democrats are largely accepting of the hunter biden conviction. i find a number that is particularly staggering around all of this, is the number of people who acknowledge that the donald trump conviction is the right call. it is not moving them at all in their support for trump. this is new monmouth pulling out today. do you agree or disagree with the verdict finding trump guilty? 47% agree. 34% disagree. then you look at the numbers of people who are definitely or probably supporting each candidate. biden, 43. trump, 44. numbers are not moving even in the face of saying this conviction was the right thing. what does this tell you? >> it tells me two things. first we should expect this from the standpoint that even before the verdict a fifth of trump supporters said they thought he already committed a crime. we will vote for him anyway. the second thing is that donald trump did an effective job of inoculating his base against this. it is not just last year. it is in 2016. as soon as the russian investigation came to public consciousness he started saying it is a hoax and that pattern is continuing. it really helped his base. once they bought in on that -- that was it. this indictment, they look at it and they are like, that is exactly what he said. at some point rational people step back and are like it is hard to believe that they came up with all of these different crimes. >> they've been busy. >> they are like they are allowed to get him. >> calling it an inoculation is right. ironic. because we had breaking news in the vein of the abnormal tonight, i want to get your thoughts. clarence thomas, who is a key part of the system of justice and rule of law, found to have three additional undisclosed trips that he took from his billionaire a friend harlan crow. these were trips he did not disclose. this is on top of the hundreds of thousands if not millions of gifts he has taken thus far and only lately come clean about. what does this tell you about the danger we are in in terms of the high court and the lesson it sends to lower courts? >> i think i would put this under the bucket that philip has been talking about. law is for suckers. you may have disclosure statutes. you may have ethics rules. you may have all sorts of obligations. this is not a surprise. and then coming out in drips. last week we had a partial disclosure of some of the trips that were paid for. but not all of them and here are three more trips that were never disclosed. so i think this is kind of part of the larger trump theory which is that we have leaders who do not have to answer to the rule of law and when the little guy fails to get his death penalty paperwork right, he goes to the death chamber. when clarence thomas again and again, time after time after time, does not file disclosures or amends disclosures partially, that's okay because the law is for the little guy. i find it part of this sort of very systemic devaluation of the rules that everyone is supposed to abide by and it is a very systemic effort i think to normalize the notion that some people are too cool and important to follow the rules. >> everyone is supposed to abide by the law. thank you both for your time and thoughts tonight. really appreciate it. we have much more ahead tonight. do you have any summer travel plans? today former president donald trump singled out one, quote, horrible american city he might recommend skipping. first the supreme court upheld access to the drug used in most abortions for now, but it does not mean the fight is over by a long shot. we will talk with nancy from the center for reproductive rights, next. rights, next. me platinum plus gives you the highest standard of clean, even in your machine. clean enough for you? yeah! scrape. load. done. cascade platinum plus. ♪♪ sandals jamaica sale is now on! with rates from $199 per person per night. visit sandals.com or call 1-800-sandals here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost. her uncle's unhappy. i'm sensing an underlying issue.. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. in a unanimous decision today, the united states supreme court maintained access to the primary pill used in most abortions, mifepristone. the court rejected a bid to restrict access to that drug on procedural grounds. justice kavanaugh claimed the plaintiffs, a collection of antiabortion doctors and dentists and unlicensed retirees calling themselves the alliance for hippocratic medicine, justice kavanaugh said they had no legal standing to challenge the drug's approval. this case is dead, but the group of doctors say they are not done. >> the court said the clients don't have standing in this case. we are grateful the case will continue with three states working to hold the fda accountable for its reckless actions. >> today republican attorney generals in missouri, idaho and kansas are continuing to challenge access to mifepristone using the same legal argument in the case the court rejected today. this time they are framing access as an infringement on states rights. even if this challenge fails in federal court, there are still restrictions at the state level. last month in louisiana where abortion is already banned, it became the first state to classify both drugs used for medication abortion as controlled, date -- dangerous substances. effectively shutting down access to these pills through the mail. joining me now is nancy northup, president for the center for reproductive rights. i would first like your general reaction. was it one of optimism, anxiety, pessimism? how did you see it? >> well, it was huge relief because if the supreme court had upheld the ruling from the fifth circuit, then availability of medication abortion by telemedicine, receiving it by mail, things that made it much easier for people to get access to medication abortion if they do not live near a clinic, if they do not take time off, could have been taken away. so relief, but frankly also anger because we should not have been here to begin with. you can tell that nine of these justices agreed with each other. this case had no merit in the law and no merit in fact. so while i am breathing a sigh of relief today, i am really concerned. we know and you just showed us, you just heard, the campaign against medication abortion by those who are opposed to abortion is far from over. >> yeah and it seems very clear that the adf, the legal organization that offended these doctors, is out there, ready for the next wave of this which involves the states. the attorney general of kansas said today that states have the standings that the doctors in this case did not. how concerned are you about that legal theory? >> well i am concerned about it because obviously we have lower court justice who even agreed to this case that the supreme court said had no merit and threw it out. but it does not have merit. you can't go into court because you disagree with the ruling based on science by the fda. let's be clear. why are they going after medication abortion? because it is the method of choice by almost two thirds of women who have abortion in the united states today, choosing medication abortion. they want to cut that off. they want to cut it off in states where abortion is illegal, in states like illinois and new york and california and beyond. we need to be concerned because trying to keep coming in with the junk science as they did in this case and really baseless claims, they will keep on going. >> they can't ban medication abortion, which obviously is the end goal. there is a non-core strategy which is for states to independently take it upon themselves as louisiana did to say this should be a controlled substance. we are not going to use a here. is that the most pernicious strategy? is that the one you are most concerned about or do you think the whole ballgame of banning it nationally is where they will focus their firepower? >> they are going to do both and let's also remember that abortion is already banned in louisiana. so where we are today is the same status quo which is unacceptable and harmful. 14 states have banned abortion with really severe criminal penalties and for people in those states, you know, that status quo is completely unacceptable. >> in the meantime, nancy, as this is debated in the courts and so forth, there is a reality for people seeking bodily autonomy and healthcare across this country. the new york times has a staggering map of the number of people traveling across state lines to seek abortion care. 171,000 people traveled for abortions last year, which was more than double the amount in 2019. what is the picture you can paint for us about the reality of abortion care and reproductive health care in the united states right now? >> it is completely unacceptable that in 2024, four people in 14 states, that they have to travel out of state to get care they should be able to get in- state. we were in congress yesterday. there was a hearing in the subcommittee of the judiciary on of course travel out of state and one of our clients in texas talked about how because she was denied a medically necessary abortion in texas, what would have taken 15 minutes and turned around her health in 15 minutes, she had to spend three days and thousands of dollars going to the state of colorado. that is the reality for so many women and not everybody can leave their state. they don't have the means or the child care or the time off from work. it is really a healthcare crisis happening in the country right now. >> a completely self afflicted crisis. nancy northup from the center of reproductive rights, it is great to have your perspective. thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you. survivors of the sandy hook massacre reached a major milestone this weekend tomorrow could bring another measure of justice. first, donald trump's new election strategy to compete against joe biden and the rustbelt. insult the wisconsin city hosting the republican national convention. we have more on that, coming up next. we're trying to save the planet with nuggets. because we need the planet. and we also need nuggets. impossible. we're solving the meat problem with more meat. slowing my cancer from growing and living longer are two things i want from my metastatic breast cancer treatment. and with kisqali, i can have both. kisqali is a pill that when taken with an aromatase inhibitor helps delay cancer from growing and has been proven to help people live significantly longer across three separate clinical trials. so, i have the confidence to live my life. kisqali can cause lung problems or an abnormal heartbeat, which can lead to death. it can cause serious skin reactions, liver problems, and low white blood cell counts that may result in severe infections. avoid grapefruit during treatment. tell your doctor right away if you have new or worsening symptoms, including breathing problems, cough, chest pain, a change in your heartbeat, dizziness, yellowing of the skin or eyes, dark urine, tiredness, loss of appetite, abdomen pain, bleeding, bruising, fever, chills, or other symptoms of an infection, a severe or worsening rash, are or plan to become pregnant, or breastfeeding. long live life and long live you. ask your doctor about kisqali today. they say we should stop eating so much meat. and long live you. so we made meat out of plants. because we aren't quitters. impossible. we're solving the meat problem with more meat. are your gutters clogged? cleaning them can be dangerous, mucky, yuck. get leaffilter. it's as easy as one, two, three. call or click today. get your free gutter inspection on your schedule and get leaffilter installed in as little as a few hours. you'll never have to clean out your gutters again, guaranteed. get leaf filter today. call 833 leaffilter or go to leaffilter.com as easy as 1, 2, 3 donald trump wants to talk about things that he thinks are horrible, but all of us lived through his presidency, so right back at you, buddy. to insult the state hosting your convention is kind of bizarre. kind of unhinged in a way. >> that was mayor johnson responding to donald trump's comments made reportedly behind closed doors where trump called the city of milwaukee horrible. milwaukee of course is the city where in a little over a month donald trump will officially become the republican presidential nominee at the rnc. meanwhile first lady joe biden was in green bay today kicking off a healthcare initiative. nbc news found since the launch of the reelection campaign in the fall, the team has made 10 trips to wisconsin and pennsylvania. in addition to a dozen visits to the state of michigan. there is a logic to this. nbc news notes that biden's most likely path to victory lies in pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, and a single electoral vote from an omaha base to district. joining me now is founder and executive director of a more perfect union and manager of bernie sanders campaign. thank you for being here. obviously this white house is thinking about all 50 states, but the campaign is increasingly looking at a specific reality for biden's reelection. as onlookers to all of this, should we be looking at those three states as the prism through which we understand everything else joe biden does from now to november? >> it is not the end-all, be- all, but it is critical to maintain the presidency. when you look at wisconsin, i appreciate donald trump trying to dig a hole and keep digging, but you and i know what he is trying to do which is to set up a rural and urban divide. that is a state that he won in 2016. flashforward and biden wins with 20,000 votes. what happened in those four years? 300,000 more people voted in the state of wisconsin and that help to deliver a margin for biden. for those playing along at home, what are you expecting in 2024 and if it is closer to 2020, biden is in a great place. closer to 2016 and trump is in a better place. it is generating enthusiasm for the states to win. >> what you think about his actions and priorities in terms of what he talks about tailored to those states? what effect do you think that will have on the man in the coming months? will we see a focus on certain issues over others? >> geography matters. if you think of michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, what defines them? these are states that you know well that are factory towns that of lost jobs. due to manufacturing that has moved away from the united states. these are towns that are proud and built trades and apprenticeships. cars and parts supplies and they made crayons and all kinds of things. all kinds of stuff that we like and we saw those jobs move abroad. here comes joe biden saying i've got a different plan. i've got a plot that says we will make it in america. we will invest in industrial policymaking to bring jobs back. the priority is not just getting it cheap, to get equality and good and made in the united states. in 2016 and 2000 17 -- 2017, everything is going terribly. here is joe biden doing it and now the politics as to translate in the states where we make that choice. you can see the way donald trump is campaigning. he does not have the same ability to go to these towns and argue that somehow he will do something to rebuild these areas when joe biden has come along to start to do it. the goal is to educate people about the fact that this choice has been made and do we stay on the track that joe biden is offering? >> do you feel there is tension within some of the states and i will pick pennsylvania because you have a more urban and suburban electorate clustered on philadelphia that he has to keep on his ledger and perhaps even expand his support and he also has allegheny county and the rustbelt part of the state which is much more of the scranton joe persona. is that a delicate balance? those are very different voters, different levels of income, different levels of information and education. how do you see his ability to strike a balance between the two? >> i tend to believe, alex, that i think joe biden does it well. the persuasion audience, the people who have not yet made up their mind about either candidate, the ones who are concerned about joe biden here and maybe donald trump there, those are working-class people who are often defined by not having a college degree, holding down a job, making under $100,000 a year. that to me is where you have to be laser focused and to my mind the argument they have not heard and need to hear over the next few months as you have a billionaire and ceo class. we are speaking on a day when donald trump went to the business roundtable to tell them you will get tax cuts for the rich. i will come back and you will be so happy. they have to know that that is the choice. as you mentioned, scranton joe, who has been taking on a billionaire class. trying to un-rigged the economy. fighting junk fees. going after uncompetitive mergers. things that speak to your pocketbook and trying to make your life better. here is a guy promising every day that i've got the ceos backs. i will deliver tax cuts. that i think will be decisive and if you hone in on that working-class audience i do think they are the most important of all of the audiences we need to persuade. >> you are being generous and suggesting donald trump had a strategy by insulting the city of milwaukee, calling it horrible reportedly. mike johnson i think was on another cable news network saying he did not hear trump say that. i think other republicans don't think that is a great strategy, if it is a strategy. you know, is -- >> alex, i will say i blame myself for this. i listen to every donald trump speech and and everyone he tells you about the decline of american cities. he will go to san francisco, new york and wherever he is. he will pick a place nearby. everything is terrible. it is no slip of the tongue. this is intentional and by design. he is realizing the politics might not play exactly as i wanted it to because i will be going there shortly to court those votes. but this is what he believes. this is the american carnage theory. he believes in decline and everything is terrible. >> well, maybe he forgot that actually the rnc was in milwaukee, which is entirely possible. in the strange brain of donald trump. thank you as always for your wisdom and enthusiasm. it is great to see you. >> thank you, alex. coming up, today was the deadline for donald trump to file motions in his hush money trial ahead of sentencing next month. what did we hear from the former president and his legal team? 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or what if they were my significant other or what if they were able to walk the stage with me? who would i still be friends with now? >> seeing those children enter adulthood as a reminder of where this nation is 11 years later. according to the gun violence archive, america experienced more than 4800 past -- mass shootings in the past decade. in 2022 the nation mourned the death of another 19 elementary school students. another american community that will now be remembered as the site of a horrific tragedy. in the wake of that shooting president biden past the first gun reform in generations, but republicans have resisted the continued calls to ban the very assault rifles used at sandy hook and robb elementary. for years the family hook -- the sandy hook family were re- victimized by alex jones, who said that the shooting was faked. the families sued for defamation and eventually they won. tomorrow the judge overseeing that case is expected to move forward on liquidating alex joneses assets to help pay down the $1.5 billion jones owes those sandy hook families, just days after their children would have graduated high school. over the past few years there has been no shortage of discourse about how the next generation of kids will experience the transition into adulthood. could kids have a normal graduation during covid? 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[ bird squawks loudly ] to a pet shop. meg's moving company uses t-mobile. so she scaled down her fleet to save money. and don's paying so much for at&t, he's been waiting to update his equipment! there's a smarter way to save. comcast business mobile. you could save up to 70% on your wireless bill. so you don't have to compromise. powering smarter savings. powering possibilities. everybody say there's no crime. and there's no evidence whatsoever connecting trump with any criminal wrongdoing. there is an insufficient amount of evidence, no crime has been shown. bragg evidence is inadequate. there's no evidence. there is no evidence and there's no crime. there's no crime. >> throughout donald trump's criminal time in new york, the former president citing legal experts arguing there was no evidence to convict him. a jury that found him guilty of 34 felonies disagreed but under new york state law, trump has one more chance to prove there was no real evidence of a crime by arguing that the judge should set aside the jury's and today is the deadline for to file that motion. joining me now is kristi greenberg former prosecutor. by my clock which is fairly accurate, it's 9:55, there are two hours left for them to file this. >> this is their chance to you know, basically this is a last chance that they have to make their legal arguments before they proceed to an appeal so they will be filing a full some motion. >> what is that, like everything and the kitchen sink? >> we are going to see a lot of the same recycled arguments that we saw before, just that you heard, that there's no crime here, you can't use state laws to deal with federal election crimes, you can't, the judge is biased, the prosecutors are vindictive and said you're going to take a lot of those arguments and you're going to cite the trial record but the problem is the trial record doesn't support the argument. they will point to a number of places where the judge ruled against them or reprimanded them, but there are also plenty of examples where the judge ruled in their favor and actually kept out evidence like playing the access hollywood tape, like hearing about sexual allegations against trump, you know, after that access hollywood tape, none of that came into the trial and so, there are any number of evidentiary rulings, things that went in his favor so this judge was fair, i think their attempt to use the trial record to regurgitate a number of these arguments is really not going to work. >> so is there a downside to doing this, you know, do you further erode confidence in your argument, >> if anything you are adding to the record, right, this is a judge who has already told trump's lead counsel that he has lost all credibility with the court and that was before the trial even started. >> there was, we got new information today on the gag order, on monday i believe trump legal team introduced a new motion for the judge to lift his gag order. the reasoning in part being that trump would like to be able to speak freely presumably about the judges, witnesses and prosecution during the debate. you think judge merchan moves at all on this? >> i do, and he is moving quickly and more quickly it seems from the papers that trump filed, which tells me he actually is looking seriously at this. so i think, there are three categories as you mentioned, and there's one category where i think the judge is going to take a close look at it and that is the statement that trump can make about witnesses. now we have seen the appearances from stormy daniels, and michael cohen, where they are talking about the case, talking about the election, talking about trump going to jail post verdict. so i think there is some merit to trump's argument that he should get to respond to those kind of attacks and i think the prosecutor, they seem to just that they would make some amendments to allow for that. that's the one category where i can see some shift but trump's motion says really nothing about why he should get to now attack the jurors, after the verdict or why he should now get to attack the judge's daughter, so if anything, what we've seen from nbc news reporting, brian riley talking about the threats on jurors, people trying to identify who they are, trying to threatened with violence and now we are leaning toward sentencing, if any of that is revealed and he keeps ramping up these attacks, i mean, that is only going to intensify, so the need to protect these jurors and protect the court staff and the court staff and their families has not gone away. this case is still pending. >> from the state of the presidential debate that a lot of people are tuning into, that is not keep anybody any safer. i appreciate it. that's our show for tonight, and a reminder, you can listen to every single episode of alex wagner tonight as a podcast for free, scan the qr code on your screen or search for alex wagner tonight wherever you got your pad cat -- podcast. nancy pelosi is going to be our guest tonight. i'