Youre watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. BookTv Television for serious readers. From my father i inherited my confidence my resilience, my passion, and my audacity, looking back although it was never explained to me in this way, he taught me the spirit of which is greek idea of honor and doing the right thing, even when ones own interests or even ones own life is in peril. Growing up while i never fought anything but australian there were two stories about the Second World War and greece that i always kept close to my heart. The first was in 1940 when Benito Mussolini italys Prime Minister asked the greek Prime Minister for free passage through greece and on the spot at 3 00 in the morning without hesitation, without consultation he said oy he said no. It was spirited defiance and quite incredible when considering just how vastly outnumbered the greeks were by the italians. It prompted sir winston churchhill, the greatest figure of the 20th century in my mind to say, it is not greeks that fight like heroes, but that heroes fight like greeks. And then again in 194on the island military commander order ad bishop and mayor to prepare him a list of the Jewish Community on the island. His plan was to deport the entire Jewish Community of zakenfoss to concentration camps in poland. Word had gone out any greek caught hide as jew would be executed on the spot. Instead of preparing this list, the bishop and the mayor went to the Jewish Community on the island, and they sent them into hiding, in the mountains or with christian trends in the countryside. They returned to German Military commander, presented him with a sheet of paper, the list. That the German Military commander was after. There were just two names on that piece of paper the bishop and the mayor. They told the German Military commander that it was the entire Jewish Community. It was the spirit of filatmo behind both of those acts and precise spirit that encouraged me to answer what consider the greatest moral calling of our time, the defense of the United States of america. You can watch this and other programs online, at booktv. Org. Look at current bestselling nonfiction books according to the New York Times. The end of life care, in being mortal. Number four is form arkansas Mike Huckabee take on culture in gods, guns, grits and gravy. In killing patton bill oreilly recounts the life and death of george patton. A rarely charged murder in ghettocide. Deep down dark, the account of 33 chilean miners trapped underground for 69 days again. Stephen brills diagnosis of the Health Care System americas bitter pill. Former president george w. Bush profile of his father g h. W. Bush, in 41. New york times nonfiction bestsellers list includes with the life as a gitmo detainee, in guantanamo diary. In i am malala Nobel Peace Prize recipient growing up in pakistan. History of the under Ground Railroad in gateway to freedom. That is look at this weeks list of nonfiction bestsellers according to the New York Times. [inaudible conversations]. On your screen now is a live picture from inside Trinity United Methodist church, home of the annual savannah book festival in georgia. We will be back in just a few minutes, with more live coverage. [inaudible conversations]. [inaudible conversations]. Here is look at some upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country. March 14th 15th, booktv will be at university of arizona with live coverage of the 7th annual tucson festival of books. Following week the begin i cant festival of the book will be held in charlottesville, virginia. From march 25th through the 29th the city of new orleans will host the Tennessee Williams Literary Festival. Los Angeles Times of festival of books takes place on the 18th and 19th april. It will also air live on booktv. Let us know about book fairs and festivals in your area. Well be happy to add them to our list. Email us at booktv at cspan. Org. A familiar face to cspan and booktv viewers ted olson, former solicitor general coauthor of this book redeeming the dream, the case for Marriage Equality. Along with david boies. Did you surprise a lot of people on your position on gay marriage . Apparently i did. I didnt surprise me and i didnt surprise people who knew me. I think i always felt, i grew up in california, i feel it is wrong and i always felt it is wrong to discriminate against people who are gay or lesbian. When i was first asked to take this case i thought it was something i could do and i wanted to do. So, i was a little surprised that people were surprised but because im a conservative a lot of people were. And i felt that it was then my mission to try to convince as many of them i could that this was the right place to be. What is the conservative case for gay marriage . The conservative case for gay marriage to me is easy. These are two loving people who want to come together in an enduring relationship and form a part of a community and have a family, and be a part of our society, and to live together. What could be more conservative than that . We should want, we as conservatives should want people who love one another to want to get married. Marriage is a conservative value, and when gay people want to get married it should be the same thing. The same aspirations and same fears and hopes the rest of us do. We should support that. For those who may not know, whats the long relationship of you and your coauthor . How did you first meet. David boies and i of course knew one another before the bush versus gore case. Most people know us as opposite sides. He represented Vice President gore, i represented governor bush, in the bush versus gore case that decided the 2000 election. After the election, we found we had Great Respect for one another. Our wives, are both lawyers. We started to get together and enjoy evenings together over dinner and more we spent with one another, we, more we realized we should Work Together on something. When this case came along i called up david and i thought it was it was important to the represent to the American People it was not a conservative or liberal issue. It was an American Issue and that if two lawyers wellknown on opposite sides of the political spectrum could come together, people could see it. It was an American Issue not a gay or heterosexual issue or conservative or liberal issue but issue about American Values and american rights and freedom. We tried to convey that point of view. This book is written by two lawyers. Can laymen understand it . Well we hope. We thought it was exceedingly important to express the case that we took from the very beginning all the way to the Supreme Court in terms of that lawyers would learn as a lesson but also people would value as a journey of individuals and freedom and people. And we tried very hard to make sure that we could communicate with people who are not lawyers. The worst thing in the world is for a lawyer to talk like a lawyer. People dont like that they dont understand it they dont want to hear it. It is important for lawyers to understand that you have to speak english speak in language that people understand. We tried to convey our emotion, our feelings, and our strategy, in terms that all americans could understand. Especially young people who might aspire to be lawyers. Or people that were studying Political Science. We tried to reach out to that wide audience. What is your answer of how quickly it seems gay marriage is being accepted and spread across the country . Im glad you asked that question. We started this case, there were three states in which individuals could marry the person they loved if it happened to be a person of the same sex. Today, five years later, 33 states recognize Marriage Equality. Can you imagine . And the American Public was against Marriage Equality by a factor of 17 points or Something Like that. Now it is maybe 10 or 12 on the other side. Young americans, people under 30, it is 75 to 80 believe in Marriage Equality and respect the rights of gay and lesbians to get married. That all took place in the course of five or six years. It is a remarkable transformation of American Public opinion. All in favor of people who love one another. Its a very, very encouraging thing. What about the Republican Party . The Republican Party is getting there. When we filed our briefs in the Supreme Court we had a brief filed by some 30 prominent members of the Republican Party who supported our case, including ken mehlman former chairman of the Republican National committee, rob portman an important senator who is a republican and more and more republicans are understanding that marriage between people who love one another is a value that republicans have to support or theyre not going to ever win elections. I mean this is important not just to gay and lesbian people but people across the political spectrum who believe in american rights. Republicans will not be accepted as a Majority Party if they wish to achieve a majority status in this country unless they recognize that rights of human beings to have that kind of freedom and liberty. This, any gay marriage issues coming back before the Supreme Court and if so, are you involved in them . Im not involved in it but we had several cases including the virginia case, Supreme Court decided not to take this year, but there is another case involving kentucky, tennessee, and a couple of other states, that the Supreme Court is considering right now. I believe the Supreme Court will take that case. Im hoping that the Supreme Court will hear that case before the end of next june, when they decide their cases for this term. Im not involved in it now but i am rooting for those lawyers who are handling this case. If they want any help from me they will have it. At the time olson, david boies, redeeming the dream, the case for Marriage Equality. This is booktv on cspan2. Thank you for talking to me. [inaudible conversations]. Booktv is live today from Savannah Georgia at their annual book festival. Our live coverage will continue shortly. [inaudible conversations]. [inaudible conversations]. [inaudible conversations]. Here is look at books being published this week. New york times reporter mary pelon traces origins of the board game monopoly. In the age of acquiesce ends, Steve Frazier talks about the rise of american capitalism and critadvertises what he sees as politics of fear. An assistant professor the environmental study in new york city, proposes public shaming of corporate and government leaders can be used as form of nonviolent protest, in the book, is shame necessary. To explain the world, nobel prizewinning physicist Steven Weinberg looks at development of modern science and human development. Michael meyer talks about living in rural chinas farming community, in in manchuria. Watch for the authors in the future on booktv. Org. Had an experience about five years ago that i think really captures the way were taught to think about fossil fuels and actually what is wrong, in my view not just the way that the left thinks of fossil fuels but often the right thinks of fossil fuels. So im from southern california. I grew up in this area. But, you know the climate out there is just, just amazing. So i moved there about 10 years ago for work and i havent been able to leave. About five years ago i was in irvine california, orange county, at a farmerrers market for lunch. As sometimes happens there was a greenpeace booth outside of the farmers market. This girl comes up to me, im, what am i now, 34, i must have been 28, 29 at the time looked fairly young. Said youre an environmentalist right . Dont you want to help us get off our addiction to fossil fuels and transition to clean renewable energy. Im thinking, she really does not know what is going to happen in terms of what my view is. And i said, well no, actually, i really like fossil fuels. I think what fossil fuel industry does is great overall. And i think that the world would be better if we used more fossil fuels. So think to yourself, what is she thinking . What is she going to say. That is what i was wondering. The reason why i raised it that way, that is my view we should use more fossil fuels is i wanted to see, i wanted her to bring up one of the common objections. So, for example catastrophic climate change. Catastrophic pollution, catastrophic resource depletion. I show her there is different way of thinking about these things where the fact something is challenge doesnt mean it is catastrophe. And that if you look at the big picture, the full context, these things insofar there are challenges are far, far outweighed by the benefits human beings get. But unfortunately she didnt ask about any of those things. And she didnt even get mad at me. She did something that at the time took me aback. And that was she looked at me almost in awe, and i thought what is going to happen. Cant really be awe, right . I realized later as if an alien creature, talking to alien creature, when i said i think we should use more fossil fuels. She said wow, you must make a lot of money. Watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. Lynn sherr is next on become tv booktv live on savannah book festival. She tells the story of sally ride the First American woman in space. Good morning. Happy valentines day. Book lovers, my name a anne gardner and i am delighted to welcome to you the 8th annual savannah book festival. And to thank the festivals 2015 presenting sponsors Georgia Power, and bob and jean faircloth. We are blessed once again to host such celebrated authors at Trinity United Methodist church a beautiful historic venue, made possible by the generosity of ann and jimmying bi, the International Paper foundation the Savannah Morning News, and zoo van gnaw magazine. We would also like to thank cspan for coming to the festival and filming live here today, which is why you are in the limelight. Were sorry about your lights but you may be on tely, so who noise. We would also like to extend a special thanks to our literati members and individual donors who make this Saturdays Free festival a possibility. We will be providing you with yellow bucks for books buckets at the door as you exit, if you would like to give us extra support. It is important if we can possibly maintain this place and saturday for the festival free. Please take a moment to make sure you turn off your telephone phones. We also ask that you do not take flash photography. If youre going to ann and Christopher Rice tomorrow please remember it is 3 00. At one stage it was printed incorrectly in the information on the website. Immediately following this presentation, lynn sherr will be signing festivalpurchased copies of her book in Telfair Square. You possibly anticipated meeting vicki con stan teen croke this morning. Unfortunately, not unfortunately, probably happy living there. She lives in boston. They had ice back on the roof. Two stories, the one is roof came down and other is water is pouring inside. Were very lucky today, that lynn sherr will do two talks. She will do one she scheduled to do this afternoon and will do this one as well. I also want to thank jean and sherry sheraif for sponsoring lynn. Lynn scher, sorry spent more than 30 years with abc news and is best known for her reporting at abc new magazine, 20 20. As a journalist she covered the Nasa Space Program for 1981 to 1986. Including the landmark barrierbreaking moment when her friend sally ride became the First American woman in space in 1983. Lynn sherrs new book covers rides public an intensely private personal life in unprecedented detail, thanks to insights provided by ride family colleagues former husband and friends and unknown most by most, a long time lesbian partner. Scher has won, scher has won an emmy two american women in radio and television commendations, a gracie award, and a George Foster peabody award. This outspoken feminist twice received planned parenthoods Margaret Sanger award for journalists. Written numerous other books including, outside the box, a memoir about her life on and off television including her husbands death from cancer as well as her own fight with colon cancer. A statuesque blonde in her own right, scher has written about another group of lofty toe heads, tall blondes a book about drafts. She is a founding patron of Giraffe Conservation foundation. Welcome lynn sherr. [applause] thank you ann, very much. Thanks to all of you. I want to say welcome to this beautiful place and also thank you for having me here. I love being among book lovers and for those who of you who came to hear vicki talk about her wonderful book about elephants, im sorry about that but if it helps i did write a book about giraffes. Truly magnificent creatures. I will take a little detour here. I will tell you that i considered giraffes not only the most gorgeous creatures on the planet and also the most politically correct. They never attack unless theyre attacked. Very peaceable. Theyre vegetarians and no giraffe discriminates against another giraffe on basis of its skin patterns. They also have the longest eyelashes in captivity. Theyre great creatures, and more than happy to talk about them tall blondes and that book another time. For now i wish you a happy valentines day and i suggest that you, sometimes today hug someone or something you love. As that only happens to be a book thats okay, too. We love books. I also want to point out tomorrow february 15th is the birthday of one of my heroes, susan b. Anthony, who of course led the Great Campaign in the 19th century to get us women not only the right to vote but every other single right as well. [applause] yes, thank you very much. So happy birthday to susan b. Anthony in advance. Susan b. Anthony shares that birthday with the as stronger in astronomer galileo who came along on february 15th centuries earlier. His crime was revealing the earth is not the center of the universe. Susans was revealing men are not. [laughter] [applause] both of these things are the sort of revolutionary thoughts that have guided most of my professional life, whether as a reporter in print or on television or in writing books. And yes, i have witnessed a lot of revolutions in my career, consider for example, the new yorker cartoon, about 20 years ago, fellow walks into a bookstore walks up to the bespectacled clerk she says to him, nodding wisely, yes, she says books by men are in the basement. Nothing personal gentlemen. The truth of course is that womens books and everything women do and womens place is everywhere right now but whether it is books or on television, or in real life, i actually learned about my place on the planet from a series of experiences that i had while i was working in Television News. One of them was, when i was back at abc news, where i enjoyed a long and wonderful career. One day my piece was done early for world news, what was then 7 00 probably 6 30 news. I got to leave early. I went with my husband over to visit my motherinlaw. I loved her and watched me on television a lot. Never seen me in the same room while the tv was on. So at one point, larry said mother lynn, has a piece on the news and watched. He stood in the front of room and turned on tv. Diana was sitting in her chair watching and i was next to the tv as well. Here is what happened. Tv came on. My piece came on and diana looked at the tv, then she looked at me. Then she looked at the tv and looked at me, back and forth the entire minute and 10 seconds. I dont think she absorbed a word what i was saying. The poor woman who was so smart had escaped from revolutionary czar it russia, under a load of hey, come to new york, started a business in the Garment Center, ran her whole life brilliantly, raise ad fabulous son. This woman could not understand how i could be on television and in her room at the same time. [laughter] which to me was the genuine article. That is results that when you step outside of the box. I know that is a position or mindset i adopted regularly as a kind of a reality check on that very strong medium medium. On the flip side of the diana story, occurred during the first Space Shuttle liftoff. Im down at the cape for abc news. Im out in the socalled vip area out in front, and Frank Reynolds our anchor who you probably remember, wonderful reporter and anchorman is up in the booth. At one point frank turned to me, and now we go to lynn sherr to find out what is happening in the vip area. It is pitch black. It is predawn. All these folks around us waiting for the first shuttle liftoff you may remember didnt happen until two weeks later. Nonetheless, there we are. While i was doing the whole thing there was a little black and white tv monitor about this big sitting on the ground in front of me so that i could know when frank through it to me. I had earpiece on but i could see what was going on. Frank throws it to me and my producer stands there with her arms out like a bird sort of holding, you know, keeping the crowds away. Im talking into the camera and im kind of looking at the monitor and im, no doubt saying something terribly important and i noticed, the crowd was very hushed which was good for my ego. Then i realized that even though i was standing there, all five feet eight 1 2 inches of me, living, breathing color, every eye in the crowd was looking at black and white seveninch tv monitor. Tv was the reality. Life a mere bystander. This is the sort of thing that went on for much of my television life. As a local Television News reporter in new york i got a call early one morning that there had been, there was a story i had to cover, there had been one of these miracle micro surgery operations. One of the very first ones back in the early 70s, when a mans hand was reattached to his arm and i was supposed to go out to brooklyn to cover the story. There was a press conference about it. I threw on clothes. Randown stairs. Crew picked me up. We drive out to brooklyn. Walk across the parking lot, im carrying a try p. O. D. Someone taking Something Else. Little old man says hey, youre on television. Yes, im on television. Hey, youre lynn sherr, arent you . , i said, yes, thank you very much. Thank you for recognizing me. He looked at me and said, you look better on television. So i tran to the ladies room and put on makeup and we went from there. After i left that job, and had been off the air several weeks. I was walking on lexington avenue near blame ming bloomingdales in new york someone said, didnt you used to be lynn sherr . How does one respond . It is confusing. One morning back at abc, i was down at the cape getting ready to anchor one of the Early Morning launches. Remember most of the launches were really early in the morning. Which meant if you were anchoring them you had to be this position real real early in the morning or late at night. My husband had come down to join me. It seafaring in the morning. He 4 00 in the morning. I am in the other seat going over last minute notes. He turns to me with his eyes buyerly open and turns to me and says, thank you for sharing the glamorous part of your life. The truth of course it has been very glamorous. Reporting Television News, was i cant say so much for now, but it was a wonderful and exciting and important way live my life. I think we did a very critically important things. I think we saved some lives around i had an awful lot of fun doing it. And i will say that while i loved covering politics, and i loved all the pieces i did about social change and all sorts of things, one of the most exuberant stories i got to cover was covering the Space Program. So writing this new book, sally ride americas first woman in space, has been a combination of a labor of love. Bittersweet basally was my good friend and also a way of reliving and retelling some of the most important moments in our countrys history. In terms of the book, let me start with a cartoon. And the scene is teenage girls bedroom, a surprisingly neat teenage girls bedroom i might add. And it is bursting with science textbooks and posters of the Space Shuttle and astronomy books and globes and all sorts of wonderful things about this this young woman. And the teenager sitting in her tshirt, at her desk, at her computer staring at the monitor. On the monitor is the very sad news that sally ride americas first woman in space has just died. She is looking at the headline sally ride, 19512012. There is picture, very familiar picture of sally. The teenage girl is looking on in utter shock. Not so much what she sees on the screen but the backstory. Behind her is standing her mom and in her mom jeans and the mom is saying something to the girl but the caption is the teenage girl. What the teenage girl is saying to her mom is, wait, wait are you saying it there was a time when there werent any women astronauts . Yes. Exactly. Sally ride, did not grow up with astronaut dreams. Back then the job was simply not available. When she was born in may of 1951, the United States Space Program was a mens club, a white mens club. Restricted to Fighter Pilots and military men. The few women who did apply and keep in mind we have a lot of very qualified women pilots in those days in the early 50s middle 50s out of world war ii and work they had done. But all of these talented women were summarily rejected. Women were considered too weak too unscientific, too well, womanly to fly in the Space Program. One newspaper editorialized that a female in the cockpit would be, and i quote, a nagging back seat rocket driver. Thank you very much. Good gasp. Columnist ridiculed the prospect of winning women as astronauts calling themmals slownets. Sally ride loved nasa as a kid but interest in nasa was simply aspect tate tore. Like most kids in that era certainly some of you watched early space liftoffs when the teacher wheeled in a big black and white tv set with rabbit ears in the classroom and watched john glenn and everybody else take off. She learned tennis. Was so accomplished on junior circuit and womens circuit considered turning pro. She dropped out of college a few months to give it a try. When she realized she would not be one of the elite of the elite, that is all sally ride would have ever settled for she decided that was not the place she needed to be. Years later when she would be asked what it was that had stopped her from a tennis career sally always said which is fully, my forehand. It never stopped her forward progress. When tennis didnt work out pivoted to science. Went up to Stanford University for her undergraduate and her masters and doctorate in astrophysics. Point out, say she was not underachiever. She was double english and astrophysics major when she was an undergraduate. Sally was in the midst of writings her Postgraduate School applications one morning in 1977 january 1977, when she weeks up in the morning. Goes to the stanford Student Union to get a coffee and sweet role to wake up before class. Picks up the stanford daily and never gets beyond the front page. The headline was just above the fold, and it read, nasa to recruit women. Sallys future just dropped in her lap. Nasa was finally reaching out. This is january of 1977 for women and minorities, for the upcoming new Space Shuttle program. Unlike the the tools and the directions of the original Space Program which was to get us to the moon and which, and which meant riding in those little tiny spacecraft mercury, gemini and apollo, john glenn used to joke you didnt so much climb into the mercury capsule as you put it on. So unlike these little tiny spacecraft, the shuttle was now the size of an airplane. They could have larger crews. It was a whole different ballgame. Because we were now not going to just one other place, the moon, but the Space Shuttle would lift off, circle the earth, many many times and then return to earth, there was a chance. There was a chance to do science in space. There was a chance to do experiments. We would launch the hubble space telescope. We would build a spacetation nasa figured out in order to get this done, it was time, they were bowing to some special pressure i should add in legal cases but well leave that aside for now. But it was time to add scientists. People who would conduct experiments in space and do all of these things. They called the new category of astronaut, mission specialist. Thanks to all of these pressures on them and to their own awakening they wanted different genders and different races. So they put out the call for women and minorities and actively recruited them starting in 1976. Sally got the news via the article in the stanford union, the stanford daily in january of 1977. She is sitting there drinking her coffee, reading the article, looks at Job Description of a new kind of astronaut called a mission specialist, says to herself, i could do that. Puts down the paper goes off in search of stationary, a pen and envelope and a stamp. It was that long ago. And immediately sends off to nasa to request an application. Sally was one of more than 25,000 people who wrote in for that application. Eight thousand people filled them in, including more than 1500 women. In the end, after a very long process of interviews and screening and some very anxious moments, sally was one of 35 individuals chosen as the first class of shuttle astronauts. Of them six were women three africanamericans, men and one hawaiian men man. Nasa was suddenly looking like the poster child for multiculturalism and sally was over the moon in her own way. When she got the call telling her the job was hers, sally, who by her own definition was very shy, very private very much an introvert genetically when she got the call she says she went jumping up and down in her bedroom, screaming and yelling. Picks up the phone and calls her best friend from high school. Hi there this is your friendly local astronaut calling. That is the way she identified herself to that friend for the rest of her life. Her parents shared the glory in their own idiosyncratic way. Sally used to joke that her father who taught Political Science at a Community College in Santa Monica Sallys father, she said, never understood science, didnt have a scientific bone in his body. When sally was growing up, studying astrophysics her father could not explain to anyone what she did. Now that im an astronaut she said, his problems are solved. Sallys mother, irrepressible joyce ride, when she got the news, told a reporter with sally going into space and her sister studying to be a minister, one of them would get to heavyp ven. Before heaven. Before she got there sally learned becoming an astronaut in 1978, meant a lot, or a little to a press corps with very little imagination. Keep in mind, january 1978. One woman had flown in space a russian woman she flew in 1963. But because the soviet union was our cold war enemy, there was very little news, no transparency. We knew almost nothing about this woman or what happened in her spaceflight. The United States Space Program for all of its wonderful glory i take nothing away from it, by january of 1978 nasa had flown exactly three females in space, two spiders and one monkey. So sally an academic, a graduate student, she didnt know from press conferences gets to her First Press Conference and she is stunned by the stupidity of questions like arent you afraid of being in orbit with all those men . And do you expect to run into any ufos . Sally calmly answered no to the latter and assured former her academic career as astrophysicist made her very comfortable around males. I first met sally in 1981 when abc asked me to then join our Terrific Team to cover the upcoming Space Shuttle program. As i mentioned the anchor was Frank Reynolds. Our science correspondent was a terrific guy jewels bergman who practically invented field. They want ad third person to the team for variety of reasons. Im describing myself as the color guy in the baseball booth. I was there to do feature stories. Because of number of things i wound up becoming lead reporter and anchoring all Space Shuttle missions and landings through the challenger explosion. It was really fun. My first assignment when i ght to the Johnson Space center in houston, was to, this is april of 1981. The first shuttle was about to launch. Excuse me i went to . January of 1981 to prepare for the first launch in april. My story was do a story on first breed of astronauts women minorities, people who were not jetFighter Pilots of old. We asked nasa a group of individuals who were representative, sally was one of the new bees that nasa offered up. I loved her at first because she spoke english not tech know talk and her direct manner an determination. I asked her why do you want to go intointo space . I expect ad cocky response that you got from the dominant astronaut culture. Instead she says to me, i dont know. She said. I have discovered that half the people would love to go into space and there is no need to explain it to them. The other half cant understand and i couldnt explain it to them. If someone doesnt want to know why, i cant explain it. I thought that was just wonderful. In fraternity of up tight crewcuts she was a breath of fresh feminism readily acknowledging if it werent for the Womens Movement she would not have her job. She also acknowledged that nasa with its 20year heritage of white male Fighter Pilots had finally done the right thing. We became friends immediately. As the program developed and i wound up anchoring abcs coverage, sally and i continued to spend time together. We bonded over cold shrimp and cold beer. And funny stories at a variety of local dives one of which i recall offered mud wrestling which we managed to avoid. We both shared a healthy disregard for the overblown egos and conservative intransigence of both of our professions. Beneath her unemotional demeanor a lot of people found icy, i found a caring friend with a very impish wit. When she married fellow astronaut steve hawley, their home became my beer and pizza hangout during other folks shuttle missions. Sally got her chance five years later. She was the first of six women chosen to fly. She immediately became our newest american hero, a smart and funny and daring optimist who trained endlessly and answered questions tirelessly. The public attention was both flattering and frustrating to her. Still reflecting that, still reflecting the difficulties that some had with accepting the entrance of women into this previously maleonly club. Including the one i would nominate as the dumbest question ever asked at a press conference anywhere, and i have been to a lot of press conferences. We are now ask the the at the, in may of 1983. Sally flew in june of 1983. The crew was up there for their preflight press conference. So it is sally and four men in her crew sitting with her. Questions went along pretty well. Reporter from Time Magazine asks the question dr. Ride, he said, i know that you have been through an entire year of training. I know it has been a very intense year. I know things sometimes go wrong in the simulator. When something does go wrong, when there is a glitch, like the shuttle crashes in simulation, when something really bad happens, how do you handle it, he said . Do you weep . Right. This is 1983. So, were in a room of about half the size of this and most of the press corps including all of the women i might add, kind of rolled their eyes went, oh my goodness, silently. Sally, this moment exists on tape and you can watch this you can dial it up on youtube or something. Sally, gets the question. You see this look on her face like who is this person . She rolls her eyes, and then she starts to laugh and she smiles. She turns to rick hawk the pilot of her mission, sitting to her right, why doesnt anyone ever ask rick these questions . This is why sally ride was the perfect chose for First American woman in space. I if chosen would have clawed the guys eyes out. Sally laughed it off, defused bomb and went on from there. It was totally, totally brilliant. This is what she faced. And, it wasnt just the press. Oh, i should there was another reporter who actually said to her, did you ever wish you were a boy . Sally gritted her teeth said, no, i never thought about it. Within nasa there were a number of other hurdles to leap. Sally, as a First American woman to fly, was asked to make a number of decisions. Everything that flies on the Space Shuttle or on any other american spacecraft with human beings on it, has to be checked for offgassing, for flammability, for all sorts of reasons. So everything in her in the her personal kit, her toiletries kit, if you will had to be checked by nasa. Since no woman had ever flown there were number of questions she sad. Male engineers didnt know what the answer was. Sally very wisely called five other women when she had to make the decision because she understood that every decision she made would devolve every other woman that flew so she wanted them in on it so that was great. Six women managed to get many of the items they take in personal kits aloft changed. Exchanging old spice after the shave lotion and british sterling deodorant for female friendly lotion and positions. Hair restraints. We call them rubber bands. It wasnt just nasa and wasnt just the press. When the original launch date for sallys flight was shifted slightly to accommodate the schedule Johnny Carson joked on the tonight show the shuttle would be delayed so sally ride could find a purse to match her shoes. That was actually the funniest of all the jokes he told over the course of an entire year. I watched them all on tape and i must tell you my faith in the American People has been totally renewed. Because Johnny Carsons jokes really went downhill, totally lame. Mostly frat house gags. And they started out with a little at this timer of titer of audience. Next time he told a joke that was awful, they kind of, next time they were silent, by the end they actually booed him. On the air. In just over a year, nasas selection and sallys conduct transformed female astronauts from a punch line to a matter of national pride. The entire nation was riding with her. When i had my oneonone interview with sally right before she flew, i said look, do you feel under any pressure as the First American woman to go up . She said yes i do feel pressure, she said, not to mess up. So all sally said but i knew just what she meant. She didnt want to mess up for the crew. She didnt want to mess up for the mission for nasa for the United States, for future of human spaceflight. All of these things were terribly important to her. But mostly i think she didnt want to mess up for other women. She understood that if she messed up it would be interpreted that no woman could ever fly as an astronaut but that if she did well, that door would be wide open for everybody. Listen to what another astronaut from another generation pamela melroy, one of only go women to command a shuttle flight said about sallys flight. And i quote. Wasnt until after i became an astronaut that i discovered the most important gift sally gave me she was tremendously competent. The reputation of everyone who comes after you depends on how well you do. Sally opened those doors and smoothed the path for all women because she was so good at what she did. She was really, really good and she was really, really fun. On the day before she flew, all astronauts, before they fly are in quarantine so they dont get contaminated by us with some kind of a germ that would jeopardize the flight. So sally was not only in quarantine like all the astronauts, she was most fame must person on the planet for that particular 15 minutes. Face was on cover of all magazines. Everybody wanted a piece of her. She was off limits. Known could talk to her. Im sitting in in our abc work space which of course was a trailer. Very glamorous work spaces we had at cape. Day before her launch and preparing my script for that nights evening news, and i hear a phone ring and another part of the work space and someone picks it up, they say, lynn for you. I said, okay. I pick up the phone. Little voice says, hi there. What are you doing ten minutes from now . I said, i dont know, sally. What am i doing ten minutes from now . She said walk outside your trailer, turn left, go down the gravel path and stop. I did that. 25 yards away from me was sally ride in shorts cutoff shorts tshirt, flipflops, standing by a car, smiling and waving at me and grinning. She knew i wouldnt come any closer and i wouldnt try to jeopardize her flight. She knew i wasnt going to ask her questions because she wasnt going to answer any, but saying to me, im fine, im happy. Im really excited about this. You can tell the world that americas first woman in space is ready to go. It was a gift to me and it was also the way that i remember her most of all. That is who sally ride was. So june 18th, 1983 was the soft, bright morning at floridas Kennedy Space center. Occasional puffs of white dotting the pure blue sky. At 7 33 a. M. , the space shut sell challenger officially mission, sts7, Space Shuttle Transportation System, 7 the 7th flight, launched from the launchpad carrying crew of five. Half a million lined the beaches to share the moment. Many held up tiny daughters up to the sky by way of saying look what you can do when you grow up. As the anchor of abcs coverage that sunny saturday i unabashedly cheered her on. Later in the week, concluding one of my pieces by saying technologically nasa is pushing towards the 21st century but in human terms, it is finally entered the 20th. I should tell you i had trouble getting that particular line past my bosses but i did. I also brought my mother to the launch. My mother was then approaching 80. She was thrilled. She told me afterwards, i saw the horse and buggy. I saw the airplane. And now this. And that there was a woman made it even better. When she landed a week later in Edwards Air Force base in california president Ronald Reagan telephoned congratulations to the entire crew. When he got to sally, he said somebody says sometimes the best man for the job was a woman. You were there because you were the best person for the job. Millions of other women agreed. The mystery of the universe with its infinite who are r horizons and limited access and fiery risk of riding two giant roman candles to get there magnified sallys entry what was all male, cowboy culture into potent cando symbol. Many women, especially young women, translated her bold journey into their own tickets to success. If she can do that they said, we can do anything. Every single door is open. Later when sally came home she was peppered with all sorts of questions. This introvert answered them all. She particularly liked the questions she got from kids, because she said, kids had no filters and they would ask the questions that adults all wanted to ask but were embarrassed to ask. For example, how do you go to the bathroom in space . Sally had a simple explanation. Easy, she said. It is like sitting on a vacuum cleaner. She also talked, about the extraordinary view out the shuttles window. Not only coral reefs off the coast alaska, glaciers in the himalayas, deforestation in the amazon. Something else changed trajectory of her life once again. For the first time she saw the thin blue line encircling our planet. As if someone had taken a royal blue crayon, she said, and drawn it. Recognizing the from gillty of earths atmosphere. Sometimes she changed the metaphor. The ribbon of atmosphere was earths spacesuit. Or it was a slim as the fuzz on a tennis ball. But that is all there was she realized the only thing protecting our planet, our lives, us, our lakes, our trees our seas, everything thats here from the harshness of outer space. And seeing that thin, blue, line is what would later become her motivating impulse for the rest of her life, protecting planet earth. That was just the beginning of her contributions to nasa. After the hideous accident that destroyed challenger and killed seven people on board, nasa was only astronaut and only woman to serve on the commission that investigated it. She was also the source of a critical revelation about the rockets orings that helped pinpoint that problem which i talk about in print in the book for first time. She talked about the other was on the other investigative panel, the disintegration of the columbia as it reentered atmosphere in 2003. On that commission too she was a key player, getting real story about thats is as behavior out to the public. Once the bright new face of nasa sally had become its conscience. She convinced nasa to put a camera in space so, that students could control it remotely from their desks in their classrooms and take pictures of home planet to study impact environment. She called that earth cam. She teamed up with camera to fly cameras on twin satellites orbiting the moon, once again to let students snap pictures of various parts of moon so they could study them and print them out and hang them on their refrigerator doors and she called that one moon cam. She always wanted to give back to kids. She was by then long gone from the says space agency. Beyond the stereotypes. She also wanted to make it a business that would make money. Because that would attract the talents to make it work. She said over and over again to make Science School again. The company was end is sally ride science and share down the barriers in society between the nations of the world. Like all astronaut sally new looking down at planet birth from space there are no borders dividing countries or anything else. That is the sally ride i knew. Smart and witty and could come to new york and put her feet on the coffee table and watch the dumbest Television Programs that never were. She was superb at compromising. Her College Roommate used to say sally could study through whistling tea kettle but then sally said i can be intense and come home and, quote flipflops which marked oblivion. That made her such a terrific friend. There with things i did not know about sally ride. I did not appreciate the psychic price she paid for her celebrity. This introvert who made thousands, tens of thousands of , signed autographs, did all of that, set herself up for every single public occasion. I did not know she had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in march of 2011 which would take her life 16 months later at the age of 69. I did know until i wrote her obituary she was in a loving relationship with another woman for 27 years. Sally ride is very good at keeping secrets. I am sorry she felt she was not able to the public about her Long Partnership but is also part of her story because ours is also the story of a particular time and place and a woman who had the brains and agility to seize the moment. When sally was born in 1951 outer space was Science Fiction and womens rights were marginal. The social advances and lucky timing that would enable the gifted young scientists to intersect to makers an inspiring lesson in modern history, she took full good vantage of the ever widening definition of womens place and made sure was everywhere but she could not would not openly identify herself as a gay woman reflects not only her intense need for privacy but the shame and fear and intolerance society can inflict even on its heroes. Tremendously is secure. In the course of writing her biography i found an extraordinary woman. California girl who wanted to save the planet an introvert whose radiant spirit pulled her into Public Service, an academic who could explain rich got to College Students and the wonders of weightlessness to a roomful of little girls lasalle in never planned her life five or 20 years the ten years down the road but when opportunity knocked she was able to open the door and sail right through it. Look at her life she thought she wanted to be a tennis player, pivoted back into science and that didnt work out. She wanted to be an academic, pivoted right into space history when that opportunity presented itself. She knew how to seize the moment and to be ready for it when it appeared. I used to tell her that that moment when she read the article in the stafford newspaper and saw that nasa was recruiting women i said how prescient of you, alex gordon terry, what a life lanes in finkel won game changer. Sally told a different moral from it, i guess the message is she told a lot it college audiences read your college newspaper. She did it all with a smile. Years after her flighty she shared the thought that one day, three times the size of this one, filled with 1,000 youngsters, imagine this room in space, she said to them, you could do 35 somersaults and wrote. My favorite thing about space is being weightless. There is not even a close second. Every eye in the room would be wide. A great recruiting techniques. Sally was an icon to kids and grownups like. At 51 2 sheet and anticipate the best of them. As one colleague put it it was only after you left her presence you realize she was really short. It was that ability to be bigger than you actually are. Flying in space was neither her childhood goal nor her adult commitment. But having done it twice she cherished the inventor. The things ive learned from sally, flying lessons. I think her ability to pay that, to focus, the magnificent optimism that allowed her to ignore adversely and carry on. All of that teaches me and everyone else how to fly high without ever leaving earth. Perlite reminds us that whenever our own personal limits there is something out their way granters and we can measure more models than we can imagine something waiting to be explored. She proved you dont need to have right planning to have the right stuff. After bravely smashing through the celestial Glass Ceiling without messing up she brought back the ultimate flying lesson. She was asked over and over what did you see out there . Si tell us what you saw out there . Sally ride translated the dazzling reality she saw from space into a beam of encouragement for the rest of us on earth. What did she see out there . The stars dont look bigger, she said, but they do look brighter. Sally ride at 61 years on this planet343 hours and 47 minutes and 42 seconds in space, definitely made our lives and writer. I mourn her death twoyears ago but i read police in her life. Was the perfect first and erica woman in space and a terrific friend. Thank you very much. [applause] time for a few questions. If anyone would like to ask the question would they come up the aisle and use this microphone . No questions . [inaudible question] the woman she was, to not fit into society. I think she didnt talk about it much but the answer is she had an amazingly open minded her father was an eisenhower republican, purple heart winner from world war ii, her mother was a reconstructed lefty, she canceled out her husband every single time. Sally grew up in a family that talked about everything deeply believe in education, education was the way forward. She was a baby boomer. Of baby boomer who went and did what she wanted to do, and there are never any barriers, this was a socially openminded family that let their girls do what they want to do not what they thought, not what parents thought they ought to do. Choice ride, it alive and kicking in her 90s and the wonderful woman, husband died some years ago. Benign neglect. Our style of parenting was benign neglect. We let the girls be who they were which i think is understating their influence on her. It was a combination of having wonderful parents. Salad was the beneficiary of exquisite timing. When she came of age and the nasa recruitment started, she already had the advantage of laws being changed, minds being changed more importantly and she fit right into that. She had a couple of very gifted teachers and she talks about a science professor she had in high school who really changed the trajectory of her life. She wanted science and this Science Teacher helped her understand the elegance of science and helped her appreciate what a beautiful thing it was. Sally thought science was fun, science is cool, it was not about a guy with funny einstein hair in a White Lab Coat living in the basement working by himself. Science was about working together. Science was team work. This is why she was a great crew member she loved team work. Cheaper for double to singles in her tennis. All of these things, in making her a Great Team Player and an individual who broke through as many barriers as she could. A wonderful person. Thank you. Where were you back then . What date in june of 83 that she set off . It was june 17th. I will say seventeenth. I have it written down here. I will look it up. I think it the eighteenth june 18th, 1973. How many of you remember sallys lunch . Did it mean something to you . Yes . No . Yes . I think it really did. I think it was one of those seminal moments in america when a lot of people stopped and watched and it made such a huge difference which was great. I am leaving through this for the exact date because i dont want to have said the wrong date and have 1200 people writing the. Any more questions . Yes . June 18th definitely. Did sally ever talk to you you mentioned the pressure she was under as the first female in space, did she talk to you subsequent about the pressure that she was larger than life, she was larger to the public than she was as a person so as she went out all the things she did after being the first woman, she understood the impact. Keep in mind this was not a woman, we could sit and gossiped about people about certain things, she didnt talk about her own feelings. This is not the way she functioned, i knew the way she conducted herself. How much she hated the attention. You know what our celebrity culture is like now. It wasnt that bad in 1983 and subsequently but it was bad. People want to touch you. People want to get in your space. This is so antithetical to who sally ride was. When she would come to new york, the first time she came when she was really famous the nypd have a Bodyguard Service for her and she dismissed them all. Sheep provide on her husband to body block everywhere which was fine. But she knew that other than what i needed for my job i was not going to blow her cover and we would slip in and out of places and i would protect her on occasion as everybody did when asked. To was very troubling to her. The only way i got into her soul a little bit and it is all in the book, during the time of her flight and right after she did keep a journal, never again the rest of her life and she talks about the impact on her soul and talked to me about it but talk to her diary about it and it turns out she consulted a psychotherapist as well. All of those early speeches drove her i dont mean that in a negative way, send her to seek help from up professionals so she could try to understand, i dont remember the exact phrase diary talks about the advice she got was she was trying to understand how or why talking about it so much in public took the experience away from her. She wanted to keep it as her private experience and had to share it with the public. This was troubling to her. I wish she had talked more about herself her soul, her deepest wishes and she just didnt. It was the way she was. Great work on tv. Knowing this is a time of great change i wonder if you have any insight into how the other astronauts on the shuttle flight accepted her. They were certainly openly accepting but how did they really i have spoken to all of them and theyre very good friends of mine, four men and sallys first flight. There are a number of answers to that question. One is on the one hand they were all thrilled to be flying. The goal when you become an astronaut is to fly. They could have said 14 monkeys and four spiders were going and they would be fine with that. Also, all four of them were military guys and with military backgrounds and their hold training was it is not about me. It is about the admission. They were thrilled on one level but sally was the one getting all the attention. They didnt have to do the dreaded press interviews with people like me who say how do you feel about that flight and what will you be doing . They loved that it was sally. They liked the fact that because of sally they were invited to the white house for the First Time Ever they had lunch with president reagan. They liked all of the extra attention they got. They were happy to give it to her. They really liked working with sally. There is no other way to put it. I talked to them all. It is not fake, it is not funny, they became quite good friends and enjoyed working with her, she proved herself not only proved equal weight but surpassed a lot of them in certain ways. Commander bob crippen enjoyed having her on his next flight, he was the commander of and last mission. They liked it just fine. Yes . Why are you broadcasting . I left abc, i should probably have the exact date somewhere but i dont, six years ago. Was time. I have a wonderful career in journalism before it that. The business was changing in a way that i didnt love and i thought it was time for me to answer to my own bells as opposed to a desk telling me what to do. I didnt like the direction things were. Serious challenges that it cant figure out how to cope with, though my generalization of the audience and if rationalization of the audience, and competing for everyones attention. I was lucky enough every time i complained about something Peter Jennings who was one of my closest friends would say we lived through the golden years, and i lived through a great time. I lived through a time in Television News when getting the story was the only thing that mattered when the story more mattered more than the correspondents when news was a Public Service, when the bottom line was less important than getting the truth. A lot of that has changed unfortunately. [applause] there are a challenges they are trying to face right now. I dont like the way they are facing all of them. I think people are trying. There are still terrific reporters out there. With the budget cutbacks, i hate to start this way but when i was a correspondent, when i was in television, we had editors. Not tape editors, film editors, word editors and i could turn into a script and somebody perhaps with more experience and wiser than i would say you cant say that. What is the source of this . And i would go back and find the source and fix it and i would make it right and learn. With pressures of 247 news right now with the budget cutbacks there are not these editors, there is not time stuff is being thrown on the air and to say this is right or wrong theres almost no accountability and it is sad. The public is not as well served as we all should be. One part of 24 7 news is it takes away the methodology that the reporter knows what is going on but by the same token we are trained to ask questions and figure out what is true and not true and the public is not being served many times. I dont mean to be screaming do and gloom but we have a lot of lessons and i love writing books. Thank you. Thank you. Challenging thank you. Sally was very close for a while and i could tell by her manner how she felt. Challenger exploded. You may recall there was a Memorial Service at the Johnson Space center where president reagan spoke very eloquently and i was there. My husband was in california and met me there and we went to dinner with sally and steve and steves father was the minister and spoke of the Public Service that was televised. The next day we were at their house and sally got a phone call and was the phone call asking her to be on the Rogers Commission. I could tell from the grim look on her face how she felt. I knew how she felt. This is something i have to do. Sally was horrified she lost seven friends, crisp and the gulf Christa Mcauliffe was not a friend but she knew her, dick scobee was a close friend, keep in mind this was challenger that exploded during that accident sally had flown on challenger twice. Both times she flew she sat in the Flight Engineer seat. In the cockpit is the commander and pilot and the Flight Engineer sit right behind them. Sallys job on lift off and reentry was she had all but check sheets, checklists opening front of her and if something went wrong, she was the one who called out the sequence of events, nothing ever went wrong judy resnik was sitting in that seat when challenger exploded. Sally said i often thought about judy sitting there because that was my seat. As she got on the commission and learned what happened she was particularly incensed by nasas behavior. Not everyone at nasa, managers, the guys at the Marshall Space Flight center and the people of Martin Thiokol who built the rocket sally said over and over she would shake her head she just was astounded that anybody could do it so badly. I had the only interview with sallied during the Rogers Commission hearings and i said to her given the way things are now would you fly again . She said i am not ready to fly now. Exhibiting the fact she had lost faith at that moment. What is important to know about sally is she didnt say a pox on you, you did badly i never want to talk to you again. Her job was to fix it so she was part of that commission that recommended a set of things they should do ensure enough they did and they did fix it and it did get better and there were many successful launches until columbia in 2003 when she famously said at one of the hearings i am beginning to hear a kind of echo here. Said the same trend to bad management the lesson had been learned but not well enough. Once again they fixed it. Nasa had 133 out of 135 successful shuttle launches. That is a pretty good record that there is no reason those lives had to be lost ever and sally would be the first person to say to you that was wrong and i guess she would say that nasa and messed up. So she was very angry, but such an optimist that she would never have said disband nasa. She said fix it and lets move on. That was her hope. Thank you all. One more as we do one more. Do i have time or not . Sally was a friend with a great relationship it was a real marriage, sally was probably trying to decide when she was doing with her life. I talk about her relationships with men and women and she wound up the way she wanted to go. It makes me sad that she couldnt talk about it publicly. This was her choice and it gave her a little of the kind of privacy that she needed. One more time, thank you very much. [applause] [inaudible conversations] remind you at 11 40 wheat will have Edward Larson. And and Christopher Rice will be talking tomorrow at 11 00. [inaudible conversations] rogan bracket inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] booktv is live today from savannah, georgia. Starting surely, Edward Larson 11 on George Washington. A look at the current bestselling nonfiction books according to the New York Times. Up next the best of this list continues. That is a look at this weekends list of nonfiction bestsellers according to the New York Times. The great twelfth david carr media columnist for New York Times passed away at the age of 58. Mr car appeared on booktv in 2008 to talk about his memoir the night of the gun. I would have liked as a parentas a person to go back and find out that i was actually just a jolly kid from the suburbs who had a problem. That is not what i found. In the course of the interviews i found out id put a lot of people at risk around me and even when i did recover it was going to and responsible primarily for the love and attention other people hold me, a whole tribe of people came, lifting and pooling r d so my arabic narrative really did not fit with what i had learned. Part of what got me started on but book was my daughters were going to college in tuition tends to focus the mind, it tends to beckoned the news. At the same time they were writing their essays for college and their essays about our life growing together and what it was like to have been born two months premature, to drugaddicted parents and then have your dad raise you mostly by himself was fundamentally different in my own and after i read their essays what other people would say. In my day job i work at the New York Times and never will be met a story that didnt get better when you applied the leverage of reporting to it. So i said go back and interview a bunch of different people. It is all on a website, you can check out the interviews and i did. What i found was different from what i remembered and i realize overtime you will find this true in your own life, it is not if you think of the stories your family tells to explain itself to each other how many of those stories are exactly precisely true . Is it is a way of understanding our past and coming to publish a version of ourselves not all of these stories are bad. There is the point in the book where edison presumptive custodial parent of my twins so i went and saw the family law attorney who made it happen and i was pretty much like baby jesus when you saw me. I was sober, it was an open and shut case. And nice lady named barbara, you can see her on the video tape trying to figure out how to say what she is about to say to me which is you were released huge. You didnt smell very good. You dress like a homeless person and we wondered about the ethics of placing children in your hands, whether you fully understood the implications of that and not baby jesus, no more like an unholy mess actually and the thing about that is if i had known how i stand at the time and how unfit i was to be a parent of these baby girls i would have found that paralyzing. Diss lie or fable i told myself allowed me to hang in to get the parent and some of these stories end up helping us on our way. [inaudible conversations] in about ten minutes live coverage of Edward Larson 11 talking about his book on George Washington from the savannah book festival. You are watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and doctors every weekend. BookTv Television for serious readers. Joining us now on booktv is former health and Human Services secretary louis sullivan. Dr. Louis sullivan. Dr. Sullivan, when did you decide you were going to become a medical doctor . At age 5. My father was a funeral director in southwest george and among other things, Ambulance Services to people transported as a doctor. My father would ask me to go with him to help because at age 5 i was curious and had a role model, in southwest georgia in bainbridge south of blakely where we live so from age 5 i wanted to be like dr. Griffin. He is very successful, highly respected in the community. People thought he was a great citizen but to me he was the magician. He could make people well. I decided that was what i wanted to do. I decided at age 5, love science love working with people being a doctor combines both of those very well. Southwest georgia in the year at that you grew up what were the race considerations you had to face . They were very difficult. My father was an activist. Restarted a chapter for the naacp 1937. My mother was a schoolteacher. As a result of my fathers activism, in 20 years my mother never got a job in blakely Teaching School she had to drive 20 or 30 miles to other towns where she worked as a teacher but in addition to founding the naacp chapter she worked to really work against the white primary that excluded blacks from participating, establish an annual emancipation Day Celebration january 1st of every year. My parents sent me and my brother back to atlanta to attend school because schools were segregated in the 30s and 40s, not very good. All of that was a great imprint on the because my parents were committed to my brother and myself getting a good education so i finished high school in atlanta, went to Morehouse College in atlanta and University Medical school, the year i graduated in 1954 was the same year brown vs. Board of education came out from the Supreme Court. When i graduated from college i could not go to medical school, did very well, my First Experience in 1954. When i went to boston as a non segregated society. I wonder how my classmates would accept me. Bottomline is i was accepted without any problems whatsoever. I became class president and finished third in my class and went on to cornell and harvard for postgraduate training and ended up on the faculty. In 1975 Morehouse College recruited me back to atlanta from boston. That has led to my meeting with to Vice President bush to help dedication of the various building reconstructed in july of 82. I was lobbying him in 1988 for one of my trustees i thought would be a great secondary. He turned the tables and asked me to serve as secretary so that is how i became secretary of health and Human Services. What do you consider your biggest accomplishment . Waging the war against tobacco use. Tobacco use fan ends today is the number one preventable cause of death. I had nothing against executives in the Tobacco Industry except their product kills people. As a physician and as a Nations Health secretary my responsibility is to do everything i can to protect, preserve and enhance the health of the American People. We were very successful, we waged efforts against r. J. Reynolds when they were going in january of 1990 to introduce a new cigarette in philadelphia called uptown. It so happens at the time i was thinking in pennsylvania so my speech included an attack against r. J. Reynolds, producing this unfiltered and collated cigarette. I was in for a fight over many months. They surprised me because we 2 weeks later they announced they were not proceeding because of new cigarettes they were going to test. Other things i am proud of introducing a new food label, what are the foods they are eating, the impact they may have. Thirdly introducing more diversity in to the process, the first woman to head to the National Institutes of health, the only woman was dr. Bernadine healy that i recommended for appointment, the first black to head social security, gwendolyn king. I wanted to change the culture of the department. A few more minutes with former hhs secretary louis sullivan, breaking ground is his autobiography, my life in medicine, forward by andrew young. You are watching the tv on cspan2. Here is a look at books being published this week New York Times reporter mary pilon. Look for these titles in bookstores in coming weekend watch for your favorite authors on booktv. Org. [inaudible conversations] booktv is back live in savannah at Trinity United Methodist church. Up next, historian at the 11 discusses his newest book the return of George Washington 17831789. [inaudible conversations] good morning and happy valentines day, book lovers. I am delighted to welcome you to the 8 havana book festival and to thank the festivals 2015 sponsors bob and jean fairclock. We are pleased to watch such celebrated authors at Trinity United Methodist church made possible by the generosity of jim and and haiti, International Paper foundation, Savannah Morning News and savannah magazine. We would also like to thank cspan for coming to the festival today and filming live here. You will notice the lights, we are sorry about the lights but this is what happens to us. I would like to thank peter who refuse to give his last name just now and i didnt remember it from when we were introduced but he has been fantastic. He has been careful and looked after all of us. We would like to extend special thanks to our individual donors who make saturdays festival events possible. If you would like to learn your support, we welcome your donation and provide buckets at the door as you exit. Take on moment to turn off your telephones. We would like to ask you not to use flash photography. The question and answer portion we ask the you line up down the aisle in the center and use the microphone so that everybody can hear your questions. Immediately following the presentation, Edward Larson will sell copies of his books. Edward larson is the author of nine books and 100 published articles. In his recent book the return of George Washington, mr. Larsen recovers a critically important yet almost always overlooked chapter of George Washingtons life were revealing how washington saved the United States by coming out of retirement to lead the Constitutional Convention and serve as our first president. He teaches lectures and writes about issues of law politics, science, medicine from a historical perspective. He received the 1998 Pulitzer Prize in history for his book summer for the gods. The scopes trial and americas continuing debate on science and religion. His articles have appeared in American History nature, atlantic monthly, Scientific American isis, the nation, the wall street journal, most importantly the georgia review and over a dozen different law reviews. Please welcome Edward Larson. [applause] first of all i want to thank you for having me here. Savannah is one of my Favorite Places and being here on valentines day, how better could be . We are having a wonderful time. The organizers have been fabulous how they organize this event. They deserve the applause you can give them. The way they pull people together, the level of contact they made with me in organizing this event, i wish to thank my only possible criticism is that they scheduled me right up against mr. Gwyn next door. I used to teach civil war history. Lots of books come out on the civil war but not many of them are as good as his book rebel yell. Of all of possible people to be scheduled up against i find that a little daunting coin. Thank you for being here. Is event must be full. Second i thank my host j. Ford was my host last night, took me to a wonderful dinner, the only possible qualm i have with that is took me after the authors reception, it was very late and was the pink house. They brought me a piece of fish that is bigger than a plate, the tailstock out on one end and there was so much food that i am stuff and i figure i have to speak. The only wise than i did was liquor too. I turned down the wine and liquor and dime stuff from that food. I was not so lucky at lunch. I had a wonderful pleasure of you probably know him. A wonderful daughter and couldnt restrain on of liquor, not being there with sunny. After it that i was in the afternoon, there was some more drinking and tried to look up in any way. Second, i would say i try to be somewhat brief i am not the only one standing between you and lunch. Were and savannah, one of the greatest places to eat. So i talk about my riding but i tried to get to questions for two reasons, if you are asking questions, i am talking about things you want to hear about rather than what i guess you want to hear about and second if i keep you on it is because you keep asking questions and therefore is the questionnaires fault you are held from lunge in savannah. What i thought i would do, i thought i would begin by just the very beginning and of the preface, never read anything from the preface but it will introduce what i want to say about myself in the book. A very short beginning here. On a chilly spring morning in april of 2013 i sat on Mount Vernons broad front the odds the, over the potomac river, the window from the of stairs bed room was over my right shoulder. The east facing door to his First Floor Office directly behind me, washington would have seen much the same view 225 years ago knowing it might be a long time before he observed it again. The American People call him to the presidency and he was preparing to leave his beloved mount vernon plantation of seat of government in new york on april 16, 1789. Due to private preservation efforts and public land use restrictions is this the over the potomac the one washington most loved and built his the odds of to frame survives virtually unchanged in the midst of northern virginias urban sprawl. As an inaugural fellow at the National Library for the study of George Washington with the residency on the ground of mount vernon i was able to enjoy this and other scenes on washingtons plantation many times over the course of the year. The view from this be out the became my favorite too especially at sunrise in the spring and flowering trees and give off a warm glow in earlymorning light. It was obvious why washington was reluctant to leave mount vernon for publicservice image of the neither sought nor wanted. And six months earlier follow fellow Virginian James madison, urging him to solve in the federal government applied equally to himself however. Supporters of the new constitution and the union it created he implored madison, for getting personal combine their collective efforts through service and the new government to avert the Great National calamities that attended without it. By 1787 four years since america secure its independence washington came to believe the country face as great a threat from internal forces of diss union in the mid 1780s as it had from external ones in the 1770s. When he accepted leadership of the patriot army at the outset of the revolutionary war, now his country again called his service, this time as the elected leader of the worlds first extended republic. That is the opening of my preface. If you know what a preface is it is not an introduction and not an acknowledgment. Usually book start with a preface. They may have also an introduction, they may begin with an acknowledgement. I have used all three in my books. This time i chose a preface. It tells you something about the author in a book but it is not essential if you are a reader, you dont need to read the preface. The book begins after the preface either with the introduction or with the first chapter. If you are a reader you shall always read the introduction. The introduction sets up the book. You cannot understand a book without the introduction. I begin my book on the scope trial, the Pulitzer Prize was an introduction. You cant read the book if you start with chapter 1 or you are missing something and it is a strong introduction that stars with the famous famous amis crossexamination of William Jennings bryan on the stand and you get that up front and the idea of an introduction is to hook the reader and that introduction, my book is often using graduate history classes, structure of books and that is one thing people look for, you start with that hook to connect you. Some people dont have an introduction. They begin with chapter 1. I would be curious how many of you read the prefaces. It is to most of you start with the practice usually . The introduction i hope you will remember you are really missing something, acknowledgements, how many people read the acknowledge on . Authors do. When i am reading a book i always read the acknowledgements. Practices you dont need to read it. My book really begins with chapter 1. It begins with chapter 1. That sets the stage but the preface again tells you something about the author and the book. This is the book festival and i was given instructions, you want to hear about the writing process and the book as well as myself i thought it would be good to pull out front there. What does this particular preface tell you about me and about the book . I am in a church, i am in a Methodist Church, i was told you are supposed to have three topics in a sermon so i will take three things that deals with. First it tells a little bit from what you heard and if you hear more of it, how i research. You will see i started talking about placing me in mount fern in. Important to me as the historian to be on site to actually know the place and to know the ground as well as the historical record. I am an academic historian. I do have a day job. I am not only a writer but i live to write. The way i write, the way i research is not going to make a historian. I have to read all the records. I read so many records about washington, so many letters, so many articles, so many diaries but also wanted to be on site and that was the advantage of mount vernon they enabled me to have a scholarship where i could live on the ground and have an apartment on the ground. If you ever visited mount vernon it opened during the day and there are hordes of tourists. Theyre cute student groups with students marginally interested garage groups from overseas, seems like it is well known, washington is well known around the world and you cant get a feel for the place. Since i was on the grounds i could walk around will for the place opened after it closed so i could go sit on the great front porch and sit there and i would be the only one there and go over my notes in the morning and watched the sun rise over the potomac and in the evening walk around on the grounds. They still try to preserve the original pipes the early types of cattle. It is a wonderful place but it gives you a unique field because what i was writing about washington was when he was there. It was not when he was fighting the revolutionary war or when he was president. Was when he was back home and being there, going around whiskey distillery and seeing where he farmed, going to different areas where his farms were. He was a handson manager of his farm. People to get a five farms in the area. A lot of money where he married well and was able to buy the farm nearby and would force an everyday and inspect the works so i could experience with the experience and that gave me a closer feel for what he was like and also there were so many documents defy had any questions i could pull up the original document to look at the original false teeth which gives you a unique or what i was talking about in the book i talk about his brown suit, he famously war and american maid suit for his inauguration as president. Very few gentlemen war American Made cloth. He never wore it before but he thought when he was being inaugurated president he should wear an american suit and there was only one place in america that made fine cloth which it had just opened in connecticut so he sent a note to good friend of his, number 2 man in the revolutionary war, henry knox. Some of the main know of him. Of massachusetts bookseller before the revolution and he was quite large but he was head of artillery and became secretary of war. So he heard about this place that made fine cloth and washington was close and tried to pick the best, i trust you. The color is not too good. Pick one that looks the best. That is what the wind up with. He wore a brown suit for his inauguration. I could see the suit itself. Putin out of the box the very one he wore. It is a wonderful thing to be, to do onsite research in mount vernon. Indeed, that may explain some of the book. The first book of mind that got a lot of attention, the first two, i got a book about scopes trial that ended up winning and after that i could write about anything i wanted to so i started thinking about on site what should i write about next . I just wrote about the scopes trial and led to many trips to dayton, tennessee. It was in tennessee. My second was on the Galapagos Islands that led to 17 trips to the Galapagos Islands when i could be with scientists working whistle i picked that in part because of 5 wanted to do handson research i would do it on the galapagos rather than tennessee, no offense today in. I wrote a later book about antarctica and went to the south pole and go down to all the places and in fact i came back from antarctic a because i came here from antarctic aware i was last week. It may be colder here. I am not quite sure. I didnt expect that. I thought i would warm up finally but that help inform my top picks in being able to be at mount vernon for a historian is a real street, it is like at mecca. The introduction suggests that. It puts me in mount vernon. I dont talk about any place in the book, i talkedabout washington after that. It talks about my style. I try to embarrass myself in both the place and the document. I read all the documents but if you are Walking Around dayton tennessee in the courtroom, staying in the room john scopes lived in, if you are in the place where William Jennings bryan lived, if you are there, at mount vernon you cant learn things you can never get out of the documents, it deepens your understanding it is not just mount vernon there are other places, i read about the newburg conspiracy, and it was very important in American History, it covers the liberation of new york city, came down from living for a long time in the valley, the Hudson Valley where he was in camp the encampment so i was at the encampment, you walk a ground and learn more about it but you understand the writing and i try to have that reflected in my work. In that sense i view myself as a historian. I dont write historical fiction but i am inspired by historical fiction and love to read historical fiction. And James Mcpherson catches it in the battle cry of freedom. Is a wonderful book. Ft cant trust everything in it as fact but it does give you the sense of the place. I try to use a lot of quotations because i try to make which makes differentiating to me from some historians, but i try to have an eye for the quote that really captures something. I never use a long block and [inaudible] quote. When i read, i always skip those. I figure if the author cant summarize it why is he forcing me to do it . So i use small quotes, ones that are below 50 words so you dont have to block in denim. Then i figure thats my job as a historian, to pull out the quirks of it. And if theres more than 50 words in a letter that we need to hear, well, you can use a couple quotes and use a connection the way youre talking about it. Because i think you need to hear the authentic words, but you just dont want to get lost in some long quotes. You might as well read the original rather than do that. So i try to pull out so im better when i can, when i can write a book about good authors and good writers and good speakers. The scopes trial, how brilliant. I had Clarence Darrow and William Jennings bryan. And at the top of their game. My book about the 1800 election, i could draw on Thomas Jefferson. Who could write like him . And john adams another great writer. They could write like angels both of them. They could also conspire like demons, and you see that in the 1800 election book of their fierce infighting vertebras election vicious vicious election. But, boy, could they write. So it was wonderful for quoting from. Now, that played into it was surprising how good a writer George Washington is. We dont think of him as a speaker and a writer, but he was a voluminous letter writer. He was writing letters all the time, especially during this period when he was pulling the country together these wrangling 13 states to make a union. So he was writing all of his friends and acquaintances from the time of the revolutionary war who had now scattered to their separate states such as john jay in new york or henry or knox up in massachusetts i already mentioned him the morriss down here, the pinckneys of south carolina. He had a lot of attachments here in georgia. So hes trying to pull this place together before the Constitutional Convention that led to the convention, and then after it in the ratification battles, he was actually a very good writer. And so i could pull on his original letters and quote from them. Of course, he was corresponding with some excellent writers people like lafayette, jefferson, ben franklin and so i can have the letters back and forth. Calls many speech also many speeches. So i could draw on quotations. Again, not long ones not ones that i think lose the readers. I always figure readers are somewhere like myself, and i get lost with too long a quotation. But a pithy one makes it authentic, so i use a lot of quotations. Thats part of my style, you saw that in there. I also want to bring my figures to life. And that was one of the wonderful things about washington. I mean its easy being tom jefferson, bringing Thomas Jefferson to life. He had, he was a very human person. Its easy to bring a Clarence Darrow or a William Jennings bryan. But George Washington, we have this view of washington, for many people hes like a wax figure in madam trudeaus museum. Or a carved figure up on mount rushmore, he is distant to a lot of us. I think a lot of it is that terrible picture painted on the 1 bill, that was paint near death with a bulging, he looks like a squirrel with his oversized false teeth. Actually, thats not what washington was like, and i got to see that in this period of his life when he was much younger before the presidency and after he was a general when he was not in political power when he didnt have or military power. He didnt have an office. He was a farmer. He was a plantation owner. He was a private citizen. And i could find out that he was a very, very affable person. He was a wonderful conversationalist. He was a great retail politician. He could tell stories at parties. He loved to go to parties, he loved to dance. He would go to a party of course, he was the choice, he was when he was young, he was incredibly handsome because he was huge 62 and 200 pounds and when men were a lot shorter and women were a lot shorter. His wife particularly, was a lot shorter. She was under fife feet tall. It was an interesting matchup, but a profitable one nonetheless. And they were a wonderful couple. But people loved to talk to him. He was a great storyteller. In that way he was like a Hillary Clinton or Ronald Reagan bill clinton or Ronald Reagan. Even better than hollywood. And he loved to dance with the ladies. Hed always dance with every lady at the balls he went to and he always went to balls because he loved them. He loved to go to teas. Teas were popular back then so i could present washington as a person, and thats the comment that ive liked best that ive heard from so many people in the reviews and in the amazon. Com comments. He said, he makes washington come alive. Hes actually like he could be a human being and not this wax figure. Thats what i came to see. He had personal characteristics. I think thats important because if we want to learn from these people, we cant learn from a wax figure. We can learn history should be relevant to us today because people dont change. Issues change, we have different sorts of issues, but people are is the same. And washington had incredible virtues. He was truly a great man because of his personal characteristics and his personal virtues. But theyre all virtues that we could have too. So i could see i dont have one, but i could see having a bracelet what would george do, or what would washington do. You could go a long way with that sort of advice. You also were able to learn individual things about him because i was dealing with this period, and i got to be at mount vernon. First, he never had any wooden teeth. Ive seen his teeth at mounter vernon mount vernon. They have many of his false teeth. Ive seen them other places. He never had wooden teeth, i can assure you of that. What made people think he had wooden teeth is he had many of them made from some of them made from walrus tusks were ivory, and those pick up tea stains. And he was a he drank so much tea, i dont know how he stayed in bed at night. [laughter] southerners who drink sweet tea, and i dont know how he went to sleep because he drank so much tea. I guess you get immune to it. But they would stain his teeth. Now, not all of his teeth were ive seen many of them, and theyre sort of interesting to look at. By the end or at least by the period i was dealing with, he only had one of his own teeth left. It was a molar. So these false teeth had a hole in them where hed fit it over that one molar on the top and the bottom, you know, they werent the greatest fit in the world. And thats why he wasnt i think why he wasnt a great speaker. Because it was tough to speak up here like i am with your teeth sort of falling. But if youre one to one next to him, you know, you can talk fine. But to make a speech, it was sort of uncomfortable. So many of his great addresses like his farewell address when he stepped down were printed only. Printed in the newspaper rather than spoken. But not all of his teeth as i said were ivory. One that i discovered when i was there other people knew this, its not like it was an original discovery, but ive seen it. He also had teeth made, which was common back then, made with human teeth, with slaves teeth. And theyd pull them out of, you know, theyd take them from some of his slaves. And i looked through and i found i was helped on this, i was helped with researchers in many ways but i found ledgers where he paid the slaves 17 shillings per tooth, at least during my period, for the teeth that would then go into his false teeth. They actually tried to implant some of them during my period, implant them in him. You know, make a hole pull it from the slave and put it right up in his own mouth. They didnt work for him, but they did some of these implants worked. There was one french dentist who came over, he came over during the revolution, and he also visited mount vernon several times and tried this procedure. And i was curious about 17 shillings. Well, i suppose you dont have to pay your slaves anything for their teeth if you really want them, but he did. But i was curious how that played out, so i managed to look through the records. He lived right through arlington, virginia, and there was a newspaper in arlington, and so when the dentist would come up and also be doing transplants not just for washington, but for others i looked what was the going rate for teeth . If you were buying teeth on the free market, how much did they cost . 42 shillings was the offer in newspapers anybody willing to sell their teeth, so i think washington got a good deal at 17 shillings. [laughter] for the teeth. I do not, i dont know whether the slaves volunteered for 17 shillings or if he asked them. I dont know that. I suspect they volunteered. Also during this period he made another thing that was very human about washington. He remember he grew up. When he was born he didnt know if hed inherit a lot of money. He wasnt like Thomas Jefferson or James Madison who was born into wealth. His father was wealthy, had a plantation but he was from the second marriage. He had a lot of half brothers from the first marriage, and they were going to inherit. And washington thought hed have to work for a living, so he became a surveyor, and he was out on the frontier. He also tried to join the british navy, but his mother wouldnt let him go in the british navy. And he loved being out on the frontier, he was home on the frontier. And during this period i got to write about, i got to experience, he got to go back to the frontier. Hes the most famous person in the world, here he was, you know the liberator of america. Everybody knew George Washington. But he had Frontier Holdings from before the war, and he had to go out and try to make them profitable. So he went out on the frontier over brad docks road braddocks road and he tried to visit his frontier plantation early in his retirement from being general, and they scared the bejesus out of him because he got out there, and the frontier they were, as he put it later, on a pivot. They were ready to leave the United States. The british had never left the frontier force. They were still trading the with the indians for furs, and they need guns to shoot those furs and those are just as good at shooting settlers. Spain was moving up into the southwest from new orleans pushing into mississippi and alabama which were parts of georgia back then. Georgia was on the run almost. The native americans were pushing georgia back. And you were losing a lot of the federal territories because the United States had no army, because it had no taxes. There were no the Central Government, such as it was had no ability to raise taxes, therefore, it couldnt have an army, couldnt defend the frontier, and the trade was going up through canada or going down the mississippi. So these frontier settlers, they had no interest well they got to the first settlers, first Frontier Land ownings, and they didnt want to pay him. Got to the second one, there were squatters on his territory who wouldnt leave. And, in fact, he got so mad at them, he cutsed at them kissed at them, and cussed at them, and they fined him. Thats how they treated George Washington. And he couldnt get to the third one because the native americans were in the way and he had been warned they were going to ambush him. They had already killed his agent, scalped him and then burned him alive. You dont die with scalping apparently. And this were waiting for washington, so he never got to his third territory. So he comes back and immediately sends off letters, we have got to do something were going the lose the frontier. Were going to lose it if we dont have a stronger, more effective union. So seeing that, going those places and many of those places where hed stopped are still part and he thought well how do i connect the frontier with the east . I write about this in the book. They need a canal. Theyre going to go up the st. Lawrence river or the mississippi river, weve got to build some sort of canal. Canal building was big back then in england and france, and, of course he knew all those people from the revolution their war. Weve got to build a canal from the potomac over to the ohio so they can get their goods to market because only by commerce can we keep this country together. And so he ends up being president of the Canal Company trying to build a canal. But he goes out there, and he comes back. Instead of following the settled route, he says im going to find a way to run this canal. So he got on a horse, and he was a huge man. He was a great horseman, a great horseman. And he came back just like he was a kid. You can read his can accounts of it the letters he writes of it. He just here he is, George Washington the most famous person in the world, and he bush whacks across whats now West Virginia and ohio sleeps, sleeps out in the open driving rain sometimes just under his cloak. He drops in at country cabins, can you imagine . Youre out the in the middle of nowhere in a little shed, somebody knocks on the door and you open it up, and its George Washington . You have nothing to serve him. Some places, he said, there was just a little corn, nothing for his horse, but he was blazing a trail. But you can tell that he loved it. He was in his 50s, but he was like a kid again because thats where he was happiest. Well, this is the George Washington, you know, it could be into the wild. Theres a great book for you i was thinking he would have gone up to alaska if he could have. Its another sort of story about washington, you get to feel what hes really like. Again, i got to see his clothes because i was doing his inauguration and despite all the pictures of him with a tricorner hat, he never wore a tricorner hat. He wore a bicorner hat. He never cut down a cherry tree so far as i know, but he planted a lot of trees. Some of them are still there. You can actually put your hand on a tree that George Washington himself planted. Theres some wonderful tulip poplars. So you get to get immersed in this great man who really can be his virtues can be a model for us today and also his lifestyle. He comes alive. Finally, the introduction sort of shows my choice of topics the last thing ill talk about. You see this in my books in general. Theres some historians and biographers and great journalists and writers who can take a topic that has been written about and written about and written about and just do it better. I think david mccollum, whos sons whose sons here, who can take a well known topic and just tell it very very, very well. Im not that sort of historian. I try to look for p gaps in the historical record, stories that arent told. So i wrote about the scopes trial because theres a great movie about it, inherit the wind, great play. I think its still showed, i think every high school probably puts it on. But no historian had ever researched and written about the scopes trial. No historian had ever done it. You can see it with some of my other books. Nobody had written about Charles Darwin telling an overall view of science and the galapagos. People talk about the south pole but nobody talks about the science done on those expeditions and activities done on those expeditions which i think and i think readers of my book will agree are just as gripping as anything scott am mundt did. 1800 elections same way. Thered never been a blowbyblow book about the 1800 election, so i took that topic. And by finding gaps in the literature, i could write about those in a way that would tell that story. Now, that brings me to washington, how people people ask me when they heard i was writing about washington, how in the world could yo, who write about gaps in the literature write about . Theres more books about him than any other american. But one of the things i had discovered and discovered it here while i was teaching at the university of georgia where i taught for 20 years is when you teach about American History you spend about two days or three day on the American Revolution, and its George Washington from cover to cover. Its all about George Washington as youre reading about it. Nathaniel green too, when youre covering the south. The fighting quaker, one of the great oxymorons of all time. [laughter] buried right here, a few blocks from us. Im a huge nathaniel green fan. But washington you get a lot about George Washington. Then you get, then you have a couple days or one day when youre talking about the confederation. You talk about the utter collapse of the con confederation how everythings going to hell in a handbasket, how the states are falling apart, the frontiers being lost as i mentioned between the friend and the british and the spanish vermont is actively conspiring to join british canada, a debtors insurrection in massachusetts, the Property Rights are in danger in georgia and in rhode island where theyre printing paper money like its going like they would have done in greece when they can, when they can print the drachma, and you have this massive inflation thats draining Property Rights, new yorks exporting all its taxes into connecticut and new jersey like theyd like to do today if they could but they actually could do then. Because there was no the Central Government didnt control interstate commerce. Every state could print us own money, could impose tariffs against other states and everyone, all these little tin pot governors were trying to expand their state at the expense of hair neighbors. And the country was of their neighbors. And the country was falling apart. The whole place was falling apart. And you talk about that period. But you hear nothing about washington. The last you heard was he went on back to his farm and was running his plantation. Now, then you get to, of course the first president ial administration when the federalists take over, and its all about washington again, because hes president. And im sitting there over time as im teaching this year after year because its not mentioned in the history books and not talked about much in the biographies of washington. What was this guy doing . He was the most famous man in the world a celebrity, by far the most beloved person in america, the only one close would be benjamin franklin. Hes gone back to his farm and hes just farming while everything hed fought for for nine years, as commander in chief nine years in the field without leave or pay . Thats sacrifice. And leading men, many of his men died in his service. And he cared deeply about those men. One thing about washington, he was very very loyal and very he had very close friends. Very close friends. People trusted him. Hes just sitting on his plantation and letting the country fall apart . So i wanted to go back. So i Read Everything that he wrote and everything that was written to him and he was a voluminous letter writer. And, of course, a letter from George Washington you never throw away. He was the most famous person. And so we have tremendous amounts of his letters. And i could read all the and he oh, my everyone wanted to visit him. So all these people were visiting his plantation. He would have 10, maybe 15 people staying there every night. These people would turn up unannounced and uninvited many times and stayed for the day, and then theres no inn nearby so spend the night. I have this great there was a great letter where he mentions, he sends off a letter in the late, long time after this in the 1790s where he writes, you know where he writes its in the late afternoon. No its in the midday. He writes if no one pops in yes, he did use that phrase nobody pops in in the next two hours, martha, my wife and i, will have something we havent had for over 20 years; dinner alone at mount vernon. He had so many guests, he never could eat alone. Now, i could follow their diary because, of course, their wrote about their visit to mount vernon. And so i could piece together what he was doing during this period. And, sure, he was farming. He was a wonderful farmer. He was a wonderful inventive farmer. He came up with new tech teaks. Techniques. He built the largest dis tillly in the United States distillery in the United States. And he had a he rotated his crops, and he innovated with fertilizers, and he changed crops. He changed from tobacco which wasnt profitable over to grains. He was a very innovative farmer. He was involved in that. But he was involved in saving the union. Constant letters to governors, to former revolutionary compatriots that he knew, to individuals all over the country, what can we do to save this country . And many of them would visit him. Madison spent months staying at mount vernon before the Constitutional Convention working out the details. He would write to people like knox and john jay saying what can we do, and hed take their letters and compile them in his own hands about what we need in a new constitution. He took that to philadelphia. And at philadelphia he was a handson negotiator to pull together and create the constitution. He wasnt a wax figure sitting up front. I came to the conclusion they often say in the textbooks that James Madison is the architect of the constitution. Well, if James Madison is the architect of the constitution and i wont take that away from him then George Washington was the general contractor. And any of you who have ever built a house or put an extension may know an architect may have a plan, but its the general contractor that gets it done and thats George Washingtons role during this period. That, i viewed, as a gap in the literature. Well or, ive already probably talked too long. Im scared to look here at the time, but thats the story i was able to pull together and tell. So if we have time, we have questions, i would be delighted to take questions x. If not, ill inflict some more reading on you. [laughter] yes. I dont know if im on or not. Youre on. Its been said about George Washington that he was not a great orator. I was struck, however, when i read your book about the newburg conspiracy that he was a consummate actor. And i think the audience might be interested in your perspective. Thats true. He wasnt a great orator but he was a great political actor. John adams, who rarely had a nice thing to say about anyone said about George Washington, of course john adams was eclipsed by him john adams was Vice President when washington was prime president , and he fought washington earlier over the conduct of the war he said washington had style, he knew how to command the stage. And at newburg he famously commanded the stage by giving a mumbling address but then had what was probably preplanned pulling out his glasses which people never saw, his reading glasses, and reading a letter. And he said, you know, going gray in your service, ive also lost my sight. And that humanized him before his men. And the newburg conspiracy was a Pivotal Point in America History where there was a coup aboot. And he squelched the coup not by what he said but how he said it. And so many times, same way with the Constitutional Convention. He never spoke. He spoke privately all the time and he worked out negotiations and compromises privately all the time. In public his style was such, his decorum was such he could with an eye, with a glance he could silence a person. A famous scene in there one of the few times he spoke was there was a code of version. Nobody could there was no recording of what was happening in the Constitutional Convention because it was believed if the word got out, the pressures would come from the outside. So they were kept secret for two and a half three and a half months while they met which was very tough to do with ben franklin who liked to to talk. They ended up sending guards out with him to the pubs at night so he wouldnt say anything. One time a private draft was left outside and found outside, and fortunately, the sergeant at arms found it and brought it to washington and washington just looked out to the audience. It was actually the delegates from georgia who wrote this down. He said washington looked at us and said this document one of our drafts, has been found outside. It was brought to me. I dont know which of you left it. Whoever left it should come up and get it and never happen again. And he threw it down, and he walked out of the room. And the delegate from georgia wrote, nobody had the tenacity to go up and claim the document. And he himself ran back to his room and said i was never more relieved to find i still had the document in my room that it wasnt my copy. So he could command respect. He did it during the revolutionary war, he did it in the Constitutional Convention, he did it as president. He was a tremendous friend very loyal, but he he had a sense of dignity about him that commanded a situation and commanded men and commanded people. Question . Yeah. Id just like your opinion on given the situation that youve written the book about and the situation that began and during the civil war, who had the more [inaudible] do you think, washington or lincoln . Who had the more difficult job, washington or lincoln . You know, the times helped create the man, and i think with the case of lincoln it was the tremendous challenges he faced. Washington helped create the situation, because washington helped create the union that both by his service in the revolution and after. So they played a somewhat different role. I think it was a very difficult situation for both of them pulling things together and thats one reason why those president s and later fdr who faced the depression in world war ii and world war ii could stand out. Virtually every listing ive ever seen of the top president s in the United States, those are the top three. There were different situations and, you know, i cant put one over the other. Washington created an answer by working with others. Create the constitution and then instigating it. I think that both of them faced challenges. I suppose lincoln in some ways faced the more immediate challenge because he was thrown in the middle of a challenge as opposed to working it from the the beginning. We were fortunate as a country to have those two men at those times. Washington always would attribute it to providence can. Washington deep to providence. Washington deeply believed in god. He deeply believed in god and a great sense of providence and he thought he was called to the revolutionary war and that that was a cause that was a new experience. He believed america was something new under the sun, that thered never been a government of the people. That was a phrase he used government of the people. Lincoln later added by the people and for the people. And there had never been one with like that. There were a few isolated republics like switzerland or something, but no extended republic. It was a new experience. And at that time everything was led by kings and monarchs or military dictatorships or some sort of an aristocracy. As the russians would say, a government of the few, and were a government of the many. And trying to make that work was a novel experience. And thats what inspired him most of all. You can see that in his letters that hes writing to others. He would write who but a britain would believe what is happening to us now . They said this could never work, they said we couldnt have a government of the people. You need a monarch because of the fallen nature of people. And now hes talking in the Confederation Period now we are becoming the laughingstock of europe. Everything they said about us is coming true. We need to show them that this can work. And that sense of urgency that he conveyed in his letters and that he felt and others shared like john jay or the pinckneys or the morrises, that sense is, what that sense we have a purpose. And he believed in this experiment. Because he believed we would be a model, and he would write he said that in his inaugural address and in his letters. People flocked to america because of the type of government we have. And its that sense of what he had and i think lincoln had much the same sense. And it made a lesser president , the south would have gone free because he couldnt have rallied this sense of what america could be. And washington had that. And thats this is the time where it shows more than anything. Next question. There have been many biographies and autobiographies on washington schlesinger and fdr. Jefferson and fdr. In your opinion who has written the best two or three biographies on a president . Autobiography, nobody did it better than grant. I know im in the south and i at least i didnt say sherman. At least i said [laughter] at least i said grant. Grants memoirs are truly a wonderful book. Now, he had help. The story goes he got some ghost writing for mark twain so you couldnt do much better than that. But thats a wonderful book to read even in the south. So id always direct somebody to grants memoirs. As for biographies, there are so many. Theres so many, and they keep coming out. You mentioned flexners multivolume biography of washington. Chernow has a very good volume, the best onevolume if you want to cover the whole of washington. Theres some great books about periods of washington life. Washingtons crossing is a really good book about Washington Crossing the delaware. I hope to do a little bit like that, i hope in my own short way dealing with another period focused periods many washingtons life when im dealing with him is his return his period between his service as president as general and president. When you bring it uptodate you know, i dont think theres a better a historians historian than the current biographies or that are coming out about Lyndon Johnson. He is, you know theres nobody who writes nobody historians love his work because its so detailed. Now, you debt you get a lot about Lyndon Johnson. Caro four volumes out now . Tremendous, tremendous books. Good books about, several about you know, Teddy Roosevelt seems to attract wonderful biographers. Some wonderful books about, about him. So its a little bit who you like. Jackson, some great recent biographies about andrew jackson. So it depends on who youre interested in and what youd like. But i as a historian, id read the new ones coming out about he keeps bringing out one about every five years on Lyndon Johnson. I wouldnt have picked Lyndon Johnson myself, but you can sure learn a lot about the passage of power by reading those books. So those would be a few suggestions. They attract many great biographers, and thatd be a start. Any other questions . Yes. Maybe not exactly on the washington topic but the Constitutional Convention. Yes. One of the things that i find groundbreaking about that is the system of checks and balances. And im just wondering if you know what the philosophical origin toes of that origins of that [inaudible] thats where you get, we asked about checks and balances in our government, and thats where you truly get madison as the architect of the constitution. I think that would be one element. George washington was a great man partly because he was very comfortable in his own skin. He knew who he was. And he trusted orrs, and he list others, and he listened. He didnt think he had always answers. He knew he could do certain things, and other people could do other things. And he would draw on expertise from other people, and i say this because it ties into your question about the checks and balances. Washington probably wouldnt have thought about checks and balances himself. But he was, he was open minded, he would listen. Youd see that in every stake of his life. Youd stage of his life. Youd see he wouldnt just run out into battle. Hed always call a council of his junior aides as well as his senior aides. So young people like hamilton and lafayette could be part of these conferences. Henry lawrence from south carolina. Hed listen to them. Hed listen to the more senior people. And as president it was the same way. He invented the cabinet for that reason. Can you imagine doris kerns goodwin, another great rival, writes about team of rivals. Whatever you want to say about his team of rivals, immaterial doesnt match having jefferson and hamilton in the same cabinet. And then you add henry knox and then you add in randolph from virginia. You talk about a team of rivals pulling them together, because washington would listen to them. He would listen to them and get advice to them. And so theres another thing about the cabinet in the nothing about the cabinet in the constitution, but he invents it because thats the way he was a general. He was also that during the runup to the Constitutional Convention. He would listen to others. And James Madison had asked Thomas Jefferson to find him all the books he could find about constitutionalism, as it were, and send them to him. And James Madison was a bookish sort of person. He was one of the sort of people when he was talking to you was probably looking at his own shoes or maybe in an extroverted moment be looking at your feet when he was talking to you. He was sort offer nerdy and hed sit there and work out things. Brilliant though. He was thinking about checks and balances within the government; that is, between the branches of government as a he called them. It came out during the convention that others like Roger Sherman pushed him to also think about checks and balances between the states and the Central Government which madison didnt initially think of. And washington was sort of slow to pick up on that but he trusted. He trusted his aides and he listened, and he knew he didnt know everything. And he absorbed these ideas. And he only gradually figured out all this, and he picked up on that the idea of checks and balances. And when he receives he encouraged after the constitution was sent out, he encouraged people with he would write to people asking them to write essays about the constitution, to push ratification. And the ratification debates. And among them he asked john jay and Alexander Hamilton and James Madison to write. And they all wrote something called the federalist papers which he thought was the best collection of papers hed ever read on government. And there you could see in his letters back to madison that he finally figured out exactly what madison meant by these balance of powers, because its so nicely explained in the federalist papers. And so with that he adopts, he sort of understands this notion of the balance of powers. But he trusted madison initially enough to run with that. And so thats where this idea of balance of powers between the branches comes from. Now, he had such a strong presidency because we hear we , we know this because of what they wrote because washington had been willing to give up power after the revolution. The british propagandists constantly said why are you revolting, theyd say to the american, to give up one King George King George iii for another one because every reeve pollution their leader revolutionary leader always becomes a tyrant. Look at napoleon. Washington always said hed resign when the war was over. People didnt believe him. He did resign whens it was over. When george iii said if that man resigns, he will be the greatest man in the world, and he did people knew that. Jefferson wrote from france when it happened, he said this act is what sets our revolution apart. So people could trust washington with power because he chose to give it up freely. That was captured a bit in the newburg conspiracy. And so they trusted him with more power. Thats probably why they gave the presidency as much power. No other country has really followed our route. Other countries, they did follow being governments of the people. They tend to be parliamentary deck accurates with the Prime Minister running things democrats with the Prime Minister running things. Madison thought that that would be helpful for preserving individual liberty. And what washington wanted the reason why he thought we needed a constitution was he felt what was a threat was individual liberty, private Property Rights in states like rhode Island Economic prosperity because the country was split into bunch of pieces and political independence itself was a threat. And he wanted a constitution. And he pushed for its ratification on those grounds. We need to protect individual liberty and a big step of that was balance of powers. We need to protect private Property Rights, hence the constitution has its features that prevent states from infringing contracts. This was happening in rhode island and limiting the printing of paper money. We need to have, we need to have a National Market economy that can roll the economy rather than each fighting. So you have the Central Government with complete power over interstate commerce. And, of course, you have a government that can raise taxes and have a military force so they can secure and protect political independence and open the west. Washington always wrote about we need to open the west because that is our frontier. Thats who we are. If we dont have the frontier america would not be america because thats an open valve for people who dont have opportunity in the east to go west and make a name for themselves, make a place for themselves open land and also where easterners can invest. So its those notions. And those were the things he cared about going to the Constitutional Convention. And so many of the things madison wanted that are in the virginia plan never came to be in the constitution. Everything washington set out to have in the constitution, everything was there. So that shows how these ideas and the way he could communicate these ideas and balance of power was an important feature for part of it. Ive probably gone too long. So i thank you very much for coming here. [applause] and its a pleasure to be here. Thank you. [applause] [inaudible conversations] mr. Hoffman was here today courtesy of yerly and norita thorne, and we should thank thank them too enormously for what they did for us. [applause] were going to take a break now and have some lunch. There are several places that you can go, the savannah Coffee Roasters wileys barbecue and chickfila, and theyre in the square. We will be back here at 1 30 this afternoon to hear author dr. Zahn deep jauhar. [inaudible conversations] and that was Edward Larson talking about his newest book on George Washington. Now, mr. Larson has appeared on booktv on several occasions. If youd like to see some of his other appearances, you can go to booktv. Org, type in his name in the search function and you can watch it directly from our video library. Now, the savannah book fest is taking a lunch break at this point, and our live coverage will continue again in about 45 minutes with dr. Sandeep jauhar, doctored the disillusionment of an american physician. Live coverage from savannah continues in about 45 minutes. [inaudible conversations] youre watching book tv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booking Tv Television for serious readers. And youre watching booktv on cspan2, 48 hours of nonfunction books and authors every weekend nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Were on location at Johns Hopkins university in baltimore talking with professors who are also authors and joining us now is Andrew Cherlin. What do you do here at the university . Im a professor of sociology in the school of arts and sciences. Host and what do you teach . Guest i teach courses on the family childrens welfare. Host what does that mean . Guest that means i get to boss around a number of people who have lifetime tenure, and i cant tell them what to do. [laughter] host so we want to talk to you about your book, labors lost love the rise and fall of the working class family in america. How do you define a working class family . Guest its pretty hard. Used to be easy. It was that family where the guy was working in factory or maybe a construction job, the wife staying home maybe working parttime with a couple of kids. That was what the working class was like in the 1950s and 60s at its peak. What ive found is you almost cant define can it these days, because its really kind of fallen apart. Thats the issue here. What weve seen over the last few decades is the decline, the deterioration of a distinctive kind of american family, the family that we used the call blue collar with the guy working, the wife staying home, a couple of kids perhaps having a union job making good pay. That kind of family was very common in the 19 50z, and its fallen apart. I feel like ive watched the slow motion disintegration of it. The reason its fallen apart is, number one because our economy has changed. In all those great factory jobs theyve either moved overseas or disappeared into computer chips. Meanwhile, ideas about marriage and having children have changed so that its more acceptable to live with somebody, have a kid outside of marriage. And what we see today is a generation of young adults, say with a High School Degree but no Fouryear College degree the people who would have taken those working class jobs if we had them we see that generation kind of drifting because the jobs that supported those kinds of families have really gone away. And we see a large number of young adults in this country who seem unconnected, unconnected through jobs unconnected through marriage unconnected through Church Attendance drifting away from the collegeeducated middle class. So i started writing labors love lost because i saw the decline of a way of life that had its problems but which worked for some people. Host is there a solution to what you call the drift today . Guest yes. I think there is a solution, but its hard. S it is to im it is to improve the educational qualifications of people who might take the middlelevel jobs that are available. Let me try that again. If youre a high school graduate, you used to have lots of options. Here in baltimore there used to be a steel plant that employed 30,000 people. Paid good wages. Last year that plant was sold for spare parts and scrap metal. You dont have those options anymore. But there still are some jobs that you can get without a Fouryear College degree. Not as many. Medical technician jobs, jobs that require some kind of computer skills. Those jobs do exist still, and what we need to do is get people to the point where they can take them. So what we need to do is work on education, first of all, but not necessarily a Fouryear College degree for everybody. Maybe what we need is to work on Community Colleges to improve the kind of education we give to people who might take a good midlevel job with decent pay if they could get the training. Maybe, maybe we need to improve apprenticeship programs, do innovative kinds of educational work thatll help people without College Degrees get what jobs are left. Thats the first thing we have to do. But i dont think thats going to be enough. I think in addition we have to work on what we call the institutions of work. Things like unions like wage laws. I think we have to directly attack the ways in which we organize workers and pay them. I think we ought to have an increase in the minimum wage. I think we ought to do something to try to strengthen unions. Because those kinds of efforts really cause the middle group to have a decent income 40 or 50 years ago, and theyre not there today. Professor cherlin walk us through what baltimore was like in the 1950s and perhaps what baltimores like today and how that relates to labors lost love. Guest baltimore had whats called the Sparrows Point steel works about 7 miles east of here that started in the late 1800s. By about 1960 it was one of the largest steel mills in the world. Maybe 30,000 people. It hired whites, it also hired blacks. They didnt get the jobs as good as the whites did but they were hired. It was a big source of employment. Baltimore had a Gm Assembly Plant that had several thousand employees. Those members the employment levels of those kinds of big plants went down very sharply after the 1960s. Starting in the 1970s when our economy started to transform, those jobs went elsewhere as steel was produced elsewhere, as we bought foreign cars. And little by little theyve been eroded. So today those jobs dont exist. The steel plant is closed, and in addition the General Motors plant is closed. We have some good news in baltimore, coming in in the parking lot where the gm plant used to be is a big amazon. Com distributership. Its going to have 800 jobs. Thats terrific. But those jobs are going to pay maybe half maybe a third of what the unionized jobs at the General Motors plant paid. So were replacing jobs but not with the kinds of benefits and pay that can support a family easily. So whats happened in baltimore is that the old time factory jobs have been drying up just as they have elsewhere in the country. And theyre either not here or highly mechanized with one worker operating a machine. Instead were the newer economy the amazon. Com economy. The economy where youre making less money perhaps not even working 40 hours a week, trying to make it in a way thats very much more difficult than it used to be. So its not that there are more jobs in baltimore anymore but the kinds of good factory jobs that were unionized ask can pay a lot of and pay a lot of money, those really are largely gone in baltimore and in lots of other cities around the nation. Host i just want to point out i got my ls mixed up, labors love lost, not lost love. I apologize for that. Isnt change inevitable when it comes to economic matters or Community Matters like that . Guest sure, change is inevitable. We cant go back to the factory era. Were never going to get those jobs back, and you can argue that we shouldnt. We need to produce things more efficiently than we used to. But what do you do then with the large group of people who used to take those jobs and for whom that used to support family life . Im not nostalgic for the 19 50z. The 19350s family had its problem. It was very restrictive for what women could do, for example. I dont want to return to the 1950s, but the problem im writing about in my book is the decline of this kind of working class family has left with nothing stable in its place. We dont have a new way for people to live the kind of lives they used to do. So sure, lets go off into the future, lets not try to go back into the past. But as we do that, how do we build in, integrate in young adults who dont seem to be able to fit the way they used to . Thats the problem for us. And unless we can solve that problem, were going to have a lot of people who just cant make it the way wed like to and just cant be connected up with the collegeeducated middle class the way wed like them to be. Host has this generation of unconnected young adults, as you say, created other issues that we need to address . Guest heres what this generations doing, they dont get married as much as they used to because they dont think they have the economic basis to do it. But what they will do now is live with a partner. Because thats more acceptable than it was, say, 50 years ago. And what theyll do now is go ahead and have kids in those partnerships. So we have high schooleducated young adults living with each other and going ahead and having children without marrying just as were used to seeing among the poorest of the poor. Those relationships dont last very long. Whats replaced the working class family is temporary, shortterm relationships often with kids that last for a couple of years, then they break up, they start new relationships maybe have another kid with another partner and build very complex families. The reason im concerned about that is i think the instability of those families the fact that kids are seeing parents and parents partners move in and out of their households arent good for them. If this were france or scandinavia, i wouldnt be so concerned because in those European Countries there are longterm, cohabiting relationships that last for decades. And that function just as we might think marriages would function. But we dont do that in the u. S. As yet. We have the shortest duration of living together relationships. So ive seen a huge growth in the last few decades of cohabiting relationships with kids among the High School Degree population. Thats new. We didnt used to see that several decades ago. And im concerned about it because of the extreme amount of instability and churning and turbulence in the lives of those adults, and perhaps even more important, in the lives of their kids. Because its the kids, we really have a social and public concern about them. Host has this new generation has it contributed to a perception that were becoming a have and a havenot society more so than a working class, when we had a working Class Population . Guest yes. I think a Fouryear College degree is the closest thing we have to a social class boundary in this country. Certainly from the standpoint of family life, it is. Theres an enormous difference now between the way collegeeducated population lives its family life and everybody else. What the collegeeducated population does is the husband and the wife join two incomes make a Firm Foundation for a marriage and wait until after theyre married to have kids. They can do that because the collegeeducated people are the winners in our new economy. Theyre the ones who can still get decent jobs. Theyre pooling two incomes, and theyre confident they can have a future together. They get married, they may live together first but theyll wait until after theyre married to have kids. They almost look kind of traditional. The wife works outside the home, thats not traditional. They may live together but we recognize that kind of family. For everybody else that is, people without a bachelors degree were seeing an increasing number of shortterm relationships, most of them nonmarital relationships with kids creating a very different kind of family life. It used to be 50 or 60 years ago that most everybody was married including poor people and rich people. Now its largely rich people. Professional and managerial workers in this country are about twice as likely to be married as somebody with a lowrevel job lowlevel job. Thats a very big difference and its happened in the last few decades, and its connected up with what i call the decline of the working class family because the middle of that distribution, the middle group has seen their job base disappear as industrialization has faded into deindustrialization. Host are we finding working Class Populations growing in other countries, perhaps in china . Guest yes, we certainly are seeing it in other countries. Were seeing it happen in europe too. Many of those countries provide more family assistance than ours do. So the single mom here who has a job and needs to take off some time when she might be having a kid or when a child is sick, in most other countries in the world would get paid family leave. Not here in the u. S. In many countries theres much more support for people at the bottom than there is here. So while we see lots of working Class Populations emerging in other countries, what we see is that they have more support than people do in this country. We kind of let people sink or swim here. And most of us swim most of the time, but not all. And im seeing a growing number of the socalled working class sink rather than swim. Host besides education whats another policy that you would like to see implemented . Guest i would like to see an increase in the minimum wage. Now, im not an economist so ive been asking all the economists i know is this, could we do this . Clearly, if you raised the minimum wage to 50 an hour youre just going to ill kill jobs. Could you raise it from what it is now . And the answer that i hear and that i trust the most is you could raise the minimum wage several dollars an hour at least without hurting the job picture because the minimum wage is worse worth, im sorry, a lot less than it used to be. Counting inflation the minimum wage used to buy you more goods and services 20 or 30 years ago than it does now. It is an interesting program. I did like to see it extended to thats cannot living with their children so they have an incentive to work, employers have incentive to hire and them. You have more childsupport paid and more families working together. This is something to help this population of little but it is really hard, very difficult because the factory jobs we saw in baltimore are not coming back. Labors love lost, the rise and fall of the workingclass family in america, Andrew Cherlin is the author, here is the cover. Booktv is live today from savannah, george at their annual book festival. Live coverage will continue shortly. [inaudible conversations] heres a look at the upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country. On march 14th and fifteenth booktv will be at the university of arizona with live coverage of the seventh annual tucson festival of books. The following week the va festival of the book will be held in charlottesville, virginia and march 25th through 29 the city of new orleans will host the Tennessee Williams Literary Festival and the los Angeles Times festival of books will take place on the eighteenth and nineteenth of april. It will also air live on booktv. Let us know about book fairs and festivals in new area and we will be happy to add them to our list email us at booktv cspan. Org. Booktv is on location at Johns Hopkins university in baltimore, maryland where we will be talking with professors who are authors. Joining us is a professor of the history of medicine at Johns Hopkins and daniel to notice tois tois. To deity to and why is it important . Here at hopkins to be able to teach it to an undergraduate two wonderful groups of graduate students and and medical students why is it important . I think it is important because science and medicine are so important in our culture today and science and medicine and other products of human beings and human activities so if we understand science and medicine and how it has really produced real human beings, not textbook definition of scientific medicine we ended stand the product and may understand the things it can do for us and has been frailties so it is an opportunity to reflect on the nature of this important part of our culture. Area from the history background or medical background . Come from a history background. In fact as high school and College Student i shied away from science a bit. I came to the history of science and medicine because i was interested in the question how do humans being make up their opinions, how did they come to opinions on things . So i studied the history of ideas, a little psychology a little sociology and came to the history of science because they deal with how far they make up their minds about things nature is infinitely complicated, two different scientists looking at nature, different kinds and places looking at different ways depending on what their values or investment for philosophies, so draw a very different conclusions about it. I found the process really fascinating for 40 years. Host daniel todes, we invite you to talk about this book ivan pavlov a russian life in science. Was ivan pavlov . He was a great scientist. He was a fascinating and and a man who lived a long and rich wife for almost a century was born in 1849 in a provincial city, before the serfs were in anticipated and he died in stalins russia in 1936. One thing he was not was a man who taught a dog to salivate. That is just what myth. And american myth largely. Host how did that come about . The first line in your book is contrary to legend, ivan pavlov never trained a dog to salivate to the sound of a bell, everyone who hears his name watching this interview said pavlovs dog. Where did that come from . The short answer is that it came from the usual condemnation of structure and contingency in American Life in our history. The contingency was it was as simple missed translation problem for instance. The russian word was mistranslated as dog and was picked up and popularized. When we talk further about have laws work, you will see i could have used the dog but the structure part, the historical part is when pavlov was doing his work, all the rage in western psychology was behavior behavior rests believed people like john watson who got his start, the behaviorists believe that to be a science, psychology for joy should forget the inner world because it couldnt be studied objectively and instead should just focus on one visible thing like behavior is. They interpreted pavlov in their image. For them what was important was the physiologist talking about conditioning, had provided supposedly the physiological basis for mechanistic acting out of behaviors but pavlov was not behaviorist. He was a russian who was deeply steeped in russian culture as a young man he worried about the problems of human morality. He read dostoevskys brothers of and was seeking russian discussions about human morality, human morality and what science could do about it. So actually what he was trying to do was come as he put it, is to study the psyche to understand our consciousness and its torment exactly the inner life that the behavior rests were paying no attention to. Back to the dog as pavlov was the first to admit, many people before him had noticed that for instance a dog will salivate when a person that usually feeds it walks into the room, let alone that it could be trained to celebrate to certain things and if you think about it, why would a talented scientists need for 30 years, three labs and scores of coworkers to do something you and i could probably do in an afternoon or so. Pavlov realized he never called any credit for that realization. The conditional reflects, ms. Translation is not conditioned, it is conditional and it is important to understand what he was doing. It wasnt just a phenomenon, it was not met that. What he meant to do, a three step method to do what one russian characterized this way, to use saliva drops and logic to understand the inner life of the dog and the human being so what did he do . We can start with not a bell but a buzzer. After a while, the dog is going to salivate. Everybody knew that. That is the beginning, then tens of thousands of different experiments playing to with the interval between buzzer and speeding and to a metronome, tens of thousands of experiments using the dogs pattern of salivation as low window is the dog expecting to be fed or not is the simplest sort of beginning with the simplest experiment so we do those tens of thousands of experiments generate all this data. The second step is try to imagine the processes in the brain that would lead to patterns like that so this conceptual nervous system, excitation, irradiation, concentration across the brain, and developed a certain number of processes to explain those patterns and also that he uses that consensual and nervousness to understand the aspect and emotions and personalities on dogs and humans. One dog characterized as a Freedom Fighter because he didnt want to be confined in the stand so how could he explain that based on this conceptual nervous system, why are there different types of human personality . Wide to people he fought like many people in his time, the english, the germans, russians had different personalities so that was his goal, to understand our psyche, our consciousness and maybe, just maybe, he thought, in the end, to give human beings the capacity to control themselves a little bit and improve society. Host was the wellknown in his time . Guest yes. Host celebrity . Guest yes. You, was certainly a celebrity and that was an important part of his life. I should mention success didnt come easily to him. He was supposed to be a priest five generations of his family had been in the clergy but in the 1860s when he was a teenager science was all the rage in russia, russia was modernizing so he abandoned his fathers plan for him they never had good relations afterwards. To leave the seminary go to the shining city of st. Petersburg the center of Russian Science comment and there he was a terrific student, he found a great teacher who taught him his basic style, physiology. Pavlov felt he was that, but he was chased out of the university by student demonstrators so he found himself without a mentor, without a patron and there were 15 long years in the wilderness. He got his first job at age 41, a chance circumstance and in the 1890s he did his work on digestion where he tried to analyze the digestive system, as the factory, here again why a factory . Factories were springing up, russia was having its Industrial Revolution and so often scientists draw their conceptual framework from the world around them so he wanted to look at the digestive system as something that produce precisely the amount and quality of secretion to digest nt won and nobel prize for that in 1904. The wild card is he realized that in fact two different dogs gave him the same amount of the same food would secrete different amounts for instance of gastric juice, different personality, from the psyche, was the ghost in his digestive machine. He decided shortly about the time he got his nobel prize for his digestive work, that he would take the psyche itself. So 1904, russias only Nobel Prize Winner and that ended up having really important significance through his life because 1917 of course bolsheviks seizure of power, his politics were very interesting. Before the revolution his basic politics which becomes important for understanding is evolving view was the system of government doesnt matter that much. What is going to matter is science. As science develops will symbolize all of us, rationalize and humanize mankind so whatever was good for science, pavlov was happy with. Under the czars, it was also a gradual, always against any kind of revolution. These ares didnt support science very generously and pavlov didnt like that but he was against any kind of revolution before 1917. He was hoping russia would evolve into unconstitutional on our feet. He was against the democratic revolution in february of 1917, and and horrified by the bolshevik too, that over through that sort of left liberal government in october. So when the bolsheviks took power reconsidered and the grading seriously especially since all of his friends and colleagues either died or emigrated, 30 years of civil war, 1918 and 1919, there was nothing to eat dogs died of starvation. He love russia and wanted to stay there and his western colleagues one of the things that surprise me in the research, they wanted to help him, sent him food and money he was a 68yearold man whose nobel prize occurred a couple decades ago, they knew little about his conditional reflects, so they did not want him to come to the west. Linen on the either hand decided that okay, this guy, he is criticizing us right and left and he did in public at the very beginning. But he is russias only Nobel Prize Winner. Host to that protect him from prison . Just the point. He is russias only Nobel Prize Winner, he is internationally welcomed and connected and is of materialists developing a world view that when the bolsheviks fell, supported their own views although there were important differences between pavlovs brand of materialism and dialectical materialism, so exactly so for the bolsheviks idea of building socialism they needed science and technology and productive forces. He has propaganda value and when and after the civil war ends, doesnt want all the russian scientists, pavlov rights in the letter saying basically i want permission to decide if i want to leave and it is my right to be if whatever you say and russian scientists dying and you better do something about it. Been in decided he was right and at the same time his colleague said he was a wash tub old man went gave him Carte Blanche and the soviets gave them Carte Blanche for the next two decades, gave him everything he wanted in his lab offered all sorts of special privileges which he intended to turn down except when he was late in life accepted the fort lincoln to drive him around, between his three different labs so playing this game pavlov and the bolsheviks, it is an interesting one. The bolsheviks he is a reactionary a famous scientist who objectively is developing good science and helping them in russia. For pavlov the bolsheviks are barbarians, criminals he denounces his suppression of religion, terror, and also as heat put it in 1926 in france and they understand science. Science under the bolsheviks, and believed the way the government didnt. That included huge things for pavlov including the village they built for him and outside leningrad. Toward the end of his life, the bolsheviks became a little more complicated. Keane never ceased criticizing the terror, save people from the gulag, wrote letters and gave public speeches denouncing the terror and suppression of religion. Somebody by his lab to encourage his lab. Kicked the dog down the steps and out of the building. On the other hand italy protect you so much. Guest under stalin times. On the other hand he saw science developing. In 1933 it there comes to power as he did under the czars. Against the fascist threat. At the end of his life my wonderful experiences was finding the last two manuscripts he was working on when he died and never finished them. Science and religion christianity and communists and basically this is part of what is an essay, corresponding with stalins right hand man trying to convince him to end suppression of religion. Pavlov by this time is an atheist but is defending the local church, giving them money under the table because the bolsheviks are trying to tax them to death. The clergy are removed, he sensed a crate of oranges but he tells the bolsheviks, basically for all your crimes and blunders there is something you have in common with christianity which is this belief in the quality. He says instead of suppressing christians you should celebrate because jesus was the first communist on earth, he said. Host you say there, where did you do your research on ivan pavlov . Where did i do my research . This is another story about contingency and block. When i finished my first book and decided to try to write this biography it was gorbachev time and the archives were opening up in russia and so i got injured in russia thanks to grants from National Endowment of humanities and a full year 199091, just as the archives were opening up, friendly relations between the United States and russia pavlovs main personal papers since he was elected at the academy of science, in the academy of science, archive in st. Petersburg, i got there and i couldnt believe it. It turned out some soviet historians had been able to look at some of it but not to publish because the archives showed him to be a much more complicated man than the icon that had grown up around him in the soviet union. It was impossible to use these materials to write a biography until gorbachevs time. Host what is ivan pavlovs lasting contribution to science . Guest the questions that he was addressing a i still very much under debate by scientists today. What i call in the book pavlovs quest to understand the subjective emotional intellectual life of human beings, simply by reflexes and nervous, very problematic. That is where the solution lies. Others dont. Today, pavlov watched saliva drought and trying to reason into the inner life and you and i can look at the oxygenation of morons when they have ir and our eye when a person experiences love it is very striking because you see is that movement. Right before the monday reaches but what is the relationship between the two . His methods the use of the conditional reflectses to analyze and treat such things as depression or drug addiction or certainly showcasing a lot of important life a lot of important light on us as organisms. But his overall quest, the quest to understand human consciousness, its relationship to bodily processes, what i found most inspiring about him was not just the amazing science he did but at age 86, of few weeks before he died, that second manuscript i mentioned, he was changing his mind on a bunch of important things so for me, have law is not model for a thinking individuals at however he was always a certain in public but in private he had his doubts. He was alive intellectually to the end and that is something scientists or historians can learn a lot from. Host here is the cover of the boat, ivan pavlov a russian life in science. On top and professor daniel todes is author, publisher of Oxford University press. You are watching booktv on cspan2. A look at the current bestselling nonfiction books according to the New York Times. Author and medical doctor Sandeep Jauhar starts now on booktv. We are live from the eighth annual book festival in georgia. His new book is called doctored the disillusionment of an american physician. If i said anything you forgot. I am delighted to welcome you to the eighth annual medical festival, and 2015, Georgia Power involved in we are blessed once again to host such a celebrated authors as United Methodist church, a beautiful historic venue made possible by the generosity of the International Paper foundation the Savannah Morning News and the savannah magazine and we would also like to thank cspan for coming to the festival and filming live here today so you might be on tv. We have a Dynamic Office again this year. In order to keep this festival free and open to the public we depend on our sponsors and individual donors. If you would like to lend your support to the book festival we welcome your donations and have provided yellow book buckets at the door. Before we get started i have a couple housekeeping notes, please take a moment to turn off your cellphone. We also ask that you do not use flash photography and it is important for the question and answer portion that you line up down the center aisle and come to the microphone to ask your questions because otherwise you will not be heard you will not be heard on tv so please come to the front and the ushers will help you to the microphone. If you are planning to attend the closing address please remember it is tomorrow, the correct time for the presentation is 3 00 at the trustees the air. Immediately following this presentation, Sandeep Jauhar will sign copies of his book but now we welcome dr. Sandeep jauhar who is here through the generosity of the marshes of skidaway. When Sandeep Jauhar went into medicine he experienced a gradual and deepening disillusionment as he confronted the hard questions about human side of modern medicine. He has reached surprising conclusions currently he is director of the Heart Failure program at Long Island Jewish Medical Center and writes regularly for the New York Times. In an acclaimed memoir, he chronicled the harrowing years of his residency at the new york City Hospital doctored his recent memoir and a focus of his talk is a followup that presents the crisis of american medicine through the life of an attending cardiologists. Sandeep jauhar writes about sobering medical truths such as doctorss lower more out getting lower. Naked cruelty is in determining patient referrals, industry partnerships distorting medical decisions and unnecessary tests being routinely formed in order to generate income. Provoked by his unsettling experience is Sandeep Jauhar has written an introspective memoir and an impassioned plea for reform. Doctored the disillusionment of an american physician is the important work of a wider unafraid of challenging the establishment, admitting fault and inciting controversy and we are delighted to welcome dr. Sandeep jauhar. [applause] thank you so much for that generous introduction. I want to say what a pleasure it has been for me to be here this weekend. I brought my family. My children are actually now probably connoisseurs of georgia book festival because we were at the decatur festival in august but they have given so that not a big thumbsup as have i. And i also very quickly want to acknowledge the organizers specifically robyn goals and linda you are so helpful in bringing us here and our wonderful host beth logan, the paragon of southern hospitality. When robyn invited me to come here, she gave me some parameters for this talk and she said talk mostly about yourself and what motivates you to get into writing and i fought as a writer of two memoirs how am i going to do that . How am i going to talk about myself . I will do the best i can. I was in the lobby of brice before coming here wonderful hotel and was chatting with one of the authors, what you going to talk about . Im not sure. I will just go up there and be spontaneous. I will try to do that too. I dont know exactly where this is going to go but hopefully it will be enlightening. Me start by telling you about myself. I was born in india. Our family was pretty itinerant when i was growing up. My father was a plant geneticist so we found ourselves moving around quite a bit because he ended up going to places that focused on crop science. We spent some time in wales and then we moved back to india in 2007 and i spent a year there and for those of you who know a little bit about modern indian history, it was 1976 the year of the emergency rule a tough time for academics and there were a lot of restrictions on free speech. My father decided we have to get out of here so we ended up emigrating to the United States in 1977 and eventually ended up settling in setting california and that is where i grew up. Like i said my father was a plant geneticist. My mother was of biochemist who worked part time but mostly was of homemaker and she spent time raising s and they wanted me to become a doctor. In that generation especially among immigrant indians there was nothing more noble and better that you could do. Sort of coloring their vision was the fact that they had come with no money, Financial Insecurity and they thought this will going into medicine will confer stability on our children and allow them to do good for the worlds. I didnt buy into that when i was growing up. I have a lot of other interests besides science. I remember when i was growing up in india i would spend time with my grandfather a family practitioner in new delhi and i would watch him work and what he did was find. It was reasonably interesting but it didnt appeal to me deeply. Might 10yearold minds thought this is kind of cook book and i dont want to pursue medicine and i didnt see how medicine was going to allow me to develop my creative impulse and i was wrong about that actually but at the time so i was interested in a lot of Different Things so my mother would sort of pushed me to become a doctor. One reason she would say, the, doctors of people will stand when you walk into the room. It didnt work out that way. In the end i ended up going to berkeley. I was very interested in the mysteries of the universe so i decided to become of physicists. In immigrant indian culture, rebellion is saying no to a career in medicine and going into physics. I was really the rebel. So i went to berkeley and studied physics and graduated from undergrad and decided i was going to continue with physics. I wasnt sure what i wanted to do, but to go to graduate school and studied a very esoteric object called a quantum dots and i can talk to you about it afterwards. Of very interesting entities that is sort of like an artificial adam. I became a writer. Studying quantum dots, this was so far removed from what i am doing today, what ended up happening, there was a confluence of things. Any of you who have done research especially graduate Level Research know that it is very slow and i found myself struggling with the equipment, broken vacuum pumps. So the progress was incremental at best and right around that time someone who was very dear to made developed a severe case of lucas and in an effort to help her eyes ended up going to support Group Meetings and talking to doctors and gradually got more interested in medicine as a way to help her but also was fascinating to me how much was uncharted. How little was known about lupus or chronic disease in general and being a physicist, i had this idea that if i dug deeply enough i could figure things out for her and it became very clear is that medicine really is a science of incredible uncertainty and is largely uncharted and that was appealing to the scientist in meade but the biggest appeal, i started to see medicine as away to help people. Sounds naive, but it was the biggest motivating factor for me was at the time when i was sort of toward the end graduate school i desperately wanted out of the ivory tower. I wanted to be with people. I wanted to interact with my fellow human beings and i remember my brother, who is a doctor he is a cardiologist, in a residency at the time, he visited me once and sort of walked around my lab. I showed him the laser and all the cool stuff i was doing and he looked at me and said this is such an ivory tower and i remember thinking, you know, it was the worst thing you could say to me at that moment because it really stimulated me to make a big change. I ended up finishing my ph. D. And applied to medical school. I firmly believe in serendipity. I have always been interested in writing, but had no opportunities to write and other than scientific writing. So after i applied to medical school and had gotten in i was walking in the Physics Department one day and i saw a poster for a science journalism fellowship and sort of 5 when i was in high school, i like to writing and i should do something and i sort of had the summer off before i was going to go to medical school so i applied on a lark to the science fellowships and to my utter amazement ended up getting it and i went to Time Magazine for the summer before i went to medical school and time was an amazing experience for me because i have always been interested in politics and it was just it was it seemed so glamorous. I went there and first week i was there they sent me to the u. S. Capitol to get up quote from bob dole about the working poor. I had never interviewed anyone and i was a physicist. What did i know about it . So i applied my physics acumen, how am i going to all these reporters in the New York Times, cnn they are trying to he was majority leader at the time, trying to get to him so how am i going to work my way in . I figured you know what . I will hang out by the bathroom because i knew he had a prostate condition and he was going to end up in the bathroom at some point. So the land the holds i was just hanging out by myself and he walked in. And i was so nervous i looked at him tall man and i said a bunch of gibberish i am sure it was gibberish and he sort of looked at me and kept walking, completely ignored me so after he came out, done with his speeches and so on, i was talking to his press secretary and trying to get him to get me five minutes to get my quote so people at Time Magazine dont think i am a total loser and so the press secretary was in the process of blowing me off and bob dole walks up and i will never forget this. He said this is Sandeep Jauhar. He is an intern at Time Magazine and he wants to quote from the about americas working for. Setup the five minute phone conversation. This is what he gleaned from what i was sure was a bunch of nervous gibberish because so really admire the man. And i end up speaking to him the next day and got my quote and so i got bitten by the writing bug that day that week. So when i finished at that Time Magazine, it was the end of the summer and i was supposed to go to st. Louis, to Start Medical School so i went and talked to the bureau chief of Time Magazine, a guy named dan goodgame. I really like writing and maybe i should become a writer, work at time and he is like go to medical school. You dont want to end up and being stained wretch like me. Give me some names of people i can call in the future if i want to try to write about missing . He said sure. Gave me the name of someone, half a trillion, miami herald, but what about the New York Times . All right, sure. Gave me the name of one of the top editors so i went to st. Louis. The first few weeks were tough going from Time Magazine to the anatomy lab and memorizing muscles and nerves. One day i decided to call up this guy at Time Magazine and i really believe that such an Important Role for serendipity in our lives. I ended up calling this fellow gerald a bullet, and he has since passed on, but he was the National Political editor at the time and i didnt know it but he was i believe he was the panelist who asked Michael Dukakis what he would do if his wife were raped and murdered . So he had tremendous influence on the 1988 political president ial election. I didnt notice this at the time. I called him up and was in the process of speaking to someone and suddenly he gets on the phone and i said look gerald boyd what do you want . I was sort of telling him i was a medical student and then it turned out he was from st. Louis. Not just that he was from st. Louis but he actually had lived on the same streets i was currently living on, kings highway. So he started asking me where do you live . You are in medical school and at the end of the conversation he said next time you are in new york give me a call and we will have coffee. I said that is wonderful so i did what any aspiring writer would do up the phone, called American Airlines and book the flight to new york. Is then i called his assistant and i said i am coming to new york and mr. Boyd wants to meet with me. And who are you . So anyway i went to new york, they showed me into his office and i am looking around and there are pictures of him with george bush and the premier of china. At that point i was thinking all right, maybe you dont really know what you are doing. So he walks in and his tone had totally changed from the conversation lisa i have two minutes what do you want . So i started telling him that i wasnt in medical school but really wanted to be a writer and could i write for the New York Times . And he said show me your stuff. I said i dont really have any stuff. I tried to explain how at Time Magazine you dont get stuff. You just get quotes. He looked at me like i was totally crazy but he did do an amazing thing for me. He called in elizabeth rosenthal. She is a doctor and some of you must have read her pay until it hurts series for which i hope she gets the pulitzer but she came in and she said she went to harvard medical school. She was working as a journalist full time but doing a Little Medicine on the side. She said this isnt how you do things. Go back to medical school and see if you can write for the local paper tried to get a portfolio and then send me your stuff. I went back and ended up going to the st. Louis postdispatch and i met a fellow there a very good guy an editor named john curley who had grown up in manhattan and he had taken a liking to me and admired my gumption in coming and asking for an internship and in the end offered me an internship and then faced with this decision, how to i do an internship at the st. Louis postdispatch while i am in medical school . I called my brother and said i have an opportunity, i kind of want to do it but they are going to keep track. I cant be away from medical school for large amounts of time and he said you know what . There are many hours in the day. Remembered that and i thought i am going to go with this. I went to the st. Louis postdispatch and they started giving me stories. I would drive out there after morning classes, skip the afternoon and read the transcription and show up at 1 00, my editor there would say you know what . We want you to write there are a lot of people getting stung by wasps. We want you to write a piece about people getting stung by wasps and you have until 5 00. It would just be like okay, and it was trial by fire and i did a few featured pieces as well, one on diabetes and i did a profile of a surgeon and i would send my stuff to the New York Times to libya and she would read it and sometimes she would respond and sometimes she wouldnt and i had a little portfolio and the next step in serendipity was when i finished mid school i ended up getting an internship in new york and at New York Hospital so i called libby and the science section of the New York Times had a new editor. A woman named cornelius been. When new people come in they want to mix things up and bring in their own people. So i was one of her people. She took a liking to me and i pitched an article about a leprosy hospital in carville, louisiana. She said sure. We will send a photographer down. Go down and do the story so i went to cargill and stayed two or three days and wrote this piece and it came out about three days after i started my internship and two days before i met my wife, sonya. It was an eventful week. And corey dean would say why dont you write about your internship . I said okay. It turned out to be a great indication, because in an internship everything is new. As you go on in medicine you get jaded. You see things and you start questioning but when you are and in turn everything is new is rubles a year end up with i dont give a hoot what i write. I am going to write about what i see and the things that interest me and the things i am going to question. I remember one of my early pieces as an intern, there was a fellow in hospital and who was having difficulty swallowing and when he would swallow food would go into his lungs. Everyone was getting ready to put in the feeding tube into his stomach. The thing was he kept saying i dont want the feeding tube but no one was listening to him. I was on the team and whenever i would bring it up people would say what i you saying . What is the alternative . The alternative to me was listen to what he is saying, let him eat edit he dies of desperation pneumonia, that is the way he wants to live. But because it was such an egregiously crazy choice, who wants to die, people declared without capacity. You cant make your decision. They are getting ready to put in the feeding tube. It was so bothersome to meet at i remember one morning i went to his room and i said they are going to go for your feeding tube today and he said i dont want it. I said you know what . And i went to the refrigerator and brought out some thin liquids. I said here. Drink this. He hadnt drunk anything in over a week, maybe two, and so he drank it and maybe he coughed a little bit, he drank it and i said i documented his charge, did my own swallowing study and he can swallow. He doesnt need to a feeding tube. I called the surgeon and just called it off. Those are the things you need to experience when you are naive because now today, honestly if i were walking through the ward and i saw a guy like that who couldnt swallow and was getting ready to get a feeding tube i would probably just let him get it because i wouldnt be invested. When you are an interim you are investing your patients in a way that you arent, you dont know them as well as you move on. And that is unfortunate but it is the reality. Those are the things i started to write about, things that interested me. Things that seemed ethically or dubious and so by the time i was done with my residency i had 15 or 20 pieces in the New York Times. By then believe it or not i had a book agent who said you should write a book. I said oh sure. I just wanted to have an agent. I thought was cool to have an agent. At the end of my residency i said look why dont we just take my pieces and staple them together and call it a book . We pitched that idea which didnt go over very well. The editor, of my publisher said we dont really like your idea but we have an idea. Why dont you write about your residency, a memoir of development, novel of education . That is what i ended up doing and got turned into my first book which is called in turn. End there are a lot of pieces i published as the president but a lot of stuff i didnt publish. One thing corry told me was the diary and write down the stuff that is interesting to you. So i did and i thought it was so important. When young doctors and aspiring writers asked me how do you get started . I say you have to record your reflections. I had been in school for 19 years. 19 years after graduating from high school. I had that quantum dot detour. So i was just ready to be done, and reap some rewards for all that all those sleepless nights and what i found was that doctors were very unhappy, and when youre in training, the focus is on the physiology and learning about the heart. Its not really about the culture of practice. So i was largely blinded to that. And then i took on my first role and im talking to doctors and i find theyre very unhappy with medical practice today. And it wasnt just about the stresses we all know. It upabout the paperwork and the malpractice fears and so on. It was a deeper problem. There was a what i started to think of as an existential crisis. It was more that doctors felt they werent being able to Practice Medicine the way they were trained to practice the way they aspired to practice and that cass deeply troubling to them. And so i sort of watched this and learned a little bit. I was fairly happy. I was an academic practice. And working with trainees and i specifically chose an academic practice because i wanted to teach i wanted to be around young people and rather than and people who had that naivete that i had, that i wanted to hold on to, and but shortly after i started in my practice i found myself with a significant amount of debt and feeling i had to moonlight so make ends meet. Started a new family. And most folks will be surprise it that a lot of academic physician does that. They moonlight on the side. One reason we choose academia is we want to be around academics we want to be around young physicians, we want to teach, but the Salary Structure is very different, and in then medicine today youre rewarded for doing as much as possible. The fee for service model, do more more, more. And one of the reasons why i chose academic met sin, diwant to be in that position where i had to do more and more and more. But then i found i had to start moonlighting and i found a practice in queens, with a cardiology friend of my brother, who offered me this gig going doing stress tests and supervising stress tests on the weekends. And this is where i really learned about how medicine is practiced in some parts of this country. Now, most doctors are good. But theres no question that there is a subset in my profession that has taken advantage of the fee for Service System and its not you can call it whatever you want. Some doctors will get upset by the implication theres fraud going on. Lets not call it fraud. Lets say the system creates moral hazards that encourages doctors to respond to financial incentives and this is happening, okay . When i was a resident when i learned about Health Care Economics there was an example of an Orthopedic Group that under the fee for Service System was doing 200 to 300 total hip replacements for a year. When they went to a bundled model, that number dropped from 200 to 300 i dont remember the exact number to one. One total hip replacement. You cant tell me doctors dont respond to financial instance senttives. We do. Doctors are just us a human as anyone. And so im working in this practice and it was a mill. There were literally this line of unsuspecting patients getting ready to have stress tests, many of which were honestly unnecessary. And the more i worked there the dirtier i felt. I felt really dirty that i had to do this. But i felt like i had no options at that point with the financial situation i was in, and so that precipitated a real crisis in me. It was a maybe it was a midlife crisis. I dont know. But it took a toll on me, took a toll on my relationship with my family and the book is about what i call the midlife crisis of american met din, and also about my own personal crisis, and how i worked my way out of it. And eventually i did. But i was able to reininvestigate rate my personal relationships and im in a much better place today than i was about six seven years ago. Howhowever, american medicine is still in a crisis. What are re going to do about american medicine . Theres no simple solution unfortunately. I think that the fee for Service System does create a lot of problems that eventually, i believe, will need to be addressed and the system will need to be supplanted by Something Else. I dont know exactly what that system will look like. But its going to happen. Its happening. Anytime you have a huge system that is responsible for one out of every six dollars we spend, and its so dysfunctional then its going to get to a tipping point, and i believe its at that point because you cant have a system that is so gargantuan that affects all of our lives and have no one be happy with it. I mean doctors are unhappy but most importantly, patients are unhappy. You ask any patient. Patients are mart. They know when theyre getting the short shrift. They know when theyre doctor isnt listening to them. They often times suspect theyre being asked to undergo unnecessary tests. They know whats going on. They know they cant find a primary care physician today, or if they do they have to wait three months to get an appointment in some parts of the country. So theres a lot of dysfunctionallity in the system. It will change. Now, for doctors i think that we have to reclaim what is important to us. The system is in a state where insurance companies, the government, are in many ways telling us how to practice and a lot of doctors feel almost like pawns in this system, and when i graduated from medical school the graduation speaker had some wise words. He said know what is important to you. The ideals you hold near and dear and stick to them. So i think those words apply just as much to me now as a midlife practitioner, as they did when i was an intern. We have to identify what is important, and for me, in the end, its about the human interactions and if you talk to doctors who are unhappy, even the unhappiest doctors will say the best part of their jobs is enter acting with people, talking to people. And that is something that no entity can take away. So, for me, its always about the human moments and what i like to call the gentle surprises. I want to give you one story about the gentle surprises of medicine. I remember when i was a third year resident. I was i went to the emergency room in the south bronx, and i had a twoweek stint there, and late one night i was asked to drain the fluid out of the belly of a woman with alcoholic cirrhosis. Her belly was full of fluid, and its a very brute force procedure. You put a needle in, hook it up to a tour, put the tube in a bucket and drain the fluid. So i went ins and introduced myself and said, im here to drain the fluid out of your belly. And she said okay, sure, go ahead. And she still had alcohol on her breath. So, i said, okay. I cleaned up her belly with iodine soap and i put in the catheter the needle to the catheter, and put the tube into a bucket, and i started filling the bucket and i said, look, if you move and this comes out im not putting it back in. And she says oh, okay sure. So im just there watching the fluid drain and a nurse comes in and says doctor you just got paged. She was carrying my beeper. I said, oh, okay. Well, can you keep an eye on her while i go out and answer my page. She said sure. And i remind my patient, you move and the catheter comes out im not going to put it back in because i have another ten patients to see. She said okay. So i go out and answer my pain. Three minutes later i walk back into the room and the catheter is out the buckets are all upturned and theres like fluid all over the floor. And i was like oh my gosh. So i look at her accusingly and i said, i thought i told you not to move. And she said doctor i didnt. A man came in here and had a seizure on the buckets. I was like, oh, god. And then the nurse walks in and i said i thought i told you to keep an eye on her. And she said i did. But then man walked in here and had a grand mal seizure on the bucket. This is what doctors experience. And these are special moments. No Insurance Company can take that away from you. Okay. We doctors have to become more conscious about what kind of physician we want to be. And i write in the book about sort of three professional archetypes. Knights, naves, and pawns. And in my parents era and my grandfathers era, doctors were knights. They were admired like no other professional group. Right up there with astronauts. And for good reason. American medicine improved patients longevity from 65, right before world war ii to 71, less than a generation later. Improvement of six or seven years of life and that was because of polio vaccinations and antibiotics and coronary bypass surgery and pacemakers. Doctors really delivered. They were knights. And then doctors went through a phase where they became thought of as naves, and the whole culture shifted. When doctors were knights, that was the era of general hospital. Early on when doctors when dr. Kildare, and then during this navish period, it was the era of m. A. S. H. And hawkeye but hawkeye was a great doctor but he was flawed. And there was e. R. That painted doctors as human, as flawed. So i talk about knights, naves, and pawns and the reality is that doctors are all three. We all have a touch of these three professional archetypes in us and we have to try to bring out the best, okay . And we have to do it in a culture that doesnt really understand what were going through. And ill tell you one last story and then ill take questions. So when i was a resident, we used to round in the intensive care unit. So there was a one night when i had been on call, and i the following morning we were rounding on our patients, and anyone has been in expensive care unit knows the horrible tragedies that happen in icus and our intensive care unit was no different. Theres a guy who had been misdiagnosed with a slip eddies can and had actually severed his spinal cord and was now completely paralyzed and there were patients who had multiple my loma on ventilators and it was a horrible unit, and so our teamed stayed up all night and we were rounding with an attending neighborhood abe sanders, and he was a great attending. He was a jocular fellow, and so we were going through and we found ourselves in a room of a patient who was on a ventilator, and we were presenting the case and sanders sort of like looked off, looking through the window and any of you who have been at New York Hospital know that theres a greenburg pavilion built over the fdr drives and looks out on to the east river. So sanders said, come over here. Look out the window. And it was brilliantly sunny day, and there were boats on the river, and we looked down there and there was a boat and there were a few people on the boat, and they looked like they were having a great time. Sipping bloody marys and they all looked beautiful, you know, and we were like sweaty and disgusting and had been on call all night and there was a fellow on board who was looking up at the hospital and he was turned out he was looking right at the window that we happened to be standing at. And sanders said, see that guy down there . And i looked at him and he was about sanders age but is fit, tan, and he was with all these Beautiful People and he was looking up and he said that guy down there, do you know know what he is thinking . We all looked and oh, are we going through this . We just want to get out of the hospital. You know what he is thinking . I looked down and none of us ventured a guess. And sanders says, that guy is thinking, i should have been a doctor. [laughter] and this is what we struggle with as physicians. People still view our profession in simple terms but today, i have a more nuanced view of medicine, and doctors are not perfect, and our profession isnt perfect but i do feel that doctors still want to be knights, and i think that theres a lot that we have to go through in the next ten 15, 20 years; we need to figure out a way to reclaim our professionalism, we need to figure out how we want to practice. We need to improve access to medical care. We need to control costs otherwise were going to bankrupt our economy. So theres a lot that we have to do but american medicine is technologically the best in the world, and i fervently hope that well find some solutions to the mess were in so that medicine can really reclaim its american medicine can reclaim its place as unquestionably the best in the world. So, i will end there and take some questions. But thank you so much for coming. [applause] im writing about my mothers end of life issues. This is where i find [inaudible] my mother has alzheimers it was clear in her chart and every time we went to the hospital with her, the doctors talked to her and asked her questions she cant speak and this goes on and on and on, and you tell a doctors over and over again, she has no capacity to answer your questions. Were her advocates. But this is gone on and on. With physicians. They dont Pay Attention. She is obviously gone. And yet they continue to ask her, how do you feel . What do you want . And extremely frustrating. When i finally found a doctor who would listen to me and said no more hospitals, no more interventions, hospice, cocktail palliative care, i literally wept. I couldnt believe he was listening to me. Thats profound. I think unfortunately your experience is not unique. End of life care is probably the single weakest link in the American Medical System and youre absolutely right. Unfortunately, your intuition is probably correct the doctors didnt listen to you, and i see this every day. That we go into a patients room and say, do you want this, this or this . And we present the information in ways they dont understand, sometimes they cant process it because theyre sick, and theyre anxious, and we do it all in the name of patient autonomy. Right . The patient made this decision. Were giving the patient the decision. But patients dont always want the decision. They want to be guided. In many, many cases. And i remember one case ill tell you briefly of a gentleman who came to the hospital and had apparently told all the doctors who were taking care of him that he never wanted to be intubated, and so he was in a situation where he was bleeding into his lungs, and i get a phone call saying that we did all question put in the stint and he is bleeding into his lungses and doesnt want to be intubated. And he is a young guy. And the choice was just let him drown, bleeding into his lungs, let him die, or do something about it. And i have witnessed so much of what you described of doctors sort of quickly presenting options, probably ive done it myself and then not really thinking about whether the patients understood the options. So, in this particular case, i knew that the interns and residents hadnt done a good job explaining to this fellow they probably asked him, if you were would you ever want to be on a breathing machine . And he probably said, no i dont want to but he didnt know exactly what he was signing up for. So they were going to actually let him die. and i said, im sure you didnt have the kind of conversation you needed to have with this fellow. Im going to put the breathing tube in. So we put the breathing tube in, and even though he had written in the chart do not rhesus rhesush resuscitate, and we had a tough course and we eventually got the tube out, and i went off service. I came back on service, and i went to his room, and i said i was the doctor who decided to put in the breathing tube, and i know it was written in the chart you didnt want it but you would have died if you didnt get it. And he said, ive been through a lot. But thank you. And so we have to improve the communication because we cant just throw it all on the patient without guiding them. So, thank you for your comment. Id like to say congratulations for making your life an adventure, rather than a goaloriented, allowing things to bring you greater the research and the opportunities you have taken advantage of. I applaud you for that. Thank you. Number two the question is, what kind of oppositions or hurtles have you had to hurdles have you had to overcome or deal with in doing your Research Writing your books . Im sure that everybody isnt patting you on the back. No. Im curious. Ive been pleasantly surprised that a lot of physicians have supported me in my writing. Especially my colleagues. Because doctors and patients arent stupid. They see the system the way it is. They know theres a lot of stuff going on. Some of it moral hazard nefarious, whatever you whatnot to call it. Its funny that there was a group of doctors, i would say that is shocked. Maybe theyre shocked i wrote about it or shocked this stuff is really going on. Im not sure. And theyve been fairly negative and vocal in their opposition to the book and then theres this group of doctors many of whom come up to me in the hospital and say doctor i heard you wrote this book and it was in New York Times best seller. And you write about [inaudible] everyone knows this is going on. And so its been a mixed response but ive been pleasantly surprised that a lot of people have been supportive. Thank you. After seeing your wonderful review of id like to hear more particular live you being a cardiologist and physicist, how you feel technology will change the interaction between patient and the physician. I think its already changed interaction. How many of you go in and gooddo see you doctor and he or she doesnt look up from the computer screen. And this happens every day. With Electronic Medical records. And i think the Technology May help us work our way out of that mess with better Voice Recognition software so that he writes about that, where well have software that will transcribe exactly what the doctors and patients are saying that you can edit later, but topol writes about virtual visits and telemedicine. I dont know how its all going to pan out. Im not sure if the quality will be there. The diagnosis at a distance. I personally feel that i need to see the patient listen to the patient, before i can make a good treatment plan, because every doctor has been through this. You read up on the patient youre going to go see, and they have a million issues, problems you read on the paper and then you walk in and theyre reading the New York Times, and then you think that really totally changes how you see them. So i think that the direct facetoface interaction is critical and not to mention that a machine is never going to be able to confer a healing touch. Theres something about just touching your patient that is beneficial. So i think technology will play a role in changing and hopefully improving alaska certification but its never going to replace a doctor. Or nurse. I would like to ask you talked about what your fellow physicians think about your writing, but i thought you were brutally hospital about your mother, about your father about your fatherinlaw, and even about your wife. So what did they have to say . Well, my wife is also a physician, and she has been on the journey with me, and she knows the crisis i went through. So i think she knows what is in the book. And she has read excerpts of it. I think she sort of has adopted a policy of benign neglect, like she doesnt want to Read Everything because she knows it all already. My brother, he is pretty hearty fellow thick skin, tough skin. He said, you do whatever you want and but overall my family has been very supportive, i think, and especially sonya who lets me do these things in and sort of keeps everything going and is a fantastic physician in her own right. So ive been lucky. But its always that dubious spot when youre writing a memoir and writing about your life because on one hand when your life is into intertwined with other peoples lives your story is partly their story so how do you disentangle the two. You cant. So i sort of when i was going through what was a tough crisis for me, i sort of adopted the policy of, im just going to write what i think, and so be it. And fortunately my family was supportive. You say that the system has to change to reduce the cost of health care. And you said you didnt know exactly how. Im sure you have had some thoughts. Ive been involved since 1960 and in 1970 we said it was out of control. And so its still out of control. One time we thought maybe corporations having to pay the bill would be the catalyst. But obviously corporations just moved overseas and now theyve stopped paying for health care. Whats the catalyst that will cheat a change . When you talked early 1970s, that was in the nixon era, and nixon to his credit, saw the problem and actually instituted price controls on a number of industries, including health care, and then lifted them on a number of industries but kept them on health care. And then he was a republican. So price controls for a republican, you know he knew that the system was careening out of control. I think the percentage of gdp of health care in that era was Something Like nine percent, and today its closer to 1819 . So its a huge problem. I think the fee for Service System had to be supplanted by replaced by Something Else and i dont know how many of you read Steven Brills knew new book. I think that he identifies the kaiser model as being the way out of the mess, where physicians and Healthcare Systems issue their own insurance product. They collect the premiums and they have the natural innocenttive to limit costs. Of course you have to put in various protections into place so they dont unnecessarily limit spending, but i think the kaiser model is a very reasonable one. I grew up in southern california, in the 70s and 80s and we went to kaiser and we got perfectly good health care. Some people advocate a single payer system. I dont see that happening in this country. What works in abroad doesnt wont work in the United States. I dont think. I remember one of my professors, who is teaching healthcare economics, was talking about the National Health service in england and then someone asked him, why dont we just do that here. He is like, america is too different. In england they live in a rainy climate, they drink warm beer, they learn to tougher it out at a young age. Thats not going to work in the United States. And hes probably right. So we have to tweak the system we have. If wore going build the system from scratch, i think the single payer system is the best system. Enjoyed your books and i think your second book is a wonderful book because it describes the realities of the practice of medicine today. I think a lot of people dont understand the reality of practice of medicine today. Im also a physician and i can relate to your book, particularly because i also met my wife as an intern at the New York Hospital. She is here. The question i have is not a medical question. Its more of a literary question. How does a writer doctor find an agent and deal with an agent which is something you dont learn in medical school. I was fortunate because i was writing for the New York Times so the agent actually found me and reached out to me. But lets talk afterwards. Are you a writer . [inaudible] well, find me afterwards and well talk about it. Thank you again. [applause] thank you so much. Please join me in thanking dr. Jauhar again. If you want to get your book signed, please allow him to get to the authors signing tent. We hope to see you back here at 2 50 for karen an about. Abbott. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] youve been watching dr. Sandeep jauhar. Our live coverage continues in 20 minutes. Karen abbott is next. She has written about women spies during the civil war. Live coverage from the savannah book festival begins again shortly. [inaudible conversations] heres a look at some books being published this week. New york times reporter traces the origins of the board game monopoly. In the age of acquiescence criticizing the politics of fear. Assistant professor for environmental studies at New York University proposes the public shaming of corporate and government leaders can be used as a form of nonviolent protest. And to explain the world, Nobel Prize Winning physicist gives an analysis of modern science and travel writer talks about miss time living in rural chinese farming community. Look for these titles in book stores this coming week and watch for the authors on booktv. Org. This past thursday february 12th, david carr, media columnist for the New York Times, passed away at the age of 58. Mr. Carr appeared on booktv in 2008 to talk about his memoir posterior the night of the gun. I would have liked as a person to go back and find out that i was actually just a jolly kid from the suburbs who had a few problems. Thats not what i found. In the course of the interviews i found out that i put a lot of people at risk around me and even when i did recover, it was owing to and in response both primarily for the love and attention that other people hold me a whole tribe of people came and were lifting and pulling on me, so my little heroic narrative didnt really fit with what i had learned. Part of what got me started on the book was my daughters were going to college and tuition tends to focus the mind, tends to beckon the muse, and at the same time they were writing their essays for college and their essays about our life growing up together what it was like to have been born two and a half months premature to drugaddicted parents and then have your dad raise you mostly by himself, was fundamentally different than my own and i thought, after i read their essays, i wonder what other people would say and in my day job i work at the New York Times and ive never really met a story that didnt get better when you applied the leverage of reporting to it. And so i said go back and interview a bunch of different people. Its all on a web site i made. You can check out the interviews i did. What i found was very different from what i remembered, and i realize that over time actually the truth i think youll find this true in your own life between people. Its not if you think of the stories your family tells to explain itself to each other, how many of those stories are exactly precisely true . Its a way of creating narrative, of understanding our past and coming up with the version of ourselves in the future not all of these stories are bad. Theres a point in the book where i assumed once i sobered up i was the presumptive custodial parent of my twins. So i went and saw a family law attorney who made it happen and i said, i was pretty much like baby jesus when you saw me. I was sober and the mother was not, and it was an open and shut case. She is a nice minnesota lady her name is barbara. You can see her on the videotape trying to figure out how to say what she is about to say to me. Which is, you were really huge. You didnt smell very good. You dressed like a homeless person. And we wondered about the ethics of placing children in your hands, whether you fully understood the implications of that. And im going so not baby jesus. So says more like unholy mess actually. And the think about that is if i had known how i scanned at the time and how unfit i was to be a parent of these little baby girl i would have found that paralyzing. So this lie or fable i told myself allowed me to hang in long enough to kind of get to learn to be these guys parent. So some of these stories we tell ourselves end up helping us on our way. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] more of booktvs live coverage of the savannah book festival shortly. [inaudible conversations] a look now at the current best selling nonfiction books according to the New York Times. Topping the list a look at end of life care in being mortal. Norm former Mike Huckabees take on culture. Next in killing patton bill recounting the life of general george patton. Then the investigation of a racially charged murder in, ghetto side. Deep down dark comes in tenth place. The account of the 33 chilean miners trapped underground. And up next, Steven Brills analysis of the healthcare system, followed by george w. Bushs profile of his father george h. W. Bush in 41. The New York Times nonfiction best sellers his continues with the account of the life as a Guantanamo Bay detainee in guantanamo diary. And in i am malala Nobel Peace Prize recipient recounts growing up in taliban controlled northern pakistan. And wrapping up the list a history of the underGround Railroad in, gateway to freedom. Thats a look at the list of nonfiction best sellers according to the New York Times. Reuters legal cooperate was an author. Her book breaking in the rise of sonia sotomayor. What did we learn about sonia sotomayor. We learned what she has been doing while she has been on the court for the last five years. This book is a political history that tells you how she got on the Supreme Court, and then what her life has been like since. It picks up where her memoir left off. You learn in the opening chapter how she persuaded her fellow justices to salsa with her. Then you also learn how she has been effective behind the scenes on the law, and times when she hasnt been so effective. You haveless written a biography of antonin scalia. How are they different . How are they the same . Well, there are a lot to the same in some ways. Both new yorkers, one frommance one from the bronx. Both very distinctive personalities, both checking up the court. She has been there since 2009. I would neverunder estimate what she is about to do never underestimate what she is about to do. She is a very good agent for himself, not unlike he was for himself, and they both understand the importance of being visible. Look our visible Justice Scalia has been with his own book and look how visible she has been already. If you put on your Legal Correspondent hat for just a second where its National Press club night here at author night at the National Press club. You just happened to be standing next to ted olson, the former solicitor general, when he gets before the court, whats the reaction of the justices to him and how does he play to them . Thats a great question. Something ive studied for a long time. Ive been covering the court at least as long as ted olson has been around. They know him personally. They know him from way back when. He was in the Reagan Administration just the way chief Justice John Roberts was in the Reagan Administration. He social iowaed with antonin schoola. He actually spends new years eve with justice right baiter ginsburg, Justice Scalia and elana kagan. They know him and will often refer to him by the first name. So the Pay Attention when he speaks like they Pay Attention to the regulars up there, and he has certainly lets see. Hes been on 60 something arguments before the justices. He has some different quirks of which watches he wears what he argues, howl he does it. Its fascinating to watch him and watch hough the justices respond watch how the justices respond. They responsibility especially to many of the former solicitors general, just like seth waxman who was the solicitor general for bill clinton, and ted olson was she solicitor general for george w. Bush. Does he play to the justices . Well, they all know to argue to justice kennedy. He is awesome in the swing vote position. Or they know which justice might be the swing vote in their particular case. Whether its on Something Like samesex marriage, that he is doing now or if its on a pension case. These lawyers know who they need to convince. How o. You talk about this in breaking in how often can the justices have personal relationships with the lawyers that argue in front of them . Theyre all appointed for life but a the all had history before they came on the court. They were either in an administration with some of the justices, some of the lawyers themselves 0 maybe they once worked for them. Elena kagan was the boss to several of the men and women who argue before the court now when she herself was solicitor general. There are plenty of professional and personal interactions. Whats your next book . I dont know but its so much fun. Do you have an idea . This is more of a political history than a biography. And im kind of running out of the ones with really great personal stories. So, ive got to think long and hard. The other reason you have to think long and hard is you spend so much time doing it, pulls you away from your family and day job so you want to choose wisely. Breaking in the name of the book the rice of sonia sotomayor, and the poll sicks of justice. Politics of justice. [inaudible conversations] now live from savannah, author karen abbott her book, liar, temptress soldier, spy. The story of four women who served undercover in the civil war. Youre watching booktv on cspan2. [inaudible conversations] good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Id like to wish you a happy valentines day if you have forgotten. My name is chris aiken and im delighted to welcome you to the eighth null savannah book festival and to thank the presenting sponsors, Georgia Power and bob and jean fair cloth. Were blessed again to host celebrated authors of trinity unite Methodist Church beautiful venue made possible by the generosity of jim and ann his by. The International Paper foundation, the Savannah Morning News and the savannah magazine and we would also like to thank cspan for coming to the festival and filming live here today in honor of valentines day wed also like to spread some love to all of our sponsors, our members, and individual donors who make Saturdays Free festival possible. If you would like to lend your support to the festival we welcome your donations and have provided yellow bucks for books buckets at the doors as you exit. Before we get started i just like to remind you about a couple of things. Please take this moment to turn off your cell phone. We also ask that theres no flash photography and most important thing today, especially as this hall is filled for the question and answer portion we ask that you line up down the center aisle. But also if you cannot get down, we dont expect you to leap from the balcony, id like to be sure you come forward if you have any questions up there just to lean stand up and speak as clearly as you can so the tv can catch your question. If youre planning to attend the closing address with ann and cliff rice tomorrow the correct time for the presentation is 3 00 p. M. , and immediately following the presentation karen abbott will be signing festival purchased books. And before we welcome miss abbott lets thank roy and mage richard who sponsored her appearance here today. [applause] i also, before i really talk about karen, i would like to say that i am very honored to be speaking about her today because it just so happens my book club it was her book we read for the month of january. And so i am very honored and blessed to be with her and i am also from philadelphia. I have to put that in. My book club is here, i think. I think i see some of them in the audience. They can raise their hand. What book did you like . I wish. U. S. A. Today has called karen an bolt the pioneer of sizzle history. For good reason. Her first two books, sin and the second city and american roads embraced topics as the early club. The most famous brothel in American History, and famed strip tease artist gypsy rose lee. Her latest book, liar, temptress, soldier spy. Tells the story of a socialite, a farm girl and abolitionist and a widow who became spies during the civil war. The women in the sub title including bell body who work for the confederacy and elizabeth and emma who were union operatives inch keeping with her other books the tale is extensively researched and clearly written. She is feature ever corrector to smithsonian magazines history blog and a native of philadelphia she now lives in new york city with her husband and two african gray aparts, poe and dexter. Please welcome karen abbott. [applause] thank you first for that lovely introduction. Thanks for the savannah book festival for bringing me her and thank you for coming out here today. Im very excited to be back in savannah, one of my favorite southern towns. In fact some of the most interesting anecdotes and quote is came across during my research for the book were about savannah women. For example in december of 1864, when Union General William Tecumseh sherman captured savannah one local woman proclaimed, i wish a thousand pins were stuck in his bed and he was strapped down on them. Another woman and her friends were forced to host a group of occupying Union Soldiers in their homes, and speaking for that group wound woman quipped can just the meteor thought of being among the damn yankees are enough to make all prematurely old. Of course there was another craftier side for these women. When they used their southern charges to bewitch the Occupying Soldiers and they called it, quote, buttering those yankees to serve our own ends. So ill talk how i got into this book. I am from philadelphia. I was born and raised in philadelphia. So i moved to atlanta, georgia in 2001, and spent six years there are and it was quite a Culture Shock as you can imagine. I had to get used to seeing the occasionol con fred rat flags on the lawn, the jokes about the war of northern aggression, and just the idea that the civil war seeped into daily life and conversation down south in a way it never does up north. And the point was driven home when i was stuck in traffic on route 400. If anyone has spend time in atlanta you have been stuck in traffic on route 400 for two hours behind a pickup truck with a Bumper Sticker that said dont blame me. I voted for Jefferson Davis. [laughter] who of course is the president of the confess was si. I was stuck behind the truck for two hours and had quite a bit of time to start thinking more in depth about the civil war, and my mind always goes, to what were the wimp doing . And not just any women. What were the bad women doing . The defiant women, in the revolutionary became doing . Some women did things like knit socks and sew uniforms and hold bizarres to raise money for supplies. Other women became informal recruiting officers especially southern women. They shamed any man who shirked his duty to fight. There was a great story about one southern lady who was very embarrassed by the fact her fiancee did not enlist so she sent over her slave with a backage and the package contained a skirt and a note and the note said ware this skirt or volunteer. He volunteered. And some women dared to go further. And i wanted to find four such women, women who lied, spied, dranked, and murdered their way through the war, and i think i managed to do that. My goal with the book was to weave a tapestry and tell the story of the civil war, hopefully in a way that had not been told before and it was important to me that their stories intersected in interesting ways. There was a cause and effect. One womans circumstances would affect another womans behavior and vice versa. Throughout the war. I usually do this talk with a slide show and all of the slide is use are actually in the book. The book is foul pictures of the women and some civil war events and locales. This is the first time im doing it like this and im just going to tell you 12 of my favorite people, facts and events of the civil war. Im going to start off with bell boyd; a 17yearold girl living in virginia, when the war broker out. She was a confederate girl and was interesting to me because she was all she had no filter not even for herself. One of my favorite anecdotes of bell body has to do with a letter she sent to her cousin when she was 16, lobbying him to find her a husband. Ill read this letter. I am tall i weigh 106 and a half pounds. My form is beautiful. My eyes are of a dark blue and so expressive. My hair of a rich brown and i think i tie it up nicely. My neck and arms are beautiful. And my foot is perfect. Only wear size two and a half shoes. My teeth the same pearly whiteness, i think perhaps a little whiter. Nose quite as large as ever, beautifully shaped and indeed i am decidedly the most beautiful of all of your cousins. Sobell had no problems with selfesteem. If you have to have a copy of the book you can look it up and make your conclusions about her beauty or lack thereof. She kicks things off in july of 1861. The union small group of union forces are marching up the they were planning on having a fourth of july celebration. Publish. Block. She decides to tap into her wide network of confederate family members and friends who are in the army and to get herself a piece of the army, to the contribute her own work for the rebels. And she becomes a courier and spy for the rebel army. And belle is a little bit of a seductress. It was very rare, especially in a 17yearold girl. I like to say if sarah palin and miley cyrus had a 19th century baby [laughter] it would have been belle boyd. [laughter] she was a little bit like civil war girls gone wild. [laughter] and she seduced union men, confederate men. I like to file this one under things you cant make up. This is why i like nonfiction, its always funnier than fiction. One of her reported paramours was a man by the name of major dick long. [laughter] i must be a 12yearold boy, i found that really hilarious. [laughter] she also reportedly she told one northern reporter she was quote, closeted for four hours with Union General James Shields and subsequently wrapped a rebel flag around his head to celebrate this conquest. So men loved belle boyd. Women did not like belle boyd quite as much. They had several nicknames for her, one of which was quote, the fastest girl in virginia or anywhere else more that matter. [laughter] but belle would go on to have many exciting adventures throughout the civil war that i talk about in the book. The next person that i want to talk about is a spy named private Frank Thompson. And private Frank Thompson comes into the war with a secret. Private Frank Thompson is actually a woman named emma edmunds and has been living as a man for two years. And emma edmunds had quite an interesting and difficult childhood. She was born and raised in canada to a father who was increasingly disappointed by the fact that his of wife kept bearing sons excuse me, daughters. He wanted a son. And edmunds did her best to become a son figure to her father but still failed him. And he told emma he was going to arrange a marriage for her just as he had done for all of her older sisters, and emma didnt want any part of this. She craved the life of excitement for herself and she decided that one day she was going to cut her hair, bind her breasts and trade in her man suit for a womans dress and start living, um life as private Frank Thompson. And she becomes an itinerant bible salesman and migrates to the United States and starts hearing about abolitionist john brown and decides she wants to enlist. She considers herself a devout christian and is against the idea of slavery and wants to fight for the union cause. So in the spring of 1861 in detroit, she enlists. And you might ask well, how could she pass the medical examination and fool the doctors in order to become a private for the union army . Its a good question, and, you know doctors across the country were told to conduct thorough medical examinations, but they all flouted these rules. They had quotas to fill, bodies to get out there as quickly as possible, so they conducted these rather cursory medical exams. They really only helped if you had powder cartridges, if you had enough fingers to pull the trigger and feet to march. That was pretty much it. So the doctor passes emma into the army, and she takes on the name private Frank Thompson, and she starts living among her comrades. And you might ask, well, how did they not detect she was a woman . After all, theyre sleeping in the same tents etc. , and how did they not, you know, discern that a woman was among them . And i came to the conclusion, i should say that emma was one of about 400 women for both north and south who disguised themselves as men and fought in the union or confederate armies. And i came to the conclusion that most of them got away with this because nobody knew what a woman would look like wearing pants. You know people were so used to seeing womens bodies pushed and pulled into these exaggerated shapes with corsets and cent lins that the very idea of a woman wearing pants was so unfathomable that even if she were standing in front of you wearing pants you wouldnt see it. So women sort of brilliantly exploited ideas of femininity and what a woman could look like in order to get away with this subterfuge. Emma had to be careful. She was involved in of the wars bloodiest battles, but she had to be careful about being detected. If her gender were discovered, she could be arrested, charged these are confederate spies living in washington, d. C. And rose was in a very difficult position. Her whole life had fallen apart in the years leading up to the war. She had lost five children in four year, if you can imagine that. She had lost her husband in a freak accident, and she had lost her access to the white house. This is somebody who had been friends with high ranking democratic politicians for years leading up to the civil war. Shed even been a close adviser to president james buchanan, and she lost all of this when lincoln and the republicans came into power and lincoln took over the white house. So in the spring of 1861 when a confederate captain approached rose and asked her to form a confederate spy ring in the capital of washington d. C. , rose jumps at the chance and she begins cultivating sources by cultivating i mean sleeping with [laughter] also several union men. In fact, her most important source and reported lover was senator henry wilson of massachusetts who was not only an abolitionist republican, but he was also lincolns chairman of the committee on military affairs. And heres a little brief clip of a love letter he purportedly wrote to rose. You know that i do love you. I am suffering this morning. In fact i am sick physically and mentally and know nothing that would soothe me so much as an hour with you. So you can imagine they had some very interesting and lucrative pillow talk that rose took full advantage of. My next favorite thing is rose greenes house cipher which is fascinating to look at. If anybodys familiar with Edgar Allen Poes story the bold bug it has mysteriouslooking symbols that are concealing letters, numbers and words. Rose had a very special symbol for president lincoln. It was this sort of upside down triangle bisected by a slash, and lincoln shows up in a lot of her cipher work. Rose had two nicknames for president lincoln. Weapon was bean pole, and the other one was bean pole and the other was satan. [laughter] gives you an idea of her feelings there. And it was really fascinating to learn more about her spy craft. When she didnt have time to write messages in her cipher, she found other ways to communicate with confederate officials. She learned the morse code, for example, and at certain appointed times confederate scouts were told to watch her windows for signals and rose would raise and lower her blinds according to to the dots and dashes of the morse code. And she could achieve the same effect by using the precise flutteringings of her fan flutterings of her fan, so pretty crafty there. And her spy craft proved useful very early on in the war. Lincoln and the north basically thought the war was going to be over in 90 days. Their grand plan was to meet the confederates at the battle of bull run. I once got in trouble for saying bull run in the south, so i wont make that mistake again, the battle of ma nas us, and they would advance on to richmond and win the war. Well rose and the confederates had a different idea about this and in the days leading up to the battle, rose after seducing senator henry wilson and getting some valuable information summoned a 16yearold courier named betty to her home on Lafayette Square in washington, d. C. , and she wrote up a dispatch and tied it up in a piece of black silk and rolled it up in bettys hair so it was cleverly concealed much like my hairs probably carrying a few dispatches right now. [laughter] and she told betty duval that she was just going to cross over the lines, and the Union Sentries would think she was nothing more than a pretty girl on her way home from market. Theyd wave her on through. So betty goes across the lines and she arrives at general beauregards headquarters, undoes her hair in a dramatic and romantic fashion and hands over this note which basically told the Confederate Forces exactly how many union troops to expect and when they were planning on marching so the confederates could position themselves and be ready. And we of course, we we know the confederates kicked some butt and the war would go on much longer than 09 days, obviously. Next t 0 cays. Next american is a union spy by the name of Elizabeth Van lieu. She was number one a union spy living in the confederate capital of richmond, so they were opposed on that front. And whereas rose was outspoken and brazen, elizabeth was quiet and discreet and really cunning. And whereas rose was a celebrated beauty one of elizabeths contemporaries wrote that she was, quote never as pretty as her portrait showed. [laughter] yeah. If you could see the picture of elizabeth, its quite cruel. But elizabeth also had an interesting upbringing. She was born and raised in richmond but was sent north to philadelphia to be educated and was under the care of an abolitionist governess. When she returned to richmond, she was appalled at the condition of the slaves, and she had become an abolitionist herself and decided to fight for the union cause. Before the war people thought elizabeth was just sort of eccentric. She was a strange woman who had never married, she was living with her mother in this grand old mansion in richmond, she was sort of an eccentric character. But after the war it was very dangerous for elizabeth to be outspoken about abolitionist opinions and to have of a perceived northern sympathy. She was the recipient of many Death Threats from her neighbors, confederate detectives followed her wherever she went. But nevertheless, elizabeth decided to form a union spy ring in the confederate capital of richmond, and she began recruiting people from all walks of life. One of them was her brother by the name of john van lew and i had the great pleasure of calculating with the great grand of connecting with the great grandson of one of johns towers, and he told me daughters, and he told me incredible things. And just to give you a little taste of that, it mostly had to do with familys hardware businessment they had a prominent hardware business for years in richmond and one of the most impressive buildings in the state of virginia. And he used the hardware business as a front for his spy ring in a way. He would take blank invoices and purchase orders and fill them out as if they were regular business documents but every number he wrote down corresponded with certain military terminology. For example 370 iron hinges might mean 3700 cavalry. So when he crossed the lines and confederates looked at his papers, they would just think this was the normal course of business, but once he got over to union lines and to his contacts, he was able to interpret everything and give them the information they needed. But Elizabeth Van lews great coup was in the form of a woman named mary jane becauser. Elizabeth had freed all of the family slaves, and many of them had stayed on to work for her, and elizabeth got a bright idea. She had heard that verena davis who was Jefferson Davis wife, needed to staff the white house. She was looking for help and she put out a call to the social rideties of richmond to ladies of richmond to help her staff the white house and send over any good recommendations for staff. And elizabeth decided to pay mrs. Davis a business. And she says well, i have a girl for you. Shes not very bright and she stumbles in the kitchen, but shes loyal, and shell work very hard for you and your family. So elizabeth sends over mary jane bowser who was a former family slave in the van lew household. And little does anyone know that mary jane is not only literate but gifted with a photographic memory. So while shes dusting Jefferson Davis desk and picking up the childrens toys shes also sneaking peeks at his confidential papers and eavesdropping on his conversations and reporting all of this back to Elizabeth Van lew. What made all of this even more dangerous and adding another layer of treachery was that john van lew, elizabeths brother was married to an ardent confederate sympathizer, and theyre all living in the same house. So theyre conducting all of this business knowing that theres somebody amongst them who, if she had any inkling about what they were doing or any evidence, she would not hesitate to report this immediately to confederate authorities. And elizabeth knew that as well. The next person id like talk about is confederate general Stonewall Jackson who im sure, is a very familiar person to many people in this room. And i like stonewall. He was sort of the rock star of the civil war. He was sort of my civil war boyfriend. I liked him such an eccentric interesting, brilliant man. But i like the way that southerners perceived him in particular and the way they treated him. And it was a great story i came across about Stonewall Jackson in a hotel lobby in the Shenandoah Valley in 1862. And women are cornering him, theyre swarming him, theyre ripping buttons off of his coat and keeping them as souvenirs and belle boyd is among this crowd. She reports that she hears him say, ladies, ladies, this is the very first time ive been surrounded by the enemy. Laugh [laughter] smooth guy right . So belle boyd, of course is obsessed with Stonewall Jackson. So obsessed that she tells reporters that she wants to quote occupy his tent and share his dangers. [laughter] which if i were stonewall jack soften, would have frightened me more than anything the jackson would have frightened me, just the fact that belle boyd wanted to sleep this my tent. Would have been enough to make me run. My next one is blockade runners of the civil war, and i usually show a cartoon with this depicting a womans cent lin that at the apex of its popularity reached a diameter of six feet. Southern women were quite expert at this she managed to conceal a roll of army cloth, several pairs of cavalry boots a roll of crimson flannel cans of preserved meats and a bag of coffee. That was the contraband tally for a single crossing. [laughter] belle boyd was sort of the queen of this blockade and she specialized in smuggling weaponnings. And she sort of recruited a group of southern ladies to help her in this endeavor. And one fall morning in 1861 the 28th pennsylvania aa woke to awoke to discover 400 pistols cavalry equipment for 200 men and 1400 musket were missing. Waiting transfer to southern lines thanks to belle boyd and her network of ladies. And to me, this was one of the most fascinating parts about womens roles in the civil war. They were able to to take societys ideas and constructs about womanhood and perceived weaknesses and exploit them brilliantly to their own benefit. And they used their gender as a psychological disguise. Physically, theyre hiding things in their hair, under their hoop skirts and psychologically women would have a ready answer if they were ever accused of treasonous activity. And this had happened a couple of times to Elizabeth Van lew and her response always was how dare you accuse me of such behavior. I am a defenseless woman, you know . [laughter] and it worked. It was something that people did not know how to respond to and it was that and it was quite an effective and brilliant way [inaudible] the next person is detective Allen Pinkerton and i had no idea he was this involved in secret service work during the war, but he was. He was hired to do secret service work for the union army, and his First Mission was to conduct a stakeout on confederate spy rose greenhelm. Allen pinkerton and two of his best men go to roses home on Lafayette Square. Rose always liked to say, by the way, her home was quote, within rifle range of the white house. [laughter] and Allen Pinkerton has to get up stand on two of his detectives shoulders just to peek in her window, and what does he see, but rose sitting there on the couch with a traitorous union captain, and theyre looking over maps and fortifications and papers that clearly have information about the war and about union plans. And pinkerton is furious. Pinkerton declares rose public enemy number one and decides hes going to make it his mission in life to get rose which makes for some interesting cat and mouse activity as the war goes on. And this was also another entering part about womens roles in the civil war interesting part about womens roles in the civil war. Women had always been victims of war, they were never perpetrators, and loyalty was the prime attribute of femininity itself. Womens loyalty was always assumed. So for the very first time theyre grappling with the idea that women are not only capable of treasonous activity but theyre more capable than men. One lincoln official had this great quote that sort of sums it up he says what are we going to do with these fashionable women spies . And its something they have to spend quite a bit of time answering. My next person is a fellow by the name of benjamin stringfellow. He is a confederate spy for general jeb stewart. He had blond hair blue eyes, and he weighed 94 pounds. One of his come raids said he had a waist comrades said he had a waste just like a womans. He had sort of an ingenious mode of getting his information. He would dress in elaborate ball gowns and go to Union Military balls and wait for the men to ask him to dance. And they did ask him to dance. They thought sally martin was very charming. And while sally martin was dancing with these Union Soldiers, she would find out whatever she could about ulysses s. Grants plans and report it back to general jeb stewart. Because so i like to include him because it just goes to show the men were in on the crossdressing action during the civil war too. [laughter] number 11 is spy disguises. I was fascinated by the way people disguised themselves as spies during the civil war. Things that seem so rudimentary and primitive today. People would have epileptic fits, one guy removed his glass eye, they would feign a limp, they would pose as peddlers itinerant photographers and some people disguised themselves as slaves which i thought was odd until it makes sense when you think about just as nobody expected a woman to disguise themself as a man, nobody expected people to disguise themselves as slaves. It was all well and good unless it became excessively hot or started raining and your disguise literally started running could down your skin. This actually happened to one of my spies later on in the book. And number 12 my favorite things during the civil war, was how the female soldiers got caught. I mentioned earlier there were about 400 women who disguised themselves a men and en as men and enlisted in the war and you know, the reports started circulating as the war went on about women, you know, in the reactions. And people were in the ranks and people were shocked about this. Even more shocking to me was how they were discovered. There was one private her captain threw an apple at her, and she tried to grab the hem of her nonexistent apron to catch the apple, thereby giving herself away since she was not warring an apron. One woman recruit reportedly forgot how to put on pants. She tried to pull them over her head. [laughter] and the final one and my very favorite, a corporal in new jersey gave birth while she was on picket duty. [laughter] so the jig was up. So anyway those are my 12 favorite people, events and facts of the civil war. If anybody has any questions or any stories or wants to tell me how their own ancestors got rid of the damn yankees, i would love to hear it. [applause] [inaudible] line up here. In. [inaudible] rose came back from europe, whatever happened to little rose who she left in a convent in paris . Um, the question was about rose and what happens to her after the war. And just to back up a little bit about that later on in the war rose was sent by Jefferson Davis to be a lobbyist on behalf of the confederacy to try to convince england and france to recognize the south as its own legitimate country which was unprecedented for an american president of the south, you know the south obviously considered itself its own country, to send a woman to do its business. So that was quite a remarkable thing. And what happens to roses daughter after the war . She grows up and gets married and misses her mama very dearly and theres not too much information about, about little rose. But she does marry and sort of go on to have her own happy and productive life. But she and her mother were very close, and i should say that little rose was an important mother part of her mothers spy plans. Her mother would often use her daughter to send messages and hide messages and things like that. So rose oneill greenhowe was is so invested in the southern cause she was willing to not only risk her own life, but that of her 8yearold daughter as well. Any more questions . [inaudible conversations] well, thank you all. Thanks for coming. [applause] a great story and a very true story. If youd like to get your book signed, please allow her to leaf the sanctuary so she can go to Telfair Square and we hope to see you back here at 4 10 when Donald Miller will talk about the jazz age. Thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] and that was author karen abbott talking about her book, liar, temptress soldier, spy the story of four women who served undercover during the civil war. Weve got one more panel to show you, and this is about prohibition era manhattan. That will begin in about 20 minutes. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] there are. [inaudible conversations] youre watching booktv on cspan2 with top nonfiction books and authors every weekend. Booktv, television for serious readers. Rebecca frankel is the author of war dogs. Ms. Frankel, whats on the cover of your book . So this is a handler and his dog, and theyre doing a Training Exercise for a mission that they might have to do in afghanistan or iraq which does include a drop from a helicopter. What sparked you to write about war dogs . My job in foreign policy, weve been writing about the iraq war for as long as its been going on and i really love dogs. So as i was looking at photos coming in off the wire, i saw this one photo that sort of stood out as different in afghanistan, and it was because there were these marines and their bombsniffing dogs, and they were just hanging out, and everyone looked very happy. Theres a very strong contrast to the unfortunate photos that are more gritty and more gory. So tom suggested that we partner in [inaudible] and i did that for about four years and it turned into a book. How many dogs are used in the military . Whats the cost of training one . Well, the costs vary. So and it varies beginning with how expensive the dog is. So the breeders that the military gets their dogs from are in europe. And the dogs are a little bit more expensive because theyre pedigree, and their training is more intense, we can say that. But it can cost anywhere from 20,000 to 50,000 depending. And [inaudible] the time and energy that is invested in them after that. Whats one thing that surprised you about what they learn . Um, theres a lot of things, actually, because i think i realized i mean we know you have a dog at home you kind of understand [inaudible] the communication between you and your dog is just there. They sort of understand what we say to them. But the intensity [inaudible] that they have on their handlers is multiplied in a lot of ways. Their sense of smell is incredible. They have 20 million 200 million scent receptors in their noses, we only have 5 million scent receptors in our noses. Their eye sight is better in the dark, so theyre an incredible capability that weve incorporated over the years, but they also offer the companionship and the company. They do a lot. Have we lost any of these speciallytrained dogs in war . Yes. The number actually is very hard to calculate. All the different branches in the military keep their own records, so there isnt one large dog record of what happened to them. The air force actually keeps records, and they pool them from the the other branches, but that doesnt include the number of special forces dogs, and there were a lot of them that were used in iraq and probably still being used in afghanistan. But those dont come into play, so that number is of unknown quantity. But, yes, of course, theyre doing a very dangerous job. Theyre out in front of their handlers the theyre the ones closest to danger because theyre there to detect ieds. War dogs is the name of the book, Rebecca Frankel is the author. A look now at the current best selling nonfiction books according to the New York Times up next thats a week at this thats a look at this weeks list of best selling nonfiction according to the New York Times. [inaudible conversations] and on your screen now is a live picture from inside Trinity United Methodist church, home of the annual savannah book festival in georgia. And we will be back in just a few minutes with more live coverage. [inaudible conversations] heres a look at some books that are being published this week look for these titles in bookstores this coming week and watch for the authors in the near future on booktv. Org. And now joining us on booktv from Johns Hopkins university is Benjamin Ginsburg, a professor of Political Science here. His book is called the worth of war. Well show you the cover in just a minute. But, dr. Ginsburg, you write in here that the unpleasant fact is that although war is terrible and brutal, we should not assume that all its consequences are abhorrent. What does that mean . Guest well, you know, this is a book that i wrote in response to a Bumper Sticker. You know the Bumper Sticker we all see war is not the answer . Well, it depends on the question. And there are a lot of questions that unfortunately, have to be answered via war and violence. Its the nature of the world. War is a major force in building modern society. It has answered three of the main questions of politics; statehood, territoriality and power. Every state that exists, including especially the United States of america, is the product of war. And we dont like to remember in this. Kids are taught about the American Revolution in terms of philosophical issues. While they didnt exactly debate with the british, they fought. It was a very bloody revolution one of the bloodiest revolutions in history and it determined that there would be a United States of america. And i would say that virtually every state in the world was created by war. Very few exceptions. Territoriality. Who controls what piece of territory, you know . Every piece of territory on the face of the earth used to belong to somebody else. And it was taken there them by war. From them by war. We dont like to admit that. But as i recall the native americans didnt trade us north america. The white settlers seized it violentlyy. Thats true of every place. And someday it will be taken from us. Thats the nature of history. And finally, power. Power within any nation is often settled, most often settled by violence. Not by the ballot box. Voting peaceful participation, those come later. The broad contours of who holds power come about because of violence. Take our recent history. An africanamerican was elected to the presidency. Good enough. But the fact that africanamericans are not slaves, that was resolved by violence. So for better or worse, our world is produced by war by violence and not by peaceful forms of political activity. We dont like it but its true. Some people out there listening are going to say well weve grown up. We should be more sophisticated than we were 400, 200, 100 years ago. Willing well, i wish well i wish it was true. But unfortunately, not everyone is. And so long as not everyone is peaceful and sophisticated, all others have to be prepared to fight. The one case that i can find historically of a nation of a group that was totally true to pacifist principles is the case of the maori of the Chatham Islands in new zealand. They were true pacifists. They would not fight for any reason. Unfortunately, a neighboring tribe on another island knew they wouldnt fight, so they invaded the island and killed and ate them. Pacifism is rare and not always the best thing. If we lived in a world of angels, we could be pacifists but we dont can. Host Benjamin Ginsburg, you write war is terrible, but it has also been a major engine of human progress. Guest yeah, isnt that ironic . When you consider various aspects of human progress, many of them are outgrowths of war. Take technological progress. Now, generally speaking basic science arises at place like hopkins. It arises in the minds of scientists and engineers. But transforming basic science into technology that we use, that usually is a result of war and military needs. So much of our technology stems from military applications. Atomic energy, jets, microwaves, radar, metallurgy, chemistry. All of these are results of military investments over the years transforming laboratory ideas into technology. Sometimes those get beaten into flow shares, and thats plowshares, and thats technological progress. So much of the modern world results from military ideas. Take, for example, planning. The profession of planning is a military profession. Armies planned. Engineering. Do you know that an engineer was someone who built weapons and fortifications . Today we have Civil Engineers who distinguish themselves from their militaristic brethren. In fact, the joke in the engineering profession is that Civil Engineers build the targets, other engineers knock them down. The field of engineering is a military field. Bureaucracy. Bureaucracy, for better or worse, arose from military organization. Our world is a world built by war. Host what did we learn from our civil war technologically . Guest well, from the civil war we learned a lot about supply logistics that are used and the distribution of food and material throughout world today. We learned a lot about metallurgy. We learned a lot about chemistry, all of which was developed for military purposes but then became part of our civilian society our civilian economy. But ill tell you, theres one thing that is the harshest but most important lesson of war. People say, you know wars crazy. Its irrational. But the truth is the opposite. War forces societies to think rationally because if you dont think rationally youll disappear. This is the lesson of the great history of the pell to nice pell to news january war. The athenians wanted to establish a naval base on melos. The athenians said look were not going to bother you. We want to establish a naval base. The melians said if you try to stay, we will fight. The athenians said well, our army is ten times as large as yours, you have no chance. The melians said our cause is just so surely the gods will take up our cause and you will be defeated. The athenians said, well, of course, we believe in the gods too. Were second to none in our belief. But weve learned that the gods tend to favor the larger army. [laughter] the melians fought and were destroyed. The lesson here is that war is a stern teacher. And what it teaches is that youve got to think straight. You cant be superstitious or silly because, generally speaking youll be destroyed if you dont think rationally. Societies that enter wars with silly ideas suffer. Why did the nazis lose the Second World War . They should have won. Well, one reason they won was that they were nazis. Hitler couldnt adjust his thinking to reality. He regarded the russians as one dimension, subhumans who would be brushed away by the [inaudible] but on the other hand his armies were going to depend on russian and ukrainian peasants for their supplies. Well murdering those peasants wasnt a good way to get their cooperation. The germans lost because of logistical problems. They couldnt adjust their thinking to reality. The russians, on the other hand did. Stalin was crazy too. But in the face of the threat of destruction, stalin brooded by himself for two or three weeks and came out thinking straight. Turned the army over to him said now we have to be serious. So war teaches societies to be rational. And is, you know if you read i always call him the Fortune Cookie general, sun su, because of his wise sayings. Thats sun sus major lesson be rational. Think straight. Dont be, you know, dont believe in illusions. And thats what societies learn from war. Thats the ultimate lesson of warfare. Host professor ginsburg people listening to this their heads might be exploding saying that you [laughter] are promoting war. Guest i dont promote war. I think war is terrible. However, war is a state of awe fairs in which we affairs in which we find ourselves often. And we have to understand it. We cant simply say its bad, i dont want anything to do with it. It is horrible but for that very reason we have to understand it, and we have to learn from it, and we cant delude ourselves. I know some viewers will be thinking well, what about nonviolent peaceful forms of reis the us dance resistance . And, you know, the answer is there is no such thing. There is no such thing as nonviolation. Nonviolence is a form of disruption. Its lightweight violence, and it only works if youre facing foes who are constrained in their use of violence. Or it works best if you can use your enemys violence against them. Take, for example, dr. Martin luther king who was a tremendous practitioner of civil disobedience, but he understood it for what it was. He learned from gandhi he learned from samuel adams that civil disobedience is a mechanism of goading your opponents into being violent. And once they become violent you can call on your friends to be even more violent against them. So dr. King knew that he could goad sheriff jim clark into behaving violently and stupidly and then the fbi would descend on them. If you dont have friends then you have Tiananmen Square where nonviolence simply results in your death. So we always want to delude ourselves that war is not the answer. It would be good if that was true but, unfortunately, it is. Very often the key answer, the only answer. President obama, i think, when he came into office thought war was not the answer. We were going to have peace. Peace was going to reign throughout earth. Now he seems to be launching drone strikes at everyone. War teaches you, you have to be rational. You cant delude yourself into thinking that if im peaceful oh, everyone will love me, and they will be peaceful too. Its not like that. Now, theres a very interesting book written by a psychologist at Harvard Steven b pinker called the better angels of our character. And pinker tries to show that theres been a decline in violence over the past millennia. Now, his Statistical Analysis is a little odd because you have to leave out world wars i and ii to make the numbers work. [laughter] we wont chastise him for that. Whats interesting is his implicit solution to the problem of war. Now, in thely of philosophy the history of philosophy there are two names associated with ideas about ending war. Theres cont and theres hobbs. Conte proposed the idea of the democratic peace. He noticed that democracies usually didnt go to war against one another. So he said if every cup was a democracy country was a democracy, there would be no more war. That sounds good. Problem is, a lot of them dont want to be democracies. As i recall, iraq didnt want to be a democracy, we had to go to war against it. So democratizing everyone would cause enormous conflict. Hobbs put forward a different idea. He said that if there was one state with a sovereign leviathan, then war would be stamped out. But the problem is that he would have substituted tyranny for war. And as we look around the world, a lot of people seem to prefer violence to tyranny. So the hobbs solution doesnt seem to quite work unless youre willing to succumb to tyranny. So in his view violence diminishes the more pulley that some author fully that some authoritative regime is able to secure peace in a territory. Well its true in a way. What happens then is that violence is kind of internalized. When we have less crime in the society at large we often have more crime in prisons. We, you know, we move the locus of criminal activity. So, you know, violence war, these are with us. We are not angels. We have to learn p learn to control, and we have to learn what they really do. We have to learn what they mean. Host professor ginsburg could an alternative title for your book, the worth of war, be real politic . Guest yes, the way the germans say it [speaking german] yes. It is a work applying, you know the ideas of political realism to another sphere. But my publisher liked the alliteration, with the worth of war, what can i do . Authors just write the words. Yes, its an essay in political realism, thats exactly correct. Host talked about the civil war, what have we learned, what progress have we made from the iraq and afghanistan wars . Guest well, i dont know that we made any progress in engineering. But we have learned from the past several decades of wars in the middle east, wars in Southeast Asia a number of lessons have emerged from this. One is to think flexibly and rationally. But another lesson that we learned and this is perhaps, not such a good lesson governments learned if they want to be free to go to war, they have to factor the citizenry out of the equation. What the government learned from vietnam was that so long as you depend upon citizen soldiers and citizen bill payers, citizens get fed up with the casualties. So starting as you, im sure you know with richard nixon, we created an allvolunteer army the purpose being to create a military force that could be used flexibly, without citizens getting in the way. And i think that, that is whats happened over the past several decades. Notice that our armies in the middle east were armies of professional soldiers recruited very heavily from the south and southwest and from military families. As a result there wasnt much domestic, you know, conflict about the war. People [inaudible] was a bad idea, but no one was up in arms over it. The New York Times would publish its faces of the fallen, but if you and i looked at that list, we seldom saw any face we recognized because this was a professional army not drawn from the chattering classes. So thats what the government learned. If you can fight factor the citizens out, and the drones are, of course, the next step. Because now nobody is fighting. It makes it too easy to go to war, i think is the problem. We dont like to see casualties but we dont want it to be too easy to go to war either. Thats been one of the problems in the United States. You know it started to be too easy to use force. Were too ready to fight. You know, our country has fought more wars than any other country on the face of earth . Were a peaceful people. And one reason is its gotten to be too easy. The president can launch a strike, he can send special operations forces, he can send drones. Thats not a good thing so thats a lesson. Its unfortunate that weve learned that lesson. Host Benjamin Ginsburg first of all, you have a familiar name for those of us in the political world guest i do. Host who follow politics. Guest my name is similar to to [inaudible] who is a very nice fellow and i was once denounced at a meeting of the american Political Science association for my nefarious redistricting schemes, and i said, no, thats not me its the other ben ginsburg. They said, sure. [laughter] host i want to close with this quote from your book, the worth of war. This discussion brings us to the main matter at hand americas burgeoning regime of domestic secrecy and surveillance beginning with the First World War. The u. S. Has undertaken the construction of massive programs of secrecy and surveillance justified by wartime and National Security concerns. These programs, however, have survived every war conflict and National Security emergency and now seem focused on the general American Public posing as we shall see, serious threats to popular freedom. It seems that beating swords into plowshares can produce very dangerous implements. Guest that was very well put, i thought. Yes, thats right. And i believe that this is a very serious issue thats facing us today. You know, the framers of the constitution the authors of the Fourth Amendment some of whom were framers, the authors of the Fourth Amendment which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures, we see that as relating to evidence of crime you know . If you watch law and order, the police are always wondering do we need a search warrant, can we pretend . So we associate the Fourth Amendment with ordinary criminal alaskas. But the framers did not actions. To the framers, the purpose of the Fourth Amendment was protection against royal troops entering a house and seizing papers that could then be used as a basis for a charge of seditious libel. Which was a very common charge that the crown used against its enemies. So the framers wrote the Fourth Amendment to guard against the intrusion and seizure of papers. Not to guard against, you know, misuse of evidence in criminal cases. So this original meaning of the Fourth Amendment has been lost. And today we have a state of affairs in which weve reversed what should be true in a democracy. In a democracy citizens should know a lot about their rulers. And rulers shouldnt know that much about citizens, okay . Citizens should know a lot in order to hold public if officials accountable for their actions. The ancient greeks understood this. There was an annual audit even of priests and piece heses. But if priestesses. But weve reversed this. We have a system of secrecy and classification preventing citizens from knowing everything they should about their rulers. And periodically, you know the secrets will be let out. So we have wikileaks and the snowden revelations. I wonder how many people have actually looked at these revealed materials . I went through the wikileaks materials. There was nothing in there that could damage the United States in any way except to embarrass certain politicians. The wikileaks are filled with gossip. Some cia agent will file a report affirming that Prince Charles is an idiot. Well, okay he probably is. [laughter] thats what the wikileaks [inaudible] i dont think our security was damaged by the revelations. But on the other hand its easily possible for the government to spy on us as we have now discovered. And i would say that people say, oh, there are many safeguards. I have nothing to hide, so what do i care . But thats dangerous thinking. Our governments history in this regard is not a good one. It goes back to the First World War with the black chamber which wrote telegrams and then, of course weed had j. Edgar hoover and nixon. If the government has the capacity to read our mail, our emails, listen to our phone calls, the temptation to abuse that capacity is great. And, again if we were all angels and our Public Officials were angels [inaudible] but James Madison no less an authority than James Madison said if men were angels we wouldnt need government. Its because men are not angels that we have to have safeguards in place. Host Benjamin Ginsburg is the author, hes a Johns Hopkins university Political Science professor. Weve been talking to him about his most recent book hes written about 20 the worth of war. Youre watching booktv on cspan2. [inaudible conversations] booktv is live today from Savannah Georgia, at their annual book festival. Our live coverage will continue shortly. [inaudible conversations] heres a look at some of the upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country let us know about book fairs and festivals in your area, and well be happy to add them to our list. Email us at booktv cspan. Org. So i didnt know that there was such a thing as segregated buses, you know 20 years ago mostly because there werent really. There wasnt really such a thing as segregated buses so i tell a story in the book about how in 1994 when my daughter whos now an officer in the army, but when she was a toddler, we accidentally found ourselves on a segregated bus. I didnt know it was segregated until i got onto the bus and shes sleeping on my shoulder, and, you know the guy in the front seat, this young guy, 20something guy with a black hat and a beard and a white shirt, it was saturday night, you know he gets up for me, and he says, oh, sit down because there i was, a young mother with a baby on my shoulder. And as soon as he gets up the guy next to him, this older guy must have been like in his 60s, he had a white beard he looks at him, and he goes [laughter] like that. Like no. So this poor kid, you know hes like 23 years old. He looks at me with the baby on my shoulder, and he looks at the guy next to him and he looks at me, the guy, and hes in this bind. And finally he looks at me, and he goes, you know like what am i going to do . And he sits back down. And then i go all the way to the back and find a seat in the back. That was like, my First Experience. I didnt know that existed. The truth is it wasnt official. I think back to that story and i think that it was sort of a moment of cultural transition meaning that the guys, the young mans sort of ambivalence represented a shift within his own culture. He sort of was in this place where he thought that it was okay for a woman, you know to sit there but the rules around him were changing. Well, you know the experience we had yeah. Was that the women some of the women when we sat in the front, came down from the back of the bus and sat down and asked us in hebrew what we were doing and why. Right. They themselves were wondering whats going on. The men some of them put up their hats and refused to they came on the bus and refuse to sit down next to us, is so they had to go to the back of the bus. Its not unusual for women to be gatekeepers of the patriarchy. Its the Phyllis Schlaflys of the world. A lot of places women take that role, were going to preserve the gender order for lots of reasons. There are women for whom, you know, the gender the gender inequality that we have is sort of comfortable and safe and whats known to them. Undoing all that could be, is, you know scary or threatening for whatever reason. Yeah. So sometimes the women are even more vehement in, oh, no we cant make change. You can watch this and other programs online at booktv. Org. Joining us now on booktv is the author of republic of imagination. Where did this come from . Well it came from as soon as i finished my last book, my last chapter on tehran i kept thinking of the ordeal of democracy, that freedom itself is also an ordeal and that, in fact totalitarian societies could be mirroring the best and the worst in societies like ours. And as ray bradbury says, you know, you dont have to burn books to kill a culture just get people not to read them. And thats what i think was happening here. So i thought i wrote a book with a question, can a democracy survive without a democratic imagination . You can guess my answer to this. [laughter] well your subtitle is america in three books. What are those three books . Well actually, it is more than three books because i begin with wizard of oz which was the first book i heard about. So i got to the imaginary map of america for me was kansas. And it is with James Baldwin who i feel is the true progeny of mark twain. But it begins with Mark Twains Huckleberry Finn goes into [inaudible] and then carson mccarters the heart is a lonely hunter, ending with [inaudible] how do you tie those books together, and how do they make america or money or success. But like huck finn deciding that it is better to go to hell but do the right thing. It makes me uncomfortable. I now love america enough to make it my home, so i have to start complaining. But isnt division and argument, isnt that good for a democracy . Argument and debate is great for democracy. Ideology is very, very fatal to democracy because, you know, ideology makes you feel very comfortable. We all belong to the white house, the one that is [inaudible] and the rest belong to the black hats, you know . We dont even watch the news channel that disagrees with us. A democracy is vital. When you confront and challenge and accept that you should also be challenged, you should also be questioned. In huck finn in each of these Great American novels we have a democracy of voices where even the villain has a voice, you know . And it goes through understanding and not condemnation. So i think ideology and utilitarianism that is ruling over America Today is very dangerous to health of our to the health of our country. How did reading lolita change your life . Well, you know, it changed my life in the sense i always doubt and question myself. I never thought that book would be successful, and honest to god, you should listen to my editor. I used to tell her this book is not going to sell more than 9,000 copies. But the whole point about the success of that book, it made me understand that readers are not stupid, that you should not underestimate them and that they want to know, and the only thing it gave me it gave me the opportunity to connect to people i wanted to be connected to. And that is the most important thing. And that is readers. You know . So that is my take on [inaudible] this is booktv on cspan2 and weve been talking with author azar nafisi the republic of imagination is her most recent book. And now beginning from savannah, this years savannah book festival, Donald Miller talking about his latest book, supreme city. Its a look at prohibitionera manhattan. Youre watching booktv on cspan2, live coverage of the savannah book festival. [inaudible conversations] good afternoon, and i just want you to know be youve been here before, this is the last time im going to remind you that its happy valentines day book lovers. My name is chris aiken and im delighted to welcome you to the eighth annual savannah book festival and to thank the 2015 presenting sponsors, Georgia Power and bob and jean faircloth. We are blessed once again to host such celebrated authors at Trinity United Methodist church a beautiful historic venue made possible by the generous city of the International Paper generosity of the Savannah Morning News and the v. A. Nana magazine. And we would also like to thank booktv for coming to the festival and filming live here today. Id like to also send some love its valentines day, after all to our literary members and individual donors who make Saturdays Free events possible. If you would like to shower the book festival in your affection, we welcome your donations and have provided yellow buckets at the door as you exit. Before we get standarded, please started please make sure your cell phone is turned off and, please, no flash photography. And for the question and answer portion, we ask you to come down here and line up right in front of the month so you can speak through the mic, and the tv can hear you well. If youre planning to attend the closing address with ann and Christopher Rice tomorrow, the correct time for the presentation is 3 00 at the trustees theater. Immediately following this presentation, Donald Miller will be signing festivalpurchased copies of his book in Telfair Square. We are especially grateful to jerry and jan [inaudible] and preston and Barbara Russell for their generous support of this amps author. Afternoons author. Donald l. Miller is one of the most respected authorities on u. S. History and world war ii. He has authored nine books. His recent publication supreme city how jazz age manhattan gave birth to modern america, hones in on five key moments that turned the 19 to 1920s manhattan into a commercial and cultural epicenter. He is a professor of history at Lafayette College ands has hosted, coproduced or served as historical consultant for more than 30 tv documentaries. His pbs program earned a peabody award for excellence. Close to savannahs heart is his bestselling book, masters of the air americas bomber boys who fought the air war against nazi germany. Miller writes the riveting history of the american 8th air force, the mighty 8th during world war ii. He serves on the board of the trustees for the National Museum of the mighty 8th air force in savannah. Ladies and gentlemen, Donald Miller. [applause] thank you. Its been a long time since ive been in church. [laughter] its yeah. Its great to be back in savannah. I want to clear up a little misconception. By the way, i get to savannah a lot, and this is just a terrific terrific place. Did a lot of my research for masters of the air at the 8th air force museum. Weve been interviewing veterans out there recently. Tom hanks and Steve Spielberg bought the book, and were making a tenpart hbo dramatic series on it, and we just finished the scripts an hour ago. [laughter] we have to present them to tom hanks this week. So everybodys a little nervous. [applause] so lest i be accused of false advertising, i noticed live on booktv, Donald Miller on jazz. Well not quite. While i love jazz and Duke Elington is one of the major characters in my book i write about jazzage new york. And jazz age, of course, is a term that was coined by name the decade coined by f. Scott fitzgerald to capture the Propulsive Energy of the 1920s. And i take one part of the 20s midtown manhattan. And although its been 20some days since book was published it kind of feels like 20some years. Because ive entered the new world. Im writing another book and this is a civil war saga set in 1863 in vicksburg mississippi. And when you do that you go outside that world building the characters, the characters who in turn fashion that world, and youre in there with them. You decide who gets into the world. Youre noah. You decide who gets on the ark what animal. And then when youre finished, its a sad thing actually, to finish a book. Because you leave that all behind. And you can never really enter that world again in the same way you once entered it. As a builder of world, as a creator of the world. All you can do is enter, as the reader does, as a visitor. And that can be exciting but not for the author. I tend to kind of dump it when its done. Because you have to. You have to be totally immersed many your new world. And for the in your new world. And for the reader, it can be a very exciting experience because everything you see in this world is new hopefully, and hopefully exciting and has pull to it. But, sadly the writer cant enter that world in the same way. So i would, i could never go back and reread i i never have one of my own works. But i hope today i can do justice to the book that i spent so long writing. Its not the book. This happens a lot in the writing community, its not the book that a i set out to write. That i set out to write. Originally big, grand idea. I was going to do new york end of world war i to the beginning of world war ii, boom and bust and do all five boroughs, all of new york city. But then, as so often happens in writing, not long into the research i was drawn to another topic. And a story, be you will if you will within the larger story. And that was the story of the sudden and rather spectacular emergence of midtown in the 1920s as the epicenter of new york city. Now, you have to understand that for 300 years Lower Manhattan dominated new york city almost was new york city to the world. Then in the 20s there was this sudden eruption of midtown. And to give you a sense in 1919 there was not a single skyscraper north of 47th street. Nine years later, half of new yorks skyscrapers are in midtown. A new building goes up in midtown every 57 minutes in the 20s. So this is one of and i dont exaggerate i think one of the great citybuilding decades in all of history. And its a process that is accompanied by and i deal with the building boom, i deal with the architecture, i deal with the people who built the buildings and i deal the with the workers who constructed the build, some of them mohawk indians and i deal with the cultural revolution that accompanied it that created in a sense, helped to create modern america. For me, the 20s and for my students, i think the 20s are exciting because we start to recognize ourselves in the 20s. Its hard for me to envision having a conversation with jane adams who would be entrancing and wonderful and things like that, but i can see sitting and having a conversation with f. Scott fitzgerald somewhere in a cafe here in savannah. Hes a modern person. And the 20s is a modern decade. Its when we became, if you will recognizable. So it was an exciting period to deal with. And the book all books have a kind of a spine to them. You have of to have something to hold it together. Some people call these things tropes. I never knew what that meant. But for me, it was the year 1927. And, of course, in that year david of sarnov founded nbc the First National Radio Network and a guy named fred french built the first terrifically tall building. It still stands on fifth avenue north of 42nd street. 27, of course is the year of Charles Lindberghs flight from new york to paris and his return and the parade they had for him in new york. Four Million People show up for this parade. Its a fantastic time. Fitzgerald perhaps captured it best. He writes this in that year, he says, the tempo of the city changed, it changed sharply. The parties were bigger, the morals were looser the liquor was cheaper. The jazz age raced along under its own power, served by great filling stations full of money. Man, i wish i could have written that. [laughter] so new york was in the vanguard of transformations that would make the 20th century the american p century. You have you have the rise of commercial radio, you have the rise of tabloid journalism, you have the invention of television, you have the spread through radio and records of this pulsating urban music called jazz with armstrong and ellington. You have the emergence of spectator sports where 100, 120,000 people show up for a prize fight. 59,000 come to yankee stadium. It just had never happened before. And its i try the tell this story through a series of biographies. And there are about three dozen major characters, and i have a cast of characters at the front of the book. Most of them and i should say this too, one of the great challenges that every writer faces when you start to create these characters and incidents is connecting [inaudible] well thats a q a and im going to leave a lot of time for the q a. Somebody throw a, fire a spitball at me, you know when you get tired of this. Maybe we could talk about writing as a process, how you put together books. We have a lot of authors who could join the conversation. But my characters are the makers and shapers of this world that ive talked about. And most of them are from west of the hudson and east of the danube. Theyre outsiders. Theyre not native new yorkers. And ask about halfway through the book and this often happens with writers i kind of realized what i was writing. I red rah a read a passage from one of my favorite writers, e. B. White. And he wrote a classic called here is new york. And he writes this its the person who was born elsewhere and came to new york in quest for something that accounts for new yorks highstrung disposition, its poetical deportment its dedication to the arts and its incomparable achievements. And that in a great quote there [inaudible] i think captures the zeitgeist in my book. He wrote that every american is eaten up with a long immediate to rise. And that is long need to rise. And that is what this book is about. I teach American History. So often in American History, all the kids learn in the classroom is about expectation. And, for example well read in my class on urban history Upton Sinclairs the jungle, and thats a human meat grinder where the meat is cut up, and so are the humans. And books like that have to be written. But whats missing from that book and missing from so many classrooms, i think, is, well, did anybody ever get out of this place . Did anybody ever rise above these circumstances . Yes, they did. They crawled out of that place. A lot of them. Including people from my own family. I come from a family of Railroad Workers and coal miners in northeastern pennsylvania. My people called out. Crawled out. But the point is how they made it is hugely hugely interesting and hugely important. Its thes process of how its the process of how we became the country we are, okay . And so a lot of the book deals with people who are very successful, but it takes you from the time when they were hugely unsuccessful and shows you how they did it. Both Common People just trying to make it into the working class and get some recognition from dire poverty or people who rose rocketlike to the top in 10 or 15 years, people like david sarnov. Well, so my characters come into new york fresh. They plant their flags, and they try to to refashion this citys economy and its culture and its like a hegalian dialectic. They change new york, new york changes them. As jack dempsey once said, the boxer, he came into new york about 126 pounds and got the hell beat out of him first time he fought in new york city and nobody recognized him nobody wrote about him. He said i finally figured out something about new york. You might want new york, but new york has to want you. Steinbeck had the same experience before he wrote grapes of wrath. He tried and tried and tried and he said it wasnt the city it was me. And until i was able to cope with its energy and had some iraq in addition of my some reck misof my own recognition of my own could i live in new york in a settled way. And he did. So a lot of these characters in the book as i i said came from nothing. Sarnov comes from a belarusian village thats so backwards its medieval. He hadnt seen a ship or anything that moved that wasnt pulled by a horse until he was 11 years old and came to new york with his mother. One of the characters the tex ritter a big boxing promoter in the 20s. Hes a saloon keeper from the canadian klondike, actually. He built modern Madison Square garden. And he taught boxing promoters a lasting lesson that every successful fight has to be built around a big story. I got into this book, and i like boxing, but i really liked writing about box. And, actually boxing. And, actually with i thought good writers liked boxing hemingway, mailer. Guess who was the best . Be joyce carol oates. A fantastic book on boxing. And she does the great dempsey in that as well. And, of course, hes rickers meal ticket. Hes a hard hitter from the Western Mountain country, he turns boxing into a Million Dollar industry. 5 million gates at new york city and promoted the next Million Dollar gate is ali frazier. Babe ruth from the baltimore dock yards, he turns baseball from small ball bunt and hit and run things like that, into long ball. And like dempsey, hes a slugger. Kind of strange, theres lou gehrig, born in new york, columbia lou theres gene tunney who beat t the great dempsey, a native new yorker from greenwich village, it was always the big hitters, the outsiders, the ruths and the dempseys who captured the crowds. Others came in with a lot of money. Joejoe paterson from chicago, hes a breakaway. A onetime socialist, the rebel in the family. He comes to new york city in 1919, and he found the daily news on a shoe string. Six years later its the bestselling newspaper in the world, not just in new york city, and new yorkers are learning about sports and movie characters and Everything Else in a new way and reading it in a new way. And the tabloids, of course have never gotten away. And what i tried to do with these characters and this is important, i think, for the story knowing the future, knowing whats going the happen can be a tremendous liability for a writer of history. Because then you slant your whole story toward that. If i write the story on the 20s knowing that the depressions on the horizon, the whole story becomes a prelude to the depression. But nobody in the 20s knew the depression was coming. David mccullough sr. Always reminds me that the most inaccurate phrase in the english language is the foreseeable future. The future cant be foreseen, okay . So i think what good historians and good historians are good storytellers. They have to get behind the characters eyes and see the world the way they did. In the 20s, it was blue skies forever. And thats the way it was seen by the characters. And so you take away so much of your story, so much of the contingency, so much of the excitement when you take away their decision making, when you take away unless you take it to spot where theyre making the decision and theres this way to go and that way to go and its a choice and a difficult choice, then you start to understand. Then you achieve whatever your story tries to achieve; empathy not sympathy. Empathy. So it seemed absolutely unimaginable to new yorkers that that in the midst of this boom and with a mayor like stylish popular jimmy walker that this new york would crumble into depression and walker himself would be brought down and forced to resign by Franklin Roosevelt for charges of corruption. Nobody could foresee that. Nobody could see that. Now, although great parts of my book are devoted to baseball boxing and proto hix i prohibition, i wanted to today talk about what i think is the central drama of the book, this building of sudden eruption of modern midtown. Now, the story really gips and it is like a once upon a time thing it begins with completion of Grand Central terminal used to be Grand Central station. And that was finished in 1913. Second largest project at the time next to panama canal. And that project was set in motion by a disaster a train crash. All of new york at that time on the east side from 42nd street to 56th street was a big, smoky rail yard. There was no crossstreet. The grid was gone, it was just a rail yard. And the only way you could get across was on these iron cat walks. Smoke, swirling soot and Everything Else. And train terminals that led into that rail yard. He goes even further than that. He takes this this place of swirling smoke and ash and eliminates it, and he builds a roof over his electrified trains and on the roof theres nothing, from 42nd street to 56th street. Looked like a parking lot. And what he does is he sells the land and the air rights thats a new thing at the time to developers and within seven years, eight years after that you have modern park avenue. Almost exactly the way it looks today. Straight as a sunbeam as Ella Fitzgerald said in a wonderful piece she wrote. Zelda has gatsby coming out of Grand Central and then down park avenue in a wonderful wonderful piece, that her husband stole and put under his name but we know she wrote it. So with revenue plucked from the air he builds on the whole area an old railroad station an spire new city called terminal city. All the aover to the east river. A number of residents this is how things Work Together and how they connect. A number of the new residents on park avenue and what theyre building on park avenue are highrise apartments skyscrapers. People had never in the history of the world lived that high before. The residents of the old park after knew were vanderbilts. It was called vanderbilt alley, and from 42nd street central park each side of the street was lined with terrifically large and ugly vanderbilt mansions, and most of them are just empty of any life. The widows survive. The millionaires are dead. Their children are gone, and not enough irish made maids in the city to staff them. So they sell to tremendously aggressive young jewish realer toes from the ghetto on the east side. The minute the realtors buy the buildings and mansions, including the largest one in the world, they tear them down and build modern fifth avenue. Bergdahl, saks fifth avenue from herald square, and adam gimble turns it into a great merchandize march, and you have the transformation in midtown. Another vanderbilt, ann vanderbilt, moves to the river, place called sutton place. One of the mose exclusive places in new york city. And she generality tried it. She and her sexual partner, ann morgan, they move in and turn the place around, and women are such a big part of my book. The queens of upper fifth avenue where heleny rubenstein and although they had shops blocks from each other, they hate one another. The other one reuben stein, and even though theyre the salons are so close arguably they never talked to each other the buyer time theyre in new york city, but theyre great stories. Arden is a Canadian Farmers daughter. Started in new york has a hairdresser. Reubenstein, the daughter of a polish kerosene dealer. Both of them 15 years later are not million areas. Theyre billionaires. Now, before the 1920s, only fast women wore powder and paint, makeup. Now, with the movies, you have to come in with the closeups, clara bell and have to put on eye shadow, girls start to wear and it it becomes like smoking badge of independence. And the beauty business becomes huge. In fact americans in 1927 spent more on Beauty Products than they did on electricity. Thats how big the business is. So, its a different world. And theres this is one of the fun things about writing a book like that. You get to explore and find these new worlds that you thought werent there and existed. I was walking through sutton place, and i stumbled upon i cant believe id never been there tudor city, which is only a fivemint walk from Grand Central terminal along the east river. Build by a guy named fred french, build the first skyscraper on fifth avenue. A selfcontained community for me middle class in the heart of midtown manhattan, and a good look at affordable living living in manhattan at a golf course, and i had never heard of fred french. I had read the novel underworld and the to characters, a mother and tower, walk into the lobby of the fred french building. You couldnt do that today. David mccullough worked in the fred french building. And the mother says to the daughter, who in the world is fred french . So i got in the car and went to new york and i found the building. And the lobby is spectacular, and the building is a classic art deco building. It had beautiful setbacks. And fred french turned out to be an absolutely entransing character. He looked like a babbot. He is americans are buying stocks in the 20s, buying stocks in his construction company, and after he builds the skyscraper, he goes and walks regularly in new york city and discovers this identity lated spot at the end of 42nd street and says im goal to build an affordable place nor middle class in opposition to park avenue. And he does it. He is 2007 the titanic figures of the 1920s one of the wonder men of new york city. Theres a lot of these kind of people in new york city. Just go to the cluster of building around 42 until street put up in the 1920s, you can start with the Chrysler Building, for example. Now, Everybody Knows what a chrysler is, okay . Would of my editors didnt know there was a person walter chrysler. Walter chrysler came from the kansas plains. His father was a locomotive engineer and he was an oil boy, oiling machines in a rail shop when he was 11 years old. And went to college. Got a job with General Motors, thought the new age, the auto age, and in 1928, after he introduces the first car in his name the chrysler 6 he decides he is going to build the tallest building in the world and announces it in the new york newspaper. Everyes watching him. Buys a plot where the Chrysler Building is today. The same day he makes that announcement, group of hustlers speculators, from downtown start to build the building called 40 wall. And that is now trump building, and 40 wall, and its people 40 wall people announce theyre going to build the tallest building in the world. So the sky race for two years in new york city between chrysler and 40 wall. And in 1929, just before the crash, all the new york newspapers named the winner 4 , wall. The building is finished and taller then the Chrysler Building. The chrysler wasnt going to be beaten. He is unstoppable. He builds in the cone of the building at the top inside the building, inside the tower, he has his engineers build something a long steel needle called the vertex, 147 feet long. And then one day nobody knows exactly what day it was historians tell you they do. Theyre wrong. No knows. He raises the thing into the sky and at 10,064 feet the Chrysler Building is suddenly the tallest building the tallest structure you have to figure in the eiffel tower. He wanted to beat that. Its the tallest structure in the world. He wins the race but loses 11 months later when the Empire State Building goes up. So, this is these are the kind of stories thats what im interest. Ow 77 story building. The thinks he is the top of the world and is bested by somebody. Thats kind of new york city. And its i think that building what i try to do in the book is i try to talk about the people behind the building who put it up. There is the tower, and it is hot jazz in stone and steel. Its a near perfect i think, representation of what i think of midtown manhattan its speed, style, romantic excess. Lit up at night. The architect, william van allen. Nobody knows who he is. He built it with the the trim with new material that is steel that doesnt rust and in inside he had the artist build you can see this the lobby is all fixed up recently made over he built this wonderful mural to the workers. Not the architects but the workers who put up the structure. Its new yorks commanding testimony to those Blue Collar Workers who put up its art deco towers. Now, right across the street from the Chrysler Building is a building again i had never paid any attention to, the Shannon Building which at the time was the Third Largest building in new york. You walk in there and i had the same feeling. Who iser win shannon. Well its Still Standing a 66 story tower. Its not lit up like it used to be. People from new jersey described it as like an island floating in the sky in the 1920s. And chanon was in broadway. He sold hole cities theater, and he came out of nowhere and he is 1919, he is the son of a ukrainian family from brooklyn who went back to the home country, tried to make it here, and then came back to the United States. He is jobless, veteran, broke. Ten years later is a multimillionaire builder. Times describes him as a master of the midtown skyline and is being touted with fred french as one of the wonder men of new york estimate when you go in the lobby, right there is a c. City of opportunity, and he describes the building is autobiographical. Mumford used to say explore cities and you can read them like you can read the pages of a book by reading their architecture. Every stone has a tongue. Every tongue tells a story. Buildings are the concentrated expressions of a civilization. And they can be told in scene almost autobiographical, and he is using chanon how to make it in new york city. So buildings do have lives, and so by 1930, now we go to the culture revolution by 1930 new yorkers are calling 42nd 42nd street the valley of giants. The daily news building, the chrysler, the Lincoln Building things like that. And its a new new york. All been just Railroad Yard and some boarding houses, a schaffer brewery and a piano factory. So its a whole new world. And when you go tall in cities this is new yorks problem today its going very, very tall, and they dont have the Transportation System to support the population massing thats going to result when this recent skyscraper revolution has reached the climax. Its just not going to happen. But new york in the 10920s built big everywhere and started building to move people. They built a sixth avenue subway, just like the third of any subway. They built the gw bridge. Two months after the gw bridge they break ground on the gw bridge the holland tunnel is finished. Thats the first vehicular tunnel of that length in the entire world. Who knows who Clifford Holland is . I have no idea who he was. One day i asked a guy in a toll booth. He says, hey, jack look behind the booth. Theres a bust of him. I said who the hell is going to see that . Thats Clifford Holland. A young engineer out of harvard, came down, had an idea. People now how to build tunnels. Penn station is an example. But nobody knew how to clean the gasses, the Carbon Monoxide gasses out of tunnels. So most of the engineers at the time said just drive big fans drive the bad air out. And holland says spouse you have a fire. Youll have a holocaust with the opinion blowing like that. So he says we have to tame the wind. If youre in new york today, theres four buildings one in the river, one out of the river, and one in the river on the jersey side one out of the river, inconspicuous looking. They look like venetian blinds. You open the blind, in comes the wind. Its a wind factory, then the winds speed it up. With gigantic dynamos and then the wind is tamed. Its taken down underground shot into the tunnel right at hub cap level. The only place to feel it. And then bad air is sucked out of the building, and the air is changed in the tunnel every 90 seconds. And thats how every vehicular tunnel in the world is built today. And thats how the lincoln tunnel is built, et cetera, et cetera, and at the same time this is an era of herculean engineering achievement. The brooklyn bridge, and the gw. The first bridge to cross right at Washingtons Crossing when he was escaping the british, to cross the river. And a guy id hardly known about built it. When you pull away from it what really captures you is the thinness of the deck, and ammann, swiss immigrant, didnt know if it could handle the loads it would be subjected toespecially at commuter time. But it did, and its one of the most beautiful bridges in the world. He was interviewed at the end of his life. He built every major bridge in new york after that culminating in the verranzano bridge, the last bridge built in new york city. He would pass the bridge and bow his head every time he passed it. And while all the construction is going on its like it reminded me of building a medieval cathedral, which were urban spectacles which people came to see in new york when youre throwing up the frame of a skyscraper where the birds dont fly. This aptlike looking men are working on the steel frames, and people would come urban theater. People would come with binoculars to watch them. Sky boys they called them. And a lot of the sky boys were mohawk indians who came from a reservation of the st. Lawrence river on the other side of the canadian border, and they commuted and lived in brooklyn. They came here on the subway, and they threw up those things. And a lot of people in the paper are claiming the mohawks are genetically coded to handle height. Thats just racist. Its a dangerous occupation but its a learned experience, and theres dont forget, see the pictures. A lot of times when i do my talks in new york we cant do this in the chapel but you should see the images of these guys. Working without safety harnesses, without hard hats. Theyre working up there without boards, so if a flaming rivet falls to the ground it can put a hole in a persons head. Highly dangerous work. Ironworkers suffered one violent death only average for a every 33 hours on the job and one guy said to me we dont die, we are killed. A lot of these guys were at the site of the World Trade Center building another building when those two planes went into the trade center and i interviewed them after that and that was of course, something never, ever to be forgotten. But the despite the danger, these guys almost how die say it almost embraced the danger because they come from a culture, the mohawk culture, where the women are in charge and the women run the village. Theyre the big decisionmakers mohawk wives todays forbidden to touch heir husbands work belts or tools. Theyre symbols of sexuality. And especially the bolt belt which sits right over the mans crop. So its a way of enhancing their sense of selfesteem, and another ironworker told me, were makers of new york were building the mountains of new york city, and so they are. So i try to slip down in the book and take on these kind of people as well, people who are struggling at the bottom. Dock workers in the greatest harbor in new york city, horribly exploited italian and jewish girls working the Garment Industry, which is moving uptown, close to the fashion center, fifth avenue and on, what is renamed seventh avenue, fashion avenue. And i take you to the last part of new york, second to last part of new york ill deal with here, and thats hells kitchen. Its been general gentrified. When i was doing prohibition issue thought who are the big gangs in the biggest gangster in new york was bill dui. Bill dwyer. He was not in the encyclopedia. And neither is any madden who ran new york in those years and big bill dwyer is a former chelsea longshoreman. He joins up with a guy named frank costello, later a big mafia figure, and they join up with an irishman from london named owny madden used to me called openy the killer. Prohibition gives these little guys smalltime hoods, an opportunity to form what became a multiMillion Dollar syndicate with oceangoing vessels and airplanes to scout for coast guard patrols. They had an arsenal of lawyers, paid off the new york police, paid off the u. S. Coast guard in washington dc ask they were into the government of new york city through a ganymede jimmy hines, a big honcho. And historians run away from crime. They dont like to deal with it. Criminals dont write letters. Theres no documents or manuscripts. Its hard to construct it. But i went down to the new york archives one day and asked ted cobb, the director. I said do you have a Lucky Luciano paper. He says nobody ever asked for them. We got them. I came the next day, went to my desk and i thought they delivered a washer and a drier, and the first thing i found was a lamp with a cord on itan evidence cord, with an evidence label on it, somebody got strangled with it. In there also, in addition to revolvers, are testimony after testimony after testimony, confessions 0 mobsters. You know the idea of not squealing on your brothers . Bullshit. Doesnt happen. These guys told everything. And new york had fabulous crime reporters who were interest these guys. People like Walter Winchell who knew everything they were doing. So great reporters, great documentation, you can talk to them. Also interviewed some sons of gangsters, ernie madden becomes one of the major characters in my book. The best written section of the book. But lastly, only two blocks from the Garment Center three blocks from hells kitchen, is times square. Now, that was always the great white way but 42nd street below times square or what used to be called long acres square, the area north of that is developed in the 1920s, and its not the great white way because its technicolor, and the signs the advertising signs, move. You see beer bottles and officers pea rivers of peanuts, it was called a conspiracy against the night. Some writers say you could see the faces of human beings clearly across the street at midnight. So this is a whole new broadway and guess what . Legitimate theater is where it is today because of what happened in the 20s. All the pig movie theaters come in silent movies start making it big and theyre building huge theaters. Roxie built a theater somebody jokingly said the largest theater since the fall of rome. 5,500 people. Five stories high. You can run 16, 17 shows a day in there. Double features and things like that. A legitimate theater cant compete with that. So the movies drive all of the small theaters, legitimate theaters to where they are to the side streets of man hat d manhattan, and the premiere becomes a new york city event. They make them the hollywood but to make them go they have to make them in new york city. This guy, rockefeller is a fantastically interesting character. He comes into new york fresh. He is the son of a jewish peddler from minnesota. He joins the marine corps, fights in china, comes back and starts selling magazines in the pennsylvania coal regions around strand ton. Falls in love with the owners daughter of a hot dog stand. The owner tells him okay, he stuck around for a while, a Minor League Baseball player in scranton. Stuck around for a while and the owner said you want to marry my daughter you have to work in the bar for a year help notices theres an empty room in the back. Thats the community, slavic and italian miners, i can see my family in there raising hell. In the back room they would have parties but thaw true the place up. So roxie decides he walks in the snow gets a coup of reels of film buys a projector, gets the seats drops the sheet gets the seats from a local funeral home thats a problem because if theres a viewing no movie. And he is showing these films. He is a presenter. Long story but five years later, he is the biggest movie guy in new york city because they could never get enough people in these theaters with didnt make enough good silent films to fill the theater. So they had the prologues and he would do a prologue. A orchestra ballet dancers you name it. Animals on stage. And the prologue became more important than the movie. As lowle says we dont sell tickets to movies, we sell tickets to theaters and that was roxie, then roxie during the pro log they give him the microphone and the starts to interpret what is going on stage. People love him. And then roxie has the first variety show on. [radio] ow. 1926, nbc is founded. He puts roxies radio show, his variety show on the air and its the most popular show in radio history up to that point. So again, strugglers, making it like this. And finally, theres a guy named florence signaturefield. He was a carney hustler. His father was a musician but he ran away with the wild west show. Couldnt be tamed. So he runs an act the strong e man in the world and then chicago society, women come in and feel his muscles for a dime. Sore sordid beginning. He had the dancing ducks of denmark, and the ducks would dance on the stage and the society for prevention of cruelty to animals came in and shut them down and found out theyre dancing on this metal thing and its heated below. So, but of course he comes in and creates the follies. And theres a sensation. People say theyre stilted sexist, but everybody went to them. And then in 192, a master of entertain hits it big with play nobody expected to come out of his mind. And showboat changed American Theater as much as bill paleey, a great rival, changed radio. Its the first play where the songs come directly out of the plot. Its the first play ever to have a mixed cast. Half white and half black. And its the first play ever to deal seriously with a racial issue. In this case misogyny. And it was a sensation, and we all know hold man river. And it changed his career. That year 19271928 thats how seasons run in the theater world, and he had five big hits on broadway five big hits, and he transformed American Theater as a result of this. But he also, like so many characters, fred french so many characters died broke. Because its the old sense of the greek term, your greatest strength is sometimes your greatest weakness. He was a gambler. Gambling on everything, gambled on plays and everything and he threw everything into the stock market and the bad lays and with the stock market crash he goes down and a lot of others go down with him. But before that happened, new york has one stunning absolutely stunning moment. From washington, dc, comes into new york in 23 and doesnt make and it goes home. And comes back and makes it in scrubby little clubs run by gangsters called the kentucky club. The hustling agent finds him. The agent said everybody hated me. I did nothing his is his term he said they all told me this is the guy that does nigger music. Well, all of a sudden he finds ellington and theres an opening at a place called the cotton club. And its designed by joseph irvin, who designed theaters in new york city. And lincoln does an audition and he is signed up. Problem. He was scheduled to appear the next night in philadelphia. A traveling show. So madden called one of his mob bosses in philadelphia and said pay this guy robinson who runs the show visit. So the gunman pays him a visit and says get bigger or be dead. He says what does he mean . He said sending ellington to new york city, and he says im ready to get back. That night ellington and the bad were playing at the cotton club and new york history changed and the countrys history changedded and ellingtons music goes out to not just the country but the world. And people are comparing him to mozart. He is writhing weight the critics call hot jazz, and the duke says, no im writing negro folk music. And one night, another of my characters, bill paley and his wife walk and the club, harling hear ellington and they sign him up and out goes his music to san diego, duluth new york city, and new york starts to transform the whole country, the style of music buildings, the works. Thanks a lot. Appreciate it. [applause] if anyone has any questions please feel free to come up to the front and speak clearly into the mic. I would like for you toll us about the publisher who signed up f. Scott fitzgerald oh, yes horace. We dont know about. Another the book has lot of facets to it, a lot of characters and all of midtown is all of new york is moving uptown in the 1920s. The Garment Industry moves from the lower east side. Up to 7th avenue and so does the Publishing Industry and the Publishing Industry needs to be near agents, magazines et cetera, talent. And a whole series of young publishers comes on the scene and challenge the old guard. Most of the old publishers are jew rich, richmond simon, meets a guy named schuster. Glad for those guys. Bennett cerf, who founds random house. Young, aggressive jewish publishers and livewrighters who name is not well known today, is the most tremendously exciting of all of them. He is a gambler like zig field and lost it all in the crash. But liveright had the Publishing Business moved up to 6th 6th avenue, above rock center. They buy these brownstones in the bootlegging section of the night club section of new york city and any one given day this is a guy who drank himself to death probably more bootleggers in there than authors, but being a gambler like he said, with this sense of strength and weakness, he gambled on writers and publishes oneill when oneill is a nothing help publishes faulkner when falkner hadnt published yet help pushes hemingways first book. He publishes classics. He publishes strtsky and he believes in hollywood style advertising. Sherwood anderson said, going with liveright was living right. You get on the subway and you reside see your name up there in the subway, see your name in banners and billboards across new york city. I once gave a talk on this with my publishers in the front. And they dont believe in advertising. I dont know what they believe in now. How you sell books. Im really looking forward to reading your book two questions, first is, youre so enthusiastic about your characters that you call them, how do you edit because you could go on forever. And second if you were having a dinner party which three of them would you have for dinner because you seem to they seem to alive and theyre so exciting. Two questions. I would definitely have here his liveright, and just because it would be such a crazy juxtaposition, id have david ssarnov, so sober and strong and worried about his rivals having sarnov in the room would be great. He starts as a telegraph boy running errands and sending flowers and candy to marconi who came to new york. He took chocolates and all kinds of flowers to his guard around the city. Eight years later he is head of rca, and then he is a lucky one. The day before the stock market crashed in 29 he withdraws all his funds. It wasnt financial acumen. Just a hunch. A hunch. Luck. And so they would be interesting. Ive had this woman texasgyn unanimous, who ran the nightclubs in new york city. The queen of the night clubs and beat all the federal agents in new york city. They couldnt close her township also proved that not all american women were against prohibition and she battled the law, and she is a gutsy woman who, when she left her nightclub, she didnt drink or smoke. She was a devout catholic. Went home at 4 00 in the morning, stopped off the church, go home, get slight, and with the father and brother they count the earnings. She is a sharp business woman, and reporters would come to her for the latest gossip because everything seemed to happen in her salons as she called them in her nightclubs, and her favorite personality was one of my favorite jimmy walker, the stylish, whip smart mayor of new york city who was brought low by corruption. Not that he robbed the city. But he took money from friends to live the kind of life he seemed to have to live, the high life to be in miami to be in hatch van have van havana. I trike to take his biography from an neck dote to analysis because there hasnt been a good buyography on walker. He cared near mentally ill, pushed hard for immigration tried to bring women into city hall. And he was funny and really smart him would bounce around from italian spaghetti dinners to swedish whiskey festivals. One time he came into a jewish event, fundraiser, and came in with a yarmulke on, and somebody screamed jimmy circumcision next . He said, no madam, i prefer to wear it off. He was crazy. He had a hangover room in city hall. Show up at 12 00. The nighttime mayor. He and guinan that would be the forsome. We would have a wonderful time. Dont have anyplace go to tonight. I wish they were around. With a topic like this where theres no logical boundaries would you describe briefly your Research Strategy and your writing methodology . Well, you start out and then the last question i didnt answer her question, how do you curtail this. You have to stop somewhere, and ill give you a classic example. Luce the foundser of Time Magazine but its an ohio operation. They had to have started something brand new in new york this is the idea. They have to have started something new and something that really spread fast or they had to have been under the thumb of some powerful forces that were too oppressive to overcome leak the garment workers. Im trying to write something very difficult and i dont know if it pulled it off. My mentor called it holistic history. You good to a high point in the city dish went to the top of rock center just as i start mid chicago book by going to the top of the hancock center. You see the city hall and try to understand how all the parts connect. A city is an organism and at the like mumford said you go down to the street level and start to explore it, and you explore it on foot and he had the expression, by living we learn. Stay out of the library first. Get into the city first hand. And thats how i found these characters. French chanon, chrysler and essentially what wanted to do was i thought i knew new york. I taught at city university, at the Graduate Center at 42nd 42nd street in the middle of this thing. But i didnt really know it. I finally found. And i thought, im going to tell a story about a new york that everybody thinks they know but dont know. And im getting these wonderful letters from people who are longtime new yorkers lifelong new yorkers, who are telling me theyre seeing the city in a new way. And any writer in the room knows this. When you get a reader that says youve gotten them to see something they thought was familiar in a new way you have been somewhat successful, and thats how you trim it. Thanks. [applause] thank you so much. If youd like to meet mr. Milner person and have him sign your book you may head straight to the authors signing tent. And thank you again for joining us for the eighth null savannah book festival. We hope to see you tomorrow at our closing, a conversation with ann and Christopher Rice at 3 00 in the trustee theater. Thank you. [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] this program is part of the savannah book festival. For more information visit savannah book festival. Org. [inaudible conversations] booktv is on twitter and facebook and we want to hear from you. Tweet us, twitter. Com slash book tv or comment on facebook. Com slash booktv. Russ roberts talks about adam smiths take on human nature and his writings on the pursuit of happiness. This is about 50 minutes. Thank you. Its great to be back in st. Louis and to see so many old friends. That porch star is a true story. Fictionalize it it a little bit but i thought it was a good example of personality responsibility and learning about risk and danger. Im talking about adam smith. Adam smith is probably the second best thing to come out of scotland. The first isnt golf. But you may know about his famous book, which is the wealth of nations. You may know he was a free trader and you may have heard of the invisible hand. What i want to talk about tonight is smiths other book, called the theory of moral sentiments. Maybe the greatest selfhelp book you have never read. What i try to do in my book holiday how adam smith can change your life is give you a window smiths psychology, economics, and apply them to modern life. What i want to do tonight is give you an idea of what adam smith can teach us about ourselves and the world around us. I want to start with a story. I was in london last week its been this year for sure. And it was kind of a whirlwind trip. Never been in london before, and i gave a talk at a place called the Royal Society of arts. The Royal Society of arts is very old. Used to be called Something Like the Royal Society for encouraging manufacturing the arts and commerce and enough its just called the Royal Society of
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