you know who thomas is he wrote columns for decades and has written fantastic books. he has been a leader in the liberty movement for at least half a century. he is been warning the american people of tierney, what tierney looks like, creeping tierney, aggressive charity. from my perspective was sitting in the middle of it. he has got this fantastic new book out, social justice fallacies you can get it at amazon.com or any major bookstore. it is a fantastic book. and i don't to welcome you. and let me say this to you, i have been following you since i was a little kid. not to date both of us. you had an enormous impact on my life. in fact you have had an enormous impact on the way i do this program. i remember you on the bill buckley firing line you were a killer debater absolutely unbelievable. all of that said, let me start this way. social justice fallacies, you start out as a marxist print as many young people do in colleges and universities. he did not take long for you to realize, wait a minute this is not alway all it's cooked up to. was the social justice stuff in this inequality stuff these ambiguities did that have an impact on you being a marxist and then realizing wait a minute this is all bs? >> yes it did. and there's a very simple explanation. at the time i became a marxist after several years of study and observing things going on. and fax it carried a lot of weight with me. went backs and ke back kept goie wrong way i realized this was not going to do it claimed it was going to do. one of the big problems about social justice is what they say sounds so good it's only after you study history you find out just how bad, how horribly it turned out. mark: these phrases are very nebulous social justice. what does that mean? basically if you agree with the marxists and leftists you support social justice but if you support individuality, capitalism and property rights your antisocial justice? what does all this mean? >> that is how they look at it. they seem to assume a world if things do not turn out the same for everybody that mean somebody has done somebody wrong. that is an incredible assumption that human beings have such enormous control over their own faith individually or collectively. i think back over my life and i'm sure other people could do e same in their lives there are times the particular person appeared on the scene and change the whole trajectory of my life. it has happened more than once a part of sure it happened in the lives of many other people. there is nobody out there who has all the incredible amount of knowledge required to take over making other people's decisions for them. mark: do you find these radicals these autocrats this turn in social justice. they mean centralized government redistribution of wealth, a permanent government that undermines representative government? isn't this the nomenclature for that? >> it is. and if you realize what enormously high opinions many of the intellectual elites have of themselves, you can see what it boils down to his very intellectual people like themselves preempting the decisions of other people in every aspect of their lives. one of the things that astonishes me now is we are having this big debate about sex's education in the schools. to me the question is what qualifies the people who are pushing this stuff to take over the rules of parents? what is also very troubling is this all came out during the covid pandemic when the students were studying at home and the parents got to see what was being taught in the schools. now it so happens that 30 years ago i wrote a book called insight american education. in which all of this was laid out just exactly as it is happening now. the appearance this is responding to what the students want, i cannot imagine how many young people in the elementary schools especially, are saying they are a boy want to be a boy or they are a boy want to be a girl. i cannot think of anyone in my whole lifetime who was saying things like that. if you follow the institutional way these things are done, there are groups outside the school system inside the school system who want to do this. and who know the parents don't want them to do it and they do it anyway and they pretend they are responding to what the students want. they are not too. once i was at a meeting of educators and while i was there there was a man going around the country selling a particular brainwashing program. he showed me his schedule. he was scheduled, my gosh every two or three days a four months to be pushing the stuff on all the schools. he mistook me as if i was a school official he was regaling be with all of this. it's clear this is not a spontaneous thing. it is organized and the tactics used are the tactics that were developed for brainwashing in communist countries. mark: the book is social justice fallacies by doctor thomas sowell. critical race theory the 1619 project, these are anti- knowledge, aren't they? they are propaganda devices for the hard left that are being pushed in our classrooms. pushed in our society and so forth. these attacks on the american system do they promote equality? do they promote unity? do they promote the melting pot society are they intended to destroy this culture? what clearly is the latter. it is not just propaganda. it is propaganda that overtly prevents other views from being heard. if they were propagandizing in the students were allowed to learn other things as wellin different ways of looking at life that is one thing. for example there are people who have taught academic courses on racial and ethnic issues at harvard and other places to just simply stop teaching their courses. if they were saying anything different from what the propaganda or saying you have violence on campus and so on. the university administrators would not protect their classrooms. one of the great scholars in this area simply stop teaching his course because you had ignorance silencing knowledge. mark: ignorance silencing knowledge. you write an entire section on knowledge for you break it down into different subsections. let me ask you this. i don't if you watch news these debut talk about what's going on in the classroom. are we really a nation that's about knowledge? or are we a nation that is about substituting the hard left for real words substituting the thought process of people who really seek to find quote unquote the truth with ideology? what have we become? when i watch the news all here is propaganda surface level bs. >> yes that is the norm unfortunately in academic institutions. even the most prestigious the entire ivy league is in that same mode. it scares me because you have people like say however mcdonald or charles murray will come onto a campus they do so a with physical risk to themselves. and again the authorities do nothing. of course i don't normally go to those things anyway. but i have been to some of them where they had the police all around, the doors are locked and people outside banging on the windows and doors just to disrupt the talk that's going on inside. iron burbach in 1969, this is been going on a long time. it is so sad it has taken us so long to become aware of it. 1969 students at harvard went into the administration building. they seized it, one to the personal records were passing out all of the personal information for faculty and other things to the media and so on. the president of harvard called in the police. the harvard faculty gave a vote of no-confidence to the no confe president and he resigned. i think after that other presidents decided the way to get along is have preemptive surrender. that is been developed into an art. mark: you have been studying our country for a very long time. the history, economics, philosophy, you have covered a whole horizon. forty years ago, 50 years ago today was the country in a better position today than it was half a century to go? or is it in a worse position? >> much worse, much worse. the silencing of the other side has become much more prominence. the really dangerous not in the silly ideas being promoted, it is in the fact no one else is allowed to reply to them without some danger to themselves. mark: do you see this country a growing police state? i don't mean a police state and these aggressive facts marxist regimes but slowly but surely like you're talking about controlling the language which controls thought and activity. this massive censorship that judges have now ruled on this administration. you can see the politicization of the department of justice and so forth. let me put it to you this way more fine points, are we a free country today? i remember of me sees what sake americans talk like marxist. are we a free country today? or are we on a country on the precipice of losing our freedom? >> i think the latter. it's hard for me too see how were going to come out of this. especially when people are so willing to increase the powers of government. they don't seem to understand that it does not matter for what purpose you gave them that power which may have been good purposes. once they have that power they can use it for whatever they want. the federal reserve system was set up for example to prevent runaway inflation or runaway deflation or bank failures. the intellectuals were one 100% behind that. but the cold fact is there's been mthere isbeen more deflatig the great depression more inflation for decades on end and more bank failures than ever occurred prior to the setting up of the federal reserve system. but the federal reserve system for example can't force people to do things they don't want to do just because they have the power to hold up with the decisions are. so the pf the power created for one purpose is used for some different purpose. when fdr took the united states off gold standard he used a law passed during the first world war ii prevent trading with enemy nations. but once the power was there you could use it for anything you wanted too. the six episode true. doctor thomas sowell, when we return i went to get into the issue of race. i feel like we never get away from it. i went to get into it because it seems to me the more colorblind people want to be, the more the elites in the ruling class insist that we not be. we will be right back. ♪ (♪ ♪) you inspired the lexus es to be, well ... more you. so thank you. we hope you like your work. 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probably an infinite list of things. and secondly why do they only focus on race on the left? >> i guess that's proven to be a politically popular thing to do. but in point of fact one of the things that's mentioned in the book is a study done by that "new york times" of all people some years ago. they tried to show the 10 poorest counties in the united states. they mentioned which ones they were and so on. and it turns out six of the 10 counties had a population that was 90% -- one 100% white. that when the "new york times" he did not mention the race of the people at once he told me the counties and it looked it up. in fact i fold the average income in those six counties over a span of 50 years. in all of those 50 years all six of those counties had at median income lower than the median income of black americans. so the people in those counties have face zero racism because they were white ink distinguishable. they did not have a legacy of slavery. and yet there they were. you have to ask then, clearly there must be other things that cause poverty. we cannot just assume people of a given race have more poverty than some other people that race must be the reason. this has become an automatic kind of thing. i think most people would be quite surprised. one of the things that happens is that behavior matters. you see that in so many different ways. for example, i think most people would be surprised to learn despite the fact blacks as a whole have a higher poverty rates thratethan whites as a wh. white married couple families have for more than a quarter of a century every single year had a poverty rates under 10%. and in most of those years the national poverty rate was not as low as 10%. and you say this is due to institutional racism. on that case does it means that races make an exception for blacks who are married? do they care whether blacks are married? none of these explanation stands up to the slightest empirical study. mark: let's talk about this when it comes to minorities generally. an aging population of this country achieves a lot intellectually, education wise. they are discriminated against these ivy league colleges we had a harvard we had a supreme court decision and so forth their weight jews were by harvard, yale, princeton and so forth. so people who push the race issue, is it that they really care about black people or asian people or jewish people or is it just a nether wedge issue to try to destroy the culture and destroy the society? >> there are some people who are both. some really believe it and i for sorry for them. but there are some who really don't care. if it gets them elected, that is what matters. this is one of the tragedies whf trying to politicize race. there are so many fallacies it's hard to know which one to take up. but for example the great narrative blacks rose from poverty. got into professional occupations as a result of the 1960 social welfare programs. and this is the big benefit. one of the problem with this way of looking at things is everything depends upon when you pick as the start of this trend. if you go back to 1948 that is 20 years before these wonderful things supposed to have happened in the 1960s and you discover the degree to which blacks were in poverty declined from 80% in 1940 to 47% in 1960. it went down by 48 poin 40 poinn those 20 years. now you look at the 20 years following 1960. they went down 18 points. and so the trend did not begin in the 1960s. the trend was there before them the trend did not even accelerate after 1960. many people think it would all be give the civil rights act of 1964. that was a fine act to get rid of the segregation laws in the south. but the cold fact is the percentage of blacks who had professional occupations doubled from 1954 until 1964. that is the decade ending at the time the civil rights act of 1964 was passed. if you look at the things that are negative. for example black children being raised in single-parent households. in 1940 just under 17% of black kids were raised in one pair families. but after the 1960s before the end of the century four times that many, 68% of black kids were being raised in one parent families. that does not depend on a racism or any of the other things they talk about pretty depends upon things that happen due to the policies of the 1960s which are still going forward. next the dissolution of the family just unbelievable. dr. thomas sowell when we return my breturned my big question fou is, as a nation where do we go from here? 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(farmers mnemonic) reportedly were productive but still no deal insight i am john scott. ♪. mark: welcome back america here's a great book the social justice fallacies. you can get at amazon.com right now. get i at any major bookstore. it comes out on tuesday the release date september 19. dr. sowell i want to read for the audience you wrote it so you'll know the very end of your book. in relation to the question and that the last segment with and then i would like you to follow on if you don't mind. what are those of us were not followers of the social justice vision? at a minimum we can turn our attention from rhetoric to the realities of life. this is a great supreme court justice holmes said think things instead of words today it is especially important to get facts rather than catchwords. these include not only parent facts but also the vast array of facts about what others have done in the past. both the successes and failures. i take that to mean, dr. sowell, you've got to work hard to credit all the static come all the propaganda, all of what academia for the most part is trying to indoctrinate you with and think for yourself. begin to educate yourself as a citizen who loves this country and wanted to remain free. that is a good starting place do i have that about right? >> absolutely. and above all you have to concentrate on facts. which again are things that are suppressed rhetoric just rules the roost in too many places. what is really pitiful the way people are sacrificing so much money to send their children to expensive schools to get very cheaper propaganda. one of the sad things i encountered doing research for this is how many people on the left do not answer arguments with counter arguments but with ad hominem attributing bad things to people who disagree with them. but never answering what they have to say. this whole thing about the white supremacy thing one of the things that bring out in the book is there's any number of agent groups people from china, india, japan and wherever who have higher incomes than the white population of the united states. if you get full time mail workers from india in the united states, their income is $39000 more than the annual income of whites doing the exact same prescription. yet people go around talking about the white supremacy. my gosh apparently people from india have not heard of that y yet. so many other things are blindly attributed to race. you find if you go into it there are other things. it is one thing to be against racist. it's another thing to exaggerate what they could do. you might think about what they cannot do. they cannot stop 9 million black people having higher income than the average income of white people. you could not stop thousands of. they cannot stop blacks from becoming billionaires as tiger woods, oprah winfrey and a number of other people have been. they cannot stop blacks from becoming generals in the military are becoming president of the united states. and yet we go on as if were still living in the world of 100 years ago. we are worried about racist. i think the racist at this point cannot do one half the damage that the teachers unions are doing. by making the schools, places for teachers to have ironclad job security. and for turning them into propaganda centers that do not teach the kids math and english. a black kid who graduates from high school with a mastery in mathematics and the english language there is practically nothing that can stop him except the propaganda he has been fed in the schools all of these years. mark: the book is a fantastic social justice fallacies it comes out twos that you can get your copy on amazon.com. every major bookstore will have it as well. we have an incompetent ruling class of elites? or an ideologically driven ruling class of elites or both? >> of both. but primarily -- people enormously impressed with themselves because they have high iqs and phd's after their name. some of the great tragedies and horrors of the 20th century were promoted by thos this verys of people. the holocaust would qualify in that category. the progressive era people were promoting genocide. one of the books written by one of them was translated into german and hitler called it his bible. most people do not seem to realize this was an idea that was predominant among the intellectuals around the time of world war i. and in later years the facts when they finally came out completely undermined all the things they had said. but by that time it was too late tfor. >> entire eugenics movement the whole progressive era. i guess the thinking was if we are going to perfect society we have to perfect human beings. and i feel in many ways apart from eugenics that is s is stilt we are dealing with it. it is very messy, democracy is very messy the first amendment is very messy. so they seek to crush apart i will leave you with the final word. >> that is one of many things that cause me too say as i did in the book, stupid people can create problems. but it often takes brilliant people to create a real catastrophe. that's the history of the 20th century will bear that out. mark: are deafly us exceptions to that social justice fallacies of the book a comes at tuesday september 19. you can order your copies on amazon.com. what a fantastic pleasure in order to have you with us dr. sowell's. god bless you my friend. >> and you. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with the money i saved, i started a dog walking business. oh. 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sounds good to me. ask your doctor for farxiga for heart failure. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ farxiga ♪ mark: welcome back america. this is incredibly smart show no thanks to me thanks to dr. thomas sowell and now victor davis hanson. i come to greatly admire is one of the outstanding minds in america today. victor davis hanson you heard your friend and former colleague dr. thomas sowell he paints his picture about the nation for it was your general take of what he has to say? >> 's reviews whole body of work for 50 years and has applied it to the woke movement. he has come up with a produces synced explanation of the gym we are in. he is saying the attraction or the seduction is an age old play but in this particular moment we have given into it. he is kind of channeling as he escorted before alex de tocqueville most people would rather be equal and poor than a better often have some people better off than them. politicians cater to that desire and exploit it. he spent his entire life trying to show us that inequality is a very complex issue. sometimes it's important sometimes as a le is a less imp. sometimes it's due to race there so many multiples and factors the idea a government would need the power to make a sequel on the backside always result in tierney, death, destruction. he has devoted his life to try to explain that to us again and again. mark: so have you. and you know victor davis hanson i don't think anyone has done more to explain the damage of an open border unchecked immigration than you. and, as a matter of fact he predicted a lot of things are going on this country today. you are really an expert on athens, greece, the wars in rome and so forth. help us understand in context, is america certain to survive forever? or are we literally taking steps to destroy ourselves? >> note country get set from history. each generation has to believe they are better than the alternative. they don't believe have to be perfect to be good but they have to better than the alternative when they fail collectively to believe that history steps and answers was no reason for you to continue when someone else would like your power, your prestige or your influence. there are certain things throughout time and space that are essential to a country. i think that is why you and dr. thomas sowell and others are worried you cannot replicate your system all over the world what is beyond the human ability to do so. but in a confined space you have a power to create a culture in a country and a politics and in the economy and were not doing that. what is really orwellian is this new effort not to allow illegal immigrants to go northward into sanctuary cities where you would think they would be welcome in spirit but in fact they are not welcome. they're being forced to go back to texas we have redefined the u.s. border in a way is north of texas and said it is okay if you come across the board as long as you stay in a red state. it's almost like we've ceded sovereignty to mexico. but all of these things tom and you were talking about an donald trump and desantis and all the republican candidate for the most part are talking about a systemic collapse whether it is crime, or energy, or the economy, or the border the left finally got there moment we have not witnessed something we may be had not seen since 1932 and empowered progressive hard left free to do what they want and the results are in and they have destroyed most of the big cities in the united states that cause the largest migrations in american history out of blue states into red states have destroyed the criminal justice code they have destroyed the southern border they have humiliated us abroad with afghanistan. they call all of that disaster a success. we are watching in real time. mark: when we come back victor davis hanson are we in the middle of a revolution? it certainly suggested so. but even more than that what kind of revolution is this that we are in the middle of if you agree with that? which i think you do. we will be right back. if we want a more viable future for our kids, we need to find more sustainable ways of doing things. america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars in new technologies and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow, we're focused on making plastics better today. loving this pay bump on our allowance. wonder where mom and dad got the extra money? maybe they won the lottery? maybe they inherited a fortune? maybe buried treasure? maybe it fell off a truck? or maybe they switched to xfinity mobile - the fastest mobile service. save hundreds a year over t-mobile, at&t and verizon. now i can buy that electric scooter. i'm starting a private equity fund that specializes in midcap. you do you. switch to xfinity mobile today. ♪ ♪. mark: welcome back america. victor davis hanson, what kind of revolution is this we are experiencing right now and are we? >> is not like the american political revolution. it's not a political revolution alone it's more like the french revolution. it is a 360 24/7 social revolution. we are attacking the fundamentals of society. we do not even agree anymore on the foundational date of july 4, 7076 is about 1690 we topple statues. this is create a new gender. we have new names for buildings we wake up one morning a place of building a street the name has changed. we try to find some commonality. i think the constant theme is revolutionaries wants to be given absolute power to make us all equal is a quality of reso resort. to do that is contrary to human nature, they need an extraordinary amount of power. and to achieve that goal they have weaponize the fbi, the d.o.j., the cia and have created new protocols where it's the fbi pink social be to suppress the news. or it's joe biden the midterm elections. they are achieving a level of control and influence that they feel is necessary to perpetuate this we are all going to be equal on the back and revolution. it is pretty scary and they are not done yet. they feel they are only in mid stride. >> it's there is a columnist named david who outside of the 50-mile square area, americans never heard of this guy. he's writing for the "washington post" are pretty writes a piece and the emphasis is he is telling biden to get out. but they missed completely the beginning of his piece where he is praising biden for all of the authoritarian. and i would argue autocratic step this manna biden a man bids regime have taken. the criticism at a surface level is giving a signal out to the other democrats, know the story is not that. the story is he is praising biden for all the tierney biden has imposed on the nation. don't you think that is part of the problem? it's politics everyday rather than looking at what's actually going on? >> absolutely but he knows he's lying. he knows the price of gas, the price of staple foods the condition of the southern border, the crime in our streets, the destruction of the criminal justice he is the disaster he understands that. that is just a rhetorical troll to get to the real problem. and in his mind they have a president that is cognitively challenged. and is also corrupt. it's one e-mail disclosure one fall off the step from oblivion. and in david's mind that means harris will finish this term and then she will be an incumbent. and he thanks it will be a disaster for the progressive project rate is probably right about that. and his rhetorical way is going to provide biden as a way of damning him. you've done a great job now get out spray do not get out until your term is over. we are going to reward you, we're going to praise you would say you're a great president but you've got to get out pretty got to get out you cannot run again. were going to cross our fingers that somehow you're going to be alive enough or you're not going to be so that she's not the vice president. she is henry wallace and fdr problem all over again of 1944 and 45. mark: they want to get him out they want to continue the revolution, correct? >> not until his term is over she will be an incumbent. they will do anything to deny he is corrupt. you can have a boldfaced assessment he is corrupt or he says something on a phone call ohe can fall down and roll over three times they will say he is as honest as the day is long. but not after his tenure ends. after then the be candid he should not be a presidential candidate for the party. mark: will he be? >> what's it is a 50/50 chance. i do not want to be a nostra dominus i think it's a 50/50 chance he'll have trouble to finish the next year end half i thihave ithink it's a 90% certae will not be the democratic nominee and 2024. >> i think you're probably right. victor davis hanson i want to thank you. not just for tonight, saturday night. but for all the brilliance you put out there in your columns is very, very important. take care of yourself, god bless you. >> thank you for having me mark. mark it's easy to get lost in investment research. introducing j.p. morgan personal advisors. hey david. connect with an advisor to create your personalized plan. let's find the right investments for your goals okay, great. j.p. morgan wealth management. oh, booking.com ♪ somewhere, anywhere... ♪ ♪ i just want to lie motionless in a chair! ♪ booking.com, booking.yeah ♪ ♪ my mental health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. td can be caused by some mental health meds. and it's unlikely to improve without treatment. i felt like my movements were in the spotlight. ingrezza is a prescription medicine to treat adults with td movements. ingrezza is different. it's the simple, once-daily treatment proven to reduce td that's #1 prescribed. people taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most mental health meds. ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to any of its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including sleepiness. don't drive, operate heavy machinery, or do other dangerous activities until you know how ingrezza affects you. other serious side effects include potential heart rhythm problems and abnormal movements. it's nice people focus more on me. ask your doctor about #1 prescribed, once-daily ingrezza. learn how you could pay as little as zero dollars at ingrezza.com ♪ ingrezza ♪ (announcer) are you frustrated with your weight and health? 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(announcer) the key to losing weight and keeping it off is managing hormones, maintaining healthy insulin levels, and maintaining lean muscle as you lose weight. (katie) golo worked for me when i thought nothing would work. what a change it made so fast. (jason) i was 424 pounds. so when my doctor told me i needed weight loss surgery, i knew i had to make a change. i don't ever want to go back to wearing a 4xl shirt or not being able to climb up stairs without taking a break. so i'm committed to golo for life. (announcer) whether you need to lose 10, 20, 50, or over a hundred pounds, lose it the right way with golo. go to golo.com. that's g-o-l-o.com. welcome back, a great in our group program. to types of liberty, two great intellectuals and great to see tom so again as well as davis hanson. don't forget, sunday show tomorrow night 8:00 p.m. eastern time. same format but different guest including me because we are going to launch my book the democrat party hates america and i'll tell you what's amazing. all the talk we see on tv, radio, politics, even among intellectuals, it's the one thing they won't say. the democrat party hates america and i can tell you is going to be interesting when the book is released tuesday how many storefronts it will be in, how many interviews will be done and so forth. this is considered provocative. i consider it essential to understand why we lose our country and what we need to do to get it back. i'll see you next time tomorrow night on life, liber ♪ ♪ ♪ [national anthem] ♪ ♪ [national anthem] ♪

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