nevada. >> bill: we'll try to get a fair debate here soon. we'll see what happens in nevada on tuesday. thanks. >> thanks. >> dana: house committee investigating the january 6 riot at the u.s. capitol will soon hold its second in a series of public hearings today. they plan to focus on president trump's claims of voter fraud and efforts to overturn the 2020 election results. welcome to a new hour of "america's newsroom." i'm dana perino. good morning. >> bill: i'm bill hemmer. that hearing delayed a bit as one witness, former trump campaign manager can't testify. he has a family emergency. won't testify today we should say. lawmakers plan to present evidence aimed at showing president trump spread false information to cast doubt on the election. what democrats are calling the big lie. protests take place outside the u.s. supreme court less than a week after the assassination attempt targeting justice brett kavanaugh. an event largely ignored by the networks. brit hume last hour with dana and me pointing out the double standard at play. >> the broadcast networks have placed themselves, by the way they cover things, at the service of one party, the democratic party. we have one very real threat against brett kavanaugh and the possibility of further threats against amy coney barrett and perhaps others. this is a big deal or should be. the fact that it merits so little coverage should tell people all they need to know about what kind of news divisions and what kind of attitude these networks have. >> bill: we'll get into that this hour as we await. with us a great group. martha maccallum, anchor of the "the story". katie pavlich, jonathan turley, and marie harf former state department spokesman. thank you for being here. i'll start with the legal mind, professor turley, what do you expect today? >> well, it seems like they will use today again to try to drive home this point that president trump really knew he lost the election but was still pushing this narrative and pushing the effort not to certify the election. the question there is a disconnect. in the first day they talked about an attempted coup and how this was criminal conduct linking the white house. they haven't quite made that nexus yet. i think most people agree with the criticism about the election results but the democrats are suggesting that they have much more than that. obviously that's something that we have been discussing for two years. but today's witnesses are primarily going to be focusing on what they presumed the president really knew and that he was pushing what they considered to be a false narrative. what many considered to be a false narrative. the question is what does that actually prove in terms of what was promised with these new hearings? >> dana: martha, to that point, this is not something that is a surprise. this is an actual conversation going on since the election, since november of 2020. going into march -- january of 2021 and your leading up to january 6th. we heard from the committee when they had their prime time hearing last week they showed the testimony of bill barr the former attorney general and the president's daughter ivanka trump saying they believed the election was not stolen and i think the committee will try to drive that home this morning? >> i think that's right, dana. i think that they will continue to show that they believe that the president was lying about something that he knew and that that misinformation was used to stimulate and foment what we saw on january 6th. the question is whether or not they can make that link. you can also go back and break down the president's statements that day. a lot of legal scholars and jonathan turley can speak to this and has in the past say incitement is a very difficult thing to prove especially given the fact the president told people to go there peacefully. we heard a lot of testimony whether or not the president what should have been done to stop what was going on to the extent he was capable of and how much of an effort he made there. i really think that this is really all about 2024. obviously the members of this committee feel it is an important event to go back through. on the other hand, you have the department of justice that has brought over 800 people -- arrested over 800 people and have incarcerated 80 or that's the total number so far. some of them have served and some will serve time for this. we had an impeachment process that went through at the end of president trump's term with regard to this. so i think you will get a lot of americans who believe this is well-covered ground and i think the reason to go back there is in large part political because they are afraid on the democrat side he will run again. >> bill: the point you are making leads us to a question will the hearings be effective? if so, to what degree? let's bring if katie pavlich to address this. 20 million viewers over six or seven networks thursday night. you will have six hearings, maybe more, katie, before this is all over. by comparison, one nba game had 11.5 million viewers. how effective could this be in the end? how do you view that? >> well, of course it depends on who is watching and whether they've already made up their mind what they think happened on january 6th and who is responsible. martha's is right when she talks about the politics of this. unfortunately the 20 million people watching are seeing a very one-sided committee hearing that is not one that is based on norms of capitol hill. one that has both sides properly represented. one that has pushback and questioning on both sides of the witnesses. that is something that should concern all americans in terms of the precedent being set with this corrupt-style hearing that is very different than the process we've seen on capitol hill before. the questions that aren't being answered or asked throughout the process so far as we saw last week are how did this occur at the capitol in the first place? how is it that the capitol was able to be broken into? how is it after 9/11 with all the funding that went into the department of homeland security and making sure these targets were given some security, how is it that people were able to get into the capitol and breach that building? what was the process with nancy pelosi, for example, speaker pelosi, the mayor of washington, d.c. those questioned aren't being asked and answered. if they're interested in preventing something like this from happening ever again those are key questions that need to be asked and answered. >> dana: good to have you on the show, marie. two questions, one is to what katie is saying. would the committee have been more i guess considered more credible if they had allowed the republicans who wanted to be on the committee to be on it? that will be a question they'll have to deal with. those republicans won't be on the committee but making statements outside the committee room and media elsewhere. the other thing i wanted to mention. i saw dan pfeifer, he had the point that this hearing is not just a look back but is dealing with ongoing issues. he tried to list several people that he thought were trying to continue what the democrats are calling the big lie into even gubernatorial races they're running on that issue in pennsylvania. >> well dana, first there are republicans on this committee. liz cheney will probably likely could pay a very high political cost for this. the idea this committee is politically beneficial is not necessarily true in the mid-terms. you can't have people sitting on the committee when they're part of the people being investigated. members of congress, we know, because of the committee's work texting with the white house, actively promoting the big lie and asking the white house to keep promoting it as well trying to find a legal path quite frankly where there wasn't one, dana. and so i think there are two republicans on this committee and i think that's important going forward. there are a lot of questions this committee will answer. of course, january 6th did not happen in a vacuum. that's why so much of this history, what did donald trump know on election night? when was he told in those days and weeks between election night and january 6th that he lost? that's important context and important historical information to have. and finally to dan pfeifer's point it is an ongoing threat. we've seen far right extremist groups arrested just this week trying to interrupt a pride parade in idaho. this groups, the same groups that attacked the capitol are trying to foment unrest across the country. on the republican side a number of now mainstream republican nominees for positions that are up this november, for example in pennsylvania, the gubernatorial nominee, they embraced the big lie and they go further than donald trump. you have republicans running across the country, dana, pledging to not adhere to the will of the voters in upcoming elections because of this big lie that started on election night and continued through january 6th. it is an ongoing threat. >> dana: just to be clear, the group that was arrested outside the pride event in idaho, i understand that you are saying it's the same type of group as oath keepers but they were not in connection -- no connection saying president trump urged them to do that activity. >> no, i was talking about the future threat. president trump encouraged his supporters and these groups on january 6 and seen it with our own two eyes. in terms of the ongoing threat, these are the same groups donald trump supported and winked and nodded to and gave energy and air to online. these groups have now spun off. we see them continue to threaten communities across the country and so it is an ongoing threat that is bigger than january 6th. >> bill: joining our coverage now andy mccarthy. welcome back getting the full work out of you today. kevin mccarthy it should be pointed out offered republican members to sit on this panel and was rejected by nancy pelosi. some are suggesting republicans were wrong sided not to pursue some sort of independent investigation but you have dealt with legal trials all your professional life and would it not perhaps be more interesting to viewers if you had, let's say, a prosecution and a defense presentation of sorts during a hearing like this so people could debate it among themselves? it might actually draw more interest. >> if that is what you were really interested in, which is drawing people in, obviously the tension of a confrontation between different perspectives is what is interesting. the more important thing, i think about our system, is that we believe our adversarial system is based on the conviction that when that clash happens each side's position gets sharper and how we figure out what happened. having put bad guys away for a long time i can tell you that whether it's terrorists or mafia or scammers or what have you, we give everybody lawyers and we give an opportunity to be heard in court and to try to poke holes in the government's narrative. they do the same thing in an adversarial congressional hearing. i'm someone who believes it is important to get to the bottom of what happened on january 6th. i think the committee disserved the cause of having a legitimate -- politically legitimate committee investigation by the way this committee was staffed. >> dana: the man testifying today, there was a family emergency and will not testify at least not today. we believe everything is fine but with his family but he needed to be with his wife, of course. the question i had is i read this coverage this morning saying he might not be a friendly witness. friendly to who? >> well that's right. it's part of the problem with how this committee has been stripped of the type of legitimacy we've seen in previous special committees. we have investigated very divisive issues at very divisive times. the house has always honored the bipartisan tradition to have a balance of sides here. speaker pelosi really robbed the committee of that sense of legitimacy. not that there is not important work to be done or not that we don't want to see this evidence. most of us want greater transparency. but the lack of balance here is undermining the effort. so when you get to the question of who is he hostile to, those questions become magnified because how this committee has been turned into a muscle play by the speaker. it is really unfortunate. they have lost a lot. also this idea we're trying to prove the big lie again raises the question of motivation. we were told on the first day they would show new evidence of an actual coup and criminal conduct. that's not rearguing the big lie narrative. that's giving us evidence of a direct criminal connection between the president and the violence that occurred during that riot. >> dana: i just noted that in some reporting now from our team on the ground that liz cheney said to them that mr. stepan had testified by video and some of that will be shown today. >> bill: we're on stand by for that. stand by with us as well. in the meantime on your money this is no-brainer. gas more than $5 nationwide. because of that and a series of factors you have a sharp sell-off to begin the week. the dow taking another hit. investors rattled by friday's worse than expected inflation report. is china going back to the covid precautions? something we're watching as well. can wall street shake it off? right now we can't. down more than 2% in 45 minutes of trading. back on that and everything else as we continue. ition for strength and energy. woo hoo! ensure, complete balanced nutrition with 27 vitamins and minerals. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. ♪ ♪ your spirit is stronger than your highs and lows. your creativity can outshine any bad day. because you are greater than your bipolar i, and you can help take control of your symptoms - and ask about vraylar. some medicines only treat the lows or highs. once-daily vraylar is proven to treat depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar i in adults. full-spectrum relief for all bipolar i symptoms. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. call your doctor about unusual changes in behavior or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants can increase these in children and young adults. report fever, stiff muscles or confusion which may mean a life-threatening reaction, or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be permanent. high cholesterol and weight gain, and high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death, may occur. movement dysfunction and restlessness are common side effects. sleepiness and stomach issues are also common. side effects may not appear for several weeks. you are greater than your bipolar i. ask about vraylar and learn how abbvie could help you save. >> dana: check on wall street ahead of the fed meeting wednesday. what economists expecting the central bank to raise interest rates. right now the dow down 764 points. fox news correspondent ed lawrence is at the white house. >> the president and secretary -- he talked to a dnc fundraising event friday saying we'll live with this inflation for a while. it is going to come down gradually but we'll live with it for a while. the expectations from the market is the federal reserve will raise interest rates more than expected. the commerce and former tresh rear secretaries from republican and democrat administrations are saying a recession could be unavoidable. what we hear out of the white house is stay the course and blame. >> president biden: we've never seen anything like putin's tax on both food and gas. america should also understand our economy has unique strengths we can build on. the job market is the strongest it has been since world war ii. >> republicans saying there is a simple fix the president refuses to do. change course on energy policy. >> we have increased our dependence on foreign oil including russian oil because our lack of domestic energy policy under this administration. it is all tied together. this started when president biden took a negative view towards domestic energy production. that's just a fact. >> tomorrow the president will address afl-cio conference on his public schedule. the message in that address he is creating an economy that rewards work, not just wealth. we'll see how that message goes. >> dana: the dow now 750 down. >> bill: bring in connell mcshane from fox business. we save the best news for you. so you are the guy, all right? on screen stocks this year s&p down 20%, dow down 9, nasdaq 8%. don't look at your 401k now. red arrows across the board. total inflation 8.6% groceries, 12 and can be put lipstick on this bad boy. >> no. it is rough. the 8.6 on inflation. today is really more fallout from friday, right? the dow was down 880 and put 750 on top of that, s&p 500 broadest measure on the market is a bear market if it closed at this point. 20% off its high. what the 8.6% inflation told us is that inflation did not peak say in march because it is not like going into friday nobody thought inflation was a problem. the best case scenario was maybe it peaked. we saw the worst of it and it would level off slowly as the fed gradually raised interest rate and engineer what they describe as a soft landing. now we know that peak inflation is off the table completely and the soft landing will be much harder to engineer. >> dana: one of the things the white house keeps saying is it's not just president biden, it is other world leaders dealing with inflation. they point to europe saying it's not just us. how do you see that? >> well, it's not. both things can be true. what edward was reporting on in terms of what the white house could have done increasing domestic oil production is a fair criticism and backward looking. the comments you've seen recently are a concession that at this point there isn't much they can do. they won't come out and say that maybe we should have done more in the past which would be fair. bust -- but it is largely in the hands of the federal reserve now. will they raise interest rates by half a point as everybody expects or more aggressive and raise their key rate by 75 basis points? the market is pricing in a 1 in 4 chance of that unheard of just a few weeks ago. now that tells you where people are. they think that the fed needs to be more aggressive. >> bill: on this inflation question. i know europe is going higher just like we are. we were also told last week we're doing better -- our increase is much greater than europe. is that true? >> the increase in the inflation rate is much greater? >> bill: correct. >> they already had elevated inflation and gas prices. something they have come to be aware of and get used to over time. so the rate of increase we're seeing, i believe, is what you alluded to is probably greater here in the u.s. in terms of how everyday americans deal with it. think about it. we got used to relatively low inflation for a relatively long period of time. it has been a long time in this country for us to not have to deal with something like this. the shock to the system i think is a fair point can be a little greater when the rate is as sharp an increase especially if you are looking at the gas pump and what everybody the dealing with here. >> dana: you heard the president say when he spoke on saturday the unemployment rate is at record lows. while that's true, i understand that's something you want to promote. the fact is there aren't enough workers and we aren't growing and inflation is taking a bite out of things. if you have wages versus inflation you have wages increasing 5% but inflation at 8.6%. even i can do that math. >> the big thing most of the numbers we look at in economics are backward looking. we measured something that happened a month or two months ago and tell you what happened in that month. the question is what happens in the next few months. on that point about employment i think the worry now is we could start to see that change because think about where the market is taking the biggest hit in the technology sector, which of course was the area of the market that ran up the most when times were good. now the stocks are really selling off. we're starting to see signs from some of the big tech firms they will pull back on their employment because some of them may have overhired when times were good and now we start to see the layoffs slowly but surely. yes, employment is in a good spot now to your point a lot of the worker shortage has always been a big part of the story but i think there is worry creeping in it could start to change or has already started to change. >> dana: great to see you, thank you. >> bill: doing the dirty work for us. thank you. >> dana: we're awaiting the january 6 committee second public hearing set to get underway minutes from now and 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luck next time. but i haven't even thrown yet. you threw good money away when you bought those glasses. next time, go to america's best - where two pairs and a free exam start at just $79.95. can't beat that. can't beat this, either. book an exam today at americasbest.com >> dana: today's hearing on the capitol highiot is about to get underway starting with opening statements. let's go to chad pergram on capitol hill. more on today's hearing, hi, chad. >> bill: the testimony of former trump campaign manager bill stepian is key because of a family emergency. the committee wants to probe precisely what was being told the president about the election results. now they need to settle from second best his lawyer. they will play some video clips as a rebuttal from depositions the panel is pushing for potential prosecution of former president trump. >> i suppose our entire investigation is a referral of crimes both to the department of justice and to the american people because this is a massive assault on our -- on the machinery of american democracy. >> the committee says there was no path for the president to win and mr. trump knew that. democrats want to know more about gop members who requested pardons from former president trump after the riot. >> the committee has evidence that several members of congress did seek a pardon. you have representative perry refusing to comply with the bipartisan investigation into events of january 6. i believe that the committee would never make an allegation so serious without very substantial evidence to present to the american public. >> pennsylvania republican perry denies he sought a pardon and republicans are complaining about how the house set up the committee. >> never in the history of this country in the history of the house of representatives has a minority leader not been able to put on a select committee individuals he or she sell sected. >> nancy pelosi rejected several picks by mccarthy. >> bill: we have our panel here, a parade of voices here. thanks for being here. we're buying some time because we thought it would start 30 minutes ago. martha you first and get chad's reaction. it's important to remember the state of washington, d.c. in january of 2021, right? we're coming off this bruising election. you have the battle in georgia over two senate seats. it is winter. the covid precautions were on full effect. they were in full bloom in washington, d.c. and martha, i think d.c. was empty. there were no tourists. and sometimes very few politicians for the capitol police to guard. you wonder like we've talked about and many other stories related to covid about how many people on their back foot when they would normally be perhaps more forward in their stance and their position during a time like this during january 6th. i just wonder what you reflect on that right now as we look back in time. >> you make a great point. it is important to put yourself back in the moment. we were also coming off the blm protests we had seen across the country as well. so you did have a very different security footprint. also worth remembering when you go through the timeline of the conversations between the mayor of washington, d.c. and members of congress, all of the people involved in security, there was a lot of back and forth and concern about what might happen january 6, whether or not the national guard should be on the steps of the capitol and in hindsight that's what should have happened. you had the chief of the pentagon saying he didn't want to -- he didn't like the optics of bringing in the national guard to protect them. as we saw quite clearly the member of the capitol police and we saw the video on the assault on her she had a bike rack in front of her while 1,000 people rough numbers here, chargeed across that. there was clearly a lack of security at the capitol. one other thing i would mention in big picture as we look at all of this. you think about the constitution, the founding fathers, the checks and balances we witnessed, right? you had a president who did not want to give up the presidency. who believed he had won the election, right? around him you have a vice president who refused to give in to that desire. you have governors across the country who also did the same thing. you have judges who heard cases who also did the same thing. you can look at this in some ways as a test of the system that is set up to make sure that checks and balances work against someone wanting to continue power when they have lost an election. and in some ways hold it up as an example of why all the structures were put in place. >> bill: chad, on the first point about security at the capitol. you were there that morning, that afternoon, that evening. how would you characterize the status of security in washington, d.c. on that day? >> i had a couple of conversations in the days leading up to january 6th about what would the posture be on capitol here. i talked twice with the former house sergeant-at-arms later fired after the riot and once who was the senate sergeant-at-arms. the thing i kept hearing from them and other security sources is that they were concerned about a lone wolf. that term was used several different times. the capitol being empty and no one around. people were in and out all the time. usual security postures here. there had been other protests on behalf of the former president on the weeks prior to this and they expected something like that, nothing that they expected to be violent. you have to remember during the summer of 2020 post george floyd where they ringed off the capitol a little bit here. not like what we saw after the riot but put extra security detail up here and prevented people from getting close to the building. you don't need a pass or anything, you can come and go across the plaza as freely as you want. there wasn't the concern. but bill, the reason i looked into that is what i was hearing from other quarters and sources is that they thought this might get a little rough. i don't any anybody truly expected a riot of the magnitude we saw but what i was hearing didn't seem to comport with what i was hearing from other sources. i should also say that i was hearing from senior members of the house republican leadership telephone calls i had with them leading right up to january 6th. i said do you expect to actually contest some of these votes on the floor? one senior republican said to me no, the question is where would that go? we don't expect it to flip the election. that has been decided. joe biden will be the president and suddenly that conversation switched inside the house republican conference and why you had more than 140 house and senate republicans vote against certification on january 6th even after the riot, bill. >> dana: jonathan turley one of the things that liz cheney told the folks outside the reporters is that bill stepan the former campaign person for donald trump was subpoenaed to testify. there is a family emergency and he won't make it today. the lawyer will testify on his behalf. one of the things they did were all these video depositions. so you will hear probably from him directly in the video. tell me about that in terms of the history of these types of hearings. i've worked on capitol hill in the late 90s. this is fairly new to me. >> it's not very compelling because these depositions are obviously edited. there is already a complaint about the first day of the hearing when they quoted donald trump in his rally speech telling people they should march on the capitol but cut out his statement they should do so peacefully. that was one of those sort of flags that go up again about the lack of bipartisanship in the mack-up of the committee. it is particularly ironic you showed that flip of jamie raskin saying this is a criminal issue. we think there is a basis for prosecution because what was done that day was an assault on democracy. raskin used the same law to vote against the certification of donald trump. the chairman of the committee, bennie thompson, used the same law to oppose the certification in 2004. there is a federal law that allows it. democrats have used it. that can't be the basis of the criminal charge and if you are alleging that he committed incitement. i said before the supreme court cases make that a very difficult charge to make. the d.c. attorney general got a lot of press saying he was going to investigate and potentially charge the president for incitement. he never did. why? it's not like he likes the former president. why didn't he charge? the answer is, it's not as easy as these members suggest. >> bill: katie, come back to the conversation here. one thing i was keen on learning before this hearing began, maybe we'll get it and maybe we won't. i wanted to know if this committee could tie two individuals together that had contact, say, on january 5th, who stated clearly that their intention was to go inside the capitol building on january 6th. that hasn't happened yet. it may not happen at all. i am just wondering about if that evidence is lacking, does that tell us something about the intentions of those who came to washington, d.c. and gathered on the 5th and 6th of january? >> well, of course it would tell us the intentions but bill, there is a different between someone going into the capitol that was a building open to the american public and someone being violent and going into that building. unfortunately democrats have mixed the two together. they've made sure that anybody who went to president trump's rally that day and went to the speech and didn't go to the capitol or went to the capitol after all the violence took place they need to be worried about the f.b.i. coming and knocking on their door and they will be treated in the same fashion as those who were violent at the front of the line. but it is very obvious this is a political exercise. jonathan turley brought up jamie raskin voting against the certification of donald trump's presidency. there were dozens of democrats who refused to go to his inauguration and claimed he was illegitimate elected by russia and maxine waters told her supporters and democrats across the country they needed to get up in the faces of trump supporters and cabinet members. the rewriting of history to say somehow standing up and saying you don't want to certify this election or questions about the way the election was carried out is not a new concept and democrats have been doing it for at least a decade. >> dana: marie, one of the things that some of the republicans have said last week including kevin mccarthy was there hadn't been any prime time hearings on inflation or on the surging crime problem across america and we're in a mid-term election year, a few months out from the mid-terms and seems at this point -- things don't look great for the democrats to say the least. how do you respond that the america's people's mind is focused on gas prices are high and wages aren't keeping up with the administration and there is nothing but the fed to help them out. >> the administration is addressing all the issues. the fact of the president of the united states tried to prevent a peaceful transition of power and encouraged his supporters to violently attack the capitol where his own vice president was in harm's way. look, i think that merits as much attention as inflation. congress can focus on many different things at once and martha is right. in the fact that whe said our institutions did hold. she is right and i think we're grateful for that. one of the reasons this committee has been stood up is because we're concerned that in the future if this happens again they won't hold. that we haven't learned the lessons. we see the candidates running on the gop side across the country who pledged to do away with those institutions, have undercut them every step of the way. january 6th the lessons from that didn't end on january 6th. i think we're concerned that the institutions won't hold the next time if we don't take this time right now to learn the lessons and get the facts in front of the american people. >> dana: the witness, chris stirewalt will talk as an expert. a former colleague here. you have capitol hill police officer harry dunn and others. there are a few more representatives here as you can see the cameras are all there. one of the things where you are called and asked to testify and you have to go and do it and we'll see here as the members start to file in. >> bill: people in a holding pattern is how it's been described. we're watching that inside the room. the press and guests and congressional members sitting in the back of the room. people chitchatting and reading off their phones. you see some on the camera here. the same amount of people inside the room as there was during the first hearing last thursday night. the delay, bill stepan's attorney will be seated behind the witness stand. his wife has gone into labor and he will not be there in person. however, he has videotape testimony that he delivered prior that we can see. >> dana: congratulations on this baby. >> bill: do it healthy, too, right? let's take a pause here and allow the fox stations across the country to join us as we move toward the second public hearing. the second of six we are told. could go more than that. we'll see in the six public hearings expected to go back into prime time. see what happens when that rolls around. some of these committee members today their intention is to show that people around donald trump at the time late 2020, early 2021 saying he can't win and that it is over. this is fox news special coverage the second hearing, second public hearing in the house select committee's investigation of the january 6th capitol hill riot. welcome back to our coverage. we watch the committee room in washington, d.c. i'm bill hemmer. thank you for joining us. >> dana: i'm dana perino. right now multiple public hearings will take place over the course of the next few weeks. today the hearing will focus on claims of widespread voter fraud in the 2020 election. beginning on election day and then culminating with the riot on january 6. >> bill: we anticipate previously unseen documents. perhaps some video and audio. earlier this -- we'll hear from four witnesses we believe through the course of this hearing which should last two hours. >> dana: here you have the chair of the committee going to kick this off here and follow close behind is liz cheney from wyoming. she has been stalwart in her opinions from the beginning and now she is going to work with bennie thompson on this and get it going. chris stirewalt is the first witness, a former colleague here at fox news and was here the night the election was called. >> bill: martha maccallum, katie pavlich, marie harf, jonathan turley and great legal minds and analysis. jonathan turley, question to you. we'll go two hours, maybe a bit more. will it be effective in your view? >> well, i think the effectiveness has already been reduced because of the lack of bipartisanship that has been much talked about. but the question is effective as to what? when speaker pelosi was asked what does she want from this -- these hearings she said a narrative. the emphasis is to show that it was a big lie. that president trump lost the election. the problem is most americans got to that point two years ago. >> bill: thank you, andy mccarthy stand by and let's drop in to bennie thompson, democrat from mississippi chairing the committee. >> pursuant to regulation 10 the chair announces the committee's approval to release the deposition material presented during today's hearing. good morning. last week the select committee laid out a preview of our initial findings about the conspiracy over seeing and directed by donald trump. to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election and block the transfer of power, a scheme unprecedented in american history. my colleagues and i don't want to spend time talking about our failures during these hearings but as someone who has run for office a few times, i can tell you at the end of a campaign, it all comes down to the numbers. the numbers tell you the winner and the loser. for the most part, the numbers don't lie. but if something doesn't add up with the numbers, you go to court to get resolution. and that's the end of the line. we accept those results. that's what it means to respect the rule of law. that's what it means to seek elective office in our democracy. because those numbers aren't just numbers, they are votes. they are your votes. they are the will and the voice of the people. and the very least we should expect from any person seeking a position of public trust is the acceptance of the will of the people, win or lose. donald trump didn't. he didn't have the numbers. he went to court. he still didn't have the numbers. he lost. but he betrayed the trust of the american people. he ignored the will of the voters. he lied to his supporters and the country. and he tried to remain in office after the people had voted him out. and the courts upheld the will of the people. this morning we'll tell the story of how donald trump lost an election and knew he lost an election. and as a result of his loss, decided to wage an attack on our democracy. an attack on the american people by trying to rob you of your voice in our democracy and in doing so lit the fuse that led to the horrific violence of january 6th when a mob of his supporters stormed the capitol sent by donald trump to stop the transfer of power. today my colleague from california, ms. lofgren and eyewitnesses will detail the select committee's findings on these matters but first i will recognize our distinguished vice chair, miss cheney of wyoming, for any opening statement she would care to offer. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. last week as the chairman noted our committee began outlining a seven-part plan overseen by president trump to overturn the 2020 election. today we will begin looking at the initial part of that plan. president trump's effort to convince millions of americans that the election was stolen from him by overwhelming fraud. a federal court has already reviewed elements of the committee's evidence on this point and said this, quote, in the months following the election, numerous credible sources from the president's inner circle to agency leadership appeared statisticians informed president trump and dr. eastman that there was no evidence of election fraud, close quote. sufficient to overturn the 2020 presidential election. the court's opinion documents each of the principle reasons for that conclusion and i would urge all those watching to read it. today we will begin to show the american people some of our evidence. today you will hear much more from a former attorney general bill barr's recorded testimony. and you will hear in greater detail what others in the department told president trump, that his claims of election fraud were nonsense. you will also hear much more from president trump's own campaign experts who also concluded his fraud claims could not be supported. let me focus on just three points now. first, you will hear first-hand testimony that the president's campaign advisors urged him to await the counting of votes and not to declare victory on election night. the president understood even before the election that many more biden voters had voted by mail because president trump ignored the advice of his campaign experts and told his supporters only to vote in person. donald trump knew before the election that the counting of those mail-in ballots in several states would not begin until late in the day and would not be complete for multiple days. this was expected, reported, and widely known. you will also hear testimony that president trump rejected the advice of his campaign experts on election night and instead followed the course recommended by an apparently inebriated rudy giuliani to just claim he won and insist that the vote counting stop. -- he falsely told the american people the election was not legitimate. in his words, a major fraud. millions of americans believed him. second, pay attention to what donald trump and his legal team said repeatedly about dominion voting machines. far flung conspiracies with the deceased venezuela communist allegedly pulling the strings. this was, quote, complete nonsense as bill barr said. president trump's own campaign advisors, his department of justice, and his cybersecurity experts all told him the same thing. here, for example, is white house lawyer eric herschmann. his view was shared by many of the trump team who we interviewed. >> i thought the dominion stuff was -- i never saw any evidence to sustain those allegations whatsoever. >> and third, as mike pence's staff started to get a sense for what donald trump had planned for january 6th, they called the campaign experts to give them a briefing on election fraud and all the other election claims. on january 2, the general counsel of the trump campaign, matthew morgan, the campaign's chief lawyer, summarized what the campaign had concluded weeks earlier, that none of the arguments about fraud or anything else could actually change the outcome of the election. >> generally discussed on that topic was whether the fraud, administration abuse or irregularities would that be outcome determinative? and i think everyone's assessment in the room at least among the staff, was that it was not sufficient to be outcome determinant. >> as is obvious, this was before the attack on the capitol. the trump campaign legal team knew there was no legitimate argument fraud, irregularities or anything to overturn the election. and yet president trump went ahead with his plans for january 6th anyway. mr. chairman, hundreds of our countrymen have faced criminal charges, many are serving criminal sentences because they believed what donald trump said about the election and they acted on it. they came to washington, d.c. at his request. they marched on the capitol and his request and hundreds of them besieged and invaded the building at the heart of our constitutional republic. as one conservative editorial board put it recently, quote, mr. trump betrayed his supporters by conning them on january 6th and he is still doing it. another conservative editorial board that has long supported president trump said last week donald trump, quote, won't stop insisting that the 2020 was stolen even though he has offered no proof that that is true. and this, donald trump now quote clings to more fantastical theories such as the debunked 2000 mule. even as recounts in arizona, georgia, and wisconsin confirmed trump lost. those are the correct conclusions to draw from the evidence gathered by this committee. we have much more evidence to show the american people on this point than we can reasonably show in one hearing. but today we will begin. thank you, mr. chairman. i yield back. >> without objection, the chair recognizes the woman from california ms. lofgren on opening statement. >> thank you, mr. chairman. in our opening hearing we gave an overview of our investigation into the january 6th attack. the plot to overthrow the election was complex and had many parts which we'll explore in remaining hearings but today we examine the false narrative that the 2020 election was, quote, stolen. former president trump's plan to overturn the election relied on a sustained effort to deserve millions of americans with knowingly false claims of election fraud. all elements of the plot relied on convincing his supporters about these false claims. today we'll demonstrate the 2020 election was not stolen. the american people elected president joe biden. we'll present evidence that mr. trump's claims of election fraud were false, that he and his close advisors knew those claims were false, but they continued to peddle them anyway right up until the moment before a mob of trump supporters attacked the capitol. we'll also show that the trump campaign used these false claims of election fraud to raise hundreds of millions of dollars from supporters who were told their donations were for the legal fight in the courts. but the trump campaign didn't use the money for that. the big lie was also a big rip-off. the former president laid the ground work for these false claims well in advance of the election. as early as april 2020, mr. trump claimed that the only way he could lose an election would be as a result of fraud. >> you know the things we're bundling and all the things we're happening with votes by mail where thousands of votes are gathered and i'm not going to say which party does it but thousands of votes are gathered and they come in and dumped in a location and then all of a sudden you lose elections that you think you'll win. the only way we'll lose this election is if the election is rigged. remember that. the only way we'll lose this election. this is going to be a fraud like you have never seen. did you see what's going on? look at west virginia. mailmen selling the ballots. they're being sold and dumped in river. this is a horrible thing for our country. this is not going to end well. >> mr. trump decided even before the election that regardless of the facts and the truth, if he lost the election he would claim it was rigged. mr. trump was right about one thing, it did not end well. on election night mr. trump claimed even before the votes were counted that his loss was the result of fraud. thursday we had testimony from attorney general barr about the department of justice investigation of mr. trump's fraud claims. barr told trump directly that his claims were b.s. yet after hearing the truth and that warning when the a.g., mr. trump continued to pedal the false claims of fraud. you'll hear detailed testimony from attorney general barr describing the various election fraud claims the department of justice investigated. he will tell you how he told mr. trump repeatedly that there was no merit to those claims. mr. barr will tell us that mr. trump's election night claims of fraud were made without regard to the truth and before it was even possible to look for evidence of fraud. attorney general barr wasn't alone. you will see and hear today other department of justice officials and senior advisors to mr. trump that they told him the claims he was making were not supported by evidence. the election fraud claims were false. mr. trump's closest advisors knew it. mr. trump knew it. that didn't stop him from pushing the false claims and urging his supporters to, quote, fight like hell to, quote, take back their country. after he lost the election, various legal challenges were made. you will hear testimony today from a renowned republican election litigation lawyer who will explain the normal process by which candidates challenge an election. rather than accept the results of the election and the decisions of the courts, mr. trump pursued a different strategy. he tried to convince the american people the election had been stolen. many of his supporters believed him and many still believe him today. the attack on january 6th was a direct and predictable result of mr. trump's decision to use false claims of election fraud to overturn the election and to cling to power. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> thank you very much. i now welcome our first witness. we're joined today by former fox news politics editor chris stirewalt. bill stepan, president trump's former campaign manager, was subpoenaed to be here and in washington this morning prepared to testify. kevin moreno, his attorney, is here with us today. thank you, mr. moreno, for coming. and he was advised -- he has advised us that mr. stepan's wife went into labor this morning. he unexpectedly had to travel to be with his wife and we wish him the best. due to the depth and rigor of our investigation, we have several hours of his testimony from when we interviewed him in february and we will be presenting that testimony today. i will now swear in our witness. the witness will please stand and raise his right hand. do you swear, affirm on the penalty of perjury that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? thank you, you may be seated. let the record reflect the witness answered in the affirmative. i now recognize myself for questions. i want to start by showing a video that tells the story of what was going on in the trump white house on election night in november of 2020. >> you remember where you were on the night of the election, november 3? >> i was at the white house. >> do you know where specifically over the course of that night you spent your time within the white house? >> there was an event that was organized in the residence so i moved between the residence, a room off the residence where some family members were. >> i take it the president was upstairs in the resident? >> i was upstairs. we were on the first floor, not upstairs. we were with -- mostly with ivanka and her brothers and a couple of other people coming in and out. >> can you describe the atmosphere? what were people expecting that night when you got to the white house? >> i think that there was for people who showed up there on election night, a more positive environment. i think people were a little nervous not knowing what was going to happen with the red wave or the red mirage as the debate was being carried out. >> fox news decision desk is calling arizona for joe biden. that is a big guess biden campaign. >> arizona called, do you remember that? >> i do. >> what do you remember happening where you were when arizona was called? >> i -- there was surprise at the call. >> who was surprised? >> most everyone in the room. >> with you being one of them? >> yes. >> did that shift the atmosphere and attitude in the white house? >> completely. >> how so, can you describe that? >> because fox news was the first one to go out and say that. >> was it anger directed toward fox news for making that call more so than disappointment that maybe the campaign lost arizona? >> all of the above. >> anger and grand disappointment? >> both disappointment with fox and concern that maybe our data or our numbers weren't accurate. >> were you in the white house residence during the sort of past midnight, early morning hours of november 4th? >> yes. it went beyond midnight. yes. >> do you remember rudy giuliani being at the white house on election night and into the early hours the next morning? >> i do. >> what do you remember about when he came? >> he -- he was -- i had heard that he was upstairs, you know, in the aforementioned reception area and he was looking to talk to the president. and it was suggested that he come talk to several of us down off the map room. >> you said you had heard that mr. giuliani wanted to talk to the president and directed your way. did you talk to him? >> i did. >> what was that conversation? >> a lot of conversations were directed my way. a few of us, myself, jason miller, justin clark, mark meadows, gathered in a room off the map room to listen to whatever rudy presumably wanted to say to the president. >> was there anyone in the conversation who in your observation had had too much to drink? >> rudy giuliani. >> what was your observation about his potential intoxication during that discussion about what the president should say when he addressed the nation on election night? >> he was intoxicated but i do not know that his level of intoxication when he spoke with the president, for example. >> were you part of any discussions with the people i mentioned, about whether the president should make any sort of speech on election night? >> i mean, i spoke to the president. they may have been president. but i spoke to the president several times that night. >> there are suggestions by i believe it was mayor giuliani to say we won it out right? >> it was far too early to be making any calls like that. ballots were still being counted. ballots would still be counted for days and it was far too early to be making any proposition like that. >> i remember saying that to the best of my memory i would say we should not go declare victory until we had a better sense of the numbers. >> okay. can you be more specific about that conversation in ular what mayor giuliani said, your response and then anybody else in the room's response? >> i think the fact that mayor giuliani was saying we won it. they are stealing it from us. where did all the votes come from? we need to go say that we won. and essentially that anyone who didn't agree with that position was being weak. >> what was your view at the time as to what he should or shouldn't say? >> i don't know that i had a firm view as to what he should say in that circumstance. the results were still being counted. it was becoming clear that the race would not be called on election night. >> my belief, my recommendation was to say that votes were still being counted. it was too early to tell. too early to call the race. but, you know, we -- the race we ran and we, you know, think we're in good position. we'll have more to say about this the next day or the next day, whatever we would say. >> did anybody who was a part of that conversation disagree with your message? >> yes. >> who was that? >> the president disagreed with that. i don't recall the particular words. he thought i was wrong. he told me so. and that they were going to -- he was going to go in a different direction. >> this is a fraud on the american public. this is an embarrassment to our country. we were getting ready to win this election. frankly, we did win this election. [cheering and applause] >> mr. stirewalt, did president trump have any basis to declare victory on november 4th, 2020? >> thank you. >> he testified that president trump had no basis for declaring victory at that point in time. >> my belief, my recommendation was to say that votes were still being counted, it was too early to tell, too early to call the race, but, you know, we -- the race we ran and we -- you know, we think we're in good position. we'll have more to say about this the next day or the next day, whenever we had something to say. >> thank you. mr. stirewalt, after the votes were counted, who won the presidential election of 2020? >> joseph biden junior of the great state of delaware. >> thank you. that's the bottom line. we've had an election, mr. trump lost, but he refused to accept the results of the democratic process pursuant to section 5c8 of house resolution 503. i now recognize the gentleman woman from california ms. lofgren for questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. stirewalt, i would like you to explain a term that was thrown around a lot during the election and that's the so-called red mirage. what does that mean? >> so in the 40 or 50 years, let's say, that americans have increasingly chosen to vote by mail or early or absentee, democrats prefer that method of voting more than republicans do. so basically in every election, republicans win election day and democrats win the early vote. and then you wait and start counting. it depends on which ones you count first. usually it's election day votes that get counted first and the republicans shoot ahead and the process of unbinding those votes. you have to wait for all of that to come in. so in every election, certainly a national election, you expect to see the republican with a lead but it is not really a lead. when you put together a jigsaw puzzle it doesn't matter which piece you put in first it ends up with the same image. for us who cares. that's because no candidate had ever tried to avail themselves of this quirk in the election counting system. we had gone to pains and proud of the pains we went to to make sure that we were informing viewers that this was going to happen because the trump campaign and the president had made it clear they were going the try to exploit this anomaly and we knew it would be bigger because the percentage of early votes was higher, right? we went from 45% of the votes being early and absentee to because of the pandemic it increased 50%. we knew it would be longer and more. we wanted to keep telling viewers look, the number that you see here is sort of irrelevant because it's only a small percentage of these votes. >> the red mirage is what you expected on election night. >> it happens every time. >> i want to play a clip of attorney general bill barr who also explains what was expected to happen on election night. >> right out of the box on election night, the president claimed that there was major fraud underway. this happened as far as i could tell before there was actually any potential evidence. it seemed to be based on the dynamic that -- that at the end of the evening a lot of democratic votes came in which changed the vote counts in certain states. that seemed to be the basis for this broad claim that there was major fraud. and i didn't think much of that because people had been talking for weeks and everyone understood for weeks that that was going to be what happened on election night. >> mr. stepien couldn't be with us today and it is proper for him to be with his wife because she is having their child. he also had a discussion about the president about the red mirage. it would be a long night and early votes would favor him but lots more votes would be counted over the course of the night and the days after. so let's play clip one from our interview with him. >> i recounted back to that conversation with him in which i said, like i said in 2016 it would be a long night, i told him in 2020 that, you know, it would be a process again as, you know, the early returns are going to be positive and we are going to be watching the returns of ballots as they rolled in thereafter. >> is it fair to say you were trying to present what you thought would be a realistic picture what might happen over the course of that night being election night. >> that night and the days that followed. i always -- i always, you know, i always told the president the truth and, you know, i think he expected that from me and i told him it would be a process. it was going to be, you know, you know, see how it turned out. so i -- just like i did in 2016 i did the same thing in 2020. >> so let's watch a short clip of president trump speaking after he received that information from his campaign advisors. >> we want all voting to stop. we don't want them to find any ballots at 4:00 in the morning and add them to the list. >> so when former president trump said that, it contradicted what his advisors had warned would happen. we all know that mail-in ballots played an important role in the 2020 election. however, president trump continuously discouraged mail in voting. mr. stepien was so concerned about the president's position of mail-in voting that in the summer of 2020 he met with president trump, along with house minority leader, kevin mccarthy. let's play clip four. >> meeting that was had, in particular i invited kevin mccarthy to join the meeting. he being of like mind on the issue with me. in which we made our case for why we believed mail-in voting got to be a bad thing for his campaign. but, you know, the president's mind was made up and you understand, you know, how many times, you know, to go to the well on a particular topic. >> i understand. tell me more about the argument that you and mr. mccarthy made to the president in that meeting as to why it wasn't a bad thing. that mail-in voting was available. >> largely two pillars to that argument. both of which i previously mentioned. one, leaving a good deal to chance. urging your voters to vote only on election day leaves a lot to chance. that's a, b also previously mentioned the fact that the trump campaign, republican national committee and the republican party had an advantage of a grassroots workers and volunteers on the ground that would allow, you know, an advantage to enhance return rates of ballots that were mailed. those were the two pillars of the argument. >> what if anything do you recall representative mccarthy saying during that meeting? >> we were echoing the same argument. his words echoed mine and vice versa on those two topics. >> mr. stirewalt, you were at the decision desk at fox news on election night and you called arizona early for president biden, which was controversial. how did you make that call and where did you think the race stood in the early hours of the next day? >> well, it was really controversial to our competitors who we beat so badly by making the correct call first. our decision desk was the best in the business and i was very proud to be a part of it. because we had partnered with the associated press and the national opinion research center at the university of chicago, thanks to my colleague and friend, had built a wonderful device for forecasting the outcomes of elections. we had a different set of data than our competitors did. we had more research and a great team and a different system. what you are waiting to see is do the actual votes match up with the expectations in the poll. the real votes are testing the quality of your poll in targeted precincts and places. let me tell you, our poll in arizona was beautiful and it was doing just what we wanted it to do and cooking up just right and at some point -- i forget exactly who, but at some point it became clear that arizona was getting ready to make a call. so we around -- my boss said we aren't making any call until everybody says yes. that was always our policy. you have to understand in this room you have the best. people from academia, democrats, republicans, a broad cross section of people who worked together for a decade and really serious about this stuff. we knew it would be a consequential call. it was one of five states that really mattered. we knew it would be significant to call any one of those five but we already knew trump's chances were small and getting smaller based on what we had seen. we were able to make the call early and able to beat the competition. we looked around the room, everybody says yay and on we go. by the time we found out how much everybody was freaking out and losing their minds over the call we were already calling the next state. we were to georgia, north carolina, looking at these other states. so we thought it was -- we were pleased but not surprised. >> i see. after the election as of november 7th, in you are judgment what were the chances of president trump winning the election? >> after that point? >> yes. >> none. i guess it is always possible that you could have, you know, a truck load of ballots be found somewhere i suppose. but once you get into this space, you know, ahead of today i thought about what are the largest margins that could ever be overturned by a recount and the normal kind of -- the kind of stuff we heard mike pence talking about sounding like a normal republican who said we'll keep every challenge. nothing like that. in a recount you are talking about hundreds of votes. when we think about calling a race, one of the things that we would think about is, is it outside the margin of a recount? when we think about that margin we think about in modern history you are talking about 1,000 votes, 1500 votes at the way, way outside. normally you are talking about hundreds of votes, maybe 300 votes that are going to change. the idea through any normal process in any of these states. remember, he had to do it three times. three states to change. in order to do that, you are at -- better off to play the powerball than to have that come in. >> on november 7th the other major news outlets called the race for president biden. now mr. stepien told the committee he thought the odds were very, very, very bleak and held a meeting with the president that same day. let's show clip eight, video clip eight. >> the trajectory of the race on election night, trump ahead in many states and as the week wore on as the 4th and 5th and vote by mail votes were tabulated trump's lead grew more narrow and then in some places biden surpassed trump into the vote totals so as the week wore on, as we paid attention to those numbers, multiple times a day internally, you know, i was feeling less confident for sure. >> what was your view of the state of the election at that point? >> you know, very, very, very bleak. we told him, the group that went over there, outlined, you know, my belief and chances for success at this point and then we pegged it at 5, maybe 10% based on recounts that, you know, other -- were automatically initiated or could be initiated based on, you know, realistic legal challenges, not all the legal challenges that eventually were pursued. but, you know, it was -- you know, my belief that was 5 to 10%, not a very good optimistic outlook. >> now, as president trump and others continued to claim that the election was stolen, there were lawyers who were a part of the campaign, campaign lawyers who were responsible for investigating the fraud claims. that includes alex cannon who could not validate the claims that were being made, including those being made by the president. let's roll video 15. >> -- 13. >> this is an email, two emails, first is from alex cannon to you and faith mcpherson and you mark meadows, justin clark and jason miller. the subject being a to z federal i.d. voters. if you look at the original email bill, we completed the az analysis you requested. because of the substantial uncertainty surrounding the databases this is a highly unreliable way to identify ineligible voters. can you explain the task that you gave to ms. cannon for this arizona analysis? >> sure. previously i described some of my frustration with some of the claims that people would throw at president trump regarding, you know, you need to look at this. this happened in this state or that happened in that state and it would be, you know, those would flow to us. i talked about that before, i think. you know, this is an example of that. i recall in arizona someone had thrown out, i believe this to be his claim, that there were thousands of illegal citizens, people not eligible to vote, having cast their ballots in arizona. someone had thrown out that claim to president trump and with the margins being as close as they were, that could potentially matter. so this wild claim is thrown out which on its face didn't seem realistic or possible to me. i asked alex to look at the, you know, the claim and i haven't read the full email but i recall the response to that. the reality of that it was not illegal citizens voting in the election. they were overseas voters voting in the election. people who were eligible to vote. >> when these findings were passed up the chain to president trump, he became frustrated and he replaced the campaign's legal team. let's play clip 14. >> the president, it was during the second week, where things like -- where he was growing increasingly unhappy with -- of his team, you know, me. i was less involved at this point, but still me. growing increasingly unhappy with justin clark and that paved the way for justin to be moved out and others moved in as the person in charge of the legal side of the campaign and for all intents and purposes -- [inaudible] >> now when mr. stepien became campaign manager he was the second trump campaign manager for the 2020 race and there were only about 115 days until election day. let's play the video. >> i inherited a campaign that was -- the day i was hired was i believe president trump's low point in the 2020 daily average polling against president biden. it was a campaign at a low point in the polls. it was structurally and fiscally deficient. you know, there was a great deal wrong with the campaign in both of those -- in both of those areas. so most of my day was spent fixing what -- i think i took over with 115 days left in the campaign. most of my time was spent fixing the things that could be fixed with 115 days left in the campaign. >> now mr. stepien has been in the campaign field a long time and he worked for lots of different candidates and campaigns. he testified to this committee about his concerns given the claims that mr. giuliani and ms. powell and their team were making publicly. let's play clip 15. >> okay. it was important for you to pull back just for your own professional reputation. you didn't want to be associated with some of what you were hearing from the giuliani team and others that this stepped in in the wake of your departure? >> i didn't mind being categorized. there were two groups. we called them my team and rudy's team. i didn't mind as being characterized as team normal as reporters started to do at that point in time. i said hours ago early on that i've been doing this for a long time. 25 years and i've span political ideologies to bush and christie and i can work for a lot of varied candidates and politicians. but the situation where -- i think along the way i built up a pretty good, i hope, good reputation for being honest and professional and i didn't think what was happening was necessarily honest or professional at that point in time so that led to me stepping away. >> so the president did get rid of team -- i would like to play a clip saying the president found the people he needed to perpetuate his claims of fraud. >> they saw a big truck bringing in 100,000 ballots in garbage cans and waste paper baskets, in cardboard boxes and in shopping makts. and every single one of them was for biden because they were being notified by smart matics in frankfurt that biden was way behind and we can prove every single thing i just said. if you gave me the paper ballots i could probably turn around each one of these. if you let me examine each one of those ballots i would pull out enough that were fraudulent that it would shake the hell out of the country. >> you can set and run an algorithm to take is aert percentage of votes from president trump and flip them to president biden which we might never have uncovered had the votes for president trump not been so overwhelming in so many of these states that it broke the algorithm. >> i remember that one of the things mark said at some point was you can't show an actual vote was flipped, which i found at the time to be a remarkable assertion because -- because you don't have to have the gun to see the body lying on the floor bleeding out with five bullet holes in it was killed by a gun. >> what they were proposing i thought was nuts. the theory was also completely nuts. it was a combination of italians, germans, different things they were floating around as to who was involved and chavez and the venezuela, affidavit from somebody who says they wrote a software and something with the philippines. all over the radar. >> did you ever share your view of mr. giuliani. did you ever share your perspective about him to the president? >> i guess -- yes. >> tell me what you said. >> not the approach i would take if i was you. >> how did he react? how did president trump react when you shared that view with him? >> he said i have confidence in rudy. >> i think i had conversations with probably all of our counsel who were signed up to assist on election day as they disengaged with the campaign. the general consensus was that the law firms were not comfortable making the argument that rudy giuliani was making publicly. i seem to recall that i had a similar conversation with most all of them. >> i made it clear i did not agree with the idea of saying the election was stolen and putting out this stuff which i told president was bullshit and, you know, i didn't want to be a part of it and that's one of the reasons that went into me deciding to leave when i did. >> even sidney powell, defending herself in a defamation lawsuit brought by dominion voting systems, argued that quote, no reasonable person would conclude that her statements were truly statements of fact. mr. chairman, i yield back. >> i thank the witness for joining us today. the first panel is now dismissed. >> you are free to leave. >> without objection we recognize ms. lofgren. >> thank you, mr. chairman. last week we presented the testimony of former attorney general bill barr, who testified before this committee. today we present additional evidence, including his testimony that former president trump started making claims of election fraud immediately after the election and that barr concluded the claims were untrue. now due to the length of attorney general barr's testimony we'll only include relevant portions at the hearing today. so let's play the video. >> the department, in fact, when we received specific and credible allegations of fraud, made an effort to look into these to satisfy ourselves that they were without merit. and i was in the posture of trying to figure out -- it was an avalanche of all these allegations of fraud that built up over a number of days and it was like playing whack-a-mole. something would come up one day and the next day another issue. i was influenced by the early claims that i understood were completely bogus and silly and usually based on complete misinformation. and so i didn't consider the quality of claims going out of the box to get me any feeling there was really substance here. >> for the first time since the election, the attorney general spoke personally with the president on november 23 at the white house. let's play the video, please. >> so on november 23 i hadn't spoken to the president since the election and since the middle of october, roughly. it was getting awkward because he had lost the election and i hadn't said anything to him. so they said it's time you come over here and so i came over to meet with the president in the oval office and meadows and cipollone were there and the president -- this is leading up to this conversation with kushner. the president said there had been major fraud and that as soon as the facts were out the results of the election would be reversed. and he went on this for quite a while, as he is prone to do, and then he got to something that i was expecting, which is to say that apparently the department of justice doesn't think that it has a role of looking into these fraud claims. and i said that has to be the campaign that raises that with the state and the department doesn't take sides in elections. and the department is not an extension of your legal team. our role is to investigate fraud. we'll look at something if it is credible and could have affected the outcome of the election and we're doing that. it is just not -- they're just not meritorious on panning out. jared was there with dan scavino who ran the president's social media and who i believe is a reasonable guy and i said how long is he going to carry on with this stolen election stuff? where will this go? by that time meadows had caught up with me and leaving the office and caught up with me and said that -- he said look, i think that he is becoming more realistic and knows that there is a limit to how far he can take this and jared said yeah, we're working on this. we're working on it. >> even after his attorney general told him his claims of election fraud were false, president trump continued to promote these claims. >> i felt that things continued to deteriorate between the 23rd and the weekend of the 29th. on november 29th he appeared on maria bartiromo's show, sunday futures i believe it was and he said that the department was missing in action. >> we had glitches where they moved thousands of votes from my account to biden's account and these are glitches. they aren't glitches, they're theft, they're fraud. absolute fraud. this election was over and then they did dumps. they call them dumps. big massive dumps in michigan and pennsylvania and all over. how the f.b.i. and the department of justice, i don't know, maybe they are involved. but how people are allowed to get away with this stuff a unbelievable. >> now spurred by what he saw, barr told the associated press on december 1st that there was no evidence of election fraud and immediately after attorney general barr's statement went public mr. trump berated and nearly fired barr but barr persisted in telling the president there was no evidence to support the fraud claims. >> this got under my skin but i also felt it was time for me to say something. so i set up a lunch with the a.p. reporter mike balsamo and told him at lunch, made the statement that today we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election. i had a later meeting scheduled at the white house at 3:00 with meadows. this was previously scheduled so i knew this was going to come up and i went over there and told my secretary that i thought i would probably be fired and told not -- and not to go back to my office and i said you might have to pack up for me. and so when i got over there i met with the chief of staff. he said the president was angry. he didn't really go get into the issue of the fraud. and then i went up to except loney's office and we were talking with each other and word came down he wanted us both to go to the oval and the president was as mad as i had ever seen him and trying to control himself. the president said this is killing me. you didn't have to say this. you must have said this because you hate trump, you hate trump. then he raised the big vote dump as he called it in detroit. and that he said people saw boxes coming into the counting station at all hours of the morning and so forth and i explained to him that at that point i knew the exact number of precincts in detroit. 630 something. i said mr. president there are 630 precincts in detroit. unlike elsewhere in the state, they sent ralize the counting process so they aren't counted in each precinct. they're moved to counting stations and so the normal process would involve boxes coming in at all different hours. did anyone point out to you that all the people complaining about it you did better in detroit than you did last time? there is no indication of fraud in detroit. and i told him that the stuff that his people were shoveling out to the public was bullshit. that the claims of fraud were bullshit and he was indignant about that. and i reiterated that they had wasted a whole month on these claims on the dominion voting machines and they were idiotic claims and i specifically raised the dominion voting machines, which i found to be about the most disturbing allegations. disturbing in the sense i saw zero basis for the allegations but made in such a sensational way they obviously were influencing a lot of people, members of the public, that there was this systemic corruption in the system and that their votes didn't count and that these machines controlled by somebody else were actually determining it, which was complete nonsense. and it was being laid out there and i told him that it was crazy stuff and they were wasting their time on that. and it was doing a great disservice to the country. >> okay. so the very next day the president released a video rehashing some of the very same claims that his chief law enforcement officer had told him were, quote, nonsense. >> here is an example. this is michigan. at 6:31 in the morning, a vote dump of 149,772 votes came in unexpectedly. we were winning by a lot. that batch was received in horror. we have a company that is very suspect. its name is dominion. with the turn of a dial or the change of a chip you can press a button for trump and the vote goes to biden. what kind of a system is this? >> barr again told the president that there was nothing to these claims on december 14th. >> when i walked in, sat down, he went off on a monologue saying that there was now definitive evidence involving fraud through the dominion machines and a report had been prepared by a very reputable cybersecurity firm, allied security operations group and held up the report. and he then he asked that a copy of it be made for me. and while a copy was being made, he said this is absolute proof that the dominion machines were rigged. the report means that i'm going to have a second term. and then he gave me a copy of the report and as he talked more and more about it, i sat there flipping through the report and looking through it. and to be frank, it looked very amateur i shall to me. didn't have the credentials of the people involved but i didn't see any real qualifications. and the statements were made very conclusive like, these machines were designed to engage in fraud or something to that effect. i didn't see any supporting information for it. and i was somewhat demoralized because i thought if he really believes this stuff, he has lost contact with -- he has become detached from reality if he really believes this stuff. on the other hand when i went into this and would, you know, tell him how crazy some of these allegations were, there was never an indication of interest in what the actual facts were in my opinion then and my opinion now is that the election was not stolen by fraud. and i haven't seen anything since the election that changes my mind on that including the 2,000 mules movie. >> maybe you can assess that 2000 mules that people are talking about that. >> just in a nutshell, you know, i just the gbi was unimpressed with it and i was similarly unimpressed with it. i was holding my fire on that to see what the photographic evidence was. if they have a lot of photographs of the same person dumping a lot of ballots in different boxes that's hard to explain. so i wanted to see what the photographic evidence was. but the cell phone data is singularly unimpressive. basically if you take two million cell phones and figure out where they are physically in a big city like atlanta or wherever, just by definition you will find many hundreds of them have passed by and spent time in the vicinity of these boxes and the premise that, you know, if you go by five boxes or whatever it was, that's a mule is just indefensible. by definition you will have hundreds of this. i saw one contractor said we figured out our truck alone would account for six cell phone signals. this was, you know, some kind of contractor. our route would take us by these things on a regular basis. but then when the movie came out, you know, i think the photographic evidence in it was completely -- there was a little bit of it but it was lacking. it didn't establish widespread illegal harvesting. the other thing that people don't understand is that it's not clear that even if you can show harvesting, that that changes the results of the election. the courts are not going to throw out votes and then figure out what votes were harvested. the burden on the challenging party to show that illegal votes were cast. votes were the result of undue influence or bribes or there was really, you know, the person was -- absent that evidence, i just didn't see courts throwing out votes anyway. i felt that before the election it was possible to talk sense to the president and while you sometimes had to engage in a big wrestling match with him, it was possible to keep him on track. but i felt that after the election, he didn't seem to be listening and i didn't think it was -- i was inclined not to stay around if he wasn't listening to advice from me or his other cabinet secretaries. >> so on december 14th, barr quit. now the attorney general wasn't the only person who told the president that his claims were false. other officials and close advisors told him the same thing. >> other than -- [inaudible] -- let me just say there were instances where the president would say people are telling me this or i heard this or i saw on television, you know, this impropriety out of pennsylvania or something. we were in a position to say our people looked at that and know you are getting bad information. that's not correct. demonstrated to be incorrect from our point of view. it has been debunked. >> a month and a half or so after election day and at that meeting, you know, various allegations of fraud were discussed and, you know, eric and pat didn't, you know, told the group, the president included, none of those allegations had been substantiated to the point where they could be the basis for any litigation challenge to the election. >> president trump's own vice president and his top advisors also knew there wasn't evidence to support the claims the president was making. >> everyone else other than mr. meadows who asked you about the status outside of your legal loop, mr. morgan and the others you mentioned asking you the status of what you were finding in your assessment of it. >> yes, sir. >> who is that? >> peter navarro. >> when did you talk to mr. navarro? >> mid november. >> around the same time as mr. meadows? >> yes, sir. >> and tell me about that conversation. >> i recall him asking me questions about dominion and maybe some other categories of allegations, voter fraud. i remember telling him that i didn't believe the dominion allegations because i thought the hand recount in georgia would resolve any issues with the technology problem and with dominion or dominion flipping votes. and i mentioned at that time that chris crabs has recently released a report saying the election was secure and i believe mr. navarro said i was working with chris krebs against the president and i never took another phone call from mr. navarro. >> anyone else besides them that you had discussions with inquiring about what you were finding in your review of the allegations that were pouring in? >> i believe i had a 152nd conversation with the president about it, as well. >> and was not? >> during one of the visits to lighthouse. i don't know which one. i believe it was the first one, in november. i had met him briefly at the campaign, and he remembered me and saw me, and he asked what i was doing on the campaign, and i told him that we were looking into some of the issues related to voter fraud, and he asked me -- i don't remember his exact words, but he asked me if we are finding anything, and i said that i didn't believe we were -- or, that i was not personally finding anything sufficient to alter the results of the election. and he thanked me. that was her interaction. >> at a later hearing, you will hear live testimonies from the former acting deputy attorney general of the department of justice, rich donahue. but now i would like to play a portion of his testimony. >> i tried to, again, put this in perspective and put it in very clear terms to the president. i said something to the effect of, "sir, we've done dozens of investigations, hundreds of interviews. the main allegations are not supported by the evidence. we went to georgia, pennsylvania, michigan, nevada. we are doing our job. much of the info you are getting is false." then i went into, "for instance, this report from michigan about a 58% error rate, the reality is it's only 0.0063%, less than less than 1 in 15,000." so the president accepted that. he said, "fine, but what about the others?" this gets back to the point that there were so many of these allegations, when you gave him a very direct answer on one of them, he wouldn't fight us on it but he would move to another allegation. so then i talked a little bit about pennsylvania truck driver, another allegation that had come up, and this claim was by a truck driver who believed, perhaps honestly, that he had transported an entire tractor-trailer truck full of ballots from new york to pennsylvania. and this was, again come out there in the public and discussed, and i said, we looked at that allegation, we looked at both ends, the people who load the truck and people who unload the truck. that allegation was not supported by the evidence. again he said, "okay," and then he said, "nope, i didn't mention that one. what about the others?" and i said, "okay, with regard to georgia, we looked at the tape, we interviewed the witnesses. there is no suitcase." the president kept fixating on the suitcase that supposedly had fraudulent ballots, that it was rolled out from under the table. and i said, "no, there is no suitcase. you can watch the video over and over, there's no suitcase. there is a thing where they carry the ballots and that's just how they move the ballots around the facility. there's nothing suspicious about that at all." i told him that there was no multiple scanning of the

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